solar, et cetera. but we need to much more than wind and solar. and you look at our miners. hillary clinton wants to put all the miners out of business. there is a thing called clean coal. coal will last for 1,000 years in this country. now we have natural gas and so many other things because of technology, we have unbelievable, we have found over the last seven years, we have found tremendous wealth right under our feet. so good. especially when you have 20 trillion in debt. i will bring our energy companies back. they'll be able to compete. they'll make money. they'll pay off our national debt. they'll pay off our tremendous budget deficits which are tremendous. but we are putting our energy companies out of business. we have to bring back our workers. you take a look at what's happening to steel and the cost of steel. and china dumping vast amounts of steel all over the united states.

which is essentially killing our steelworkers and our steel companies. we have to guard our energy companies. we have to make it possible. the epa is so restrictive they are putting our energy companies out of business. and all you have to do is go to a great place like west virginia or places like ohio which is phenomenal or places like pennsylvania and you see what they're doing to the people, miners and others in the energy business. it's a disgrace. >> your time is up. thank you. >> it's an absolute disgrace. >> secretary clinton, two minutes. >> well, that was very interesting. first of all, china is illegally dumping steel in the united states and donald trump is buying it to build his buildings. putting steelworkers and american steel plants out of business. that's something that i fought against as a senator and that i would have a trade prosecutor to make sure that we don't get taken advantage of by china on

steel or anything else. you know because it sounds like you're in the business or you're aware of people in the business. you know that we are now for the first time ever energy independent. we are not dependent upon the middle east. but the middle east still controls a lot of the prices. so the price of oil has been way down. and that has had a damaging effect on a lot of the oil companies, right? we are, however, producing a lot of natural gas with, which serves as a bridge to more renewable fuels. i think that's an important transition. we've got to remain energy independent. it gives us much more power and freedom than to be worried about what goes on in the middle east. we have enough worries over there without having to worry about that. so i have a comprehensive energy policy, but it really does include fighting climate change because i think that is a serious problem. and i support moving toward more

clean renewable energy as quickly as we can. because i think we can be the 21st century clean energy super power. and create millions of new jobs and businesses. but i also want to be sure that we don't leave people behind. that's why i'm the only candidate from the very beginning of this campaign who had a plan to help us revitalize goal country because those coal miners and their fathers and gands fathers they dug that coal out. a lot of them lost their lives. they were injured but they turned the lights on and powered their factories. i don't want to walk away from them. the price of coal is down worldwide. we have to look at this comprehensively. go to hillary clinton.com and read my entire policy. >> we've sneaked in one more question. and it comes from carl becker.

good evening. my question to both of you is, regardless of the current rhetoric, would either of you name one positive thing that you respect in one another? >> mr. trump, would you like to go first? >> well, i certainly will. because i think that's a very fair and important question. look, i respect his children. his children are incredibly able and devoted and i think that says a lot about donald. i don't agree with nearly anything else he says or does. but i do respect that. and i think that is something that as a mother and a grandmother is very important to me. so i believe that this election has become in part so -- so

conflict oriented, so intense because there's a lot at stake. this is not an ordinary time and this is not an ordinary election. we are going to be choosing a president who will set policy for not just four or eight years, but because of some of the important decisions we have to make here at loam and around the world, from the supreme court to energy and so much else, and so there is a lot at stake. it's one of the most conscious conventional elections that we've had. and that's why i've tried to put forth specific policies and plans trying to get it off the personal and put it on to what it is i want to do as president. that's why i hope people will check on that for themselves so that they can see that yes, i've spent 30 years, actually maybe a little more working to help kids and families. and i want to take all that experience to the white house

and do that every single day. >> mr. trump. >> well, i consider her statement about my children to be a very nice compliment. i don't know if it was meant to be a compliment but it is a great -- i'm very proud of my children. and they've done a wonderful job and they've been wonderful, wonderful kids. so i consider that a compliment. i will say this about hillary. she doesn't quit. she doesn't give up. i respect that. i tell it like it is. she's a fighter. i disagree with much of what she's fighting for. i do disagree with her judgment in many cases. but she does fight hard and she doesn't quit and she doesn't give up. i consider that be a very good trait. >> thanks to both of you. >> want to thank both the candidates. want to thank the university here. this concludes the town hall meeting. our thanks to the committee, washington university and to everybody who watched.

>> tune in on october 19th for the final presidential debate that will take place at the university of nevada, las vegas, good night, everyone. >> just over 93 minutes, and there at the end, the firsthand shake between the two the candidates. there was pointedly no handshake at the start. the aforementioned trump children. hillary clinton goes over to meet with members of the crowd. donald trump and his wife melania. another one of those events where grading the conversation we just saw really more like two conversations, almost requires a dual set of books. >> there was interestingly for a debate, and this is not as --

this is a more rare occurrence than you would think, but there was actual policy news made. there was news made in this debate. donald trump implicitly almost explicitly confirmed that he has not paid federal taxes. that that large business deduction we saw declared in those three-pages of tax returns from the '90s that were published by "the new york times" a couple weekends ago, he basically confirmed that ta deduction was a way he avoided paying taxes. donald trump essentially confirmed that his proposed ban on muslims entering the united states has been rescinded, had a testy exchange with moderators over that but said it's been replaced by a different policy. donald trump also said in one of the most provocative comments of the evening, he said that if he was president, he would jail his political opponent. he would put hillary clinton in jail. that is the sort of thing that we usually decry in other

countries in an authoritarian countries. he both stated that and then joked about it in the debate this evening. and i think in terms of political news, the biggest news probably tonight was donald trump being very icy when asked about his running mate, mike pence over the last 72 hours, there has been a lot of serious discussion whether or not mike pence might be considering getting off the ticket. tonight, martha raddatz pressed donald trump on his differences, trump and pence differences on the issue of syria. donald trumily responded. he and i haven't spoken and we disagree. no warmth and that has raised a lot of political eyebrows tonight. >> just saw a moment between daughters chelsea and ivanka. chris matthews was watching all of it with us in st. louis. your assessment?

>> i think in terms of the division of spoils here it, wasn't like the first two debates. the first presidential and the vice presidential debate. there's not the clear shutout victory like we saw in those debates with hillary clinton winning the first and mike pence for the second. this was much more closely contested. i do think it was kind of depressing. i think we've reached the point in this campaign where all the candidates can do is repeat what they've said before. i've seen theses in congressional races. it's all old stuff. it's basically a lot of sniping back and forth. cheap shots from both sides i must say, both sides. kind of a bicker sons, almost a domestic dispute. it didn't seem to have anything revel laer to or illuminating or inspiring. it had no inspiration. nothing until the very end when hillary clinton said something i thought very appropriate about donald trump's children. because they do impress you when you meet them. but i thought it was even better what he said about her. i thought that was a character salute.

when you say someone's a fighter, and you're donald trump, that means good person. strong person. winner. i think that meant something. it's too bad the handshake came at the end, not the beginning tonight. i don't think it was a great night for american politics at all. >> chuck todd? >> i want to echo that. this was not a good night for american politics. that we know. it was interesting if you want to i think brian, you laid this out well. if you want to talk about the debate in isolation, donald trump was a lot better than he was the first night. he looked like he did actually prepare. i think you don't want to -- he still didn't watch himself on mute. that is clear. i think some of that, i think his physical lurking is something that is something that is going to not wear. >> standing right behind her while she was speaking. > al gore ran into the same problems with george w. bush.

it's unneving to people. so in isolation, you know, this was -- i'm with chris. i thought hillary clinton was -- she just felt like she was rattled a little bit, i think by the spectacle before. i don't know if she was rattled or if they decided let him, he's lighting himself on fire on this. let him go. but she almost let him go so much she found herself having to respond to him a lot and getting to the point where she was in command and control of that first debate. in some ways he was in command and control of this debate. >> i started hearing from folks in her cheering section when she didn't jump in on the khan exchange where he said if i were president, khan would still be alive. her folks, people in her corner were surprised she didn't defend herself against that is charge. that was such a terrible stretch. the trump team is elated with his performance and feel like the prep they did between their dismal first debate and debacle that unfolded around 4:00 p.m. on friday took. this was the prepared trump.

this was the trump. they had one mission after the first debate to, teach their man to pivot. in their view, that was successful. >> this is the best trump you'll ever see at a debate. boy did he create a problem. let's say you're pat toomey, marco rubio. paul ryan, mitcconnell. we know there's a lot of thought. he did not do any contrition on the remarks on the video. but here's what he did do. he fired up the trump base. he did -- i mean this is the steve ban non, this is what they've been dreaming about. somebody to yell at her, say all of these things and throw bill clinton's accusers. so he did all that. they're going to love it. you have a pat toomey who needs the trump base to show up and he needs those suburban philadelphia voters who i think not a one of them is going to be feeling better about donald trump today than they did yesterday. >> almost like he abandoned that. the trump base will be elated that he prosecuted the clintons'

crimes from the '90s. >> which will have no effect other than exciting the base. it will make him feel good. it will make them feel good. they will get all of this. >> they will declare victory. >> bubble reaffirmation. >> on their twitter feed. this puts the rest of the party in the box. if toomey walks away, these people will go with pitchforks and light these republicans on fire proverbially if for some reason they bail on trump. so he -- >> you're saying this doesn't stop him from losing the election. but it does stop some republicans from getting off. >> it could. >> does it change the conference call of republican lawmakers tomorrow? >> i think it complicates paul ryan's life like never before. >> what about, you touched on the visual memes. trump walked like a man just short of his fitbit step total for the day. >> it was my favorite tweet. >> i didn't see that. >> said he probably got his 10,000 steps.

>> yeah. and the looming. > i think the interesting thing was the tactical perhaps head fake they did. i had the feeling, and i said so before the debate began that trump was going to keep pounding her on the bill clinton thing and her cover-up of the bill clinton thing, her intimidation of the women who made the charges. none of that really developed. it was a shot across the bow in the beginning. i think it got her to keep her head down most of the debate. she was doing rope-a-dope. she was letting him make those charges throughout the debate. the one about the war and how that was the one that cost lives. i thought a couple of times she just said i'm not going to argue about the 30 some thousand e-mails. imagine they're in a laboratory somewhere destroying these e-mails. he played that almost like a monster movie that she's in there burning all this stuff with the latest acid methods. and then but she never came back on that. her strategy from bob barnett is don't react on benghazi.

i thought that was -- i don't know what the 600 warnings from chris -- 600? i think that may have been an overstatement. he never challenged. i think that's a bad tactical decision by them. the head fake worked i think for trump. >> we don't know, it may have been the strategy. i think you're right she let a lot of stuff go. she didn't engage in a lot of things. on two different occasions or more, she said everything he just said was wrong. a couple times go to my website to find out. that could have been her strategy from the outset regardless of the intimidation tactics. >> we should grade her the way we graded pence. a lot of us here tonight gave pence points for doing just that. i think chris did, too. it's a strategic decision to decide to have the presidential air about you. she made that decision and executed. >> she was just low key. >> and pence made the same decision and at least i gave him points for that. i think she should be held to

the same standard. just because she didn't dispute everything, half of what he said was not worth engaging in. i want to give her the same points i gave him for looking for presidential. >> she didn't need to change anything. you and i talked about this i think that night or the morning after. it all runs together. which is you know, pence may have woman the night but he would lose the next day. trump is going to have a very bad 48 hours because there is some easy stuff he walked into. you brought up the going ahead, you're right. i didn't do -- >> my taxes. >> i took advantage of that tax deduction. and there were other moments like saying hillary has hate in her heart. again, it's just. >> tremendous hate in her heart. tremendous hatred. >> it was -- so there's all these little things. >> who says that. >> when you put it together in your quick 20-second reel tomorrow, it's going to be awful. and his physical -- he was an angry guy.

>> she was looking -- she walked to the edge of the stage. she's engaging, so physically with people asking questions. he took that opportunity to walk up behind her. she's got about a foot in height on her and stand behind her and loom over her shoulder. that was before he starred pacing around the room seething in the back of his chair. >> if i was on the street and someone that size was that close to me, i would quietly hit 911. he was scary standing behind her. if you're a woman, i think she's about my height, the physicality of it, we shouldn't overlook what that looks like to people on tv. his team feels like he prosecuted the case. the people that were involved in the prep feel like the prep took. for all of the mess that was the last 72 hours for him, they feel like if you take out the shenanigans beforehand and you take out all the lameos in the media say afterward, they feel like what happened on the stage >> i agree with them in that respect. okay, he did his best 90 minutes.

>> that's what i was trying to say. >> the problem is, the backdrop that it came in. >> yeah. >> and that's where this whole thing falls an part. >> this just handed to me from @mike pence -- congrats to my running mate donald trump on a big debate win. proud to stand with you as we make america great again. >> steve schmidt has politely watched in a satellite studio. and steve, what did you make of tonight? >> my first impression is how small the debate was. it lacked inspiration. it wasn't aspirational. you had two candidates, it was like a mon goose and a cobra in a steel cage match going at each other. and i think you look at secretary clinton and you see all of her vulnerabilities as a candidate and you start to think about the reality, how much -- what the likelihood is that if you had 14 other, i think that

ben carson would not have beaten her. i think there's one other that wouldn't have beaten her. most every other candidate on the stage i think would be ahead in the race right now. what a missed opportunity for the republican party. i think it was interesting you could see the anger really the seething anger he has towards his running mate, mike pence. felt undefended by him obviously in the debate. and undefended by him over the last days of this news cycle with this story breaking. i think it deserves comment that the extraordinary spectre of a candidate for president of the united states essentially saying i will lock up my political opponent. this embrace of banana republicism that we saw at the first debate. >> steve, i've got a guest in st. louis who wants to take issue. kellyanne conway is with chris matthews and then we'll come right back to you.

>> not too soon. thank you. i've got kellyanne conway. in the news yourself. does donald trump and you speak for him, does he believe juanita broad rick was raped by bill clinton? >> he believes she deserves to heard and to be believed the way that hillary clinton said november of 2015, something retweeted tonight. all sexual assault victims deserve to be heard. >> that's a charge of rape. does donald trump believe it? >> you have to ask donald trump what he believes. you always want to ask me. but here's the thing. >> he brought her here tonight. >> that's right. at that press conference today, during debate prep, she very clearly said to the press, i nobody nbc news was there that is bill clinton raped her and hillary clinton attacked her. that's the key here. >> explain that. he didn't go into that. >> how does hillary clinton treat these women? even "the new york times" last week after they endorsed her for president admitted that hillary

clinton's tactics is always to blame and shame the woman. always trevictimize the victim. gennifer flowers and juanita broderick, paula jones. the last time i didn't sexually harass somebody i didn't pay them. >> that one's on the record. the paula jones case. is your campaign going to further illuminate the charges are and bring out evidence that they broderick has a case against bill clinton? are you going to bring out evidence that paula jones -- not paula jones but kathleen willy was right when she said she was groped in that white house closet. >> you just developed them for us. all i need to say is our campaign will be about what you saw on the stage tonight which is donald trump taking the case to hillary clinton she has been in there for decades. close to three decades, chris, and she's been fighting for women and fighting for health care. where are the results? why are over 12 million women in this country without health care

coverage and in poverty and growing over the last eight years? she needs to be held account. he held her to account for the e-mails, for the syrian refugee increase. he had held her toe account for allowing isis to be born and to grow, for her actual vote. >> what did he mean when he said she's a fighter and he respects that. >> he respects the fact she's resilient. >> he believes he's said she's a liar tonight. >> a majority of the americans think she's a liar, too. that puts him with the majority. >> it was a bad weekend with the tape coming out. how is the next week going to be different? how is this going to pivot tonight? it's sunday night. are we going to see continued aggressive attack by trump on her relation with bill clinton during his indiscretions? is that going to be partf the rest of this campaign? >> we've been trying to wage

this campaign on issues. >> will bill clinton and hillary clinton and the way they dealt with the charges from women on misbehavior be part of this campaign? >> when hillary clinton attacks him about women and he attacks her about one woman here and there, it's very important for him to defend himself and remind americans how she treated those women. the worst thing you can do to a woman claiming she's been a victim is try to blame and shame them. hire private investigators, call them looney tunes. our campaign is going to be about what it was always about. he's going to be in pennsylvania tomorrow talking about issues again. you heard a lot of issues tonight. you heard about e-mails, heard about iraq. >> let's talk about the gorilla in the room which is the tapes from "access hollywood." if you're in a jury, would you say that was relevant information for the american voter to get? should access who would have let that information out to the public. >> i'm a fully recovered attorney. when i sat in the jury room, in the courtroom often, the jury is instructed to take all of the

evidence together. i would tell the same people who listened to the tapes and i agree with melania trump. i thought the comments were disgusting and offensive. i discussed them privately with mr. trump. i would say what did he do about them? he apologized and he also reminded everybody that as he's traveled around this country, he's learned a lot from the american people and he's doing this for them. i'll tell you, for all those republicans who defected, that's up to them. however, i'm not willing to give the supreme court over to hillary clinton. >> i understand the ideological aspect. did you believe when he said it was idle locker room banter or was he recounseling his way of dealing with women including aggressive grabbing? that was a recounting confident way he dealt with women. did you believe that was a problem for him? >> i've always been a person, chris, who much was what people

do, not what they say. >> he talked about what he did. >> no, he said his locker room banter. >> you mean he was making it up. >> as somebody who knows him well and alone with him many times. he is very gracious. he's a gentleman. i've never experienced that conduct. i would talk to some of the members of congress out there whether he i was younger and prettier them rubbing up against girls sticking their tongues down women's throats. it was true. >> i've heard those accounts, or course. >> some are on the list of people who won't support donald trump because they ride around on a high horse. >> you don't believe. you thought he was just bsin' when he talked about how he would grab women? >> i've asked him if he was talking about his own personal experience. he said no, those are words. >> it was sort of matching wits with some other guy about women? >> that's the way he characterized it. i look at the full measure of everyone. you, him, me, donald trump. that's what we need to do with each other. i know him to be somebody has employed thousands and thousands women. >> let me ask you a question about bill clinton's behavior and your candidate's behavior.

what's relevant when you're running for president of the united states? it's head of state. you represent the country. is it relevant when he says privately, you know, locker room conversation. is it relevant what bill clinton did these charges by these women are accurate? >> let me make very clear about bill clinton and his conduct. the reasons some of the women involved in his past are here tonight. the reason we talk about it at all from my perspective is hillary's treatment of them. she's running for president. i've seen people saying bill clinton is not on the bal oo. >> do you think she tried to silence those women? >> i think she tried to silence some and definitely demeaned others. in the case of a couple, we were talking about paula jones and monica lewinsky 18 years ago on your show. hillary clinton blamed and shamed and the worst thing you can do to a victim. if you read "the new york times" piece last week it, laid out

clearly what the procedure always was. she and bet can i write shut these women down. talk to the men. it's terrible conduct. she's running for president. >> are you with the campaign till the bitter sneddon. >> you guys do a fact check before you run these screaming headlines. >> she resigned. i was making pancakes with my kids. obviously i've been in debate prep. did you see his performance tonight. >> definitely stronger. >> it reminded me of his performance at the nbc commander in chief town hall forum. same thing again. >> you're with the campaign till the bitter end. >> i'm with the campaign till the bitter end unless -- i'm sitting here as his campaign manager. i'm sitting here with you in the debate hall where he performed beautifully. >> you're worried about more shoes dropping. >> i didn't say that. no, no, no. i've made a commitment. and i believe that he will be a much better president.

first of all, he won the debate tonight clearly. the reason you know he won is a, you watched or b everybody is going to talk about he was standing behind her and in her space. but -- >> okay. >> i -- i -- i am committed to not letting hillary clinton appoint the next three or four justices to the united states supreme court. i'm committed to not allowing her to make obamacare a bigger mess than it is, allow her to be commander in chief. the woman you saw out there i think is unfit to be president of the united states. let's do it. >> back to you guys. >> chris matthews with kellyanne conway at the site of the debate. chuck todd, you were watching that alongside me and we both slapped the table at the same time. >> we all did when she said unless. >> bitter end unless. >> chris asked kellyanne conway, the campaign manager, are you with him till the bitter end.

they don't know what else is out there. this is the reality they're all living with. >> that unless. >> we don't need to tiptoe around this. >> she is -- oo. >> they don't know. >> literally, you see the dot dot dots. >> kellyanne? >> put me back on. >> hey. >> we're back. >> kellyanne, it's rachel maddow in new york. we're confused. chris was asking you if you're with the campaign till the bitter end and you said yes, you said -- you seemed to indicate that you were with the campaign and then you said dramatically unless -- and then you let that tail off.