obviously, and what we've been seeing in charlotte the last few nights. jack henderson, councilman in oklahoma, we appreciate the time. charges being filed against the officer in tulsa. that will do it for this hour. "mtp daily" starts right now. if it's thursday, police shootings in tulsa and charlotte collide head on with the presidential campaign. tonight donald trump embraces stop and frisk while calling for racial unity. >> how can we lead when we can't even control our own cities? >> plus, how trump's campaign is responding to questions about his foundation spending. and new numbers show hillary clinton is inspiring new hope than president obama with one new group of important voters. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now.

good thursday evening. i'm chuck todd here in washington. welcome to "mtp daily." we welcome tonight of what sadly has been a familiar scene these days. two men of color lost their lives at the hands of police this week. moments ago the tulsa district attorney filed first-degree manslaughter charges against the officer who shot terence crutcher. in charlotte, they're reporting that according to one of their sources, a man who was shot during last night's protest there when they turned violent, that person has died. governor curry has called out the national guard and the city of charlotte is declaring a state of emergency. the question keeps coming um nobody seems to have answers for. why does this keep happening and can it be stopped to the point where trust can be rebuilt between law enforcement and the

african-american community. they've had very different views of how to go about community policing between our candidates. >> we are safer when communities respect the police and police respect communities. i've also been privileged to spend a lot of time with mothers who have lost children and young people who feel that as far as their country is concerned, their lives seem disposable. we've got to do better. >> we are supposed to be the world's leader. how can we lead when we can't even control our own cities? look at the example that we had in new york of mare ruyor rudy giuliani. the policies he put in place ultimately broke down crime by 76% and murder in new york by 84%. >> one policy that donald trump is pointing to is the

controversial stop and frisk policy that trump himself has long been in favor of, and so has rudy giuliani, but it was a major source of tension between the police and african-american residents in new york city. trump yesterday proposed reviving the polarizing practice. he tried clarifying intentions this morning in an interview with fox news. >> rudy giuliani did a great job as mayor. they really straightened things out with stop and frisk. but stop and frisk worked. we had tremendous shootings, numbers of shootings. now, chicago is out of control. i was really referring to chicago as stop and frisk. >> the attorney general loretta lynch reacted as well today. >> the tragic events in charlotte and in tulsa, oklahoma earlier this week once again have underscored the decisions that persist between law enforcement officers and the communities that we serve, particularly communities of color. too many times we've allowed ourselves to be pulled down the easy path of blame and

accusation rather than the harder path of empathy and understanding. >> now, the issue of bias is now being acknowledged by a majority of americans, white and black. an nbc news survey monkey we conducted in july said 77% of all voters said there is a serious problem with racial discrimination against blacks in this country. that is where the consensus ends. these voters were split whether the use of deadly force by police was affected by race. president obama launch aid task force on 21st century policing in 2014. but how far can progress go when there are fundamental disagreements on where the problems exist? the distrust isn't going to go away with a magic wand. the images of clashes with police become more vivid and more frequent, and they're more than ever thanks to technology. these images of cops and these

images of african-americans holding up their hands and not being threatening, it is becoming engrained. think of the fire hoses and dogs on protesters that were used in the '60s. the images are very vivid and it's clearly something the entire country believes is unacceptable. but why hasn't all this passion turned into a series of real solutions? joining me now with some analysis, dmitri roberts. he's a former chicago police officer and georgetown prefer michael eric dyson as well. mr. roberts, let me start with you. it seems as if on one hand there is plenty of attention to this problem. but the more attention that has been brought to it -- this is in a case where the more attention has focused everybody on finding the right solution. we seem to be struggling to find any solution. >> well, it's my opinion that the reason we struggle to find solutions is because folks feel like they need to be on one side

of this issue or the other. just because someone add voluntary cat -- advocates for black lives matter doesn't mean they're not behind police. those who are for people of color, we can build a bridge and we have something so stand behind as sustainable solutions. >> michael, it does feel as if -- think about the last two years. you and i have had this conversation multiple times, and we've seen these glyebbs and fl, and there's a lot of concentration a, we'on, we've g solve this problem, and then we go a couple months without an incident, and bang, it comes back, and there just seems to be no momentum here. >> look, i respect my articulate

colleague there on a very powerful point, but i'm sorry. we are beyond the point of drawing an equivalence between police people who show up armed with the force and authority of the state and a gun and a badge, and citizens who are unarmed and don't have that authority. this is not a matter of equivalency. this is a greater responsibility attached to those who are sworn to uphold the law, to serve and protect. somehow what we have done is failed to impress upon them that the mere presence of an african-american person does not automatically constitute a threat. we are dealing with implicit bias. even if a black cop shoots a black person, that implicit bias is operating in most of our unconscienc unconsciences. the point is we have to get to a point where we're able to tell the truth. most americans understand that racial discrimination against african-american people is real. what we have to do on the other hand is figure out a way to train these police not to react so violently and viciously.

look, you can be a white guy with a cleaver, the police will arrest you. you can be a terrorist in a shootout, the police will preserve your life. you can be a guy who kills nine people in a church and they will retrieve you without incident. why isn't that african-american people unarmed for the most part have a real trouble with the police of being able to be securely treated and treated, i think, with a deep and profound respect. until we address that, we're going to have this again and again. >> mr. roberts, that's what i hear the most from african-american activists on this is that last part of what michael eric dyson just said. why is it -- we just had an example now. he brought up the terrorist suspect currently in new jersey right now. he's alive. and that's what eats at this more than anything. >> it's a lack of cultural competency in the communities for which police officers are going to serve. and to michael's point, i was a former chicago police officer who worked in some of the

toughest neighborhoods in our country. but before that, i was a black man who also got beat up by white cops. i get both sides of these issues. my point has always been, as it continues to be, we have to address the cultural differences. there is a law enforcement problem with culture in this country. until we address that law enforcement culture issue and merge that with cultural competency around the communities for which those officers are going to work in, we're going to continue to see these situations escalate to violence and further, more killing of black and brown members of communities. cultural competency is the way to get these things resolved and resolved in a very quick manner. >> michael, it does seem as if there is plenty of jurisdictions that have put in some reforms where you've seen positive results. the tragedy in dallas that took place a couple months ago, it was an extra tragedy for a lot of people down there because you had a police chief that

instituted some newer reforms that were making real progress. >> there is no question about that. look, i spoke to that police department about six to eight months before they endured that horrible tragedy that they experienced. let me tell you something, chuck, that's not often spoken about as dmitri just indicated. when i spoke to many of those african-american sergeants, lieutenants and captains, do you know what they told me? out of uniform, we are just as afraid of white cops as you are, number one. number two, they are the immediate and first recipients of racial discrimination. we forget that there are many bigoted people on police forces that mistreat fellow officers before they go into the larger world and create mayhem for other people. so we're not being honest about the culture of complicity with the police. not simply in its hair trigger reaction to black and brown people but to the very violent racism that operates even within police forces themselves. so you're right, there are many things that can be done and instituted, but unless we're willing to say them

straightforwardly and be open and honest, unless the department of justice is willing to say that and the president, too, we won't make much progress. >> mr. roberts, why hasn't there been accepted best practices adopted by not just big police forces -- i feel as though the big city police forces, for the most part, they were the first ones that made it where the police force made it look like the community they were policing. but we also seem to have an issue with a lot of police forces where maybe perhaps the training is less rigorous. how do we make this where you up the training across the board? >> well, it has to be holistic approach to these issues. diversity, inclusion and emersion. training workshops. where you bring training members into training at officers with cultural differences. when you have a community member, young adult millennial, that goes to the police academy

and stands before them and tells their story and then tells their expectations of their police officers who come to serve their communities, give them that training, give them that cultural awareness sensitivity, you're going to see police officers who join the police department to make a difference, you're going to see them engaging those communities much differently. again, i'm not saying biases aren't at play here. but the solution at getting past those biases is building the competencies necessary both in our police agencies as well as our communities. >> but in charlotte itself they have a black police captain. they have the black policeman who shot this young man and the young man who was shot is black. some will argue, there is enough competency there, but it victimizes not only predominant members of the dominant culture, but also those who are latino or african-american themselves. it leads us to believe that a black person is more apt to

commit a crime than anybody else. >> culture doesn't have a color. regardless of what color those officers are, if they're standing behind antiquated policies that doesn't address the community and doesn't address the issues between the law enforcement agencies and the communities, we're going to continue to see these issues regardless of what color the officers are, because at the end of the day, those officers all wear the same color unified. and that's the color blue. >> all right, guys -- >> the people who were affected, white communities in a culture are not being targeted in the same way that african-american and latino ones are. but i know we'll take that conversation up. >> i was going to say i'm going to let you guys pause this conversation. i will pick it up later in the show. thank you both for coming on and sharing your views. now, matt bye, and nbc senior political reporter perry bacon. perry, you and i had that quick conversation before the show

started that it feels as if all the politics have run out of things to say. all the people that we turn to to come up with some sort of euunifying solution, they've al kind of run out of things to say. >> this is a real hard issue. we were two years into addressing, after ferguson, two years into addressing a problem that had taken decades to develop. disregard of blacks and the police, there's videos now, awareness is higher than ever. >> that is a form of progress here on this issue. there is white awareness now of this issue. there used to not be white awareness. >> there is a lot more white awareness, particularly in young people. i think there have been some changes. tulsa, the officer was already indicted for manslaughter. in north carolina, they are already there. i do think things are happening faster. >> april, i can't imagine it's going to be all of a sudden

people say, okay. we know there might be some more bad apples, but for the most part, we're finding a solution. i can't imagine we're going to get to that point in the next couple years. it just doesn't feel that way. >> you know, it's an evolution for everything. you hit the nail squarely when you said white people are now saying it. before, people thought it was myth and conjecture that african-americans were talking about it, but now that component, that video piece, those smartphones, the battery life of these phones to be able to film these things, and you see the truth. what happened in tulsa was real. to hear someone say, yeah, he's a bad dude, you know, that within itself, you can have all the video that you want, but there's a heart issue there. it's about legislation. you can legislate, you can have all the pattern and practice, results and findings and change, but if the heart is not lined up, there is something wrong. there is legislation and then there's the heart. >> you know, matt, you were telling me about how you've done

ride-alon ride-alongs. >> i covered law enforcement for a while. >> it sort of struck me as i was processing what you were telling me, you know, there are some police officers if all you're doing is working in the highest crime areas, you're always going to feel as if you're under siege all the time. so you almost wonder, it's not just the training, but do the cops themselves need to not -- almost need to rotate? i don't know, is there a rotation? because you do feel there is a hardening here, a belief of what you're dealing with. >> i think the first thing you have to acknowledge, maybe not the first thing, but it's not just simply a bias issue. you have black officers shooting black perpetrators. you have black victims and black perpetrators. i think one of the things you have to consider is this comes from a place of fear and bad training and incompetence. politicians can't fix that, right? law enforcement has to fix that through training. >> i have to respectfully

disagree. let's go back to a standard -- the washington standard, the "washington post." they have data from last year. and they compilated all the people who were killed in police custody or police-involved deaths last year. the vast majority of those who died were african-american, and they were not at the hands of black police officers. i mean, what do you say to what happened at tulsa with the gentleman in the helicopter? i don't even want to call him a gentleman. the officer in the helicopter had to say? that was a white man saying this about an african-american. >> april, i'm sorry, it is not denying there is a racial component here to say there is also complexity involved. >> oh, there's complexity. and complexion. >> i appreciate what you said about the role of technology. this is new. anyone who covers crime knows this just went on and it

disproportionately affected african-americans. the twist is now people are held accountable. also i think technology is part of what brings it to justice, and the body cameras are holding officers on the ground while they're there as part of the solution. >> but they're not required by police to be worn. >> this is where it becomes a national -- a policy thing, because how do we level off -- i'm sorry, granted, this was a big city, but i feel there are more incidents that are suburban police departments. and we know if you can't get into the big city one, sometimes it's easier to become a cop in a smaller town. >> policing is very local. >> as it should be. >> i'm not sure about that. maybe if we had more national standards in terms of use of force standards. hillary has talked about some of

this stuff. this is a political discussion we're ahaving, though. >> we are going to have a little bit more of this conversation but i do need to sneak in a break. we're going to delve into the presidential debate a little bit. trump's money trouble. the campaign is having a tough time refuting reports about the trump foundation's spending habits. stay tuned.

welcome back. there are a slew of new polls from the battleground today. quinnipiac has trump leading by seven points. outside of their margin of error on that one, georgia is one of the states clinton was hoping she could flip and make a little more competitive. right now, though, trump has a durable lead. iowa. trump on top also 7 points, plus 7 in another fox news poll as well. monmouth poll last week had trump up eight points, maybe the most likely obama state for trump to take this time around.

iowa has been a real problem for clinton. different story in colorado. clinton with a narrow 44 lead. trump was up four points in this quinnipiac poll last month. six points for quinnipiac and a roanoke poll has clinton up 7. she has led or virtually tied in every poll. the "new york times." trump and clinton tied at 41. north carolina is a must-win for trump at this point. no path for him without north carolina. and florida, trump up a point. average of regional polls has clinton and trump in an absolute dead heat. up next, a look into the trump foundation, and donald trump's history of spending other people's money. back after this.

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just four days until the big debate, and people are concerned about trump's business dealings. the "washington post" came out that trump used his charity, right now paid for by mostly other people's money, that trump used it to pay for tax settlements. some call that blatant, example of self-dealing. the trump campaign is responding, although they seem a bit stumped as to how to respond. first came a campaign statement saying, the "washington post" story was wrong and peppered with inaccuracieinaccuracies, b not correct a single act in the story. then we heard from mike pence on the same story. >> there are a number of fact wag errors in that story. >> do you know what the factual

errors are that the campaign is alleging in that story? >> i think the foundation will be able to lay those out. >> well, the foundation has not yet laid those out, but we have heard from trump on this. >> can you explain to people why you may have used some charitable donations for personal uses? >> the foundation is there and it gives money to vets and it's really been doing a good job. i think we put that to sleep just by putting out the last report. >> we're not sure what report trump is referring to. we did ask the campaign, have not heard back on this one. the story fits what appears to be a pattern for trump. it's not just his charity. trump's campaign which solicits funds from a variety of donors has made mill yonions for trump inc. this appears to be how trump does business whether it's done in tax breaks and grants. and it's also a dangerous mix of

politics and profits when you're in the midst of running for president and it raises only more questions with fewer answers. i'm joined now by pulitzer prize-winning author danny tantaglio. he's the author of "never enough, pursuit of success." i want to start with the foundation story. because while it was a new allegation against him that he used foundation money to pay trump a legal settlement which has -- is potentially totally illegal unless he comes up with a way to fund his foundation, it somehow fits a pattern of his where he's shrewd about using as little or no money as possible. >> it is, and i think the bottom line for trump has been his bottom line, so profit is the measure of what is right or wrong. this guy doesn't have a moral

measure for his activity, and he doesn't really think much about the ethics of something. if he can declare bankruptcy four times and leave his creditors in the lurch, if he can walk away from small busine businesspeople in atlantic city and not pay them what they're due, he'll do it because the benefit accrues to him. one of the funny elements of this charity case is that he built this giant flagpositivele palm beach where it was about a hundred feet too high and against the city code, and he had to pay a fine for doing this. i actually think this is a politically motivated thought that he had. it was, well, let me be the guy that puts up the american flag and then gets in trouble and then fights the battled government about the american flag, and then when i have to pay a fine, i'll have my charity pay for me. this is just ridiculous. he gets away with it with the voters who support him because they like the fact that he's so

clever. >> well, i was just going to say, and he brags about it. i mean, this was a quote in fortune magazine in 2000. he said, it's very possible i could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it. you know, it's sort of the a bragado krir bragadocious thing to say, and i don't think he's making money on this campaign but he's definitely making sure he's not spending much money. >> right. he had a pseudo campaign in 2007, and i think that was one of the instances where someone did make money by pretending to run for president because he generated all sorts of free publicity by jetting up to new hampshire and giving a speech. he could say, look, i'm running for president, come cover me. by the way, i've got this new book coming out. before you know it, he's got a giant best-seller and he never ran for president in the end after all.

>> he's not alone on that front. there are plenty of people who have run for president, used their loss to become a vacuum of speaking fees, getting on tv shows, things like that. i go to this because this other part that sort of makes me curious about using other people's money is all the tax breaks. how important has tax breaks been to building his financial empire? >> oh, he's had almost a billion dollars in special tax breaks so it's not unusual for real estate developers in big cities to take advantage of special tax breaks to get their projects built. but he's been the champion of this, and he learned it from his dad, and he's been very successful at it. so you and i have financed donald trump's success. >> all right. michael dantonio who literally wrote the book on trump. always a pleasure. thanks so much. >> thanks, chuck.

hillary clinton expands her vote on trump with one latino group. how latino voters are expanding their vote. can she expand in other parts of her coalition? stay tuned. people get anxious and my office gets flooded with calls. so many things can go wrong. it's my worst nightmare. every second that power is out, my city's at risk. siemens digital grid manages and reroutes power, so service can be restored within seconds. priority number one is keeping those lights on. it takes ingenuity to defeat the monsters that live in the dark. ...stop clicking around...travel sites to find a better price... the lowest prices on our hotels are always at hilton.com. so pay less and get more only at hilton.com.

he's a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot. sage. donald trump is a phony, a fraud. he's not a serious adult. i can't vote for donald trump given the things that he said. trump should not be supported. i believe he's disqualified himself to be president. i just cannot support donald trump.

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much more ahead on mtp daily including an exclusive first look at a telemundo/wall stre"wt

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last night we brought you brand new wall street journal poll numbers. we have more numbers from that poll and there is good news for hillary clinton here with a latino sample. in our telemundo we make sure we

can have a large latino number overall so we have a better idea of the latino vote than what you get in the national poll. just among latinos, clinton sits at 63% with registered hispanic voters. trump is 46% behind her, sitting at 16%. gary johnson at 9, jill stein at 3. take a look at this. clinton is even going better with latino voters than president obama did around this same time in 2012. but there is an enthusiasm gap among latinos. 60% of all voters say they're very interested in this election. that number among latino voters is just 49%. and among latino voters under the age of 40, just 38% call themselves very interested in this election. so there is a turnout scare here if you're hillary clinton. the numbers look good on top, but will there be the raw vote there? let me bring in my guest to help break down this poll, and

president of latino partnership for conservative principles. no surprise, probably, at the numbers here. anything jump out at you, alfonso, as part of the overall, or is it what you thought? >> in terms of donald trump, the numbers are terrible for him, but frankly, i don't think he cares. i think after that speech in phoenix, we can all agree he really doesn't care about the latino vote. the question, and i think you alluded to it, is there enough enthusiasm within the latino community, latino voters in favor of hillary clinton? and i think the numbers actually lead us to question if there is the enthusiasm. i mean, if you look at -- >> i think part of the challenge is twofold. you're seeing a generational divide when older latinos who actually remember days of prosperity under hillary clinton and you have the millennial generation who don't have that experience, which they were very much sold on bernie sanders. what the hillary clinton campaign needs to do is reach

out to them and talk about the policies. >> this is the one voting group in anything we've really found in the obama coalition where she's doing better than him. in every other case, he does better than her. his 2012 numbers are better here, but she is winning latinos by 51 points. the exit polls in 2012, obama won by 44. how much of this is really donald trump? >> i think a lot of it has to do with donald trump, but part of it is the older generation, which i would actually say are the ones planning on voting. they have -- they remember that history of prosperity. they were oftentimes first-time homebuyers, they were able to send their kids to college. again, the millennials are having that challenge and hilla hillary's challenge is to say, look, that platform that bernie sanders said he would do if he was in office, he would. if you look at the fact that jill stein and gary johnson are pulling numbers, i would venture to get they're pulling numbers from her, not from donald trump. >> you know what's interesting about those numbers, alfonso,

for johnson and stein, they were getting the same number of latinos than the overall population. there was no difference. there is really that same chunk of voters, clearly. >> i don't think the latino voter exists in a vacuum. obviously they care about the same issues of the general voting community, but i think the numbers are very interesting. when you do have the four candidates, hillary clinton goes down to 65%. there are about 11% willing to vote for gary johnson and jill stein. the other number is 17% of latino voters had a positive perspective of hillary clinton. it's not a supermajority. and then finally when you look at latinos who think that they're very interested in the election, only 49% of the latino millennia millennials. >> this was a recent poll that came out. only 60% of registered latino

voters have been contacted by a political party. >> that's what i wanted to ask you before. there seems to be -- there's been some criticism that the clinton campaign has not done the out reach of turning the clinton vote. >> it basically solidified california with the anti-immigrant. that's the only reason you have now in the state castle cof cal two top folks in the senate fighting for democrats. most campaigns, they only need that 51 plus 1% in order to win, rather than using this opportunity to solidify the progressive movement. they're really not doing that. >> you're going to be part of this rebuilding the party, i assume, for them after this. how do you prevent this from

becoming what she said, a pete wilson moment? >> because i think you have to understand the latino vote is not a monolithic vote. >> it wasn't a monolithic vote pre pete wilson. then it became one. >> you can't generalize and say what happened in california will happen at the national level. remember, before pete wilson we had george bush who won about 25% of the latino voting -- >> within the latino community, we're no longer talking about poli policy. what we're talking about is kids coming home and basically saying, my classmates are telling me i'm going to get deported. it's a completely different calculus when you are knocking on someone's door and saying -- >> immigration is not a top issue. it's an important issue for the latino community but it's not a top issue. in polling it shows poll after poll, latinos do not identify as

democrats. there are many issues in which they don't agree with the democrats. donald trump is having an impact, and he's having it right now this this election. >> but he's not having a conversation on policy issues. the reason latinos are not open and welcoming to donald trump is basically he's making their communities less safe, less comfortable. as a parent, all of a sudden, if you could be third or fourth generation saying, wait a minute -- >> if you have a republican party and republican candidate four years from now that engages the latino community, and is constructive on the immigration issue, they're going to be competitive. >> last, quick question to you, alfonso, which is, is this a four-year repair job, eight years, ten years after this? what kind of damage do you think trump has done? >> i think it's momentary, it's right now in this election. four years from now if we have a good candidate who engages the community, who is good on

structure, it will be good. >> thank you both. now and up next, will protests ramp up on the football field starting tonight and perhaps sunday? as protests continue on the streets of charlotte following another police-involved shooting. stay tuned. know that thinkorswim seamlessly syncs across all your devices, right? oh, so my custom studies will go with me? anywhere you want to go! the market's hot! sync your platform on any device with thinkorswim. only at td ameritrade

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politics. the biggest story in the country are the police shootings in oklahoma and charlotte, north carolina and the violent demonstration that took place in charlotte last night. and the biggest sport in the country is, of course, nfl football. put it all together and you might have a combustible mix. as you know, colin kaepernick has been at the forefront of people with color by refusing to stand for the national anthem. it began in the pre-season and soon other nfl players began to follow suit. then this week we saw every member of the wnba's favor take a knee during the anthem last week. in soccer, they did the same at a game in columbus. now with the protests in charlotte, don't be surprised if the protest grows exponentially this week in the nfl. perhaps tonight starting with the new england patriots and the houston texans. next week 14 games are scheduled. keep in mind, if the

demonstrations are big enough, there will be no avoiding the subject durling ting the presid debate one day later. what started as a lonely protest by a quarterback could turn into a national event for the weekend by sunday. we'll be right back. [sfx: phone vibrating multiple times] i'm there. [sfx: tires screeching]

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maple bourbon caramel. that's what we're working on right now. from design through production, siemens technology helps manufacturers meet critical deadlines. i think this'll be our biggest flavor yet. when you only have one shot, you need a whole lot of ingenuity. time now for "the lid." panel is back. matt bai, april ryan, perry bacon. what's been interesting is what normally would be a frozen presidential race right now, because we would be in the middle of debate prep, and certainly, you get some evidence that they are, this issue is overshadowing debate prep, i think, what's going on in charlotte and in tulsa right now. and it's filling the vacuum of the presidential race and making it all in one, i think. >> and you had, i figure it's because of what happened on saturday and sunday, the special for this week would be about terrorism. and instead, we've already moved on to another discussion already, and one i would say where the candidates have very defined views, very different

views. so trump is kind of making it up. he's for stop and frisk, now in chicago, he's trying to figure out where exactly. he's a general point of view in this, but the tulsa comments were unusual for trump. they were unusually kind of the issue a little bit more. he's moving, i think. >> it is interesting, april, he seems to be in almost conflict with himself. on one hand, he's getting strategy and advice that says, you've got to soften your rhetoric, soften your rhetoric. on the other hand, tough on crime has been a focal point of his candidacy. >> and going back to sympatheom he is doing debate prep, from what i understand, as well as hillary, but when it comes to this issue, we heard donald trump, the primary candidate donald trump talk about supporting police. and if anyone went after is police, they would be -- there would be large punishments, stiff punishments against them. and it seemed more like an either/or scenario when he was talking, when he was the primary donald trump. but now, it's totally different.

you know, to hear his rhetoric, talking about what happened in tulsa, and talking about how he did everything right, you know, the guy in tulsa, he complied. he complied. and for donald trump to say that normally he's this guy who is about police, and not only that, just a few weeks ago in baltimore, he stood in front of the national guard association convention, and he was talking about, you have a friend in me. and when you think of the national guard, especially with this kind of situation, they're the ones that come in when there's lawlessness. there has been a direct change in donald trump's conversations over this issue in just the last couple of days. >> and yet, matt, if you remember that convention speech, it was a law and order speech. and that was -- >> a grim march to the barracks. >> it was and he was trying to use -- he was trying to sort of make sure people saw the images of -- at the time, it was baton rouge baton rouge and dallas. and those were the images he wanted to engrain while you were

listening. and you can tell he's struggling with this. >> i called the theme of the night, america's one big swamp hole, the theme of that night. i think it's a big missed opportunity for him. it's not for him, african-american vote. he can talk about it all he wants. that's not going to happen. but he does really need to change his numbers with college-educated white voters, who republicans always carry, and he is not carrying. he can't win without that. and part of that is moderating this image. part of that is presenting a different kind of republican and a different kind of donald trump. and i think he, actually, that's been his instinct lately, and i think he would step that. he really is in the grip, in the thrall on this issue of rudy giuliani and to an extent, chris christie, who are most rooted in those policies. >> it seems as if attaching yourself to rudy giuliani in 2004 on an issue like this would

have been politically seen as smart, perry. i don't know if it is right now. rudy himself is pretty polarizing. >> rudy is very polarizing. i don't know national stop and frisk, i'm not sure even trump's voters are for that. it was an odd position to take. >> i know a lot of second amendment voters who are thinking, whoa, stop and frisk, what do you mean? >> i don't think he's in a good place right now. but i think in some ways, the debate's interesting, but what you previewed on sunday is even more interesting. kaepernick, you've seen a lot of black football players, black basketball players have done this. i would be interested on sunday if we've seen a few more white players who have been more reluctant to get involved in this. the video is indisputable. and this is a big issue. i'm not surprised blacks are there. i wonder if the athletes broaden out. >> i'm hearing a lot of chatter about different protest ideas. you hear various chatter on what kind of impact do you think it should have? >> what kind of impact it should have is the fact that people watch and see and they understand that this is a

problem, there needs to be a solution. there needs to be change. you know, we've heard from people like congressman john lewis, who's talked about a solution, saying, you know, community policing. we heard that from the justice department and also from that -- the study that the president had, 21st century policing, community policing, suggestion, okay? we also heard from the homeland security head, jeh johnson, who said, community policing. and jeh johnson also said to me, the day of the dallas memorial, we were in -- i was in his office, and i interviewed him. he said, you know, when there is a breach between the community and later, it is a national security issue. and that it really -- it's real, because you don't have trust. and how can you ask someone, if you see something, say something. >> by the way, another universal theme here, trust. the broken trust in so many aspects of our lives, so many different demographic groups are feeling this broken trust. we'll be back with one more story you might have missed. stay tuned.

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well, in case you missed it, on a slightly lighter node knott, here's a dead pan hillary clinton ton "between two ferns." >> how does president obama like his coffee? like himself? weak? >> you know, zach, those are really out of date questions. you need to get out more. >> what happens if you become pregnant?

are we going to be stuck with tim kaine for nine months? how does this work? >> i could send you some pamphlets that might help you understand. >> well, her delivery was fairly reminiscent of president obama's appearance in 2014. clinton is struggling to bring back the obama youth coalition, so we know there might be a lot more of zack galafanakis to help out. that's it for us. "with all due respect" starts now. it is t-minus four days until the first presidential debate and one major story is dominating the national news. the tumult in charlotte, north carolina. the tar heel state's largest city endured a second night of violent protests after the police shooting of an african-american man, keith lamont scott on tuesday. today, charlotte's chief of police said that the video of