oh, come on, oh, come on. did that undercut that at all? >> i don't ever like that. >> it changed over the course of the 90 minutes. >> i don't from anyone. i didn't like that from trump last monday and i didn't like that from either man tonight. but the atmosphere, feeling i got from both, is that pence, i like the calmness. i like the -- unless your joe biden, then i love it when you're excited. a presentation like that, if you're mind and the calmer one and seem more like a statesman, i think he add very nice night. i thought pence had a nice night. i think he helped the image of his ticket. did he change anything? no. it changes nothing. >> i think there was a decrescendo to hyper to more calm for caine and opposite for pence. he started calm and by the end was rattled. >> he didn't need to be as

annoyed as he was. >> i agree with you about the nuh-uh aspect. i agree with you about the presence that pence had a more solid and serene presence than kaip did. as i said earlier, the denials will come back to haunt him. one of the things that cane believed he needed to do because the ticket needed to is energize the democratic base. so hot button after hot button he went up there to push. >> it felt like a list. if you're watching as a viewer at home i think the viewing was a tad more excruciating -- >> it was deeply unsatisfying and the reason was that it really was and pence had his list too.

he did it elegantly but totally nonsense and north korea deinvolve need a -- >> like the whole thing, i'll be happy to wwork with you when yo a senator again. then deit the second time and i thought oh, he doesn't remember he already did it. >> all of the insults were canned. too much time to prep. less prep. these two had too much time to prep. they don't get enough press attention. i thought they were overwound. >> let's bring our friend reid into the conversation. one of the things we've been talking about is whether or not tim kaine had a different more specific base audience in mind than the over all tens of millions of people that watch this thing. how do you think would you judge his performance specifically tonight which seems like there is a little divid in the room here as to how he did? yeah. it's interesting, rachel. i, too, was extremely distracted by the cross talking.

i thought it made it very difficult to listen to and understand what they were doing and tim kaine is the more aggressive interrupter and cross talker. i don't think that helped him. he was firing so many attacks, so rapid fire and so broad at mike pence that he was sort of losing the point. i came into this debate thinking that tim kaine is the guy they put on the ticket to solve their white man problem. that can't be done. they won't be well with white voters. but then the is you bash an voter. that wasn't his audience. clearly tim kaine came in with one mission only. fire off as many sounds as he could and defend donald trump. in that sense if that was his goal, he was successful. if you're a republican voter you watch if you're old-fashioned republican and you said that mike pence guy seems interesting, i wonder who he will pick for his running mate, right? he came across as if he is the candidate. he stated his own positions, own ideas. he defended the mike pence brand

but if tim kaine's goal was to force him to defend donald trump and to force the viewer to watch him not do that, then if that's his mission, he succeeded. i think the overcaffeinated presentation is just as me watching it as a woman, i thought it was rude to the moderator to keep stepping over her and pretending that she wasn't even there. >> joy reid, thank you very much. after that assessment, let's run that by hugh hewitt who was watching along with us. and hugh, same question. >> i lessen to all of our previous experts, guest and friends and either one has either implicitly or explicitly declared mike pence the winner and hand down. i would add to that simple litany of comparisons between the overcaffeinated tim kaine and very calm and patient mike pence. two strategic objections. not only did he ratatat hillary clinton on syria but he

commented on the exercise of judgment with pence and i would expect donald trump to say, did i not show you what the rest of my administration would be like. i brought along this wonderful conservative calm fellow even 3,000 other appointees will be that way. and more importantly still strategically the avalanche of insults commentary. that reframe the pattern of athak has developed. and i expect you will hear, i hope you will hear on sunday, donald trump adopt that language about the avalanche of language. it just continues secretary clinton. it just continues hillary, that would turn a tactical victory tonight by mike pence. very solid as chris matthews says for his career, no matter what happens in november, into a strategic opening that donald trump could have. i would add when hurricane matthew hits us, if it hits us, only thing we will remember is mike pence won. tim kaine lost. did donald trump learn anything?

>> we keep that in our mind and keep the folks in the possible path from the florida coast on up to the northeast starting with haiti, the bahamas and so on. in our thoughts. and despite the fact you have the disjointed head of the libertarian candidate right over your shoulder. >> pay no attention. >> and -- >> ask him what aleppo is. >> what do you think of nicole's point that by rachel's broadcast tomorrow night, by my broadcast tomorrow night, this is history? >> well, i'm just thinking back to harambe was behind me in cleveland. this is an improvement. it only gets you four days. gets you an opening the doors open. mike pence delivered tonight. and i want toield the rest of my time to chris matthews for the rest of the show. that's what he did, he opened the door to donald trump having a come back after the worst week

since jimmy carter's last week in 1980. that's all mike pence could have done, and he did it. >> thank you. now to andrea mitchell in the spin room. andrea? >>. >> reporter: you can imagine, both spinning for the last couple ef minutes, but the fact is that nobody thinks this really moved the needle other than as hugh hewitt was just saying that mike pence defend his turf for 2020. we saw what bill crystal, eric and anti-trump republicanes have been tweeting. i talked to brian fallon. i talked to jim paul merry and other democrats from the clinton campaign and they believe tim kaine was aggressive. his interruptions was positive, good. he was trying to pin mike pence down and didn't get pence to disavow the controversial things that donald trump has been

saying. we are are hearing a lot of vibe here in the spin room that a lot of people feel that tim kaine was too aggressive. that the impression that the viewers had was that there were too many interruptions. one other thing, a lot of talk about al gore. where is al gore? he endorsed hillary clinton. famously, they had a very difficult relationship at the tail end of course the second term of the bill clinton administration. now there is a point that he will be campaigning. i was told it is not a done deal. they don't want to announce it tonight and they are very close to announcing that al gore will try to win over the millennials that have been so reluctant to join forces with the clinton campaign. >> rachel, these candidate are not broadway actors. they tend to wear their prep on their sleeves and their face answers you can picture someone on team clinton this past week saying, get in there. you know, jump in there. and using the trump model almost from last week.

and that's what we see. >> you can almost see it, we talked to the head of the debate about the fact tim kaine spent five straight days prepping and doing no other event. and you saw him sort of launch 40 ideas at once in his opening statement. i think that sometimes happens when you are built up in that kind of a way. we want to go now to our friend richard engel, chief foreign correspondent in istanbul, watching in the wee hours overnight in istanbul, as we watch tim kaine and his family leave the debate venue. richard we wanted to bring you into the conversation as a bit after truth squad to tell us these guy is are making sense on foreign policy, on national security, on war and peace. >> well, more or alless, yes. there weren't any blatant lies

or miskarkizaticharacterization. effectively talking about tearing up american foreign policy and we have known it f couple hundred years and writing a new script. one thing that strikes me is how russia asserts itself and is asserted in the center of this campaign. both stated and in the background as we talk about the leaks, talking about donald trump's praising vladimir putin. and there is one issue that some fact checkers were asking about, and it goes back to an interview that trump did with abc's stephanopoulos. does donald trump actually know that russia invaded ukraine. it was something that kaine brought up tonight when he was talking about, does trump have the credentials. does he even know that russia took over part of crimea, which is part of ukraine. we have that clip. >> donald trump on the other hand didn't know russia invaded

the crimea. >> that's nonsense. >> he was on a tv show. he said i guarantee you this, russia isn't going into the ukraine. he had to be reminded they had gone into the crimea two years before. >> i have my own ideas. he is not going into ukraine, just so you understand. he is not going into ukraine. can you mark it down. f put it down. >> he is already there, isn't he? >> he is there in a certain way, but i'm not -- >> if you listen to donald trump in that excerpt it does sort of sound like he had forgotten that crimea is part of ukraine and that russia had invaded it. but he could have also been talking about how russia has thousands of troops along the border of ukraine, russia and might go deeper into ukraine and the later on after that exchange trump did tweet out once again, many times that he knows that

ukraine has been invaded by russia and that crimea was taken over. i think that was more of an interpretation. but going back to the initial point i made, russia is -- was so much at the center of the foreign policy section of this. and what we saw was pence laying out a much more aggressive policy to stand up to putin. that's not something that donald trump has talked about at all. he talked about his admiration for the poll numbers that putin gets and we saw pence coming out, calling him repeatedly a small leader. that seemed to be a line that had memorized insulting putin personally. insulting his physical size. and talking about how the u.s. must stand up to russia. even when it comes to russia's involvement in bombing aleppo. >> the provocations by russia need to be met with american strength. and if russia chooses to be

involved and continue i should say to be involved, and this barbaric attack on civilians in aleppo, the united states of america should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets for the assad regime and to prevent them from the humanitarian crisis taking place in aleppo. >> so when you look at the debate as a whole, i think that when it comes to foreign policy, both of these two vice presidential candidates were laying out reasonable arguments for foreign policy. nothing very radical. both blaming each other about what they would do wrong or what they have done wrong in foreign policy. but i would say far more responsible than what we heard donald trump himself talk about in the last debate. >> richard, just on that last clip when that moment really stuck out to me too, because i wasn't sure exactly what pence was sort of threatening there. so pence is saying if russia keeps doing the wrong thing with attacking civilian targets in

aleppo then we need to respond militarily by bombing syrian military targets. i mean, is he talking -- is he con flighting russia and syria in terms of their military action? is he raising the prospect of u.s. military action against the russian military? some people reacted to that and i my initial reaction is that he was almost threatening a u.s./russia war. >> i think he was actually threatening to stand up to russia, to bomb the assad regime, which is an ally of russia. russia just moved missile defense systems in. so dualing the kind of actions that pence was suggesting would certainly lead to a military escalation. the question is, was he talking about the campaign's policy? is this the pence policy on russia? because it was radically different from what we've heard

from donald trump i'm wondering if this is a pivot from the trump campaign. too soft on putin. seen adds too cozy with the russians. speculation about trump's business ties to russian olda garks and are they shady as a candidate. is this pence elaborating his own policy? a very hard line against russia. even threatening potential military confrontation. or was this an attempt by the whole trump machine to align itself more of a confrontational position against russia. >> you'll note the time where richard engel is. 6:15 a.m. the sun has yet to come up on a new day in istanbul. but richard gave up sleep for us. >> thank you, my friend. >> part of our truth squad. >> the deep last point he was making from the trump/pence campaign that with trump you get this incredibly cozy line with russia.

and with pence a threatened war with russia. then they are running as the ticket. and it is kind of like, that vote would be russian roulette presumably. who knows if you get a loaded chamber when you spin that wheel. >> chuck, our moderator from "meet the press," chuck, one point of order. phone call that pence got, we actually did blow up the photo because there is no such thing as iphone screen that can't be seen from across the room. it appears to be the pence daughter audrey on the phone. >> good job, dad. >> that's awesome. >> yes. >> excellent. >> chuck, your findings after witnessing that. >> with this discussion you guys just had with richard, to me helps explain why i think this is a sort of a, you can't just use one sent tones describe this debate, who won, who loss. i believe mike pence did mike pence a lot of good tonight. the question is could he help

donald trump? and now i know hugh hewitt's argument is simply mike pence having a good night help's donald trump. okay, that fair. but he left so much unanswered. and tim kaine stylistically, and i know you guys have gone over this, and some people will be uncomfortable with all the times he interrupted. but he was relentlessly on message and relentlessly aggressive against trump leaving pence to make decisions like sometimes defending them, sometimes not. sometimes contradicting him. and i think the -- it'll be interesting to see tomorrow is i think that while pence won the 90 minutes, they may be the ones having to deal with more contradecon contradigses debate. this contradiction between pence and trump, and so this is where as good of a stylistic night that mike pence had, they may have bought themselves, you know, some annoyances at a

minimum tomorrow if not some fact check push back. >> let's good further. chris matthews thought that demographically pence doubled down on the used to be right block of the pretrump republican party instead of some were predicting he would go for college educated white women. do you concur with that finding? >> i felt like in fact both candidate were talking to political basis and i think it's smart to think that way. not to judge who is watching this debate with a broad brush. but typically vp debates are watched by fewer folks and folks that do watch vp debates are usually the part zans. so it is good for tim kaine to be throwing out the red meat he was doing that meant something to specific democratic con st t

constituency groups and to have mike pence make it clear he is evangelical. so i think on that note both were playing and knowing that the audience might be more base driven than normal. and that's why one other point i make that might dove tail with what chris said is that mike pence did limb self a lot of good inside the republican party tonight. that may help him in 2020 or 2024 should he decide to want to be a the top of the ticket some day and debate three times in a campaign here instead of just one. >> otherwise, chuck, i'll repeat the question i asked at the top of the evening, do you still think dangerous word, because it can be unsettled so quickly, do you still think this campaign is settling? this election season is settling? >> it is weird to say anything involving trump is settling. because he helped create a disruptive atmosphere all year long. but you can see where this race

want to be. keeps trying to revert to 3 to 6-point race. that the norm. like a rubber band that tines and stretches in one direction or get tied and stretches in other direction. looks like a landslide and it snaps back to where we are, which i think is today, until at least sunday, which is sitting here with this three to five-point lead for hillary clinton. >> chuck todd, thank you so much. chris matthews in virginia. chris? >> i agree with what chuck said. as i often do. i think if trump has a good couple weeks and that if is big he can struggle his way back to the situation he was in where he looked like he would win florida, win nevada, win ohio. but that's a struggle from here. he facees a wipeout right now. he faces getting humiliated. a couple weeks ago he faced the prospect of being competitive. so get to there to carry florida, ohio, north carolina, he has to have some really two strong weeks. he has to stop the bleeding.

i think he did tonight. we'll see. but i think his vp did the job for him in stopping the shift to hillary clinton tonight. i don't think that kaine was able to hold on to that lead and keep it going. i do think, if for a while there i thought that the true north of this campaign, default posion was 50/50. very close in the low to middle 40s. and i still think that's possible to go back to. but i agree with chuck. it shifted now where because i think women are starting to make their decision, that women have been really hurt politically. in other word trump hurt himself with women. they are slow to commit more moderate conservative women, republican from suburb. but this stuff with ma chadda was brilliant. they found a human interest case where the big shot treated the little person a certain way that showed what he would do to them. the old question in politics or two questions are, are we going in the right direction. this person running for the office, man or woman, care about

people like you? a fundamental question. when you see the big shot treating the little person in this case a beauty contestant like something less than a person, you say oh, my god, that's what he thinks of me. we have seen this before. yelling at ra railroad engineer, who abruptly stopped and blue the whistle, he said that guy aught to be fired. wait, my dad is an engineer. i give credit to that, digging up by the clinton people. they dug up a story that would have never gotten into this campaign. but it is very important it's in the campaign. i'm surprised, by wait, that senator kaine hit all of the erothness zone didn't hit on that one. >> and duey, looks just like the man on the wedding cake. don't ever do that. >> political history.

>> not up on your tommy dewy stuff. >> on this decision, what chris is talking about there, the issue about how that one attack and one story about trump's past really stuck to him this week with that miss universe thing. i was surprised, especially the way that tim kaine approaches this, that we didn't get more about how governor mike pence has behaved on feminist issues, on reproductive right issuees. specifically on lbgt issues. i don't think that because i'm gay i was looking to hear more than most people were but pence pushing the most progressive lbgt bill and having to embarrassingly walk it back. in congress he said hiv and aids funding shouldn't be disbursed, federally spent, unless it was used on helping people not be

gay. he has issues on gay issues -- >> what is your theory. kaine had everything else. >> i think the debate was essential cure rated, as if it was refrigerator poetry. it was like alphabetical. you can't get to one question on what was described as social issues in the last three minutes of the debate and can think that you are actually having these guys engage on what they thought about. >> that the essence pence -- >> they both have history -- >> they do. that's the most interesting part of the debate because we were closer to the real mike pence and real tim kaine. but we didn't hear about the lbgt issues that he has been so sort of an outlier on to put it mildly. i wondered, i thought kaine would work it in somehow. i wondered if he ran out of time --

>> brought it up in the context of russia once but not in the context of -- >> no. because the guy was sitting at the table. >> right. >> but a footnote, he did get the miss universe thing in. a complicated line, donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the foot. >> and the context of a military conversation. >> exactly. >> as i recall. >> exactly right. the question was, is the world safer or more dangerous now than when obama took office. >> that is like trying to pick up a tree branch being blown through the storm. >> it goes to this idea of taking too much time off, preparing too many canned lines. it was like no one was listening to anyone. tim kaine was reciting his brief. pence was reciting his brief. >> the moderator. >> and nobody was talking to anybody else. >> and they all had their own thing-tsh. >> editors. >> and no one is listening to

anyone. everyone is ranting. and at end -- well you go to the bar. but this whole thing, hillary clinton got herself three to six points ahead by driving his basic bullying really of a woman for weight gain. and it was barely mentioned except in the context you both described. i missed it. she is where she is because she sustained an attack and he helped her for tweeting about it for six days and he didn't mention it tonight. >> editors are great people. i love editor. an editor would have taken that phrase and sort of -- >> highlighted it. put it at the end of sentence instead of the middle. >> so it wasn't just about shooting himself in the foot but what he did to miss universe. not sort of the other thought to it. and that would have kind of paste it somewhere else in the

debate. so you heard it and it stood out. >> i think both candidates add hard time standing out. not just because of talking over but because it was more after blizzard than anything directly. >> you know, there was -- the question about the intelligence surge was, in my favorite, mike pence, of the evening, because rather than talk about what that meant, he went straight to the e-mails, hillary clinton's e-mailes. he just went there abruptly in a way that had nothing to do with the context of the question. >> let's bring in our friend, robert costa, who has been reporting through the evening and talk together campaigns. robert, what have you learned over the course of the evening? >> i just filed my story for tomorrow's washington post. we saw mike pence who night who was different. opposite of donald trump in style and substance. he invoked almost a john melan

camp song. evangelical christianity. but the cracks that he had on foreign policy, when it comes to policy with syria and russia and talked about thing in a hawkish way. reflecting how different his instincts are than the republican standard bearer. >> you highlight in your piece which again you just posted within the last few minutes, you've highlighted the exchange that was punctuated at one point but an almost, almost humorous aside. i don't think meant as humorous, a lot of people took it in a humorous way when mike pence said senator you whipped out that mexican thing again. and kaine responded by saying, can you defend it? a lot of people are purposely taking it out of context for the funny value of it. but you're highlighting that as essentially a bitter dispute, bitter exchange between them over the way that donald trump launched his campaign when he came down the escalator at trump tower last summer. >> rachel, i think sometimes it

wasn't just what mike pence said, as what the indiana governor did say. he was deflective throughout the debate. when it came to a controversy or incendiary statement made by donald trump he tried to move on to something different. this is someone making a case as a mike pence republican, defensive of trump but only to a point. >> robert costa in our newsroom. thank you as always. steve liesman is with us. senior economic reporter with cnbc. steve we rely on you to be our fact checker on all things economic bp what did you see? what were you flagging? >> really interesting debate tonight. brian. i want to start off with one of the most curious comments made by senator kaine about this issue of did donald trump support abolishing federal minimum wage. listen to what he said. >> first donald trump said that wages are too high and both

donald trump and mike pence think we ought to eliminate the federal minimum wage. >> so donald trump seems to have three hands. you talk about two-handed economist. on one hand he opposes the federal minimum wage. on the other one he supported raising the federal minimum wage. out of hands here. but also wants the states to set the federal palestinian mum wage. so we checked a whole bunch of different things. he said he is all over the map on the issue of minimum wage. let's go to the issue of the obama jobs record and poverty level which is so important. >> the truth of the matter is, is the policies of this administration which hillary clinton and senator kaine want to continue have run this economy into the ditch. >> 50 million new jobs. >> since the great depression. >> my question was -- >> million more questions of people living in poverty than the day that barack obama with hillary clinton at his side and stepped into the oval office. >> we can't quite get to the 15 million but let's show you what

we did dig up. 11 million since he took off. that was obviously in the throws of a very deep and severe recession. 14.2 million which is a point where a lot of economists start to count which is when job growth stopped declining, september 2010. a very severe recession. finally this issue of poverty. yes technically 43 million people in poverty. obama took office in t '09. it is about flat since then. it has come down since then. this issue of taxes mike pence said the issue that donald trump used taxes just the way he is supposed to. the fact is on that we can't tell because we haven't seen his tax returns. >> steve liesman in our newsroom. steve, thanks. while you were talking surrounded by secret service we watched the pence family getting ready to leave the kef lar

curtains that separates the exit of the building from the wider world outside. katy tur who covered the trump campaign since the very beginning is with us from las vegas, nevada. katy, why are you in las vegas, nevada? >> donald trump is in las vegas, nevada right now. he was live tweeting this event. this debate from his hotel just down the vegas strip from where i am now. he is surrounded by some of his senior aids, including his ceo steve bannon, hope hegs and steven miller. he was mostly tweeting republican opposition or republican research, opposition research as well as including retweeting a number of his supporters including one that called tim kaine looking like the evil crook out of the batman movies.

focused on pence and how he performed during debate, governor pence did everything that donald trump did not do during his first debate. he remained calm, didn't let senator tim kaine get under list skin in any way. deflected criticism. and repeatedly pivoted to friendlier territory. that's what they wanted donald trump to do during first debate. they wanted him to do that to couple off more presidential. to calm and ease fears for those who felt like he was too erratic or not presidential enough to hold the highest office in america. so going forward, they are likely to take performance from governor pence and try to show donald trump how h can better perform in the next debate. the next debate is a few days away. sunday in st. louis. a different kind of debate. it's going to be a town hall. if this is something donald trump has not done so far on a national stage at that level during the primaries there were many people on stage. this will be a one on one debate

with hillary clinton. and a much different setting. they will be able to stand, go to the audience, take questions. this is a different sort of atmosphere. the campaign is trying to figure out a way to get him on the message. trying to figure out a way it make sure that he delves into policy. knows what he is talking about. and isn't set off by hillary clinton. now that's one area where the campaign aides say he did not do as good of a job as they hoped during the first debate and it is an area they are hoping going forward he will figure out a way to do. >> katy tur, high above the strip in las vegas. thanks. >> one of the thing that we sort of looked forward to with this debate is whether this was going to be one of those vice presidential debates that is remembered for a zinger. right? senator, you're no jack kennedy. can i call you joe? democrat wars. you earned your reputation as a hatchet man. we got some good individual

lines remembered from vice presidential debates. we've also seen vice presidential candidates able to sort of clean up after the somebody at the top of the ticket add bad first debate. that happened on a number of occasions. happened in 1984 when ronald reagan add first bad debate and arguably happened when dick cleny add good debate after george w. bush add bad one in 2004. it also arguably happened when joe biden sort of cleaned up after barack obama having a bad first debate against mitt romney. there are some things that we know about sort of historic contours of the way the vice presidential debate can make a difference. question is, does tonight fit either of those historic patterns? or did it make a difference in a way that is new and improved from our previous history with these kinds of debates. the man who knows is nbc presidential historian who joins us now.

michael, great to see you. >> thank you, rachel. >> oh do we have -- do i just not have his audio? can you hear him? >> can you hear him okay? >> now i can hear you. michael, what is your overall take on how the debate went and whether it was important. >> you and i talked about the vice presidential debates and one thing that runs like a thread through all of this them is you have a vice presidential candidate defending the candidate over and over again. george bush said, not in a debate, i'm for mr. reagan blindly. people thought he almost went overboard in blessing things that president reagan had done in the '94 debate. what is like these other debates? what i was astounded by is the number of times that mike pence declined opportunity to defend donald trump against tim kaine's attacks. kaine would talk about attacks on mexican americans and women

and so on. and pence would just sort of, almost suggesting that cane had done something gross by even mentioning such a thing and sort of pence sort of flicked it away almost as if they were discussing the antics of a child. now why is it that other vice presidential candidates in history have defended their presidential candidates so zealously? number one that's their job in these debates. but number two, they do it because if their ticket gets elected and it becomes vice president he has it depend on the president to decide whether he has a lot to do or whether, you know, he is essentially distanced from the oval office and astounding thing to me tonight is that you know pence declinedsome chances to defend trump suggested to me that you know, maybe he is not too optimistic about the possibility of being vice president and therefore he thought it was okay to do that. >> michael, i'm remembering one of your favorites, lbj telling

hubert humphrey he wanted a certain piece of hubert humphrey's anatomy in his -- >> can we say this after 11:00? >> we can act it out. >> i think people can guess. wanted a certain bodily part zipped up in lbj's pocket. >> you mentioned 41 however and this next format is town hall. and that sometimes favors as it did with a very kind of tack tile politics from arkansas, sometimes favors the people willing to stand up and make a human connection. bill clinton's famous quote that when something wrong happens in my state there's a good chance i'll know their name. both of these candidates are a little challenged on that front. so that will be interesting to see how they are coached, quite frankly. >> i think it's going to make it more difficult for both of them but maybe more difficult for

donald trump because hillary clinton has been doing these town meeting since she was at least elected senator of new york 16 years ago. so has some experience in that. that brings up another thing, brian, as i was looking at tim kaine's performance, i'm guessing here, but i would presume he went to vice president biden and said, what advice do have you for me. and biden might have said look at my 2012 debate with ryan and i interrupted and it work had for me. perhaps biden might have been better at doing that than kaine might have been tonight. >> as someone's council we are so proud to be here, thank you for staying up late with us. we will get back to you on if we can use the name. >> if not we will act it out. >> thank you, michael. another break for us. live coverage coming out of tonight's presidential debate will continue on the other side.

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force so they will all be gone. i can't imagine how you would defend that. six tim tonight i have seed to governor pence you can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's issue on one after the next. in all six cases he refused to defend -- >> not -- >> and yet he is asking everyone to vote for somebody that cannot defend. >> a selection of some of the tim kaine points and quotes from tonight. i'm look wlaing what we call th first draft of history. by julie pace and joe beaumont. chris matthews, earlier, this may break, socio economically, may break the intelligence as take away from this.

lauren o'donnell has been think what others have been saying having witnessed the debate he witnessed, lawrence? >> brian i want to go back to something that steve smith said earlier which i think bears repeating every half our or so. it is very unlikely this debate will make any difference in the outcome vice presidential debate usually don't. this debate will as a kind of viewing experience of an hour and a half be forgotten quickly. but something will live on and that is the stuff that the clinton campaign will be able to extract to use against mike pence. there will be video from this debate of mike pence denying that he has said things that he has already said on videotape. those two things will be stuck tobl. possibly in a vinton commercial. same thing using mike pence's words denying things donald trump has said. i can't think of the thing right new that you lift out of this debate and try to use as trump campaign commercial.

something you can pull out of tim kaine's performance to use against the clinton campaign after the fact. so i am not one who is joining what may be a majority vote tonight in commentary thatike pence won this debate. i don't think mike pence won this debate. i think he left material that is really rich for the clinton campaign to use and look, i can tell you at 10:00 tomorrow night on the last word, i will be showing that video of mike pence, what he said tonight, and the truth of what he has said in the past. that's not going to look good for mike pence. i'll look but i'm not sure i will find such video in this debate for tim kaine. >> i'll tune in but spoils the surprise of tuning in. >> let me just ask you, you've been in this business long enough and you've seen how our jobs changed in relationship to all the other ways people get their news and information and process events like this in the news. obviously the main thing that's happened over the course of the last few years is the rise of social media and the way people

send each other stuff in addition to just getting from talking heads on tv. do you think that changes the overall balance of whether you can afford to just win in the room by saying donald trump didn't say that. i never said that, donald trump never said that. if it does create the kind of liability ufr talking about for follow-up stuff. for recut clips. not just fact checking but repackaging of the information to show that those denials are in fact not true. >> it is a huge fact eer tonight, rachel. much more than the presidential debate. debate had an 84 million turnout of people watching in realtime. those people don't have to look at anything after the debate. it is entirely likely that more people will see elements of the debate after the debate has occurred. see it on your show. on my show. see it throughout this network. on-line. friends sharing pieces of it on twitter. all sorts of things. and anecdotely and i had this

conversation with chuck todd off camera, he said the same thing. every civilian when i asked if they were watching the debate, they weren't. every one them watched the presidential debate. not one planned to watch this one. we will see what the number is. the way you call a winner here is we have a sign traffic poll of the people out there who watched it. scientistic poll of the viewers, not us. those people will tell new that poll when they think the winner is. >> thanks. nicole want in on this. >> for the second time tonight i completely agree with everything lawrence said in that the commander-in-chief forum, largely perceived that hillary clinton had a rougher run than donald trump. yet, she yielded so much about the material about putin. which i obsessed with for the rest of the night.

and the way this is sort of received in the aftermath, some of that statesman like presence that i appreciated as a viewer watching live, may be lost to some of the material and some of the fodder. >> yes, for the change of chairs watching. >> and a different reality check, there may be a lot of material about pence basically coming out of that. things he denied that clearly were said. but very few people will go to the polls to vote against mike pence or against tim kaine. and a lot of people will good and vote against donald trump or against hillary clinton. >> just because -- there is why i think there is important construction that pence was saying he didn't say that, didn't say that, didn't say that. it just gives the clinton campaign, another opportunity, if they package it right, oh, yes, he did.

he didn't say that? you want to hear it again. it gives them another vehicle it rehash, not just that mike pence didn't tell the truth but here is reminder of the stuff said that the campaign doesn't want to defend. >> we have another fact check and that is from the pint gone. a veteran producer who knows things all things pentagon as we regard her as our joint chief. she's been listening to this and standing by and courtney on putin specific, what can you add to the conversation? >> just as you've been discussing here, this is one instance where pence said something during the debate where the clinton campaign could use old video of him that disputes what he said tonight. some what contentious back and forth between tim kaine and mike pence about whether pence supports putin as a leader. let's take a listen. >> governor pence says inarguably vladimir putin is a better leader than -- >> that is inaccurate.

>> and i just think -- >> he is stronger been stronger on the world stage -- >> no, you said heard. >> and just last month, listen to what he said on cnn. >> i think it is inarguable. he is a stronger leader in his country that barack obama has been in this country. aep donald trump has numerous flattering things about vladimir putin calling him a great leader. just last month at nbc's commander-in-chief forum, talking about approval rating answers terrific leader and how vladimir putin says flattering things about him and he will repeat that and he will say flattering things about vladimir putin. mike pence has said some flattering things about vladimir putin. tonight is a real change from that. there is a huge despair as richard engel noted as pence

called putin a small and bullying heard of russia. this is not what we have been hearing from trump during the campaign. >> it is the language people have been wanting to hear from the top of the ticket for so long. that is the biggest disparity. again, courtney, thank you so much. james carvel has been listening. james on this point of what survives tomorrow, what survives by prime time tomorrow evening on the cable networks who covered this sort of thing. what your guess? >> i think the conservatives are liked and they will really like his clot his -- secretary clinton and pence and trump that that's clear. matthew will come and dominate the coverage and you know, lauren will show factual clips

and fact checkers will be up all night and we will take it from there. but come sunday night, this will be little note end long forgotten. >> james carvel, watching along with us. just handed a quote from tim kaine on a rope line tonight at a watch party. i feel good. look, after i see all my buddies, inaudible, it was intense, intense but fun, it was fun. it was the fastest 90 minutes in showbiz. oh, look at the time. another break for us. we'll be right back after this. people say,

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get started for free at ancestry.com senator, you ripped out that mexican thing again. look -- >> can you defend it. >> there are criminal aliens in this country, tim, who have come into this country illegally perpetrating violent and taking lives. and he also said and many of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of your quote. if you want me to go there, i'll go there. >> what lives on from this debate. how this debate resonates over the course of this evening into the next day. as it competes with other news this week, whether anything from this even lives until this weekend when the next presidential debate is, i will tell you one of the things that may live on is that line in part because at least for a little while this evening, that mexi n

mexicanthing.com was redirected to the hillary clinton website. just as you said, do you want a taco truck on everything corner. that mexicanthing.com made it. >> some of them i assume are good people. >> i've had occasion to write that several times. i remember it and some of them -- not many. and some of them i assume are good people. and one thing that struck me, tim kaine, it was hard to hear because this s a lot going on. everybody talking at once. attacking trump's taxes at least four times. maybe more. i think that will be a big thing this week and i think you know, these weren't the opening salvos but i think a lot will be made -- >> well pence, he's going to release them, he's gonna release

them, he's gonna release them. >> i have a question coming out of of katy tur's reporting from high above in las vegas. so they will show trump/pence's performance and say, do that. how do you "do that "? >> well you have to sit down with him and get him to watch the tape for 90 minutes. i'm not sure that from everything we know that mr. trump is willing to do that. but you look, if you consider his debate performance, there is nowhere to go but up. so i think what they want to show him is that on any one of the number of issues, this is how you pivot. this is how you turn back and attack. this is how we drive a change message. this is how we talk about the national security issues and the critique that can be offered of the obama administration. there's a fairly scathing critique to be made about president obama's and secretary clinton's foreign policy

records. but donald trump for whatever reason chose not to do that in the first debate. and so look, i think if you listen to all of the commentary tonight, i that i like pence, did a fine he ran down the field. he got dirty. >> he got bruised, interrupted and taking style shots. but what's going to be left over