are we going to be stuck with tim kaichb for nine months, how does this work. >> i could send you some pamphlets. >> it was fairly disappearance of president obama's a city on edge and a nation divided. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews who is in ireland to receive an award. meanwhile, charlotte, north carolina, is bracing for violence tonight. the national guard has arrived to try to prevent what would be a third consecutive night of unrest in the wake of the police-involved shooting of 43-year-old keith lamont scott.

demonstrations spiraled out of control around 8:00 p.m. last night. riot police deployed tear gas as protesters vandalized and looted stores. one man died late today after he was shot last night outside the omni hotel in charlotte. the city's police chief said this morning that they are trying to determine who carried out that shooting. meanwhile, the governor of north carolina declaring a state of emergency. he deployed the national guard and this afternoon attorney general loretta lynch pleadeded for restraint announcing she was sending the justice department to the city. >> the department of justice is sending four members of our community relations service to charlotte. but i urge those responsible for bringing violence to these demonstrations to stop. because you're drowning out the voices of commitment and change and you're ushering more city leaders are investigating the circumstances surrounding tuesday's shooting of keith lamont scott.

police say that scott did not heed their calls to drop a gun and while scott's family insists that he wasn't carrying a firearm, a witness's photograph obtained by wcnc television appears to show a gun at scott's feet moments after the incident. police verified the gun in the photo is the gun they found at the scene. police are also reviewing videos that captured the incident, which have not been made public. police chief kerr putny described those videos today. >> the video does not give me absolute definitive visual evidence that would confirm that a person is pointing a gun. when taken in the totality of all of the other evidence, it supports what we've heard and the version of the truth that we gave about the circumstances that happened, that led to the death of mr. scott. >> and nbc news now confirms that the scott family has seen the video of the shooting, this

just in the last few hours, but they would not say whether it supports the police account of what happened. meanwhile the officer involved in the tulsa, oklahoma shooting of terence crutcher was charged late today with first-degree manslaughter. i'm joined now by dr. william barber with the naacp. thanks for taking a few minutes. so the central dispute right now, the central factual dispute between the police in north carolina -- the police in charlotte and the family of the man here who was shot involves whether he had that gun. the family said, no, he had a book. the police chief is adamant he had a gun. based on what you've seen, that includes that picture that we just showed, based on what the police chief has said down there, is what the police saying, is it at least plausible to you that that version could be correct? >> well, i met with more than 50 clergy today, diverse clergy, who have been involved in the protests, and 99.9% of the protesters have been nonviolent protesters for justice.

those who have been violent have been a part of provocateurs, but the unrest is because there's been no transparency. what we need is not a military state, but a transparent state. the video could tell this. we understand from the police chief that there were video cameras on body cameras that were off. we know that three possible scenarios -- there was a gun, there was not a gun, the gun was planted, and there was something between the officers that caused that. number two, there was a gun, but he had the right to carry a gun. you have to understand that north carolina is an open carry state. you can carry open. if he had one, didn't mean he didn't have a right to carry. and the third is that our man was shot, who brandished it at the police in a violent way. we don't know which one of those scenarios are true, and the only way we can know that is through full transparency. that's why the ncaap are calling for the take place to be released. they're public tapes. we disagree with our governor

who has fostered and passed a bill that goes into effect october 1, that disallows the ability to release tapes. and we're calling for an independent investigation, both state and federal. that's what needs to happen in order to have a sense of trust and transparency in the city of charlotte. >> the police chief has said his main objection to putting the tape out there is he said, for -- from the standpoint of the family here, from the standpoint of the family, he said, he doesn't want them to have to relive their worst moment as a family over and over in public, he says that's what the video would do. what we know tonight is that the family got an opportunity with their lawyers to view this video. the lawyers would not commit at their press conference this afternoon whether they'd make a statement after that. they haven't so far. if the family were to come out now and say, you know, upon reflection, upon consideration, we would prefer this not to be released, would you go along with that? >> well, i don't think that's the issue, would we go along with?

we've already heard reports, with the lawyers contradicting what the police chief and the narrative has been giving out. the first day, there was a gunman. now it's inconclusive. the reality is, across america, we know that where there is -- tends to be video, there tends to be a different reaction. in tulsa, for instance, we had a video, it's out, there's been an indictment, there's been a very different response. the reality is, we need to be able to see these videos, we need to know what is happening in this particular situation. remember, this is a city where a few years ago, jonathan pharrell was killed, a young college student who got in an accident, was asking for help. he was shot unarmed. later on, the officer was indicted, was prosecuted, but there was a hung jury. and there's been no attempt to re-try, in fact, claim that the jury had spoken. there's a lot of distrust. and in this area, where we have all of these cell phones and videos and different pictures,

we need the evidence to be out there, so that there can be some sense of transparency and we must have independent state and federal investigations. >> and the story obviously reverberating far outside north carolina politically at the height of this campaign season. the presidential candidates are reacting to the police-involved shootings in charlotte and tulsa, as well. donald trump who yesterday said that the officer responsible for the shooting death of terence crutcher might have choked and received pushback after making that statement, the pushback coming from the police union that endorsed him last week. the fraternal order of police reminding trump last week that he must be mindful of the due process rights of innocence including police officers. trump who has touted law and order reacted to the scenes out of charlotte with the call for a national anti-crime agenda. >> how c we lead when we can't even control our own cities. our job is not to make life more

comfortable for the violent disrupter, but to make life more comfortable if the african-american parent. >> more law enforcement, more community engagement, more the effective policing is what our country needs and we need it quickly. >> reverend, donald trump has said he is trying to reach out to black voters. this is part of that effort. what's your reaction to what you're hearing from him this week? >> there's so much hypocrisy and insult in what donald trump said. he is a man who has enflamed racial tension, applauded members of his rallies, who have actually hit african-americans. he has joined in this narrative that somehow, to be against racial injustice and against racism engaged by police is to, in fact, be anti-police, when, in fact, the black community and the white community that is also marching with black lives matter and the naacp and the latino is not anti-police, we're anti-bad police. in fact, good police are anti-bad police, because it makes it bad for all good police. remember, his campaign started

talking about overturning the 14th amendment. when he reaches out to the black community, he doesn't say the things in front of the black community he says in front of the white community. for instance, in front of the white community, he questioned the birth of the president. he didn't do that in front of the black audience. in front of the white community, he talks about rolling back obamacare, but in front of the black community, he doesn't they will them that that means that 3 million black people will lose their health insurance. in front of the white community, he talks about public education and vouchers. in front of the black community, he doesn't say that that will lead to more poverty schools and resegregated schools. he is exactly the wrong one, based on what he's done already. and even today he floated frisking, when in fact frisking has been found -- not frisking, excuse me, profiling, and stop and frisk, has been found unconstitutional, and not effective. and so, actually, his proposals alone -- we need trust, we need transparency, we need better training, we need more than just discussion about racism, we need

racial transformation. and we need to understand something. this is very simple. that's why you see black and white people together with these protests. a badge and a gun, the ability to serve a warrant and take a person's family member out of their house. the ability to use lethal force is too much power for a bigot, for someone that is trigger happy, and for someone that does not understand that their first role is to protect and serve, not to shoot and kill. >> all right, reverend william barber from north carolina, thank you for joining us. appreciate it. >> thank you so much. >> and as the reverend just said, donald trump has advocated the controversial policy of stop and frisk in response to the news this week. that policy was put to use by the new york police department to search citizens without cause up until the end of the year 2013. trump again defended the practice this morning, clarifying that he only wants it implemented in the city of chicago.

>> but stop and frisk worked. we had tremendous shootings, numbers of shootings. now, chicago is out of control. and i was really referring to chicago with stop and frisk. if they see a person, possibly, with a gun or they think may have a gun, they will see the person, they'll look, and they'll take the gun away. they'll stop, they'll frisk, and they'll take the gun away. and they won't have anything to shoot with. how it's not being used in chicago is, to be honest with you, it's quite unbelievable. >> but many have pointed out that stop and frisk didn'tner work as trump described it, according to a report by the new york state attorney general, only 3% of the nearly 2.# a million stops between 2009 and 2012 resulted in actual convictions. the brennan center also reported the that the end of the policy did not result in a surge in crime. furthermore, the practice was not limited to guns, as "the new york times" pointed out. officers often searched the subject's pockets for contraband like drugs, without any legal

ground for doing so. and as we've reported, the policy disproportionately affected african-americans and other minorities. over half of those stopped in 2013 were black. nearly a third were hispanic. the judge who overturned the practice called it a policy of o indirect racial profiling. joined now by a.j. delgado, former adviser to the trump campaign, and nina turner, an msnbc political analyst. a.j., let's start with you. donald trump introduced the idea of stop and frisk this week. he says now he was only talking about chicago. here's what i'm curious about, the politics of this. i went back and looked, in new york, when this was a major issue a few years ago, 67% of black new yorkers said that they were opposed to this policy. so here's donald trump, who says he's out there reaching out to black voters. this is the policy he proposes. this is not going to help him with black voters, is it? >> well, i resent the implication that a law and order candidate or pushing law and order policies is somehow antithetical toll american

community. on the contrary, they go hand in hand. >> but a.j., i just -- what i'm asking about. i'm not making that implication, i'm just giving you the poll numbers. the policy was in place in new york, two-thirds of black voters were opposed to it. he says, i want the policy for chicago now. i'm saying, won't that hurt him with black voters, since we have policy evidence it was very unpopular with black voters? >> i think it was unpopular, because they were fed misinformation from the media as far as how stop and frisk actually worked in the community. when you look at a place in chicago or ohio where mr. trump was speaking. by the way, at an african-american outreach event, which we greatly applaud him for. when we look at a place like chick, where they basically stopped using stop and frisk. the numbers are the police department has decreased its usage by about 80%. i think the african-american community in chicago, if you would ask them, are you perhaps in favor of looking at this policy, with using it quite heavily once again? i think we might be surprised to see what they say. it's time to put an end to the

violence, there, steve. and when you see children being shot on the streets, african-american children, who should be safe, i would be curious to see how african-americans would feel about an actual policy proposal, not one like hillary clinton's, but one like donald trump that might help the community. >> stop and frisk here in new york basically over a generation, you did see a big drop in new york and nationally in violent crime in the '90s, the early 2000s, stop and frisk was in place. of course, critics of the program say, hey, it's been out of existence in the city in a major way in the last few years. the crime rates haven't spiked. but you look at what's going on in chicago. could there be some positive from implementing a program like that in terms of the crime rate? >> not stop and frisk. and even mayor de blasio who has talked about how crime has gone down in new york over the last three years, it was very clear that was unconstitutional and it was a racist policy. we know that disproportionately african-americans and latino folks were stopped and frisked, as if they are somehow more

criminal than somebody else. and what i will say is that if a community speaks up, the african-american community was polled, and it wasn't the skewing of the mainstream media, in that they do not like that policy. now, chicago does need some help. there's no doubt about it. there's no way for us to spin out of that. that the violence in that city and some of the violence that we see in cities all across this country need to be addressed, not when we're in crisis, but copping to the table together. but stop and frisk is not the type of policy that should be used to really bring about the peace and trust and accountability that we need in our communities across this country. >> well, meanwhile today, donald trump's running mate, mike pence, said that this country should put an end to the debate about institutional bias or racism. those are his words there, within law enforcement, after tragedies like this. here's pence. >> donald trump and i believe that there's been far too much of ts talk of institutional bias or racism within law enforcement.

that police officers are human beings. and in difficult and life threatening situations, mistakes are made. >> a.j., let me ask you about that. when you look at -- we just put the stats up there, the stop and frisk program, how that disproportionately affected african-americans. we look at these officer-involved shootings, how they disproportionately, when you look at the statistics within affect african-americans. isn't race some component of this? >> yeah, always there is. but listen, at the end of the day, when you have a policy like stop and frisk, whether it was disproportionately affecting certain communities or certain people look at it that way, let's take a look at the actual stats. you had hundreds. in one year alone, in 2014 in new york, i think it was 400 guns were taken off the streets because of stop and frisk. so whether we can get into a debate about whether it disproportionately impacts racial communities or not, it does remove crime.

and pence has a point, but donald trump also said that tulsa, the officer there, did behave inappropriately. he criticized her. and i don't think those are mutually exclusive. i think pence is absolutely correct that we need to stop this talk of institutional racism in our police departments. none of these brave officers like the one in charlotte are african-american themselves. >> nina turner? >> steve, listen, institutional racism exists in this country. the african-american community is not delusional about this. what is happening in charlotte is not just about charlotte, it's about tulsa, it's about cleveland, it's about baltimore, it's about ferguson. it is about the fact that racism exists in the dna of america and the only way that we're going to deal with is to confess our sins. it didn't start with police and it doesn't end with police. it is the entire system. and as an african-american mother of an african-american son, who is a law enforcement officer, who has been racily profiled throughout his life, who does wear a badge and a gun, who i do worry about on both ends, let me just tell you this,

we have to deal with these issues in a very real way and the african-american community is sick and tired of this same sad song being played over and over and over and over again. and just like novelest james baldwin and activist james baldwin said, he said to be black in america and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage all the time. and when we have leaders who don't even want to acknowledge that we have institutional racism in this country, economic, political, financial, we have to admit that and do something about it. and all communities need the police, but we need transparency, we need accountability, we need trust. and they are not mutually exclusive, but it is okay for the african-american community to call foul. and that is what we are doing all across this country. and we sicked and tired of the same old song being played over and over again, yet in the wake of all of this, for dead black men and dead black women in this country. they hold up their hands, they

die. they on the ground, they die. we got to stop it and stop it right now. and i'm going to tell you another thing, steve. we ain't got to wait for presidential candidates. we need governors and mayors, people on city councils and state legislators right now to use the power of public policy to change this right now. >> all right. >> nina turner, i've got to leave it there. thank you for the time, though. we appreciate it. coming up, just four days to go until that first presidential debate, and new poll numbers providing a clear picture about where this race stands right now. we have got the numbers and a preview of what to expect monday night when hillary clinton and donald trump face off for the very first time. and back to our top story of the night. back to charlotte, north carolina, for what could be another tense night. and new jersey governor chris christie is trying to shore up his political legacy. it's come under threat from the ongoing bridgegate scandal, and a prosecutor who says that the governor knew about the lane closures on the george washington bridge as they were happening. that is something that christie has long denied.

and finally, the "hardball" roundtable will be here and they're going to tell me three things about this presidential race that i don't know. this is "hardball," the place for politics. my advice? look on the bright side. aveeno® skin brightening scrub and daily moisturizer with active naturals® soy. used together they make skin look healthier and more radiant in just one week. aveeno® naturally beautiful results® i'm going to the bank, to discuss a mortgage. ugh, see, you need a loan, you put on a suit, you go crawling to the bank. this is how i dress to get a mortgage. i just go to lendingtree. i calculate how much home i can afford. i get multiple offers to compare side by side. and the best part is.. the banks come crawling to me. everything you need to get a better mortgage. clothing optional. lendingtree. when banks compete, you win. okay! ...awkward.

donald trump is on stage at a campaign event in suburban philadelphia right now. he's been pushing hard to flip the state of pennsylvania. we have new polling that shows how this race stands with just four days to go now until the first presidential debate. right back after this.

hey and welcome back to "hardball." we're just four days away now from the first presidential debate between hillary clinton and donald trump. so we figured, let's take a look at where the presidential race stands heading into that debate. so here we are at the big board. what we thought we would show you is this. the national polls that came out this week were very good news

for hillary clinton. she seems to have the lead nationally. she has an advantage right now in that race to 270, the electoral college fight. trump is sort of playing from behind in this race. if you're donald trump, what is your path to victory at this point? what would it take to catch hillary clinton, overtake her, and cross 270? we want to give you a sense of what he is up against and what kind of advantage hillary clinton is sitting on right now heading into that debate. what you can see right here, we're penciling in clinton with 262, trump with 206 at this moment. this would be the trump path. here's what he needs to do. first, every state that's red right now, this is a romney state from 2012. this is a red state. the first thing donald trump has to do is he has to lock down the red states. win all the romney states. now there's one big if there, that's north carolina. the race is basically dead even there right now. it's a big if. but donald trump, if he has a path to 270, he has got to hold on to north carolina. that is the first step for trump. if he can do that, he's got to make inroads into blue america, blue states that obama won in 2012, that obama won in 2008. and what you're seeing here, the states that are sort of gray on your map right now, these are

probably the best shot blue states for donald trump, if he's got a path. bear with me here. take a look at how this would work. donald trump, first look at the state of ohio. the polling average there right now actually has donald trump ahead. this is a state donald trump won twice, but donald trump is leading in the polling there. if he can get that, you can see that would put him on his way a little bit closer. where else can he look right now? how about down to the state of florida? obviously, always an important state. the poll average is dead even right now. trump not ahead, but certainly he's got a shot in florida. if you're donald trump, you've got to win florida, too. that gets you a little bit closer. where else can donald trump look? how about wisconsin? this is a bit of a surprise. a lot of talk about pennsylvania. i think wisconsin now has replaced pennsylvania as the next big target for the trump campaign. you see in the average there, he's down close to five points, but the more recent polling, we had one come out just yesterday from the gold standard pollster in that state that put him at three points. donald trump has been making

more progress in wisconsin than he has been in pennsylvania, so the challenge for trump, and this is a big challenge, i cannot overstate that, a big challenge for trump is, he's got to get ahead in wisconsin. but, if he could do that, look, that would move him to 263. he's getting close here. take a look at the state of maine. why is it funny-looking here? it's because they give out their electoral votes in a weird way. you get two for winning the state, but also if you win a congressional district in the state, you get the vote for it, donald trump looks like he has a pretty big advantage in the rural district there in western maine, so trump very well could get an electoral vote out of maine. if he does that, 264. we'll take a look at iowa. he's actually ahead in the polls in iowa right now. what is iowa worth? it's worth six electoral votes. that would be 270. how about nevada? he's ahead in the polls out in nevada right now, the most recent ones. that would be 276. you can see donald trump's path. it's florida, it's ohio, it's probably wisconsin, it's that vote in maine.

if he can do that, then get either iowa or nevada or both if you could, and he could hit 270. he could be over that number. again, a lot of big ifs in here. if he can hold the red states, if he could flip wisconsin. but there is a path for donald trump right now. if there is, that's what it looks like. joining me now to talk more about the state of this race, we've got steve mcmahon, a democratic strategist, and john fieri, a republican strategist. steve mcmahon, let me start with you. in terms of hillary clinton's campaign, they've got good news in the national polls this week. we've got her up six in our nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. the survey monkey put her lead at five points. how good should the clinton campaign feel? >> i think they should feel really good for a couple of reasons. national polls tend to be the leading edge and state polls tend to be the trailing indicator. and you see her actually opening up her lead. the race is probably a structural five-point race, a

five-point advantage for hillary clinton or a democrat. you said it at the beginning. she starts off with 242 electoral college votes. i don't think donald trump is going to do something that nobody since -- that nobody since -- it hasn't happened since 1984, and that's win wisconsin. i think they should be feeling really good about where they are right now. >> john feehery, my takeaway when i sort of go through that exercise is donald trump needs a push here. he's got himself competitive, but he needs something that's going to move up, especially to states like i guess a debate could do that. do you think he's capable of getting the kind of performance, the kind of moment in this debate on monday night that could do that. >> if you look at this debate, you see donald trump has to exceed the soft glow of low expectations, because no one expects him to do that well. and i think he's going to exceed those low expectations. so i think i will give him a bump. the other thing he's got to do, he's got to appear presidential in his tone and temperament. and that's going to be a big challenge for him.

you saw the last debates, the republican debates. he really went after jeb bush. he really went after marco rubio, and he can't do that with hillary clinton. if he tries to be that aggressive with hillary clinton, i think it's going to backfire. tone and temperament is so important for donald trump in this upcoming race. >> can he -- the other thing in these primary debates, he had ten candidates on stage, commercial breaks. donald trump would get a two-minute burst of attention and disappear for 20 minutes. i mean this seriously, this is not a guy who talks about policy that much. does he have 90 minutes of material to go through that's not going to get him into trouble? >> well, that's the big question. i think he does, but, you know what, he's going to have to be an expert at the filibuster and find ways to have his big ideas spoke in big sentences that take up a lot of time. >> and steve mcmahon, i was talking to somebody the other day. we were thinking back to the 2000 debates, bush versus gore. and the one thing that seemed to work in bush's favor besides al gore sighing, the expectations game. going into that, it was seen as a big mismatch. gore was this world-class

debater, bush had troubles getting sentences straight, but the expectations game worked in bush's favor. is that something trump has to rely on here? >> i think he's right. the expectations are very low for donald trump, and probably they shouldn't be. as we all know, he's quite a showman. but i think it will be difficult for him to hold his temper. hillary clinton will not be an easy debate opponent. donald trump will get frustrated and overreact. and that's not good. when you're doing that in a debate against a female candidate, it's more of a challenge if you're doing it to jeb bush or somebody else. so, i think he's got to walk a tight rope here. i think expectations for him are low. if his tone and temperament are right, that may be a win for him, but he does have to talk for at least 45 minutes. and if i were hillary clinton, i just might let him talk for more. because the more donald trump talks, the more trouble he gets into, and the better it is for hillary clinton.

>> does she come with a game plan to try to provoke him? are there any risks, if that's her strategy, if she has some lines of attack that are designed to get some kind of reaction from him. is there a risk there for her in doing that? >> well, i don't think so. because she's a very, very -- the one thing about hillary clinton is she is steely and she is tough. and i'm sure she's going to come with some stilettos to plant in his ribs and i'm sure they're going to be plant there had. the question for donald trump is, how does he react? does he react in a way that's presidential or overreact? i think he'll overreact, like he's always done before. and when he does, i think hillary clinton will pounce. >> we'll see, steven. let me just say real quick, i think the expectations for hillary are really through the roof. people expect her to win this debate. the problem for hillary is she kind of retreats into her big policy books. she doesn't speak to the american people. she speaks to the inside the beltway crowd, and that's a danger for her, because donald trump speaks to the wider audience. he doesn't get into deep policy discussions and for hillary, she also has a stamina problem. is she going to be able to handle, you know, with the frustration of dealing with a

donald trump, who doesn't really answer her questions, doesn't really play by her playbook. and you're never quite sure what donald trump is going to come up with. can he handle that? does she have the stamina to handle dealing with donald trump for 90 minutes? >> four days away until that first big debate. up next, we're bracing for more unrest potentially in charlotte, north carolina. tonight, the city remains in a state of emergency. we'll go live there on the ground to talk to a reporter with the latest developments. this is "hardball," the place for politics. if your sneezes are a force to be reckoned with... you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec® for powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin®. because it starts working faster on the first day you take it. try zyrtec®. muddle no more®.

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tolerate any types of violence directed towards citizens or any type of destruction of property. >> and welcome back to "hardball." that was north carolina governor, pat mccrory earlier today, warning against violence in charlotte. night has fallen now in downtown charlotte after a second night of violent protests right now. right now, pastors are holding a vigil, but the city remains in a state of emergency, as the national guard is in charlotte tonight. the family of keith lamont scott, who is the man who was shot to death on tuesday by police has called on protesters to remain peaceful. for more on what's happening on the ground, let's turn to wes loundry of "the washington post." he joins us from charlotte. so wes, we saw what happened the last two nights. what is the sense down there tonight in terms of, will things be different, or are they bracing for more of the same? >> they're certainly bracing for more of the same now. this is that hurry up and wait time, right? we're in the early evening. it's not really dark outside yet. and what we've seen in city after city, whether it's ferguson, whether it's

baltimore, milwaukee, baton rouge, is that the element of these protest demonstrations, in the aftermath of a fatal police shooting, changes very rapidly once you go from daytime to the evening and then the late evening. and so right now, what we know is that we've got groups of demonstrators beginning to gather in a public park. as you noted, there are currently ministers gathering in a prayer vigil, but what we assume will happen, as night fall comes, as crowds start to change, they'll move back into downtown. and that will be the question of what exactly happens. the state police, the national guard, as well as the local police, have started setting up some barricades. they're kind of out in force with the hope that they can kind of preemptively detour any, you know, potential damage or destruction. but you know, in a lot of ways, it's a hurry up and wait. we'll see what happens tonight. >> and folks at home can see here on the left side of your screen, what you're looking at are aerial shots of downtown charlotte.

that's the park where the protesters are gathered right now. again, it's a peaceful vigil being led by some pastors, taking a wide aerial view there of downtown charlotte. wes, just give us a sense, too. i think wee see something like what happened last night, watching this live. the scale here in terms of how many, roughly, the people there are peaceful protesters versus how many are this other element that shows up. what's the balance like? >> the typical experience, and my understanding from what's been happening here in charlotte, it's not unlike many of the other times we've seen this kind of physical violent unrest in places. where you have a large element, you're primary element of people who have shown up to peacefully demonstrate. now, angry people, traumatized people, upset people, but the vast majority of them, you're talking about hundreds of people who are there peacefully. and at some on the in the night, there starts to be a turn. whether that be some of your older folks and families start going home, perhaps more teenagers start emerging and

coming into the streets if you start to see a different element appear. and you start to see the anger start to, you know, start to really kind of caramelize in that way. and that's very often when the violence begins. and the violence -- violence can be very relative. it can start with a water bottle being thrown at a police officer or a rock being thrown at a police officer. and then escalate. because of what we've seen in so many examples in so many cases, you start to develop a bit of a mob mentality when you have that many people out there who are that angry. and you have the police who at times do things that may escalate it. whether it be firing tear gas or rubber bullets. >> thanks for the time. >> anytime, steve. >> coming up, the unrest in charlotte coming just days before that first presidential debate, putting the issue of race front and center in the presidential race. the "hardball" roundtable is coming up here with what we can expect to see from trump and clinton on monday night. this is "hardball," the plax.

we're back. for more now on what we can expect at monday's first big debate, let's bring in the "hardball" roundtable. nick confessore is a reporter with "the new york times," beth fouhy is with nbc news, and ryan reyes is an nbc news contributor. talking about this a little bit earlier. beth, finish this sentence. it is a good night for hillary clinton on monday night if -- >> great question. >> trying to phrase the sail question i ask all the time differently. >> if donald trump fails to be compelling as a potential commander in chief. if he does not meet that test. >> and in terms of meeting that test, what does he have to do? >> the bar for him is incredibly low, unfortunately for hillary clinton. i think the image of him as a buffoon and someone as erratic is so baked in the public consciousness, if you're an undecided voter that's coming in for the first tile to really focus, and he can get through 90 minutes seeming like he could potentially fill that chair in the oval office, it is a win for him in terms of the voters he has to get. >> what does that mean, practically?

does that mean he has to avoid say something inflammatory? does it mean he has to complete a 90-second answer without -- i mean, what does that look like? >> speak in complete sentences usually helps. i think he has to try avoid getting knocked around by the moderator in an obvious lie. it's going to be hard for hip. he says them all the time. he has to look and sound like his ideas and his policies. again, his policies are kind of deeply developed. but i think people know he's not a polished politician and know he doesn't have deep, sophisticated policy ideas. he'll never be as good as hillary clinton on those terms. the question is, if he's somebody who's a wild card, is he not too much of a wild card? >> reilly, what do you make of that? is the bar so low that donald trump can clear this thing with an average performance? >> the bar extremely low for him. i think his only challenge, though, is he has never had this type of format for an hour and a half, no commercials, no breaks,

you know, think about his performance in the republican debates. he was there with so many other competitors and there was always a time pressure. he could stall or deflect and then they would go to a commercial. hillary clinton, after given 11 hours of testimony to congress, an hour and a half is nothing. i think she does great with long-format answers. the challenge for trump is he will not be able to deflect or run out the clock. and staying on message. a lot of people who have followed him and observed him, say he seems to have some type of attention-definite disorder thing going on, likes to jump around. it will be very hard for him to stay on point. and aside from the policies would strike many people to be presidential. and to avoid bullying or insulting a female candidate, who is making history. >> and that plays differently, doesn't it, beth? i remember in the primaries, when he went after jeb bush, now you're low-energy jeb, and shushing him and all these things.

it played a certain way with voters. i also remember when he started giving carly fiorina a bit of that same treatment going after her physical treatment, it played very differently. >> and you know, he had little marco, and low-energy jeb. he's been calling us, as we all know at this table, we get e-mails from the trump campaign every day, crooked hillary. >> can we say that on the debate stage? >> we're all debating whether he brings that to the debate and what effect that will have. because as raul said, she's making history. she is the first woman major party nominee for president. if he comes off at all as sexist towards her, belittling, crooked hillary, that's really going into territory he may not want to -- >> and the question is, like, how invested are voters today actually in the politics in the traditional presidential debate? how much do they really want to see that? this is not a year where people are really excited about that traditional format or candidate. that's the question mark for me.

>> and not only that, but i think trump runs a big risk picking up on your point. i think almost any professional woman in america can relate. whatever the political affiliation, can relate to the experience of being in a situation, where she is belittled or the victim of some type of microaggression by a male superior, who she views as an equal, but who is treating her in a way, just based on her gender. and i think trump, that's one reason why he has a problem with female voters. i think he could really run it into the ground if he insults hillary to her face. it's a huge risk. >> i'm have been remembering 2008, barack obama in that full-time thing before new hampshire. it's probably the worst moment for obama in the primaries, when he said to hillary clinton, you're likable enough. remember what happened? that was the saturday night before the primary, and obama was way ahead in the polls. clinton seemed dead coming out of iowa. nobody could figure it out. a couple days later, she wins

new hampshire, no poll picked up on it. a lot of people bet, though, looked at that moment and said, that created -- and it may not have just been women, but that created sympathy. she seemed like the underdog being picked on. >> the polls did show that women had come back to her in new hampshire after they had abandoned in her iowa. and we'll never know if it was that momentum that you described, the thing that changed them and brought them back to hillary clinton that time. it's a huge risk to look sexist, but the other thick going on, and it's a problem for hillary, she's also seen by so many people at this point as a clinton. she's part of that democratic power couple that's been around for 25 years. whether you love them or hate them, they're baked into your brain. and there are enough people there who just see her as establishment politics, part of a dynasty that many people may be ready to get rid of. out at trump's rallies, there are people in the audience every day saying, lock her up, lock her up. there's so much emotion around hillary clinton, both bad and good. that's what she's walking into. >> nick, should she come in armed with lines that are designed to provoke him? should that be part of the game plan, or should they just count on that being something that's spontaneous? they get lucky if he slips up and says something inflammatory that seems over the line.

>> i'm sure it's part of the game plan. it should look spontaneous. >> can you pull that off? >> hinger secret weapon is what i call snarky grandma. and we've seen her deploy it before. she's incredibly good at it. a low-key sarcasm, a slight undermining of the overbearing guy at the other end of the stage. i've seen her do it time and time again in these debates. she's very good at it and i think it will get under his skin. he does not have a great emotional toolbox for dealing with that kind of humor. and she can deploy it very, very well. i've seen her do it. if she can do it on this debate stage, it will help her a lot. >> where is she weakest, most vulnerable in a setting like this? >> in a setting like this, i think trump's -- whatever you think of him, i think it's safe to describe him as erratic. i think trump's weakness is his sheer unpredictability. and the fact that he could come out, if he's. nobody could figure it out.

all right, the countdown is on. we are just four days away before the first presidential debate between hillary clinton and donald trump and you can watch it right here live monday night on msnbc. chris matthews is going to be joined by brian williams and rachel maddow for complete coverage. the main event, lester holt will moderate the event, that begins at 9:00 eastern time, and chris will be back with post game

analysis and late night coverage. all coming up monday night and catch a special edition of "hardball" sunday night at 8:00 eastern when we get ready for debate night. be right back.

all right, we are back with the "hardball" round table. this is where they get the easiest job in the world. nick, tell me something i don't know. >> trump cafe in trump tower is doing a brisk business with the gop, according to campaign filing reports. the gop has spent over $1,000 there in the recent week, which is enough for 74 taco bowls, as we calculated. >> we know he's fond of those. >> back to the debates, september 26th, monday night, first debate of this presidential year, also the 56th anniversary of the first kennedy/nixon debate. >> if you are looking for a job, donald trump is hiring. bad news is, he's only hiring foreign workers. one of his resorts in florida

has a call for foreign workers to work in the resorts down there. the strange thing about it, not just bringing in guest workers, he's doing it in florida. this is something the clinton campaign is going to pounce upon, probably run an ad in florida and speaks to some of the disorganization in his campaign that they are doing this right now, but he is, literally, bringing in foreign workers right now. >> raul, beth, nick, thank you for joining us. right back after this.

again, the countdown is on, we are four days away from the first presidential debate between hillary clinton and donald trump. you can watch it here live on msnbc. chris matthews will be joined by brian williams and rachel maddow for complete coverage starting at 7:00 eastern on monday and then, of course, the main event, lester holt will moderate the event, that will begin at 9:00 eastern time. chris will be back with post game analysis and late night

coverage all coming up monday night. catch a special edition of "hardball" sunday night at 8:00 eastern. we get ready for debate night. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. see you again friday night. i think if everybody continues like it is and it's peaceful, we're going to do this all night long. but if we get windows smashed out and assault and bottles thrown, then we can use the c curfew as a tool if we need to. >> there were peaceful protests overnight in charlotte, but it comes as police refuse to release video of the shooting that sparked the demonstrations. >> and in tulsa, the officer involved in a deadly shooting has been charged with manslaughter after the fatal encounter caught on camera. plus, we are just three days away from the first presidential debate and we're getting details on what we can expect andho will be staring