opinion. she can explain that, think she did a decent job, but aside from that, yeah. >> i i was there when her husband, he came out for the trade deal in japan, right there. >> yeah, i think it was a are standard. it was a 4-1. he set it up nicely with the trade conversation and the economy argument. he kind of moved off of that and fell in the rabbit hole and figured he wanted to play there. >> any points he made in arguing about trade which was by far his strongest moments, he lost. he gave back. this is going on points. or home runs. she won many of the points. if this was a change election. change requires you to be an acceptable alternative. he had the lowest bar in the

history of debate participants. he had to look like a president for 90 minutes and they saw a man sitting there and interrupting and trying to argue hillary clinton into the ground. >> some of the focus group in that activity after that was really, really not in trump's favor. a lot of the groups are middle america. it was decidedly a hillary clinton win tonight. >> becoming less coherent overtime. there were large stretches of answers that you couldn't find the answer. >> and arguing about hillary clinton not being nice. why do you need her to be nice to you. it became whiney. i don't think that will help him. >> at the end he said i have a temperament advantage. why would he push that again and again except for his peeps. they will say yeah, you won. thank you for this.

go write somewhere. it's now after 1:00 here. you witnessed the first showdown between hillary clinton and donald trump. i think it will move voters. >> finally we tonight are on the stage together donald trump and i. donald, it's good to be with you. we are going to have a debate. >> in all fairness to secretary clinton, yes, is that okay. good. i want you to be very happy. it's important to me. >> donald thinks climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the chinese. >> i did not say that. i do not say that. you called it the gold standard of trade deals and said it's the finest deal you have ever seen. >> i know you live this your own reality, but that is not the

facts. >> with me at the table is the former chair of the rnc and sticking with us. chris hayes, msnbc host. the "huffington post" director, you arrived in time to comment on the one part of the debate that everyone agrees was strong for trump. the trade issue. >> that was his best moment. can i say before that, i got finished writing my piece for the "huffington post" in which i said having covered debates in person, traveling to the mall since 1988, this was the worst debate performance i have ever seen. as a debate. we can argue about whether debates matter anymore. >> i think they do. >> i agree with you. >> how many people were not wasting their time. >> they do matter, but as a debate performance, it was you awful. in every respect it was awful. hillary wiped the floor with him

in this debate. except for the one issue that you mentioned which is trade. he caught her on trade. that was the one punch he caught her with. she is a globalist. donald trump senses that and that is his advantage in places like ohio. that more than anything else is the reason why he is competitive this this race. that was the number one issue. he got her on the middle east a little bit and at the end where he said you have a lot of experience, but it's bad experience. except for those three moments, the rest was a symphony of incoherence by trump. hillary taking him to the cleaners. there were stretches where he stood there and took it. >> on taxes. >> he had nothing to say. on the birther thing, he had

nothing to say. he said call sean hannity. they are saying he had a bad night as well at fox. this is not liberal bologna. this is true. >> why would he march into a war knowing he was defenseless on birtherism which everyone has known about and failure to release his tax returns. >> number one on birtherism, he still believes it, i believe. that's not dog whistle, that's fog horn politics. on the taxes, he is not going to do it and doesn't care how he is assaulted on that. he is never going to give up. >> what are about the line of that's smart. i don't pay taxes. >> that are plays really well in certain breakfast hotel rooms in mid-town manhattan, but not with the average american. >> i don't think so either.

i don't pay taxes. >> let's not forget the average american lifted this boat for him on this idea that as to quote them, he is one of us. he is like us. there are certain aspects about donald trump's persona that those folks were attracted to. >> it's the short form. >> these folks are not in that position. >> paying taxes at the rate you are supposed to pay it. >> for those who do wbs a contractor pay them. that was one of the worst moments. >> that was a tough moment. >> they didn't like their work. >> my dad made draperies and this guy would have stiffed my dad. >> i got all of that, but i'm saying let's not lose sight of how we got here to begin with. the middle class worker who is believed this guy. >> ever talk about immigration?

>> that s one of the things that was fascinating. lester holt did a fantastic job of getting out of the way. there were periods of time where people were talking. you can see them each being am i going to keep going here? >> hillary also shrewdly kept her mouth shut. there were long stretches where he turned himself. >> moderators now have to not only if they do feel there is an error in front of them, you weren't against the war and they have to put out statements and back them up? this is getting difficult. >> what was ironic about that point was on twitter, it was amazing. people were like why doesn't lester jump in and interrupt. he was doing what a moderator should do.

let them talk. let them do it. >> on the issue of african-americans stop and frisk. his answer to what you would do about that. >> it was not a law and order answer. >> here went to law and order as soon as race was brought up. that tells you how we got here. he is appealing to the electorate for who that is the right answer. >> i understand it's stop and frisk. there are certain situations where you do it. a man who died recently said it's hard to stop a murder rate the only time is if there is a gang shooting. there is going to be a reaction. the other gang will be in the streets. you then go in the streets and look for gangs and move it around and stop those kids. >> that's not how it works. >> he said the correct way is.

>> my godfather was retired in the police department and the way stop and frisk work side to go to a town like brownsville and stop nine out of ten black men and ask you to show your id. >> or someone sitting on the stoop in bti city. and the arrest them for loitering. >> that's how it works. people are trying to find it. >> 1 sla1/6 of the population w arrested for stop and frisk. >> his colossal misunderstanding or cynicism about the justice system is disturbing. he said no, no, there was no ruling against stop and frisk. it was a very anti-police judge who said this. >> was he mexican? >> he wasn't mexican, but he was

anti-police. deblasio's fault for not appealing the decision of the federal court. that's really what happened. it's a small point perhaps, but evidence of the fact that his lack of respect for traditional institutions of government and politics is extreme which is what makes him appealing. this thing looked like he was a guy who didn't care he was not in the ap class. he is not going to study for the exam. he thinks he is right and thinks he is the voice of the people. >> he was taking on lester holt. here's the exchange where secretary got the better of him over policing policies. she seemed to have done her homework on the issue of stop and frisk. >> two minutes are expired, but i want to follow-up stop and

frisk was ruled unconstitutional in new york because it largely singled out black and hispanic young men. >> you're wrong. it went before a judge who was a very against police judge. it was taken away from her and our new mayor refused to go forward with the case. if you look at it throughout the country, there are many places. >> the argument is it's a form of racial profiling. >> the argument is we have to take away the guns from those who are bad people. >> it's unfortunate that he painted such a dire negative picture of black communities in our country. the vibrancy of the black church and the black businesses that employ so many people. the opportunities that so many families are working to provide for their kids. there is a lot that we should be proud of and we should be supporting and lifting up.

>> that's where a smart answer is good politics. she knows what she is doing and trying to encourage voter participation. >> she has convergence with the african-american community. >> that to me more than anything. >> i'm curious what you think. that was t moment where the fact that we are entering the first era in american life after the first black president felt so palpable. watching these two white people with a black moderator try to talk about the issues in ways that felt fluid. there was a long stretch of the conversation that felt awkward. putting their foot down. >> at the same time i had a lot of people saying it was the first time the candidate talked about systemic racism and she did it fluently enough that she impressed a lot of people. she uses it a lot. >> she is a careful politician.

a cautious politician. the fact that she was willing to utter that phrase proves the point you are making. the world has changed and donald trump refuses to accept it. he was asked the most middle of the road guy, lester holt, what do you have to say to the people who are insulted and he said i say nothing. those are the two worlds that we are talking about. >> don't go anywhere. we have live coverage of the first presidential debates will continue and we will talk more about the debate. hillary clinton and donald trump. we will be back in a minute. >> in all fairness to secretary clinton, when she started talking about this, it was very recently. she has been doing this for 30 years and why hasn't she made the agreements better? the nafta agreement is defective. secretary clinton and others,

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i think donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate and yes i did. you know what else i prepared for? i prepared to be president and i think that's a good thing. >> that was a great line. welcome back to msnbc's live coverage. it's over. the big question before tonight's debate was whether a more restrained or presidential donald 2ru678 woutrump would sh. he was in typical form, reacting and combative. he repeatedly interrupted and hillary clinton in the middle of

her answers remained steady and control. this is quite objective. >> donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the chinese. i think it's real. >> did do not say that. >> i think it's important that -- i think about what work and how to make it work again. how to make jobs and a balanced budget. i did say i hoped it would be a good deal, but when it was negotiated which i was not responsible for, i concluded it wasn't. >> is it president obama's fault? is it president obama's fault? >> mine would create 10 million jobs and yours would lose us 3.5 million jobs. >> you are going to approve one of the biggest tax cuts in history. one of the biggest tax increases in history. >> i assumed there would be a lot of charges and claims. >> facts. >> donald supported the invasion of iraq.

>> wrong. >> that are is proved. >> wrong. >> i have a feeling that i will be blamed for everything that ever happened. >> why not? >> why not. yeah. join the debate by saying more crazy things. now, let me say this. >> nothing crazy about not letting our companies bring their money back into their country. >> this is secretary clinton's two machines. >> let's start the clock again, lester. >> here's a point of fact. he said he had never said that the concept of climate change was a chinese hoax. here is a trump tweet from 2012. the concept of global warming was created by and for the chinese to make u.s. manufacturing noncompetitive. why would he deny that? >> for somebody in the media as long as he has been, he doesn't

seem to remember that things are recorded and the things can be found again and he doesn't remember. he will literally say that. >> he knows they are forgotten. >> no, they are not. people retweet them as soon as he lies about it. >> in realtime they are forgotten. >> the moment he says it. he is not operating by the same rules that everybody else, i think, is. he relies on the instant forgetfulness of everybody in politics. >> here under estimates because of the birther thing. he said i was the that saved the president's bacon on this. i was the that got him to show his birth certificate and it saved him. watch this. trump defended his behavior when it came to the birther issue

even though it has been a sensitive issue for african-americans and everyone. >> you continued to tell the story and question the president's legitimate in 12, 13, 14, 15, and as recently as january. what changed? >> nobody was pressing it and caring much about it, i figured you would ask the question tonight. nobody was caring much about it. i was the that got him to produce the birth certificate. i think i did a good job. secretary clinton also fought it. everybody in mainstream will say that's not true. it's true. >> we are talking about racial healing. what do you say to americans -- >> i say nothing because i was able to get him to produce it. he should have produced it a long time before. i say nothing. >> the arrogance of donald trump saying he is the person who brought the president of the united states to his knees. that is the implication of what

he keeps on saying. he, donald trump. in a way that is so condescending. it is absurd for him to recruit hillary clinton into birtherism when it's easily fact checked. >> it's clearly not true. he is not the good guy here. he is the bad guy. >> he thinks he is the good guy. >> he thinks it? >> every time i hear him talk about this one issue, why does he think this is a moment of pride? to give up his birth certificate. you have the first black man in the country elect and he has to produce his papers? are you kidding me? this is nothing to be proud of. >> president obama did not produce a birth certificate because of donald trump.

the mainstream media had reported on the story. it was a distraction and a story he was having to deal with. >> i said then and i still say he should never have put it out there. >> i thought at the time and said so, g it over with. show them the damn papers. >> my thinking at the time and still is, i will be damned if i show you my papers. i'm the president of the united states. i'm not showing anything. that empowered that attitude that makes you think that you won that argument. >> but it's also a meg low mania that puts him at the center of it. >> with that nonsense. >> he still believes it. >> he gave the real answer. >> you think he believe this is stuff. he doesn't care about immigration and trade

agreements. i don't know where he stands on war. >> the reporting on donald trump is he is a experience theorist. he said hey, i maybe will be able to help to solve this birtherism thing. i would like to send investigators to hawaii. we will figure this out. he is a experience theorist. >> this is more experience. does he believe that? >> he probably does. we may have to get a psychiatrist. >> you could hear him snorting every few minutes. >> you saw tonight also and how much of his information comes from conservative media. when he starts an answer by saying sydney blumenthal. nobody know who is that is. people need to be caught up to that, but when you saw that, you

saw what he consumes. >> here we go. trump asserted that nobody knows whether russia is behind recent hackings this this country. nobody knows that. despite the u.s. intelligence officials. >> i don't think anybody knows it was russia that broke into the dnc. she is saying russia, russia. maybe it was. it could be, but it could be china and lots of other people. it could be something on their bed that weighs 400 pounds. you don't know who broke into dnc, but we learned that bernie sanders was sataken advantage o by your people. by debbie wassermann schultz. look what happened to her. bernie sanders was taken advantage of. whether that was russia or china or another country, we don't know. under president obama we lost control of things that we used

to have control over. >> can i say that was completely incoherent. completely incoherent. >> who are is this 400 pound person? >> who is the 400 pound person sitting on the bed? they russian? >> to see the split screen of him going on like that and hillary maintaining. i know she was told, look, there is going to be a split screen. keep your face in check. she must have been thinking it's like a parody of the old "saturday night live" thing with the guy playing dukakis. i can't believe i'm losing to him. >> can you imagine the call to open this saturday night.

>> not that. i hope they get the 400 pound guy. of the two, donald trump is the experienced media personality. the fact that he didn't know the snorting and the sniffling and the faces were on ra. >> you don't think he did it on purpose? >> maybe it's a nervous tick. >> stop. >> snoreding and you said snoreding. >> that's what it was. snoreding. >> snorkeling. >> coverage continues live from hofstra after this. >> like sniffling. >> i hope the fact checkers are turning up the volume and really

working hard. donald supported the invasion of iraq. >> wrong. wrong. >> that are is proved over and over again. >> wrong. >> he advocated for the actions we took in libya and i urge that gadhafi be taken out after doing business with him one time. esurance does auto insurance a smarter way. like their photo claims tool. it helps settle your claim quickly, which saves time, which saves money. and when they save, you save. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance, an allstate company. click or call.

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different than mrs. clinton's? >> i have better judgment and a better temperament. she spent, let me tell you -- >> i love it. karma. >> back from hofstra university and live coverage of the debate. that was hillary clinton and they are reacting to donald trump saying she doesn't have the judgment to be president. another weird thing tonight when it was clear who was winning and who was losing on the issue of temperament, donald trump said i have the temperament. why did he choose that claim some. >> he has been saying this. this has been a thing and there is a sword of weird projection thing he does often and keeps talking about over the last month. i have the best temperament and she is erratic and can't be trusted. >> no stamia. >> this weird jujitsu thing

where any time he is attacked, he attacks for the same thing. they clearly made a decision, particularly the dnc. he is unfit to be president. that was the tweet length version. i think he took it personally and if you just throw it back at the person who is saying it, it comes out in the wash. >> the exchange that came later in the debate about isis, something we have been arguing about for months now. the country is how we deal with isis. >> shes you how to fight isis on the website. i don't think general douglas mac arthur would like it. >> at least i have a plan to fight isis. >> you are telling the enemy everything you want to do. no wonder you have been fighting isis your entire adult life.

>> a young 68. 69. >> for 69 years she has been fighting isis. okay. >> can i put one more note of caution. she wiped the floor with him. most of what we have been talking about is how poorly donald trump did and how he missed his chance. the fact is that i'm not sure the country wants to vote for hillary clinton. she still has to make that case. >> i agree. >> she still has to make that case. he set himself back tonight, but people do want change. i think they do want change. you say, chris, never tell the american people that they don't have a choice. >> i know. >> somebody like trump could survive a catastrophe like this

is that he is the only implement around that you can reach for to reject hillary clinton. >> i have been reading roger ailes and he makes a lobbyist point. in the end and from the beginning, you decide who you like for maybe ideological reasons and your parents taught your politics to you. maybe that. to say who you like and who you root for. a big part of it, who do you dislike? the only conservative people i like. just a minute. my question is, i would argue that i think hillary was likeable tonight. i thought the power of a strong professional woman making her case was charming. it made me happy that someone can succeed so well. i liked what i saw tonight.

>> i did find her likeable and we saw that before we went on air. the benghazi best version of public facing hillary clinton. >> you said that on the air. >> she looked composed and centered. >> she was having fun. >> exactly and that's it. >> at the art of politics, she was having fun. >> she was having a more difficult threshold to cross. she had to come across as resolute and somebody who can be a command in the military, but has to come across soft. it's unfair, but it's real. tonight some of the times that the fays she was making and the smiling and the times when she would say okay, that's what the audience felt. >> blame me for everything. >> she connected with a lot of them. she had to do that tonight.

she had to look like she was enjoying what she was doing. i believe that you had 40-40. rooting for trump and rooting for hillary. it may be more than that. the people who had to get past and make a decision, i think they saw one person who seemed like a pleasant presidential person and one person who was erratic and that matters. >> one reason she was enjoying herself is she was watching her opponent destroy himself. that was amusing. >> she didn't hide it. >> she didn't hide the amusement. that was charming. she had the tone just right. she was treating him like a 7-year-old. she had the sort of elementary school teacher patience for a kid for whom the elevator did not go to the top floor. >> i'm not a bullfight fan, but

i have been to some and what i think it's about is this. the matador and everything that goes on, the bull comes in the ring. he is bleeding and mad and losing his stamina, but he is really mad. the madder he gets, the easier he is to control. bulls snort. >> what are does the matador do? they are charming. >> he works the bull until they put the sword in. hillary clinton had complete control of the ball. >> she did. she put the sword in with the quotes about trump calling women pigs. >> that was the coup degraw.

>> so much of it was dominance. i control the situation. i am the who is driving this. hillary drove this debate. she was behind the wheel and dominated the debate. just in this basic way of around whose center of gravity did the debate move? it moved around her. >> this was everybody's point that comes from me to this crews bell moment. there was i lot of talk about the presidential look and demeanor. i think the greatest missed opportunity for trump was to show his ability to be equally presidential with her. everything else not with standing, no matter how much policy you know or don't know. that moment to show. >> going past donald trump, 45 minutes in, it was clear he was on the defensive.

how could he reghan and say i will control myself and say something and somehow regain control of this discussion. >> without preparation. >> here didn't down the rabbit hole. you need to be prepared and the one thing about this process that was evidence was the difference between and the decision not to. >> you need temperament. anything that sounds like a personal slide against you, you can't be prepared no the to do that. >> the first time he said here he is with the hair and the beautiful wife and the beautiful buildings and the trump thing, the brand is based on he is a self-made guy. he said you are not that guy. you inherited your money.

>> it's a small point. he didn't counter. >> here said i got a small loan. >> the only thing he could have done to me except for the fact that he refused to study anything and learn, he said the heck with that. this is school. i'm not going to do it. the only thing he could have done at length and better was what he said when he said you have experience. you have bad experience. that's one of the best lines. >> it got lost in everything else. >> that's one thing he can spend a lot of time saying. >> can we take a second to acknowledge the fact that he knew 100 million people would watch the debate. he is applying for the most powerful job in the world. >> to those people. for the 80 million. >> that's the most important job in the world.

i'm sorry, but it's an incredibly damning statement where he doesn't bring himself to prepare or study for that thinking about being the president that requires it. >> one thing though, the trump campaign has been crowd sourcing through the text messaging and what do you want me to fight on? they have been asking this for a couple of weeks. the moments when he would attack. if this was the result, it was minimal, but if that was a part of it, he chose the places he wanted to attack her and they were all the wrong places. >> he didn't read any of that. >> stick with us. our coverage of the presidential debate is after this. >> my obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family

and my companies. that's what i do. what she doesn't say is the tens of thousands of people that are unbelievably happy and love me. i will give you an example. we are just opening up on pennsylvania avenue right next to the white house. so if i don't get there one way, i will get to pennsylvania avenue another. is that ice-t? nope, it's lemonade. is that ice-t? lemonade. ice-t? what's with these people, man?

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let me ask you this. you have been doing this for 30 years. why are you just thinking about this right now. for 30 years you have been doing it. excuse me, i will bring back jobs. you can't. >> actually, i have thought about this quite a bit. >> for 30 years. >> i have -- not quite that long. barry: back to hofstra

university between hillary clinton and donald 2ru6trump. >> besides the triple r, let me ask you without any prep or set up or any context, you are donald trump tonight and you get up tomorrow morning and you talk to your children who are smart. you begin to think i have to do this again twice more. two more debates. >> you think about a couple of things. first of all about the substance part of it. you guys have been talking for the past couple of hours about where there were shortages in the substance. he didn't rehearse or not much. that's what they told us. maybe you think you have to sit down some and talk through issues. there were a number of substantive ones that came up and they are unlikely to be in the second or third debates. you can concentrate some on

that. i would want to see the vio of tonight's debate for the performance part of what a debater has to do. if he looks at the performance part of it, he will see various things, i think. one is that interrupting your opponent and trying to talk over them doesn't work. he is likely to hear that ramification. the facial expressions on the split screen, the ever deadly split screen. they are a second thing that he will probably want to look at. and basically correct a bit. >> would you think of going to the second or 30 debate? >> one of the interesting things about this success cycle sell there is no memorandum of understanding between the campaigns. that usually spells out the three debates. he is not under the written obligation that has been there in past cycles.

there is an expectation that he still has to do. the reviews tomorrow are not going to say he won this debate. he will learn the lesson of iowa. that was the debate he skipped in the primaries in a moment of weakness actually. it was part of the whole megyn kelly trauma. i think he has given that lesson and unlikely to skip them. you never know. >> let me go now. a couple of topics tonight, i'm not sure there is a brilliant way around. the birther thing. lester asked him why did you persist. 2012, 2013, 2014 and not why did you bring it up initially, but why did you persist. is there a way around that? forget who did it in the first place and someone with the papers reporting. it doesn't matter. why did you persist.

>> i think what you have to do is say we are done talking about this issue. i brought it up, it's settled, we are not going to talk about it anymore. >> to hillary or the next moderator? >> to the next moderator. it may not come up again. you say it to the next moderator and it's your pivot and you talk about something else like foreign policy. >> what about the other one of the tax returns. is he going to be driven to put it out at this point? >> i think at this point it's baked in the cake that they made the calculation that he is not going to release them and we will take whatever grief there is for it. i can tell you from the heart warming experience of releasing mitt romney's returns, there is an incredible-week feeding frenzy on the details. 21 out of 42 days left. >> nobody thanks you and says

what a great guy you are. this was a night you go in undecided and you stay undecided. >> not suburban women towards hillary? >> i think although this is a little bit different from what you have been saying, she looked rehearsed. there is an audience who she did not appeal to. >> he didn't look rehearsed. still more to come. this is msnbc's coverage of the first presidential debate. we will be back after this. what powers the digital world? communication. what powr like centurylink's broadband network that gives 35,000 fans a cutting edge game experience. or the network that keeps a leading hotel chain's guests connected at work, and at play.

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live coverage of the first presidential debate which is over. this is one big thought. does it matter? chris hays? in the next week or so, they always have a lag. will tonight's event cause a shift in the matchup? >> i think there will be some movement in her direction. i don't think it will be enormous, but it will be a point or two in the polling average. >> a point or two? >> at the most. this is hard wired in. i do wonder how much the next

two matter. it's hard to raise the next two. that was not the case in 2012. >> yes or no? i'm getting squeezed. >> i think it's worth one or two points and his reaction will add fuel to it. >> suburban women liked what they saw. they will be proud of hillary. she was charming tonight in a professional way. i don't think she looked mechanical. she did the job on this guy. i call it a shutout. he looked bad and she looked good. chris hayes. joy reed. that is it for us and our live coverage from hofstra university. i will be back tomorrow for "hardball." the college tour. the libertarian ticket live from the university of new hampshire. two more nights we will be out

with a lot of excitement on the libertarian option.

the moderator at these events has broad discretion on these topics. nicole wallace, you have lived this, followups and the like. >> do you know what's interesting to me, i talked to the clinton folks a few times today and a few different individuals remarked about all they learned about the commander in chief forum and they feel like all ofir