we hope so see you back here on monday night. thank you for being with us. he can't get over it. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington where there's a well-known rule in politics -- when you here in a hole, stop digging. donald trump can't stop saying he won the debate. he can't stop behaving like baghdad bob, remember him? the iraqi who kept saying they were winning the battle against the u.s. invaders and like kim jong-un saying north korea won the olympics.

trump has trapped himself in a political twilight zone where he blames everyone he can, a night on h which he claims desperately to have been the winner. if he won, you have to ask why the need for so many people to blame. while trump has been spinning his performance as a victory, an nbc online poll shows that 52%, a majority of likely voters say hillary clinton won the first debate, 26% say neither one and down in third place 21% say that trump was the victor. now trump's dismissing the debate as a rigged deal. here's what he said this afternoon. >> during the debate the other night she was saying, oh, no, she never said that. she said it. i mean, she said it. then i had to put up with the anchor and fight the anchor all the time on everything i said. what a rigged deal. >> so it's lester holt's fault now. he's blaming everybody. this comes after trump confidantes have been airing

their grievances about the candidates' lack of discipline on trump's debate prep the "new york times" report mr. trump found it hard to focus during those meetings that left mr. ailes discussing his own problems as well as recounting political war stories. well, rudy giuliani didn't have more luck once he took over for ailes. "with mr. trump receiving so much conflicting advice in those sessions he absorbed it wille of it." trump's feud with former miss universe alicia machado entered its third day with trump doubling down on his assertions about alicia machado's weight. last night on fox, trump defended his behavior and suggested he is the victim because he says he saved machado's job. take a listen. >> she did to the do well. she had a lot of difficulties and they wanted to fire her. i had nothing to do with this person but they wanted to fire her. i saved her job because i said

that would be ruins you. i theed they where a number of young ladies. but the staff itself -- look what i get out of it. i get nothing. i saved her job because they wanted to fire her for putting on so much weight. and it is a beauty contest. say what you want, bill, they know what they're getting into. it's a beauty contest. i said don't try that, let her try to lose the weight then i end up in a position like this. that's the way it is. >> now nbc news has obtained an internal trump campaign memo that advises surrogates out there on how to respond to respond to questions about the beauty contest winner. joining me now is katy tur, robert costa is a "washington post" reporter, kathleen parker, opinion writer for the "washington post" as well. katy, give me a sense, you know everything about this fight. i'm trying to keep up with it. i'll start with my rule, when you're in a hole, stop digging. why does he keep talking about a beauty contestant 20 years ago?

why does he wrap himself in this twilight zone existence he can't win? there's no way he can win this argument. he looks like the bad guy in this incident. why doesn't he let it go? >> it a teooit's the same thing with judge curiel when he was talking about how he wasn't f r fair. the same thing he did with the gold star families and the khans. he wants to defend himself, he can't let it go and when he does that he digs himself into a deeper hole. i'm not sure how women will react. those suburban women that he is trying to get when he says he was protecting this woman because she got too big and for that matter the president of the miss universe pageant told the "washington post" at the time in 1997 that the idea that she was going to be decrowned or lose her job was bogus, that wasn't happening so this was debunked 20 years ago.

donald trump is continuing that narrative and so is his campaign. kellyanne conway saying both last night and today on "the view." so i'm not sure why the campaign is going forward with it. they've released this internal -- not released but obtained an internal memo that says wherever surrogates are asked about machado they should pivot to hillary clinton saying she is trying to present herself as a feminist champion and that's a joke and encouraging those surrogates to say hillary clinton attacked monica lewinsky and attacked paula jones and gennifer flowers. they are enabling this story to live longer than it should. conservative talk radio is getting upset about this. including an iowa talk radio hostaying donald trump doesn't have the ability to let go, that he keeps digging himself into a hole. as you said, chris, when you're digging a hole, stop digging. >> the question i have to ask is a very political one. it's not a moral one in this sense. baghdad bob, we laugh about him because he was the iraqi

official who kept say they're winning a war they're clearly losing. king jo kim jong-un said they won the olympics in north korea. people, you lose all credibility when you say things are not true when they are. he lost the dpe baebate. he has a problem with this young contestant, she was 18, an immigrant from venezuela, he's going to be the bad guy and that's the way it's going to be and he thinks he can win the argument? >> let me give you a counter vision. donald trump has been doing this thing since this campaign started. he often talks about crowd sizes being much larger than they are. he did it again today saying that there were thousands of people inside this venue when the place only holds about 1200, maybe 1800 people and there were a little more than a thousand people here. he said there were 3,000 people waiting outside when there was not anyone waiting outside. he has been presenting things that aren't true as a fact now for quite a while.

that's why he won the primaries. ma what he has not realized, that's because the polls are tight, is that it will hurt him in the general election. we'll have to see how it plays out because this has been such a topsy-turvy campaign. the polls are so close and, chris, if there's one thing i learned on this campaign trail it's that donald trump pays attention to the polls more than he pays attention to anything else. more than he pays attention to his advisors or his kids. if he stays close in the polls, he's not going to see a reason to change. if he drops down, then we'll see more debate prep, then we might see him stray or get away from these negative topics. this thing is particularly bad because there is so much past comments from trump that are negative towards women. there are countless howard stern interviews where he talks about how it's hard to be a 10 if you're flat chested. this enables his detractors to

dredge this back up and say donald trump is not a champion of women. >> he was in another business it's clear. in a speech to the log cabin republicans last night, newt gingrich said "you're not supposed to gain 60 pounds during the year you peer miss universe." asked about trump's behavior toward women on fox last night, trump campaign manager kellyanne conway tried to refocus the debate on hillary clinton's negative ad campaign. here ee's kellyanne. >> i'm wondering why she's spending tens of millions of dollars in negative ads and never putting together an aspirational positive -- >> because she's kilng him with women and she sees an advantage there and she's trying to exploit it. my question to you is whether he needs to come up with a better answer than telling "fox and friends" she gained a bunch of weight and she was a real problem. >> now we're conflating different things. what i would say to that is this. he should speak to america's women based on the issues about

which they care. >> well, we'll talk about that right now. here's kellyanne conway herself defending trump's treatment of machado, the beauty contest taptap tonight on the view today. >> in the past he's called her an eat magazine. i feel uncomfortable with it as a woman but i'm curious about you felt? >> i don't discuss people's weights and their looks. i'm sure on your twitter feed right now you have viewers discussing my looks and intelligence. >> did you reprimand him and say listen, why are you calling women fat pigs? did you say that to him? >> yes, i think it's decide the point. >> what did he say? >> hold on, he gave that particular woman a second chance. she obviously has a troubled fast i won't get into. >> so what? that has nothing to do with her being fat or skinny. >> this is going into a terrain where it's clearly clear, kathleen, that trump can't win. and poor kellyanne who i've known forever, she has to flank this. that's how you break your pick when you go into a political

argument on behalf of a candidate with an unwinnable argument that undercuts you in all arguments because people say if you're willing to defend that we can't rely on what you're telling us. >> i feel sorry for her. but look the reason he is doing this and the reason he can't let go, he is developmentally a child. he can't admit ever being wrong. he'll never apologize for saying something rude or crowd. he's immature. >> can he pull back, robert and say it's a beauty contest, i don't set the rules, it's based on appearance, there's a prejudice towards thin, it's been going on for a while, i'm there doing a job. or should he just say, you know, i wasn't at my best that time, i should have been much more compassiona

compassionate, much more empathetic and stop being such a bad guy. how do you step back from these situations which are embarrassing in 2016 when your number-one target are women and young women in the suburbs and you're trying to win them over. >> my reporting tells me inside of trump's campaign at trump tower there's not a sense of stepping back. what they are is frustrated in their minds. >> why are we talking about this crap? >> they think trump left a weapon on the side. that he didn't go after the clintons, didn't pivot. i spoke to rudy giuliani a few minutes ago and he says there's so much donald trump can say about the clinton's past. >> what? what are they talking about? >> people like newt gingrich are saying to the trump campaign "hey, maybe this isn't the best way to go down." >> look, i'm not into morality on this program. we're talking about politics. three marriages newt, three marriages trump, three marriages -- who's the other guy? giuliani.

i don't hold them against them at all but politically -- >> they're taking the moral high road here, really? >> these are glass houses that's all i'm saying. why do they want to talk about this stuff. >> there's nothing else to talk about. there's no policy to talk about so let's talk about fat women. >> but the notion there's treasure trove -- this is what happened. the republicans impeached bill clinton. they spent a whole summer going after him. okay, okay. they may have had an argument morally, whatever, they had a case. but look what happened, the republicans lost the congress. hillary clinton got elected to the senate because she stood up to this and she showed guts and poise and everybody else looked like a crazy person. the evidence is hillary knows how to handle this topic. she'll look good. nobody will blame her for bill. what do you think they think? >> i've been speaking to them for the last few hours and my

sense is the way the machado question came at the end of the debate they all walked out at hofstra into the spin room frustrated that trump didn't come back in a certain way so ever since that night at hofstra they've been talking amongst each other saying when it comes to st. louis on october 9 he'll go right back. >> let's go back to katy tur. my general notion is that trump is making the same mistake tuesday, wednesday, thursday, that he made on monday night which is playing defense on personal history stuff he should have talked about jobs, immigration and go to your basics win the battle on your winning issues and stop playing on the enemy's territory. >> that's what he's trying to do. he tried to do that today in new hampshire. he tried to move on from that subject and they came out with a whole -- a cache of new catchy talking points saying that

hillary clinton is corrupt and follow the money and then tal g talking about five people that got immunity. there's an issue that we aren't talking about when it comes to trump and women, it's not just his words, it's how his supporters behave and comport themselves at these rallies. you have many supporters wearing shirts that i couldn't repeat to you on camera talking about hillary clinton and monica lewinsky. you have shirts that say trump that b. you have children calling hillary clinton a b word. a couple days nag florida i saw a shirt that said "i wish hillary married o.j." these are images that are out there and it's not just the candidate, it is the campaign supporters that are pushing this narrative that he is not a champion of women. and when you're trying to target suburban women or women who don't think donald trump is stable, they don't think he's

trustworthy to get into the white house. they don't think that his interests are their interests, they don't think he's going to fight for them or maybe they're wary of how he's tweet edtreate in the past, nothing will fix that if you see supporters wearing shirts like this and using terminology and chants like the ones we hear. >> i'm echoing in my head be what he said to me back in march when i had my last interview. he said there has to be some sort of punishmen for abortion. here he is talking about weight issues, eating disorders, things like that are all on people's minds. it is a crying situation we have to face in our society that people do worry, mothers worry about it, their kids worry about it, mothers worry about their kids. too much of it, it's like the barbie doll debate. why do we have a barbie doll with a certain notion of what women is supposed to look like. this is sensitive stuff and when he starts talking about -- what's the right word? punishing a woman for gaining weight he's right back into that problem area where he talked

about abortion. punishing people because of situations they find themselves in with eating situations and not even disorders, he just doesn't like the look. i'm telling you this is a problem for him because talk to any human being and most voters are women. somebody will have to tell them that to him. most voters are women. that's all i'm saying. katy tur, hung. off hell of a story you're following. robert costa, another case. coming up, the emmy award winning actor bradley whitford and other stars from the west wing are on the campaign trail. he's coming here. and later, diary for tonight, september 29, with 40 days to go before the election, this is "hardball," the place for politics. ugly face of hers. she's a slob. she ate like a pig. a person who's flat chested is very hard to be a 10. does she have a good body? no.

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all the generals respect is hillary clinton. >> imagine what this man -- we all know who he is -- what the ramifications will be for decades upon decades upon decades. >> politics isn't entertainment, it isn't a joke, it isn't just a cool place to set a television show. politics is the way that we create our moral vision. we're back and that was emmy award winning actor bradley whitford and other stars from the hit tv series "the west wing" on the campaign trail in ohio for hillary clinton. bradley whitford joins us now. i know you're here for the national election but your performance as hubert humphrey was stunning. i'm watching the thing in the movie and i'm saying "i know that guy! i swear i know that guy from somewhere." and i know you pretty well and i'm thinking my god, that's bradley whitford. compare a guy like hubert

humphrey who spent his whole life fighting for civil rights with donald trump. here's your easy one, compare those two. >> i tell you, it's the same comparison i feel between trump and hillary clinton. you know, as an actor you think about what is your motivation? her motivation for her entire professional life has been to speak out for children, women's right, civil rights, rights for people in all communities and donald trump on the other hand, his motivation is accumulation of attention and money. >> this seems like a different kind of a life. it's not just as symmetric in terms of personalities and motivations. "usa today" came out tonight, they're endorsing against trump. papers like the newspaper down in texas, the dallas paper

people that are normally republican, establishment, are dismayed by trump. dismayed. >> i have to say, i always used to joke the fakest thing aside from my teeth about "the west wing" was that we had rational republicans and one of the things that really upsets me is an election is not a personality contest, it's an opportunity for us to have an important discussion about how to face these tremendously urgent issues and this rodeo clown has sucked the oxygen out of the room and i think it's -- it's not good for us. >> you're a serious guy, thank you so much. and a hell of an actor. i love your hubert humphrey, i mean. >> it i love hubert. >> you made him come alive. >> [ as hubert humphrey ] well, thank you, thank you so much. when we return, my election diary with just 40 days left until the campaign season ends with an election.

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. election diary, thursday, september 29. we're getting sound numbers on how monday's debate affected the election. one shift among women. if you look at it from a before-and-after way, there are three times as many women now having a more favorable opinion of hillary clinton than those who now have a more favorable opinion of donald trump. three times as many. the number of women having a worse opinion of donald trump as a result of as a result of having a worse opinion than hillary, so what's come founding from a political point of view is trump's inability to put monday night's debate behind him. he can't shake it. can't take the loss and move on. he seems to be a prisoner of monday night, repeating it over and over again like an episode in the twilight zone. that's the diary with 40 days till the election. that's "hardball," thanks for being with us, join me again tomorrow night at 7:00 eastern, see you then.

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