so far, we've been waiting seven days, but that's not a new record. most new presidents get right to talking to reporters. in 1992, in fairness, bill clinton waited nine days before taking questions. still, donald trump has until thursday before he would cross into unchartered territory and we are keeping our calendar open. that's all for tonight. "with all due respect" begins right now. i'm mark halperin. >> and i'm john heilemann. and with all due respect to ben carson, you had one job. now, zero. r . on the show tonight, conflict about trump's conflicts of interest and the state of trump's pick for secretary of state. but first, more transitions for trump's transition team. former congressman mike rogers abruptly resigned from that team today, removing an establishment national security voice from key

deliberations about how trump there build his cabinet. rogers called his work with team trump a, quote, privilege, but reports suggest that warring factions, particularly those around donald trump's son-in-law, jared kushner, and former transition team head, chris christie, that has got this admin building adventure tough a slow and rocky start. legal paperwork installing mike pence as the new head of trump's transition team is delaying coordination with the white house and bloomberg is reporting that the departments of defense, justice, state, and homeland security, all pretty big departments, still haven't heard a peep from trumpland. today paul ryan was unanimously re-elected as speaker of the house, and went out of the way to support trump and defend his white house staff hire. mark, we're in a transitional moment, but let's start with the big picture question, how's the transition going? >> not as smoothly as it could. there are factions in trump tower. the decision to replace christie has had fallout that continues to fallout, but i've covered a lot of transitions.

there's always drama and, i think people are both overstating the drama and understating the extent to which happens. the proof will be in the pudding. he's got to be ready by january 20th. there's still plenty of time to do it. but the decision to put in christie and now remove him is having a lot of repercussions. >> they are utterly, at this moment, totally, completely, abjectly unprepared to take over running the government. and at this stage, yes, there's always infighting. that's all true. the fact that as bloomberg reports, that most of the major government agencies right now can't get their phone calls returned and the trump transition team has not yet signed the documentation that would allow them to begin to interface with those agencies, that they're going to be taking over in 66 days is a sign that they do not have their acts together at all. >> well, post-9/11, the expectations of how to staff the transition will be as much greater, as it should be. >> and they shouldn't be scrambling. but i'll just say, they do have time. and this is what happens when the country elects an outsider, they've got a bunch of people who have never done this before and they're still learning the

ropes. this needs to be watched closely. if they get further down the road and they still are not geerd up, it's going to be a problem. but there's still time to do it. >> i don't disagree. there is time to do it. and we will judge their state of preparedness and how well they handle the transition when they actually make the transition and he becomes president of the united states. but at this hour, they're not where they should be. and again, maybe a reflection of an outsider president. but when you have people wandering around the west wing when they went to visit president obama, ask welcoing, many of these jobs do we need to fill. that's a sign of clueness that even people who are not insiders should know. if you watch the west wing, you should know, you have to replace all those people. that's how it works. >> it's all potentially a problem and it's certainly troubling. but this is the kind of thing that shows once again that the press is obsessed about process when it comes to donald trump, when there's,, you know -- >> if hillary clinton was doing this, i would be obsessed with it, too. it has nothing to do with donald trump. if they were walking around the white house wondering, hey, how many of these jobs o do we have

to fill? i would criticize the clinton administration, just as much. >> i think we give them another week. every day we get a few more clues about what trump's administrations is going to look like and what won't look like. today, for instance, the major transition knew is something that won't happen. ben carson says he is not going to be part of the government. he had been mentioned a as a potential head of the department of health and human services, but we are told he took himself out of the running for that or any other job. conservative radio host laura ingraham is reportedly being considered for white house press secretary. one position that's being watched very closely now is secretary of state. two names are reportedly at the top of trump's list. the former u.n. ambassador, john bolton, and former new york mayor, rudy giuliani. both would be controversial and somewhat contention picks. john, what does it say if john is down to these two guys as his final picks and would it create more controversy that he doesn't need? >> we're going to talk in a little bit about harry reid and the banning controversy, again, which to me still overshadows

everything about all these choices. as bad as rudy giuliani or john bolton might be, depending on your point of view ideologically, neither are as poisoning as bolton. but what does it say about donald trump's foreign policy? what we heard from donald trump for an entire campaign is that he was not interventionist or a neocon. and rudy giuliani has no foreign policy experience and the notion that he will be a diplomat goes to everything we know about rudy giuliani's temperament. and john bolton is the ultimate neocon. and rudy giuliani has neoconnish tendencies, also. if one of those guys get the job, what does that say about what we all thought and what donald trump represented to be his posture about foreign policy as president? >> particularly ballton, who has a long-track record of being -- >> the most interventionist man on earth. >> rudy giuliani, even some of he has allies say he's not what he once was in terms of being prepared to do a job like this. i don't have any problem in the

abstract with picking someone who doesn't have foreign policy experience, warren christopher and others have done it, but it seems like a strange fit for giuliani, who seems not to want to be attorney general, and i'm not sure what other job they could get. and trump, you go back to the word loyalty. trump wants to reward the people who stuck with him. i think the big variable right now is senator sessions. his name has been floated for secretary of state, attorney general, and defense secretary. i suspect he'll get one of those three and then the question is, where do the remaining slots go. >> if you're talking about, giuliani, it's not the lack of formal foreign policy of diplomatic background that's troubl troub troubling, it's temperament. he's the least diplomatic person you know. at this moment, they both seem really weird. >> every day, we get further away from the election, there are so many questions that aren't answered. is trump going to be the

architect of his foreign policy? if he's not, and i don't think he will be, who will be? his national security have adviser, his secretary of state? we don't know. but that's why these personnel things are more important than ever. >> here's something we do know about donald trump's presidency. he will enter this white house with more potential conflicts of interest and less potential transparency than any recent president or any president in history. the trump organization says it's in the middle of transferring its management and business portfolio to trump's eldest children, don jr., ivanka, and eric. but the three trump heirs who were advisers on the campaign also have official positions on trump transition team, which alone is raising eye brous all over the place. cbs reported last night that trump is considering avenues to get security clearances for some of his family members. the transition team tells bloomberg that the cbs report is not true, but regardless, the potential overlap between trump's new administration policies and his family-run businesses are now sure to raise questions about conflicts of interest with every policy

decision the administration would make on things like corporate tax reform, tax breaks, and union disputes. so, mark, is there anything that trump can do, at least along the path he's currently going, to keep conflict of interest from being a dominant story line in his new term? >> well, we need to talk about the story lines and trying to do the right thing. there are certain things he can't do. he's not going to he race his family business. his kids are going to run a business and there's going to be conflicts. the gsa lease with the hotel on the old post office building. i think the biggest thing that concerns me here, because there must be transparency, there must be minimizing of conflict of interest, is donald trump's history, his hiring of lawyers and accountants who do not do their best to bend over backwards to avoid a conflict or impropriety. everything that was done, for instance, with the foundation. so i hope the lawyers who are looking at this now look at it not with an eye towards donald trump businessman, trying to minimize taxes, trying to cut corners at his foundation, i

hope they look at it with the absolutely premium on minimizing the appearance of conflict and actual conflict, but you'll never get rid of it all because of the nature of his holdings and his kid's work. >> well, you know, if this was not donald trump, we would say, he should put his -- all of his financial assets into a blind trust. >> but he knows he owns the hotel. >> well, yes, clearly, but he doesn't have -- the idea that the family is going to be running the business. putting aside the question of putting them on the transition team, which is ludicrous, ludicrous that they would have an official role in forming the government that's going to form the policies that affect the business that they are going to run, it's just ridiculous! >> well, to be clear, though -- >> why not apply the standard -- >> these are not businesses that are heavily involved in federal government decisions. >> involved enough. they're affected by corporate tax rates. >> you have to be realistic. he's not going to stop getting advice from his kids. they should decide to want to be involved -- and his son-in-law. do they want to be involved in the government or run a private business?

they should pick one and that would go a long way towards -- >> it would go a long way, but to me, i still don't see why it is we have to apply a different standard to trump and say, well, no, a blind trust is out of the question for trump because -- because, what? >> there's no way to have a blind trust, he knows he owns the hotels. >> he can take himself and his family out of running the operation. >> that's what i said, the family should -- do they want to be involved in the government or involved in the private sector? >> no double standards for donald trump. up next, president obama distances himself from democratic losses in this election cycle. we'll talk about that after this quick break. ugh. heartburn. sorry ma'am. no burning here.

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the election, of course, is over, but some democrats are not acting that way. since election night, the dnc and other hillary clinton allies have not eased up on their ruthless and sometimes personal attacks on donald trump. adding to the pile today was senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts sent a letter to the president-elect, accusing him of having too many, quote, wall street elites, industry insiders, and lobbyists on his transition team and potential cabinet list.

that's mild compared to what harry reid has done. his post-election statement called trump a, quote, sexual predator who lost the popular vote and fueled his campaign with bigotry and hate. reid was at it again today, took to the senate floor this afternoon, railing against trump's pick for the white house chief strategist, the steve bannon. >> if trump is serious about seeking unity, the first thing he should do is rescind his appointment to steve bannon. rescind it. don't do it. think about this. don't do it. as long as a champion of racial division is a step away from the oval office, it will be impossible to take trump's efforts to heal the nation seriously. so i say to donald trump, take responsibility. rise to the dignity of the office of president of the united states. stop hiding behind your twitter account and show america that racism, bullying, and bigotry have no place in the white house or in america. >> all right. so, john, are these kind of

attacks harping on the very things that democrats went after trump for during the election help to the democratic party, helpful to the country? >> look, forget about -- there are two different things. indiscriminate attacks that are all over the map in an unconcerted, unsound, unstrategic way, delivered that y,on't help the democratic cause. i rarely have, i think, almost never have i said the words "i agree with harry reid." i think the steve bannon appointment is outrageous and detrimental to the cause that trump has been espousing, that he wants unity in the country. steve bannon, you can take a range of opinions on the guy, they start with bad and divisive to much uglier than that. and i don't see how that appointment cannot be seen as poisonous. so when i heard harry reid, this speech today, on that point, i think, yeah, what else are democrats supposed to say about

that appointment? broadly, though, democrats are going to have to figure out how they want to attack trump and where they want to try to be seen as reasonable , and they haven't yet found that balance. >> i wonder what will happen as apredict, trump will reach out to democrats on certain issues and try to get them to work with him. right now, reid's departing, but very few have spoken out against the posture he's adopted. not basically offering up the option of working with the new president, and i get how upset they are and i get why they're upset and i agree the bannon thing at a minimum, at a minimum, needs to be explained, which they haven't done. but the scattershot approach here, of basically acting like we're in the midst of a campaign rather than on the doorstep of a new presidency, i don't think it's good for the country, and i don't think it's good for the democratic party. they should be a fiercely oppositional party on substance. and i thought elizabeth warren, great for her to speak out and say, you're too close to -- you say you don't want insiders -- >> you want to drain the swamp? the swamp is back. >> that's fantastic. are >> another bell went off, but

you've got to pick your fights. when you're a decimated party, you can't fight every battle. you've got to fight the ones that you're going to win. but not all of them. >> and the e-mail from "the washington post," not sure that's helping them much. no offense to "the washington post". >> president obama's reaction to the outcome of this election can be summed up in three words, "not my fault." in a press conference he had today in greece, obama was asked if donald trump's victory was a referendum on his presidency and whether drms underestimated the simmering anger from voters across this great country of ours. instead, obama blamed, quote, personalities and how campaigns are run, as well as the country's inevitable desire for change after a party has been in the white house for eight years >> a pretty healthy majority of the american people agree with my world view on a whole bunch of things. and i know that that begs the question, how is it that somebody who appears to have a very different world view just got elected? as i said, sometimes people just

feel as if we want to try something to see if we can shake things up. and that, i suspect, was a significant phenomenon. >> so this comes a day after obama took what appeared to be another veiled shot at hillary clinton's campaign, when he seemed to suggest that democrats struggled in places like iowa this year, because they didn't spend as much time on the ground back as they did when he was a candidate in 2008 and 2012. and for the second day in a row, president obama offered up some pretty positive and hopeful remarks about his successor, donald trump. a lot of democrats think he's normalizing trump and absolving himself of any blame in this debacle of an election. do you think he is risking or courting backlash among the members of his own party? >> i think the members of his own party, including some of his advisers, who have commented on this quietly, it's just a strange tact he's taking. i get he feels a responsibility to help the transition.

and i don't think he's normalized him, you know, excessively, given the situation. but what he did today to basically say, everybody likes me and my policies, and it's true, his approval rating is high, and basically saying, none of this was my fault, you have to look deeper at what's happened to the democratic party since he's been president. i don't think he can say this had nothing to do with him. >> it is the case that a lot of people in the democratic party now are saying that barack obama's in denial, that he's in denial about trump, that he's speaking too favorably of him, and that he's in denial about his role in the -- where the party is right now. and again, i think the point u' trying to make is, if you look at where the democratic party was when barack obama entered office and where it is today, it is a much worse place eight years later, and there's no doubt that his failure to build the party, to care about the party, to argue for the party, build himself up, to be interested in the party, his failure, and in many cases, abject rejection of that as the responsibility of the president, a lot of democrats are mad about that and they'll get madder as

we go forward. >> he built an obama party, he didn't build the democratic party. >> coming up, mega romney/ryan fund-raiser. spencer wick will be here on this set for some trump talk. stick with us for that. for adults with advanced non-small cell lung cancer

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manager of and he's the main manager for the speaker of the house. how do you feel about the republican president to be, donald trump. you were opposed to him for much of the campaign. how do you feel about him being president? >> i spent the last year trying to get a house re-elected, a majority for paul ryan, and to help in the senate. so most of my time was spent in the house and the senate. >> pretty good cycle. >> pretty good cycle for republicans. and we also now have the white house. so, i'm pretty excited for the republican party, more broadly, over the next few years. >> just in ynl, personally, are you excited about a trump prote prote presidency. >> i am. because i think that this agenda can get put on a president's desk who can sign it and we'll move a lot of that through. from that standpoint, i'm very excited. >> did you not agree with the things that mitt romney said

about donald trump when he said those things in march? >> i didn't support donald trump in the primary. i actually didn't get involved in the primary at all. i didn't pick ours. >> governor romney said some pretty harsh things about donald trump. did you agree with him or agree with him when he made that speech? >> he wrote that speech himself. there are parts i agreed with and parts i disagreed with. at this point, governor romney wants donald trump to be successful. he wants to support the office of the presidency. mitt spent, i don't know, a better part of last year trying to help people like paul ryan and rob portman. and so, tuesday night, a week ago, was actually a very good night for mitt romney. >> can i just ask you why? i'm just like a totally human question, right? romney's speech was really powerful. and it was an incredible indictment of trump as not just a person who espoused policies that mitt romney didn't agree, but as his character. his temperament. he said, he was totally ill equipped to be president of the united states.

totally not qualified, totally not temperamentally sound for it. so explain to me why how mitt romney has reconciled himself with the notion of donald trump. i know you know mitt romney pretty well. how does he get his head around -- >> how is that any dmpb from some of the peep that are now up for cabinet posts and what they said about donald trump when he was running in the primary. mitt romney gave his speech, i believe it was march in the primary. he gave a speech because he believed that perhaps someone else was better fit to be the nominee of the republican party. but that is no different than some of the things that other people, who are now up for cabinet posts, said about donald trump. >> that just makes the argument that those people are being hypocrites, too. he didn't say he thought someone would be better. he said that donald trump is uniquely, like barack obama has said all of last year, that mitt romney was uniquely unqualified and unsuited to be president of the united states. that's what he said. >> but now donald trump has won the election. and now we have to look forward. and moirm wants to donald trump to be successful. he made that clear when they spoke on the phone. >> how does the wider romney political family, donors,

political supporters feel about the coming trump era? >> well, many of them have embraced it. many of them were on the trump team early on. some had not joined the team during the election. but i suspect, far and wide, republicans will come together and support a donald trump presidency. i really believe that. >> you wanted to comment on your friend, harry reid? >> my friend? >> i say "my friend" in the way john mccain would say, "my friend." >> harry reid is in, my opinion, a -- how do i say this? a -- >> pretend you're from south boston. >> from south boston. or from nevada. look, harry reid is a has-been, political hack who wishes he were still relevant. it's not like he did a lot to change the outcome of this election. i actually think there was divisiveness going on in the democratic party that at some point, will get reported. but harry reid and elizabeth warren, both of those characters just posturing at this point. why don't they look at what

barack obama barack obama is saying, which is, let's give this guy a chance. we need the office of the presidency to be successful. harry reid doesn't want anyone to be successful, except for himself. >> i want to go back to mitt romney for a second. one of the other things you did spend a fair amount of time this year doing was to get mitt romney to run for president. >> i wish in the worst way mitt romney had been elected president. >> so do you think if mitt romney would have run, he would have beaten donald trump and won the republican nomination? >> i have no idea. but what i do know is donald trump was successful, not just in the primary, but in the general, at tapping into a movement. he called it a movement. i agree with him. there was a movement. i'm not sure anybody could have beaten donald trump in the primary, and certainly not the general. >> a follow up to this question. do you think if mitt had run and won, do you think he could have beaten hillary clinton in the way that donald trump did in the general election? >> had he been the nominee, i do, i believe he would have won. >> even though his appeal is so much different than trump's, not a populist guy at all.

>> yeah, hillary clinton didn't exactly appeal to a movement of people. >> ten seconds, when did you know trump was going to win? >> probably when you said he was going to win on tv, a year ago. >> oh, a year ago. spencer, thank you very much. coming up, bloomberg's jennifer jacobs has been dominating coverage of the trump transition. we'll get the benefits of her latest stuff right after this. if you're watching the program in washington, d.c., you can listen to the show on the radio, radio bloomberg 99.1 f.m. we will be right back. made plastics that make them lighter? the lubricants that improved fuel economy. even technology to make engines more efficient. what company does all this? exxonmobil, that's who. we're working on all these things to make cars better and use less fuel. helping you save money and reduce emissions. and you thought we just made the gas. energy lives here.

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you know, i don't know. i would serve, of course, at the pleasure of the president, if that's what he asked me to do, in any capacity that would be. and for right now, you know, i've been honored to have a front row seat in history. it has been an amazing experience, and it's been one that has been long and difficult

at times. and if the president-elect asked me to do something in his administration, that would be an honor, but i have no plans yet. >> that was former trump campaign manager, corey lewandowski, speaking to nbc's british partner, itv. there was a lot of news coming out of the trump transition team these days. and bloomberg's senior national political reporter, jennifer jacobs, has been tracking all of it. she joins me now from washington, d.c. jennifer, one of the things i love about having you on this program, whatever you know and whatever comes out of your mouth will be interesting. what do you know? >> we know there are some power struggles going on, now that trump is rising to power, when no one expected him to, just a week ago, everyone thought he was going to lose. but now that he is in power, there's a lot of shifting around, and the transition team is experiencing another shake up. we have been told that there's a purging going on of the chris christie loyalists. i'm told that that has something to do with an old grudge between

christie and trump's son-in-law, jared kushner, who has become a very influential voice within the campaign. we're hearing lots of different camps weighing in for who they would like to have for key posts. lots of people going in and out of trump tower. we've got some landing teams, as they call it, that are going to be launching in the next few days, and what those are are those interim teams that will go into the various federal agencies and start looking for reforms and preparing the agencies for the new trump mirp administration's priorities. >> obviously, rewarding something that's a factor in the names that are being talked about. do we know what else he's going for? is he going to please capitol hill, going for diversity, going for ideological excellence or intellectual excellence. what's he going for? >> i think the biggest factory is loyalty and trust. so far, the people's names who

have been thrown into the mix for these to be cabinet posts are all people who were with him in the campaign. steve mnuchin, who helped him raise money in the campaign is up for treasury, is what i'm being told. you've got wilbur ross, another fund-raiser. rudy giuliani, my understanding is he could the get whatever position he would like, but his heart's desire is to be secretary of state. you've got jeff sessions, who also was, you know, a key ally to trump during the campaign. it sounds like maybe he's leaning towards secretary of defense. but all of those positions, all of those people are people who are very loyal to trump, back when the republican establishment was not so loyal, when it was difficult for him to find friends. >> jennifer, so the steve bannon appointment, obviously, has caused a huge furor, in my view, justifiably so. he's taken a lot of heat, not just from democrats and the pundit class, but a lot of republicans who look at this and say, wow, this is a poisonous, divisive appointment. is there any chance that trump under pressure from a bipartisan

array of objectors would change his mind and actually rescind that appointment? >> no, at least i'm not hearing any rumblings of that from anyone within his inner circle. no, he likes steve bannon very much. he credits him for getting him to the position that he is in. and bannon has a real influence over trump. trump actually listens to him and trump respects his opinions. so, no, and if you ask key bannon allies, is this a guy a white nationalist or part of the alt-right, they actually say no. >> we talk about whether kellyanne conway will take a white house job or work from the house. we mentioned earlier in the show, laura ingraham talked about it, a potential press secretary, are there other women being talked about, for senior cabinet jobs that you've heard of? >> not that i've heard of so far, but i'm told that yes, he is looking at women and has hired the women for his trump organization and he values women's opinions and have always promoted them into leadership positions. so that will be no different, is what his aides are telling me. >> jennifer, go back to another

topic that we discussed earlier in the show, which is this conflict of interest thing. again, he's getting hit pretty hard for the notion of having his children both run the business and be on the transition team and all the questions around that, still haven't exposed his tax returns. how is that being heard, those complaints, how are those being heard in the trump world? >> yeah, and actually, they pushed back a little bit about it and say they haven't actually formally applied to have that top-secret clearance for the kids that a lot of people are talking about, that perhaps that question came from someone else lower down within the transition team. but, clearly, they, the -- trump values his children's opinions and if he could get them clearance, i'm sure he would, because he trusts very few people, because the kids are among the few people that he really does trust and he's willing to have an open conversation with. but trump has always said, he wants his kids to be close. he wants them to run the organization while he is in the

white house. but he still intends to remain very close to his children. >> jennifer, that's great. we could talk to you all day, but we have to get to a couple of people who were so wrong about this election, we have to ask them why. we normally think of them as very smart. mike murphy and bill carick, coming up. we'll be right back. (sfx: park rides, music and crowd sounds) oooh! when your pain reliever stops working,

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when we know the reality of this thing is trump has maybe a one in seven shot and i'm probably being generous. everybody he knows is voting for trump. and it's all anecdotal info. people coming up to him in handshake lines, my cousins in connecticut are voting for you. maybe i ought to go to connecticut. >> trump thinks they're expanding the map, doing what i want to do, going to all theese places. what the team is doing, i said, third in 65, we can try a drop kick from here. >> that is a clip of our next two guests discussing the odds, according to them, very long odds of a trump presidency on "the circus," our showtime documentary series produced in conjunction with bloomberg politics. now for a post-election follow-up with mike murphy in chicago and the brilliant democratic strategist, bill carrick in los angeles. now, guys, i'm going to start by saying, i got it wrong, too. i'm going to start the thing, i was wrong. i got it wrong, i got it wrong, i got it wrong. this is not just me blaming you guys for getting it wrong without accepting my measure of

responsibility. i got it wrong. having said that, mike, bill, starting with mike, why did you guys, why did you, so confident, for so long, there was no way trump would win, what did you get wrong. why were you wrong. >> that is the question, because i own it, too. i got it really wrong and i was so stunned election night when trump won, i think the only person who was more surprised than me was trump. president-elect trump, i'm learning to say it. here's what i think i missed, i saw a good op-ed by stu rottenberg, a noted political handicap that also got it wrong. we look at the polling numbers and the demographic makeup of the electorate and it was pretty clear. in fact, he did get at least 2 million fewer votes than hillary clinton. but where my blindside was, was i did not think he would do better with latinos. i assumed he would get historic numbers of african-american turnout in places like detroit and milwaukee, which she did not do, hillary clinton. and finally, i knew we'd do well with non-college-educated white working class folks, but i did

not know he would break the meter. i was looking at liucerne count, pennsylvania, wilkes-barre, he blew away reagan numbers there. i've never seen anything like it. and that kind of thing in places like there and the michael moore town in places like flint, wisconsin, was enough to give him a lead of 100,000 votes in those three states and pick the lock of the electoral college. he won fair and square and i missed that coming, because that has not been seen before and i learned a good lesson. >> bill, you get the chance now to explain yourself, please. >> well, i was -- i, too, was wrong. unfortunately, i relied too much on the news media for information. but the truth is, the polling was -- the polling was wrong in some fundamental ways. and we saw trump do extremely well with non-college-educated working people, but the mythical

college-educated suburban women disappeared and then nobody really caught the magnitude of the rural discontent with secretary clinton and the popularity of trump. and then one thing that is the obama coalition was not able to be replicated by the clinton campaign. there wasn't a level of turnout, and it didn't actually get the numbers that obama got with a number of key constituencies. >> bill, is the democratic party in as bad as shape as some people are saying now, and who are the current leaders besides barack obama in the democratic party? >> i think, clearly, the congressional leadership will be out front. obviously, this is a big deal for senator schumer, and he'll be a major player, because there'll be a lot going on in the senate, in terms of whether

trump's legislative agenda will succeed or not. but -- and we'll have a new chairman, who that is not clear. but it's going to take a while to dig out of this. there's going to be a lot of reflection, because every day, you find out something new, some new information, some new data, or something the campaign focused on or didn't focus on. fundamentally, though, the biggest mistake, strategically, was, is this a change election? or was this about trump, his temperament, style, disposition, personality, and it turned out to be, by a good ten-point mark, a serious change election. and i think a hell of a lot of people missed that. >> mike, if donald trump and his advisers want to not just succeed with the legislative agenda, but remake the electoral college map and kind of lock in some of the gains republicans have made, what could they do? >> oh, i think he's got to double down on what got him there, which is working class lunch pail economics. he is convinced the section of the middle class, the working

middle class, that has not had really a raise in real wages for a long time, that they should be upset and blow up washington. now he's got to keep that promise to the saginaw and bay county, michigans, of the world. that's going to be a heavy lift. that's where the power of his coalition is. interestingly, all of us political junkies who got this thing wrong are doing what we do, looking at county by county, actual election returns. trump underperformed in some republican suburbs. on the other hand, he massively overperformed in the rural areas, excerpts with and kind of these metal-bending towns. so he's going to have to find a way to keep that bond and deliver some things. >> mike, what do you think for -- we were talking about the way in which mitt romney condemned trump and now is welcoming him to the white house and wishing him well. for people like you, what do you think is the right course for republicans who didn't just criticize trump and didn't just say he couldn't win, but who said that he was temperamentally, intellectually, emotionally unfit for office.

what should republicans who are in that position previously, what should they do now? >> well, my first instinct as an anti-trump republican has been liquor. but once i moved beyond that, i believe the president deserves a shot to succeed. i am -- i have suspended -- i put on hiatus radio-free gop, because i want to see him rise to the office and do well. but i hope he understands that the campaign won, fair and square. his campaign. but there is a stain on his campaign that has divided the country for some of the things he's done. so he now has an opportunity to lift up the dialogue. he did a good job to have that election night. we need to see more of that and he needs to put thing back together, or he's going to be like lbj during vietnam or nixon during watergate with a million people marching against him. he has to rise to the occasion. >> let me go back to the topic at the top of the show, barack obama. just the raw numbers. the guy arrived in 2008 on historic victory. democratic control of the house, democratic control of the senate. he leaves with the party in

shambles, in utter disarray. to what extent is barack obama responsible for the current state of abject disarray, as i said, of the democratic party. and what responsibility does he bear? >> well, i think he -- and the other irony is, he now is at the height of his popularity. i think that there was a, there wasn't an effort for a long time, long before barack obama, to focus on legislative races on the democratic side. it wasn't as aggressive as it was among conservatives and republicans. and they are -- they both played a role in it. and then the other thing that's pretty clear, they got a jump on us in statehouses. sometimes it was candidate quality, sometimes it was campaign quality, whatever. we really have been getting clobbered in the governor's races. and we've got to fix bh o those. the legiativproblems, at the state level, and also the governor races. we've really got to focus. and we tend to be more of a

washington-oriented party, with a one-size-fits-all message and what not. we may have to figure out how to pa talk to people differently in different parts of the country in these campaigns, because we haven't been doing that. >> mike, i can't believe you suspended the radio show. what are you going to do instead? >> it's a podcast, just to be clear. >> radio show makes it sound more -- makes it sound more legitimate than it really is, let's be clear. it's a podcast. >> hey, it's one of the top republican podcasts ever. you're both invited on it. you should have come back. i have buried the radio transistor in the backyard because i want our president to succeed. but if he acts like he did during the campaign, then republicans should support him when he's right and oppose him when he's wrong. >> bill, do you want him to succeed? >> uh, you know, obviously, i do, in sort of a theoretical way, right? now, will i be disappointed -- will i be disappointed if he doesn't succeed? probably not.

and i think the -- i think mike hit it on the head. his success is going to be based on his behavior. can he modify his behavior in a radical way, that he can be reassuring to people, instead of somebody who's a leader of less than 50% of the voters? >> mike murphy and bill carrick, as wrong as you were, we're always happy to hear from you and we'll keep having you come back into the indefinite future. professor eddie glaude after this. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road.

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joining us now from down the road, princeton, new jersey, professor, eddie glaude, a professor of religion and african-american studies. the chair of the center for african-american studies at princeton university. eddie, thanks for coming back. so, lots of talk on this program and elsewhere about the democratic party and its current state. how would you describe the current state of the party?

and what does it have going for it at this point? >> well, it's in disarray. it's in disarray because they underestimated the significance of donald trump and his campaign and i think they took for granted a large number of folks who are out in the country, who are suffering. folks who are tired of business as usual. and so, you know, it's a crisis and in every moment of crisis, mark and john, there's an opportunity. and i think the opportunity presents itself for more progressive voices to come to the fore, to put forward an agenda that speaks to everyday ordinary working people and their dreams and aspirations. and to in some ways, revive the democratic party, and maybe not just so much revive it, but to reimagine it. so that it can speak to the most vulnerable, to those who are on the margins. so it's an opportunity amid

crisis, so it's,, you know -- this is what we have to do. >> eddie, we've discussed it now on a couple of occasions in this show, and i think you might have an interesting and unique perspective on it. barack obama, first african-american president of the united states, came into office, big majorities, senate, house, now leaves disarray. how much blame does barack obama blame for state of the democratic party? >> well, i think he -- i think a lot falls on his shoulders. and i'm pretty struck by, remember that amazing speech he gave at the congressional black caucus? >> yeah. >> where he put his entire legacy -- go out and vote. if you want to send me off, go out and vote. if you want to protect my legacy, go out and vote. and there was this kind of appeal so black voters, based upon our kind of uncritical loyalty to him, that he would transfer that loyalty to hillary clinton. well, that didn't play itself out in the way they expected. but i think he -- you remember, he didn't transfer his

apparatus, his operation to the dnc. i think alongside his failures, i think there's also a failure of the clinton campaign. remember, i've said over and over again that there was a kind of confusion among the clinton folk, where they wanted to kind of embrace the obama coalition at the same time that they wanted to embrace bill clinton's old strategy of triangulation, that they spent an inordinate amount of time trying to track bush republicans, while taking their base for granted. and i see what we -- i said and i've said it again, what we said is the chickens coming home to roast. so the short answer, he bears a lot of blame. the long answer, there's a lot of blame to spread around, though. >> donald trump picks steve bannon for white house job, doesn't require senate confirmation. a lot of complaints and criticism. and we all agree that donald trump isn't going to suddenly say, you guys don't like this, let me fire bannon. so what can productively be done for public policy, for setting

an example for children. what should people who are opposed to bannon, what can they do now short of getting him out of the job that would be the right thing to do? >> you know, that's a hard question, mark. i think to model for our children, we have to continue to oppose him. we can't normalize him. even though there's a recalcitra recalcitrantce on the part of donald trump whether it was a banker or a graduate, he is what he is. who is he? he's a guy who has a cozy relationship with the alt-right. and the alt-right is a rebranding of white supremacists. so we have to be clear about that. so what we have to do is understand that trust is not just simply given. healing doesn't just happen by simply pronouncing that healing needs to happen. that it is predicated upon

genuine mutuality, that building of trust. and there's no ground for it. and i think this is important, on the part of folks, right, what -- when you've asked the question in the other segment, do we want him to succeed? and i kept asking myself, succeed at what? succeed at deporting people? succeed at, you know, implementing a tax policy that's going to devastate the poor? succeed at what. so given what he said, i'm not rooting for him, at all. >> eddie glaude, i wish we had more time with you. i want to have a conversation with you. >> sorry. >> no, no, it's all our fault. next time you're on the show, we'll talk about dave chappelle. >> you got it. >> thanks for coming on. we'll talk to you soon and we'll be right back. company says theyy three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™, you'd get your whole car back.

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when you find something worth waiting for, we'll help you invest to protect it for the future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase, so you can. so what's the most surprising thing you've seen so far in the last 48 hours out of this whole trump transition drama? >> probably barack obama saying that he's got nothing to do with it. >> you know, a lot of weird stuff. a lot of weird stuff going on. >> giuliani for secretary of

state is surprising. >> i think that's the weirdest, by far. really weird. not good. until tomorrow, for mark and me, we say to you, sayonara. >> "hardball" with chris matthews is next. faulty tower? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. as barack obama landed in greece, in germany, for his final trip to europe as president of the united states, his successor continued making plans for the kind of commander in chief he will be. in greece, president obama warned about, quote, a crude form of nationalism, taking hold around the world. back home, "the new york times" reports that rudy giuliani is the leading contender to be the next secretary of state. according to the times, mr. giuliani appears to be lobbying