and enjoyable is working for this particular president. he frankly is incredibly smart and incredibly well prepared, very balanced and calm, and he's built extraordinary relationships with leaders around the world. . >> chris jansing, thanks for that. that ends my hour. chuck todd is next. >> is the trump tower essentially teaming rivals? figuring out trump's foreign policy while we still don't know what direction he plans to take us. plus, big news of misinformation. >> how misinformation is spreading faster than ever before. what's missing in michigan?

how democrats lost touch with a huge chunk of those voters. this is "mtp daily" and it starts now. >> good evening. welcome to snrks"mtp daily." in 63 days, donald trump will be sworn in as president. given that power, we still don't know what direction he'll take us. filling his cabinet is a study in contradictions. will we get some clarity or will his picks continue to confuse us? as they say in reality tv, you'll have to tune in to find out. but here's the latest float.

a source close to trump says he's considering mitt romney as secretary of state. it's either a giant peace offering to the establishment wing of the republican party or a twist to build intrigue around the pick. which is it? we don't know. it's always worth keeping track of where these scoops actually come from and where they are. it may be nothing more than just simply a head fake, to change subjects. but we'll find out soon enough. trump is also considering general michael flynn as his national security adviser. we told you yesterday how critically important that role is. but we should caution, nothing is a done deal inside this transition until trump publicly says it is. flynn himself is a study in contradictions. he's a registered democrat and that's where he began clashing with everyone around him. now he's a trump guy.

would it mean he would run a mission-centric and isis-focused foreign policy like you would expect from a lieutenant general? we don't know and likely won't know until trump announces more picks. for all we know, he might pick a john bolton at state and tom cotton in defense, two guys who come from the dick cheney school of policy. or maybe he does go with jeff sessions and bob corcoran to fill those roles, two guys who do vision a more pragmatic foreign policy. or he could continue to confuse us, like he usually does. and remember, when it comes to national security, he has tru trumpeted that idea, that he doesn't like people knowing what he's going to do, that it gives him an advantage, which could be what this is all about. but during the day, president obama had some not so subtle presidential advice for his successor. >> my hope is that he does not

simply take a real politic approach and suggest that if we just cut some deals with russia, even if it hurts people or even if it violates international norms or even if it leaves smaller countries vulnerable or creates long-term problems in regions like syria that we just do whatever is convenient at the time. >> and here's why national security adviser susan rice in an interview with my colleague chris jansing urging trump to rethink his willingness to work with syrian president assad. >> he's been slaughtering his own people with extreme brutality. most of his effort is not directed against isil, it's directed at the domestic opposition. and so for the united states to throw in our lot with assad or the russians absent a political transition, absent an understanding that our efforts

are actually focused on the terrorists rather than on the opposition doesn't make a great deal of sense, in my estimation. >> let's dig deeper into all of this. richard haas, who is on the council of foreign relations. he's also author of the coming boo "a world in disarray." mr. haas, always a pleasure to see you. >> thank you, mr. todd. >> let's start with, what do you feel like you know about the direction of donald trump's foreign policy? where is he taking us? look, we don't know the personnel yet. everybody thinks they know with general flynn, but that hasn't been announced. but from what either conversations you've had with people close to him, where do you feel like the direction is headed here? >> i actually come out where you came out which is we don't know. there is never a direct or 100% correlation between campaigning and governing. we're in the first ten days of transition. every single transition is messy, and as joe biden said yesterday, no administration is

ready on day one. so i know everyone is reading every tea leaf with extreme intensity. but i actually think it's time for taking a step back, for taking a deep breath. let's see the totality of the team. and then we have to remember the team is advisers. there is only one president, one commander in chief, and he gives direction more than he receives it. >> and look, the state and defense are sort of the flashy titles, but as we went through this yesterday, the national security adviser will tell us more than either state or defense. is that fair to say? >> i think it is. national security advisers have two critical roles. he has to really make the entire process work. i has to be the honest broker, the traffic cop. typically if you end up with different kinds of voices, it's essential they trust him and work with him rather than, say, through the media. and secondly, he's got to be a counselor, a private adviser to the president. but what's tricky, chuck, in this job is he can nefertiver a

the private adviser or the counselor to get in the way of the broker role. not many people historically have been able to get that balance right. >> another thing about general flynn, and i don't want to get into specifics on him, but he has the profile of a former military guy. you tell me, but i feel as if it's perhaps skocroft is the exception, not the rule here. but jeff jones struggled in this. do you think it's tougher for a higher ranking military officer to be in that role of national security adviser? >> i don't think it's the military background. as you mentioned, brent skokraw is seen as the gold standard. when he was the national security adviser, i was lucky enough to work for him. i think it's important that someone has government experience so someone has time in the state department or the intelligence community or the pentagon. it's very hard to come into this role without knowing really how government works. >> you know, it's interesting, senator jack reed, who is

probably the most important voice on the democratic side in national security and foreign policy in the u.s. senate these days. his office jumped the gun on a release, sort of talking about his reaction to general flynn, and he talked about his great background, but then at the same time, said, you know, he's got -- he was troubled by some of the rhetoric that general flynn used during the campaign and hopes that is just sort of an anomaly. is that going to be the general reaction from senator jack reed? he essentially said he looks forward to working with him, he praised his background, and if general flynn can't get along with jack reed, he's not going to be able to get along with anybody. >> fair enough, but one thing. this job doesn't have to get confirmed. this is a presidential appointment unlike secretary of state or secretary of defense. and more importantly, getting along with congress in the job is you have to get along with your colleagues. you have to pick a good staff, a capable staff, and again, you've

got to be someone who your colleagues are willing to work with rather than go around. and the president has to make it clear that this is the role he wants his national security adviser to play, and he won't brook any exceptions to that. what you really need is the right person in the job, but the president has to have his back every inch of the way. >> donald trump has said it time and again on the trail, and i actually think this is how he is trying to put together his foreign policy team, which is he wants to have confusion out there. what is the upside and what is the downside for sending mixed signals about your foreign policy philosophy? >> well, the only upside is probably that it keeps your adversaries a bit off balance, but the downsides are that you confuse the american public, you confuse your allies, because predictability and reliability are a corner of the realm for a great power such as the united states. i think it's one thing to say you want to have a process where

not everyone necessarily is working from the same page. the president would hear a wide range of views. i think that's actually healthy. a group thing can be really dangerous. but once a policy is selected, then the united states has to act in discipline and with discipline in what it does and what it says. >> all right. richard haas, i will leave it there. your counsel always important to our viewers, let alone anybody who does call you up and actually get it. good to see you, sir. >> ythanks, sir. katie tur has been covering the trump campaign since day one, and steve kornacki and my geek pal over here. katie, i'm going to start with you. you were on the phone working sources. jack reed's office jumped the gun, they admitted that and they

apologized for it. but why? why don't we have this announcement? it's surprising that this announcement hasn't been made yet. >> i don't know why we don't have this announcement because all sides pointed to general flynn as national security adviser. >> there's really no number two. >> no. he's the person we have had our eye on now for nine or ten days since we started having these conversations. so it is surprising that confirmation or that announcement has not come out yet. what that means, i don't know. but i was talking to an intelligence officer, a former intelligence officer, a few of them today, actually, but the one i talked to most recently, i asked him a little bit about flynn and i said, do you think he's qualified for that position? i got a hard no. i said, do you think he has the temperament for that position? i got a hard no. i said, do you think he has the strategic judgment for that position? i got a hard no. i'm getting that across the board pretty much for everybody willing to speak at least anonymously on this, because they don't feel like he has shown or proven himself to have

the ability to have the scope of judgment that that requires. >> i do think -- i've noted, particularly when you look at the role jerry kushner is playing, the role mike pence is playing, they are on the lookout for red flags. i feel like all the floating of the states, stop applying. very subtle, but hey, stop applying. and not naming flynn tells me they are looking for somebody else, but maybe the president-elect hasn't been satisfied. >> one thing we know is that all of these names, at least initially, and even as they broaden out a little bit, are names of people who donald trump has a comfort level with. it started with that tiny core group: giuliani, newt gingrich, those folks. mike flynn certainly in that category. he was somebody who was out there campaigning hard for trump -- >> when nobody else would. there is a loyalty. in trump's mind, he owes him.

>> trump was a pa erirpariah. he was out there drumming up against hillary clinton. trump probably feels like he owes him something. this might not be the right job, but maybe he'll place him in a different role. but he doesn't want to push him out yet. >> i was there. james jones on paper had this great resume and there was just no connectivity, there was no bonding between president obama and him, and they didn't see eye to eye, and eventually he went to national security advisers, even deputies. douglas mcdonough became a favorite of his, and he was a deputy under jones. it's important that the president and this national security adviser have this connection. >> and it's so easy with trump, obviously, that sort of inner circle you could call on who you were with you during the campaign who could then be part of your administration is so much smaller, so much tighter with trump. the giuliani thing is so interesting to me, too, because

it's that question of loyalty and how much he rewards him. because if loyalty is the standard, there is no one who is more loyal in this campaign than giuliani. the access hollywood tape comes out. giuliani doesn't flinch. >> he went out there for him when nobody else would. >> when kellyanne conley wouldn't. >> if this report is true, there is a debate here between giuliani and romney. on the question of loyalty, you couldn't be farther apart. >> but it does show the difference in world views that we're seeing. you're seeing a donald trump who says he wants to kick the blank out of isis but he also wants a smaller footprint overseas and he wants a relationship with russia. all those people he was talking to had conflicting signals on those three things. >> steve bannon was making calls to capitol hill trying to calm people down, knowing he was going to be a political firestorm, and he was trying to calm the waters, trying to reassure people. any evidence that general flynn

has been making similar calls? >> i haven't had any evidence that general flynn has done anything like that so far. that's not to say he isn't, i just haven't seen it. when you speak to general flynn, i haven't come across somebody in my reporting who believes he's good for that job. you notice mr. haas said one thing in particular, someone who doesn't go to the press. i've been hearing a lot of that with general flynn, that he doesn't go to the press in back channels. but again, donald trump is not -- he didn't win office by saying i'm going to put the same old folks in these jobs. >> and that's what makes to me the idea of mitt romney out there -- i don't think he owes the establishment anything, beth. he owes -- he actually owes his corps. if he goes the establishment way, that's what they voted

against. >> and who has a completely different view of russia. >> right, you can't get more polar opposite. >> you can't. but maybe donald trump is something of a grown-up and sees value of uniting a party that has been riveted apart by this campaign even though they ultimately won. we will pause there. coming up, we're going to talk democrats. how have they lost touch with a huge chunk of the country that used to be theirs and can they win these voters back? if they don't, our next guest won't be able to keep her job in 2018, so stay tuned. ♪ at walgreens, you're free- free to seize the savings on medicare part d. from one-dollar copays on select plans to rewards points on all prescriptions, it's easy to save big at walgreens. ♪ just stop by walgreens. ♪

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>> yesterday i formally wrote to my colleagues to ask to continue the honor of serving as house democratic leader. house democrats must be unified, strategic and unwavering. those same attributes served us well in 2006 when we won the house, and i'm hopeful -- i believe they will do so again. >> ouch. hark harkening back 10 years is a tough thing to pitch. there is a vote on november 30. it's still a possibility that pelosi remains in power. keep an eye on the congressional house caucus and the

congressional hispanic caucus. do they stay with her? if they don't, she might not have this thing wrapped up. democrats, winning back the industrial midwest.

michigan, michigan, michigan. they still haven't called the presidential race in michigan, actually. it was supposed to be clinton's big, blue firewall in the midwest. it was once known as the home of the reagan democrats. president obama won the county himself and the entire state twice. trump beat clinton in macomb county by 12 points. welcome to your swing voters. macomb is full of the types of voters that democrats have to win back if they want to win

democrats and if they want to win the house majority again. these are folks that are tough to stay in the middle class. they were looking for change when they voted for obama, and when they didn't get it, they chose to give trump a chance. jacob rascone is in macomb county, and jacob, those obama-trump voters, they are the most fascinating voters for us to spend time with. what have you learned? >> we spent the day in fryer's kitchen and bakery here in warren. as you mentioned, macomb county went for obama twice but then went to trump with over nearly 50,000 votes. a couple themes we found walking around and talking with folks, we did meet those who were very disappointed that trump won and those who were very excited that trump won. but in the middle and the biggest thing we found were people who were persuadable. they were willing to be persuaded by either side and

most simply said, they were not persuaded by hillary clinton, and workers, those in the auto industry and others, trump was going to be their fighter. here's a few examples. >> i looked at the two candidates, and hillary did not seem genuine to me, too many lies in the making. trump said a lot of things i wanted to hear, and my vote counted. security, jobs, the economy is important. i'm all good with lowering taxes, so the issues hit home for your average joe. >> obama promised in 2008 there will be a change, and he promised us this, that, and that never came. >> resurgences for the democrat. in the '80s, these voters were scared about the decline in the auto industry, and they're scared about it today. there is a despair about how can my economic situation improve?

trump glommed on that, talked about economic issues and he proved to be a fighter. >> again, we met mostly people who said that they were willing to go for the democrats but didn't because they weren't persuaded by hillary clinton. a lot of the independents, most of them say we don't just stick with one or the other, and this time trump was going to provide the change that we really wanted, and really, it was economics, as you heard there from some of those folks. >> no doubt. jacob, appreciate it. nice work there. joining me now is michigan senator, democratic senator debbie stabenow. she's also the incoming chair of democratic policy. good to see you. >> good to be with you. >> i'm going to read something to you that joseph stiglitz wrote in vanity fair today and he writes this. the system was unfair. it was rigged, to use trump's

term, though he was talking about something else, perhaps. but it was a situation waiting to be exploited. he calls it the trilogy, rising with an unfair system with a government to pretended to be with individuals and it was just the opposite and provided the perfect conditions for the emergence of donald trump. is joseph stiglitz on to something? >> there is no question about it, in michigan and across the country there are people who feel like the economy never recovered. i feel it every day with the middle class. when i look at what donald trump has said, a lot of it i could pull out in legislation that i've introduced and tried to get past a number of times that the republicans have consistently blocked, whether it's closing tax loopholes and bringing jobs home, currency manipulation, the whole effort to do an infrastructure investment, to create good-paying jobs. so, yes, he was talking about

something. ironically, something that, in fact, we have been trying to do that have been consistently blocked by the republicans. so it's going to be very interesting now, i hope, to the extent that he's willing to actually follow through on those things that will help people in macomb county and in warren and support the things that i've been pushing and other democrats, then we're willing to work with him to do that. it's going to be very interesting to me to see the position of republicans who have consistently opposed those things. >> so if your bills that you're just talking about, and you've got a president trump that, with a few changes here or there, is willing to go this way, you're willing to vote with president trump on some of these things that you're talking about, whether it's infrastructure spending, whether it is closing a corporate tax loophole that you think might bring a job back from overseas. i know not everybody agrees that will be the actual outcome, but

in some form of that. if he proposes legislation like that, you'll sign on to it? >> to the extent he's willing to support those things, then i'm willing, and my democratic caucus is willing to do that. in fact, my jobs home act stops us from paying for the cost of the move. right now under the tax code, a company that's leaving the united states can actually write off on their taxes the cost of the move and the workers, and all of us have to pay for it. so far i've had this in, i think, six years, and republicans have filibustered it every time. to the extent that president trump will work with us on those things, count me in. if he's going to continue to keep the system rigged for the wealthy and well connected and continue to pit people against each other, then count me out. >> let me ask you this, though. you as a democratic officeholder, you're probably going to feel pressure in two different directions politically.

i want to read you something that paul waldman wrote in the "washington post," and essentially it was an excerpt in new york magazine. donald trump needs to take charge the minute he takes office. that they can burnish their reputation by economic populism by joining with trump. this would be a senseless way to conceive of the choice if voters judged the congressional party independently of how it judged the president. the single accountability mechanism by which the public makes its choices is the president. if the president is succeeding, voters will reward his party. the message is don't help him, because if you help him politically, you doom the democrats. what do you say to democrats who wish you would fight him on everything even if you agree? >> chuck, this is a very difficult thing, because there's no question that the republicans for eight years fought president obama on everything. once wall street was fixed, they were done. that was okay. they didn't care about working people when all the things we were trying to do to complete

the recovery. the challenges that we really do care about the people that haven't been affected by the recovery and about our country, and to carry that scenario out, that means nothing would ever happen in our country. and so what we're saying is, to the extent that he's willing to focus on things that help people, okay. but there is a whole long list of things that he's proposed that won't do that. and i want to just stress one other thing, chuck, if i could. that is that michigan is the consummate ticket state. we have a tie right now, and it's not set yet. what's interesting is the house -- the state legislative races, more people voted for democrats. and so if it wasn't for redistricting, we would have taken back the house. my only reason for saying that is that when people went in, more people voted for democrats at the state legislative level.

so it's an interesting thing to analyze. i think what people want is action and change and they want their lives to get better, and that's what i'm all about. >> you think you'll get punished if all you're known as is somebody who won't work with trump on anything. you think they'll punish you in michigan. >> i think the people that i represent would be punished and that's why i'm here, and that's what we're about. you know, it's not about just keeping power, getting and keeping power. that's what it is for a lot of folks on the other side. we are actually trying to make things better for people. and so if he is willing to do that, then we're willing to work with him. but if he's willing to do what he talked about in his campaign, to divide people and hurt people, absolutely not. >> senator stabenow, democrat from michigan. appreciate you coming on and sharing your views. >> thanks. tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern, my colleague chris hayes will have an exclusive interview with the outgoing senate minority leader, democrat

harry reid. the future of the democratic party under president trump, he doesn't sugar coat what he wants. on facebook, we'll follow out a phony new story goes viral and sometimes reaches more people than actual news. stay tuned. ♪ i want a hippopotamus for christmas ♪ ♪ only a hippopotamus will do at the united states postal service, we deliver more online purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. and more hippopotamuses, too. ♪ so whatever your holiday priority, our priority is you.

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so i know how important that is. the upcoming news debate.

how does it make it in? but first, kate rogers. >> stocks rise across the board today. the s&p up 10. yellen saying a rate increase could be relatively soon. walmart sank 3% today. sales beat estimates but revenues fell short. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide.

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in an age of social media where so many people are getting their information and sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems. >> president obama in germany

today speaking about what appears to be a growing problem of fake news. here's an example of how a false headline makes the rounds. so back in march when kory lewandowski was his personal manager, it led here. donald trump's protester speak out. i was paid $35,000 to speak out against donald trump. that's not actual news. here's the gist. the story is totally bogus. it started out in the mind of this guy, paul horner. for the past few years, he's actually made a living off of viral news hoaxes. and that fake news went out to lewandowski's thousands of followers. he later deleted the tweet, but seven months later, donald's son eric tweeted out the exact same fake story.

eric, too, ultimately deleted it, but not before his hundreds of thousands of followers could see it and maybe take it for fact, let alone who took the link and reposted it on their own facebook feed. i'm joined now by two reporters trying to unravel this fake news situation, kate dewey and shera frankel. she's been following facebook's response to this fake news item. katelyn, i'll start with you. he makes his living doing it. explain his job. >> it's a really fascinating business model. essentially it works similar to how any media site makes money on line in that he runs display advertising, which he buys through the google ads on his program. he then hopes that many people will read his stories, and he guarantees that by making up outlandish things that people

want to share and click. then when they do share and click those stories, he makes ad revenue. so paul horner is the name of the gentleman who wrote that story, and he told me he was currently making about $10,000 a month from this scheme, which is more than a lot of legitimate journalists make. >> that is something else. chera, i know facebook, mark zuckerberg said the following. he was pretty defiant after the election. i think the idea that fake news on facebook, of which it's a very small amount of the content, influenced the election in any way. then the stats come out in the last three months of the campaign and we saw the top, according to your guy's analysis, top 20 performing false election stories. the top 20 best performing election stories from actual major news sites, 19 major news sites, generated 7.3 million. that says it all. does facebook have a problem or

not, and is zuckerberg aware of it? >> you know, the guys i spoke to at facebook really took that quote, that statement made by mark zuckerberg, as a sign that the top executives were not taking it seriously. i think if zuckerberg hadn't said just that, that it was a crazy idea, they wouldn't have come forward and told the journalists they were forming these top stories. >> katelyn, the success of this, obviously paul horner is not the only one. how many organized fake news sites are there out there that you've been able to get your hands on? >> the frightening thing is we really have no idea, right? i suspect a lot of journalists, as well as a lot of academics and facebook itself will be digging into this as time goes on. when i first started writing about paul horner in 2014, we identified about two dozen major sort of industrialized fake news operations that worked off his

business model. and since then, i mean, anecdotally, it would seem like those figures exploded. buzzfeed did amazing reporting to find that fake stories ran out of macedonia and their suggestions that a lot of these organizations, these hoaxers based in russia who are targeting u.s. audiences. we really have no idea how big it is, but i suspect those numbers will be coming out soon. >> i guess i'm curious, chera. look, the first amendment is the first amendment, you know? and people have freedom to do this. what is facebook's responsibility here? i go back and forth myself. twitter has decided to ban a lot of outright people who are then now going to go off and start their own and have their own conversations somewhere else. getting into the game of sensoring is a difficult proposition. >> it's at the crux of so many things right now.

it's at the crux of what we want our on-line wall to look like. the people i spoke to at facebook said they're not looking to facebook to decide what's news and what's not. they don't want facebook to be the arbitrator of fake news. the same way they would verify a person on twitter or facebook, you can go through, right, and say the "new york times," bbc, these are new organizations we know and we're letting you know they're known for producing news. then having other sites that don't have that same tickmark or something on them to let them know this is someone you can trust. we have organizations that have been established for years, but you can imagine in the rest of the world where facebook is making a huge push to get someone on line, what kind of nightmare that will cause for people as they come on line, don't know which news sources to trust and are suddenly faced with a barrage of items real and fake and don't know which ones they can trust as news.

>> and it's obviously a lucrative business. what you described, somebody is probably going to try it. >> absolutely. it's so lucrative and it's also so easy. you can set up one of these news sites if you have any amount of technological savvy. you can set one up in 30 minutes or less and be making a profit within a few weeks. i think it is heartening that the moves that we've seen facebook and google make so far have gone after the monetization schemes to use their ad networks. we don't know exactly what that's going to look like, but certainly my friend paul admitted that would be something concerting to him as a hoaxer, so it maya pwould apply to othe well. >> i'm out of time for now, but

this is a topic i want to delve into again. very sensitive, very enlightening and just the beginning of what will be a fascinating few months as social media figures try to crack this code. still ahead, why i'm obsessed with everyone's obsession for secretary of state. stay tuned. insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like any standardized medicare supplement plan, you'll be able to stay with the doctor or specialist you trust... or look for someone new -- as long as they accept medicare patients. and you're not stuck in a network... because there aren't any. so why wait? call now to request your free decision guide and learn more.

an actual monument in washington. how many head secretaries have monuments in washington? how many head secretaries can you name? all right, i won't wait any longer. you don't need a degree, you don't have to be a lawyer or have military experience to be secretary of state. you don't even have to have overseas experience. you just have to get picked and

know how to handle jet lag. in other words, if donald trump calls you up and offers you this job, you take it and ask questions later. we'll be right back. ♪ at walgreens, you're free- free to seize the savings on medicare part d. from one-dollar copays on select plans to rewards points on all prescriptions, it's easy to save big at walgreens. ♪ just stop by walgreens. ♪

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time for the lid. that means the panel is back. beth, katie, and steve. i got the question from a viewer after watching the fake news segment and it's a fantastic question. what is the difference in fake news and politicians lying to their constituents to get their vote? steve, do you have an answer? >> it's a great question. it gets to the heart of, img, the sinnism that's out there and the voters we've been hearing from since last week. big picture, they just believe the system is broken and they want to blow it up and that gets to it. >> and that's where i think all of this fake news stuff, and it's a problem. there's no doubt. but, voters are sitting there. i'm sure there were some that were watching the segment going, yeah, i don't believe what i get out of the mainstream media. now, it is part of that has been a concerted campaign by the

right and some on the left to discredit real journalists. i get that that's their goal here. but that's what they've created. there are some people who critique the media, who have created this fake news problem. >> and you get something where you walk up to someone and i had this so many times in the campaign trail, where they would just say that president obama wasn't enforcing immigration policies. and i would say, you know, he's deported more undocumented immigrants than his predecessors. it i don't believe you. it's a fact. where can i find it? google anything. >> that's what's made fake news so easy to take hold. it's this campaign that's taken place over 30 years, arguably, there's been some pretty -- to discredit journalists. >> sure. yet, i want to go back to the heart of your audience members' question. i'm going to sound a little pollyannish here. but voters know when politicians

send them news, it's them promoting themselves. it's propaganda, essentially. and real news is in the business of finding truth. we are in a state now where we're post-truth. where people don't believe anything -- >> that phrase. >> exactly, we're in the post-truth era. and the other thing, and you alluded to this, katie, is that people are living in their own news bubbles, and silos. so when something comes in that contradicts their world view, they don't bother to pay attention to it, if it reinforces it, they do. which is why fake news, if it reinforces your world view, you'll buy it. >> i have family members, thanks to a fake news story about why is president obama no longer honoring eagle scouts anymore. it was some fake news that went around, that wasn't true. it had just circulated on the facebook. as it sometimes said to me. i want to change subjects to tim kaine, announced today, not a candidate for president in 2020. here's why i was surprised by that decision, steve. i'm not surprised -- maybe he

doesn't run and it's one thing, but he has a platform that he just decided -- you can argue, he just gave up a large platform he had earned by being the running mate. >> however the defeated vice presidential candidate who turns around and runs -- >> it's not easy. >> but yes, it's a bigger platform than he would have had if he would have been the candidate. who the heck knows who's going to are up, but it is interesting seeing some of the names that are probably going to be in the mix for 2020 start to react -- >> i want to put up the graphic, my producer said he figured people would throw stuff at their tv screen once we put up the graphic of 2020 candidates. but there's your first look. there's your first look at the field. go ahead and get mad at us for thinking 2020. beth, were you surprised that kaine just went ahead and said -- >> yeah, i was a little surprised, but it made me think, perhaps, the experience he's been through, it's not worth going through again. just those three months and already being picked as hillary clinton's vp, he didn't have to go through that grueling primary. and basically, it was awful. he campaigned all over the

country, did what he was supposed to do, still lost. he might be the politician who says, i don't need to do that again. >> and the progressive voice is getting so loud in the democratic party, he's just -- in the scale -- for the folks who really wanted hillary clinton to pick somebody outside of the norm, like elizabeth warren or, you know, maybe pick bernie sanders, if they could have their way. he just didn't fit that mold for them. he wasn't far enough to the left for them. >> well, we'll see. i'm also not convinced that anything you say in 2016 truly does apply. >> didn't hillary clinton say that she wasn't necessarily running. >> she did. >> thank you, guys. appreciate it. after the great, mapping out another fascinating electoral divide. that's right after the break. stay tuned.

in case you missed it, this country is deeply divided and turns out we've got a road map for that division. thanks to my republican buddy, brad todd, who you see on this show, he noted i-5 is the main corridor up and down the west from mexico to canada. clinton's winning margin is about 3.9 million voters and the same story in the east, where it's i-95. the main highway from florida to new england. count out the counties touching the highway and all the way to the atlantic ocean, clinton wins about 3 million votes. what about the rest of the country, in the teeny tiny 3,000 miles the between those very blue highways of i-5 and i-95.

well, you know where i'm going here. in between i-5 and i-95, trump is the winner. the big winner. you add up all of those counties, in other words, the rest of the country, and trump's margin of victory in between the two major interstates is more than 6 million votes. sometimes a road map does tell the story. that's all for tonight. wi"with all due respect" starts right now. hi, i'm donny deutsch. trump offered no new white house staff or cabinet announcements today, but there was one who were of a headline that deserves top billing on our program this evening. mitt romney will meet with the president-elect this weekend, sources tell me this is about secretary of state. that romney would take the job if it was offered, and that trump is serious, this is not kabuki, but for real. mark, what do we make of all of this? >> donal