universally recognized as a terrific manager and well liked probably wished he had been spinning for either tim kaine or mike pence, as it stands he gets to have his entire winter to think about last night. it is a remind per managers and football coaches. they're just like politicians too. they get some bad days and to have spin. that's all tonight. "with all due" starts right now. with all due respect to mike pence, last night he seemed to have forgotten is to keep the main thing the main thing. >> let me be clear on this russian thing. let me go to this iran thing. i appreciate this iran thing. >> this whole prudent thing. >> you whipp eped out that mexi thing again. >> if it's not one thing it's

another. mike pence feeling pretty good today. pence had a debate last night. >> reviews from all quarters. 36 million people watched pence v. kaine. 15 fewer million eyeballs than paul ryan and drew biden drew. as far as style goes, pence' mild mannered, much prepared, disciplined defense of donald trump and trump's policies and criticism of hillary clinton and her policies had much of the political world declaring that at least when it comes to debating skills, donald trump may have been upstaged by his number two. it was a narrative he was trying on knock down today in harrisonburg, virginia, where he demurred and called trump the ultimate winner. trump, on the other hand was in a credit taking mood today. in nevada. for putting pence on the ticket. >> how many of you watched the

vice presidential debate last night? mike pence did an incredible job and i'm getting a lot of credit because that's really my first so-called choice. my first hire as we would say. and i'll tell you he is a good one. he was cool, he was smart, he was, i mean, you just take look at him. he was meant to be doing what he's doing and we are very, very proud of governor mike pence. thank you. some reporting that he would be called not as good a debater and that pence was seen as helping him out of the hole. how do you think donald trump seems to be repersonally? >> well, there's another element. trump didn't really defend a lot of trump's policy vgss pence

didn't defend a lot of trump's policies. he did not tweet in the middle of the night. today maybe he's like protesting too much, a little bit. like overpraising pence in some ways. as least as of now on the base of what we've seen and anything that i personally know on the base of reporting, i think that has been overblown. the notion that trump has taken offense to the way pence played it last night. >> if it is the case that donald trump realizes he needs to win the debate on sunday, that his campaign is in a real tough place right now. i think one of the smartest things his staff has convinced him to do is to walk about this debate as a win of ideas. lower taxes, smarter foreign policy. if trump is focused on that. i think he is doing just fine and i agree. it seems to me had from what i've been told, it is overblown. and trump hasn't got the best

overplay in the world. >> the nominees do not like to be overshadowed by their understudies. when we saw in 200 petition john mccain might be upset about sarah palin overshadowing, he was pretty happy of he said this is helping me. i think trump recognized he was on a bad run. that pence gave him the best. he stopped the schneid and he knows the pressure is on him to perform. i think the framing, as in won the battle of ideas. there were a the love foreign policy issues. where pence, effectively took exception to trump and the clinton campaign put those out in a long list. that expense in a different place. >> but he has on lower taxes on, changing washington, he has on citizen hillary clinton. this is the best day they've had in a while. and the reality was mike pence was not talking about the indiana miracle.

>> that's true. he did not talk about himself. >> i think donald trump might feel a little odd about it but largely feeling good. >> whatever weirdness he feels, he's held in it check is that that's all that matters. the second presidential debate is this sunday in the old gate away to the left. playing few miles from here tonight. we're talking about st. louis. we have already seen trump, of course, practicing some new moves on the campaign trail in advance of that debate. always few tip that's he might afraid mike pence' debate last night. pence often turned the moderator questions into operators to attack hillary clinton. he looked straight into the camera and spoke directly to the american people. >> honestly, senator, you can roll out the numbers and the sunny side. i have to tell you, people in skranlon know different. people in ft. wayne, indiana, know different. this economy is struggling.

one of the last things he mentioned was border security. that's how washington always plays it. >> i can make it very clear to the american people. after traveling millions of miles as our secretary of state, after being the architect of the foreign policy of this administration. america is less safe today than it was the day that barack obama became president of the united states. >> mark, that's a good debater's skillful it is always effective. donald trump didn't do it very much in the first debate. mike pence did it last night. trump could clearly learn from that. what else? >> amazing that tim kaine failed. >> utterly. >> fighting with the moderator and fighting with mike peninsulpeninsulce. he didn't know which cameras to talk to. >> make america great again. the democrats have turned it into a negative statement. donald trump has always been good at, despite some calling him dour. he has always been good at

reaganesque optimism. look at this and think if trump talked more like this on sunday. >> we're going to have a stronger america. when you hear him say he wants to make america great again. when we do that, i do believe the american people will be standing taller. they're going to see that real change can happen after decades of just talking about it. when that happens, the american people will stand tall. stand together. and we'll have the kind of unity that has been missing way too long. >> that's the kind of message trump could absolutely departmeadapt. i was surprised he didn't do more of it. >> he could adopt it. the democrats are right about this. trump's book, he says america is a hell hole. in the crapper. and i need on fix it. his message is optimistic in that he wants to improve the

country but his view of where america is now is pretty dark and pessimistic. that has been true all along. so it would be hard to be as sunny as mike pence but he has to try a little bit. another thing mike pence did well. he is folksy. he is from indiana. i do think that trump could learn something from the colloquial way in which pence talks. let's take look. >> i have to tell you, i'm a small town boy from a place not too different from farmville. i grew up with a corn field in my backyard. my grandfather immigrated to this gri. they ability family and a good name. >> a couple things. one which of, the colloquialism of it. another thing is the biographical nature of it. he is talking about himself in human, relatable terms west didn't see a lot of that. >> trump likes fast food and he

was born in queens. he'll never be at the same level as pence, talking about being a more ordinary person. donald trump's life for the last several decades has been anything but ordinary. at the same time, i think he is yet to, in a compelling ask hard felt way, talk with people he's met on the campaign trail. a staple of running for president. in the town hall, if trump can't talk about, react to people asking him questions suggests he understand think what their lives are like, he will be on the short end of that exchange. >> or talk about his family. he loves his kids and grand kids. >> he said he couldn't talk about them for more than like a minute. >> there are things, again, both these candidates. hillary clinton has had this problem, too. he needs to talk about himself in a more human way that people can relate to. >> pence was strong on that and a model for anybody in a debate like this. so far, as we've talked about mike pence and his strong performance, we've talked about

style on. substance, the governor of indiana who likes to borrow the baseline facts being stubborn things, had a few truth telling problems. -the claim that the clinton foundation spends less than 1/10 of its donations on charitiable causes. the real numbers are more like 90%. that the clinton campaign is in favor of open borders. media fact checkers jumped when pence disputed the claims that trump has said in the past. some of those assertions were about positions trump has shifted on. others are a lot about semantics. kaine himself was also sometimes not having anything but a little bit of trouble with the truthful he said hillary clinton worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the iranian nuclear program. of course, john kerry was the one who negotiated the deal and the pact does not totally

eliminate iran's capabilities. doctor yet he was by me and others declared the winner of the night. so john, is the media wrong to focus so much on style as opposed to talking about the substance and truth of what they said? >> i think there is a balance. anyone who thinks style matters, that this is not a performance, is nuts. that's part of what this is about. it is why they spend so much time working on. >> it is part of being president or vice president. >> yes. so it is correct to talk about style points. the campaign thinks about it too. on the other hand, talking about what is accurate and not accurate. the fact checking cottage industry a little out of control. >> everything to them is an opportunity to say, fly speck something and overstate the sent to which something is wrong. >> and it takes longer. right after the debate we have an impression of how people

performed. it takes longer to go back. you've had 90 minutes to go back and do the fact checking elements. in pence' case, this has sunk in. that he denied a lot of things that trump has said. and it is getting out there. the clinton campaign is focusing on it so we should focus on it on. both. >> and we should not be so impatient. not just was technically wrong but what is meaningfully wrong. and what impressions need to be corrected. not fact checking for saying, ha ha, you got this fact wrong. here's what you need to know, voting public. when this candidate said x, you should know that wasn't true and that matters. pence because he was dealing with trump doctor complexity, said more things that were untrue but it wasn't a giant miscore. >> it was a mismatch. >> a pretty big mismatch. on another thing that has been in the political blood stream is

that mike pence may have his eye a white house bid in four years. the notion that may have been animating himself in terms of distancing himself from donald trump. are conservatives and liberals alike talked about it. this morning it was a democratic talking point. >> pence decided to play his own game. >> mike pence decided this debate would be an audition for him for 2020. mike pence had his own agenda. to me he was auditioning for 2020. >> what we saw is vote for me in 2020. >> he is running in 2020. >> he threw trump under the bus. this is about mike pence running the primaries in 2020. >> he had a strategy to promote himself at the expense of donald trump. >> so mark, the trump, the pence 2020 theory, do you buy it? >> no. mike expense trying to get donald trump and himself elected to the white house.

clearly he realize that his performance last night, and his general role, leaves him as strongly positioned as anybody to run in 2020 if trump loses. but people who think he made the choice and said, i'm going on throw trump under the bus. he went out of his way to do the best co-to defend trump. that that sets him up for 2020, that is not his primary sense of what he's doing. i think anybody who says otherwise doesn't know mike pence. >> you can believe all the following things. these are all true. mike pence has thought about running for president. mike pegs would like the run for president. if donald trump loses, he would like to run for president. and it is true that he did not defend donald trump in an aggressive way and line up shoulder to shoulder with donald trump in the by a tim kaine did for hillary clinton. there's a reason. they disagree a lot of things and trump said a lot of things hard to defend. but i think it is too much, he had a strategy. he has a conspiracy.

in his mind, the whole time he was planning to throw donald trump under the bus. he didn't and i don't think he was mainly guided by that. but all the other things true. >> and i think sometimes when he disagrees, he is doing it because he thinks it is they know ticket. >> yeah. >> all right, up next, 2016 goes back to the 90s. we'll talk about hillary clinton's latest big name surrogate out on the trail. and then you totaled him. you two had been through everything together. two boyfriends, three jobs... you're like nothing can replace brad. then liberty mutual calls... and you break into your happy dance. if you sign up for better car replacement™, we'lpay for a car that's a model year newer with 15,000 fewer miles than your old one. liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. the search for relief often leads to this. introducing drug-free aleve direct therapy. a high intensity tens device that uses technology once only in doctors' offices.

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hillary clinton's team is cleaning up a mess after monday. bill clinton called obamacare the craziest thing in the world. >> and now the former vice president, albert gore will reportedly hit the trail. he will talk about global warming as he often does. but he will also warn about third party spoilers, a topic he

knows a little bit about. >> my question for you is, hillary clinton, courting trouble by getting this particular band back together. >> if that's the biggest thing. they'll try to put in place a system to keep bill clinton from causing problems. al gore is not going to break through to young people. i've been with millennial who's haven't even heard of him. er if anything, he is associated with global warning. every vote counts, especially and including florida. and one candidate cares about climate changes which matters to millennials. gore may not do that. but he will get press coverage. that allows them to make the case in the media to, on those two issues which are vitally important in florida and elsewhere. >> yeah. i don't see the down side. this is an all hands on deck for

hillary clinton. she is ahead. she would like the sew this up. >> it came out ten years ago. for a lot, they are eight or nine years old when they came out. and zboor big figure. he cares a lot about the question of climate change. he is not someone, in terms bernie sanders does. i see no real risk in that. and you're right about bill clinton. this is collateral damage. you have bill clinton on your side. 90% of the time he will be great and 10% he will cause problems. >> there may beball and hillary psycho drama. hillary and her team have done a good job keeping it hidden and below the surface so it is not affecting in public. >> i like when you said there may be psycho drama. oh, there's psycho drama. >> coming up, strategists, strategists and more

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does she have a good body? no. does she have a fat [expletive]? absolutely. do you treat women with respect? i cat say that either. [burke] hot dog. seen it. we know a thing two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ welcome back. our next guest tonight, they're fired up and ready to go. the senior adviser, boris epstein. deputy campaign manager of this cycle for martin o'malley's presidential effort.

the rapid response for president obama's re-election campaign. >> it's spicy over there. >> all right, you two. let's start with this question. if you were lookinger found a data point in the last 48 hours that would suggest that donald trump was ready to have a stronger second debate than the first debate, what would you point to? >> are you looking for a number? define a data point. >> just something that haened. >> maybe watching mike pence and learning from him. i don't think that's one of his, donald trump's strong suits. but look, mike pence, we were talking about this. i'll come plimt your guy. he always has a reputation of being this blow dried good reputation on tv and it came through. and i think he could learn from it. >> what's something you've seen or heard that makes you think, he gets it. >> first of all, i think we are continuing the trajectory we saw

last week. we are leading in this race and will continue doing in it st. louis and then las vegas. so i think the swing out west has been great. the visit out west, starting in virginia with the veterans. going on from there. great speeches, he's energized, ready to go. and talking about the issues, national security, the economy, and the town hall format very much length itself to donald trump. he is authentic. she's robotic. >> where are you leading in the polls? >> we have two new polls out today. the mondaymouth which putser trump up. and the poll puts her up by 6 points nationally. every national poll and every battleground poll the last five or six days has shown her picking up speed. >> we're in the upi, in the rasmussen. we were down 4 so that has trended toward hillary clinton.

>> the upi poll. >> i didn't know there was a upi. >> the tracker polls measure intensity and i think they've been a very good measure of where this election is. the polls are coming out nationally. are backed by the media spin after the previous debate. >> as some would say, it was donald trump's poor performance the first debate. >> i'm saying media spinecause i'm confident with the first performance. >> you call it a poor performance, i call it a re-enactment of the behi hinden. >> wow! >> my lines are not rehearsed like that. i don't have the zingers. >> how did tim kaine do last night? >> unhinged. >> there are two metrics by which you judge how people

perform in debates. style and substance. on style, look. points to go mike pence. his demeanor was good. he stayed calm throughout. in terms of substance, i think tim kaine got the better of it. we're seeing it in the coverage. last night, the coverage was, mike pence won. today people are focusing in on how mike pence wouldn't defend donald trump's offensive comments. >> that's not substance. that's style. >> let me finish. what's -- he wouldn't defend muslim -- he would not defend the deportation pass which donald trump laid out. >> on what topic do you think kaine was stronger than pence? >> yes. and he articulated -- >> iran is a joke. kaine tried to say because of hillary clinton, iran doesn't

have nuclear weapon. he know at the end of ten years, they can do whatever they want. $1.7 billion have gone to iran somehow unrelatable, let's be real, that was ransom. so hillary failed on russia, on syria, on libya, failed on everything she's done as secretary of state. so what do you want to talk about? >> let's talk about russia. >> a 90-minute speech. >> we're going to come back both boris and liz after this. you'll never guess who will join. stay tuned for that. i have asthma... ...one of many pieces in my life. so when my asthma symptoms kept coming back on my long-term control medicine. i talked to my doctor and found a missing piece in my asthma treatment with breo. once-daily breo prevents asthma symptoms. breo is for adults with asthma not well controlled on a long-term asthma control medicine,

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we're back with the trump

senior trump campaign organizer. form he rnc online communication director. liz, you are vociferously and sometimes saltily anti-trump. >> and anti-hillary. i hate everybody this cycle. >> just talk from the standpoint of someone who doesn't like either one of the tops of the ticket. how do you think the vice presidential debate played out? >> given that it was a debate seemed to focus heavily on the negatives of both hillary clinton and donald trump, i felt like a great deal of what was said and it was tremendously accurate. like most americans, i cam away from it feeling extraordinarily demoralized about the terrible choices that the two major parties have put forward this cycle. and you know, really hoping that a lot of other people who are watching that will hopefully investigate the other options, consider writing themselves in or someone else that they like.

or skipping out voting on the presidential altogether and focusing on down ballot. but i thought that it was an interesting debate. for once this cycle, we saw a debate where people sort of acted the way you expect them to act in debates. which was gratifying and relieving and refreshing in a particular way. >> i didn't expect tim kaine to act like that in a debate. coming in, too. red bull. who knows? i was really surprised. i did expect a measured gait some fireworks but i was shocked by the way he carried himself. >> i let you talk so i'll talk now. boris, you're the king of interrupting everybody. you should take tips from kellyanne conway about not interrupting all the women all the time. you argue like tim kaine here. >> i was the one talking. here's what i was going to say before liz decided to jump back in. on style, i think you're totally right. governor pence should be measured, showed himself someone

ready to step into the role of vice president. but tim kaine came in with the canned lines and he didn't seem to enjoy himself. >> switch to sunday night and start with liz smith here and then the other liz. it seems to me trump needs not only a good debate performance but a good audience. what's your trajectory? will the ratings be anything like the first time? >> i don't think so. >> how many will watch? >> look, i'm not an expert in these things. i would say 70, 65. >> liz? >> what do you think? >> i havno particular views with regard to ratings or rematch. i suspect that yet again we'll see a debate between two people who have historically high unapproval ratings. and people are not going to be very enthused about voting for. >> but they do know what aleppo

is. >> actually, unlike, i think trump does. i think it is interesting that mike pence clearly does is that last night he outline ad totally different policy to what donald trump has. boris, boris, boris. can you avoid interrupting people for like half a second? because every time i see out tv, this is all do you. >> liz, let me ask you about your new candidate, gary johnson. in an interview with andrea mitchell, he proudly said i don't know any world leaders, they're all horrible politicians. that's why i don't like them. is that a position you're comfortable with for president of the united states? >> it is not the optimal position. come fired hillary clinton and trump foreign policy, i'll tate. at least the isn't a guy buying into, for trump's part is buying into the idea that he can do the same thing that hillary clinton tried and failed at a couple years ago. at least gary johnson is

somebody who i think understand that's russia is instinctively disinclined to be our friend no matter how much we kiss their butts which is something donald trump keeps trying to do and keeps thinking he'll make pals with vladimir putin. it is completely inaccurate, boris. i know that you spend a lot of time tv so it is hard to keep up on the news and what your candidate actually says. the reality is your candidate spends more time kissing vladimir putin's butt than anything else. >> you just like saying the word butt. maybe that's why you're not in a campaign. >> i've bone campaign this is cycle. i ran the super pac that did the most damage to your client which is why you're policed off at me. >> let me ask you this question on. this question. on a factual matter. over the course of the last 24 hours, i've read countless conservatives. countless foreign policy conservatives who have agreed the clinton campaign. long lists of places where it is

at odds. not a democratic talking point. >> just a fact. you hear it from neo cons. are you trying to make the claim mike sxens donald trump are in sync on russia, syria, all the places? >> on russia. >> wore syria. >> start with syria. on syria, donald trump and mike pence have been very specific. we need safe zones in syria for the refugees to be in years. i can't as far as dealing with the crisis, both have been specific and in sync that we need work with our allies. >> donald trump, quote, let syria and isis fight. why do we care? let isis and syria fight. and let them fight isis. >> where is that quote from? >> i don't have a date on the quote. >> he says things like that all the time. >> hold. on are you saying this it is not operative anymore? >> that quote was taken probably a year and a half ago.

the campaign has been very consistent and what i laid out now on russia. donald trump and mike pence -- >> you have to stop. we're running short. >> talk about isis. again, on isis, in one of the debates, his policy that he laid out was that he was going to bomb out of isis. that was his big man to deal with it. >> how did hillary do with isis? >> we've got to go. i like having the three musketeers. >> which one am i? >> i love the love in this room. a big huge love fest. >> anaheim d.c. so i don't need to be party to the love fest. i don't do the loving. do i the hating. >> that's a perfect self-characterization. you said it, not us. it was great you have to. thank you all.

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welcome back with us. mike murphy, strategist offal many campaigns despite his youthful look. the former chief of the super

pac. >> today we'll tap into mike murphy's sense of how to run a campaign and talk to his big brain about what the two presidentials can do, should do in the remaining weeks. my sense is that their internal data is not too far from the public date. a down 5 nationally. no where near 45, 46 they need win. so they put on some new ads. what are their options to go to the boss and say we're behind. we need to change dynamic or we'll lose? >> they're in october. the good news is the media attention has never been hotter. the bad news is they're in pocket and the clock is ticking. the polling is interesting. they have to get trump to start running a campaign that brings new voters in. he is stuck in that cul-de-sac where he is losing college educated white people by too. and losing minorities. that's a chokehold.

the way to do that is to see him on the wrong track. in more politicians. i'll put you to work without tripping over your own shoe laces. >> they all say there is knob like trump. have you ever had a contract and say you've performed at best instintly. i need you to perform on the home stretch and they've done it? >> i've only had people in diskengt. i don't really worry. there's a staff running around trying to get him into position. and it is substantial but not enough. he has to get kneed there that helps him. and we haven't seen it yet. >> is there? is there any -- look. the world is different now.

right? different than it has been. and there's not that many days left. is this still time move the numbers? or is it overhang from everything that has happened too great? >> i think it is heavy baggage. >> the only shot they have. that's all they got. there's head winds. if they don't that, it will fold in on them and it will be a 3 to 5-point race. >> if you looked around at the map. given what the current polling is. what was the path that would you try on run? >> you know, i would try on fix the big stuff. that will fix the little things. if you are not working right nationally, you won't fix ohio or at least in the polling he's closest. he has to draw the states. i think colorado is out of reach for him. it has to be ohio, florida, north carolina as the real push. if he does the national stuff

right. all those things will get better. then maybe he pulls it out to the inside straight. generally the fewer minority voters, the better chance he has. >> so my senses are going to every day. so you're up 5 nationally. the battleground states look good. she turns to the senior staff. guys, what can we do to be more aggressive? >> i think trump has proven the logo of the campaign should be trump's face. he takes bait like everyone i've never seen. i would provoke him every day for the rest the campaign. get silverman on a bus and just poke at him. let him pick surrogate fights to keep the trump crazy up. i would start sending dog whistles. you know, that tim kaine is a moderate to help them have somewhere to land. another point or two for her if she does it right.

if she doubles down on the elizabeth warren stuff which one half of the campaign will say base, base, base, she can scare them away. they are normally republican and don't like trump, need a reassurance to land with her. so surrogates and landing pad for more fiscally conservative voters. >> the clinton campaign is worried about millennial voters. the one place they look and say we are really underperforming with the group that barack obama performed extraordinarily well with. should they be as worried as they are? >> no. i think september about misleading polling candidate. a socket the normal gravity. the democrats start doing democratic things, republicans start doing republican things. they will get meant of

millennials. the message is more that she closes on. will it be welcoming or does she alienate voters? which are the independents who are more fiscally conservative? >> the losing side, they start to say, where is the reverend wright tape? where is the secret ledger from trump headquarters? >> it will change everything. >> so should trump senior staff be egging him on? who knows what julian assange would do. >> the trump campaign, in a perfect world, which i don't think we have, should be having at least some influence on trump. if they can fix that, that's 90% of the trouble. don't waste time on fantasy stuff or crazy. try to get trump to act like a change candidate without risk. that's the trap he keeps walking

into. >> including keeping it out of his head. >> never team candidate on debate day you don't want to hear. whatever do you, don't tell had joke. two alligators, a rabbi, in the debate, they go for the joke. so less clutter in trump's head. it is crazy enough by itself. more focus on change. i'll deliver the economy and i'm not a boogie monster. >> on the clinton side, we all know, barack obama, the great surrogate. michelle, great surrogate. two new surrogates. one old, one new. bill clinton, al gore. what do you do about bill clinton and his propensity for saying stuff that's problematic. >> i would park bill clinton in those metal bending states. they basically, blue collar white guys. with gore, they're selling gore as the ticket to millennials. i would say one thing

millennials are not that interested in is yesterday. so gore should be raising money. i don't think as he voter mover. >> he draws press attention. >> maybe. but they ought to have insult surrogates to tangle up trump and sending dog whistles to vote here's would normally be republican, that it is okay the land on hillary. you won't get a karl marx loving administration. >> thank you. coming up, more on trump's trip to the silver state today. right after this.

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she is such an msnbc road warrior, sometimes you think she is a mad max movie. joining us now, casy, we've been talking all guy the debate last night and the debate on sunday. let's talk about last night. the clinton campaign likes to say, we won this debate.

do they believe they won this debate on their terms? >> i don't know that they believe they won it. i'm pretty sure they think it doesn't matter that much in the long run. they did want tim kaine to go out and defend her and they do feel like he did that legitimately. i'm not sure they think the style always worked with you they got through it. there was no major gaffe problem. all is fine. >> we talked last night amongst ourselves. are they as confident that they'll win as the obama campaign was four years ago? do they look at the date and stay numbers aren't there to beat us? >> honestly, my sense is that they are not quite as confident as obama in 12. but they are not unconfident that she is in the place she needs to be. they feel like the fundamentals are where they need to be. they need to settle around 5% nationally for her to be in a strong place. the reality is things seem to be

going really well. they have some issues. i remember joe dhog in 2012. he was able to say, here are the people that already voted for us that the romney people believe will vote republican. it is not the case. and i don't their clinton people making that kind of adjustment. >> we talked about whether trump, this is such a must-win sunday night. he must win or he is pretty. doomed. >> he's been pretty. doomed many times. >> i think it is a consensus. do they feel happy about going into st. louis? into that format? town hall? >> it is a tricky format. we've never seen a female candidate in this kind of a format. i think she has gotten a lot of practice in this format throughout the campaign intentionally. this is what they did early on when they put her in the small group formats in iowa. yesterday she was doing a town hall event with chelsea clinton. he is not as used to it.

it hurts him. i am interested to see what trump is like in a physically small space. that's one thing that we never see him in those settings. he is always on stage hanld podium with people that he is interacting with. they have to grapple with that as much as the policy questions and dealing with voters. >> she is still fundraising, probably for a couple more weeks. do we expect more policy speeches from her? or are we in the phase, she'll do more fundraising and rallies? >> it seems like this is debate prep plus raising money. >> and they're compatible activities. >> she is manning on west coast swing, we know. i'm interested to see how they'll balance those two things. yes. fundraising evenings, prep during the debate and then, it has in many ways felt like we keep waiting for her to ramp you. waiting for her to ramp up and

it never quite happens. it seems like we'll only get three weeks of it. >> it seems like one thing that is really wild card variable is the gender dynamics of the two of them. able to walk out to the podium and get in each other's space. not between a man and a woman. donald trump is a big guy. how do you think that might play out? >> well, they've been a little tight lipped about how they're mocking up these debates. we know the last one, they did it perceived how it would be set up. i talked to john podesta last night. i think they are thinking a lot about it. i was watching her and she stayed seated. she's this hasn't. when she takes a question she'll stand up and walk around and talk to the voter. that was her habit.

this was yesterday. the days are so long. she stayed seated. i wondered if that was practice for the upcoming debate. >> is she these days seem to be performing well? >> i would say so. i was with her on the campaign trail on monday and she kind of, we did more events than typically we have in the campaign day. she seemed to present strongly. >> when we come back, donald trump walks into a first grade classroom and you won't believe what happens next. ccine to a child in need. ♪ thks to customers like you, walgreens "get a shot. give a shot." program has helped provide 15 million vaccines through the un foundation. it's that easy to make a difference. ♪ walgreens. at the corner of happy and healthy.

>> that was donald j. donald trump, billionaire, visiting first graders at the international christian academy in vegas. you can visit our website right

now for more analysis of the debate and maybe of that visit which is incredible. thanks for watching. we'll be back here same bat time, same bat channel tomorrow. coming up, "hardball" with chris matthews. pencive. let's play "hardball." an interesting challenge to decide who won a political debate. if you accept the challenge as i have, you'd we are do it straight. don't pretend to be a judge if you're not willing to step responsibility of judging. last night i called for pence right off the bat. he acted like a grown-up. kaine seemed overrun. it was as if kaine couldn't stand hearing anything said well about donald trump and