now for more analysis of the debate and maybe of that visit which is incredible. thanks for watching. we'll be back here same bat time, same bat channel tomorrow. coming up, "hardball" with chris matthews. pencive. let's play "hardball." an interesting challenge to decide who won a political debate. if you accept the challenge as i have, you'd we are do it straight. don't pretend to be a judge if you're not willing to step responsibility of judging. last night i called for pence right off the bat. he acted like a grown-up. kaine seemed overrun. it was as if kaine couldn't stand hearing anything said well about donald trump and couldn't

stand hearing anything said bad about hillary clinton. pence was sol if i had often mislethaling. kaine was forever trying to get his point in. sometimes successfully but not impressively. if you think this is how i look at them generally, you couldn't be more job myself job isn't to say high preferred on the issues. it is to say who i thought did well and advance his position during it. after trump's bad week last week, the big question is whether pence' strong performance was enough to reverse it toward clinton. before the face-off sunday night. so they have a few days to do it. will trump be able to exploit to get it back in his direction? throughout last night, he tried hold him accountable for everything donald trump has said and done over the course of the campaign. but pence delivered an unwaverly performance side stepping the attacks while sticking to his talking points. as "the new york times" noted,

pence dodged, deflected and demurred, it seems, all the fires mr. trump has set in the past year could not be doused in a single night. that's good writing. and as "time" magazine pointed out eto som observers, it was a sign the indiana governor's debate strategy was also designed to protect his own political future in the event of a trump loss. trump didn't hesitate to praise pence at a rally this afternoon, citing it as an example of guess had a? donald trump's judgment. this is trump on trump. sort of. >> mike pence did an incredible job and i'm getting a lot of credit. that's my first so-called choice. that was my first hire, as we would say in las vegas. i would argue that mike had the single most decisive victory in the history of vice presidential debates. i believe that. and last night america got to

look first hand at my judgment. and that was judgment. >> katy, you're an expert on trump's ego. instead of saying i have a great running mate. he says, well, that goes to show that i'm a great man and i know how to pick them. your thoughts about trump and his reaction to last night's strong performance, i believe, by mike pence. >> reporter: you're right. did he take credit for pence saying he should get credit because he picked pence as his running mate. it was reminiscent of trump taking credit for a number things on the campaign trail. also reminiscent of donald trump talking about himself for 30 minutes while he was supposed to be introducing mike pence as his running mate. officially, also the tweets where congratulated himself on predicting things like terror attacks. both in orlando and when he

talked about the noew york bombings. donald trump will never say did he a poor job on anything or that he should improve. that's not something he's done in this campaign. i don't believe it is anything he's really done during his business career. so you won't have him come out and say mike pence excelled in areas that i need on improve on. the reality is that pence did, where governor pence was calm, donald trump was erratic during his debate. where pence was able to deflect. donald trump was easily baited by hillary clinton. where pence was able to turn the conversation into more favorable territory. pivot, if you will, spin the conversation. start talking about a different sun entirely than he was asked. that's not something donald trump was able to do during his first debate. looking forward, it will be interesting to find out how and if he takes his running mates's performance to heart and adjusts

for his next debate on sunday. >> that's the question we'll get to. will this be an opportunity for trump to exploit his running mate? also to learn it from. it seemed to me, i don't want to knock kaine. but kaine was acting more like trump. he was the one jumping in and out and interrupting. >> you're right. what i think the rnc was trying on capitalize on, how many times tim kaine interrupted pence. it is like the i'm rubber and you're glue strategy. every time donald trump is knocked for something, donald trump or his campaign or the republican party seems to turn it around and then insult the opponent with that same criticism and throw it at the opponent. in this case they had reason to do so when it came to tim kaine. did he repeatedly interrupt mike

pence. donald trump, however, repeatedly interrupted hillary clinton in the first debate. these vice presidential debates, while interesting to us, don't matter so much to the viewer or the voter at home. they're very much voting for the top of the ticket. they have large presences. the idea that one way or the other, how the v.p. reacted, behaved, or went off on policy discussions. that's not going on factor a voter. a the reality is governor pence looked get on that stage last night ask many are saying he was auditioning for 2020 to run on his own ticket for degrees 2020. whereas tim kaine was auditioning to be vp in 2020. >> well, that's an opinion. i don't agree with it. i think that 40 million people -- >> some people were saying it.

that's what i heard. >> that's an opinion. let me tell you my opinion. when 40 million people or so watch a television program, they form an opinion with the ticket. i remember years ago voting for humphrey because i liked musky. if republicans are feeling uneasy about trump, which many should be, they may say i think this guy pence is solid. i feel better voting for trump now. i think it makes a difference. when you're talking about an audience of 40 or 50 million people. we don't know the number yet. that's a lot of people paying attention. all it means is a couple percent of the million watching and it changes things. we only get about 10 million a night on cable. when you have one of these debates, it blossoms to 40 or 80. and people who never show up for political shows never show up. i'm got go argue with you, katy tur. in terms of this campaign

season, there is a bloc of people that just don't like either candidate. and are they going to see either tim kaine or governor mike pence as a way to enable them to vote for the top of the ticket? this is about enthusiasm. can donald trump turn out more people than hillary clinton can? right now, his base is white men without a college degree. he needs to find a way to feel women. he needs to find a way to feel moderate republicans. remember, governor pence is a very conservative christian who has been on the very conservative side of the abortion politics in the past. that does not necessarily feel many women in this country. in terms moderates, governor pence is not a moderate either. it could do something to help him gain the conservatives. i'm not sure it will get those moderates and women which is

what he needs right now. >> i want to bring the other guys in. here's my last point. among newt gingrich and juliani, they have nine wives among the three of them. they need more conservative christian or traditional person coming in saying you're okay. the other surrogates are not helping trump in the heartland. that's my thinking. rudolph giuliani is not helping in the heartland. a more traditional, rural thinking about religion and human behavior to back him up. he is not getting the right surrogates out there. in his harshest attack last night, tim kaine invoked the name of ronald reagan in an effort to page trump as too dangerous for commander in chief. let's watch this very sharp strike. >> ronald reagan said something very interesting about nuclear proliferation in the 1980s. he said the problem with nuclear proliferation, is that some fool

or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. and i think that's who governor pence's running mate is. >> come on, senator, that was even beneath and you hillary clinton. that's pretty low. >> that's even beneath you. thank you, ron reagan for coming on. we also have steve cortes. surrogate for the trump campaign. i want to talk with ron. both of you and mix it up. last night and then next sunday. i'm looking forward to st. louis, meet me in st. louis as judy garland said. next sunday night. will trump learn and exploit the strong performance of mike pence or not? >> no. i don't think he will learn. i think donald trump is donald trump and you always get donald trump. i don't think, if he was going to learnering would have done so by now. he's been doing this for quite some time, running for president and he hasn't bothered to learn anything about anything. so apparently he doesn't think

he needs to learn anything and i don't think he will by next week. >> do you think that was too strong a shot or too low a shot for tim kaine to say the guy, your dad, when he was talking about getting ahold of a nuclear button now has a face, and that was donald trump? do you think that was too personal to say he is a nut case with a chance to blow up the world? >> maniac might have been a little over the top but basically he was correct. i'm quite sure my father would be appalled by the donald trump candidacy. in case that was where you were going. >> i'm always going there. it's amazing how progressives are lining up at the altar of ronald reagan this year in the strangest kind of way. >> let me bring this steven. your thoughts about last night and next sunday. i want to know how the leads if one presidential debate. katy just said it is the presidential debates that matter. >> i grew up, my formative years

wr the 1980s and i'm a political nerd. most of my bud ois their locker at school, they would have joe montana or pam anderson or some other fetching girl. i had a picture of your dad on my locker. >> i'm not sure you needed to admit that, steve. >> i just did. on national television. is donald trump ronald reagan? no. there will never be another ronald reagan, another winston churchill. however, are the scenarios similar? i would argue vociferously they are right now, to the late 1970s. back then we had slow growth, an america that was lost in the world. we had a dangerous world. a crisis of confidence. weighed malaise, self-described at that time by the then president jimmy carter. i think we have a very similar scenario right now. and we have another outsider. we have donald trump who is saying, i am ready to smash the

political class. i'm toward smash the crony capitalist system that has been constructed in washington zpees the people are rallying to that cry. so i think it is working so far. and it will continue to work into november. the macro issues of prosperity and security are on our side. >> that's not working. that's not the message of the news every night or the indicates that. bits machado. it is ball his social life. he has not been able to escape who he is. i agree with you. there is a force for change. but donald trump is bigger than the discussion we should be having about change versus the way things are. that's not what trump is talking about. he is talking about machado and miss universe.

>> it's a fair point. part of having a maverick and a competition, it is mostly an attribute but it does come with challenges. it is a two-edged sword. >> he hired mike pence. that matters. he showed the american people, if you're worried, and it is okay to worry. it is natural to worry that a nonpolitician couple of handle the oval office? >> let me go back to ron. last night i remembered alfred newman. every time cain had a shot, everything, the answer from pence was, what? me worr it is like alfred e. newman. he acted like it didn't happen or i don't have to worry about it. he was the king of deflection last night. >> i guess it is useful to him.

i don't know what else he would have done. some of the things donald trump has said over the course of the election are indefensible. so there was no defending these things. and i think mike pence was thinking ahead to his career. and you notice even when he would defend donald trump, he would do it without, for the most part, mentioning donald trump's name. there was no full throated defense. it was if he didn't want any videotape to exist when he was talking about donald trump. i think he has a feeling a if you years from now when he wants to come back and take another run at it. he doesn't want donald trump's stench all over him. >> that's what i thought. what was the safer move for your guy mike pence to defend trump or attack hillary? the obvious answer, the safest thing is to attack hillary. one more shot at her won't hurt her much but it certainly help the guy taking shot. you're laughing because you know it's true. >> i'm not laughing and it's not

true. what happened is tim kaine showed up with a laundry list -- >> were they true? >> a couple were. >> which one was not true? just a minute. i'll give you a minute. what did tim kaine say that was not true? >> i'll tell you one and this matters to me as the son of an immigrant and a latino. he said, they keep saying that donald trump is a racist. and that is the sign -- >> did he say that last night? >> the sign of an intellectually failing campaign. >> i don't think so. >> he said that donald trump said mexicans are all rapists and murderers. that's ridiculous. are there some illegal immigrants who are? are there dangerous illegal immigrants? absolutely. and they should be gone yesterday. there are people suffering and dying because of that policiful are most mexicans? of course not.

latinos are a treasure to this country as are in general. tim kaine had a laundry list and said i dare to you defend one through ten. and pence said i will defend broad principles. >> ron, you can do it too. everybody, do this now. take google. the search engine. and look up two words. right? mexicans and rapists. and see if the word trump doesn't show up as well. just betting it will. that's all i have to say. it will and you're wrong. it will show up. he's the one to tax rapists to mexicans. nobody in history has ever done it. he did it and you know it. thank you. you have a great tan. i'll to have hear about where you've went. coming up, democrats are optimistic. this is having a huge impact on five or six states in the

senate. we'll talk about it. new hampshire, two solid candidates. we'll have their careers changed by this presidential election. kelly ayotte. not a bad republican. a hawk though. both popular. you're a smart saver. you find ways to stretch your dollar. so why not compare your medicare part d plan with other options? call or go online now and see how aetna medicare rx saver

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