and believing a single life can be made better by millions of others. as a health services and innovation company optum powers modern healthcare by connecting every part of it. so while the world keeps searching for healthier we're here to make healthier happen. >> maybe he doesn't want the american people, all of you watching tonight, the know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes. because the only years that anybody's ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. so -- >> that makes me smart. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." donald trump continues to withhold his tax returns. he says it's because he's being audited and has been every year since at least 2002.

but he has yet to produce any proof that such an audit is taking place. well, the "new york times" got ahold of trump's 1995 tax returns. the revelation? donald trump quite possibly could have avoided paying a dime of federal income taxes for 18 years. trump claimed a $916 million loss in 1995 after poorly managing his businesses in the early '90s because he declared that hefty loss, the "times" found the republican nominee could have taken advantage of portions of the country's income tax code that are particularly helpful to wealthy filers. specifically, rules that would have allowed him to use that $916 million loss to cancel out an equal amount of taxable income over an 18-year period. the trump campaign responded in a statement that neither confirmed nor denied the notion that he did not pay federal income taxes for 18 years.

"mr. trump is a highly skilled businessman who has a fiduciary responsibility to his businesses, family and employees to pay no more tax than legally required." the unsigned statement went on to say "mr. trump knows the tax code far better than anyone who has ever run for president and he is the only one that knows how to fix it." the campaign also said that trump has paid "hundreds of millions of dollars in federal, state and local taxes over the years." but we don't know that for sure because trump has refused to release his tax returns, unlike every presidential candidate since 1980. the "new york times" could not determine that trump definitively did not pay taxes for 18 years because it only obtained his 1995 returns. it's only october 2. 36 days before election day and donald trump still has not released his tax returns. nor has he proved there is an audit preventing him from doing so. here with me is joan walsh from "the nation."

michelle bernard, president of the bernard center for women, "washington post" columnist e.j. dionne and david k. johnston, author of "the maker of donald trump." david k. johnson, i'm going to go right to you on that. smart or not smumart? >> well, we'll figure out what people say about someone worth $10 billion not paying. it's more likely to be the last 40 years because four years before this trump had what are called net operating losses and all of his losses are deductible because of the way he organized his finances. if you and i had losses in the stock market, we were limited to $3,000 a year against our salaries or business profits or other income. but trump did this, i'm sure, under something called section 1231 which is an area full of abuse and cheating that i've exposed for going back, i don't know, 17 or 18 years that the government does nothing about. it also raises a real interesting question.

how do you lose $915 million in a rising real estate market if you're the great real estate genius? >> and michelle bernard, you look at the losses donald trump is reporting in the $916 million loss. you're talking about $25.5 million from the trump taj mahal. $43 million from the trump castle casino. $34 million from the trump shuttle, that airline. that e-z a these are the businesses that made his persona, casinos, airlines. what does it mean? you represent a lot of businesswom businesswomen, a lot of businesswomen you work with. is this normal business to lose this much money but still be really, really rich? >> well, it is not normal business and it's particularly not normal business if you are someone who claims to be the greatest businessman ever. and i would say that a lot of women-owned businesses have to be looking at this and asking the question, is this how donald trump would run the country with the united states -- would the

united states declare billions of dollars in losses every year under a trump presidency. even more important, joy, when you look at this, one of the things i have that to think about for people who are what i call "the others." people who are women. people who are african-american. ethnic and religious minorities. people for whom white male voters are looking at as people who are taking something away from them. you have to begin to question and look at is it people of color? is it people who are women? is it government policies, for example, affirmative action policies that are under mining or hurting the american public or are they tax laws that favor people like donald trump and allow someone who is incredibly wealthy by any metric to be able to not pay taxes for anywhere from 20 to 50 years? is that what's really hurting you and is that the type of thing people should be looking at when they say we need to make america great again. you know, i would argue that it is people who are not white

males, are not the enemy, it's the tax code that allows a donald trump to not pay taxes over a 50-year period, possibly that is the enemy. >> it certainly puts a new tack on makers versus takers, doesn't it? >> yes. >> let's play steve cortez who is a trump surrogate who we are happy to have on this program from time to time. this is steve talking with alex witt earlier today about this very story. take a listen. >> don't hate the player, hate the game. and the game is rigged and it's crony capitalism out of washington, d.c. and the tax code, i would argue, is exhibit a in that rotten system and mr. trump wants to smash the current tax code. >> you know, joan, i refer to it often. you wrote a terrific book called "what's the matter with white people" where you talk about the anger of working class white americans who benefited from the new deal, benefited from these government programs but who have this sense that brown and black people are takers, they're taking my money, they're taking

many i tax money and they're lay zbli taking my job. >> why is it that somebody like steve cortez could turn around and say "hey, it's great that a rich guy is a taker." >> because the rich guys have kept the tax code just like this. other people have wanted to change the tax code. the work of the great david cay johnson has shown us the way the tax code is a, a, rigged for people by donald trump and, b, rigged for people like donald trump. so the notion that he's the one that can fix this is preposterous. they have not said this isn't true. >> right. >> they might turn to that. tomorrow morning we might be hearing that but the great thing, donald trump is a very lucky man because all he has to do is make this story go away is show us his tax returns to prove he did pay taxes over the last 18, 20, 40 years. so if he's in trouble, he can do that ch that. >> he's rich. he's a businessman.

therefore almost anything he does is okay. where does that come from? particularly from broke people, quite frankly. >> i wondered if the trump people wouldn't be great for for this news story because so many people were focused on the danger of having a president who wakes up at 3:00 in the morning and starts tweeting. and it's been a pattern in this campaign that trump scandals come at you so fast and furious that none of the individual scandals ever is given time to take hold for people to think about before you move on to the next one. i think the second thing is a decay, a rise in cynicism and a decay in the idea that, wait a minute, if you want to lead the country, shouldn't you want to pay something in taxes to support the government? and i think that we've become so cynical about government there is an attitude that the government doesn't work that the trump people can run this

argument well, he's just being smart. but here's where i think this story could really bite. trump's slogan -- and it goes to something michelle said. trump's slogan is "make america great again." his life has been make trump great again and again and again regardless of what happeneds to other people. and that "new york times" story made clear that all around him the people who invested in him, his employees, all kinds of people in the community just lost everything. the stock plummeted and yet donald trump was able to walk away with a bundle of money subsidized by taxpayers. i think it's that narrative that people may eventually pay attention to and say if he did that with his own holdings, what in the world is he going to do with our country. >> and you know, jonathan, i am amazed when i hear -- we do a lot of man on the streets where we talk to people who are trump supporters who are the little guy. they are the proverbial little guy who don't seem to care that donald trump cheated people, that he didn't pay contractors,

that he -- those polish workers that built trump tower, that tore down the teller building didn't get paid, exposed wires they had to deal with. they don't seem to care that he's treated the little guy that's just like them so poorly but now you have the fact that he's saying the federal government doesn't work. well, he's been withholding tax revenue from the federal government maybe for 40 years. why does that not resonate with trump supporters? >> because they just don't care that particular subset of the trump supporter, they are so angry at the establishment, at the federal government that they simply do not care. the guest you had on yesterday was another prime example from another perspective when it comes to donald trumps misogyny and the attacks on miss universe. she couldn't care less about what donald trump was saying about another woman because she was very angry about her own

personal financial situation. so i think in this case if you were to ask those people on the street about these financial issues and whether they care they'll most likely to say no. but if you were to ask them whether they care about hillary clinton home-brewed e-mail server they'll be ballistic. they'll think she's corrupt and shouldn't be anywhere near the white house and i think if you're going to apply that standard to her, you're going to have to apply that standard to him. while what he did is legal, it certainly, i think, to a lot of people's mind sort of morally repugnant because we at least at one time held our presidential candidates to a higher standard. if you're going to govern this country, if you're going hold the lives now of 330 million people in your hands, the american people need to be reasonably assured that you have their safety as the highest

priority is but also you are not going to cheat the government that you are in charge of and the story in the "new york times" begs -- really makes -- should make people question whether somebody who hadn't paid taxes, as david said, possibly 40 or 50 years, should that person be in charge of the federal government? >> i'm going to come back to you because i want yo tow talk to -- jonathan brought up the lovely woman we had on yesterday who was with latinas for trump who was trying to argue for supporting somebody who had been so blatantly misogynistic, particularly toward a fellow latina and where she kept coming back to, david, was that she wants a tax cut and she's putting blinders on, ignoring everything else he says and does because she and her family will get a tax cut. now, we don't know what her income bracket is but can you speak to, david,s in a guy who doesn't pay taxes. it's the mitt romney standard. what would his tax plan actually

do for the average person? >> very little. donald's tax plan is very heavily weighted toward very wealthy people like himself and he is, by any standard, a wealthy person. like the bush tax cuts where 12.5% of the money went to one in a thousand households, trump would double down on that kind of thing. i want to emphasize one point. we don't know that this is an honest tax return. we know it's his return because of the signatures that are on it, including his long-time tax guy. but we know donald has a history of reporting two different sets of numbers. and to have this $916 million loss, i'd like to compare that to what he said in s.e.c. filings, in new jersey casino control commission reports and other documents because donald has a long history of using one set of numbers here and another here to benefit himself and we know from his 1984 tax return and two trials that were held that there are badges of fraud on his '84 tax return. so i wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

one last thing. he did pay some tax. in the state of new jersey on his income, his total income, positive income for the year was $11 million, he did pay in the state of new jersey about $96,000 of tax. >> and i am really sort of fascinated by this notion that people can hold at the same time these two sets of ideas. that donald trump is this incredibly wildly successful businessman. but that he keeps losing money. that he doesn't seem to be able to make the sort of core businesses work. and i am fascinated by the fact that people can hold those two ideas at the same time. >> he's either incredibly incompetent and has lost all this money or he's lying, cheating, and stealing in order to show losses and make other people hold the bag. whether it's the taxpayer or whether it's bankers or whether it's the small businessmen and women we know he stiffed. and so i share your fascination but i just want to say one thing about the woman you talked to and all of these trump supporters. >> ileana garcia was her name. >> ileana garcia and others. they love trump because he is

their liar and cheater and steelsteel -- stealer and he'll do it on behalf of them. they believe the system is broken, they don't care how he's accomplished to date as long as he'll do it on their behalf and that's tragic but that's the way it is. >> absolutely. we are out of time but joan, jonathan, michelle and e.j. will be back later in the show. thank you so much david cay johnson. up next, who is mike pence? we're about to find out on the national stage on tuesday. we'll give you a preview after the break. lp you take on a new , or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com.

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>> i frankly hold dick cheney in high regard. >> that's the kind of vice president you want to be? >> well, i think a very active vice president. >> donald trump's running mate,

indiana governor mike pence, wants to emulate the most powerful -- some might say the most frightening -- vice president of all time. and this is why you should be watching the one and only vice presidential debate this tuesday. because who mike pence is might very well determine what kind of president donald trump would be. joining me now, comedian and sirius xm host john fugelsang whose sexy liberal commentary kept me up extremely late. lizz winstead co-creator of "lady parts justice." and john and michelle are back with us. lizz, you sort of have a mike pence story. >> my complete activism and the reason i started lady parts justice was because i was sitting in my pajamas watching mike pence when that whole tea party congress took over and the first thing they did after we had a financial crisis, we were on the brink of ruin, the first thing he did in hr-1 was to defund planned parenthood and i was like what's happening, that's insane?

it didn't happen but it was from that moment on when he was in congress that we saw 27 pieces of legislation known as trap laws go into all these different state legislatures and this is when this assault started happening. then he got to be governor and it became crazy. he proposed women should have two transvaginal ultrasounds. >> what are trap laws? >> targeting regulation of abortion providers. they are designed to close down clinics not help women get health care. >> and pence is author of the pence amendment, people forget he was in congress from 2011, u.s. house votes down pence amendment intended to defund planned parenthood. then conversion therapy. this is a politifact headline that it is true mike pence advocated for conversion therapy for people who were gay saying he could put them off to a camp and change their orientation. he is extremely socially conservative. >> extremely thus and he bases it on a christianity that bears

no resemblance to the actual teaching of jesus in the gospels. look no further than the religious freedom laws he signed in indiana, making discrimination legal. 50 years after the civil rights movement saying no, no, you can tell some people they can't be served at your lunch counter. the religious freedom law in his case meant the freedom to believe christ hates the same people as you. you know homophobia is incompatible with the teachings of the new testament so i wouldn't mind him being christian if he were actually christian in his policies. keep in mind also this is a man who said cigarettes do not cause cancer. and these issues have not been raised yet because his nominee sucks all the air out of the room. >> and if i could add one more thing to do. while mike pence was doing that, he failed in congress to defund planned parenthood but he defunded the planned parenthood in indiana and while that riffer thing was happening, a little known thing that did happen was there was a county in inn-than-suffered 87 cases of an hiv outbreak and the reason that it did was because those planned parenthoods closed and there was

no nobody to diagnose or treat them and they had to open up pop-up clinics to treat them. >> jonathan, i want to come to you on this. one of the reasons it matters -- normally the vice president doesn't make difference but mike pence was put on the ticket to calm jittery republicans who were thinking donald trump was too -- a bridge too far for them. and you have donald trump, jr., having been leaked that he in trying to recruit john kasich, the governor of ohio to take this job, said to him "you'll be the most powerful vice president, you're going to run the country, donald trump will be touring around the country making america great again." so this is a guy who would have power. >> right. right. he, i think, could possibly be dick cheney on steroids. if you can possibly imagine that. i mean, governor pence is super conservative and lizz and john did a great job of sort of explaining just how far this conservatism goes. when mike pence was chosen, it was seen at the time by

political folks as a base pick. someone i think you just mentioned, someone who would calm the republican party base and make it clear to everyone that there is someone conservative who would have his hand on the controls. but i think what -- i think as john just said, because donald trump is dominating everything about the ticket that no one has been able to focus on the fact that if, indeed, trump becomes president that the vice president is going to be extremely powerful and this extremely powerful person is extremely conservative and i think a lot of people -- a lot of those people who trump would have to -- who trump would need in order to become president will scare them off. >> yeah, and michelle, really quickly, just looking at his ratings across the board, he's gotten a a-rating for the national rifle association, 100% from national right to life, american civil liberties union, 0%. naacp 5%. i don't know what he did to get 35%. human rights campaign zero

percent. so if you are gay, if you are african-american you have to think this guy might not be your guy. >> you have to be looking and saying he is definitely not my cup of tea. it's extraordinary, joy, because in any other election one would like to think that mike pence's political philosophies would immediately disqualify him from ever being vice president or president of the united states. so what does it say to the others as i refer to people like you and me, to people who are women, people who are of color, people who are ethnic and religious minorities that the man who is allegedly there to calm donald trump down and calm the waters, you know, believes that it is appropriate for people to use religion as a basis to discriminate against, you know, gays -- the gay and lesbian community or the african-american community or to a man who literally wanted to pass legislation to stop syrian refugees from being resettled in indiana. >> christian.

>> to closing down planned parenthood. he is someone who does not believe in civil liberties for anyone unless they appear to be a white male. it's a very scary notion. >> and i have been fascinated by this notion that white evangelical christians -- we shouldn't lump all evangelicals together, there are black evangelicals who are not down with this. >> and nice white evangelicals, too. >> and there are liberal evangelical christians. but this notion of being able to say that, you know, you are for -- you are evangelical christian, you're a bible-believing christian but that somebody who is not only thrice married but also quite vulgar, right? and then you also have mike pence with him whose ideas can envelope torture and right to life. >> and also they both of christianity while telling fleeing middle eastern immigrants there's no room at the indiana. it's a very good point to remember that half of mike pence's top donors have bailed on him for reelection. his job is in trouble. he's the highest-ranking republican who would say yes to donald trump. condoleezza rice wouldn't take his call and as you so astutely

pointed out, the biggest story to me is they made the offer to john kasich and more or less said "you'll be the chief executive, trump is planning on being a ceremonial ruler." so when you vote for trump you're voting for this guy to be the white house. >> he'd essentially be prime minister. that's what they're talking about. >> you know, i think maybe we need trump conversion therapy. [ laughter ] i don't know. i think if we could get the religious communities together i think that maybe this might not be a horrible idea. >> i picture -- and you're not supposed to preach from the pulpit but we know if you here in a church that's politically active there's a strong message that was sent during the bush era, you better be with bush if you're a christian. i wonder how when you -- just this past week listening to the things donald trump just said about women and then you look at mike pence and this deep intolerance, deep vein of intolerance that runs through mike pence, how does that sermon go down? >> well, we're warned throughout the new testament about false prophets and the problem we have

in this country -- i have no problem with a government based on christian values. i'd love to see that. if it's actually values of christ laid out in matthew 25. you want to follow me? take care of the poor, take care of the sick, be kind of those in prison. the problem with american christianity today and the reason why it's becoming an atheist factory because it's about worshipping jesus as a god and ignoring his inconveniently liberal teachings of social justice. mike pence is exhibit a. >> turning over those money changers. he wasn't saying, you know, the pharisees are the good guys. >> he's a false prophet who claims false prophets on his taxes. >> the one time christ got angry is because people were exploring the poor. >> book of matthew christians are rejoinsing all over america and we're keeping them out of church. coming up, live from new york, it's the "saturday night live" political parody season. we'll show you the highlights next. .. do you think i'm gonna crack under pressure or conquer the field? defy expectations any day with always infinity. made with flexfoam. absorbs 10x its weight.

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anticipated season yet since the show's last season the presidential election has become even more like something right out of an "snl" sketch and monday's debate provided by plenty of material for "snl's" new donald trump impersonator alec baldwin and the emmy-winning kate mckinnon. >> my microphone is broken. [ laughter ] she broke it with obama. she and obama stole my microphone. they took it to kenya. they took my microphone to kenya and they broke it and now it's broken. [ sniffs ] i'm picking up something sniffing here. it's her sniffs. she's been sniffing all night. testing. testing. china. china. huge. china. >> secretary clinton, what do you think about that? >> i think i'm going to be president. [ cheers and applause ] >> well, this has been an illuminating debate. but now it's time for our --

>> alicia machado. . who is alicia machado? >> thank you for bringing that up, lester. she is is a strong beautiful political prop i almost forgot to mention tonight even though we already made a web video about her. alicia machado was miss universe in 1996. >> where did you find this? >> and donald trump called her miss piggy. >> how do you know? >> and miss housekeeping. >> that's pretty funny. [ laughter ] >> when we come back -- [ laughter ] >> -- that never gets old. i'll be joined by my own panel of funny people.

♪ using 60,000 points from my chase ink card i bought all the framework... wire... and plants needed to give my shop... a face... no one will forget. see what the power of points can do for your business. learn more at chase.com/ink . >> this man is clearly unfit to be commander-in-chief. >> wrong. >> he is a bully. >> shut up. >> he started the birther movement. >> you did. >> he says climate change is a hoax invented by china.

>> it's pronounced jina. >> he hasn't released his tax returns, which means he's either not that rich. >> wrong. >> not that charitable. >> wrong. >> or he's never paid taxes in his life. >> warmer. [ laughter ] >> epic. so funny. john and lizz are back with us and joining the table emmy winning comedian judy gold and dean oeg dahl la. dean, we're going to let you go first you ain't here but we miss you. is it politically potent to go in on people like that? >> why is the muslim guy back in the hallway? how dare you hold me down? extreme vetting. >> we're starting the trump administration early. get used to it. this is your next four years. >> here's the thing. i think that political

comedians, first you have to be funny, period. that's the bottom line. second it's a great time to get out there, i think you have a moral obligation, i'm going to be blunt, to call out trump, to use comedy. i call it a comedy jihad. i'm begging my fellow comedians. use your skill set to remind americans what donald trump is about. when he announced his candidacy, 59% of republicans said they would never vote for him because they viewed him as a punch line. then due to spewing sexism, bigotry and racism they took him seriously. join my comedy jihad, do it on twitter but let's turn him more and more into a punch line. o they hit hillary, too, for being overprepared and calculated. that's fine. they brought up his sexism. >> let's play one more clip because they did hit, to dean's point, on the issue of race, the other "ism."

let's look at "saturday night live." the one and only alec baldwin as trump one more time. >> all the blacks live on one street in chicago. all on one street. [ laughter ] it's called hell street. and they're on hell street and they're all just killing each other just like i am killing this debate. >> secretary clinton, did you have a response? [ laughter ] >> not of a response-more of a request. can america vote right now? >> i barely made it off of hell street just to be here, being the black person here. >> you look great, too. >> i fought my wide through and i made it. >> and your commute is long. >> hell street is a long way from 30 rock. you just saw the two of those portrayals, one of donald trump, one of hillary clinton. those can do one of two things. they can humanize the person you're ridiculing or make them

into a joke that's unacceptable. which happened for both hillary clinton and donald trump? >> i think they did such an incredible job because in my mind trump is dangerous and there's not a lot of humor in someone who is a dangerous human being who will hurt our country. who will hurt our allies and our relationships with our allies. they picked these fine points, they were so specific when alec did donald. i couldn't believe it. because i have a hard time being funny about trump. i just beg people in my audience, please promise me you will not vote for him. please, he's dangerous, he's dangerous. and after, it's something that's so horrible. it's not funny anymore. he's not funny. he is not funny. >> to that point, alec baldwin was interviewed by the "washington post" about this and he said "i can't believe how far he's come and he fumbles the ball again. he picks it up, he fumbles again

and he keeps getting closer. i watched the debates and i thought oh, my god, for a lot of my friends, a lot of this isn't funny anymore. when he was a sideshow it was funny, now he's the nominee and it isn't funny, it's agonizing." >> if he was a football team, fans would not go anymore, the owners would sell the team. but the fact that he gets excused is crazy. the bigger thing for me is as this gigantic circus is happening in politics with trump, the stuff that's happening on the state level is really, really profound. when you talk about voting, lgbtq rights, there's stuff happening in those elections that people need to know and comedy really exposes that. >> billy wilder said if you're going to tell people the truth, make it funny or they're kill you. george carlin's political humor is the reason i got into the game. i think that "snl" did a great job of being fair in their critiques of secretary clinton in that sketch, which is very important. but at the end of the day. donald trump only needs to get about 48% of the people who show up to vote to vote for him.

if you factor in johnson and stein. so 48% of the people who show up have to vote for donald trump. so comedy and ridicule has always been one of the most valuable social tools we have. it might not reach all the voters but it will reach their kids because at this point the goal of that sketch seems to me to show donald trump supporters that they're being suckers. >> dean, donald trump, a, seems to to be very sensitive to ridicule. that seems to be part of his psychological makeup. but there has become this culture. even people who support donald trump admit supporting trump is kind of -- not kind of, it's become uncool. socially unacceptable to a lot of people. so did ridicule make those voters double down and say we're fighting all of the liberal west coast/left coast popular culture or does it, at least with younger voters, make them push away? >> i think for trump supporters he could say anything and they would never leave. he could say hillary clinton shot tupac and they'd be like "yeah, that sounds reasonable to me." [ laughter ] he could literally say anything and people keep saying this is

not going to move trump supporters. forget trump supporters. they are locked in with him. it's the small percentage of independent voters, gary johnson and jill stein voters hillary has to go after. hillary went on zach galifianakis "between two ferns" last week, made funny points, it was a record in viewership. the idea that you can reach young people and people who don't follow the news through comedy is so true. >> by the way, dean, trump supporters don't know who tupac is. [ laughter ] when barack obama went on "between two ferns" it was the hardest any democrat fought for the 2014 midterms because his appearance was calculated to drive up young people registering with the exchanges for health care. that was an example of using comedy to advance an agenda and obama is probably our funniest president, even more so than reagan and kennedy. clinton's appearance last week humanized her. >> "between two ferns" has refused to put trump on. >> good. you have to be self-afacing. you have to take constructive

criticism. this guy cannot take a joke about himself. moi 15-year-old is more mature than he is. i read an article, 7% of friendships and relationships have broken up because one is a trump supporter. >> and as comedians we should be supporting trump by all rights, right? we should be because if trump is president -- >> but it's too dangerous. >> if he's president, i'm buying a boat. i've got a four-year-old, joy. i need that. >> i also think humor is incredible in breaking down things that are complicated. >> and subversive. >> absolutely. tonight my organization, lady parts justice, has a two hour live stream an awards show called the golden probes that you can stream at golden probes.com and it's honoring excellence in sexism and anti-abortion extremism. we're highlighting 28 state legislators who have done horrible things to women and it's going to be a wakeup call. it's not just the state you live in, it's every place. >> and if you don't think comedy can fix in place the images that

americans have of a political figure. just remember, "snl" did it in gerald ford and sarah palin, i can see russia from my house. people believe she actually said that it was so real. >> and trump's appearance on "snl" landed flat. >> because he's not funny. there's nothing funny about it. >> no awareness. trump is what happens when parents never say no. >> trump is the only native new yorker who's never been to therapy. >> and he killed tupac? that actually has ruined my day. [ laughter ] thank you john fugelsang, lizz winstead, judy gold and dean obeidallah. and don't miss "dream on" which premiers on pbs october 7. coming up in our next hour. tim kaine versus mike pence and more with "shark tank's" mark cuban. first, the presidential candidate who could swing utah for hillary clinton. we're going to play one more soundbite from "snl" last night. this is the parody of the trump kids which was hysterical on their version of family feud.

take a look. >> what an interesting and wonderful question, steve. may i ask my brothers for help? >> they not here. [ laughter ] >> yes, we are. who is this. >> i'm donald, jr., the brains. >> i'm ivanka, the beauty. >> and i'm eric. [ laughter ] >> okay. show me children of the corn. [ buzzer sounding ] smoking's a monkey on my back. it was, it was always controlling your time, your actions, your money. it had me. it had me. i would not be a non-smoker today if it wasn't for chantix. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. chantix reduced my urge to smoke some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking

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the reality is, the closer this race gets between clinton and trump the easier of a time we have in blocking both of them from obtaining a majority in the

electoral college. if the race is extremely close, then it could be decided by even just one state and so the voters in that state will hold the key to either giving the election to one of them or blocking them both and electing me from that state is so that we go to the house of representatives. >> most polls show you either a head-to-head matchup between the two major party candidates or a four-way comparison that includes the green party's jill stein and libertarian gary johnson. what about independent candidate evan mcmullin. mcmullin is polling ahead of jill stein in one recent poll with 2% of the vote compared to her 1%. he's from utah, he's a mormon. voters in 34 states can cast ballots for him and we're wondering if his presence might help put clinton put deep red utah in play this year. joining me from salt lake city, utah, is presidential candidate evan mcmullin. i've been looking forward to talking to you.

let's start with the soundbite we started about where your scenario throws the race into the electoral college because neither hillary clinton nor donald trump gets the stuff plurality of votes to get to 270. what makes you think that the house of representatives, which would make this decision, would not just give the election to the person that i've all pledged their fealty to and that is donald trump? >> joy, let me say this is great to be with you. i've been looking forward to this as well. it would be a race, if the election made its way to the house of representatives, the house of representatives would need to make a choice by march 4, according to the constitution of the following year and i believe it would reset the race and so at that point it would be a three-way competition between hillary clinton, donald trump, and me. i think in those conditions i would have a very good shot of prevailing. why? because i align with house republicans on most issues,

donald trump does not. yes, he's the republican nominee but he's been an absolute disaster for the republican party. i'm the only true conservative candidate in this race and that's the reality. i'm also a much more tolerable pick for democrats than is donald trump. so i believe that i actually might be able to be the consensus candidate as a conservative coming out of the house. >> and i'm not going belabor the point but all of those points you make are points that rick wilson who's working with you on the campaign, our mutual friend sara has made this point. leo wolf, on and on and on, stoll wart long-time conservatives, never-trumpers make that case and yet republicans, elected republicans to a person, you're talking about people like marco rubio who called donald trump everything but a child of god during the primary, all lining up in lockstep. john mccain who he personally insulted his service, they are all essentially party men. they are not walking away from a

candidate even they admit probably in their own inner souls is not a conservative, is not one of them. so if they are that in lockstep with him now, if they are that much marching behind him no matter what, why would they suddenly change their minds? >> you point out correctly, joy, that that would be the challenge, there's no doubt about that. and i've been severely disappointed by republicaning elected leaders' brought support for donald trump despite his bigoted and divisive and misogynistic rhetoric. this is not something that republicans should support and it's not something conservatives do support. so, yes, i've been very disappointed by that. i think it causes concern i think for many people who have voted republican in the past about the future of the republican party as a vehicle for the conservative movement, that's perhaps something we can talk about but, yes, that would be the challenge and i've been very disappointed by republican

members in congress failure to stand up to donald trump and his relationship to vladimir putin and his divisive rhetoric and his lack of policy acumen and knowledge. i could go on and on. >> i want to do a quick lightning round with you because i want people to get to know you, our viewers to find out what your positions are on some issues and cultural touchstones. let's go through a few of them. do you believe that barack obama -- and this is crazy that i have to ask this question but this has become an issue -- was barack obama born in the united states? >> yes. and it is crazy that you have to ask that question and the whole birther movement and controversy promoted by donald trump was flatly racist. yes i believe he was born in the united states. that's what his birth certificate says. >> do you believe climate change is man made? >> i believe that we contribute to it, yes, and that we have a stewardship, a responsibility and stewardship for the earth and we need to do a better job. >> you have a fascinating history. you worked with the cia but you worked on ref see why resettlement. you've done incredible service to your country.

what would you do to our country -- what would you do about syrian refugees as president? >> first of all we need to address the core problem causing this massive refugee crisis, the largest since world war ii. it's less about resettlement and more about solving the core issue which is bashar al assad's continued attack against syrian civilians. he's set up an industrial scale kill magazine of syrians and that's why they're threeing as well as isis, we need to deal with that as well. those are the core sources of these refugee flows. yes, i believe we need to resettle refugees, some of them here to the united states but we'll never solve the problem by resettling refugees here or to europe or elsewhere. we're talking about over five million syrian refugees alone flowing out of syria in the past five plus years and within syria it's another seven million or something. half of the population of syria has been displaced so we have to deal with the core problems, that's where my focus would be but i would continue to resettle

vetted syrian refugees to the united states. >> evan mcmullin, i wish we had more time. if you would, please come back, i'd like to do another round on domestic issues because i think people should get to know you. you are a fascinating guy and people should read about your bio and good luck to you, i wish you luck. >> thank you so much, joy, we'll be back. >> up next, vp showdown, tim kaine takes on mike pence. our preview after the break. li. but that doesn't stop my afib from leaving me at a higher risk of stroke. that'd be devastating. i took warfarin for over 15 years until i learned more about once-daily xarelto... a latest generation blood thinner. then i made the switch. xarelto® significantly lowers the risk of stroke in people with afib not caused by a heart valve problem. it has similar effectiveness to warfarin. warfarin interferes with vitamin k and at least six blood clotting factors. xarelto® is selective targeting one critical factor

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ticket with her. anybody who puts families and kids at the center of their life from the time they're a teenager till today has got my heart. >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." after this week's clash of the titans between hillary clinton and donald trump, tim kaine and mike pence have a tough act to follow when they square off in their one and only vice presidential debate tuesday night. let's face it, there's little chance these guys will attract enough of an audience to rival the 84 million viewers who made the clinton/trump matchup the most-watched debate in television history. senator kaine and governor pence were safe choices that if they didn't bring extra excitement to the ticket would not do much to damage it, either. and they have largely succeeded on both counts. after july, following an initial spike when their names were added to the ticket both kaine and pence have bottomed out at zero in google search popularity tracker. which isn't to say their debate won't be worth watching. after all, each of them will be one heart beat away from either the first or second oldest

president we've ever had. and vp showdowns have brought us the most memorable moments in political debate history. take a look. >> let me help you with the difference, ms. ferraro, between iran and the embassy in lebanon. iran we were held by a foreign government. in lebanon, you had a wanton terrorist action where the government opposed it. >> let me just say, first of all, that i almost resent vice president bush your patronizing attitude that you have to teach me about foreign policy. >> i'd like to start by offering you a deal, jack. if you won't use any football stories, i won't tell any of my warm and humorous stories about t chlorofluorocarbon abatement. [ laughter ] >> it's a deal. i can't even pronounce it. [ laughter ] >> when we look weak, our adversaries are much more willing to test us, they're more brazen in their attacks and our

allies a less willing to trust us. >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> nice to meet you. can i call you joe? >> i have as much experience in the congress as jack kennedy did when he sought the presidency. >> i served with jack kennedy. i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you here in jack kennedy. >> that was really uncalled for, senator. [ applause ] >> you're the one that was making the comparison, senator. >> whom w am i? why am i here? >> lloyd bentsen. joining me now is karen phinnfp, senior advisor for hillary clinton 2016. before we get to the kaine of it all, i have to play you this soundbite. rudy giuliani was on "meet the press."

he was answering a question mike pence is sure to get in the vice presidential debate which is to defend the notion that donald trump may not have paid federal income taxes for 18 years here's how rudy giuliani answered the question. take a listen. >> he failed at his businesses, those first three businesses were failures then he was able to get a tax break for that failure on the next billion dollars of income. look, it's all legal. should it be? >> that's a good question but it is and it was and we're talking about 21 years ago and if he didn't take advantage of it he would have been sued and that's why maybe somebody doesn't want to put out their tax returns because somebody will distort it that way. i mean, the reality is he's a seens you. he took advantage of something that could save his enterprise and he did something we admire in america. he came back. >> so, karen, if those are the talking points being issued to trump surrogates and mike pence gives that same answer that trump is a genius for not paying

taxes, what should we expect tim kaine to say in response? >> i guess it would just remind us what donald trump said to us americans last week at the debate. he said basically that the rest of us are chumps. he bragged about the fact that he not only has evaded paying taxes but also that he was hoping for the housing collapse and he said that was just good business so i think it's actually mike pence who's going to have a lot to answer for at the debate on tuesday and i think the fundamental choice that mike pence is going to have to make on tuesday is how far is he willing to go and how far is he willing to risk his own political future to defend -- i mean, we're talking close to a billion dollars that donald trump was -- in taxes that donald trump was able to avoid so that's a big question on the table and then he's also going to have to explain how it is that a man who wants to be commander in chief can be so easily sort of steered off

course such as to get engaged in a twitter war for a week with a young woman who he called miss piggy, who he called fat. so tim kaine i think goes into this conversation able to talk about hillary clinton her ideas, her plans, talking about an economy that works for everyone, talking about how we increase incomes in this country, how we invest in manufacturing. how we talk about clean energy jobs, talking about debt-free college. he has a lot he can talk about but he's not going to have to defend why it is like mr. pence will that donald trump essentially what hillary clinton said last week on the debate stage appears to be true. that one of the reasons he has broken his promise to showing his taxes is he doesn't want people to know how little taxes he's paid. >> and what happened in the presidential debate was that the clinton campaign just expertly baited donald trump not only by having mark cuban sitting in the front row to physically troll him but having the alicia

machado ready to go. a video after. will there be a similar setup in the vice presidential debate. does the clinton campaign have something waiting for mike pence the way they had for donald trump? >> i've been with senator kaine prepping for this debate so i won't give away any trade secrets but i will tell you that i think you're going to see -- senator kaine has been a -- he's a policy wonk like hillary clinton so he's been studying his materials and he's looking forward to the debate. it's better than any debate he's participated in before because the vice presidential debate you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about the top of the ticket, you're talking about your teammate so i think what you'll hear from senator kaine though is a robust conversation about two very different visions for this country. do we want to move forward, build on the progress, do we want to have a country where we are stronger together both at home and abroad where we are not

engaging in the hate-filled rhetoric we've seen from donald trump? and mike pence has essentially let it all pass. he said he agreed with donald trump that vladimir putin of russia is a better leader than president obama. i think he's going to have to answer for that. i hope he'll have a better answer than rudy giuliani for those americans who do tune in to suggest that what mr. trump did makes him smart in terms of evading taxes while the rest of us get up everyday, we work hard, pay our taxes, we do what we're supposed to do which means we're paying for our firefighters, our police officers, our military. i don't think that you will certainly hear tim kaine call the american people chumps for not paying their taxes and i think it will be interesting to see if mr. pence agreed with that and how he will find a way to defend that. >> we will all be tuning in. karen phinney from the clinton

campaign, thank you so much for being here. >> great to be with you, joy. i want to bring in my panel. the nation's joan walsh, the "washington post's" jonathan cape hard, michelle bernard, president of the bernard center for women and public politics, e.j. dionne, author of "why the right went wrong." it's a very prescient book for this time period. thank you very much, panel. i'm going to start with me. joan, these two vice presidential candidates were not picked for scintillating excitement so let's focus in obtain for a moment. >> sure. >> who does tim kaine appeal to? he has this one moment in the spotlight even if it's half the number of people watching, 40 million people, let's say, are tuning in. who should tim kaine try to appeal to? >> i think he can appeal to working class white voters who she struggles with, joy. one little-known fact that's come out of the polls recently is that when you put hillary clinton and tim kaine together on a ticket, compare them to pence and trump he gets a bump from tim kaine. when she's polled alone trump versus clinton, she's one thing in ohio and pennsylvania. she gets a four to five-point

bump which nobody is writing about from tim kaine people like him. the other thing that's important is these two men going head to head on the question of a woman's choice on abortion because tim kaine is with them on the american people. he is an irish catholic who was against abortion, evolved slowly and now stands with the american people. they may have moral questions but they believe it's a woman's choice. smens mike pence is a right wing person. trump likes to control women's body sexually, he has a rigid position on abortion that keeps him out of step with the american people. so on the question of women, where tim kaine was controversial for some feminist groups because of his past stance this is going to appeal to women as well. so white working class voters and all women. >> michelle, to that point, the clinton campaign, the theory is they picked tim kaine to solve what they call their white man problem.

but hillary clinton isn't going to do better than 35% of white men but there is this thing you're seeing in the polls where suburban white women are the movable quantity here. but that does not speak to the other enthusiasm needs of the clinton campaign so you have tim kaine up there, white male, uncool dad or whatever. he seems to be a perfectly affable guy. but do african-americans, young voters, particularly african-american women who are so important and hispanics, what do they get out of a debate between tim kaine and mike pence. >> here's the fascinating thing. i hope one of the things that comes up to mike pence on tuesday night. a week ago speaking at a church mike pence said that there is too much talk in the media about what he calls institutional racism and bias. it's a very important question for the african-american community, for communities of color.

what does he mean by that? particularly when he said it speaking in a church in the wake of the additional shooting deaths of african-american men and the problem we saw in tulsa and north carolina and that is what the public will get from a tim kaine on this topic. he's someone who believes in civil rights. he has a good a track record and if he can point the needle at mike pence and at donald trump and show the american public, particularly communities of color, what we might be in store of in terms of -- in store for in terms of attitudes about african-americans and what is happening in the african-american community it's a very important thing for the ticket. >> i have to play this soundbite of tim kaine. one of his propensities is to launch into spanish. this was at a texas rally in

september. >> pretty simple issues. [ speaking spanish ] jonathan, does that come across as a pander or as sweet and genuine. if he does that during the debate does that help or hurt him? >> it depends on how he does it. that clip you showed doesn't come off as pandering. it says it comes off as someone who is culturally fluent, not just language wise but fluent with the latino community and to michelle's point about tim kaine and african-american issues we cannot forget he was mayor -- well, before he was mayor of richmond, virginia he was a lawyer and worked in housing discrimination in virginia. then in richmond he worked with the african-american community on a host of issues and can't forget he's catholic and goes to a pro dominantly african-american catholic church and has for the last 30 years. so here's someone who comes to the table is who can speak with

cultural fluency in spanish. who can speak with cultural fluency to the african-american community so if he gets that question at the debate that you posed to michelle he will speak in a way that will ring true and genuine and real to african-american voters and depending on how it comes up at the debate if he launches into spanish i believe that latino voters who support him and those who are on the fence and wondering who is this guy and can i trust him that they will come away with a favorable impression. and to those white women you were talking about earlier, joy. i think with governor cane they get someone who is sane [ laughter ] . they get someone who they can look at him and yeah he's the affable dad but he's the affatfe dad when something happens in your house you talk to the

affable dad neighbor and say "can you help me?" and you're reasonably assured he can do something to help. >> e.j., i'm going to make you the closer. your book "why the right went wrong" focuses in the early part on goldwaterism and kind of what that did to the republican party and the fact that while goldwater himself didn't succeed, goldwaterism survived and i'm fascinated to hear your take when you put a mike pence who -- people don't know much about him but they'll sigh him on his own for a good stretch of time putting forward this hard core conservatism. it's not even ronald reagan conservatism. it's hard core far right conservatism. does he have enough of an affability about his presentation that that won't come through to the person watching him? particularly with affable tim kaine on the other side of that stage? i think what trump wanted was to

reassure right wing conservatives in the republican party he's getting that but now that he needs to appeal to swing voters what few there are, tim kaine's ideology won't help much with them and tim kaine will press him on it. we understand the importance of presidential debates. in the last presidential election joe biden deserved a humanitarian award for walking barack obama supporters away from the suicide ledge after president obama lost. i think the model for cain will be al gore in 1996. he tried to separate out jack kemp from the republican party on race and i think what tim kaine is going to go is throw all kinds of terrible things at mike pence which, a, gets them out there for viewers to see but forces pence constantly to make

a choice. is he going to defend this or that or the other or is he going to think about himself after the campaign is over. it will put pence in a difficult position. >> yeah, that's a fascinating question. particularly since he is an evangelical christian and having to mouth the words "i defend what was said about alicia machado" or -- >> sex tape. >> yeah. that will be fascinating. i love you guy, thank you very much. this is a great panel. they'll be back later in the show because they're greatment. up next, more of my interview with expert trump troll and actual billionaire mark cuban. you don't want to miss it.

my name is jamir dixon and i'm a locate and mark fieldman for pg&e. most people in the community recognize the blue trucks as pg&e. my truck is something new... it's an 811 truck. when you call 811, i come out to your house and i mark out our gas lines and our electric lines to make sure that you don't hit them when you're digging. 811 is a free service. i'm passionate about it because every time i go on the street i think about my own kids. they're the reason that i want to protect our community and our environment, and if me driving a that truck means that somebody gets to go home safer, then i'll drive it every day of the week. together, we're building a better california. i had a chance to discuss the fallout from donald trump's disastrous debate performance with somebody who had a front-row seat, trump rival and true billionaire mark cuban. i asked him about trump's

troubling comments around race and how the nation as a whole can do better on the issue. >> he has a real issue with different ethnicities, people of color and he's not comfortable around it. he's from a generation -- his experience, being part of his generation it's made it difficult for them to address so where do we draw a line as a country? that's a whole different issue that's hard to have a definitive answer for. when i've tried to speak directly to race and tried to be self-aware myself it wasn't comfortable for me and created a lot of negative feedback but this is not an easy topic and i think it's something we have to address with ourselves and with those close to us. >> i think you also got credit for being willing to do it and go to an uncomfortable in place. you're in texas, owner of the dallas mavericks, a state that has been a white whale for

democrats in the way pennsylvania is for republicans because of this large hispanic population. democrats haven't been able to get there. give us a bit of what you're hearing on the ground in texas. should we be fooled by these polls that say texas is getting close enough to be in play? . it's so hard to tell. i don't know. it will depend on who can you get to the polls. i can tell you i talked to a lot of people i consider smart that are voting for trump because they're voting their pocketbooks and i talked to a lot of people that sthink like i do that a trump presidency could lead to war and the worst thing that could happen for our children and future and the thing about it is, joy, there's such an echo chamber with news and being on social media. i have the saying that if the news is important it will find me and be in our social media feed but we tend not to look for new sources of information and what scared me here in texas and

really across the country is people have stopped looking for new sources of information and that's allowed us to think those people who are close to us reflect the entire nation or the entire world and i think that is the core of the problem. but to answer your question, i have no idea how it's going to play out because it's just all over the map. >> obviously the world of athletics and sports has long been kind of a bubble in which you've had more interracial activity, a lot of people who have relationships and friendship afriend ships across the racial lines that they may not have had. now with the colin kaepernick protests you're seeing those debates come inside the world of sports. what do you make of it? i know there is a requirement in the nba that players stand for the national anthem but what do you make of the colin kaepernick protest? is it something that nba players might violate the rule to be a part of?

>> i'll tell you what i told our guys. my dad enlisted in the navy when he was 16 and what he told me was one of the reasons he enlisted so early was because his parents had to come from russia and they left because of fear that if they said something that contradicted the government and their country they would be killed so they left to come here and my dad was very, very clear to me that i should always -- we as a family will always respect the thoughts and the speech and rights of others. the first amendment is sacrosanct because today it's somebody else that disagrees with the government and if we don't support them when it's our turn, when mark cuban disagrees with the government there won't be anybody to support me and i said that exact same thing to our players. i said you have to decide what you think is right. you have to decide how -- what message you want to send. as long as you explain it to me.

as long as you explain it to your teammates and as an organization we know what you're going to do so it's not a surprise, we'll support you because that is the american way. and so with our guys i'm going to leave it up to them, i'm going to leave it to them as a team, us as a team and i'll support them. >> yeah, well, with just a couple minutes to go i want to give you an opportunity to handicap the next debate. obviously hillary clinton and donald trump will get another chance to have at it. do you expect donald trump to be more disciplined and do you expect hillary clinton to have more alicia machado moments up her sleeve. >> i expect donald trump to come out just firing, putting secretary clinton on the defensive. everything that is perceived as a misstep he's going to throw at her and he's going to expect her to crumble. he's going to try to play the bully and she's not going to crumble and, you know, i don't have any insights or any inside information but i think she's

going to bait him again because she's going to use the force of his accusations against him and flip it against him and once she turns the tide he won't have a response and he'll be gotten in a few "um, um, um" moments and that, again, will lead him to get more and more combative and lead him to get more and more flusterered and we'll see more of what we saw in the last debate. >> do you have an invite to that one? >> not yet. >> keep us posted, mark cuban, thank you so much, appreciate you coming in to talk to me. >> thank you, joy. appreciate it. >> he is so smart. coming up, blocking the vote wisconsin edition. stay with us.

make sure you stay tuned to msnbc in our next hour. alex witt will have much more on the trump taxes story. and at 3:00 p.m. eastern, the debut of "pulse of america." a brand new weekly show that allows your voice to be heard. and ari melber, who is sitting

in the chair at the helm for that as well as cal perry, they're going to take you through biggest news stories of the day, get your take on what's being said. don't miss it today at 3:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and it's produced by our very own bridgette flanagan and our friend joey apple sauce. best crew, best cast, everything. first, the latest on gop efforts to block the vote. stay with us. the fiery tissue left her nose sore and red. so dad slayed the problem with puffs plus lotion, instead. puffs have pillowy softness for dakota's tender nose. with lotion to comfort and soothe when she blows. don't get burned by ordinary tissues. a nose in need deserves puffs, indeed. now get puffs plus lotion in the squeezable softpack. ugh. heartburn. sorry ma'am. no burning here. try new alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. they don't taste chalky and work fast. mmmm. incredible.

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got to watch your polling booths because i hear too many stories about pennsylvania, certain areas. i hear too many bad stories and we can't lose an election because of you know what i'm talking about. so go and vote and go into check out areas. because a lot of bad things happen. and we don't want to lose for that reason. >> trump is at it again, raising the possibility of a rigged election, even urging his supporters in pennsylvania to monitor the polls on election

day. whatever that means. what he failed to mention is the actual illegal voter suppression that is occurring right now in wisconsin where early voting has already begun in some counties. a bombshell report out this week in "the nation" magazine has exposed that the department of motor vehicles is failing to provide voter i.d.s to those who need them to vote. according to "the nation," two african-american voters, zach moore and claudelle boyd who brought multiple documents to the dmv confirming their identities were turned away without the necessary voter i.d. molly mcgrath accompanied one of those known the dmv. let's listen to their exchange with department employees. >> i'm wondering how that would work if you initiate the petition process? do you get an i.d. for voting? >> you don't get anything right away. >> so even if we start the petition process and it takes eight weeks -- >> right. >> he wouldn't be able to vote. >> right. >> well, i don't know, they're working on that so -- it's kind

of up in the air right now. >> so if you want more information, we can get you the supervisor at window three. >> two days after this story was published a federal judge ordered the state of wisconsin to investigate its voter i.d. process and joining me now is ari berman who brought us this story tin "the nation" magazine he's the author of "give us the ballot." ari, thank you for being here. i want to start where we ended. a federal judge ordering wisconsin to investigate itself. how in the world would that work? >> so basically what a federal judge said is that wisconsin needs to investigate itself own dmv and report back immediately on why people are not getting the voter i.d.s as required by law because the big picture here, joy, is that 300,000 registered voters in wisconsin, 9% of the electorate, do not have strict forms of voter i.d. and the court specifically relax it had voter i.d. law in that state to say that anyone who doesn't have a birth certificate or that kind of documentation, if they go to the dmv to get a voter i.d. they're supposed to

get a certificate for voting within six business days but we interviewed multiple black voters, we obtained tapes from the dmv that showed people are not being offered the certificate for voting, they're not being given voter i.d. and being told that this might take until eight weeks when the election is already over for them to get the i.d.s they need to vote. >> ari, were you able to check in majority white counties to see if the same thing is happening? >> it seems to be a failure across the state because the vote riders, which is help people to get voter i.d.s, went to 10 different dmvs and only three of them even knew about the certificate for voting but it's clearly a problem in the african-american community. i have talked to multiple black voters now who do not have voter i.d.s even though they've been able to vote their entire life and are not being turned away from the polls so this is clearly hitting some voters more than others. this is exactly what republican voters wanted to happen in wisconsin. they said they were "giddy" about the impact the voter i.d. law would have on college

campuses and neighborhoods around milwaukee. they said the voter i.d. law would allow donald trump to win the state. this has always been political. scott walker, republicans in wisconsin passed the voter i.d. law to help themselves politically and hurt those that disagree with them. >> and you write it appears wisconsin is violating multiple court orders by not promptly giving eligible citizens free i.d.s or certificates to vote and laurence tribe tweeting about your story on friday night. he said this, he said "wisconsin governor scott walker should be held in contempt of the federal court six-day voter i.d. order unless his administration complies immediately." is there a way to hold the government of wisconsin in contempt to force them to give people the i.d.s that they need to vote? >> you should ask larry tribe that. he's a more distinguished lawyer than i am. i just play one on tv. basically i think what the judge was saying to the state is that if you report back to me and i don't find what you're saying sufficient, i might be able to block this voter i.d. law. the only reason the wisconsin

voter i.d. law was upheld in the first place is because the state said they were going to give everyone i.d.s. that clearly isn't happening. people are being disenfranchised. early voting has already begun in places like madison and milwaukee and green bay yet people are being turned away from the poll so this is a huge story and i'm happy you're covering this because it needs more national attention. >> and the thing is you know it's easy to speculate this this voter i.d. law was passed in order to help republicans electorally, but you actually have a republican elected official on record saying it. i want to play glen grothman, a wisconsin state representative speaking to wtmj tv back on april 5. listen to what he said about this very law we're talking about right now. >> take me forward to november. you know a lot of republicans since 1984 in the presidential races have not been able to win in wisconsin. why would it be any different for ted cruz or a donald trump? >> well, i think hillary clinton is about the weakest candidate the democrats have ever put up and now we have photo i.d. and i

think photo i.d. is going to make a little bit of a difference as well. >> ari, have republicans or leaders of theseresponded to justify what they're doing? >> governor walker was asked abouthe milwaukee journal sentinel and he says, a, he's investigating and, b, has the full tape been released. he seems to be questioning the motives. i have listened to the recordings, they don't reflect well on scott walker and his administration. they passed this law not to crack down on voter fraud because there wasn't a single case of voter impersonation presented in court. this was all about giving republicans an advantage in elections, disenfranchising college students, african-americans and low-income individuals who tend to vote for democratic candidates. >> absolutely. ari, stay with us. i want to bring in our panel. joan walsh, christina greer and

michelle bernard. christina, i'm going to come to you first. when you see this in north carolina, ohio, wisconsin, not only three swing states but three very closely contested states, let's go through three polling numbers. wisconsin in 2012, romney versus obama. barack obama, 53%, mitt romney 46%. won wisconsin. then you come to what's happening today. russ feingold is poised to take away one of the senate seats, crucial senate seats away from ron johnson. he's polling at 52% versus 42%. up 10 points. then you look at hillary clinton versus donald trump. clinton is up 7% in the polling, 45% to 38%. it's hard to not think this is being done by these dmvs, by republicans in charge of this state in order to change those results. >> right. what i think the real takeaway is hopefully for all of your viewers is that we really need to pay a lot more attention to these down-ballot races. the governor and the state houses across this country, you know, are slowly but surely -- this is the koch brothers and lots of right wing republican money, they have been putting so

much time, energy, effort, and money into changing these statehouses across the country to make them republican. strong republicans. so we see these numbers will probably shift, but in key states, but also in states where they're not necessarily swing states, we're seeing blue democratic states slowly but surely getting republican statehouses. slowly but surely getting a republican governor who may be a little bit more moderate but when it comes to these non-sexy issues, we're looking at this type of behavior which is really frightening. so i would, you know, ask voters to think about not just galvanizing themselves about trump and clinton but really thinking about some of these quote/unquote off years, off-year elections that are really important because we see these people getting elected with sometimes 5,000 or 6,000 voters. and they're in charge of millions of dollars but also our bodies, our children, and obviously our franchise. >> and, joan, you had to christina's point democrats give away half a dozen swing states in 2010, republicans increase

those margins in statehouse in 2014. so even in a reliably blue state like wisconsin republicans were free to implement these laws that they're directly using to keep particularly black voters from getting to the polls. >> i think we have to point out it's an empirical point, it's a fact. this spate of laws began in 2008 with the election of barack obama thanks to black and brown and young and student voters. and so this has been a republican issue, it's always been a solution in search of a problem. it's the great white whale of republicanism, of republican politics that these democrats send their people to the polls, that i volt mute multiple times. really fun fact, the only -- i think one of the two examples of voter fraud in the last two years was a guy in my former town of wisconsin, a republican, who voted multiple times for mitt romney and voted multiple times for scott walker in the recall. so the people that we find over and over, even when we find these five cases of voter fraud, they're not majority --

>> stephen bannon. >> stephen bannon. they're not majority democrats. >> and michelle, i wonder how republicans of color and how republicans justify this when there is no data to show there is voter fraud that causes these laws but there is data to show democrats can win in presidential years. >> well, first of all, joy, they don't have any support whatsoever. and i want to point out quickly a really important point when we talk about what we're watching. the state senator we saw on a clip a few moments ago on the program, glen grothman, i have to tell you and the viewers that it's important to remember that this is also the same individual who in explaining his opposition to the equal pay act being enacted in the state of wisconsin stated, literally, that one could argue that money is more important to men than it is to women. so if we think about that in the context of the gender gap, meaning we know a lot of women vote democrat, vote for

democrats, if we know african-americans primarily vote for democrats, if we look at the people on that tape in wisconsin telling the voters and the american public they planned on voting for hillary clinton but now they don't have an i.d. and will not be able to cast a vote during this election, there is no justification whatsoever. it appears the republican party is literally channeling george wallace from many, many years ago and i'm almost wondering if we are going to get to a point where on november 8 we literally see federal troops having to assist african-american voters and women and others in voting during this election cycle. >> and christina, last point. we cannot lose sight of the fact this is also being done in absence of the voting rights act. >> indeed. and this is what we -- we cannot be ahistorical as a nation. this is not just from 2008, this is sort of, you know, we think about the civil rights act, voting rights about and immigration acts as a try y, res

since '64 and '65 have been organized. they've been slowly and surely eroding things on the state level and we have to be vigilant. >> ari berman, i have to give you the last word on this. do you see any movement on the core issue here which is that the protection of the voting rights act have been stripped away and this is the result? >> i see movement in terms of courts pushing back but i also see the impact of these voter suppression laws that 14 states, including wisconsin, are going to have new restrictions in place for the first time. this is the first presidential election in 50 years without the full protections of the voting rights act and we're already seeing the impact in wisconsin of people being turned away from the dmv, turned away from the polls before we've even got to november 8. so i'm concerned about this problem now and in the leadup to the election. >> we appreciate your reporting on this, ari. keep it coming and we'll keep you coming back when we keep our viewers updated on this. check your registration, make sure you have an i.d. double check, triple check

you're registered to vote. joan walsh and michelle bernard are sticking around, thanks to ari berman and christina greer. more "a.m. joy" after the break. diarrhea, gas or bloating? [ simultaneously ] she does. help defend against those digestive issues. take phillips' colon health probiotic caps daily with three types of good bacteria. 400 likes? wow! phillips. be good to your gut.

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we now know what the trump's talking points will be in response to "the new york times'" article he may not have paid taxes for 18 years. >> the reality is he's a genius. a genius. >> genius? >> genius. >> there's no one who's shown more genius in their way to maneuver around the tax code. >> the genius of donald trump has been to make sure he follows the law -- >> e.j., what are the chances donald trump himself did not write those talking points? >> i'm sure he wrote those talking points. genius is defined as exceptional

intellectual or creative power. i guess he is very creative in his tax returns. he's very creative in self-promotion, but c.s. lewis said it is always the novice who exaggerates, and i thought these two guys had a lot of experience. >> you know what's interesting, michelle, that you have this campaign where the candidate is clearly driving that he wants his own sort of pathologies reflected in the campaigns, talking points in the way sur combats talk about them, then it's willing to see who will go on and do it. christie and giuliani, they're willing to do it. >> it quite frankly is really embarrassing. when i think of genius, i think of albert einstein, madam currie, nelson mandela. i do not think of donald trump as a genius. how they can go out in public and say these things particularly on the heels of the tax issue, think about it, that "new york times" article reported that one year donald

trump reported about $6,000 in income for the year. now, this is a man who is wealthy, he lives in trump tower. if that is a genius, what are they then saying about the rest of the american public that truly earns $6,000 a year? that lives under the poverty level, struggling to make ends meet? does that mean that those people are simply ignorant? it's really a shame. >> i think they're saying they're suckers, right, jonathan? >> chumps, yeah. this guy gets away with -- and illegally. let's be clear here. he's using the tax code to basically stiff the american people to the tune of, as we see in "the new york times" story, a $915 million loss that because of the way the tax laws are written he could possibly have not paid taxes for about 18 years. i think a lot of american people would love to be able to take advantage of that but most,

99.999% of the american people can't do than pi pay their taxes, they pay them on time, and they -- i think a lot of people see it a way of -- in some ways like they're required to pay taxes, but that money goes to things. that money goes to keeping the enterprise of the united states of america moving and potentially moving forward. and here's a guy who wants to run the country who couldn't care less about contributing his fair share to making that happen. >> joan, you know, you can't escape the fact for most people who go to work every day, for those of us who have a job, you don't have a choice. your taxes come out of your check. your taxes are extracted by your employer. i come back it to again. how do people have to do that every day, support a guy who is essentially mitt romney? >> because they are proud of the way he breaks rules that they don't think should exist. i think that's true.

i want to bring david k. johnson back and say we don't know if he lost $96 million that year because we need to see what he said to the fcc, the banks, the casino boards. he may be lying to all the people that he needs to -- for businesses. >> fascinating. i said it to you guys off air. if you read "what's the matter with white people?" "why the right went wrong." "give us the ballot," you will have so much of what you need to know to understand what is happening in this election. not just because they're my friends, those books are essential reading. >> bless you, joy. >> appreciate you guys. michelle, e.j., jonathan, and when these guys have books out, read those too. thanks for joining us. up next, alex witt has more reaction to "the new york times" story that donald trump could have avoided paying federal tacks for nearly 20 years. stay with us. [ piercing sound ]

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