if that happens this time, it could be a help to trump. the point is, it all depends on how you weight the poll. that's all we have for tonight. we'll be back monday with the big "mtp daily" preview show. but ari melber picks up our coverage right now. hello, i'm ari melber coming to you live from msnbc world headquarters in new york on a busy friday evening. we're tracking breaking news out of charlotte, north carolina. fallout of that video obtained by nbc news showing the deadly police shooting of keith lamont scott. the incident triggering protests in that city. also becoming a flash point immediately in the 2016 election, with both candidates weighing in on policing, as they prepare for that big first debate, we're now within 72 hours of it. also, a late-breaking twist today. ted cruz endorsing donald trump. but we begin with president obama reacting to the ongoing situation in charlotte, north carolina. we can show you this. moments ago at the white house, the president speaking at an event for a new african-american

museum in washington, and he said this. >> the struggles we're going through today are connected to the past, and yet, all of that progress we've made tells me that i cannot and will not sink into despair. because if we join hands and if we do thix right, if we maintain our dignity and we continue to appeal to the better angels of this nation, progress will be made. >> the president's remarks come just a short time after nbc news' gabe gutierrez obtained that new video of the deadly shooting of keith scott by police in charlotte. the video provided by his family, it is disturbing. what you hear is gunshots on it. you won't see, however, the actual shooting on camera. and we still don't know exactly what happened in the moments before this taping began. when you watch the entire clip, it's also not clear what or

whether there are things on the ground, which has been a major point of contention. what we want to show you now is a key portion of the tape. and for clarity's sake, you may not have seen this version at all anywhere today. what we have done here is explicitly subtitled what is being said in realtime, so you can understand all of the perspectives. we're going to play that for you now.

>> and you can hear those four shots there after that first 50 seconds of the encounter. a video that is disturbing to watch. now, earlier in the day, north carolina governor pat mccrory gave a press conference. he spoke for several minutes about flooding in the state, and then he did turn to this issue in charlotte. >> i think we all have three basic goals regarding not only the tape, but our criminal justice system. and that is, first of all, we have to make sure that there's a fair investigation. the second goal is, we have to make sure that we protect the constitutional rights of any of those that are currently being investigated. and frankly, anytime there is a crime -- an incident of this matter, it is a criminal

investigation. the other issue that we are, of course, very sensitive to, is we want to make sure there is transparency and there is compelling public interest in this information. and those always are not a clear balance and a clear line. >> that was a vague reference to the issues about releasing police video. governor mccrory did not, however, explicitly say much about whether the cell phone video we just showed you should be complimented by actual police video, nor was he asked about the new video that the family provided to nbc news. nor, at any point, we want to give you a clear understanding here, at any point did the governor say anything about mr. keith scott. he didn't mention his name. now police, for their part, have not released those dash cam and body cam videos. officials resisting calls to release those videos here, at any point in the upcoming scenario. what we do know is that these questions continue to surface in charlotte. and we basically look at this tonight with the curfew in effect. this is going to start in about six hours. we will note that the protests that occurred last night were

largely peaceful. prior to that, there was some violence, as you may have seen on the news, and we want to go to nbc's ron mott, who is live in charlotte for us. what is the reaction now as people are hearing about or seeing on tv or on the internet, or even on their cell phones, of course, this new cell phone video from the family? >> reporter: just some anecdotal glancing of social media since this tape became public on nbc news, on msnbc this afternoon, i think people are going to react against the police. and because they have not released their version of events with their video, so we will have to see once the sun goes down, that's been the case now for three nights and now we're on night four, when people start to converge downtown, which is called uptown here in charlotte, whether there will be any real reaction to this video by the scott family. now, the question is, the investigation has moved to the state level now. the fbi, the state bureau of investigation is now in charge of the official criminal

investigation of this case, the shooting of mr. scott. it is no longer in the hands of the charlotte-mecklenburg police department, or the city of charlotte, which made it very clear over the past couple of days that they had no intention of ever sharing this video with the public. just a few moments ago, though, the mayor of charlotte released a statement and she is now urging the state bureau of investigation to release the tapes to t public as soon as possible, as quickly as possible, it says, in her statement. she does not say if that should be done tonight or at the end of the investigation. she says as quickly as possible. this as secretary clinton, rudy giuliani, the head of the naacp, all calling for the release of the tapes. now, what's interesting, i thought, ari, was the fact when mr. scott and the family along with their attorneys viewed the material yesterday with the police department, both sides have said since that the shooting itself, caught on camera, on those body cameras and in the dash cam video, was

ambiguous. it was inconclusive. so today, with this tape the family copping out, it does not show him being shot, so it is also inconclusive in terms of shooting itself. but there's a lot of drama on that tape. and i think a lot of people are going to be upset by hearing the pain, the obviously pain of a wife who has essentially watched and heard her husband be shod and killed. ari? >> yeah, as you say, ron, it is a video that begins with a -- basically, the participation of a wife and it ends with a widow. it is a grueling video to watch, no matter where you come down on what we know and don't know at this point. ron mott, thank you for your reporting. for more, we go to former nypd lieutenant, darrin porcher, and paul butler, a former federal prosecutor. in that light, paul, is there anything in this video that makes it look like there's more of an indictable offense prior to 1:00 p.m. when it came out

today. >> as we yet again watch an african-american woman watching the destruction of her partner at the hands of her police, we have to wonder how much hope we should have. the governor talks about transparency. if he wants transparency, release the videotape. so on this tape, we don't see what happens in the actual encounter. this is what we know. the police weren't looking for him. they were out to execute a warrant against somebody else. they saw him and apparently had a report that he had a gun. elementary -- every cop learns this in -- as a rookie, if you think that someone has a gun and is dangerous, you don't roll up on that person, expose yourself to fire and then use that as an excuse to gun that person down. i don't know if we see manslaughter in this tape. i don't know if we see a cover-up, because mysteriously, there's no gun. the gun shows up later -- i know we see poor training by cops. >> i want to get to that. we've been reporting on that all day, wch goes to what happens

right after the shooting. but staying chronologically with what happens in the shooting, does this look like to you like good policing questionable policing, or a potentially criminal act by police? >> i so the questionable. the gentleman mentioned tactics -- excuse me, i see this as a tactical flaw. a tactical nightmare, to be specific. one of the first things that these officers should have done is once they were able to understand and assess that this was a dangerous situation, they should have regressed and used the police cars for cover and concealment. by using the police cars for cover and concealment, it allows much more time to negotiate a surrender, if need be necessary, or bring in additional resources. here, we had upwards of 10 to 12 commands drop the gun, subsequently this individual was shot, tragically. this could have been avoided had the police deployed proper tactical procedures. and we just didn't have that here. >> we're also going to take a look, while we go through the video, which we've been covering today, we're also going to potentially have some shots of the community, as we keep an eye

there, as everyone hopes, of course, that there is only a peaceful response. that's what everyone's called for. i also want to play more from the governor's press conference, which seemed very out of character. wherever you come down on this, and it's an open investigation, we don't know where it ends, where it lands. and yet part of what the governor said, at a time when the community and the world has been looking at this and concerned, really seemed out of touch, is the fairest way i can put it. take a listen to some of what he said. >> he was tremendous -- i'm sorry. very much disconnected from reality. >> and we'll play a bit of it. >> i hope you don't take this in the wrong vein, but i watched a football game last week on tv and saw four different replays and each showed something different, you know, camera angles and everything mean a lot. and there are a lot of other circumstances involved in other situations, and it's not just the camera that's involved in an

incident, there are many other factors involved. and it would be inappropriate for me to discuss those other factors. >> darrin? >> one of the things that we have to take into consideration, this shooting occurred in a -- at a place that is a public place. this is not a constitutionally protected place. so when i hear his rhetoric in connection with not releasing the video, it astounds me that why can't this be released? people in that area had a clear line of sight. when we think of the average citizen, we're videoed roughly 100 to 200 times a day. so we don't have an expectation of privacy in public. let's take into consideration the way police deal with situations. let's say, hypothetically, we have a person that's arrested. they immediately disclose the person's name, identity, criminal background -- >> and this goes to the conflict in north carolina about the state law, which has made it more difficult to get this video. the question is, okay, if the video exists, who gets it. if it's only a tool of for the

police, which is many times in the public interest, if it's only that and never available to the public for accountability, that raises questions. paul, i wonder your direct response to the governor, likening some of this to instant replays on nfl sunday? >> it's inhumane. this is a man who was gunned down by officers of the law, and in the name of democracy, that people need to know why. look, if this video that they're holding on to exonerated the police or showed them in a positive light, we would have seen it days ago. >> so you read it -- i just want to be clear, as an investigator, and you're a former prosecutor, you work with fbi agents and police all the time, you read it as a negative sign for the police that they haven't put the video out? >> i absolutely do. again, it's hard to believe that if this video actually showed a person with a gun threatening the cops, it would be released. they wouldn't be concerned about angles. in part because it's forensics. this is one piece of evidence. anyone who watches the video

will know what it shows, what it doesn't show. but when they say that it compromises the investigation if it's released, that's just ba d balderdash and it raises the concern they're covering something up. >> i want to bring up something that's not the fault of police, but a societal problem where we turn to police and force them to deal, we have some real mental illness and disability issues in this country. and a lot of these problems don't get dealt with at the level of social services or proper health care. and we ask our police to come in and deal with them without the proper training or support. i'll give you one example, half of the people who die at the hands of police have some kind of disability, according to a report in the last year. as officers drawn into emergencies, where urgent care may actually be more appropriate than lethal force. i wonder if you can speak to that here, where according to the family lawyer, this individual, mr. scott, did have a serious brain trauma over a year ago, and it is possible

that contributed to miscommunication or problems on the scene, which these officers may not have known about in any way. the wife was trying to tell them very late stage. >> the optics of use of force are always ugly. there's no way to gift wrap this. however, when we look at a situation and we take into consideration someone that's been suffering from a mental illness, it's very difficult for an officer to assess that, especially when we take into consideration, just the two entities meeting on the street. for you to troubleshoot and determine if a person is suffering from a mental illness and there's a gun involved, it's split-second reactions that will determine if you live or if you're able to live -- if you live or if you die. however, at the same token, police are public servants, tasked with protecting the public. so the public shouldn't be concerned about protects themselves from police. therefore, as the average professionals, it's necessary for police to practice a quintessential policing in preventing these kind of incidents from occurring. >> and briefly, paul, i want to

put the video back up on the screen and have you speak to the other part you raised earlier, which is after the shooting, whether it looks like proper procedure and chain of custody. this is the early part of the video, as it gets later, tell us whether you think it seemed to be secure in the right way, or whether they raised a lot of questions when mr. scott was on the ground and it was not clear what was going on. go ahead. you can tell us. >> sure pip mean, ari, as a lawyer, you know in criminal cases, we spend lots of time on chain of custody. that is, how do the police recover the evidence and what happened to it every step of the way. we do that because jurors want to know that the case the government is presenting has integrity. that the evidence has not been tampered with. that a gun was not planted to make it look like the police are absolved of guilt. you know, we saw in north charleston, it looked a lot like on that videotape, the police planted a gun. i never want to say that about our brave men and women in blue, but the reality is, there's not a lot of trust between

communities of color and police and that's what a lot of people think exactly what they did. the video did not show a gun. the gun somehow mysteriously appears later in the photograph. where was that gun at the time mr. scott was gunned down? >> and to your point, will the authorities provide the kind of public evidence, video and beyond, so that there is some integrity in the process? now that it's a state separate inquiry, that's up to the state, not the local police anymore. i want to thank you both for joining us on this important issue. coming up, we will take a turn to the presidential race. how charlotte is affecting the candidate, whether this is going to come up in those big debates. and behind the scenes, trump and clinton gearing up for what is by far the most important event to date. and how will the gop be affected by that big, big announcement that ted cruz will vote for donald trump, all straight ahead. ell what i'm thinking, just by looking in my eyes.

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love your children as much as i know that you do, stand and speak and vote your conscience. vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the constitution. >> that sound you hear is more booing than cheering, one of the most memorable convention moments in a long time, ted cruz declining to endorse or even say he would vote for donald trump there at the convention. that will not be soon forgotten. but, it will be replaced, at least if the trump campaign has its way. ted cruz with a change of heart today. he announced, in a lengthy and detailed facebook post, that he will back trump, after all. he says he will vote for him. and then he specifically cited six policy areas where he prefers the trump approach to clinton. explicitly citing supreme court nominees and the repeal of obamacare. trump has responded saying he is, quote, greatly honored. now, we know there was some fighting during the primary.

things got pretty ugly from trump's lyin' ted lines to all the personal attacks on cruz, his wife, her appearance, floating the idea, even, that cruz's father was somehow linked to the assassination of jfk, which we have to remind you, was not offered with any evidence and does not appear to be true. cruz for his part, also, had plenty to say about donald trump. >> this man is a pathological liar. a narcissist at a level i don't think this country has ever seen. morality does not exist for him. a bully. serial philander. -- not a blanket commitment that if you go and slander and attack heidi, that i'm going to nonetheless come like a servile puppy dog and say, thank you very much for maligning my wife and maligning my father. >> joining me now for a good old-fashioned politics section and maybe a victory lap is boris epshteyn, senior adviser to the trump campaign. is this about donald trump being strong at this moment in

september or about ted cruz being weak? >> it's about ted cruz and the voters. over 90% of voters are behind donald trump, that's the voters who are speaking. we're up big league in texas, by about, you know, eight points on average, we'll win by a margin above that. ted cruz is listening to the voters nationally and listening to the voters in texas. >> when you say he's doing this because of the voters, does that mean he's not doing it because of donald trump? that effectively he has to follow the political winds, but there isn't any great allegiance to what donald trump is offering as a candidate? >> no, of course that's not what aye saying -- >> because it sounded like you were saying it's the voters. >> i'm saying the republican party is coalesced behind donald trump, it's unified behind donald trump. and ted cruz is doing the right thing because he said he would do it. >> he did sign the pledge. >> and i would call on all republican candidates to come out and do the same. >> i know one of the things you were looking forward to when you agreed to come on and do this

segment is us playing some other clips of ted cruz attacking donald trump. >> i was just dreaming of that. >> it's part of political television. >> it's things that happened. control room, let's roll, february, "meet the press". >> it's natural to wonder, well, what is it that he's hiding the in his taxes. chuck, maybe it is the case that donald -- there have been multiple media reports about donald's business dealings with the mob, with the mafia. maybe his taxes show those business dealings where a lot more extensive than has been reporte reported. >> ted cruz backing trump today, but has long called for the release of the tax returns, and one of the reasons is this innuendo of mob ties. should donald trump release taxes, as his new reportsupportd he should. >> absolutely not, donald trump has been clear that his taxes

are under audit and when it's clear, he'll release his taxes. >> you're calling it an endorsement? >> that's what it is. >> he didn't say he endorsed him. >> you can split hairs all you want. ted cruz will be voting for donald trump and said donald trump is the right choice for america. if you look at the policies of hillary clinton versus donald trump, look at the policies of national security, immigration, on the supreme court, and of course, it makes perfect sense that donald trump should be the one that is elected president. hillary clinton is trying to run on a record of national security, but look at the middle east, as me and you have discussed before, and her record is abysmal. >> can i ask you one other thing? >> you can ask me anything you want. >> i love that about you. do you think this would have been handier if he would have just done it in that much-watched prime-time convention speech? i mean, it's hard for me to understand the timing here, as a student of politics, maybe you can educate me. you're very close to it on the campaign. why did ted cruz wait this long to do something he could have done at the convention? >> i was never in the cruz campaign. i have have been a trump backer from day one, have been proud to be one.

that's up to senator cruz. but we are glad that he's come around. and i would like to call on the other republican candidates who have not done so to follow his lead. >> all right. we've talked mostly politics, which is necessary. it is a necessary part of cov covering politics. i want to ask you one serious policy question before i let you go. here's what hillary clinton said today as you look at what's unfolding in charlotte. she said, charlotte police should release the police video of the keith lamont scott shooting without delay. we must ensure justice and work to bridge divides. does donald trump have a position here? should this video be public? >> in terms of the releasing the video, that's up to local authorities. that's a legal process. so, you know, in my opinion, that's up to them. i think hillary clinton here is stating her opinion and she's entitled to it. but in no way would i like to add to the discourse that's going on now and the unrest. so, again, that's up to the local police and for them to make a decision based on what they think is best on the case and the goings-on, on the ground, which are obviously very heated. >> we wanted to give you a

chance to weigh in on that. boris epshteyn, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> on sunday, don't miss our preview coverage of the debate. we have special all-night coverage. it is going to be a ramp up to the biggest thing in politics. you can check monday's debate right here on msnbc, moderated by our own lester holt. na fall. (engine revs) the things it does to your parade. we've got a saying about rain, too: when it rains... it roars. the all-wheel-drive charger. domestic. not domesticated. i'm not a customer, but i'm calling about that credit scorecard. (to dog)give it. sure! it's free for everyone. oh! well that's nice! and checking your score won't hurt your credit. oh! (to dog)i'm so proud of you. well thank you. get your free credit scorecard at discover.com.

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we have a news update for you. president obama has vetoed a controversial bill today that would allow families of 9/11 victims to directly sue saudi arabia over its alleged ties to the terrorist who is carried out their horrific attacks. 9/11 families have protested outside the white house, including today, and the president is now facing a very likely veto override on a bipartisan basis from congress. the bill passed there by wide margins. an override would, in fact, be the very first for the obama presidency. >> overriding the president's veto means that this country will start pursuing a

less-forceful approach in dealing with state sponsors of terrorism. and potentially opens up u.s. service members and diplomats and even companies to spurious lawsuits in kangaroo courts around the world. >> that pretty slow defense from white house press secretary josh earnest there may not carry the day. on the political front, donald trump releasing a statement. he calls the president's veto a, quote, disgrace. now, supporters are saying the bill is an overdue chance to use the court systems for some kind of additional justice mechanism for 9/11 families who want to pursue their case against people in saudi arabia. now, among those supporters, president obama's former secretary of state herself, hillary clinton. we will be watching this story. now one next, yes, we keep talking about it. it could be the most-watched political event of all time, literally. clinton versus trump. how are they preparing? what do they both need to do? we have an all-star panel.

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motorcade left home en route to an undisclosed location for that special secret debate prep. both candidates, of course, lying low today with the high stakes. but we are hearing from their teams. here was clinton's communications director. >> good luck is what i would say in response. donald trump may think he's the person who's going to be the first one to really get under her skin, but i doubt it. >> still, a little bit of shade. not even trareally aggressive th talking. sort of hypothetical. eric's son also talked about what his dad might be like. listen. >> my father is going to be himself. you can never tell what's going to happen. you have to judge the moment. if she comes out swinging with, he's someone who will never back down. if she's nice and respectful, he can be incredibly charming as well. >> how will trump handle questions about his charities and taxes. how will clinton respond to questions about her e-mails. that comes up sometimes, or the clinton foundation, which just

wrapped up its meeting in new york this week. and how do you handle the optics, the stagecraft of what everyone understands to be, literally, the biggest moment of these two very famous and somewhat unpopular people's careers. well, we have a super panel here friday night. ely stoeckel is a national political reporter for politico, and elise rand, an analyst here at msnbc. and tara dardel, our vip political strategist, and a former contestant on "the apprentice." so you've seen donald up close. >> yes, i have. >> let's kick it off with this. donald is versatile. there is a caricature of him -- >> that's one word for it. >> you get more than one word. but there's a charkture of him only being one way. but part of his success in the primary debates was that he had different types of way, if you will, to paraphrase. let's take a look at him doing several different interactions with all of those competitors he

had in the primaries. >> let me talk. quiet. >> i'll talk -- >> a lot of times -- >> i never attacked him on his look. and believe me, there's plenty of subject matter right there. that i can tell you. >> don't worry about it, little marco. no, you're the lying guy up here. >> my mama is the strongest woman i know. it's not about my family or his family. >> first of all, this guy's a choke artist and this guy's a liar. >> how is that going to work against hillary clinton or are we going to see something different altogether? >> i think you'll see something different from donald trump. i think he's a chameleon. i think he's someone that plays to the audience. he feeds off of his audience. so in this setting, it's going to be a much more subdued setting. and i think he knows. donald trump may be manipulative, he may be many things, but he's not a dumb person. so i think he knows that he has to be careful in how he deals with secretary clinton. >> something that i think is or not to consider about this first debate is how different it is going to be from the primary debates.

he really was going on to a stage, had no idea what to expect. the preparation for a primary debate is so much different than the preparation for a presidential debate, in that fire can be coming from everywhere. so by this point in the campaign, they really know the points of attack that are going to be lobbed at them. and it's just going to be how he responds, and to clinton especially as a woman. and i think that's what's really going to be the decisive match point, you can say. >> he's speaking not to the same people he was in the primary. he's speaking to a small segment of undecided voters, because most voters know what they think of both of these candidates. so he still has to clear that hurdle of being believable as president. someone after these three debates that those swing voters can actually see being president. there's a reason his national numbers are still in the low 40s. he hasn't cleared that bar yesterday. so he has people around him telling him, you can't just punch and counterpunch and hide when you're talking to the other five candidates on stage. it's him and clinton and he's got to be more substantiative

and more controlled. whether he can do that over three debates. >> you say that, like that's automatic. actually, you can win a debate by looking good or you can win a debate by trying to make the other person look really bad. he did more of the latter in the primaries, to great effect. i mean, that seemingly juvenile, withering takedown of rand paul may have seemed cheap, but it really did work and came at a time when rand paul's stock was declining. it felt like an extra nail in the junior coffin, to mix metaphors. and hillary clinton has not distinguished herself as someone who seems very strong under debate pressure. here she is in some of the primary debates. >> i was very pleased when governor o'malley endorsed me for president in 2008 and i enjoyed his strong support in that campaign and i consider him, obviously, a friend. as transparent as i know to be, turning over 55,000 pages of my e-mails, asking that they be

made public, and you're right, i am going to be testifying. i've been asking to testify for some time. and to do it in public. >> i think we need someone that has the best in ethical standards as our next president. that's how i feel. >> secretary clinton, do you want to respond? >> no. >> you know, it doesn't knock you out. and we have people who go through the videos to find the moments. i want to release whether there's an issue here that she comes off potentially as very competent, but not ultimately breaking through, right? because donald trump can do this thing where he said recently he's going to be nice, or he can try to control this debate and make it more of an interaction. that can play favorably if you are the competent one. the question here is whether she gets a lot of swings at the bat. >> well, i think at this point in the game, though, hillary clinton doesn't have to break through. she needs to just be slow and steady and not have any unforced errors. donald trump, she's banking on his mistakes. she's banking on his nastiness. she's banking on driving

turnout. she wants him to offend millennials, she wants him to offend african-americans. she wants to offend college-educated women. she wants to pull those people to even up the margins, because otherwise, her narrative is set. people who are anti-collin are not swayed, at all. this is the most conspiratorial election we've ever had. i was doing -- i was part of lord ashcroft's polling team last week in wisconsin. and we were talking to voters about what they felt about hillary clinton. and overall, the narrative has been set. she's deceitful, she's a liar. people who are not going to vote for her, they hold those beliefs so firmly that it's not -- there's no wavering there. >> i think, also, hillary clinton is subjected to a double standard. i mean, the rnc chairman, one of his first comments about her was that she needed to smile more. and that's not said about druond trump, who doesn't smile at all. >> i've seen him wear this suit like three times on tv. >> he needs to smile more -- >> please, go on.

>> but, no, she's held to a double standard. i mean, donald trump, his campaign is out there working overtime to lower expectations about this -- >> that's been the key thing, right? that always happens. there's a deliberate attempt to work the refs, but it seems to have worked, because it's beyond the refs. there's a feeling in the public, donald trump went to mexico and stood quietly, and everyone was like, see, he cannot be -- what, offensive? that's the standard? >> i think hillary clinton's campaign has already come to grips. i think it's important that they do come to grips that he's not going to be subjected to the same standard of competency that's applied to her. he does things every day that would be the end of any normal political candidate. it doesn't apply to him. and so the rules are different. and so they have to understand that, they have to go into that debate knowing that and understanding that he's a great performer, but they have to sort of do what they can to make it amount substance. his campaign has done a good job of putting him on the teleprompter for a few weeks, cleaning up his message. he's not going to have that for 90 minutes on -- >> let me play what he says he's

going to do, in his own words, he's going to be nice. here's donald trump. >> i'm going to be very respectful of her. i think see deserves that and i'm going to be nice. and if she's respectful of me, that'll be nice. we'll have a -- something, i think, that peep will respect as a debate. >> you've worked around him. do you think he'll be nice like that? >> i think his plan is very much to go into this debate and to surprise people by being calm, by being nice, by offering to the extent that he can offer a policy position, to offer a little bit, some crumbs on that front. he can't be substantiative, because he's not substantiative. and he has chosen not to be. but i do think, with respect to hillary clinton, though, i think -- look, hillary clinton's supporters, at the end of this debate, are going to support hillary clinton. donald trump supporters at the end of this debate are going to support donald trump. >> you're getting really deep. >> i don't want to be captain obviously here, right, but it's a fact. there's a sliver of people see needs to appeal to. for hillary clinton, this debate

is about talking to those people who are democrats, who she wants to make sure show up and vote, who are disappointing -- >> we are going to take a quick break. i will use moderator's privilege and say, you all sound a little bit like conventional wisdom. you're describing the way general election debates usually work, and i get that. but there could be a very different debate with over 100 million people watching. and donald trump a very unconventional candidate. we'll take a quick break, when we come back, a little more on charlotte, which is important. the panel stays and how it's playing out on the race. stay with us. the search for relief often leads to places like... this... this... or this. today, there's a new option. introducing drug-free aleve direct therapy. a tens device with high intensity power that uses technology once only available in doctors' offices. its wireless remote lets you control the intensity, and helps you get back to things like... this... this... or this. and back to being yourself. introducing new aleve direct therapy. find yours in the pain relief aisle.

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welcome back. we turn back to the deadly shooting in charlotte and how it's affecting public and political conversation. the clinton campaign weighing in. she is going to travel to charlotte on sunday, a day before the big debate and marks the importance of this issue at least in that campaign's mind. last night, donald trump also spoke about policing. she accused clinton of supporting a narrative that all police officers are more or less, quote/unquote, racist.

>> those peddling the narrative of cops as a racist force that our society are -- and this is a narrative that is supported with a nod by my opponent. you see what she's saying and it's not good. shared directly in the responsibility for the unrest that is afflicting our country and hurting those who have, really, the very least. >> you hear it there. i want to bring back in our panel, and i want to do it seriously. i don't want to just get into the muck here. but there's a lot of wiggle words in the way donald trump makes that fairly serious charge, elise. he basically says it's a nod to that argument. he's not saying hillary clinton is directly making this racist argument, she's nodding towards it. and then he says, she's, quote, directly responsible for some of that unrest. what do you think of this line of attack? and do you think this is coming from donald trump's mind or from his strategists, who believe that here in late september, they should try to tie their

opponent to what we have widely reported is still a relatively small part of these protests that people have, unfortunately, resorted to violence. >> going back to the convention, what was his mantra there, that he was going to be the one to protect america, and you know, fight crime and america descended into levels of anarchy, you know, that are worse than afghanistan. that's been his mental for a long time, that america is imploding. so, of course, he's going to seize is opportunity and try to blame clinton and link clinton in any way to the unrest. >> this is hard for him. he's trying to square his law and order approach to everything with his need to not just do outreach to frafrican-american voters, but do that way in a way that white women in suburbs see and say, he cares about the inner cities, and softens his edge a little bit. >> that's another piece of conventional wisdom. "the washington post" did this article and a lot of people said this, this ricochet argument. that he is saying this not to appeal to black voters, per se, but make other people feel more

comfortable. tara, i wonder if another piece of this is simply, when you combine that with his attempt to shift on the birther issue. i wouldn't call it a real shift, but his attempt to sort of muddy that issue, whether, in fact, part of the issue is black turnout, and he doesn't want to be such a source of motivating turnout. he's not going to win these votes, but he needs to somehow tamp it down. >> that's exactly right. that's also another strategy. you don't want to lose a group by massive numbers, where it really puts your election out of play, right? so it's not just about appealing, it's about limiting. he understands that -- look, they have polling. we all see the polling. that there's some soft numbers for secretary clinton with black mentals, right? so he knows they're not going to vote for him. but if he can keep them from voting for her, to be not as odious, that's a strategy, too. >> there's a lot of zinging and zagging on all of these issues. >> i do believe, to your point, i believe this is a direct appeal to make white women feel better about voting for him. >> go ahead. >> that may be what he's doing,

but you're talking to african-american communities and saying, this is a terrible situation. i can make it better. you have to trust me. he's also out there selling, you know, the stop and frisk policy that i think most minority communities look at as something that drives up racial profiling. so, it's a little disingenuous, but politically, there could be some savviness to it, because in muddling everything up, which is what he has done on a lot of issues throughout the campaign, you allow people who want to see a certain thing to see it. and he's sort of this error shaq test candidate, who's just sort of tries to be everything to all people. and i think -- >> he's a rorschach -- are you making a reference to his hair? >> no, that's -- >> because if you are, i want you to own it. >> i had not thought of that. >> that's just a coincidence? >> yes, but, that is applicable. >> because boris epshteyn, i don't know if he's still in the building, he's about to run back in here and say that was sexist. go ahead. >> i think hillary clinton has a definite problem with african-american turnout this year. you look at a similar point in

2012, mitt romney had 3% are, president obama had 95% favorables with african-american voters. and they turned out for him. hillary clinton is around 75%. that's really going to hurt if this ends up being a close election. >> all right. we're out of time. >> okay. >> african-american voters are going to vote for hillary, though. >> okay, well, all right -- >> yes, they will, but they've got to turn out in great enough number. >> thank you all three of you for joining us. wall street in 2016, it is complicated. this is a story we want to bring you about all of those wells fargo shenanigans. that's straight ahead.

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this is about accountability. you should resign. you should give back the money that you took while this scam was going on and you should be criminally investigated by both the department of justice and the securities and exchange commission. >> backlash against wall street this week. elizabeth warren going after wells fargo ceo, john stump. this was after the bank admitted to opening up millions of fake accounts without telling customers. the bank has fired 3,500 employees for the fraud, $185 million fine now, and federal prosecutors investigating criminal charges. that could land some executives in jail. also this week, mylan pharmaceuticals facing bipartisan fire. the company's ceo facing questions over a more than 400% price hike of a life-saving allergy treatment, the epipen. could these fights turn into any kind of political passion on the race this year, on the race for president?

we've got, of course, a billionaire and financial insider on one side and a democrat who's often been criticized for her close ties to wall street. now, clinton, for her part, says she's disturbed by the wells fargo scandal and called for mylan to voluntarily lower the price of those epipens. but critics pointing to her ties to wall street and saying she's way too close to the people making these decisions. now, donald trump opposing most federal regulation of the financial industry and has not weighed in at all on these stories. so, for more, we turn to dennis keleher, president and ceo of better markets, a group that pushes for financial reform. what do you make of this issue? what did wells fargo do. what should be done to them? >> it's pretty clear that there was a massive, years-long pattern of criminal conduct by thousands of employees at wells fargo. and we don't yet know anywhere near the facts, but what we do know is either the ceo and the senior executives didn't know, for five years, what thousands and thousands of its employees

were doing, ripping off its customers, or they did know. either way, they need to go. >> it sounds -- dennis, it sounds like a scandal. it sounds like a conspiracy, if you have that many people involved, at basically customer and leadership levels of a bank, doing something that is just plain-old fraud. this isn't a fancy toxic instrument, right? you're just saying, they opened up these fake accounts to get money, to take money they wouldn't have otherwise gotten. >> well, you're right. this is not gray. this is black and white. this is criminal, fraudulent conduct. and the only question is, who knew what and when did they know it. and that goes to the board of directors, the ceo, all the way down. and remember, you've got two chains of command in these banks. one is the operational chain of command, where people are put, pressure on salespeople, mid-level executives. the parallel chain of command is risk, legal, compliance, and audit. there's anntire breakdown

across all of management, operation, legal risk and audit. and there needs to be a wholesale house cleaning there. and individuals have to be held accountable. that's the common denominator here, whether it's wrongdoing in one place or misconduct, whether it's criminal conduct, or whether it's civil misconduct, because you have not seen, in ten years, almost, an individual executive at a marquise bank being personally, meaningfully punished. >> so to look at this in the campaign, donald trump has said zero on this, with we checked. hillary clinton said a little bit. your view of both of the candidates on this? >> actually, hillary clinton put out a very strong statement on the illegal conduct at wlfg, and trump typically is just incredibly quiet. you know, if you look at the policies and what they have said on these candidates, wall street had actually better be pretty

concerned if clinton becomes president. if trump becomes president, the champagne corks will be popping. >> a strong statement from someone who knows the issues. i'm ari melber. you've been watching msnbc. have a good weekend. "hardball" is next. >> charlotte on edge. this is "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. we're following developments out of charlotte today in the case of tuesday's fatal police shooting of keith lamont scott. nbc was first to release video today capturing the shooting. the video was provided to us by the attorney for the scott family and it shows scott's interaction with police. you can hear his wife's voice in the recording, as the scene plays out. the video obviously is disturbing and while you will hear the gunshots, y