gabe gutierrez reporting us from south carolina. that does it for this very busy 60 minutes! "mtp daily starts now." yep, it's friday. words matter or do they? tonight but seriously, folks. why donald trump says you shouldn't take donald trump at his word. except when you should. >> that was a euphemism. >> the general selection. first flynn. then mattis. are there more generals to come? how many generals can fit in the trump cabinet? and president-elect trump, did he ever plan to pick mitt romney for state or was it all payback to humiliate a former foe? this is "mtp daily." and it starts right now. it's friday. good evening. i'm chuck todd in washington.

welcome. certain things presidents say that you never forget. read my lips, no new taxes. if you like your health care plan, you can keep it. how about this one? i did not have sexual relations with that woman. folks, a huge way we, the cuba, watch dogs, oversight bodies and congress and voters hold presidents accountable is based on what they say. yet, right now, we are being told those rules do not apply any more. we are being told not to take the president literally. i'm not making this up. literally, don't take him the words he says seriously. so how is trump's -- that is how trump's former campaign manager corey alllewandowski said yesterday. take a listen.

folks, it's not just corey or trump supporters. the president-elect himself is basically telling us not to take him at his word. in fact, he did it yesterday when he toured a carrier plant in indiana to tout an agreement to save roughly a thousands jobs there. trump said he was spurred to act because a factory worker told "nbc nightly news" that trump made a campaign in indiana. here is that promise from april. >> i am going to bring jobs back. we are bringing jobs back to our country. we are not going to let carrier leave. >> that is a pretty clear trump if you take him at his word. but trump warned us yesterday, don't do that. >> then they played my statement and i said, carrier will never leave, but that was a euphemism.

i was talking about carrier like other all companies from here on in. when they played it, i said i did make it but i didn't mean it quite that way. >> okay. how do you decipher president-elect donald trump? some trump supporters say they have the answer and as far as we can can tell that answer may have been first been coined on "mtf daily" in august when we interviewed republican strategist brad todd. no relation. >> the voters take donald trump seriously as a candidate but don't take him literally. the press takes him literally bl but not seriously. >> peter thiel did it last august. how do you take a president seriously if you don't take him literally? he is commanding a nuclear arsenal in 48 days and with that logic how do you interrupt anything trump says and no take him to his words when he tells "the new york times" he disavows

white nationalists or says this about racist. >> don't do it. that's terrible. i'm going to bring this country together. >> they are harassing latinos, muslims. >> i am so saddened to hear that and i say stop it. if it -- if it helps, i will say this and i'll say it right to the camera, stop it. >> look. this is a problem that is going to frame the trump presidency and by extension the future of american politics. seriously? literally and figuratively. let's dive into this topic with tonight's panel. dan balls and ruth marcus and michael steele. he is a former rnc chairman and subscriber of "the washington post." >> ha ha. >> appreciate it. i still get the ink on my fingers. >> good. this even goes to there is a comedian, a muslim comedian who just wrote up something for buzzfeed and sitting next to

eric trump and asked him about the muslim ban and he is quoting him, he's a comedian, don't take all of that literally. dan balls, this is a challenge for all of us at this table. >> of course, it is. i mean, we are in a business in which we seek the truth and we try to hold people accountable for things they say they will do or don't do. i don't know how we begin to judge. i mean, i think that all we can do is continue to go with the standards that we have applied for many, many years, which is if somebody says something, particularly the president of the united states, we assume he or she means it. >> by the way, we didn't always take him literally when ed things. when he called obama the founder of isis, plenty of people, including somebody who is our colleague here at msnbc off and on, hugh hewitt. here is an excerpt of a member of the conservative media here

hugh hue w hugh. listen to this. >> he is the founder of isis. he is founder of isis, okay? he's the founder! >> so, ruth, that is it! >> i need to collect myself here. >> by the way, he is three days later, he said what are you talking about? i never meant it that way. >> that is why i actually love this carrier exchange because it was this moment where donald trump's first instinct was to say, i never said that! and then he was confronted with the tape of donald trump saying that. his second instinct was to say i said it but it was a euphemism. look it up, mr. president-elect. not a euphemism kind of just wasn't really being serious. now he has managed to do it. i guess he can tell us that no harm there. but it is going to be a constant, constant challenge for us in the news media. we are used to -- we have had

presidents before who said things that aren't exactly true. ronald reagan was famous for telling stories that might not have been -- they might have been a little more hollywood than they were fact. but this is difference and it also comes at a time when we have got this explosion of fake news and we have got people getting our news in silos so it's at a very dangerous time. we need to do our jobs. >> michael, look. there was people had a lot of fun reading the pakistani readout with the phone call with donald trump. >> yes, yes. >> but this is a case where the pakistani prime minister is tag the words literally in diplomacy. >> they matter. >> yeah, they do. >> this is going to be the collision here that he has got to deal with. >> it's a serious one because donald trump is going to say something off the cuff that some world leaders are going to take seriously and literally. it could be a real problem on an international level. but you touched on something at the end of that clip that i think is the most important.

on matters that really cut to the bone for a lot of americans, race, for example, would he believe you or can we believe you now when you say you're not these things and that you support these other things or you don't support that? you can't pick and choose here. that is the problem. donald trump is trying to pick and choose when he wants to be serious about something and not serious about something. it will be a problem on the international stage and clearly be a problem here on the domestic stage. not just for the media but for a lot of his supporters out there who are going to get whip-sawed between today's opinion and tomorrow's fact. >> this is the man who told us that he knew how to be presidential and when to be presidential. and that readout of the call with pakistan was really appalling. maybe it just -- needs to come with a warning do not take our president literally or seriously, speak to a grown-up, lower down the food chain. >> one of the problems he is used to speaking in that readout of the pakistani call. it's the way donald trump speaks

about all kind of things. >> you're great when you talk to him. you're fantastic. over here, hate the media, can't stand them. we have all had these experiences with him personally and did he it with the pakistani prime minister. >> as ruth and michael suggest you can't do that as president of the united states. you are in a different position and you have to be able to make that pivot alone. >> is there somebody who is going to tell him that? >> apparently there are people inside telling him that now and does it take it and internalize it in a way it manifest the next public gathering he has and the answer is not so much. >> maybe people are not telling him that because they are parroting back what he says at this forums. >> i have to play another clip. this is one of his paid supporters i guess that appears on another channel. listen to what scotty nell hughes who is a paid person by cnn to be a trump supporter. listen to what she said about facts.

>> listen to that construction there at the end. people believe they have facts to back it up. >> therefore, i will say it. whether or not i can materialize those facts. >> i was getting e-mails and calls long before donald trump made this accusation about illegal voting and i'm sure you did too. >> oh, yeah. >> the reason she was ahead in the popular vote millions of illegal undocumented had voted. >> when you get the toxic intersection of that stuff bubbling up in this fake news set of venues, and then the president-elect amplifying it,

that is when you're in the danger zone. >> you asked if somebody around him who can stop it or will tell him no. at the harvard conference this week on the campaign, corey lewandowski was asked about one of the -- i can't remember whether it was judge curiel or another episode where trump went off the rails. he said he had advised trump not to do that and trump did it any way. >> it does seem as if the only effective way to put the small chain governor on him is to be a supporter that criticizes him in public and seems newt gingrich has decided to play that role. >> newt figures i'll spend, 15, 20 hours in the dog house. >> he might listen. >> he might listen, exactly right. >> temporarily. >> you feel like kellyanne conway did that during the campaign ever once in a while send him a message on an appearance show. >> we are laughing here and i'm sounding more perturbed than usual but it's not a laughing matter but a serious matter. donald trump is going to be the

president of the united states. it's really incumbent on all of us as americans to want him to be the best donald trump and the best president he can be. i might disagree with him on a lot of things but he cannot conduct himself in this immature and undisciplined way. >> are others in the political supporters of his, i'm not saying i'm sure democrats are not doing this with him but are republicans going to say cut it out? >> they will have to because let's take infrastructure, for example. if the president really wants to push through a trillion dollar infrastructure bill, the house may be reticent and so might the congress. if he gets over on the facts about the situation, it then puts them in a bigger box. it binds them with the base that maybe what the president is wanting and binds them with their donors and other supporters who may not. yeah, you got to be very careful. look, when you've got all three, the white house, the senate and

the house, this is the ballet dance of balanlet dances. >> run of the reasons the republican parties is in charge of the house and senate they got to run an ad that used politifact for president obama as lie of the year. they ran in 2012 ran some of those ads -- excuse me, 2014 they ran those ads and again in 2016. dan balls? >> yeah, but we are in a different place with donald trump. that is one of the things we have seen for as long as he was a candidate and now that he is president-elect. he operates under different rules and he gets away with things that others haven't. i agree with ruth. i mean, we have to stay vigilant. i think in some ways the more people pressing, the more he'll dig in and resist. >> let me ask this, though. how much of this is bannon in his ear, go ahead and keep doing it? the president will go crazy and start looking like school marms

and acting like that and running around poor pinocchio's pants are on fire and middle america says the media is always complaining and it becomes worse. >> maybe but what is our alternative? i want to emphasize that it's not just the post-truth situation that is going on but when you watch that rally in cincinnati yesterday where he does everything that -- and because it's not just that bannon is spinning him up or others are, he has a great time doing it. you could see him enjoying himself. >> he loves to rally. >> going back to the whole smear he used to do. >> smear! >> yeah, sorry. can't stop! hostile press and, you know, he didn't look so unhappy when they did the hillary lock her up chant and going back through the polls. >> he didn't do anything about it. >> no, he didn't. >> that was a moment i thought a very gigantic missed opportunity. campaign is over and he didn't do it. >> he raised it.

he brought the subject up. >> the thing he wants to keep those little moments out there so he does not mind when he hears the occasionally lock her up because it tells him that, yes, my reality tv audience still with me on these things. >> we can't forget. he is an outsider anti-establishment candidate. >> yeah. >> and all of this that he does which is to stir up his base of support is aimed to put the establishment on notice on the defensive and as you suggest if everybody becomes a school marm about it, he'll be quite happy with that. >> establishment. people that care about facts have bias. >> he told us on election night he wanted to bind the wounds of division. could somebody bring back that donald trump we saw for 20 second? >> i leave this with folks who are looking for information and not aforeinformation. too many on social media go for the it for affirmation and not information and he is afir

medication consumers. you guys are staying around the hour. how many generals can you fit into one cabinet? the trump cabinet that is. up next we have these recounts going. how are they going and do they matter? we will be back. find a used car without getting ripped off. you could start your search at the all-new carfax.com that might help. show me the carfax. now the car you want and the history you need are easy to find. show me used trucks with one owner. pretty cool. [laughs] ah... ahem... show me the carfax. start your used car search and get free carfax reports at the all-new carfax.com. ...and online content forsagie anafrican women as they try... ...to build their businesses and careers. this windows 10 device, you can configure it in so many... ...different ways it feels like a much more robust... ...computer than the old mac that i used to use. i am totally blind.

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anterior of. the recount is scheduled to begin sometime between tuesday afternoon and wednesday morning of next week. in north carolina it seems like we are going to have to wait a little longer to find out officially who won the governor's race according to our nbc affiliate. election officials in durham county need more time to finish state ordered recount of 90,000

ballots and asking the deadline to finish that recount and have it pushed back until wednesday. by the way, roy cooper, the democrat in that race, has a 10,000 vote lead. the largest recount overturn was a 6,000 vote margin. we be back with the potential problem as donald trump stocks his cabinet. why pause a spontaneous moment? cialis for daily use treats ed and the urinary symptoms of bph. tell your doctor about your medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, or adempas® for pulmonary hypertension,

as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis. we are going to appoint mad dog mattis as secretary of defense. >> donald trump confirming weeks of suspense. general mattis is a retired four star general and retired in

2013. he led cent com. because he is only three years uniform he needs a congressional waiver to serve as defense secretary. he isn't the only general who president-elect trump is surrounding himself these days. he already named mike flynn to be his national security adviser and retired general david petraeus is in the running apparently for secretary of state. so is retired general john kelly. trump said in the campaign he knows more about isis than the generals he seems to be leaning on a lot of them during this transition. the question ask is there a point of too many generals as far as congress is concerned? my next guest from "the washington post" david ignatius who understand why we have these laws. let's go into that. what makes our democracy different from others where we allow the military to be in our governing system and where we

don't. explain the civilian control idea. >> since our founding, we have weary of giving too much power to any executive. there was a fear general washington becoming president would have too much power. interestingly, one of the people who frightened, many political officials as too political, too powerful generals was general patton during world war ii. general douglas macarthur another favorite of donald trump was seen as way too political general and interfering with civilian control. we are now, it appears, assuming that general mattis gets the waiver, going to have a very prominent retired marine general as secretary of defense. first time since george marshall after world war ii. it's going to test the system. civilian control is in part to bring outside eyes. it's to bring outside management control and discipline. the pentagon is probably the hardest management job, i think,

in the country. and it requires a set of skills that's different from being a military commander. >> there is one other reason here. when you basically, if you're a four star general, you've lived your whole adult life in a bubble. being in the military, you are in your own bubble. it's a different publicly abobu >> servants and valet. >> you live in this bubble. another part of civilian control is being in touch with where the american people are, that is something you don't want the generals -- the whole point is keep that separation. and you -- that is another aspect of this. >> i think that is a powerful point. unfortunately in this country since the end of the draft have had a military tribe. it's almost a separate part of our culture. military moms and dads have kids who become soldiers and officers. we as a country feel guilty about it. we stop and applaud when we see

people in uniform walking through airports. but i think reinforces the separateness. i think one important thing that general mattis, i've heard him express concern about this want to do is bring the military into american life more, something i've heard from him and mike -- a former chairman. >> i love the idea of the selective service make everybody eligible. if you're going to do it, not men just men and women and maybe something to that. >> one thing general mattis, soon to be secretary mattis bring to the country an appreciation of the warrior culture. i have not met in decades of traveling with the american military officers, somebody who embodies the traditional precepts of military command in quite the way mattis does. he remind me of world war ii commande commanders. he's not a recent general. >> to be nicknamed the warrior

monk my guess no general you have enjoyed having off-the-record conversation with you, then the warrior monk general mattis because he is well read and intellectually curious. >> rich conversations. he is probing. he is reflective and always willing to criticize conventional wisdom, political wisdom. one really good thing about general mattis i would note and not widely understood. he had been willing to fire subordinates. the military too often has a log rolling and get along and go along culture. bob gates is great strength as secretary of defense was that he fired people. >> two generals. >> afraid of him. >> president obama -- >> and a service secretary. >> yeah. >> and mattis is the kind of guy who has done that. he did it on the way to iraq and he might do it again and help him run the pentagon. >> i'm with you. i think politically mattis likely to have support both sides of the aisle and waiver should not be a problem unless he does go with a general at

state. doesn't this complicate the issue? if you have general petraeus and general flynn and general mattis, i have to say if you're a civilian what is their solution? a military solution. that is the fear. >> i think too militarized government is not good for the country. general petraeus i think is a genuinely talented person. i've watched him close up lead. donald trump said we don't win enough and i want winners. the brand name for winning in combat in our generation is david petraeus. it is true having too many generals, three and four star generals at the top of an administration is going to make people worry. >> let me hit you with one final issue which is what is it like? so you have the chairman of the joints chief and both generals. dunford, mattis was his commanding officer at one time. >> they were fighting under mad

dog mattis. >> the joints of chief is a military adviser. will he take orders from him? >> the relationship between the chairman and the secretary of defense is collegial. you get fights with the white house. i think i'd worried more about the national security adviser and white house. we have had national security advisers who got into some real fights with the pentagon when he said it's important to have political civilian control. that will be harder for general flynn as the national security adviser. the interesting thing to me is the way in which donald trump has reached out to skill sets that he doesn't have. >> yep. got to give him credit on that one. >> he has chosen in general mattis one of the more generally eccentric figures in washington. that's interesting. >> it is. >> well-read monkish figure. >> i do think he is going to be

pentagon press conferences are going to be hip again. put that way. i know i can't wait for it. david ignatius, always a pleasure, sir. thank you. tuesday's meeting between president-elect trump and mitt romney just dinner and a show? or is trump still seriously thinking about secretary of state mitt romney? stay tuned. i work 'round the clock.

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carrier deal and trump's cabinet picks and the campaign promise to drain the swamp, to define what that means, a lot more on mtp as well. and also more on "mtp daily" but first here is a friday market rap. >> stocks ended week mostly flat. dow spell 21 points and s&p gained a fraction of the point and nasdaq added four points. the labor department says hiring is solid. the economy added 178,000 jobs last month and unemployment rate falling to lowest number in nine years from 4.9 to 4.6% but experts say the drop is mostly because many jobless people have stopped looking for work. the latest payroll report has done little to change the prediction that the federal reserve will hike interest rates on december 14th. that is first from msnbc. if you're totally blind, you may also be struggling with non-24. calling 844-844-2424.

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secretary of state side show. as well as trump has done in filling his cabinet. a fairly speedy rate. the secretary of state search is something else. apparently he is expanding the search for secretary of state. again. but the former republican nominee and rival mitt romney isn't completely out of the running, apparently just yet. here is what trump had to say about mitt romney last night on fox news. >> we got along very well. he was very, very nice. very nice in terms of his remarks afterwards and i think it was very good. we have some terrific people and terrific people to come. >> but, yesterday, at trump's victory rally in ohio chants of no romney erupted from the back of the crowd. trump's campaign manager of course, has been bashing romney for days. but that was just before a much talked about dinner and what was arguably some public grubling you could call it from mitt romney when he made it his mission to tank trump's

candidacy a candidacy. to try to answer this question of why is mitt romney doing this? joining me now is someone who has done extensive research on both men. michael cranish of "the washington post" and author of "the real romney." you have written a book about both men and specifically so much time covering mitt romney. why is mitt romney independence in working for donald trump? >> mitt romney has lost the last two times he ran for president and donald trump was successful. in mitt romney's eyes he still wants to serve. last thing he did was governor of massachusetts a small state and still wants to be out there. this is a job -- he's not a great candidate. he didn't connect with people like donald trump was. being appointed to a position is attractive and one of the most important jobs in federal government. >> nothing like failed former massachusetts governor who republican presidential nominees and secretary of state. >> not for john kerry. >> this idea, though, that did romney truly believe -- taking

trump at his word he is seriously considered or does he think he is being played when he watches the campaign manager publicly, apparently with permission, bash him? >> the thing they have in common they are both salesmen and spent their lives making deals and think they with make a deal with each other and sell themselves to each other. they have a common background. if you're put together a dating app and create a romance they both have successful fathers and trump was not successful for a time and now has been. they do have a commonality of background. you look at them and say they have an awful lot in common and can get along if you put aside the harsh words in the campaign. >> there wasn't a successful president in a lifetime that didn't have a successful father. let me ask you this. so romney works so hard to defeat him. not just saying what he said during the primary.

he basically helped evan mcmullen, this, you know, unknown candidate, get on the ballot in a handful of states and do well enough in utah with romney donors giving him money that could have cost trump the election. it was more than just saying things. it was doing things. >> so from trump's standpoint, he is quashing one of the most vocal critics he has, mitt romney. he can say basically i won and romney had to come and kiss the ring as you said. for mitt romney he sort of been through this before. he ran against ted kennedy for the u.s. senate back in massachusetts, and lost that race. they had a very vitriolic relationship and very harsh and years later mitt romney was very supportive -- excuse me ted kennedy was very supportive of mitt romney's health care issue in massachusetts. >> he's in the photo. >> when mitt romney came to that press conference and gave the support, ted kennedy was there giving that support, ted kennedy said this is good for climate

change because hell just froze over. saying that he said, look, we never thought this would happen but here i am supporting mitt romney and sort of the same thing. >> let me ask you about donald trump. another theory out here that trump has been frustrated about the lack of respect he got over the years, whether it's from major business leader or major political leaders. the ultimate i told you so tour. so he's had major ceos would never give him the time of day and suddenly kiss the ring and mitt romney kissing the ring and trump is enjoying this moment. how much of that do you buy? >> did he the reality show "the apprentice." a lot of people made the people he is getting people in trump tower or trump property to like you say kiss the ring. he is a showman and what he does and theater of it all and seems natural to other people who watched the transition seems very unnatural. >> if mitt romney doesn't get this, look. obviously, he is looking for a second act. if not this, what is it?

>> if he doesn't get this maybe make him a special envoy to solve a particular problem or maybe mitt romney says we had a good meeting and i respect the fact he did what i couldn't do and that is he won the presidency. i think if he doesn't get it, he'll play some kind of role and maybe they will still talk but the vitriol of the campaign from their perspective is over. >> do you think he'll regret giving up the platform to be a credible critic? >> for mitt romney's perspective and trump lost mitt romney saw himself as elder statesman and come in and fix the party. that didn't happen so he is looking now at the possibilities. he is 69. he is not going to reason for president again. he has to look at where his future is in this party of which donald trump is now the leader. >> he doesn't get it, does he think this has been a successful moment for him? >> certainly been embarrassing for him. he's not going to win an office again unless he nominated to one. for him maybe he sees it as i

can't lose. i've got to basically make myself viable again so it's a little bit of rehabilitation for himself in that he can now say, look. i got along with donald trump and respect what he did and he is the leader of us all. >> michael cranish, thank you for coming in. >> nice to have me. >> one color example of how to make things so much simpler has made them so much more implicated. that is coming up. go, go!

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welcome back. i got to admit i'm looking forward to this weekend. why? it's no surprise. i'm obsessed right now about the college football playoffs. this weekend we are going to find out who the final four teams are with this new system year two that makes figuring out who is number one apparently so much easier it used to be we watched the bowl games and what? i'll tell you what. with waited for a bunch of self-important sports writer with too much power tell us who they thought was the number one team. that's what -- guess what. very unsatisfying so now we have the college football playoffs. add water to three easy steps to deciding a national championship. this year if colorado beats washington tonight a two loss team is getting into the final four. should it be washington? but they lost -- excuse me should it be colorado? ly lost to michigan but michigan didn't win the big ten title and should it be penn state who beat ohio state or colorado who lost

to michigan and beating michigan when their star quarterback was hurt. see how easy this new system is? simply put, pick the two loss team that beat the big ten champ and didn't lose to another two loss team and even didn't win the big ten title because they were losing before losing to a team who may or may i may not get in because they lost the conference. can we just have the rose bowl back? we will be right back. discover card. i'm not a customer, but i'm calling about that credit scorecard. give it. sure! it's free for everyone. oh! well that's nice! and checking your score won't hurt your credit. oh! i'm so proud of you.

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ltry align probiotic.n your digestive system? for a non-stop, sweet treat goodness, hold on to your tiara kind of day. get 24/7 digestive support, with align. the #1 doctor recommended probiotic brand. now in kids chewables. welcome back. as democrats look for new leadership, one big name is taking his name out of the running for dnc chairman. howard keen said this afternoon he is no longer going to seek an attempt to reclaim the chairmanship. but he promised to fully support the next chairman. he didn't say who. three other candidates who want the job are each making their case to state party leaders at a future of the party forum that is actually going on right now. here is a quick taste. >> we shrank our map as to where we can win. we cannot be a party that is trying to not to lose. >> this need to be the very last

election cycle in which the presidential candidate takes over the dnc. no more turning over the checkbook to a presidential campaign. that is absolutely absurd that is what we do every time. >> time for the lid. the panel is back dan balls and ruth martin and michael steele. it's always funny, michael. you've been there! >> good luck with that! >> give me a break, right? >> oh, my god. >> what is the reality of that? >> the reality is when the presidential nominee becomes the guy! trust me, that checkbook belongs to him or her! >> very quickly. i want to move on to the harvard conference. dan, you are in the middle of something crazy! but very quickly, ruth. keith ellison, is his candidacy toast? the adl came out noting some remarks he made about israeli six years ago. he struggled to explain them. there has been some other folks and they are very upset at schumer forri supporting him.

is pressure building to suddenly stop ellison movement? >> it sure feels that way. you know, the last thing that the party needs is to have a chairman at the time when you need to rebuild the party that is going to be helping tear apart, you know, a big constituency of it. >> yeah. >> chuck, i talked to somebody up at harvard yesterday who was heading out to this meeting and who said that he thinks that the eventualal winner will be somebody who is not yet formally declared. >> thank you for saying that! >> that and secretary of state. >> i'm with you. i would say this of those three up there. keep an eye on jim harrison of south carolina. somebody comes from the state party lineup because he has also worked in washington too so a little -- he's got a little bit of a foot in both place. harvard, dan. i don't know what to say. i can just say as somebody who used to doed harvard stuff and couldn't wait to read the

transcripts as a 22-year-old. you learn so much. it's always people at the height of their game and journalists at the height of their game. and you feel like, boy, there is something to learn. you tell me. i didn't learn a thing! i just saw a lot of screaming. >> well, i've been going to these i just saw a lot of screaming. >> i've been going to these off and on, i don't know, since '88, i guess. and i've never seen one like what we went through yesterday. i co-moderated the session with andrea mitchell. >> the fight. the infamous fight. let me play it. let me play this, get everybody reacclimated. >> if providing a platform for white supremacists makes me a brilliant tactician, i'm glad to have lost. >> do you think i ran a campaign where a white supremacist -- >> i do. >> do you think you could have had a decent meng for the working class white voters.

>> what did you do at that point? >> there were three of us. look, we knew this was going to be a tough session. this was obviously a rough, raw campaign. and you know that on both sides, there are still things that haven't -- i don't know what the right word is -- healed, been solved. it's not just that it hasn't healed on the side of the clinton people -- >> no. >> -- there's grievance on the side of the trump people as well. we knew it was going to be hot. it got hotter than we thought. there were times you kind of have to let people air it out. we tried at certain points to cool it down. but it was what it was. it was a reflection of the campaign we just went through. >> that's true. i just don't know what historians are going to take away from it. even in bush-gore, it was one of the most fruitful and honest post-election things i've ever seen. and it was wonderfully done. there was no bitterness. >> usually there is a degree of

respect that one side has for the other as professionals. >> that's true. >> and, you know, whether you're unhappy with the recount or happy with the recount, you haven't -- the campaign itself was not the kind of vicious episode, vicious saga that this one was. >> it was personal. this was a continuation of what we've seen throughout the last few years of our politics. it's now personal. i don't like you. i don't like what you stand for. i don't like what you believe in. it's very personal. so when you get them in that situation, you called my candidate a racist. well, your candidate is a racist. you're saying i ran -- and it de involves into what we've seen -- and i guarantee you around thanksgiving tables, i know friends who had to cut off conversation at thanksgiving on politics, because it was still so raw, to your point, and personal. >> i guess the part of this was, it seems like nobody -- nobody

at this -- there were some of the media conversation that i saw, nobody is showing humility up there. >> no. >> not the winners and whoever was representing our industry up there. >> frankly, i think that the clinton people, and who were devastated by this defeat, and felt, i suppose, that they let secretary clinton down, but also in one way or another they had failed to do what they were supposed to do. i think in part at this conference, as you know, these have become less candid over the years and more scripted. so they lacked some of the values. >> too public, i hate to say it as a journalist, but it's become too public to get the candor in there. >> but for the clinton people, i think they were probably overly protective, understandably so, of hillary clinton as a candidate. >> that's an important point. i don't think they've come to grips -- that's not true, they can't come to grips publicly about it. this is about her. i've had conversations

individually that all have said basically, there's nothing we could do about her. >> jam palmeri said to focus on e-mails. as i have for, you know, a really lock time now. and she said she was sorry that she had legit mated that story. come on, i think that's not the right answer. >> no, it's not. well, i have to say, i normally look forward to -- i don't want any part of that podcast, any part of that transcript. i hope it -- >> there are other parts that are -- >> i lived it. thank you, guys. when we come back, catching a big break. a big fat tax break, that is, if you wiped up in the president's cabinet. i'll explain.

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in case you missed it, working a government job, even a high-profile secretary cabinet post doesn't bring in the kind of pay, check that folks like steve or wilbur ross are used to getting. but if you are a big billionaire ceo, choosing to spend time in public service, there is a silver lining for you. it comes in the form of a special task break. if you are forced to sell stock because of conflicts of interest rules, there is an interesting tax loophole that allows you to defer paying capital gains on that stock, that's the money the government comes calling for when you make money on a stock sale, the irs doesn't get a dime of those proceeds if you reinvest in certain government securities or mutual funds.

the tax man does come calling eventually. you have to pay the original cap gains bill if you ever sell those reinvested taxes. it could be a super nice perk. it's better to pay taxes later than now, $100 million is going to be less over time. the longer you way to pay uncle sam, the better the deal is for you. if you've got a lot of exxon stock or goldman sachs stocks, it gives you the ability to diversify your assets. if you hold on until you die, the capital gains tax never kicks in. the provision was designed with the idea that wealthy people shouldn't suffer financial loss for choosing to go into government or being forced to divest. so call it a champagne problem with a solution that for some can buy a lot more champagne eventually. that's all for tonight.

we'll be back monday with more "mtp daily." catch "meet the press" on your local nbc station. mike pence, should be interesting. great run. "with all due respect" starts right now. i'm john. >> and i'm mark. "with all due respect" -- well, just run the tape. >> i'm i'm donald trump. >> oh, wait, who's line is it. >> this is mike hall prin. >> with all due respect. >> to snoop dogg. >> to megan trainor. >> to kanye west. >> to sharknado 3. >> john tra vote a. >> chris christie. >> yeah!