now. >> good evening. today the wife of the man shot and killed by police released charlotte on edge. this is "hardball"." good evening, i'm steve kornacki, in for chris matthews, we are following development in charlotte today after the events with lamont scott. the video was provided to us by the attorney for the scott family and it shows scott's interaction with the police.

you can hear his wife's voice as the video plays out, it was disturbing, although you don't see the gun, you hear the gunshots. we do not know the circumstances that led up to this incident. >> don't shoot him. he has no weapon. he has no weapon. don't shoot him. [ bleep ]. >> don't shoot him. don't shoot him. he didn't do anything. >> drop the gun! drop the gun! >> he doesn't have a gun. he has a pbi, he is not going to do anything to you guys. he just took his medicine. [ bleep ] keith, don't let them break the windows. come on out of the car. >> drop the gun! should keith, don't do it. >> drop the gun. >> keith, get out of the car! keith, don't you do it. don't you do it. keith, keith. keith.

don't you do it! [ bleep ]. >> did you shoot him? did you shoot him? he better not be dead! he better not be dead, i know that much. i know that much he better not be dead. i'm not going to come here, i'm going to record you. i'm not going to come near you, i'm going to record you, he better be alive. how about that -- yes, we're over here at 9453 lexington court. these are the police officers that shot my husband and he better live. he better live. because he didn't do nothing to them. he -- ain't nobody touched nobody, so they all good. i know he better live. i know he better live. how about that, i'm not coming to you guys, so he better live. he better live. y'all hear this? you see this, right? he better live. he better live.

i swear he better live. don't shoot him. don't shoot him. he has no -- he better [ bleep ] live. he better live -- where is -- he better [ bleep ] live -- i ain't going nowhere. i'm in the same damn spot. that is okay, did y'all call the ambulance? did y'all call the ambulance? >> the city of charlotte has been racked by days of violence and protests since the news of the shooting. last night, protests remained largely peaceful. the family has called on police to release any and all videos they have. and hillary clinton echoed that request in a tweet saying charlotte should release the video of the lamont police shooting without delay, we must work without delay for justice, clinton announced she would visit the city of charlotte sunday, the day before the

debate. ron, the dispute this week between the family and the city in the aftermath of this has been whether he had a gun and whether that officer who shot him felt threatened. you have his wife saying he does not have a weapon. you have the police repeatedly saying drop the gun, drop the gun, obviously there is audio here, what is the family hopes that releasing this will achieve? >> well, i think releasing this tape is clearly emotional. you can hear it in this wife's voice and that will evoke some sort of reaction for people who are closely watching the developments in this case. one development we told you about just came out this afternoon from the mayor herself, jennifer roberts, echoing the statement that hillary clinton herself said about the release of the dash cam video. she said quote, i respect the investigative process and want to insure the integrity of the

office. i urge you to use every disposal to get this to the public as quickly as possible. this is a dramatic change from what the mayor had before with brian williams where she reiterated the government's position that they believe releasing the tape would not necessarily be beneficiary at this time. while the circumstances of the shooting from tuesday continue to be investigated. now, today, the local police department, the charlotte-mecklenberg transferred this over. this is an independent investigation because they are police officers involved in the shooting. the fbi now will make all stateme statements going forward with respect to this case. so now there is more pressure to have this public release of the body cam and dash cam videos that the family saw with their attorney along with the police department.

those were the only parties who saw the official tapes from the police officer's vantage point. as you mentioned, the tape released by mrs. scott doesn't show the shooting but it does in fact you hear the emotion and her pain following it. steve? >> you certainly do, nbc's ron mott on the ground there in charlotte, thank you for that. we're joined by law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh, and a member of the naacp, and katie peralta, with the observer. katie, this rain showers we're hearing about -- just in the last few minutes here the mayor of charlotte weighing in, hillary clinton weighing in. you have the family putting this video out in the hopes of prodding the police department to release the dash cam video and the body cam video at the ha -- what is your sense? >> honestly, i have no idea, it

does evoke a lot of emotion, i can say that for certain. people on all sides of this discussion will feel something when they listen to that tape. and i think you will see that playing out over the weekend, the protests, the demonstrations, i think it remains to be seen. what the cmp does, i think it's anybody's guess. >> jim cavanagh, what is your sense about the approximapolice whether keith scott had a weapon, his wife said he doesn't have the weapon. you have the officers saying repeatedly drop the gun, drop the gun, what is your reading here based on this? does it shed any light on it? >> i think it does, steve, the totality of the circumstances show that mr. scott had a gun. but having a gun does not mean that the shooting is justified.

so let's just back up for a minute. so the police chief said they found a gun there? there is a photograph that is released a few days ago of the gun at the scene and now this video is released. if this video is broken down very carefully you can see behind the officer in the red shirt just after mr. scott is shot, the object on the ground behind him. the officer moves his left foot and sort of straddles that item. i believe it's the pistol. it starts on the nbc frame about 105 seconds into it. 108 the officer moves his left leg back and straddles that pistol. he stays with it, later on, with the still shots taken the officer moved ahead to mr. scott and they're trying to render first aid to him and the gun is visible which showed up in the still shot. really, the totality shows there is a firearm involved. now, that does not mean the

shooting is justified. also there are a few frames that show early on about 50 seconds into it, mr. scott is back as he is coming back by the pickup truck. we heard the description of him walking backwards. it is very brief, you have to stop to see it. but you can see his back toward his wife. it looks like his hands are down from the way you can see it. so the officer who fired is going to have to articulate that there was some reasonable cause that he believed that his life or the life of others was in imminent threat or death or serious injury. you can't just shoot someone for having a gun. so you have to you know -- there would have to be some other reason to do that. but i think the call is about he did not have the gun, the evidence seems to be mounting against that pretty clearly. and the discussion needs to probably move on from that. >> collette forest, from the charlotte naacp, just from watching the video what do you see in the video?

>> to me, even hearing the speaker talk and speak to it there is confusion, because he says there is an object. but he later on says the officer had to move his leg to be clearly what is visible. i think that we need to have the video released so either to exonerate cmpd and to validate away they're saying that there is a gun present by mr. scott or to vindicate the scott family as they have said the entire time that he had no gun. we're talking about an individual that suffered a brain injury. that is when she says tbi. that is traumatic brain injury. i grew up with this family, mr. scott's mother worked with my aunt at a health care facility. mr. scott's family took care of my grandmother when she was

dying of cancer. so he comes doctor a health care type of family. so if you truly wish to move us past the point of peace release the video so it can either corroborate what cmpd is saying or it can vindicate what the scott family is saying. but the longer you dig into your refusal, i feel like you're only building the distrust that the community, african-american and others feel and are feeling towards the position. and as it relates to the recent reversal of mayor jennifer roberts, what we have to recognize she is up for re-election next year. so she is not looking at what is best for the community or what's best for the family. because if she did she would have immediately called for the release of the video. right now she is trying to salvage her campaign for next year and to try to restore some credibility to her mayor's

office. >> well, earlier today, the charlotte police chief released the information regarding the video. this is what he had to say. >> i know the expectation that the video footage can be the panacea, and i can tell you that is not quite the case. there are a lot of other factors that have to support and corroborate even what you may visually see. but the process is painstakingly slow sometimes. >> and katie peralta, i guess that is the question here, there is the issue of whether or not the video should be released. there is also the question of would the video resolve some of the tquestions here. the police are saying even if the video is police put out for the public to view there is ambiguity here. you have the police saying drop the weapon, the wife saying he

doesn't have a gun. the wife is saying don't do it, don't do it. would it necessarily clear things up to have the police video here, or is it a possibility we may never be able to fully piece it together. >> i think the last point you just made what we may never be able to piece it together may be a real possibility. it's now more than two days after the fact and there are so many questions that linger. and i think the longer they wait to act on this or to do anything or to be transparent, which they say to be, the longer they are waiting the more frustrating it is for people. it is still strange there are so many questions and if there is this evidence that could be available i don't know. you would think that maybe -- i don't know. it's just -- remains to be seen what they're going to do with this. but i think it's going to certainly cause a lot of heated debate here in charlotte.

>> and again -- >> and the chief -- >> sorry, yes, go ahead. collette. >> because chief putney himself is saying that the video doesn't resolve anything exhaustively and there is ambiguity, then why was his first statement, let's do an examination right now, let's do an exhaustive search of evidence and gather the facts before we speak to it. but straight out the gate he was definitively saying he had a gun. he was definitively saying it was pointing towards the officer. so if he is now saying backing up as jennifer roberts says there was a lot of ambiguity and will not answer those questions, then why did you come out of the gate so definitively? >> jim cavanagh, can you speak to this, about the police chief making statements about this,

saying the video is ambiguous, is that unusual? from a law enforcement standpoint what was going on there? >> yeah, i think the police probably should have held a statement, that was a good point made there by the speaker. because he may be getting reports up the chain of command that the officer who fired had a gun pointing at him and he is reporting that. really what he needs to do is say we're going to investigate it and look at the video itself. i think the video may show that it will turn out to be a pistol. they will have the pistol recovered, maybe traced. i think you see it in the new iphone video. but it's possible mr. scott never pointed the gun or you can't see that in the video. so then the officer would have to articulate why he fired, did he see the movement, he would have to articulate the reason he

pulled the trigger. i believe mr. scott was confused here. because the first vehicles that arrived that shot into the parking lot there were unmarked. there is a marked cruiser that comes in but initially there is some unmarked suburbans and van s. and you know he is sitting in the truck facing away from him. i think he becomes confused, maybe thinks it's a robbery. you know, i've been on many raids like that, people don't know what is going on, maybe he was confused, or medicated, just not acting right. so maybe there was confusion by mr. scott, who may have legally possessed the gun. i'm not saying having the gun means you can shoot him. i am just saying the facts are mounting there was a gun there. it's in the video, you hear the officer's command, there is an officer looking right in. looks like it's there in still pictures. so i think probably there was a pistol here, the question is

whether there was a justified use of force by the officer who fired. >> okay, thank you, mr. cavanagh, we have to get into a break, but again i appreciate you all here. obviously hillary clinton going there this sunday. certainly we have not heard the last of this. and we'll be keep iing an eye o what is happening in charlotte in the next hour. and more on the presidential debate coming up this monday. both hillary clinton and donald trump are off the campaign trail as they enter her preparatithei, and how can clinton beat trump in the first debate? and what does trump need to do if he wants to put a win on the board? we'll talk to those who are looking at the biggest stage, showing clinton leading nationally. maybe trump needs to do something to close that gap at the debate. but we've gone inside the

numbers showing people have serious questions about whether he is a plausible president. and finally, the "hardball" table is going to be here to tell me and you three things about the presidential debate that you may not know. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

welcome back to "hardball." we are just three days away from the first presidential debate between donald trump and hillary clinton, in this crucial period, the candidates seem to be preparing in very different ways. that's going to start at 7:00 eastern time, and then, 9:00 eastern, the main event, lester holt moderating the presidential debate. when that is over, chris will be back with post-game analysis and late-night coverage. all of it coming up monday night here on msnbc. wehle be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." we are just three days away from the first presidential debate between donald trump and hillary clinton, in this crucial period, the candidates seem to be preparing in very different ways.

hillary clinton has spent three days off the trail this week. she's been studying up on debate material, watching video of trump's past debate performances. according to "the new york times," the goal is to get under his skin. quote, mrs. clinton has a thick dossier on mr. trump including analysis about his psychological makeup, that clinton advisers described as critical to understanding how to knock mr. trump off balance. and assumptions about his makeup. mrs. clinton has concluded that catching mr. trump in a lie during the debate is not enough to beat him. she needs the huge television audience to see him temperamentally unfit for the presidency and that she has the power to unhinge him. trump's approach seems more lax. here was his campaign manager, kellyanne conway earlier today. >> i don't think he's locked up in a cabin for two weeks, like other people have been or currently are, cramming their heads with microchips and binders. >> is he -- >> he's a brilliant man. >> is he doing mock debates? and if so, who's playing the part of hillary?

>> no one is playing the part of hillary. we all know hillary clinton very well. she's easily flummoxed. she did not see bernie sanders coming in the primaries this year. she did not do well in debates against barack obama in 2008. and she never saw -- she never anticipated our comeback in the last five weeks. >> and for more now, i'm joined by hugh hewitt, host of the hugh hewitt show on salem radio network. and jonathan capehart, opinion writer for "the washington post." both are msnbc political analysts. hugh hewitt, the trump campaign loves this contrast. the idea that clinton is huddled with a team of researchers and psychologists and they're spending all this time on it, and meanwhile, trump's sort of just going to show up and be himself. that's the contrast they like. do you think trump's actual approach, though, is that hands-off, or is he quietly behind the scenes, doing more studying than we realized? >> when i was on the stage, when i was there four times with him, is he is a practiced television professional, who spent hundreds of hours on stage. but he is not a binder breaker, as kellyanne conway just did.

i think secretary clinton's greatest strength if she comes off -- everybody has gone to high school. she is the toughest teacher in high school. i don't think she should try to bait him. she will kill him. he will kill her if she tries to bait him, because he's the better performer. she's the better student. >> what do you think of that, jonathan capehart risk for hillary clinton if she shows up with these attacks designed to get under his skin and unhinge him? >> look, i think that secretary clinton is in what i call a damned if ya situation. damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. damned if she tries to overtly get under his skin, if she goes on the attack first, personally attack him. there's a danger of him either -- her either looking like the ap teacher hidden with the hidden heart of gold or as someone said, i think on our air, that, you know, she might look like tracy fleck from the

movie "election," someone that's unctuous and annoying, but very smart and hypermotivated. and i think there's a lot of psy ops going on here, where everyone's communicating either in print or on television what their candidate is or isn't doing. but i think donald trump runs the risk, at a time when polls show that people view him as someone who's temperamentally unfit and not ready to be president, to sort of wing it on a night when many people think that the biggest television audience ever will be watching, two people debate to see who should sit in the oval office, arguably, the most important and toughest job in the world. >> yeah, well, hugh, so this is -- hillary clinton had a little different preparation for this than donald trump, and in the democratic primaries, it was basically one on one up there with bernie sanders. she got more of an experience like she's going to have on monday night. and the republican primaries, ten candidates, commercial breaks, trump could talk for two minutes, disappear for ten minutes. this in many ways is a new setting for him, to be in a more

rigorous environment like that, he's going to have to fill a lot more time. if he's trying to appear presidential, it's less about attacking the opponent, more about proving substance. do you think he's up to it, filling 90 minutes, in a way he didn't have to in the primaries? >> i think so. i think he's physically up to the task. it will not even be a problem for him. i don't know if she's fully recovered yet from the pneumonia. we'll see whether that is there. but i've got to say for the parents out there who just heard jonathan reference the movie "election," don't have your kids watch that movie. that's not really the movie you want them to learn about elections from. but she's a prohibitive favorite. the patriots are going into play the browns a week later, she is the patriots. donald trump, on the oddsmaker side are the browns. going into the debate. >> even if the pats are on their fourth string quarterback by then. jonathan? >> steve, a couple of things to keep in mind. this will be terrain that donald trump has not trod before. it is a 90-minute debate, no commercials, but the other thing that people haven't clued in on

is no audience reaction. if you looked at all of those debates, between donald trump and the 15, 16 other people, he fed off of the applause or the boos or the laughter or the cheers from the audience. there will be none of that. that is donald trump's oxygen. and whether he can sustain a 90-minute performance one-on-one with no commercial breaks, without the ability to hide remains to be seen. i'm not convinced. >> all right. jonathan capehart, hugh hewitt, thanks for the time. up next, we've got two people who know what it's like to get ready for the biggest stage in presidential politics. that is straight ahead. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

i'm milissa rehberger. with breaking news, a gunman has killed at least three people and critically wounded others at a mall in seattle. the shooting took place at the cascade mall in burlington, washington, police say the gunman is still at large armed with a rifle, last seen walking towards i-5 away from the mall. police prescribed the man as hispanic with a skinny build and black messy hair matching this image, he was wearing black clothing. back to "hardball." >> welcome back to "hardball." the outcome of the first presidential debate between hillary clinton and donald trump

depends in large part on whether they can successfully execute their strategies once they come face to face on monday night. republican pollster frank lutz says for hillary clinton to win, she is going to need to prove her case that donald trump is unfit for office. here's his advice to clinton. says, quote, her mission is to demonstrate that every time he talks on the global stage, his words could defile the office, embarrass the country, and yes, even provoke a war. your objective should be to put donald trump and everything he has stood for on trial. as for trump, he needs to break that narrative and deflect clinton's attempts to box him. conservative commentator pat buchanan wrote, trump has to convince a plurality of voters who seem prepared to vote for him that he is not a terrible risk and that he will be a president for which they can be proud. the trump on stage at hofstra university will have 90 minutes to show that the malicious cartoon of trump is a libelous lie. but he says, trump does not have to show a mastery of foreign and domestic policy details. he has to meet and exceed expectations, which are not

terribly high. i'm joined now by msnbc political analyst, rick tyler, who played donald trump in mock debates, when he was an adviser to the cruz campaign, as well as former michigan governor, jennifer granholm, senior adviser to the pro-hillary super pac, correct the record. well, rick tyler, with an introduction like that, let's start with you. if you want to prepare a candidate to face donald trump on this stage, you've done it. the clinton campaign's trying to do it right now. what's your advice to them? >> i think it's probably feeding his own words to him. and that is, she needs to memorize a lot of his quotes about foreign policy and some of the absurdities that he's said and just challenge him on that. having said that, i think that she has to convince the country that she is likable and honest and is in command of the facts. those are her strengths. donald trump has to convince people he has the temperament to be president. my speculation and my guess is that donald trump will show up and be disciplined for this 90-minute debate.

and because he's graded on a bell curve, he'll probably perform very well. >> jennifer granholm, let's pick it up there. if that's what happens, if kellyanne conway, who's been trying to discipline donald trump, she's been doing a pretty good job keeping him off twitter, i would say. he certainly toned it down on there if that is the standard. if she succeeds in getting him to show up at this debate and doing what rick tyler is talking about, that he's there, trying to look presidential, he's not trying to look presidential, we're not necessarily seeing the primary season donald trump that we saw in the debates, what does hillary clinton do? does she try to prod him, try to provoke him, or just try to be more presidential than him on that stage? >> well, i'm sure there will be some element of trying to play his words back to him and see how he responds. i'm sure there'll be some element of drawing out and calling him out on the lies that he's told in the past. i betcha there'll be some kind of debate bingo card, which lists the top ten donald trump lies, like, you know, that he

opposed the war in iraq or opposed going into libya. but what this is really for her is a chance in an unfiltered way to talk to people and say why she is going to fight for them. what is in her heart, to come across, and i think rick is right about this, to come across in a way that counters the impression that the right has tried to build up about her, that she's not likable, but that she really is. she's got a sense of humor. everybody knows she knows the policy. she's got that down. but she has a chance to speak directly to people about why she's going to fight for them. and why he is completely unacceptable. >> what's the key, rick tyler? you've studied him. you've gone head to head with him. what's the key? if you want to throw donald trump off his game in one of these debates, what do you do? >> i think that's exactly what he's prepared for. feed his words to him, where it's obvious that what he has said is wrong and she's trying to make a fool of him, or to

mock him, somehow. that would normally get under his skin. it may get under his skin, but he can't allow it to. and i think that's probably what his debate team is coaching him on, that if he gives in to that temptation, that he's going to lose. >> and jennifer granholm, let me ask you about the expectations that we have a pat buchanan quote there. i keep thinking back to george w. bush, al gore, those 2000 debates, those fall 2000 debates. the expectation gap heading into those debates. al gore was supposed to be this peerless debater. george w. bush was supposed to be sort of clumsy on stage. those were the perceptions when people saw them head-to-head, they were surprised in many cases. they say, well, bush was a little better than i thought, and gore was maybe a little weak. that disparity ended up benefiting bush. are you concerned that could happen with trump here, too? >> of course! correct the record has done a compilation of all of the network anchors who have admitted that he's being graded on a curve. so, we're hopeful that, you know, stations like msnbc, nbc, are going to -- >> but jennifer, can i ask

you -- can i ask you, not from the standpoint of a top-down, what the media tells people to think, perspective. i'm telling you, from the perspective of americans who have seen a version of donald trump in the primary debates, who was very sort of in your face with opponents, if a different donald trump shows up at this debate, just to the everyday voter watching them on tv, forget what i say or anybody says in the media, are you concerned how that voter is going to react? >> yeah, but here's the thing. she has an opportunity to point this out. the man has spent his whole life conning people. and here he is, conning you again. mr. con man is now conning you into thinking that he can be presidential. this is one time. this is 90 minutes. but remember, he's got a full record that we can continue to remind you about. don't be fooled. >> the only problem with that, governor, is that, you know, there's going to about 100 million people that are going to tune into this debate and a significant number of them not paying that close of attention, not like you and i, and there's no context. there's not going to be enough time to explain on either side,

you know, to prosecute, if you like, hillary's lack of leadership as secretary of state or donald trump's many scandals over the years. not to develop them. so people may come and look at donald trump, and if he is disciplined, and they'll see a donald trump they didn't expect. it's always about expectations. if they come to say, this is the guy everyone's been talking about, seems kind of reasonable to me. and my prediction is, both of the candidates will probably do fairly well in the debate. i don't think there'll be any defining moments of a winner or a loser. and that's usually how most debates go. it will be the post-narrative of the debate. the day after. that's the day the campaigns can never forget. they've got to make sure they get their story out there. and whatever narrative develops out of that, that's who will win the debate. >> yeah, i think that's true. >> rick tyler and jennifer granholm, i've got end to it there. thank you both. i appreciate it. some good pre-game talk right there. up next, the big challenges facing donald trump heading into that first debate. hillary clinton has got the lead in the polls now and a majority

of americans say they have serious questions about whether trump can actually be president. the plausibility test. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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all right. welcome back to "hardball." we're just three days away now from the first presidential debate between hillary clinton and donald trump and heading into that big showdown, let's take a look at where the race stands right now and what the big challenges are facing the candidates, as they head into it. let's give you, first of all, nationally, it's good news for hillary clinton this week. remember, last week, the stories were about the polls tightening. maybe it was the fallout from hillary clinton's health scare at ground zero on the 9/11 anniversary, but this week, look at this. the past three national polls, a new one out just tonight, mcclatchy and marist puts her up by seven points. our own nbc news/"wall street journal" poll, seven. our survey monkey online poll puts her ahead again. these are healthy leads that clinton seems to be

reestablishing an average, all the polls out there, a three-point lead. that's trending up and we can also show you this. the polls we have out there raise a real question about where the ceilings are for these candidates. how high can they climb in their support? and really the question is, is hillary clinton's ceiling higher than donald trump. and if you go back to the beginning of september, you can count nine polls where hillary clinton has scored 48% or higher. nine polls where she's hit at least 48%. how many for donald trump? zero. so hillary clinton has been able to climb higher in these polls so far than donald trump has. when the race has tightened, it hasn't so much been because donald trump's numbers are rising, it's been because hillary clinton's support has been falling. so that could be key as we get to election day. is that offering us a clue about whether the ceiling is just too low for donald trump? that's something to think about. also this. think about this heading into the debates. some basic questions voters have about these candidates. a simple question here, is the candidate qualified to be

president? look at that advantage hillary clinton has over donald trump, just 30% of voters right now saying donald trump is qualified to be president. so there's a plausibility test there. a plausibility problem right now for donald trump. that's something he has to address at this debate. how about this, as well. the question, does the candidate not respect ordinary americans? hillary clinton's numbers not good this. 48% say she does not respect ordinary americans. the trump campaign has been trying to drive that message home focusing on her deplorables comment. but donald trump, 60% of americans say he doesn't respect ordinary americans. that's a challenge for him. how about and this one. we don't see numbers like this in presidential races, but we do this year. the question is, is the candidate racist? half the voters right now say that donald trump is racist. just 21% for hillary clinton. of course, with the news in charlotte this week, the news in tulsa, the issues of race and policing, likely to come up in this debate.

that number probably worth keeping in mind, as well. so some of the numbers to have in your heads as we head to the debate. right now, we're going to head over to the "hardball" roundtable. mckay coppins, a senior political writer with buzz feed. and we have a national political reporter for bloomberg. and i've been too slow walking over here, so i'll keep talking as i climb the stage, take my seat, and say hello, mckay coppins. all those numbers we just ran through there. is it realistic to think after 90 minutes of debate on monday night against hillary clinton, that that number of people who say he's not qualified to be president, that that falls? that the number of people who say he's a racist, that that falls. can he make progress on monday night? >> he may be able to chip away at the margins. but when half the voters, 50% say that a candidate is racist, that's a pretty heavy charge to level in this country. and i think most voters take that very seriously. and i don't think most people watching a debate for 90 minutes, no matter how well a candidate performs, is going to change their minds overnight.

if he turns over a new leaf or something in this debate and continues it through election day, maybe he can chip away at it a little bit more, but i don't think that you can fundamentally change the electorate's perception of you with one debate. >> and this is something i've been wondering about, because we talk so much about, these are the two most unpopular nominees ever put forward by the parties. and hillary clinton's personal negative numbers, unfavorable numbers, they are through the roof. donald trump's in most polls, they're through the roof and even a little bit more through the roof than hers. they're both very hard. my question when i start seeing poll numbers like that, on the question of racism, i don't know if this can really be measured in polling. is there a possibility, though -- he is more unlikable, he is more severely objectionable to people than she is. they may not like both of them, but the degree to which they dislike him is more intense. >> absolutely. and that's what the clinton team is hoping, right? they're hoping they can make the case. this new ad out today, where she has this horrific series of statements that he made about

women. and she has these young girls watching these statements. it is horrifying for any woman or father or brother to watch this thing. that's what they're hoping to do, say, even if you don't trust her, even if you have issues with hillary clinton, you cannot trust him. he is far, far worse. and the trump campaign is hoping to do the same thing with hillary clinton. they're hoping to say that, you know, i may not be your favorite republican, but i am far better that that clinton or any clinton, because that's something that brings republicans together. they're hoping that's true and we'll have to see. >> you mentioned the ad the clinton campaign is out, we have that. let's take a look at what the clinton campaign is putting up here. >> i'd look her right in that fat ugly face of hers. she's a slob. she ate like a pig. a person who's flat-chested is very hard to be a 10. does she have a good body? no. does she have a fat [ bleep ]? absolutely. >> you treat women with respect? >> i can't say that either. >> all right.

>> uh. >> all right. so by the same token here, with all these negatives we just went through with donald trump, all the negatives the clinton campaign sees there, he's within striking distance of her, especially when you start looking aft some of these battleground state polls, he is not that far behind. so he needs something, but he maybe doesn't need that much. >> well, he needs number one to break clinton's firewall in colorado, pennsylvania and virginia. those are the three states she's maintained a lead even as she's slipped in other states. he needs to maintain his lead, and flip one of those. and the only way he can do that, with he's got to pass the plausibility test. he's got to move those numbers. if not, if this many people cannot imagine him as president, don't think he has the basic qualifications for the job, that's a very difficult thing to fix and that's what he's got to try to do. otherwise, he can get very close to her in recent polls, but he's not going to be able to flip these swing states. >> the roundtable is staying with us. up next, ted cruz finally comes around.

he is backing donald trump despite their ugly, and that is putting it mildly, primary battle. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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we're back with the roundtable. mckay, jeanne and sahil. we've come a long way from when donald trump accused ted cruz's father may have had something to do with the kennedy assassination. >> he was with lee harvey oswald prior to kennedy being shot. i mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. and nobody even brings it up. they don't even talk about that. that was reported and nobody talks about it. but i think it's horrible. >> after refusing to endorse trump at the republican convention in july ted cruz today posted on his facebook page that he will be voting for donald trump this november. mckay, what's going on? was ted cruz surprised at the reaction of the republican party to what he did at the convention? >> yeah, well, so, yes, i have heard from people close to ted cruz that he was not expecting quite such a dramatic reaction at the rnc.

but i think what also is going on here is ted cruz is up for re-election in 2018. he's just by nature of the very combative, divisive first term in the senate he has had, he does not have a ton of allies in the state republican party or the national republican party, the kind of allies that an incumbent traditionally has. he is worried about a primary and needs to make sure the conservatives are still on his side and i think made the calculation that supporting trump is a necessity to keep those people on his side. >> will it do it, though, or is it too late, too transparent? >> it's a politician playing politics. nobody is surprised by this. we saw marco rubio, i'm not running, now i'm running, i can't stand donald trump, i'll go speak at the convention. i do think voters actually do forgive them. i do think it will work. because i don't think anybody is surprised when a politician says, it's in my best interests now to endorse. so i'm going to do it. so i don't think anybody will

look askance at that. i think it will work for them. >> the roundtable is sticking with us. up next these three will tell me something i don't know. that shouldn't be too hard. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. wow, that's great. wait. how did you get in my kitchen? oh, i followed a raccoon in through your doggie door. [raccoon chattering] [gasps] get a better mortgage on your schedule. not the bank's. lendingtree. when banks compete, you win. just think of him as a big cat! [raccoon chatter] with rabies.

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impact in my life. we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. tell me something i don't know. >> so a new study out today by the randy corporation provides a

rare glimpse into the candidate's health care plans. hillary clinton's plan is expected to ensure 9 million people at the cost of 90 million. donald trump's plan to repeal and replace obamacare is expected to add $3 about billion to the deficit and cost up to 20 million americans their coverage. >> something we might be hearing about in that debate. >> we had a chance to talk to congressman brick lazio who was famously was the one who approached hillary clinton on the podium in the new york senate race and it was just fascinating to hear him talk about his recollection as to what happened, and what he says his campaign manager approached him before, said your numbers look good, but you got to be tough out there. you can't let her get the better of you. that's when he approached and it wasn't rehearsed and he said, i regret it because it was never me. that's all we remember from that debate, which goes to show no matter what you say, it doesn't matter. it's how you present and you got to be yourself. >> you think he ever gets tired of talking about that? >> hates it. poor guy. >> my colleague at buzzfeed covers the hillary clinton campaign. ruby kramer. she has a great in depth story

about a debate inside the clinton campaign and among democrats how to approach donald trump from a messaging standpoint and the ultimate decision to disaggregate him from the rest of the republican party saying he's even more extreme than the rest of the republicans. this is causing a lot of waves in progressive and democratic circles who are worried about down-ballot races and the implications on the rest of the election. this is something we'll keep hearing about. check out the story. >> mckay coppins, jeanne zaino, sahil kapur, thank you. all in with chris haes starts now. good evening from new york, i am ari melber. tonight, the wife of the man shot and killed by police in charlotte. this is the fourth night since the shooting by police that has caused a response of t