thanks for watching. we'll be back here tomorrow night, same bad time, same bad channel. until then, sayonara. >> "hardball" with chris matthews is next. the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. well, last night, 84 million americans watched the greatest long island drama since "the great gatsby" and there was a winner and there was a loser. i called it last night, clinton hit trump for his refusal to release his tax returns, for stiffing his business associates, for his birther claims and his attack on her, hillary clinton's looks and stamina. while playing to his fans, trump today declared is victory.

well, now they're saying that i not only won the nbc presidential forum, he tweeted, but last night the big debate. nice. that was trump. "nice." if last night was nice, what's horrible? on fox news this morning, trump gave an excuse for what he knew was a bad night. >> i thought it went really well. i mean, i had some hostile questions, but that was okay. you watched the last four questions, he hit me on -- >> boom, boom, boom. >> birther. he hit me on a housing deal from many years ago that i settled with -- >> 1973. >> -- with no recourse and no guilt. i was asked about my tax returns, which i've told about 500 times. so it's -- you know, i think i did -- i think i really did well when we were asked normal questions. i think i did really well in answering those questions, but those questions are not answerable in a positive light. i had a problem with the microphone that didn't work. i don't know if you saw that in the room, but my microphone was terrible. i think -- i wonder if it was set up that way on purpose.

my microphone, in the room, they couldn't hear me. you know, it was going on and off. i don't want to believe in conspiracy theories, of course, but it was much lower than hers and it was crackling. and she didn't have that problem. that was, to me, a bad problem. because if you have a bum mike, it's not exactly good. >> hillary clinton piled on, of course. let's watch her. >> anybody who complains about the microphone is not having that good night. >> later in the day, in a rally in raleigh, clinton celebrated her performance. >> did anybody see that debate last night? oh, yes! one down, two to go. and he made it very clear that he didn't prepare for that debate. you know, at one point, he was kind of digging me for spending time off the campaign trail to get prepared. but just trying to keep track of everything he says took a lot of

time and effort. and i said, yeah, you know what, i did prepare. and i'll tell you something else i prepared for. i prepared to be president of the united states. >> well, donald trump's holding his first rally since last night's debate. he's in melbourne, florida, right now and we'll hear what he has to say about last night's fiasco. it should be fascinating, because he's got to cover a lot to have ground tonight. we begin with the simple question, which candidate is sounding like he or she won? james carville is a longtime clinton political adviser and msnbc political analyst. dana lash is a radio host and the author of "flyover nation." and andrew sullivan, my pal, is a contributing editor at "new york" magazine. anywhere, thank you all. james, last night, i was blown away by it. i thought it was not a hard one to call. i thought it was a shutout. and i don't get it, quite. just, can you -- i know you have your alliances and your hopes for what was going to happen, but what do you think happened to trump last night? he didn't come in there prepared

to fight even. i don't know what he was up to. >> well, he was not prepared. and he was not prepared in the basic sense, like the cutaways. like i said last night, you know that the camera's going to be on you the whole time. it looks like no one told him that. and his campaign said he didn't prepare, and i think that's what happened. one candidate sat there and prepared and did her homework and was told to, you know, watch your reaction shots and everything else. and the other candidate decided he was going to wing it and just got tired and was just in over his head. look, there are two more debates to go. you know, i'm sure that he can rectify it. he can do better. he'll surely listen to the people that tell him, you need to be more prepared. and i think his reaction today has not been helpful at all. it's kind of whiney -- >> the microphone deal. >> whining about the microphone and everything. he just should have said, look, i'm going to do better next time. president obama lost the first debate to romney in 2012 and just came back. but i think it's a simple question of one candidate being ready and prepared and another

candidate just not having any preparation. and it just showed the whole night. >> well, tonight -- actually, today some time already, donald trump suggested there was at least one thing that could change at the next debate. let's watch him. >> so going into the next debate, what are you going to do differently? anything that you would like to do differently? >> well, i may hit her harder in certain ways. you know, i really eased up, because i didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but i may hit her harder in some ways. >> dana, i think that does make a certain amount of sense, in other words, if you lose a fight within the box, you say, i'm going to go in the next time without those rules. we'll have extreme fighting next time. do you think that's what he should do the next time, go extreme? personal? >> i think, yeah, that's maybe what he should do every time. that's kind of what he's known for, right? that's how he got through this particular primary. i thought he started the debate off strong, the very first half. he kept to policy. he was way more specific with

different proposals. i think almost than he's ever been. and then somewhere along the middle, i think he let her get to him. she got under his skin and it showed. >> it looked to me like she pivoted to the personal. i don't mean nasty personal, but he presents himself and he may well be a self-made billionaire, but when he got that grub steak, and she claim $14 million from the old man, that really bugged him and he couldn't seem to stop reacting to those personal shots about stiffing his suppliers. every time she hit him that seemed to undercut her image, he couldn't resist giving it three or four moiinutes. >> i agree with you on that. and i'm not a hillary supporter by any stretch of the word. but the next debate, and the debate after. first off, he can have a bad debate. remember back in october of 2012, mitt romney won that debate against barack obama by a landslide, but we're not saying president romney right now.

so he could still have a good two debates, but he has to not play into the emotions of it. >> if he goes after her personal life, what went on with her with bill. the whole thing about bill. >> i don't think he needs to touch her personal life. >> you said you agree he needs to be more extreme. what do you mean? >> i think he needs to go after her policies. he didn't even mention benghazi last night or the clinton foundation last night. if he wants to get into the personal, i think that's fine. i think character is on the line. but he doesn't even need to go all the way back to the '90s. >> just one time here, what did hillary clinton do wrong or fail to do in the benghazi episode? what was it that you folks think was the evil here? >> the -- "us folks," meaning? >> the critics of hillary clinton on benghazi. what exactly did she do wrong or -- >> she wasn't forthright with it. first off, she had chris stevens, who had been reaching out repeatedly, asking for security increases. we know this for a fact. >> that's the issue? >> that's one of the issues, yes. >> what's the heart of it? i have a hard time figuring out

the heart of benghazi. i assume it is dereliction of duty. they accuse her, the night he was threatened, that he was killed, that she didn't go to his aid. what is the heart of this charge? >> i think you nailed it just there. i think it's a dereliction of duty -- >> do you have evidence that she failed to do her duty that night. she failed to try to save him. >> and she failed to prepare for it. >> do you have evidence? you know? do you have evidence? i'm looking for it. where is it? >> chris, there was information that came forward -- >> tell me it, now. >> i am, now. you keep going, tell me it in and out. >> go for it. >> chris stevens had the repeatedly requested increases in security -- >> i said that night. >> even before then. >> i said that night. do you have evidence of dereliction of duty -- >> he wanted money just to get barricades and that wasn't cleared. so, i mean, that should have been brought up. yes, i would have liked to see that. >> but you don't have a point about her failure that night? >> i think that lack of preparation is all about that night. i think you'd agree with me.

>> last night, donald trump seemingly made a vague reference to clinton's past marital problems. let's watch that. >> i was going to say something extremely -- >> wait, wait -- >> -- rough to hillary, to her family, and i said to myself, i can't do it. i just can't do it. it's inappropriate, it's not nice. >> well, today, trump explained why he restrained himself. >> when she hit me at the end with the women, i was going to hit her with her husband's women, and i decided i shouldn't do it, because -- >> oh, that's what you were talking about? >> is that what you said, i had something i could bring up, but i didn't bring it up. >> having to do with her husband. >> many people thought that -- >> -- all of the women. >> they sort of thought that was it. and imprint feel comfortable doing it. i think i did the right thing. it's not worth a point. i didn't feel comfortable doing it with chelsea in the room. i think chelsea's a fine young lady. i didn't like doing it with chelsea in the room. >> by the way, donald trump is

arriving, we see his plane there, she's just arrived down in melbourne, florida. he will be addressing his group down there. we'll get to that when he hits the hot points tonight. i'm sure he'll try to make up for last night. andrew sullivan, it's great to hear from you tonight. and i wonder why trump would pull the old nixon thing, i haven't brought it up, but people thought i should have. i was going to be a gentleman. if you're going to be a gentleman, be a gentleman and not brag about not being a bore. why would he want to get into marital fidelity? why would he choose that baby? >> i think he thinks the way she treated the women that her husband had dalliances with or sexually harassed underlines her credibility as a defender of women's issues. now, i think that does haveso se traction on the right, but i certainly don't think it does anything to win over the kind of people he needs to win over right now, basically, you know, college-educated white-collar people who are used to

republicans and wavering about him. i think it would be terrible for him to do that. so i think he made that decision and then tried to make himself seem virtuous. but if he does it next time, i think it's going to backfire really badly. >> i wonder whether -- let me go back to dana on that one. because, you know, right or wrong, you know, nobody knows anybody else's marriage but the people in the marriage, that's my sense. but going after the wife for the husband's behavior, and that's what it's going to look like, no matter how well he tries to blame her or say he did certain things to abuse the women who made charges against her husband. i want always seems like you're blaming the victim. that's the way most women look at it. and why would that benefit trump if he were to blame that up? >> i think, chris, when you have a candidate who's running a campaign partially on a war on women, you go back to what hillary clinton said about those women -- i was a child when all of this was happening. i was watchi ining all of this elementary school. i remember, specifically, hillary clinton and surrogates going after some of these women. and so, when you're talking

about a war on women and you are, your husband, for instance, with the monica lewinsky situation, you have somebody who's an intern and you have somebody who's the commander in chief, this is a person who is intelligent, who has a lot of influence, recognizes that he has a lot of influence, bear some responsibility there. to excuse his culpability in that particular situation -- >> but she never did that -- >> -- in others -- >> but she never excused him. >> i think looks disingenuous. but when she did it, she did attack the other women, what did she call them? she called them bimbos. i think that makes her look to a little, to certain people, disingenuous, and i think that needs to be taken into consideration. >> let me get back to the politics of this and not the personal wrong or right, we all know facts. i always like the way you talked about the clinton thing, eyou called it the itsy bitsy sex thing, you never denied the truth of it, but said it wasn't the most important thing on the planet. we'll go back to that area that cost the republicans all that in the '98 election. they overcharged him.

they went for impeachment, got it through the house, failed in the senate. and all it did was hurt them politically. almost to the point where gore could have won that election. anyway. what's the politics of going after the clinton issue? >> okay, first of all, since the jennifer flowers thing, bill clinton has won two presidential elections, hillary clinton has won two senate elections. she's now the nominee of a party. she was overwhelmingly confirmed as secretary of state. if you want to talk about a old news, that's more like ancient news. and here we are, you know, talking about 2016. and look at all of the clinton accusers. well, where is bob livingston today? where's denny hastert today? where's kim star today. where are all of the people that accused bill clinton, you know -- >> newt gingrich. >> and i think a country -- >> you forget newt! >> you go through the whole list of them, you know, and everybody understands what happened -- >> james, how did you become so lucky? how did you become so

serendipitous that every main charge, including ken starr, has been somehow blemished by history since -- >> i got lucky, because the hypocrisy of going after him, when all of these people are -- i mean, what ken starr did was, he didn't pursue these allegations of sexual misconduct. he lost his job. look at what happened to denny hastert. he's going to jail. and these people were all so self-righteous. they couldn't get over the fact that, oh, my god, someone had consensual sex. the whole country falls apart. >> some people have been divorced and have had good second marriages -- >> we don't even need to talk about the personal. >> dana, if trump goes after hillary on any of this area, it seems to me he will then have to play defense on his life's situation. i don't think that is going to work. >> i don't think he will. that was just one of his offshoots. i'm not going to speak for him -- >> jennifer flowers is going to sit in the first row and make goo-goo eyes -- >> that was funny, come on.

politics is theater. everyone who is assembled in this panel is well aware politics is theater. >> sure, but what kind of theater do you want? >> james is a master of it. >> i'm not making a moral judgment, just thinking that jennifer flowers is an issue. >> i don't think we need to focus on the personal issues of the '90s. her record, chris, you asked me about benghazi, she had lied it was a terrorist attack in e-mails. that's enough. you have new current. >> it's not enough. i think the focus has been to inferentially to say that she cost him his life, and the situation at that facility was never secure. and the charge to me, which would be damning against hillary if it were ever provener ever true, that she failed to do everything she could to save him when the signal came that he was in danger, that he was under attack. that's to me the heart of it. and the people on your side have kept trying to insinuate that she didn't respond and try to save him. >> but, chris, why would she in

classified e-mails that were released, maybe the methods of which we may not agree on, but it came out nonetheless, that showed that she was telling the parents that it was a protest from a video that she knew well and clear that it was a terrorist attack. >> i don't think there's evidence of derelict of duty. she spent 11 hours defending herself. i don't have to do it. so here's donald trump, the first responder, the first firefighter. here we go. he's not making -- we assume he's going to talk directly about last night. >> oh, wow. thank you, everybody. thank you. thank you. wow. what a group! and we have 12,000 people outside that still can't get in. we'll get them out on the runway. we'll put them out on the runway. we have 12,000 people outside. it's incredible. they're coming in. look at this. we are going to win florida so

big. it's going to be amazing. this is a movement like they have never seen before. never. last night was very exciting and almost every single poll had us winning the debate against crooked hillary clinton big league. big league. she is as crooked as they come. and i'll tell you what, check out. we put them out today, almost every poll, so that was an exciting evening for me, folks. that was an exciting evening. and it set the all-time record for debates and maybe television. who knows. look at this crowd. look at this. this is amazing.

unbelievable. have i'll tell you what. is there any place more fun or safer to be than at a trmp rally? right? right? we're going to take on the special interests, the lobbyists, and the corrupt corporate media, right back there. they are as corrupt as you can get. you know, the single weapon that hillary clinton has -- i mean, she couldn't even pass her bar exam in washington, d.c. she failed it. the single weapon that she's got

is the media. without the mainstream media, she wouldn't even be here, folks. that i can tell you. she wouldn't even be here. she would haven't a chance. so we're going to create a new government that serves you, your family, and your country and it's going to be the kind of government that you've been looking for for a long time. you know, i was in the plane and i came in and i said, wow, and we do have these crowds elsewhere, but they said the fire marshal closed us down, won't let 12,000 people in. but then when i looked at this, i said, now i understand. where's the fire marshal? fire marshal, let 'em in, please. okay? let 'em in. let 'em in, fire marshal! let 'em in.

our country is filled with so many amazing people. people who lift us up and inspire us. and by the way, i have one of them here. where's rudy giuliani? rudy! rudy! we love rudy. look at him. look at him. he's a good man. we lost one great person in a heartbreaking accident on sunday. marlins pitcher, jose fernandez, and he was some pitcher. he died at the age of 24. i just spoke to jeff, the owner of the team, who is heartbroken.

it's a huge loss for the state, for the entire spofrt baseball and for all of the americans who are so inspired watching him play at 24, just about as good a pitcher as there ever was at that age. so we send our deepest condolences to his wife and family during this very painful time. our country also lost one of our truly great american icons. the king, the king, arnold palmer. i was always very proud to call arnold my friend. he was a truly great man. his legendary accomplishments on the course are well known. his fearless style of play, his love of the fans and his working

class charm made him an icon to legions of americans. his accomplishment off the field was probably even greater, including his charity work and all of the thousands of lives that he's made better. arnie was a symbol for america and he will be sorely missed. >> let me go back to an drew sullivan. andrew, you know history like i do, and i was always impressed that richard nixon could slam the hell out of jack kennedy until he was in the same room with him in a debate and he couldn't do it. trump could not be trump last night. why can he be trump now? what is it that turns him away from taking on hillary when she looks him in the eye? >> he's lived in a bubble in which he is the supreme leader, for a very long time, a very rich person. he's never actually had a one on one with an equal, having to give and take, having to accept this other person has as much

legitimacy as he does. he just hasn't that in his experience, because he's, his own boss and running his own empire for so long. so when that happens, he can't handle. just as his braggadocious belligerence, when he's away from people, suddenly evaporates, he's a classic ego maniac in the sense that he's never had to deal with equals or peers. and he's also a classic bully, which is that up-front -- >> why is he afraid of hillary when he faces her in debate, like last night? >> because he knows that she knows more than he does. >> let's go back. are we going back to that? let's go back to trump for a second. >> for 90 minutes, on issue after issue, hillary clinton defended the terrible status quo while i laid out our plan, all of us together, to bring jobs, security, and prosperity back to

the american people. for 90 minutes she argued against change, while i called for dramatic change. we have to have dramatic change. we have to get rid of obamacare. we have to strengthen up our depleted military. it's in such bad shape. we're going to do a lot of great things, folks. november 8th, you have to get out there and vote. you know, you've seen all the polls, and if you look -- i don't just mean the debating polls. those were things of beauty. one after one, "time" magazine, places don't even like me, although i have been on the cover of "time" a helluva a lot, lately, i have to say. drudge, first of all, he's a fantastic guy, but drudge, it was 80 to 20%, trump.

80 to 20. but more importantly, when you look at the different polls, we're up two nationally in cnn. most importantly, you look at the states. we're leading in florida. [ cheers and applause ] we're leading in ohio. we're leading in iowa by a lot. we're leading in north carolina. we have states that don't normally think in terms of republican, which is us. it's us. don't call us anything. it's just us. you know what it means? it means, common sense. it means bringing civility back to our country. it means law and order and protecting our police and being very careful with everybody

els else. >> andrew, last night, hillary clinton had a strategy, which turned out to be very effective, which is to engage a bit on the issues, but quickly pivot to the question of donald trump's business practices, his claims to being an 11 times billionaire, his claims to be self-made. and all in all of that, his claim to be transparency, she hit him on the taxes, hit him on everything, and finally ended up hitting him on his attitude towards women and the words he's used, pigs, and all that sort of thing. she got to him and he never looked good last night. he was sweating, he was going for water like marco rubio did. he was physically out of sorts, it seemed, last night. what is her strength against him? is it just equality? is that what he fears? i'm asking you. >> well, i think she had to go personally, because i think she's been winning this election the last six weeks. he's right about those polls. he's been surging everywhere. and because he's surging for two

reasons. he represents real change to people. i think disastrous, but nonetheless, it's real change. and he also represents an outsider. so she is really up against -- and those are two core issues in this election, which are in his favor. that's why he's been winning this election the last six weeks, until last night. so she has to somehow, she can't be the change agent, and she can't be the outsider. so she has to go at his personal qualities, to be president of the united states and one of the key things is his business record. and the other thing is the way that he has treated people weaker than him, people who aren't as powerful as him through his career. and he has treated them with cruelty and contempt and derision, in a way that no one that has run for president of the united states in my living memory has done. and that's why she had to do this. otherwise, chris, i think she really has been on the ropes. and i hope this turns it around, but i don't think it has been a

decisive victory. i think she's checked him temporarily. >> james, you look very healthy and i'm very happy about that. you've been taking care of yourself, which is very good news for me. james carville, you're always brilliant. and keep up the fight. it's a tough one. >> thank you, chris. >> we'll continue to watch donald trump at that rally. wherever he says something important or newsworthy, we're going to go to it. coming up, if donald trump is hoping to make inroads with suburban women voters, slamming a former miss universe winner for gaining, quote, a massive amount of weight, doesn't seem to be a good strategy. we'll get to the red-hot flash points exposed on gender and we'll get to race. i think gender will be the thing we start with next. and tomorrow it's the return of the "hardball" college tour. boy, do i love this. gary johnson who's getting double digits, bill weld, the former very popular governor of massachusetts. the libertarian ticket, live from new hampshire. i'll get to these folks and see if they are an alternative or spoilers, maybe both, we'll see. this is "hardball," the place for politics. g new cars.

you're smart. you already knew that. but it's also great for finding the perfect used car. you'll see what a fair price is, and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. now you're even smarter. this is truecar.

how canlike springtime?washed 12 weeks ago and still smell unstopables in-wash scent boosters. the more you pour, the more scent you'll savor. toss it in before your clothes for luxurious scent up to 12 weeks. unstopables by downy. the ultimate in long lasting scent. when you're close to the people you love,

does psoriasis ever get in the way of a touching moment? if you have moderate to severe psoriasis, you can embrace the chance of completely clear skin with taltz. taltz is proven to give you a chance at completely clear skin. with taltz, up to 90% of patients had a significant improvement of their psoriasis plaques. in fact, 4 out of 10 even achieved completely clear skin. do not use if you are allergic to taltz. before starting you should be checked for tuberculosis. taltz may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you are being treated for an infection or have symptoms. or if you have received a vaccine or plan to. inflammatory bowel disease can happen with taltz. including worsening of symptoms. serious allergic reactions can occur. now's your chance at completely clear skin. just ask your doctor about taltz.

we're going to keep an eye on that podium down in melbourne, florida, where trump has that big rally down there of 12,000 people. his first big rally since last night's debate and he has to make up for what happened since last night. we'll be eager to hear what he has to say about his performance. as the candidates clashed over a number of issues last night, the points when hillary clinton seemed to land her most powerful punches came when the debate veered from policy and into areas addressing race and gender, especially gender.

let's watch. >> donald started his career back in 1973 being sued by the justice department for racial discrimination. so he has a long record of engaging in racist behavior. >> wow, well, clinton also hit trump hard on past comments he's made about women, in particular, she mentioned the former winner of miss universe, alicia ma mamakhada. take a listen. >> one of the worst things he said, was about a woman in a beauty contest. he loves supporting them and hanging around them. and he called this woman "miss piggy." then he called her, "miss housekeeping," because she was latino. donald, she has a name -- >> where did you find this? >> her name is alicia machado and she has become a u.s. citizen -- >> oh, really? >> and you can bet she's going to vote this november.

>> this morning on fox news, donald trump defended hills, calling the former miss universe difficult, and his word, "the worst." here he is. >> she was the winner and you know, she gained a massive amount of weight. and it was a real problem. we had a real problem. not only that, her attitude, and we had a real problem with her. so, hillary went back into the years and she found this girl. this has been years ago. and found a girl and talked about her like she was mother teresa. and it wasn't quite that way, but that's okay, you know? >> well, that's okay, she wasn't quite mother teresa. you can go with that you want. joining me right now is boris epshteyn, trump campaign's senior adviser, and april ryan. april, you have an attitude, i can tell, and it's appropriate to this discussion. because he talks about women and minorities in this case. and let's start with the gender thing. machado was a young -- well, she was still a girl, she was 18. you could argue a girl, a young woman at the time that he put

her into that fitness center, with the cameras on her, telling her to lose some poundage. clearly, that's a question about how you treat other human beings, i think. hillary clinton hit on it, hard, last night. your thoughts? april? >> oh, i'm sorry. well, here we go. number one, chris, here's the problem. he was a professional contestant, beauty pageant person, who basically talked about a woman that he was promoting. he talked about this woman that was not professional to discuss and disclose what her problems were. number two, you know, to call her "miss piggy" because she ate -- i mean, how many of us have had issues with weight back and forth? and donald trump doesn't seem to be the smallest person, as well. no one called him orange. and then the next thing -- >> actually, a lot of democrats do. >> well, anyway, moving on, because you're going to have your time to speak. and then to call her "miss housekeeping." that's very stereotypical, it's

very degrading. it's -- donald trump seems to be the person who really wants to deal with women who are trophies, who can stand on someone's arm, but there are a lot of o other women, particularly the women who he's trying to bring into the fold of the republican party to vote for him who don't look like that model size or that pageant contestant. so he's got a lot of work to do -- >> what do you make -- april, what do you make of her shot at him. he likes hanging around these contests. what was she up to there? "hanging around," was that something personally she was nailing there? let's face it -- >> she may have been, but he's -- you have to remember, he's also into entertainment. i've also heard that he likes hanging around rappers or hanging around people who come to his casinos or hotels -- >> what's the big deal with that? >> people in entertainment. he's very much into the glitz and limelight. but when it comes to real people, it seems like he has a deficit there. >> that's very funny. >> okay, boris -- >> that's funny -- >> i'm glad you think it's

funny. >> this is one of the areas where i thought donald trump should have been prepared, because megyn kelly went after him on this. everybody knows what she said about him. she went through the whole rosie o'donnell number. and here we are again. these are familiar points of attack and he didn't seem ready. >> well, first of all, as far as hanging out with celebrities, nobody likes to sip champagne and cocktails with celebrities like hillary clinton. she's always out in the hamptons -- >> that's not what she was saying. she was hitting him for hanging around at beauty contests,s is beautiful young women. >> she could also talk about her husband liking to do that, as well. there are plenty of pictures out there. i think all of this is a huge distraction from the issues people actually carry about. >> half the country and half the electorate are women and they care about the way they're treated. >> do you think women care about what mr. trump, who owned -- who was an investor and owned a beauty pageant 20 years ago said about a woman? >> and the bill clinton issue was 20 years ago. the bill clinton issue was 20 years ago, as well, and that was not hillary, that was bill clinton. >> okay, you spoke, may i speak?

thank you so much. >> you're welcome. >> so the real issues people care about in this country are the economy, we haven't had 3% gdp growth in eight years, national security, defense. that's what they care about. >> he didn't bring those up? >> yes, he did. he did talk about isis. >> if you want to talk about treatment of women, hillary had her lawyer threaten naked pictures of paula jones to bully her into not coming out against bill clinton. we know that. >> i don't know that. >> they smeared those women. they smeared jennifer flowers. they smeared -- tried to smear monica lewinsky. if i were hillary clinton, i wouldn't go around and act as if i'm a big defender of women, because her history, just like her history -- >> anyway, that settled that case and they paid that amount of money. let me ask you about this implicit threat by donald trump that he might just talk about, it's an old nixonian tripe, like, i could have brought up the behavior of her husband, ten abling charge she's made before, do you think he should in the next debate go after her, personally, for bill's behavior?

>> if hillary clinton continues to go after him personally with made-up charges from this one, from a woman who was disgruntled -- >> made-up? do you think she made up -- we have video of her in the workout room with cameras on her. >> she wanted to be in the pageant. i don't want to litigate that the issue. if hillary clinton continues to go after him personally, he is free to go after her history, which is -- >> chris -- >> let me go back to april. let's watch this merry go around. if we get on the merry go around of sex and misbehavior, it's going to go all the way around 306 360 degrees. >> ivana versus marla. that was played out on public television. she's got to back off. i remember watching regis and kathie lee. kathie lee hit -- >> why doesn't he back off -- >> -- marla maples back when they were having an affair. if you want to -- >> i can't even follow this. you lost me at the turn there. >> i don't know what you're talking about --

>> it was gossipy back then. it was 20 years ago -- >> let's ask the question, very objectively, you're both journalists now. is bill clinton's behavior as a husband relevant to this presidential election? yes or no? >> hillary clinton's behavior and response to that behavior is relevant. >> what? >> hillary clinton's behavior and her response -- >> what is that behavior? >> she was an enabler and she bullied -- >> april, your thoughts. is it relevant, their marriage? >> it all depends ho the question is asked. if the question is about what hillary clinton did staying with her husband, you know, that's their marriage. donald trump has issues, but if it's something that she did -- if it's something specifically that she did to the women, that's the issue. it's not about -- it's not about bill clinton and his issues 20 years ago. >> make the charges when we have enough preparation, all of us, to know whether any of this true. boris epshteyn, thank you so much. april, you're my pal, you're great. and i do watch your -- last night, did you like the split

screen? a lot of last night was reaction faces. it's a new kind of debate with the split screen. and by the way, you're right now on a split screen and i'm watching you. by the way, i'm in the larger screen right now. >> i see you, chris. >> up next, we're going to step away from the debate for just a minute, because today we learned and heard the big bombshell accusation that governor chris christie of new jersey knew all about bridgegate as it was happening in realtime. that's what one of christie's former top aides testified to under oath in court today. well, there's always the truth and not the truth, but apparently this guy had the nerved to say it under oath. that's serious business and this is "hardball," the place for politics. (sigh) my insurance rates are probably gonna double. but dad, you've got... allstate. with accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. indeed. it's good to be in, good hands. did you know kids who play outdoors have healthier lungs? totally. did you know that boys that play with dolls make better husbands? my son has lots of dolls.

but did you know terry cloth diapers breathe better? i did. oh, yeah, yeah. did you guys know statistically friendly kids have more friends? yeah. that's obvious. did you know most people think they're using the right car seat for their kid, but they're not? announcer: parents who really know it all know for sure that their child is in the right seat. visit safercar.gov/therightseat to make sure your child is protected.

let's just get a sandwich or something. "or something"? you don't just graduate from medical school, "or something." and we don't just pull smoked chicken, bake fresh foccacia and hand-slice avocado. there's nothing "or something" about it. narrator: it wasn't that long ago. years of devastating cutbacks to our schools. 30,000 teachers laid off. class sizes increased. art and music programs cut. we can't ever go back. ryan ruelas: so vote yes on proposition 55. reagan duncan: prop 55 prevents 4 billion in new cuts to our schools. letty muñoz-gonzalez: simply by maintaining the current tax rate on the wealthiest californians. ryan ruelas: no new education cuts,

and no new taxes. reagan duncan: vote yes on 55. sarah morgan: to help our children thrive. welcome back to "hardball." a former top aide and a one-time ally to new jersey governor chris christie in court today for the prosecution against two former christie aides over the george washington bridge scandal made some testimony. the official, david wilestein,

who is the prosecution's main witness, testified in detail that he informed governor christie's, he informed him of the plot to close that george washington bridge as it was underway on september 11th, 2013, during a 9/11 memorial event. according to waldstein, christie was happy and even joked about this. steve kornacki is an anchor and reporter for msnbc. steve, you've been on this case from the beginning. up until now, it was, we have hard evidence that he knew. now the testimony of wildstein himself. he's involved in a plea bargain. is he credible? >> that's the question here. and look, they have also, the prosecution and defense is going to -- the defense, issued say, is going to bring out his political past as a political dark arts specialist. and they're going to -- they have already put this story out there that they got him to admit under oath, when he was 21, 22 years old, he stole senator frank lautenberg's jacket before a debate to try to get into his head. they're sort of saying, this is

his character as a political was a political operative, and that bill baroni knew about this. she was lo he says, look, i hope to avoid jail time by cutting this. >> when you listen to the testimony about what the governor overhead and how he responded, was it incriminating. did it seem like he agreed enough with the plot to be part of it? >> that's the question. there's two elements. one, there's this conversation that take place. this is basically day three of the lane closures. wildstein is now saying, here's the conversation. me and baroni are talking to him and we tell him what's going on and the governor's joking with us about it, so he understands. the other thing that wildstein testified, though, is christie's campaign manager at the time, remember, christie's running for re-election as governor, he said he told christie's campaign manager before the shutdown what was going on and the campaign manager's response was, what's your cover story? >> what dreyfuives me in this t,

iz h original response to the charge that he was involved, he said, yeah, i'm the guy that put the cones out there. reaching away and pushing himself away from the act of doing it, to the point where he's saying, i didn't do that, which opened up the question, did he know about it? >> and so -- >> he wasn't denying knowing about it at the time, he was denying putting the cones out personally. >> and what he's acknowledged -- what's come out before, supposedly when this conversation took place, yeah, he might have said something to me and i didn't understand. >> i don't remember, i didn't understand is a good way of pleading the fifth. i can't believe the governor is out there campaigning hard last night as part of the surrogate role he had. i don't know how he can do that and at the same time worry about this stuff. >> imagine if he had been the vp candidate. >> this has bill clinton ability, to be able to compartment compartmentalize. steve kornacki, it's your story. >> there were some other people. >> up next, we'll see how trump and clinton fared last night based on the "hardball" rules in terms of win or lose in the

debate. where do the candidates follow our playbook and when do they flame out. we'll check this whole thing against the way you do a debate. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. nd burns nd burns its way into your day, i hear you. to everyone with this pain that makes ordinary tasks extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you. ♪a one, a two, a three percent cnext.ack♪ there's gotta be a better way to find the right card. creditcards.com lets you compare hundreds of cards to find the one that's right for you. just search, compare, and apply at creditcards.com. you're hetruck, suv. used car, that's smart. truecar can help. it's great for finding a new car,

but you already knew that. it's also great for finding the perfect used car. you'll see what a fair price is, and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. so, no matter what you're looking for... there it is. this is how buying a used car should be. this is truecar. ♪ welcome back to "hardball." last week, we debuted our "hardball" rules for how to win or lose a debate. and tonight we ask how hillary clinton and donald trump stacked up against those rules in their first face-to-face confrontation last night. and with us for, that is, the

roundtable itself. carolyn ryan is senior editor for politics at "the new york times." and megan murphy is washington bureau chief. boy, the heavyweights for bloomberg. bloomberg. one-liners work even if they've been rehearsed. a well-time zinger can effectively shut down an opponent's attacks. last night we saw that hillary clinton came equipped with an effective rebuttal to donald trump's stamina, the looks, he actually said. >> as soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a release of dissidents, an opening of new opportunities in nations around the world or even spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee, he can talk to me about stamina. >> the world -- >> she had a ringers out there

in the audience or not, they jumped for that. maybe they were told ahead of time that this is the big one. and it was. >> another effective line is when she talked about preparation for the debate and preparation to be president. i thought her line against him on taxes really would appeal to independent voters and moderate voters, those who are still undecided. how can you appeal to teachers and police officers and other law enforcement agency workers if you don't pay your taxes yourself. you said zero for veterans, zero for homeland security. finally when she talked about race, you look at the number she'll have to generate amongst african-american and latino voters. i thought it was a strategic way go after it. trump never stood up for 90 minutes and practiced. you could tell. he was good the first 25 minutes. i don't care how old you are. >> in previous debates, rule number two. show your heart. hillary clinton last night did make an effort to relate to the

audience personally in a personal way i think to get by the $250,000 speeches, when she told the story of her father's small business. she connected it to the argument that trump has too often stiffed his contractors that did business for him. let's watch this. >> my father was a small businessman. he worked really hard. he printed drapery fabrics on long tables where he pulled out those fabrics and he went down with a silk screen and dumped the paint in and took the squeegee and kept going. i can only say that i'm certainly relieved that my late father never did business with you. he provided a good middle class life for us, but the people he worked for, he expected the bargain to be kept on both sides. >> now, you know, she didn't weave this together. like a good columnist, she opens with this guy is my regular guy. and ends up with donald trump is the guy that screws regular guys. she put it together. >> people want to hear stories and people are hungry to hear what's in her heart.

she did connect this to something bigger that people are questioning about his character. it felt like she was really effective. i think people are still hungry to hear more of her heart, though. there wasn't another instance in the debate where she did that. >> she seems too finished, like bill clinton had this problem, too. he lks like the rhodes scholar, but he wasn't always a rhodes scholar. he was a kid from the country with a mother who was raising him by herself. you have to get back to that to win. >> the stories about her family i don't really resonated. >> why? because she's too elite. >> when you look at the sort of amount of money they've made people don't connect her to that upbringing anymore. she was far more authentic when she talked about president obama and how he felt about the birther claim ks and at the end about gender. >> his dignity and had to show his driver's license. >> him personally as the first black president. >> you may have heard it, but he'll get even. debate rule number three. it's television, stupid.

on this count voters are often influenced by nonverbal cues. many have pointed out that trump last night was constantly -- it's not my fault to use this word -- sniffling throughout the debate as if he had a cold. let's watch some of that. >> she's in deep trouble. we don't -- agreement. is that okay? the agreement's better. the bigger numbers than ever. >> blow your nose. i mean, what is going on with this guy? was it al gore who was sighing. >> the sighs. they had him watch "saturday night live" so he saw how distracting it was. there is a real distraction that comes from watching him. and we actually put a reporter last night into a room and had him turn the sound off on this debate and watch the entire thing in a kind of sealed off. and you could tell what was going on and trump was distracting, he was impatient. he was upset. and she was quite happy. >> hillary practiced. you got stand for 90 minutes.

i'm sniffling a little myself. i hope you don't harriet. >> let me ask you about lawyers because the guys before hillary clinton, al gore who went to law school, he had the influence of all those -- what do you call, subjunctive clauses, what do you call them? subordinate clauses and screwing up your and it seems like the lawyerly mind doesn't work in debates. where hillary clinton used a lawyerly context. and i thought in a charming way she looked like she was having fun. people like to see a candidate having fun. >> not only did she look like she was having fun, she understood what was at stake. the lines about i hear your point about maybe not connecting, but it had a substantive zing to it. he hadn't paid his bills. and how can you preach to us when you haven't paid your own bills. >> don't say it's smart that i

don't pay taxes. people out there doing the short form. >> if you don't pay taxes, the irs comes after you. i guess they're coming after him, too, because he got audited 12 times. >> why are you always getting audited? >> look at all the irish guys here. megan murphy and my friend harold ford. >> honorary. >> we'll finish with my election diary tonight september 27th. and we look forward to the next debates. and there are three more.

election diary tuesday september 27th, 2016. you know, i keep hearing the lyrics of that old side in my head, what a difference a day made. 24 little hours. this time yesterday it was all question marks, polls tied trump beating the spread hillary unsure. tonight the earth has moved. hillary is bouncing with the pride of achievement sure beyond the debate the last night she had the right stuff the strategy the confidence the sure grip of

a prosecutor. she her rival red handed undercutting him on every point killing him softly and relentlessly before the largest audience of their rivalry. now we have a different campaign. the wide american public knows that hillary can do it. her people know she has the stuff. the trump people know their man is beatable. they've seen him knocked down repeatedly, hit and floored before their eyes. they'll not look at him the same way again. whether trump, battered and bloodied as he was last night, can bring himself to his feet. can overcome a wide public demonstration that he's not only beatable but as senator elizabeth warren put it as she could and i cannot, beatable by a girl. and that's "hardball" for now. don't forget the college tour continues tomorrow. the libertarian ticket live from the university of new hampshire. that's coming up tomorrow. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now.

tonight on "all in" -- >> did anybody see that debate last night? >> the ecstasy and the agony. >> my microphone was terrible. i wonder was it set up that way on purpose? >> the fallout, the fact checking and the ongoing fights from the most watched debate in history. >> anybody that complains about the microphone is not having a good night. >> plus -- >> he called this woman miss piggy. then he called her miss housekeeping because she was latina. donald, she has a name alicia machado. >> hillary clinton springs another trap. >> she gained a massive amount of weight, and it was a real problem. >> the republican nominee's stunning day two defense of his weight loss regimen for miss universe. >> she gained about 55 pounds in an area of nine months. she was like an eating machine. >> as some democrats