he can't get over it. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington where there's a well-known rule in politics -- when you here in a hole, stop digging. donald trump can't stop saying he won the debate. he can't stop behaving like baghdad bob, remember him? the iraqi who kept saying they were winning the battle against the u.s. invaders and like kim jong-un saying north korea won the olympics.

trump has trapped himself in a political twilight zone where he blames everyone he can, a night on h which he claims desperately to have been the winner. if he won, you have to ask why the need for so many people to blame. while trump has been spinning his performance as a victory, an nbc online poll shows that 52%, a majority of likely voters say hillary clinton won the first debate, 26% say neither one and down in third place 21% say that trump was the victor. now trump's dismissing the debate as a rigged deal. here's what he said this afternoon. >> during the debate the other night she was saying, oh, no, she never said that. she said it. i mean, she said it. then i had to put up with the anchor and fight the anchor all the time on everything i said. what a rigged deal. >> so it's lester holt's fault now. he's blaming everybody. this comes after trump confidantes have been airing their grievances about the

candidates' lack of discipline on trump's debate prep the "new york times" report mr. trump found it hard to focus during those meetings that left mr. ailes discussing his own problems as well as recounting political war stories. well, rudy giuliani didn't have more luck once he took over for ailes. "with mr. trump receiving so much conflicting advice in those sessions he absorbed it wille of it." trump's feud with former miss universe alicia machado entered its third day with trump doubling down on his assertions about alicia machado's weight. last night on fox, trump defended his behavior and suggested he is the victim because he says he saved machado's job. take a listen. >> she did to the do well. she had a lot of difficulties and they wanted to fire her. i had nothing to do with this person but they wanted to fire her. i saved her job because i said that would be ruins you.

i theed they where a number of young ladies. but the staff itself -- look what i get out of it. i get nothing. i saved her job because they wanted to fire her for putting on so much weight. and it is a beauty contest. say what you want, bill, they know what they're getting into. it's a beauty contest. i said don't try that, let her try to lose the weight then i end up in a position like this. that's the way it is. >> now nbc news has obtained an internal trump campaign memo that advises surrogates out there on how to respond to respond to questions about the beauty contest winner. joining me now is katy tur, robert costa is a "washington post" reporter, kathleen parker, opinion writer for the "washington post" as well. katy, give me a sense, you know everything about this fight. i'm trying to keep up with it. i'll start with my rule, when you're in a hole, stop digging. why does he keep talking about a beauty contestant 20 years ago? why does he wrap himself in this twilight zone existence he can't

win? there's no way he can win this argument. he looks like the bad guy in this incident. why doesn't he let it go? >> it ooit's the same thing he d with judge curiel when he was talking about how he wasn't fair. the same thing he did with the gold star families and the khans. he wants to defend himself, he can't let it go and when he does that he digs himself into a deeper hole. i'm not sure how women will react. those suburban women that he is trying to get when he says he was protecting this woman because she got too big and for that matter the president of the miss universe pageant told the "washington post" at the time in 1997 that the idea that she was going to be decrowned or lose her job was bogus, that wasn't happening so this was debunked 20 years ago. donald trump is continuing that

narrative and so is his campaign. kellyanne conway saying both last night and today on "the view." so i'm not sure why the campaign is going forward with it. they've released this internal -- not released but obtained an internal memo that says wherever surrogates are asked about machado they should pivot to hillary clinton saying she is trying to present herself as a feminist champion and that's a joke and encouraging those surrogates to say hillary clinton attacked monica lewinsky and attacked paula jones and gennifer flowers. they are enabling this story to live longer than it should. conservative talk radio is getting upset about this. including an iowa talk radio host saying donald trump doesn't have the ability to let go, that he keeps digging himself into a hole. as you said, chris, when you're digging a hole, stop digging. >> the question i have to ask is a very political one. it's not a moral one in this sense. baghdad bob, we laugh about him because he was the iraqi

official who kept say they're winning a war they're clearly losing. kim jong-un said they won the olympics in north korea. people, you lose all credibility when you say things are not true when they are. he lost the debate. he has a problem with this young contestant, she was 18, an immigrant from venezuela, he's going to be the bad guy and that's the way it's going to be and he thinks he can win the argument? >> let me give you a counter vision. donald trump has been doing this thing since this campaign started. he often talks about crowd sizes being much larger than they are. he did it again today saying that there were thousands of people inside this venue when the place only holds about 1200, maybe 1800 people and there were a little more than a thousand people here. he said there were 3,000 people waiting outside when there was not anyone waiting outside. he has been presenting things that aren't true as a fact now for quite a while. that's why he won the primaries.

ma what he has not realized, that's because the polls are tight, is that it will hurt him in the general election. we'll have to see how it plays out because this has been such a topsy-turvy campaign. the polls are so close and, chris, if there's one thing i learned on this campaign trail it's that donald trump pays attention to the polls more than he pays attention to anything else. more than he pays attention to his advisors or his kids. if he stays close in the polls, he's not going to see a reason to change. if he drops down, then we'll see more debate prep, then we might see him stray or get away from these negative topics. this thing is particularly bad because there is so much past comments from trump that are negative towards women. there are countless howard stern interviews where he talks about how it's hard to be a 10 if you're flat chested. this enables his detractors to dredge this back up and say

donald trump is not a champion of women. >> he was in another business it's clear. in a speech to the log cabin republicans last night, newt gingrich said "you're not supposed to gain 60 pounds during the year you peer miss universe." asked about trump's behavior toward women on fox last night, trump campaign manager kellyanne conway tried to refocus the debate on hillary clinton's negative ad campaign. here's kellyanne. >> i'm wondering why she's spending tens of millions of dollars in negative ads and never putting together an aspirational positive -- >> because she's killing him with women and she sees an advantage there and she's trying to exploit it. my question to you is whether he needs to come up with a better answer than telling "fox and friends" she gained a bunch of weight and she was a real problem. >> now we're conflating different things. what i would say to that is this. he should speak to america's women based on the issues about

which they care. >> well, we'll talk about that right now. here's kellyanne conway herself defending trump's treatment of machado, the beauty contest tonight on the view today. >> in the past he's called her an eat magazine. i feel uncomfortable with it as a woman but i'm curious about you felt? >> i don't discuss people's weights and their looks. i'm sure on your twitter feed right now you have viewers discussing my looks and intelligence. >> did you reprimand him and say listen, why are you calling women fat pigs? did you say that to him? >> yes, i think it's decide the point. >> what did he say? >> hold on, he gave that particular woman a second chance. she obviously has a troubled fast i won't get into. >> so what? that has nothing to do with her being fat or skinny. >> this is going into a terrain where it's clearly clear, kathleen, that trump can't win. and poor kellyanne who i've known forever, she has to flank this. that's how you break your pick when you go into a political

argument on behalf of a candidate with an unwinnable argument that undercuts you in all arguments because people say if you're willing to defend that we can't rely on what you're telling us. >> i feel sorry for her. but look the reason he is doing this and the reason he can't let go, he is developmentally a child. he can't admit ever being wrong. he'll never apologize for saying something rude or crowd. he's immature. >> can he pull back, robert and say it's a beauty contest, i don't set the rules, it's based on appearance, there's a prejudice towards thin, it's been going on for a while, i'm there doing a job. or should he just say, you know, i wasn't at my best that time, i should have been much more compassionate, much more empathetic and stop being such a

bad guy. how do you step back from these situations which are embarrassing in 2016 when your number-one target are women and young women in the suburbs and you're trying to win them over. >> my reporting tells me inside of trump's campaign at trump tower there's not a sense of stepping back. what they are is frustrated in their minds. >> why are we talking about this crap? >> they think trump left a weapon on the side. that he didn't go after the clintons, didn't pivot. i spoke to rudy giuliani a few minutes ago and he says there's so much donald trump can say about the clinton's past. >> what? what are they talking about? >> people like newt gingrich are saying to the trump campaign "hey, maybe this isn't the best way to go down." >> look, i'm not into morality on this program. we're talking about politics. three marriages newt, three marriages trump, three marriages -- who's the other guy? giuliani.

i don't hold them against them at all but politically -- >> they're taking the moral high road here, really? >> these are glass houses that's all i'm saying. why do they want to talk about this stuff. >> there's nothing else to talk about. there's no policy to talk about so let's talk about fat women. >> but the notion there's treasure trove -- this is what happened. the republicans impeached bill clinton. they spent a whole summer going after him. okay, okay. they may have had an argument morally, whatever, they had a case. but look what happened, the republicans lost the congress. hillary clinton got elected to the senate because she stood up to this and she showed guts and poise and everybody else looked like a crazy person. the evidence is hillary knows how to handle this topic. she'll look good. nobody will blame her for bill. what do you think they think? >> i've been speaking to them

for the last few hours and my sense is the way the machado question came at the end of the debate they all walked out at hofstra into the spin room frustrated that trump didn't come back in a certain way so ever since that night at hofstra they've been talking amongst each other saying when it comes to st. louis on october 9 he'll go right back. >> let's go back to katy tur. my general notion is that trump is making the same mistake tuesday, wednesday, thursday, that he made on monday night which is playing defense on personal history stuff he should have talked about jobs, immigration and go to your basics win the battle on your winning issues and stop playing on the enemy's territory. >> that's what he's trying to do. he tried to do that today in new hampshire. he tried to move on from that subject and they came out with a whole -- a cache of new catchy talking points saying that

hillary clinton is corrupt and follow the money and then talking about five people that got immunity. there's an issue that we aren't talking about when it comes to trump and women, it's not just his words, it's how his supporters behave and comport themselves at these rallies.

peres was the last of the surviving leaders that represented the zionist dream that brought israel into being in 1948. >> it is not an under statement to say this is the end of an era or generation of leaders of israel. >> it is not just the end of the generation, he really

represented the hold out to calling for israelis to reach inside themselves to help forge a commitment to peace. the struggle with palestinians, the terrorism has robbed israelis of their hope and expectations that we can meet and achieve peace for the palestinians. president peres was determined not to let the reality on the ground rob the dream of peace and he was constantly reminding israel, israelis not to give up hope. >> that also is significant when you look at his attendance and how he wrote, asking to be able toll attend. he sent a formal request to attend the friday services. he was given permission in the stand up public letter of condolence to the family calling shimon peres a graveman and

expressing his sorrow. he thought it was the right thoing do to be there. >> i thought was absolutely important. they forged deck yaades of relationship. the president of the palestinian authority, many palestinians have not had many positive words to say. they've accused mr. peres of being in effect the major inspiration for the settlement policy when he was foreign minister as well as defense minister. his reputation among palestinians has changed dramatically to the worse in the last five years, even though he indeed was the father of the aslo accords and bringing over the prime minister as his partner in the peace process is collapsed but led to the nobel peace prize and shared.

>> we'll develop into president peres's past. let's bring in nbc kelly. let's talk about the atmosphere across the country. israel is mourning but at the same time, obviously this is also a very massive security operation under taking with so many world leaders there transporting the casket to mount herzl. talk to us about the atmosphere across jerusalem and greater israel. >> well, this is really a country as you said in mourning and a country at a standstill for today at the very least. all of jerusalem is shut down. streets are shut down. the focus this morning is on mount hertz and former prime minister and president shimon peres. there is an incredible security operation available here. some 8,000 security officers

working on this to protect the population as well as all of these foreign dignitaries. we're talking about 90 delegations furthermore than 70 countries, dignitaries from europe, from asia, latin america, the united states with a 33 member delegation. president obama and former president clinton, secretary of state kerry, so an incredible security operation, first of all, but also, as was mentioned earlier, this is a country that is mourning a man who was considered sort of a grandfather to a lot of people here. yesterday, 50,000 people filing past his casket paying their respects. people saying that he was an inspiration, a great man, not everyone, by the way, agreeing with all of his policies, but saying in the end, he did want

peace and that was his driving mission in their view and that is why they were there and you saw so many there paying their respects. yes, a massive security operation under way here in jerusalem this morning. as a matter of fact, we understand that preventive arrests were made yesterday. no more specifics other than that and there is no specific threat or security threat against this funeral but as you can imagine, once again, when you have this number of world leaders and dignitaries all in one place and a place that has experienced violence and detention over the years, it will be a security concern. >> when we talk about the significance of this location, mount herzl, previous states men have been buried there as well. what is this similar tomorrow? >> the arlington cemetery of

israel. when you go to mount herzl, it is the site not too far from the holocaust memorial of israel as well. most of israel's major leaders and politicians as generals are buried on mount herzl. we're looking at the audience and seeing the dignitaries. prince charles there, you see as we're taking a live look at this under way, we're talking about who is there but also it is important to note who is not there especially when it comes to representatives of the middle east, i understand only one representative from jordan will be in attendance. >> indeed. in fact, unlike when prime minister rabine was assassinated and the king of jordan attended, the deputy of the economic affairs is the highest ranking authority who has a peace treaty with israel.

it shows in some respects the extraordinary challenges that israel is facing in the turbulent middle east with the allies even and at the same time, i think it is also fitting to remind everybody that despite the perhaps insignificant level of our participation at this funeral, mr. peres was blovelov and respected with those and the liaison between israel and many of the arab states. >> it is interesting you said respected and loved but there are also signs in reading, it was interesting to see by some descriptions, able to was the "new york times" article that he was known for his vanity, book door dealings, criticized at some point but in his later years, many turned to love and respect him. >> i want to tell you, i have

studied and known peres for many years to live in israel and understand israeli politics is to understand he had a reputation as a schemer, political hack. i don't want to speak ill of the dead but many israelis revialed his politics, disrespected his commitment to peace. he was constantly challenging the leadership above him in order to remove them so he could become the prime minister and yet in some respects and the irony of it all, for a man who served israel for seven decades, he was never, ever directly elected by the israelis. he never won out right. >> when you look at his remarkable career in israeli politics he was the president, for all intents and purposes, not the prime minister.

>> he was a larger than life figure when he became president that in some respects it was less the ceremonial duties that matters to the office of the presidency. he became an informal advisory to president netanyahu. he was a former advisory to president obama. he in effect transformed the office of the presidency into a soap box, to an effect, speak to the israeli public, speak to the world at large unlike previous presidents of israel. it was remarkable testament, the more that he used the office of the presidency, the more he began reearning the trust, respect, and love of the people. >> that was happening at the same time the israeli body politics was slifting to the right and there was a difference with what they want and what the current government and their policies and what they stood for. how was that reconciled in the public at large. >> i was listening to an

interview by neftali bennett who is the leader of one of the most right winged parties in israel and israel and liebermann, the defense minister, paris was able to earn and be the inspiration for many of the political leaders even though they disagreed with him. bennett, who was one of the most, who is opposed to peace. does not agree with the two state solution, admitted that he entered into politics largely because of of the inspiration and the belief that mr. peres represented the zionist conscious that he achieved, desired to achieve. >> it is interesting you're talking about his position as president being largely symbolic and we understand that benjamin netanyahu will be speaking next. talk about the complications. the two of them overlapping when you have one as president and one as prime minister and how

the complex positions of those two together. >> let me point out that you're watching and i'm listening in hebrew, that is the president of israel speaking, president ruben. ironically the two of them became odd couple. in some respects it was mr. peres who convinced him who was being pushed also by president obama to finally acknowledge his commitment to a palestinian state. most people will say that's words that hasn't translated into anything. it's akin to the hand shake that mr. rabine extended to him in 1993 on the white house lawn. when he in effect went before them and made that statement, mr. peres felt vindicated that his