lawyer. katie mcfarland will be security adviser under mike flynn and served in the administration and an to henry kissinger and contributor for fox news. there will be no further announcements until next week. dr. ben carson is mulling over an offer of housing and urban development. having no experience in that particular area. she was said to be naming wilbur ross as secretary. strategist and white house aide, national republican consultant and south carolina chair. mark thompson and host of make it plain. and molly hooper for the hill.com. look how many people came out on the day after a holiday. clearly you didn't eat enough because you should be asleep.

we will start with the bush administration for which you worked, whether you agree with the policies or not, ty seem to turn to experienced hand. that's the hallmark. george w came in with less experienced people from texas, about but had to bring in more experienced folks. what do you make of what "the washington post" had the inexperienced teams. >> i'm not sure they are all that inexperienced. >> we will take betsy devos and the experience with education unions and as a qualification, they can give a voice to vouchers, et cetera, she dedicated her adult life to that cause. not just in michigan where she is from, but and maybe not the traditional type that many looked to. >> and not the type that hardens democrats who see her as someone who is really, really a posed to

public schools. she has been for vouchers that jeb bush tried to push. what do you make the betsy devos pick? >> she is an incredibly dangerous pick and does a lot of damage to our public school system and there will be a lot of firepower behind making sure. >> kate, one of the things about the picks that is a pattern so far is these are far right

ideological picks a& whoever is open to drilling in the grand canyon or something like that. so far the picks are going to stir up a fight and starting with the attorney general. we tried to fight president obama in 2008. we tried. >> for eight years. >> we didn't win a lot. we did win ask it's hard for republicans to give advice to democrats. after we were over the shock of losing to barack obama, we spent as little money as we could. on the ability to win the thousand seats we won back home.

and we paid a lot of attention to redistricting. i think democrats will have to rediscover federalism. the reality is, a lot of the reason that people got mad at the republican party is they constantly fight president obama and constantly lose. the affordable care act is a battle they ended up losing. democrats are staring into the law in washington and even when they go back home, they seated so much ground. don't democrats have to learn that obstruction works and being completely against everything

the president does. number two, you have to get back in your state and win. >> that is what happened. there was far more obstruction from my perspective. there was building on the state level and there is so much redistricting and gerrymandering in the house. i think the fact of the matter is and democrats saw this when bush was in office. democrated wanted to govern and deliver. they didn't want to just go in a position and nullification's sake. republicans in the house up to this point when obama was in who wanted to shut down the government and didn't want it to function at all. now they control both houses for the moment and may each control the supreme court. for democrats it will be tough.

they will do that. >> that is not politically smart. i think you have to learn from people who know what they are doing. it makes your position clear that you are the opposition to the president and it just worked. high said we will try to make him a-term president. he won a lot of fights, but the republicans were able to reap huge rewards. democrats would be fools to compromise. >> maybe. i think there is one element to this conversation thatty woo are looking at. we are not living and the president will not be governing. many republicans, myself included who have now come to the realization that we have to give donald trump the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to govern. if he doesn't govern like a republican, many republicans like me are going to abandon ship and that will create a very

different dynamic. i'm not sure that obstructionism is necessarily politically the way to go. we don't know how this is going to play out. >> i have to go to you on this market. there was an ethic column that has been shared more than anything i have put on my facebook or anything. do we have to give him a chance? if you have neverson sessions, if if that's the first thing you do, give them a chance doesn't apply to a lot of americans who get what that pick says. they make a specific message and so did the bannon pick. it sends a very clear message and do people not have to start receiving the messages they have been given? >> there is nothing acceptable about jefferson davis. >> sessions. you have done that twice. >> i'm sorry. >> jefferson beauregard sessions. >> there is nothing acceptable about him and betsy devos.

she is someone attacking the bedrock of democracy which is public education. i agree they are unacceptable, i'm concerned about obstruction. when republicans were able to be obstructed, they had the senate and the house and they were able to do that. democrats don't have anything. the practical application of obstruction is what's challenging. to oppose this president's pick and to oppose his policies i think is necessary. with jeff sessions and farlamcfd called herself the leading benghazi person opposing hillary clinton. >> i want to get molly in here and one of the other things we hear, laura ingram who is a conservative talk show host is in the running to be white house press secretary and this is what politico wrote. the popular talk show host is willing to accept the position of press secretary in donald

trump's administration, but she wants a bigger role in policy make and a seat at the decision making table. it also said monica crowley is also in the running for that job. as a member of the media, you may have the media talk show host and thinks she ought to run policy. what does that mean for what the relationship would be like for the traditional press corps to deal with somebody who comes from talk radio. >> tony snow was one of the best press secretaries and he came from fox news sunday to fox news radio and his back ground was in editorials. he was an editorial writer for a long time and had a great relationship with the press. laura ingram was one of the first membe to get behind donald trump and put a lot of pressure on people to back him. going back to democratic

obstructionism and winning, i'm not sure that is the case. donald trump defeated 15 other potential nominees. because he was running against the republican party. the republican party got into a lot of trouble when they shut down the government and that was ted cruz and that happened and the republican party was not responsible for that. they didn't like it at all. it will be interesting to see how the obstructionists and a jeff sessions and a ted cruz guilty along with donald trump and the republican party when they come into power. >> tell us how you think that will go. if you have a party that is the target of people like steve bannon, especially when he called himself darth vader and compared himself to satan, one of the key targets is the republican establishment. >> one of the things we do know is when he had the house and the

senate of the presidency, i will revolt. he got out of control. that's how we lost the house. when you control all three and that is not full control of the senate because we don't have a widespread of that. we will get a wider spread with 25 democrats up in 2018. it depends on how you perform. he ran not with the republican party, but against it. he hijacked it for a while and owns it. putting reince over there with satisfaction and moving along with conservative picks. that's the danger that they are missing. he won by people who had not voted in two cycles. those are not hard core republicans, but people who said i will take change and risk over hillary clinton. >> one of the first things you heard happened and unhappened in the republican party after the

election. if you think of them one way are the ways the house used to operate. the checks on the hand of the house and it seemed horrible, but it worked. you can take home to your district, i brought you this bridge and i brought you this hospital and this road. without them you can't bring anything home but ideological fight. will republicans bring back something like earmarks? what do you think? >> i assume you are shaking your head no because you think it's bad politics. >> the congressman i talked to want it and they say why it got us in so much trouble. they seeded the money to the executive branch. >> i'm not sure that donald trump if he indeed governs the way he said he was going to and i think that's a big if because we have seen him moderate positions on a host of things. i'm not sure that reintroducing earmark process back into the government is the way to convince the voters that as you

said switched from obama to vote from you in a different leader. that sends a message. . >> i will give you the tradition of flipping the house. >> last word on this, the democrats fall for it if donald trump decides to flip the strip and become a spender. >> here's the thing. in 2009 on inauguration day. they talked about how they were going to make president obama a one-term president. i just am on the side of resistance. there is no two donald trumps. there is one. that's the donald trump we saw during the campaign. they are extremists and starting with steve bannon. i do not think that is the way

to go. we know who donald trump is and he is a hate monger for the last 16 to 18 months. that's just my guess. my guess will be back later in the show. will it be mitt romney or rudy giuliani. stay with us. bl

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that was snl about the incompatibility of trump and mitt romney who is said to be a front-runner for secretary of state. some were against romney because he opposed his candidacy in calling him a phoney and a fraud. he may have to deliver a public apology as a condition of being offered the job. there are concerns his foreign business interest could complicate the confirmation process. i have to come to the table first and get the ladies in. this is fascinating to me. you have mitt romney who gave a speech about how anti-thetical his ideas are and said giuliani was the ultimate loyalist. who is it in that camp that

wants romney. >> it feels good and he looks good and looks the part. the people i talk to are not for the government. i don't think you make up for the long speech. that was hard. i would contend that much like secretary clinton and the people who work for barack obama never liked each other. you will see the different agendas and see them grandstanding to a lot of things. they are humiliating someone. >> yes, there were harsh words said. >> there is benefit to both men

here. it making him seem like a bigger man and like he is putting country ahead of everything else. there is aing inment style who said you want a healthy close among your advisers to keep everyone honest. when you have something in the chair who is very present. donald trump has not taken the briefings because he is holed up at trump tower doing whatever he does. he has given mike pence over functions of governing. he would be running the country while trump is making america

great again and giving speeches. doesn't the management style only work if you have a present chief executive? >> the way he runs his businesses and runs the companies based on biographies that i read, he likes to delegate and be overarching and watch what's going on. he wants experts in various fields to take the lead. not only does this pick -- it has to go through congress. we heard from rand paul who is not a fab of rudy giuliani. he would be contentious. we are waiting for the senate

race and he can't afford to lose those. they are going through the confirmation process. so the in fact they would be a good step to take, you have to keep in mind when you keep him close, if he is not behind the scenes trying to work against donald trump. he is of that administration. and he was a good entree to go around the world and be seen and make lots of friends that could make you increase your stature. >> and your e-mail output.

you do have this possibility and whatever you want to say about him is a statesmanly figure and had a principal position on donald trump in the campaign. based on the thing that donald trump said about deporting muslims and mass deporting people that are of mexican decent and also what he said about banning muslims, would he be willing to sell the policies in foreign capitals as secretary of state. i can't imagine it, but can you? >> i can't imagine either. mitt romney was the leader of the never trump movement. he was out there and incredibly vocal. i just don't understand how he would be able to now potentially if he is chosen as the secretary of state and makes it through confirmation process go out there into the world and on behalf of donald trump. donald trump managed to make

this whole transition process into the world of the apprentice. he said i am the only one who knows who the finalists are. who knows. this is something we have never seen before. that's for sure. >> speaking of things we have never seen before. she appears to be tweeting against the preference. i don't get it, do you? you had mitt romney in it and rick perry and the a swordment and one thing they had, romney

had a lot of money and was a good competitor, but and he just destroyed him in florida. i just don't know if you can get over that. mike and both to their point stepped up for donald trump. >> she was with newt in 2012. newt gingrich had the ad they did that showed mitt romney taking away people's jobs. newt gingrich cut the legs out

and set it up and how does romney get to cut the line ahead of all of these people. they have to figure that out and what i'm walking into. >> you saw the president just put out the north korean stuff. the president has been wonderful, but he is telling america, folks, i they are walking into a storm. and he is giving you aed hads up.

someone who is sim battico for him. that's one of the riskiest picks and he would be difficult to get through then. >> he is probably the nicest person i have ever met. he is giving donald trump all the credit because i think he is sincerely trying to work this out. this may be random competing interest. >> i think it's a little bit of both. there is a lot of hope that

donald trump is doing this deliberately and he was firing it. >> that was written by producers. donald trump didn't come up with any of that. >> i'm just kid being that. that was a joke. i think there is a lot of hope that he is being deliberate about this and the fact that he has mike pence with capitol hill and with everything else, it really makes the conservatives feel a lot more comfortable with the situation. that's a big deal given that mike pence is the governor and he has wonderful relations with conservatives. and a lot of experience in that realm and even the foreign policy, he was on the committee when he was in the house. for a long time. the subcommittee chairman. that's a good sign for

republicans s is in washington. >> he will spend a lot of time in new york in his penthouse and a lot of mike pence on tv doing the job. a viral video exploding right now. we will talk about it. stay with us. simulation initiated. ♪ ♪ pedestrian detection engaged. ♪

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>> this is going viral at this moment. a man on a plane calls hillary clinton supporters on the plane b words. you hear giggling and kate and giancarlo called out. next. people say,

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>> welcome back. a video of a delta airlines passenger calling hillary clinton supporters the b word and praising trump is everywhere on the internet. due to nbc standards and legal

quitance, we can't yet show the video, but delta said we are soy this disruption occurred and our crews work hard to ensure flying is comfortable for all customers. >> emma, how are you and please describe to our viewers what happened in the video. >> i'm doing great. how are you? so i was just walking into the plane, single file. i could hear this guy in front of me saying something like make america great again and put your hands up. i ended up sitting down one person away from him in the same row. he was just talking, saying trump, trump. i leaned in and said i don't live in the country right now. i live in belize in the caribbean. i haven't been hearing about the

election and me why you elect trump. he said i have something to say to everyone. then he started get up and i said i'm going to video this. he said go ahead, video this. it is going to be viral. i said all right, whatever. he got up on his rant and sat back down. >> me about the rant since we don't have the video. we will have to have people use their imaginations. describe what he said on the rant which you videoed on the plane. >> he clamped and said donald trump, donald trump, can i hear donald trump. nobody reacted. everyone wasitting there. he said you guys have nothing to say? so he was like -- i don't know if i'm allowed to say this word online. >> can you say b word. >> he said for all of you hillary bitches on the plane. and everyone was like oh, my god. then he just continued to say

something. he said donald trump is the president and if you don't like it, too bad and he sat down. >> did the flight attendants at any point intercept this man? normally if you have an outburst on the plane and i fly delta all the time. they usually will stop you in a new york minute if you get up and start being loud. was he intercepted in any way? >> no. he got up, said it, no one came over and he sat down for a little while before an attendant said you need to come with me. >> he sat back down. you had a conversation with him before he did this. did anyone provoke him into this outburst to your knowledge? >> no, he was already all excited about trump on the way in. i was the that asked him what are you supporting trump for? it wasn't like an angry exchange

of words either. he was excited. i don't know how to describe it. >> he was enthusiastic is what you believe. >> enthusiastic and he asked me to video. he said please do. i want everyone to see this. >> he thought it would go viral. >> did you know who he was? a random person on the plane. >> no one identified him and he left the identify without the police or anything. i don't know if he has been identified yet. >> last question is did anyone on the plane complain that they were offended by what they heard? >> yes, yes. after the flight, a huge group of passengers asked me to send them the video and everyone was upset and i'm still getting messages from people saying how thankful they are that i took the video and how upsetting it was to them. >> emma balm, stay with us. don't hang up. i want to keep you on with us and a contributor and back with

me mark thompson. thank you very much for joining us. you were the first person to talk to emma and got us in touch with her. you posted a tweet about this rant that has now been retweeted lots and lots of times including seth mcfarland, the comedy actor and writer. if a brown person stood up like this, he would be kicked off. that's none of my business. your take on this incident? i'm sure if you stood up and i'm going to speculate. >> with my name and how i look, there was actually a couple that was taken off of a flight in august that i forget what they did and that aroused suspicion for no reason. we had people kicked off of southwest flights for being too large or complaining too much. i have never seen anything like this. post 9/11, a lot of airlines are so careful about whom they allow

on flights. people thought this man was drunk. i don't know if emma felt he was drunk, but i have never seen anyone stay on a flight after that. >> did you smell chicago on this man or get the impression that he was drunk? >> i was right there and i smelled no alcohol. he didn't seem drunk. he just seemed really excited. i don't know how to describe his behavior. bizarre, but not drunk. >> had drinks been served or had the flight taken off? >> we just sat down and were waiting. the flight didn't even leave the gate in the airport. >> we have seen since the trump election, there are incidents that we are seeing around the country and anecdotal stories of people being pubullied and yellg trump, trump, trump before

bullying. is this the first week of trump supporters that we think will die down or is it more ominous. >> i like to think it is, but i don't think it is. when you have dog whistle politics like donald trump to people who are white supremacists, whether you believe he is or not, he is signalling to them, this is okay and what we are going to do from make america great again through we had to beg him to denounce david duke. then you come back with the appointments and the first three are racists. i think he is going to continue within setting that tone it is going to continue. the southern poverty law center. >> 701 and counting. >> last week it was 300. i think we will see it for a while until he said hey, i'm not a part of this and marginalizes these people. that still may not work. >> we had steven moore who came

out as a reagan republican for a long time and told the party you are not the party of reagan anymore. you are the party of trump. is the risk of that that people who are sort of the worst actors, the people who want to be filmed being belligerent bullies come to define the trump republican party. >> that ought to be their greatest fear. i saw the clip of the guy on the airplane. he looks like he is 6'2" and rough looking fellow. they should have taken him off the plane. he assaulted people. four women were frightened right there. i don't know if anybody in the administration or anyone i had done business with would put up with that type of attitude or whatever he was trying to prove. they should have taken him off the plane and i fault the airline for that. they would have yanked about anybody else for it. it was embarrassing and shameful and the language he used. you can see what his mission was and he sat down and they should

have picked his as up and put him off the plane. >> republican or democrat, it was bad manners and he intimidated every woman on the plane. >> i happened to know and i don't know if people know that you were one of the people who pushed really hard for the republican party to diversify and attract more women and minorities in the deep south. the unraveling of that project has been swift. donald trump didn't pretend other than saying you should vote for me. there has been a sentiment of angry resentment with white voters. whether or not they are towards white supremacist, the identity politics manifests this. doesn't donald trump have to address this? >> i think he will clear it up. his policies will clear it up. you will be surprised with his education pick. you will be surprised. >> with public school sms.

>> we elected people like nikki haley and tim scott and lindsey grahams. they talk about better schools and i don't know how we get there, but the way we have been doing it hasn't been working. that's another argument and i think that this type of behavior if it's labeled as republican behavior, what we said about the democrats ripping seats, there is the avenue to it. >> here's the problem. he uncorked this bottle with the birther stuff. i talked to a lot of stuff and this surprises a lot of stuff. i talked to a lot of white supremacists that supported trump and they saw that as a sign he would be their friend. it kept the white supremacy alive for 400 years. black men and women lie. they don't the truth. by going after the birther stuff, he tapped into that. they don't want to let go. we see the statement he put out,

it was technical, i disavow these people. he gets angrier about the "new york times" than white is y supremacis supremacists. the only thing they will believe is if he goes on twitter, but that is unfiltered trump. they want to know it comes from his android phone and they will start to believe he is pushing back against them. >> i don't think it works at all. it is like the godfather saying i don't want anything to happen to this person. it is still a dog whistle. you brothers want to go on a plane with me and ask people how many people on this plane support the water protection? they will run us off the plane. he should have been taken off the plane. i'also curious, they left him on the plane. i wonder if he ordered drink service on the plane and if they gave it to him. if they did, that's more dangerous. frankly to me and you may be right, he was not drunk.

he looked drunk and sounded drunk to me. you don't give a guy like that alcohol. >> i will give emma the last word. did he order drinks to your knowledge? >> no and this was before the flight had an opportunity to offer drinks. >> after this incident did you notice if he ordered alcohol? >> no, he was sitting like a child in time out. he didn't mutter anything. >> emma balm, i appreciate you being on with us. i appreciate you being here with my other guests. thank you. >> no problem, thanks for having me. >> jill stein is raising a lot of hubbub and money. is she and the rest of the country ignoring the real story. stay with us.

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the conversation does not end here, folks. join me online. follow us on twitter, facebook, amjoy show. and up next, what role did russia play in the media coverage of the 2016 presidential election. more p.m. joy up next.

some people might see it as surprising that the green party has jumped up when this has been in the makes for the last ten days around the country. with lawyers, who specialize in recount, with forensics experts, with computer experts, not only coming to us, but coming to the democratic party, to say, this needs to be recounted. there's enough evidence here that it should be investigated. >> as of today, jill stein's green party campaign has raised more than $5 million toward a goal of $7 million in an effort

to fund the costs of election recounts in wisconsin, pennsylvania, and michigan. the donation drive has already surpassed the amount donors gave to stein's presidential campaign by more than $1.5 million. stein launched the recount campaign after a group of election analysts and a respected computer science questioned the integrity of the election results in michigan, in pennsylvania, and in wisconsin. three states that were key to donald trump's victory. those recount proponents were looking for an ally in hillary clinton, who they urged to join their call for a second look at those swing states. but that call has so far gone unanswered by the clinton campaign, which according to "the new york times," has concluded that a ballot review is highly unlikely to change the outcome of the election. joining me now, eric bullard, senior fellow at media matters and naveed jamali are also here. i want to start with you on, naveed. we've talked about this, we'll bring some of our conversation on the air.

michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. let's take a look at the margin of the trump wins in those three states. in michigan, it's 0.2%. i don't even know if they've certified the results. in pennsylvania, it's 1.2. in wisconsin, it's 0.8. those are such tiny margins that hillary clinton is essentially entitled to a recount by law in all three if she wants. let's look at the second thing. "the washington post" put the following numbers, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania together account for 46 electoral votes. this election was essentially decided by 107,000 people in these three states. trump won the popular vote by that combined amount. that amounts to 0.09% of all votes cast in the nation. so naveed, when you have democrats looking at those numbers, looking at the fact that hillary clinton wins by 2 million votes, but loses by 107,000, and those are states that democrats almost always win. i thought they almost can't lose them, is there a reason to be suspicious that somehow, the russians hacked the the electoral systems, the machines in those three states? >> yeah, it's a really good

question, joy. and it's something i've looked at, myself. you know, look, i voted for hillary, i'm very disturbed she didn't win. i'm also very much someone who has intimate knowledge of the russians. and i have to say, i doubt very much the russians actually did anything directly with the vote count. that's not to say wikileaks or anything else of that matter, but when it comes to actually changing vote counts, we're talking about paper ballots here, you have to look at this and say, could the russians have done it in a way that would not have been attributable to them? and also, secondly, would they have risked it? i don't see what the end game is. i know a lot of people believe that russians want to put trump in there, and i don't necessarily disagree with that, but i think they're very worried about escalation. and i don't think they would have taken such a risk. there's also the practical. i'm not sure exactly how they would go about and do it. >> and naveed, to stay with you for just a moment, we know the russians did do something, which is to conduct what may have been the most successful information warfare, targeting an american election, that we've seen ever, in history. this operation was highly successful. let's look at "the washington

post," this is a november 24th headline. russian propaganda effort helps spread fake news during the election. thousands of potnets, teams of paid human trolls, networks of social media accounts echoed and amplified right-wing sites across the internet as they portrayed clinton as a criminal, hiding the possibly fatal health problems. and naveed, when you look at jill stein voters, who were more numerous than the 107,000 people in those three states, i would have people on my twitter feeds who are saying, i'm voting for jill stein and cite things that would tupper out to be fake news. hillary clinton is a criminal unindicted. so should we -- are we misdirected now trying to find hack machines, when the russians do something entirely different. >> the russians with wikileaks, the russians, the soviets, this

is something they're famous for. when it comes to propaganda. in the height of the cold war, they came up with the idea of a nuclear winter, that was meant to totally dissuade -- there are so many numerous, you know, historical events where the soviets and the russians have tried to sway public opinion to their side. certainly with the internet and facebook and social media, it's a great boon for them. so you're absolutely right. you don't have to look beyond wikileaks to see russian, you know, involvement and collusion to try to change the outcome of this. unfortunately, i don't think it actually, you know, went on to physically change any vote counts. i think you're just not going to find evidence of that. >> i want to broaden out this panel now, for a moment, pause and let you know that we are now into the 6:00 p.m. hour of this special edition, which we call "p.m. joy." we'll stay on this topic about a possible swing state recount and russia's role in the election. i want to bring back national republican consultant, katon d dawson, and add you to the mix. with democrats off down the road