this sunday it's game on, one day away from perhaps the most watched debate in american history. >> i'm going to be very respectful of her. >> you have to be prepared for, like, wacky stuff that comes at you. >> will this be the moment that determines who becomes the next president? donald trump adviser general mike flynn and the hillary clinton campaign chairman, john podesta, both join me live. plus, debate prep school. one moment can change everything. >> i can't. the third one i can't. sorry. oops. >> how the presidential candidates plan to knock their opponents off stride. i'll talk to two former campaign managers who have been inside the war-room before.

also, how does a man who says this about donald trump -- >> this man is a pathological liar. they bully. a narcissist at a level i don't think this country's ever seen. >> -- wind up endorsing him? what's really behind ted cruz's surprise change of heart? and the two police shootings this week. >> don't shoot him. he has no weapon. >> peaceful protests are growing around the country as we grapple with the question, what can be done to keep this from happening? joining me for insight and analysis are doris kearns good win. host on the salem radio network, hugh hewitt. and mike murphy. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. it's an nfl sunday. really, this feels like a pregame show. the big game is tomorrow night

at hofstra university on new york's long island. with a super bowl size audience expected. usually the first debate is the most important campaign moment until the next debate. probably not this time. hillary clinton comes in with nervous democrats feeling a little bit better about things. four national polls this week showed clinton up in a four-way race. in three of the polls she's up by six points though in today's "washington post"/abc poll, she's up by just two. battleground state polls show donald trump doing better and having a legitimate path to 270. trump has never been more competitive than he is now. there's a sense if clinton doesn't knock him out tomorrow, she may never be able to before november. both sides are already engaging in psychological gamesmanship. the clinton campaign has placed mark cuban, a huge trump critic, up front in the audience as a way to rattle trump. in response, trump has visited gennifer flowers to sit in the front row, not making this up. that gennifer flowers who, of course, had an extramarital affair with bill clinton

sometime in the '80s. one thing we know for sure, the two candidates are taking very different approaches getting ready for tomorrow night's big debate. while trump huddles at trump tower, clinton is hunkering down in and around her chappaqua home both preparing for the most presidential debate in decades. >> you are going to hear donald trump doing a lot of trash talking. hillary is a tough person. >> the campaign is trying to steer it to temperament. >> i would look her in the fat ugly face of hers. she's a slob. she ate like a pig. >> on stage, clinton will try get under trump's skin. >> excuse me, i've given my answer, lyin' ted. >> the challenge for clinton, predicting which trump will show up. >> people ask me that question, oh, you're going to go out there and do this and that. i don't know that. >> will trump lose his cool, be impatient, be too subdued or be crass? >> he referred to my hands, if they're small, something else must be small. i guarantee you there's no problem. i guarantee you.

>> or will trump be able to rise above the temperament questions and throw clinton off her game? >> he needs to worry about, first of all, not taking the bait from her and following her attacks. second of all, trump needs to make sure that he's ready to talk about policy in a way that matches her. >> trump is watching videos to spot clinton's vulnerabilities. but doing no formal mock debates >> mr. trump, how's debate prep going right now? >> i'm here. >> his campaign trying to turn his restlessness with preparation into an asset. >> i don't think here's locked up in a cabin for two weeks like other people have been or currently are cramming their heads with microchips and binders. >> but trump can't afford to stumble on substance and he has to avoid looking like a bully. as for clinton, she's not afraid of going negative. >> your profusion of comments about your feelings toward president obama are a little strange, given what you said

about him in 2011. >> and she has had her best performances when opponents came off as snarky -- >> i don't think i'm that bad. >> you're likable enough, hillary. >> thanks. >> -- or rude. >> we'll shake on this. >> i want your signature. >> the challenge for clinton, she can sometimes become defensive particularly on questions of character. >> i communicated about classified material on a wholly separate system. >> and she can get tangled up with her lawyerly explanations. >> i think for hillary clinton, sometimes for that wall seems like it's about 25 feet wide for people, and that the more that she lets people through the doors, the better off she's going to be. >> as both candidates prepare for the most consequential day of this campaign. >> while you can't win an election in a debate, you can certainly lose one. >> joining me now is the chairman of the clinton campaign, john podesta. welcome back to "meet the press." >> good to be with you. >> clinton has prepared for 38 debates pop.

how is this one different? >> she takes the debate seriously, respects the american public. for her, it's laying down the policies she think will improve the economy, for everyone, not just for people at the top. she has a challenge because donald trump is, says things that aren't true. he comes in and politifact rated him liar of the year last year. just this week, "the new york times" did a graphic of the 12 loppers of the week. so she's got to be able to both make that positive case but also not let donald trump get away with what he's likely to do which is to make stuff up. >> it's clear that temperament, you believe, is his achilles' heel. i want to play for you a montage of ads that you guys are running. 14 ads you guys have unveiled

since august 1st. 13 of them have to do with trump 's temperament. here's a little sample. >> donald trump doesn't see people like me. he just sees disability. >> how would you answer that, father, what sacrifice you made for your country? >> i think i've made a lot of sacrifices. built great structures. i've had tremendous success. >> he's a race baiting xenophobic religious bigot. >> all can takes is one wrong move. >> i would bomb the [ bleep ] out of them. just one. >> john podesta, what if the donald trump you're portraying in the tv ads is not the donald trump that shows up on stage monday night? >> look, where is only one donald trump and i think he's run the race in a way that those ads, i think, fairly, you know, show, but i think, again, you showed an ad about disabilities. i think what hillary wants to do is do what she did this week which is tell that positive case about how we build an inclusive economy, make space for everyone. donald trump will have to think about what he said in the past.

his disparagement of that reporter that you saw in the screen with disabilities. going to have to think about the names he's called to gold-star families, to mexicans, to muslims. and, you know, he may try to -- he's a good television performer, so he may try to adjust for that in the debate, but the reality is he's run his whole campaign that way. >> is your goal of this debate is to get under his skin? is that why you gave mark cuban a ticket right in the front row? >> no, i think mark cuban is one of the business leaders who was never involved in partisan politics who's endorsed hillary because he thinks she'll do better for the -- for the economy, and i think that, you know, you saw his reaction which is to do his favorite sport which is to dive in the sewer and go for a swim. but i think that, you know, we're looking forward to him. he's been a very strong surrogate for her from the time he went to his hometown of pittsburgh and gave her a

full-throated endorsement that she'd be best for the economy. >> you referred to diving into the sewer. you believe that inviting gennifer flowers is diving into the sewer? >> look, i'll leave it to mr. trump to decide what he's going to do here tonight, but i think that, you know, and what he'll do tomorrow night. but i think that, you know, he's kind of predictable when you poke him a little bit, he comes back. >> okay. >> and attacks whoever's doing it. that's, you know, that's why he's got in so much trouble when he attacked the gold-star family, khan family after our convention. that's what he does, who he s that's why he's dangerous and unpredictable. >> one of the things hillary clinton has to try to do is restore this issue of trust with the voters. i want to play a debate clip from earlier this week. it was a congressional debate that featured charlie crist, former republican governor turned democrat now in florida. he was asked a question about supporting hillary clinton. here's his answer and the reaction to his answer.

>> the thing i like most about her is i believe that she is steady. i believe she is strong. i believe that she is honest and i look forward to voting for her. >> it was when he said the word, honest, the crowd groans. you hear laughter. this issue of honest and trustworthiness, how much progress can she make monday on restoring trust and how does she do it? >> she has to talk directly to the american people. what's honest about her, from the day she got, left law school, she has been a champion for women, for children, for families. she's done it all her life. she's gotten real results for people in contrast, donald trump's been all about himself. but she's got to tell people who she wants to do for them. and i think she can do that by looking directly at them and talking about a future that's going to be brighter, more optimistic, and, you know, improving their lives. >> very quickly, today's "new york times" has an extensive

report on the ties of hillary clinton to goldman sachs. and it talks about various ways that they've been very close, whether it's the paid speeches, whether it was supporting a philanthropic operation that goldman sachs did while she was at the state department. does this undermine secretary clinton's credibility that she can be tough on wall street but she has so many close ties to one of wall street's biggest brands? >> i thought that story, again, was false equivalency. what it said, she supported a philanthropic program that gave 10,000 women entrepreneurs around the world a chance to get started but what she's done is put forward what everyone has agreed including "the new york times," itself, that is the most comprehensive program to regulate wall street. in contrast, donald trump wants to wipe away dodd/frank, everything that's been done to make sure that wall street doesn't wreck main street again. what she wants to do is make

sure that there's no institution too big to fail and no individual too big to jail. so i think she has pursued a very aggressive path on wall street. >> john podesta, campaign chair of clinton campaign, thanks for your time this morning and sharing your views. appreciate it. >> thanks, chuck. joining me now, retired general michael flynn, former director of defense intelligence agency and top adviser to donald trump. he's also be in the room for some debate prep sessions. general flynn, welcome back to the show, sir. >> thanks, chuck. thanks for having me. >> let me start with this -- the public perception is that donald trump isn't doing the same type of preparation for this debate that hillary clinton is. i think. kellyanne conway the campaign manager said he's not been locked up in a cabin for two weeks. eric trump, his son, suggested he doesn't need to be rehearsing flash cards. are you concerned, though, that the preparation is enough? >> yeah, so a couple things. the very last thing that john podesta just said is no

individual too big to jail, that should include people like hillary clinton. i mean, five people around her have had -- have been given immunity to include her former chief of staff. when you are given immunity, that means you probably committed a crime so, you know, i don't know how he can sit there and say something like that with all of the things that have been going around, just swirling around hillary clinton with her e-mail. in terms of preparation, to answer your question, donald trump has been preparing. you know, it's like where's hillary clinton this week? donald trump has been in pennsylvania, he's been in florida, he's been in ohio. i was with him last night in virginia. he is out speaking to the american public. large groups, small groups. you know, it's -- that's how he is bringing his message to the american public. that's why you're seeing this huge shift in the polls, this huge momentum shift. one of the things i think, chuck, you ought to do, not talk an where the polls are today, where they are a week ago, two weeks ago. huge, huge shift.

it's really -- the way we feel, the way i feel is there's a huge shift in momentum. the american public are starting to really wake up. >> you are confident that he is going to be able to pass this commander in chief test? as you know, so many of your colleagues in the national security world, whether it's been at former pentagon staffers, former bush administration appointees, former foreign service, letter after letter, just hundreds of former national security professionals who say they cannot endorse donald trump. how does he convince a public that he is up to the job when so many folks who have worked closely with you, closely with others, believe he's unfit for the job? >> yeah, and there are hundreds -- there are hundreds of people that have said just the opposite thing about donald trump's ability and, you know, ability to be commander in chief, ability to be the president of the united states. and to kind of move this country forward in the right direction. you know, a lot of those names on those lists, and i look very closely at these things. some of the things they say. they offer no solutions and

these are people that represent the past. they represent so many of the failed policies and the -- really the stupid decisions that were made that have kept us in this perpetual conflict that we are in in the middle east and places like afghanistan. i mean, god, we have to cherish our military and our veterans. the decisions that put us there, many of those people that are on those lists, chuck, are the ones that actually put us there. >> well, i have to ask you this. you're a general. does he know more than you? he said he knows more than the generals when it comes to isis. >> yeah, let me tell you, i have been advising donald trump for over a year now, and he is a great listener. one of the things that he has -- what we have in this country is we have a deficit of leadership. donald trump brings a strategic leadership, a sense of who we are as america, and how do we make america first? how do we bring america forward? how do we improve our economy? how do we improve our military? so, i mean, there's so many things we have to get fixed in our country right now. i mean, just look at what's

going on in the current situation, chuck. >> general, let me -- i want to follow up, stay on the debate here. in response to the invitation that hillary clinton made to mark cuban, donald trump tweeted yesterday that he has invited gennifer flowers to attend the debate. she has accepted the invitation. what can you tell about that invite? should we expect to see her monday night in the front row there? >> well, here's what i'll tell you about the debate. it's obviously going to be probably the most watched show in the history of tv. donald trump has been out speaking to the american public and they've been listening and they've been hearing and you said it right up front of you and talked about this shift in the polls. the momentum is on donald trump's side. thank god for that. we need a new direction in this country -- >> general, can you confirm this gennifer flowers talk? that's what the question was. has she been invited to do this and is it -- do you feel it's appropriate? >> i would just go with what you have seen and we'll wait to see what happens tomorrow night. >> you think it's appropriate?

>> i'm sorry? >> do you think it's appropriate to invite gennifer flowers to the debate? >> was it appropriate to invite mark cuban? i heard what john podesta said about mark cuban. i mean, he's not a legitimate person. why is he invited? you know, again, i would leave this tit for tat, you know, this is about the big issues that this country is worried about. i'm worried about this. that's the reason i'm sitting here this morning with you. i mean, our country needs to go in a completely different direction. it is failing right now in many ways, in many places. >> okay. >> we're struggling. the difference between the bubble of washington, d.c., and the rest of america is such a vast -- there's such a gap right now, chuck. and people of this country want to see big leadership. and that's what donald trump provides. >> we'll be watching tomorrow night. general flynn, thanks for coming on. appreciate you sharing your views. >> thanks a lot. later in the broadcast, we'll go inside the debate prep war-rooms. i'll talk to two campaign managers have who prepped candidates on how to get under the other candidate's skin.

but when we come back, -- >> this man is a pathological liar. a narcissist at a level i don't think this country's ever seen. >> what's really behind ted cruz's decision to endorse donald trump after all? and to get you all psyched up for tomorrow night's big debate, we're going to be showing you some highlights from both donald trump and hillary clinton. debate moments they've participated in beginning with this scene from one of clinton's 2008 debates with then-senator barack obama. >> what can you say to the voters of new hampshire on this stage tonight who see a resume and like it but are hesitating on the likability issue? where they seem to like barack obama more. >> well, that hurts my feelings.

keeping the power lines clear,my job to protect public safety, while also protecting the environment. the natural world is a beautiful thing, the work that we do helps us protect it. public education is definitely a big part of our job, to teach our customers about the best type of trees to plant around the power lines. we want to keep the power on for our customers. we want to keep our community safe. this is our community, this is where we live. we need to make sure that we have a beautiful place for our children to live. together, we're building a better california.

welcome back. the panel is with us. mike murphy and is doing something that very few people do. he launched a podcast. gwen ifill. more podcasts coming from her. doris kearns goodwin who has fantastic and long interview with president obama in the issue of "vanity fair." hugh hewitt, host on the salem radio network. well, before we get to the debate, i want to spend a couple minutes on the ted cruz news. as you know, this is what ted cruz said about -- said about donald trump, fiery donald trump, about three days before he dropped out. here's a montage of it.

>> donald, you're a sniffling coward, leave heidi the hell alone. this man is a pathological liar. a bully. a narcissist at a level i don't think this country's ever seen. >> mike murphy, he's now an endorser of ted cruz. >> i think the editors of believe and absolutely nothing magazine have a new cover now. he made a big move at the convention, some people thought it was almost to the point of rudeness, but he clearly distanced from trump. he claimed conservative principles. i think there's a case to make there. and now threatened with a primary in texas, excuse me, a 180. it's very cynical. >> can he recover from this? this chief superpac donors became trump's chief donors. kellyanne conway worked with the mercer family on the superpacs your cruz. you have people like mike mccaul thinking about challenging, rick perry. this feels like it's a move of political force.

>> i have to disagree. i talked to the senator on monday, i talked to his people yesterday. i disagree he's in trouble in texas. i think he got what he needed from trump. in august when he opposed donald trump at the convention, no one thinks he's going to be within ten points of secretary clinton. if you look at the list that mr. trump released to add to the name, you'll see on there a very interesting name, margaret ryan, judge margaret ryan of the court of appeals. she is a clerk and thomas clerk and marine corps commandant. she is a terrific judge as were the other ones. i think ted cruz is playing to win the supreme court. i admire him for that. >> the supreme court wasn't enough for him six weeks ago and it is how? >> beware of ambition. teddy roosevelt did the same thing in 1884, james blaine from the state of maine was the candidate. many good republicans decided we can't go with him, they turned democrat. he promised to do it. at the last minute he said,vy to

go with my party. he's betrayed the never trump people. they were with him. they were with his principles. i wonder how he's going to feel about himself. >> i have to put up this, there's a meme going around. ted cruz's favorite movie is "princess bride." i won't do the access. my name is rafael eduardo cruz, you insulted my mother and father, prepared to be endorsed. >> if that were true, i understand the set of principles which he laid out except they were all so not long ago. it wasn't that donald trump is more likely to be president than he was when he was more likely to be nominee. ted cruz is playing with ted cruz. maybe there's a "dancing with the stars" slot. maybe it's time for ted cruz, texas politicians on "dancing." this wasn't even a dance. this was a capitulation, and i

guess we'll see pretty clearly why, but i don't know that it changes votes. >> you're a never trumper, you're in that world. did you feel betrayed? >> no, i've always thought cruz is a cynic, but i think politically, this is worse for him than it would be for a normal politician because cruz has always presented himself as the one guy who's uncompromised by the ways of washington. the one man against the machine. the creature of principle. and now he seems like just another politician and it's kryptonite for him. i agree the best argument is supreme court. but where i as a conservative fall apart on the supreme court with trump is it requires trusting trump. that's the bridge i can't cross. >> to do it before the debate, what if everything that cruz said about trump in may comes true tomorrow night? >> i have to disagree with everyone. the difference is trump was not viable in july. he is not only viable, he is ahead now. >> you're making the political argument. you're basically saying ted cruz -- >> i can now say the supreme court because a justice

appointed by secretary clinton will change the court in ways profound that will last for 40 years. ted cruz is a constitutional scholar. he's a clerk. he is a genuine originalist and he knows that that list and the original list are good lists. >> do you agree, hugh, this is not about whether the supreme court so much, as to whether ted cruz can survive? we're sitting here talking about him sunday morning. >> he will win a primary in texas easily. i will bet everything, defer to mike on that. i think he'll crush mike mccaul if he runs against him. >> i agree with you, being back in the air again, if you a politician and haven't been listened to for a while, how fun to be back in the air. >> okay. i don't know. >> watch that primary. i'm not sure. there's a potential for a great primary there. we'll see. >> all right. i'm going to pause the conversation here. we have a lot more to go both on debate and other big story of the week. later in the show, we're going to talk about the police shooting in north carolina. >> don't shoot him. he has no weapon. he has no weapon. plus, the shooting in tulsa, oklahoma and the question

everyone is asking, what can we do to stop this from happening? but when we come back, inside the war-room. what really goes on in those debate prep sessions. i'll talk to two insiders who have been in those sessions and have prepped presidential candidates for these big moments. and as we go to break, here's a memorable donald trump debate moment from earlier this primary season. >> let's see, i'm at 42 and you're at 3 -- >> doesn't matter. >> -- so so far i'm doing better. so far i'm doing better. you know, you started off over here, jeb. you're moving over further and further. pretty soon you're going to be on the end.

great time for a shiny floor wax, no? not if you just put the finishing touches

on your latest masterpiece. timing's important. comcast business knows that. that's why you can schedule an installation at a time that works for you. even late at night, or on the weekend, if that's what you need. because you have enough to worry about. i did not see that coming. don't deal with disruptions. get better internet installed on your schedule. comcast business. built for business. comcast business.

welcome back. everyone has been speculating about whether donald trump can be, quote, presidential tomorrow or whether hillary clinton can be more likable and avoid being too lawyerly. joining me now, two people who have been in those debate war-rooms before and have faced what donald rumsfeld might have called the known knowns, unknowns, and unknown unknowns. george schmidt, george w. bush's re-election in 2004, and adviser for john mccain in '08.

campaign manager for the re-election in 2012 and part of the debate preparation process for john kerry in 2004. welcome to you both. stephanie cutter, let me start with you and the idea of gamesmanship. >> uh-huh. >> which is the clinton campaign deciding to put mark cuban in the front row, obviously the donald trump campaign may or may not be following through with trump's pledge to bring gennifer flowers, there's some question here. my guess is others are trying to talk him out of it. you did this in '04. give an example of gamesmanship that you did. >> i seem to recall we had some 9/1 1 widows in the audience in 2004, just to make the point that we had a lot of work to do to get back on track in afghanistan, and iraq took us off course and iraq took us off course because of bush not telling the truth about weapons of mass destruction. what clinton and trump are doing, or trying to throw each other off their game.

the difference is hillary clinton is doing it with a legitimate businessman. also a celebrity. >> uh-huh. >> and as john podesta put it earlier on your show, trump is just jumping right down in the sewer and swimming it while inviting gennifer flowers. i think part of what you want to do in putting somebody in the audience is reinforce a positive about your campaign or make a legitimate point about your opponents. what he's doing is not going to help him. >> steve schmidt, it would have made more sense had trump responded with bringing a grieving mother -- one of the benghazi grieving family members. that seems to be, would have been the counter that would have made policy sense. >> well, you just saw the effectiveness of the tactic. it was clearly designed to provoke donald trump and it provoked donald trump and it provoked donald trump into going down the gennifer flowers rabbit hole as opposed to doing what you're suggesting, chuck, and tomorrow one of the big tests that donald trump has on this debate stage, can he comport himself like an american

president should comport himself? is he going to be able to be seen by the american people as a plausible commander in chief? somebody who could address the nation in a crisis? and i think she's going to try to push his buttons all through this debate and get a volcanic eruption like you saw throughout the primary. >> i want to talk about the importance of mock debates. steve schmidt, i'll start with you. you guys used rob portman in 2008 as -- for john mccain to stand in there for president obama. how important did you find the mock debate for john mccain and i think if i remember, there was some concern that president bush didn't do enough preparation before the first debate in '04. >> look, i think that if you look at incumbent presidents of the united states, saw this with president bush and poor debate performance in 2004. saw it with president obama with a poor debate performance in to 12. it's hard to tell the incumbent president of the united states time to practice and they pay

for it when they don't. rob portman was spectacular in these debate preps and it was a real live fire scenario for the candidates. he was exquisitely prepared. he was tough and he gave a very accurate, precise preview at what was coming at john mccain and there's no question that john mccain's performances were better because of the preparation he went through with rob portman. >> you know, and stephanie, i know you guys used john kerry as the stand-in for mitt romney. the important -- i guess we now know it's felipe rince, longtime spokesperson for hillary clinton, he's playing donald trump. it's interesting, i guess the idea was to find somebody that could be snarky enough and would feel comfortable going after hillary clinton in a small room. >> well, that's certainly philippe. what you want to do in the prep sessions is role play every potential scenario to have a good understanding of how your

candidate is going to react and whether they can keep their cool when they have the right judgment to go on attack or they're keeping in mind their larger vision that they need to communicate to the american people. and i think philippe testing secretary clinton's limits is very important because we don't know, you know, no one's ever debated somebody like donald trump on a presidential debate stage. we don't know exactly who's showing up. >> final question for both of you. part of the debate prep process isn't just prepping the candidate but it's also, you got to prep for the post spin game. and this -- it's -- every cycle, it gets faster and faster and the way the debate gets perceived is suddenly goes faster and faster. stephanie cutter, what did you learn right and wrong from 2012 about the necessity of being prepared for that? >> we were prepared but we were prepared as if we were in a 2008 campaign instead of 2012. what we hadn't realized is what a powerful tool twitter was going to be in defining the narrative of that. we could see the narrative being

set in the first 15 minutes of that debate. now, who knows what's going to happen this year in 2016 because every year, it's a different format, it's a different technology. but you have to understand how people communicate, how quickly narratives can get set. by the time you get out in the spin room, it's done. >> you know, steve schmidt, what's harder these days preparing for the debate or post debate fallout? >> when you go into the spin rooms they're a quaint thing of days past. the verdict of what happened in this debate will be rendered by the middle of the debate. certainly by the end by social media and the ability of the campaign teams to come out, to be able to tell the american people here's what really happened when 80 million-plus people just saw it. just those days are gone. what the campaigns need to do here is to communicate clearly, what's their objective, what are they trying to accomplish? managing the expectations on the front side of it is much more important.

>> steve schmidt, stephanie cutter. all right. we're beginning the longest pregame i guess you could have for a debate and doing it the day before. thank you, both. we'll be back in a moment with one group donald trump needs help with and it's not the voting groups you might think. >> i'm not asking you to admire it. i'm asking you to sign it. >> well, i'll be happy with you when you give me the signed letters -- >> right here. right here. sign it right now. >> we'll shake on this. >> i want your signature because i think everybody wants to see you signing something that you said you were for.

and we are back. it's data download time. we're asking the question, what will it take for donald trump to win the presidency? well, hillary clinton has substantial leads among african-americans and hispanics. this is all from our latest nbc/"wall street journal" poll. let's look at some of the key demographic breakdowns within the white vote. may not be enough. here's why. trump's bigger challenge is among college educated white voters. in fact, clinton is up eight points among white women who went to college. romney won this group four years ago. and here's what really striking in our new poll. clinton is up one point among college educated white men. this is a group that mitt romney won by a whopping 21 points 4 years ago.

all told, clinton leads him among college educated white voters by five points. a group mitt romney won by 14 points. so overall, trump is only leading clinton by 11 points among all white voters. this will pose a major challenge for donald trump. mitt romney won these white voters by a 20-point margin fur years ago. and remember, whites are still the biggest part of the electorate, so that nine-point difference is enormous. this is the problem for trump. he has to do much better than mitt romney somewhere to win. because romney lost in 2012. it's not going to happen with african-americans. we know it's not going to happen with latinos. and if it's not going to happen with young voters, it's got to happen one place. the one place it has to happen is the white vote. romney won the biggest share of the white vote since 1988 and still lost. clinton has her own struggles but it's hard to see a path to the presidency for trump if he doesn't dramatically improve somewhere particularly amidst college educated whites. coming up, debate moments we remember but i'm sure the candidates would like to forget.

>> let's see. the third one, i can't. sorry. oops.

hey how's it going, hotcakes? hotcakes. this place has hotcakes. so why aren't they selling like hotcakes? with comcast business internet and wifi pro, they could be. just add a customized message to your wifi pro splash page and you'll reach your customers where their eyes are already - on their devices. order up. it's more than just wifi, it can help grow your business. you don't see that every day. introducing wifi pro, wifi that helps grow your business. comcast business. built for business. comcast business. your home. your life. lendingtree. when banks compete, you win. welcome back. it was a week in america that saw two black men in two different cities shot and killed by police officers. charlotte, north carolina, protests continued well into the night. tulsa, oklahoma, subdued scene, no less grief stricken. meanwhile, the national debate has taken off. of course, it all started with colin kaepernick in august with a singular protest when it comes to racial justice -- injustice.

now athletes from different teams across the nfl have joined him. to the wnba where there have been protests for some time now. they've all joined kaepernick in protesting during the national anthem. and look at this on friday night at an smu football game. marching band members knelt while playing the national anthem. a high school football team in oakland laid on their backs with their hands up. by the way, colin kaepernick, himself, taking a knee beside that team. all against the backdrop of the grand opening of the new smithsonian museum dedicated to african-american history and culture in washington where president obama referenced the last few years >> men can probably win the gold for their country but still insist on raising a black glove fist. how we can wear an i can't breathe t-shirt and still grieve for fallen police officers. >> it's been tough.

it's probably going to be part of the debate. i want to read something that charles ramsey, former police commissioner, both of philadelphia and d.c., wrote today. "police officers carry a lot of baggage. they have not always been on the right side of justice as we define justice today. some cases they were enforcing unjust laws of a different era. when i went into the chicago police department in the late '60s it wasn't the most popular thing a young black kid could to. there are consequences to the difficult history that will take time to repair. this challenging moment is also a tremendous opportunity to make real improvements. i hope none of us squander it. i read this op-ped from charles ramsey and felt like he was almost throwing up in hands in frustration because it doesn't feel like a solution is in sight. >> it's not despair as much as this amazing dichotomy of this week. we had the president yesterday at the national museum of african-american history and culture, an amazing place. you go inside, you will see they have life size statues of the three athletes who raised their fist during the playing of the anthem. yesterday when the national anthem was playing at the beginning of the ceremony.

the beginning, the emotion of the people in the audience mostly blacks singing full throatedly reminded me of things that are true in this country which is we want to, aspire to, hope to make it a better union yet we see the clash, the hopefulness of that beautiful museum put up against what we've seen happen in the streets. the conflict of what happened in tulsa, which was mostly a peaceful response and how it was handled in charlotte where there was not a peaceful respond. having to do with transparency in both case. >> it is. doris, i just feel like you watch -- even hillary clinton and donald trump, they both had i don't want to say uneven reactions to it. it was almost like they don't know how to respond anymore because the solution, we all kind of know what it is but it's not happening yet or doesn't feel like it's happening. >> things are happening. it seems to me when donald trump said to the african-american communities, you're living in the worst times ever, ever, it's never been this bad, that's what the museum shows is not true.

the bottom of that museum shows blacks in slave pens. it shows them under jim crow. it shows them making uplift. we made enormous progress. even in the police situation, there are some best practices in some of the cities. tulsa, they did a better job in part because they had a riot in 1921. they learned from the mistakes. i think we can't have a sense of despair. yes, for many people still living in the inner city, it doesn't seem like much has changed but it certainly has compared to where we were 130, 140 years ago. >> yeah, this transparency issue, though, hugh, it's what eye can see the charlotte police chief has been grappling with this. they didn't release the whole video so it didn't erase the skepticism. >> it won't be gone for a long time. i think it's unfortunate that we're not spending more time on the first lady embracing the former president yesterday and we are spending more time on transparency as we have to. i think that for many in the country, that's all one event. charlotte, tulsa, and the presidential race and the national anthem were all one event. for a lot of the country the national anthem is a different

event. and i would recommend a column this week, hillary clinton's problem. a lot of people are feeling suffocated by the cultural left and don't associate it with race, they associate it with being overwhelmed by change. i think it's the most important column that's been written. >> i saw the picture of the first lady. >> i want to put it up. >> let me just say, i watched it. she and george w. bush get along very well. you've seen this at other events where they're basically holding hands and -- >> you know what was, the fact that president bush signed this legislation that senator brownback from kansas, a republican, worked on, a democrat, to create the museum. that's the kind of thing we should be celebrating. this is a great moment, this -- >> this is political leaders doing what they're supposed to do. >> yeah. >> one of the reasons -- >> we're so unused to that. >> i'm in the awkward position of being a republican who can't support the nominee of my party, he's been in the code language party for a long time, sometimes even explicitly bringing those tensions forward under the guise of it's politically correct.

well, politically incorrect. politically correct is a politically correct way to say things in our dialogue that maybe don't belong there. and so i think this is, you know, that was two people who like each other.

that's who he is speaking to. when people say he's speaking to black voters, it's not. >> we'll pause. the unfortunate debate moments that just make you do this. we'll be right back. >> announcer: coming up "meet the press" end game brought to you by boeing. building the future one century at a time. xwxexe

"meet the press" end game is brought to you by boeing, building the future one cent

back with our end game segment. we don't live in a bubble on tv. we're not the only show on >> trump breaks out of the cage. three hours from now what will he tweet? we'll see what happens. there is not a international trump campaign. there are people floating around donald trump. i think he'll start out sedated, maybe for real but the real trump just like the tweet with flowers i think will break out. >> do you think hillary clinton has made the race too much about donald trump? i say, what if donald trump is not the caricature? >> i think the most important thing for her tomorrow is not necessarily deal with trump tomorrow unless she has to as a counter-attack. >> you would avoid it? >> it's interesting to go back to the likability thing. likability should not be what we're voting on yet it matters.

that's why the phrase for eisenhower is i like ike because ike is easy to like. if she can own the e-mail scandal and talk about how she wishes she could turn the clock black. not just on the e-mail but if she makes mistakes. all presidents will. then i'll own it. i'll be more transparent and forth right. show that it's affected emotionally. her body language should not get him get under her skin. she should be above that. >> we have you on because you've made both a james blaine reference and had the campaign song and ike. this is why we have the notorious dkg. >> the accent. >> hugh hewitt, is this going to be -- where issues with secondary in. >> i think so. >> because they disagree on a lot. >> i don't think issues matter. there are two archetypes on the stage. the smartest, toughest teacher

in the high school. maybe she spends too much time writing recommendations for the kids. and there is the football coach to wins, wins, wins. professor kerns worked for johnson at the age of 24. i worked for nixon and the the age of 24. i think secretary clinton has a nixon problem. she is unlikable over a generation. >> nixon won twice. by the way. i hear you. the. >> the real story of the debate from hillary's point of view is less important but can she fix hillary. all the polling shows she is underperforming the votes she ought to have and may in october get. she'll have the audience in the moment to do it. trump, while an important side show it's a side show. >> i have not wanted to mention the m word on this broadcast which is moderator. gwen, you've done it.

it's amazing how hard the candidates are working the refs. some of it has been destructive. >> it has been. they worked me when i moderated. you remember this. here is the thing. understand the difference between general election debates. if you are a pro, lester is a pro. it will be okay. here is the key. hillary clinton is the only person who did one on one debates. she did it with bernie sanders and when running for senate. donald trump, whenever he did his calling people names, there were ten other people on the stage, 15 other people on the stage. it's a different thing. there won't be cheering. the commission doesn't approve of cheering in a general election debate like in primary debates. we may have our popcorn and be watching closely but i don't think it will be quite the debate people have come to expect. >> speaking of popcorn and a little bit of candy. here is candy for everyone.

one reason the debates are very big is because they can go so very wrong. >> who am i? why am i here? >> commerce, education, and the -- what's the third one there? let's see. >> the vice president doesn't believe in expiration, for example, in alaska. >> there is no soviet domination of eastern europe, and there never will be under a ford administration. >> commerce, education and the -- um, um -- >> let's dispel once and for all with the fiction that barack obama doesn't know what he's doing. he shows exactly what he's doing. let's dispel with the fiction that barack obama doesn't know what he's doing. he knows exactly what he's doing. he knows exactly what he's doing. >> let's dispel with the fiction. >> there it is. the memorized speeches. >> i have had a record of appointing judges in the state of texas. that's what a governor gets to do. >> commerce and, let's see. i can't. the third one i can't. sorry.

>> there's differences. >> oops. >> very funny. >> look at this. you guys have lost it. you're like -- i got doris with like -- i was going to go to you. but you can't talk. >> i am finished. >> you're out. >> that's how you end up on "dancing with the stars." >> the sigh thing is a reminder. none of us picked up on the sighs in the room. a lot of people thought gore trounced bush in the debate and people were offended by gore. >> when you are the moderator, you're in the head and you know it. >> before we go, quick programming note. in case you missed the point. there is a debate tomorrow night. nbc news will provide full coverage beginning at 9:00 eastern. other networks claim they're airing it. we're airing it, i promise you. >> we're airing it on pbs. >> that's all for today. we'll be back next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. an inmate causes chaos in the housing unit after accusing staff of abusing him. and he explodes in anger when a valued possession is taken from his cell. >> from what i was told they found the head and like a field away from the body. >> accused of a vicious vigilante-style murder, another inmate says jail saved his life.