which more exciting for you? >> pick 'em. >> i'm looking forward to britney more than the debate. sionara. coming up "hardball" with chris matthews. >> last saloon in the desert. let's play "hardball." good evening i'm chris matthews out at unlv in las vegas. the third and final presidential debate here tomorrow night loom as donald trump's last best opportunity with three weeks o-to-go to the election to reverse his downward momentum. today president obama addressed trump's most explosive charge of the week that the election this november will be rigged in clinton's favor. here is the president. >> that is both irresponsible,

and by the way, doesn't really show the kind of leadership and toughness that you'd want out of a president. you start whining before the game's even over? if whenever things are going badly for you, and you lose, you start blaming somebody else? then you don't have what it takes to be in this job. there is no serious person out there who would suggest somehow that you could even rig america's elections. and so i'd invite mr. trump to stop whining and go try to make his case to get votes. >> according to a new real clear politics polling average the debates so far appear to have helped clinton clinton and hurt donald trump. they were tied before the first debate but clinton's margin over trump grew steadily through the second debate. clinton holds a seven-point lead with 46% to trump's 39%, an

amp average of all the polls. there's mounting evidence trump intends to come out swinging in irthat final showdown. he's alleging based on fbi documents released yesterday that the state department tried to prevent one of clinton's emails about benghazi being classified in a quid pro quo with the fbi. both agencies deny the charge but trump called it a coverup like watergate and called for patrick kennedy, the undersecretary for management to be fired. >> the state department was trying to cover up hillary's crime of sending classified information on a server has enemies could easily access. the fbi documents showed that patrick kennedy made the request for altering classification, as part of a very, very serious quid pro quo. not allowed to do it. this is a felony corruption. this is a bigger event than

watergate, and they practically refused to cover it. today i'm calling for him to be fired. >> we covered it last night and covering it tonight. the trump campaign is also foreshadowing potentially new attacks on clinton over benghazi inviting pat smith, whose son was killed in the 2012 attack to sit in the debates. molly ball joining me and robert costa, not political reporter with "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst and howard fineman at "the huffington post" and msnbc political analyst. tomorrow night i said it's the kitchen sink night. i think he'll throw whatever he has, the last chance to speak to 80 million people. >> speaking of trump advisers today debate prep is all about aggression. trump will come out and throw everything he's got at secretary clinton, personal, professional, political. it's all going to come out. >> how big will the issue of the email of the fact there was this discussion between the undersecretary of state and an

fbi agent over how to grade an email which related to benghazi? >> at his speech in colorado springs it was at the top of his remarks. it was scripted so behind the scenes steve bannon bringing it to the top of its list. >> you can't bring a prompter to the debate. >> when donald trump is on the talking points can he deliver attacks effectively and hillary clinton will face tough questions about this tomorrow night as she should, but he gets sidetracked easily. she got under his skin memorably at the first debate and it is not always easy for him to stay focused on the things his advisers would like him to stay on. debris with bob that trump can't believe he open that second debate handily. they want him to take the debate with everything he's got. >> i was thinking he knows if he doesn't win the third debate clearly triumphantly he's got problems. why not focus on what he knows

to be the gold, i would say it's the email. that's where hillary has to play complicated defense, deny anything went wrong and has to say no, i smells. >> well he's caught the bureaucracy fighting with itself here which is important for the other side. the importance of the benghazi and email stouffery is not the issues themselves but trump's larger and largest and most successful theme which is that washington is hopelessly corrupt. you may not like me, by i'm the outsider, and if it's a binary choice between hillary clinton and the outsider, and you want change, i'm the only guy who can do it. you may not like it but i'm the only guy who can do it. that's really his strongest argument. >> if you're advising hillary you say don't play bureaucratic defense. don't get into who the undersecretary is. act like you don't know the guy's name, don't get into whether the fbi is right or wrong or the state department because you'll look like you're

defending d.c. washington wur crassy you're one of this em. >> far be it for any to advise any candidate much less hillary clinton. >> speculate then, don't advise. >> i think it is a tricky issue. i talked to so many voters about hillary clinton and it's not that they don't agree with her on policy necessarily, it's not that they don't dislike donald trump, but they look at her and they see not just someone who is implicated in the system for 30 years but a politician pursuing personal interests at the expense of public interests, and someone whose motives they don't trust, someone who when she opens her mouth they don't believe what she's saying and that's why this is such an effective case against her. >> that is the thing about these emails, they're kind of this weird greek chorus in the background showing a different, showing what the public believes, which is that there are two hillary clintons. there's the somewhat worthy public hillary clinton with the policy issues you may agree with, and then there's the ultrapolitical hillary clinton behind the scenes, that's what

ho those emails play into. >> the fbi documents released yesterday show an unnamed fbi employee described a conversation between patrick kennedy of the state department and brian macaulley of the fbi as a quid pro quo. kennedy called for a favor but mccally pressed kennedy to allow the fbi to put more agents in iraq. kennedy sfland he wanted a classification of an email about benghazi not upgraded to secret. there was no contingency by the request and no collusion between agencies. anyway patrick kennedy also said in his statement today the two matters were not linked, no quid pro quo or bargaining. furthermore the state department says the alleged teal never happened. the former agent said there was quid pro quo. trump's got that to play with. >> the question for trump he can only have so many headlines coming out of tomorrow night. if he gets dragged into the allegations from the women, clinton's ready on all of that front but is he ready to

prosecute the case or not on the emails and the fbi and the way this was all investigated. is he ready for that or is he going to be distracted? >> i think also trump has to stop this from being all about him. he has to turn the focus on to hillary clinton. >> you say he's going to be aggressive. but we're not sure how narrow that aggression will be. at depression has to have a focus if it's going to land and be the story come out of the debate. >> can't talk about bill clinton, bounces back to him. >> you look at the three deba debates, the first one was all trump on the defensive completely, and pumpling himself. the second debate trump was more aggressive overall but as robert says not really focussed and one reason he didn't win the debate but his followers think he did is that he showed that style. i think robert's right. if he has to go in specifically on something, this could be it. >> chris wallace will be good.

some of them it's been uneven but i think he'll be very aware and will have learned from the moderators this year. if trump says we're going to have a rigged election come next month, i'm not tell him how do this but how are they going to rig this? you can't throw that out and force trump to say how it's going to be rigged. >> wallace said he's not going to fact check. >> that's not a fact check, it just says give me the information. >> you are if' a moderator and someone saying the election will be rigged and the evidence of voter fraud is so small and miniscule, are you going to articulate that on stage? >> i know how trump's going to answer that. he's already said how he would, are you kidding me? philadelphia, cleveland, he's going to say that, all innuendo and say it's illegal immigrants and say it's the media. those three evils will "rig" the election. >> the pennsylvania state race in 1993, can he point to a

particular case saying that proves it? >> i think chris wallace not to tell him how to do his business he should ask for a specific or two and see if donald trump can answer. >> trump has not had any tough questions on this completely ridiculous claim that he's making. >> does it make chicago sexy? that's what everybody does. >> it's about grievance and telling people they're getting screwed and also about him personally refusing to acknowledge he's losing. >> one problem like philadelphia 85% or the other guy, for hillary. >> because it's rigged obviously. >> sarcasm doesn't work on television. >> i'm being sarcastic. >> having the president of the united states in the rose garden essentially tweaking the candidate. >> you're whipin inwhining. >> that was an extraordinary moment. >> is trump going to come back at obama saying stop saying i'm whining? >> every report i get out of trump's tower and inner circle he's going to go out there and wherever that line is he's going

over it. >> he has paul ryan on his side on the email. >> he's not on his side gener generally. is trump going to articulate anything for the party? >> he might. some painted a grim portrait of what the country would look like if hillary clinton is elected president. watch this grim portrait. >> their international donors control her every move. if we let crooked hillary's cartel, and just remember this, run this government, history will record that 2017 was the year that america lost, truly lost its independence, truly lost its independence. and by the way, this is our final shot, folks. in four years old it's over. you're never going to be able to win. you're never going to be able to win. it's tilting, going to be a one-party system. this is your final shot. >> so we're zimbabwe tomorrow morning.

>> i was going to say venezuela. >> we become zimbabwe apparently. this is something that trump supporters feel to their bones. you talk to those people, going to those rallies, they really do believe that the apocalypse is imminent and it will be the end of the world if they don't win this election. >> what do they see coming? >> visually, is there an actual landscape, scorched? it's a combination of a liberal supreme court and maybe reeducation camps for conservatives and trump supporters. >> its know not a landscape it's a hellscape. listening to trump he says the media is cluding with the democratic and republican party, they're an international corporation running the whole global political system. it is beyond the normal right/reft republican/democrat dynamic. >> the concern is even if trump goes away which i don't believe he will if he loses he's going to leave a legacy of having pulled the whole political spectrum over to the right, and exposed the alt right to the

mainstream of the country. >> maybe hillary clinton will have this thing from annie "the sun will come up tomorrow" because it's the bleakest thing i've heard. thank you, robert costa, molly ball and howard peinman. coming up, me listenia trump defends her husband. we'll show the comparison between melania and hillary over the years in defending their husbands. i think melania is going to help a little bit. tomorrow night's debate is donald trump's last chance, best chance to get back in the race. we know it's going to be fireworks on that debate stage. how ugly could it get. will trump come at clinton with everything he's got you betcha. and the creator of doonsebuy gives us his take on trump and clinton. my election diary on the eve of the third and final presidential debate for 2016. tune in for our coverage tomorrow night at 7:00 eastern and at 8:00 eastern i'll join

brian williams and rachel maddow for a preview. hillary clinton and donald trump face off on the debate stage at 9:00 eastern. at 10:30 full debate coverage and analysis. we'll be here all night. that's coming up tomorrow right here on msnbc. this is "hardball" the place for politics. i'm about to start the nature's bounty hair, skin and nails challenge to help with lustrous hair, vibrant skin and healthy nails. so in 30 days, my future self will thank me. thank you. wait, i become a model?!? no. whose cellphone is that? sorry. sorry. sorry about that vent blowing your hair. start the hair, skin & nails challenge today and notice a difference or your money back. nature's bounty.

nevada, let's check the scoreboard. new poll hillary clinton surged to a seven-point lead in nevada. with gary johnson still down at 7%. in the previous monmouth poll taken before the debate first debate, trump led clinton by two poen points. new poll from texas has trump leading by three points. it's trump 41, clinton 38. johnson at 4, and lots of

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as you can see from the tape, the cameras were not on. it was only a mike, and i wonder if they even knew that the mike was on, because they were kind of a boy talk, and he was lead on, like egged on from the host to say dirty and bad stuff. >> you feel the host billy bush started egging him on? >> yes, yes. >> anyway welcome back to "hardball" live from las vegas. melania trump says her husband was "egged on" in the 0005 recording and beliefs her husband it was locker room talk and went on to blame her husband's opposition.

>> i believe my husband. this was all organized from the opposition and with the details they have, did they ever check the background of these women? they don't have any facts. >> mrs. trump's defense of her husband sounds similar many think to another political spouse whose husband faced accusations about his private behavior. watch this interesting comparison. >> they want damage why now, after so many years why three weeks before the election? this is part of the continuing political campaign against my husband. >> this is the media, it was nbc, it was "access hollywood," it was left wing media. >> it's this vast right wing conspiracy conspiring against my

husband since the day announced for president. >> he's kind. he's a gentleman. >> he is kind. he is friendly. >> i believe my husband. >> i'm not only here because i love and believe my husband. i'm also here because i love and believe in my country. >> it's backlash on the media the way they treated him. >> this is deliberately designed to sensationalize charges against my husband, because everything else they tried has failed. the defenses are very similar. >> they are quite frankly and look, i think the clinton campaign has really not wanted to engage on this at all. i think if you put the question to them, they immediately want

to say well off the record and they push back that there's a stiffening in response to that, and it's a place they don't want to go. >> i feel he's not into the political conversation we're in all the time. she's a regular person. i just i don't know about you but i will start with you and go to the same question. inevitably i get criticism from people on the hard left how come you're not tougher on the private stuff? the same people that said move on when clinton got into trouble. the same exact people said this is great, focus on this. focus on this. who said why are you talking about a guy's private life. is anybody even steven about this thing, anybody you meet? >> i mean, look, i think it's a difficult -- >> ever come across the person the same standard for democrats and republicans.

is that rhetorical. in terms of misbehavior and private life. >> all's fair in love and politics? >> they can brave any way they want, i don't know. i'm thinking about it. howie, what do you think about this thing about melania? i think it's like chicken soup, it can't hurt. she's a sympathetic likeable figure and not a politician. >> she is not a surrogate that the trump campaign deploys almost ever unlike ivanka trump who will be appearing publicly tomorrow morning for the summit which will be interesting to watch. melania trump, donald trump's wife, there is a sense that why not put her out there.

the story had been simmering away, if you will, it will h taken a backward comparison to other news hillary clinton's emails about the wikileaks releases, et cetera, why not put her out there when this was hot and heavy if you will, the day that melania trump issued that public apology in a statement not on camera. >> you know why. >> it's strategy, sure. >> the second best time is tomorrow morning. it's getting tense out there. >> i get what you're saying and this is astory that melania trump is, what's the word, sort of clinging to her husband's line on this. embracing what her husband is saying. of course, if this is a media conspiracy against him and they are presenting a united front as i think the campaign would want

them to. >> some people think she may have hurt herself. melania trump says she sometimes feels like she has two boys at home. let's listen and watch. >> he alluded to it as locker room talk, is that what you feel? >> it's kind of two teenage boys, actually they should behave better, right? >> he was 59. >> correct. and sometimes i said i have two boys at home. i have my young son, and i have my husband. so, but i know how some men talk and that's how i saw it. >> you think that was scripted? >> i think there have been a lot of women who have told pollsters that i think what they said

they'd sympathize with that and this is how men talk in private. that's what a lot of people told us in our nbc news/"wall street journal" polling. that's probably something that there are probably a lot of women in america who can relate to the feeling. >> some of this stuff is beyond locker room. one of the trump's accusers, former "people" writer natasha stoynoff says "women are talking about this and they need to. we cannot be silent anymore. i didn't tell my story for politics. i told it for women." "people" reports six colleagues of hers and close friends can corroborate the story of her being attacked by trump. confiding to the friends and co-workers about the attack shortly after it occurred. nbc news has not verified the accounts and donald trump vehemently denied this and all other allegations of sexual misconduct. howie that's a way to judge if something happened, a person who experiences something the victim of it, if you will, shared that information at the time it

occurred rather than wait until a political moment to bring it out. >> two points to make on this. one is that as you know, trump himself his campaign denied all of the allegations, the five people who had the accounts corroborated to them at the time they happened by stoynoff and another later who ran into melania trump after the incident happened. that same cnn interview you run with melania trump, trump is asked about that moment running into this writer on the street, melania trump says it never happened. who could believe her? she made it up. "people" magazine is saying now we have not just one but two people who have vivid details who remember down to the shoes melania trump was wearing that moment when they did, in fact, interact, memorable to them according to "people" because melania trump at the time was a celebrity. it is putting into stark contrast what trump and his family are saying versus what this one woman is saying. >> someone in the news irve

knows what they look like can meet people in that fashion and not remember it as well as somebody who covered them. i could imagine, it's possible people don't remember it an encounter like that but we're not in court. thank you howie and kacie. up next, tomorrow night may be donald trump's last best chance to turn his struggling campaign around. what can we expect to see on the debate stage in las vegas in the "hardball" roundtable will join us next. this is "hardball," the place for politics. hi my name is tom. i'm raph. my name is anne. i'm one of the real live attorneys you can talk to through legalzoom. don't let unanswered legal questions hold you up, because we're here, we're here, and we've got your back. legalzoom. legal help is here.

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i'm milissa rehberger. judge is likely to prove a $10 billion settlement over the emissions cheating scandal. the teas more like summer than autumn. record-breaking temperatures are expected to surge across the northeast until the middle of this week. president obama and the first lady are hosting the italian prime minister and his wife at the president's final state din per. back to "hardball." i blame hillary clinton personally for the death of my son. personally. >> wow. talk about of course the mother of somebody killed in the benghazi incident, it was a

passionate pat smith during the republican convention blaming hillary clinton personally for her son's death. tomorrow night should be donald trump's personal fwes fguest fo debate and brought malik obama, endorsed the republican nominee back in july he's for obama his half brother. hillary clinton invited meg whitman to come tonight. we'll have her on at some point tomorrow night. we're joined by democratic u.s. congresswoman dina titus ran in this district, a clinton supporter no surprise and political analyst and msnbc john ralston our contributor here and writes locally here and former rnc chairman and msnbc man about the country michael steele. congresswoman let me ask you about this question, hillary clinton i think she'll be on defense tomorrow but she may come out and needle trump people think on the rigged election thing because he doesn't have

much evidence. >> well i don't think she -- >> are we going to have a clean election? >> we are and you heard republican chastise donald trump for saying it's rigged. if you undermine our election process that's the end of democracy. >> why do you think he's doing it? >> because if you can't win by playing by the rules you say the rules are fake. >> this is hedging his bet so he can blame it on the system? >> that's exactly right. look at the poll numbers across the country here in nevada clinton is up seven points the handwriting is on the wall. >> you're saying he's smart to do this? >> i don't think he's smart to do anything he's been doing. >> you're making it sound like the numbers match up. i think it's depressing his vote. are people more likely to vote when their candidate says i'm going to lose? >> i don't think he cares but i think his people are going to vote no matter what and i think they're going to vote -- >> i agree with you on that, like to have ten votes each. >> they'll vote to show the election is not rigged and win it for their man. that's the trump mentality.

>> during his press conference with the prime minister of italy, president obama warned donald trump that the peaceful transition of power should always supersede politics. let's watch president obama. >> if he got the most votes, then it would be my expectation of hillary clinton to operate gracious concession speech and pledge to work with him in order to make sure that the american people benefit from an effective government. and it would be my job to welcome mr. trump regardless of what he said about me or my differences with him on my opinions, and escort him over to the capitol in which there would be a peaceful transfer of power. that's what americans do. that's why americans are already great. >> if you had to go to a boxing match tomorrow night with secretary clinton although it's male/female, be careful about boxing metaphor, go after on

open borders talking to the brazilians for money that day, on the email thing, apparently some conversation that doesn't look too pretty between state and the fbi about whether they're going to downgrade some email about benghazi, doesn't look too good or rigged elections? what would do you? >> i'd lead with the email. i'd give a left hook on the open borders, and i'd do the upper cut on everything else, and that's pretty much the strategy. donald trump has, if he stays in the game, he has weapons that he can deploy against hillary tomorrow night. there's no doubt about that, but so does she and the greatest weapon she has is getting under his skin. and once she does that, his game plan goes out the window. >> she doesn't touch him on bill, on his behavior. >> no. >> she won't open that door. >> it punches back at bill. >> the issue for her is dishonesty question, right, and

trump's numbers on dishonesty are higher than hers. >> marginally. >> that's why i think he uses the emails because that goes directly to that and he can pivot off that to all kinds of other issues including the quid pro quo, that you referred to. i think if he uses that, if he can stay disciplined which is like it's going to snow here today, then he'd have -- >> congresswoman, how does hillary clinton defend the conduct of the state department, which she led for four years and the conduct of the fbi in this sort of meeting they had without looking like part of the washington problem? starts playing defense on the system, he wins. >> both of them have said that wasn't true and she said that her campaign -- >> the fbi agents still saying quid pro quo. i don't know where is he now. >> she doesn't have to talk about those emails. she's just got to change the subject and talk about him. and i believe that's what she'll -- >> you believe he'll let her do that? >> he's getting good advice from people like y'all for a long time and he could pivot, he

could turn and be presidential. he's not going to be any of those things. it's too late. he's running out of time. the donald trump that you see is the real donald trump. >> who is going to win out here? >> oh, hillary clinton is going to win here. >> i noticed that your numbers -- [ cheers and applause ] jon, i hear your numbers here same as the national, seven points for clinton. >> the last two polls showed her up pi about six points. he's starting to slide. he was even, and was ahead for a little while. >> what he's hurt him, the women stuff? >> that plus the inevitable coalescing of the vote here. nevadans are notoriously late deciders and polling here is terrible, undercounted the minority vote which is luge for clinton. i think she'll win by five or ten points. >> what does open borders mean to you? hillary clinton used the phrase they dug it out because of wikileaks, said it to a group of businesspeople i'm for open borders and private/public whatever. i'll stick with the open

borders. >> i don't think she meant literally open borders. you have to have borders to be a country. i think she meant more cooperation around the globe. she's the face that has the experience -- >> is that what open borders means? >> it may be a poor choice of words. >> what's open borders means? >> if you are for a full-blown amnesty and that you have a policy in place that mitigates the kind of scrutiny that donald trump and others have been talking about. i don't think people when they hear those two words think that yes she's secretary of state. >> i'm for open borders, in a debate over immigration? >> i wouldn't take that position in comprehensive immigration reform. >> i want a deal, ended fight over this. i want it off the table for the next 30 years. deal with it fairly progressively and don't pass any law you don't intend to enforce. don't pass another b.s. law like the one they did --

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. welcome back to "hardball" live from las vegas for tomorrow night's debate. back with the roundtable. unlv right now. [ cheers and applause ] michael still me something i don't know. >> the lesleeper issue is abouto bubble, voter fraud and veritas look at the project video, a group of students who went in, young people went in and talked to some hillary clinton supporters poster type folks who sort of exposed some of the shenanigans they were engaged in. >> give me one. >> one was in terms of the

rallies paying people to go and protest start fights at the rally. they admitted to that on camera. it's a big issue. it's just beginning to break, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. >> yes, the guy you like that group. >> james o'keefe. >> i call them as i see them. >> something you didn't know nevada is the bellwether in this country. nevada has chosen every cycle except which one? >> goldwater. >> close though '76. every year. we voted for every winner. >> wow, you're very important then. >> yes, we are. >> you're the bellwether. tell me something i don't know. >> you're in the heart of district one and in this district we have the state's largest employer mgm and the smallest lots of taco trucks. in both cases a republican ceo and a very energized hispanic community are going for hillary clinton, so despite the conventional wisdom, what

happens here doesn't stay here. it goes to the white house. >> that ladies and gentlemen is a perfect example of wonderful high level flackery. thank you very much. thank you, congresswoman. jon value on it and michael steele, as always. when we return gary trudeau will come here, the guy who gave us doonesbury and talk about the collection. this is "hardball," the place for politics. and can you explain to me why you recommend synthetic over cedar? "super food"? is that a real thing? it's a great school, but is it the right the one for her? is this really any better than the one you got last year? if we consolidate suppliers what's the savings there? so should we go with the 467 horsepower? or is a 423 enough? good question. you ask a lot of good questions... i think we should move you into our new fund. ok. sure. but are you asking enough about how your wealth is managed? wealth management, at charles schwab. but the best place to start is in the forest.

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tune in tomorrow for the third and final presidential debate. 7:00 eastern a special he disof "hardball" tomorrow night from the campus of unlv. at 8:00 eastern i'll join brian williams and rachel maddow for a preview of the debate. hillary clinton and donald trump face off at 9:00 eastern, and then at 10:30, full debate coverage and analysis. we'll be into the night and that's all come up tomorrow here on msnbc. level of clean to it. 6x cleaning* my teeth are glowing. they are so white. 6x whitening*á i actually really like the 2 steps. step 1, cleans. step 2, whitens. every time i used this together, it felt like leaving the dentist office. crest hd. 6x cleaning*, 6x whiteningá* i would switch to crest hd over what i was using before. crest. healthy, beautiful smiles for life.

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now sir, because we are on a network television show i cannot allow you to endorse a candidate right now but i would like to ask you about your choice of snacks. could i do that? >> sure. >> all right, great. i have two choices for you here. would you care for an extra fiber nutrient bar, which traveled to more than 100 cars or this shriveled tangerine

covered in golden retriever hair filled with bile that i wouldn't leave alone with the woman i love? >> well i think i'll go with the fiber nutrient bar. >> anyway, we're back, that was president obama with i think steve colbert. it has been a bonanza for comedians and huge "saturday night live" creating master masterpieces of satire. >> number one, insurance companies can't deny you coverage because of a preexisting condition. number two, no lifetime limits, which is a big deal if you have serious health problems, and number three -- sorry. and number three, women can't be charged more than men for -- i thought i -- women can't be

charged more than men for health insurance, okay, and number four -- >> wrong! >> that's kate mckinnon and alec baldwin. doonesbury was a comic made out ahead of the kufb when it comes to sa tierizing trump he's been drawing trump for 29 years. he released a book of those cartoons this summer "yuge!" spelled with a y, 30 years of doon doo doonesbury on trump. he's be downtown business tycoon with his khaki raincoat on. he's like a -- did he create this thing or did you, this idea of trump? >> no, he arrived that way in new york. and he was representative of the big honking hubris of new york city in an extreme way. he was like a cartoon character -- he was like born a

toon. he was a natural toon right out of the box. i just took him as he was. >> what were his reactions over the years? were they ever biting? >> oh, yeah, he trashed me for -- initially he said he was flattered. >> of course. >> he totally should be flattered, which is what any politician would do. thereafter, he just trashed me regularly. >> to your face, on the phone? >> through the tabloids. the tabloids were the tweets of tea 80s. >> i was watching letterman when he was still on. he had joe theismann, maybe more recent than theismann. he wanted someone to stand there and catch the football. a couple passes. he caught it. it was trump. he would show up just to be the guy with no big intro or pizzazz. why did he come out at 11:00 at night to do that? >> for the attention. but most politicians, if we can call him that now, avoid that kind of stuff. unless they're doing what obama

does so skillfully. >> yeah. >> but to actually subject yourself to humiliation is something that they avoid at all costs. satire is a kind of social control. >> i watched that "frontline" documentary that said that the run trump is running is because he was keelhauled by president obama at the correspondents dinner. do you think he's moved by anger and satire of your business? >> i think so. but i would be surprised if that was the moment that triggered -- >> why is he running? he didn't think he'd win, did he? >> i think what probably pushed him was in 2001, the summer of 2011 when he was on his birther campaign, he was getting numbers in the high 30s. and i think he thought then, i can do this. they're the same numbers he's getting now. >> then he's sort of gone off his message. he had a message, trade, illegal

immigration, stupid wars. it added up to a perfect storm of resentment. >> i don't think the issues have ever been terribly important to him. >> but they are to voters. they're not voting for the big showoff from new york. they're voting for things they care about. >> but the people behind donald trump don't seem to understand is he doesn't love them back. >> you think? >> i think it's unrequited. >> like nixon. >> remember, his demographic are people who are alienated and they feel left behind by the economy. donald trump has a name for such people, losers. these aren't people that he would socialize -- he doesn't go into their kitchens and ask them what their problems are. he only likes losers in the aggregate. >> i don't get a chance to talk to someone like you on television much, a cultural figure. bob dylan. >> how wonderful, long overdue. >> he's so great that they gave it to somebody who really was

creative and spoke, to me, a couple decades of language. >> but you didn't understand him at first, right? he was so -- the lyrics were so strange and we spent a lot of time deconstructing lyrics. >> there was sentiment in that voice, though. i thought i heard something there. >> i thought it was the sound of the words. i thought it was about the music, about the poetry and he, in fact, said that like 30 years later in an interview. i just wanted to rhyme, man. >> he's got a group named after his song, he's got a magazine. jann wenner has the magazine. before we take a break, take a look at moments ago, president obama and the first lady were hosting a dinner. i guess we won't get to that. the last state dinner. coming down those stairs to greet the people with the 41-year-old prime minister of italy. wow. good for him. if you're told you have cancer,

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election diary tuesday october 18th, 2016. we stand tonight on the eve of one of the wildest political effe events of our lifetime. donald trump must win tomorrow night's debate at all costs. before the first debate he was one point behind secretary clinton. right now he's seven points behind and fading.

that means tomorrow it is kitchen sink night. he'll throw everything he has against clinton, everything. he will accuse the state department of trying to cover up a benghazi related e-mail of colluding with the media to rig the election. he'll do everything he can to attack her credibility. i recommend you watch. everyone has to vote in three weeks. this won't be the most satisfying election we have been through. it will make us feel better to make sure we've given trump a really good look. with all the talk about how a presidential candidate would act under pressure. tomorrow night we'll get a giant preview of coming attractions. we'll see trump being trump when he's seven points down and falling. the same goes differently for his rival. hillary clinton has a chance in this last debate to show what ernest hemingway called grace under pressure. the courage to face her accuser calmly, to hear him attack her at very close range, then look back at him and say to the country, i am the person to get you through this. if i can take this, i will take

the larger test events will put before me. it might be my serene confidence in facing down this guy. in any case, this is the big one. the last saloon before the desert, the final face-to-face, the last grand chance to sit, watch, listen and decide which of these two you trust to run the country. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> i invite mr. trump to stop whining and go and try to make his case to get votes. >> on the eve of the final presidential debate. >> i don't believe the polls anymore. >> donald trump still questioning the legitimacy of american democracy. >> they even want to try and rig the election at the polling booths where so many cities are corrupt. >> new backlash from the left and the right. >> there's no evidence behind any of this. >> if whenever things are going badly for you and you