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limited access. >> this is -- it's going to go down as probably one of the worst fires that they have gone to. i know that the oakland hills fire, we lost 25 people during that fire. but as a single structure fire, i don't think oakland has had a fatality at this magnitude in a while. >> let's go to nbc's steve patterson following the developments from our los angeles bureau. i guess let's start from the top here, steve. what do we know as far as what started this fire, and then what are you hearing from investigators? >> well, sheinelle, at this point, you said it. right now the remnants of this fire are still fire too intense for firefighters to fully get a grip on the scene. so first things first. they're paring down hot spots, checking trouble spots, trying to get smoldering down so they can do the work to try to make sure that people weren't further trapped in that building, a count on the number of victims,

combing through the scene, looking for. at this point, the number is 25. now that's the number of people that are unaccounted for from this structure to list. the fire investigators built. that does not mean those people are dead. that does not mean that those people are missing. many of them may have self-transported to a local hospital. but that's the number that they're working with. 50 to 100 people were estimated to be at this party or some sort of social gathering. that was last night. fire crews got the call at about 11:30. they head to the scene there, they find the structure fully involved. fire sprinklers are not going off as far as early reporting that we're hearing at this point. fire alarms are not going off, so they make entry to the building, and they find a number of dead. most on the second floor. we spoke to a few survivors on-scene. i want to play this snd for you right now. this is a survivor who is witnessing this happen last night.

>> we tried to, like, figure out where the smoke is coming from. and then we saw where the fire was. it was on the back left corner of the space. and started yelling, and trying to get everyone out. i mean, it all happened really quick. the fire went up really, really, really quickly. >> so crews still paring down the flames at this point. and the smoldering. investigators are en route to the scene. but the engineers still have make sure the structure is safe enough for them to do their work. so still a lot of work to be done on the actual fire before the investigation can get under way. but they expect that number to possibly increase as they continue to go inside that structure. sheinelle? >> nbc's steve patterson. stay close. we'll certainly check in with you again throughout the hour. joining me now on the phone is matias gaffaney, a reporter. what are you seeing? >> reporter: i'm actually not at the fire scene right now. >> you're not there. where are you?

>> reporter: i'm several blocks away at -- where a lot of survivors and friends are gathering to try to find the unaccounted and console each other. >> tell me -- can you give us some information as far as what survivors have told you, what it was like to be in the building as the flames spread? it's interesting to me, you know, people are really starting to wake up to this news, and find out what's going on. so what can you tell us? >> reporter: i haven't spoken to an actual survivor yet. i've spoken to friends of people who are unaccounted for, and what i can tell you is, this is in music collective. this is a two-story warehouse space that is a lot of artists. these who are focusing on music share the space. and on the second floor is where deejays were spinning music for this party upwards of 100 people attending. and what i was told from one of

the friends who had spoken to the survivors, they believe an electrical fire started in the basement and the fire spread quickly upward and according to the fire chief, there may have been a choke point where there is -- the chief called it a make shift fire case -- fire staircase going to the second floor that may have caused an issue for people getting out. >> you know, you may not have the answer to this, but i'm going ask you and maybe we can get it in an hour or two ahead. i know that friends and family members of party-goers have been on social media since early this morning. a lot of people posting images and messages on facebook and instagram about loved ones or loved ones unaccounted for. is there anything you can tell us or find out about where people can actually go to get accurate information, especially where social media is concerned? facebook or -- >> reporter: right now, the fire department or police haven't told us anything that they're setting up. there is a sheriff substation a

few blocks away where people are gathering. there is a list of all the unaccounted posted. inside there, people hutddled i blankets, many crying, people outside smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee. not many want to talk to the media. a lot of them are pretty shell-shocked. >> sure. >> and emotional. that's where they're going to get information right now. but they're pretty hungry for information themselves, because no one is able to get into the building. the roof collapsed. it's just unsafe to go in to find out exactly how many bodies are in there. one other side note -- pardon me, there is a subway going right by on the l.a. track. hard to hear. but there were a bunch of mannequins in there that caused firefighters to -- you can imagine with recovery that caused some issues, as well. so there's a lot of questions that haven't been answered at this point. >> you're giving us good

information. i realize you're just getting there. so keep us posted. we'll check in with you in the hours ahead. thank you. >> reporter: all right, thanks. now to politics and the other day's big headline. new today, another member of congress saying he will vote against the waiver needed to allow general james mattis to serve as the president-elect's defense secretary. here's what democratic congressman john yarmuth told us earlier. >> we in the house get to vote on that waiver and right now i would not vote to support the waiver. i think that restriction on some seven years is in -- is in place for a very sound reason. and, again, somebody without the kind of management skill that you have to have to run that department, you don't necessarily get that in the position of general. you're certainly managing in one respect. but you're not managing, again, $600 billion a year. so i would rather see somebody with management experience. >> meanwhile, new reaction from the president-elect's team on

his controversial call with the president of taiwan yesterday. the ten-minute call was captured in these pictures released by the taiwanese government late last night. here is kellyanne conway hours after the transition team told reporters about the call. >> this is the president-elect, this will be his administration, we'll be commander-in-chief and president of the united states imminently now. and he either will disclose or not disclose the full contents of that conversation. but he's well aware of what u.s. policy has been. >> trump fired back at critics on twitter, saying quote, interesting how the u.s. sells taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but i should not accept a congratulatory call. it was among several he had with world yesterday. the philippines extended travel invitations. howard dean says he, quote, doesn't want his old job. he made the announcement during a recorded message at a gathering in denver featuring others vying for dnc chair,

including congressman keith ellison. >> here's my promise to you. i am not going to be a candidate for the democratic national committee chairmanship. i think it could possibly be divisive. i have a grand child now, but i am dedicate today fully using as much time as i can to support whoever the chairman is. >> let's bring in nbc's kelly o'donnell. let's start with this fallout today from this phone call with the taiwanese president. first things first, what's the reaction from the credibility current administration? >> they did not know in advance. i reached out to sources at the white house who basically say that they want to make sure the message is clear that the current u.s. policy has not changed toward china. and by extension toward taiwan, which means the u.s. formally recognizes only the people's republic of china. we have an informal and business relationship with taiwan. but this is a very sensitive issue. we have to remember how sort of

contentious the u.s./china relationship is to begin with. so they are not wanting to talk about this. the chinese foreign minister has said they let it be known, they were not pleased with this call. the white house isn't commenting on this. it's been a while since a phone call could stir this kind of international turmoil. but it does suggest a couple different scenarios. either donald trump intentionally wanted to sort of rattle the international norms by making this call or receiving this call, which was a range. these are scheduled calls. >> that's a good point staffers bring up. >> yes. and clearly, taiwan wants to highlight this, because it elevates their status in the world. to be seen as on equal footing with a future president. so there are many layers to this international -- that are being opened this weekend. >> with that said, is it too early to talk about what kind of precedent this sets? >> most concerned about it say it does set an unnerving precedent, because we know not since 1979 when the u.s. broke with taiwan and did not have a

formal relationship, there hasn't been a president-to-president phone call. there hasn't been anything like this. and when you talk about diplomacy and put decades in the sentence and say nothing has happened, that really is a big deal in that world. what does it suggest? we know donald trump has often talked about china with respect to currency and the economy. but the u.s. also needs china to be a stabilizing force on north korea to be part of the permanent five on -- at the u.n. security council. so while there are tensions and difficulties and awkward moments like this weekend with china, the u.s. also needs china. so if donald trump is wading into something that perhaps he's not ready to fully take on, it's about six and a half weeks until he becomes president. that's obviously going to set off fireworks. >> so is it fair to say he was certainly aware of the ramifications when he made this call and particularly the fact that he tweeted about it. because the call could have happened and maybe we didn't talk about it as much because he didn't tweet it but that's what set off this firestorm.

>> and this news release. this was sort of tucked into the final paragraph, as if, you know, hiding in plain sight. he could have had the call and not disclosed it, but we know that taiwan wanted to talk about it. so they did disclose it. and his top aides say he is fully briefed on these issues which then raises the question did he do it intentionally, did he ignore the norms? that we don't have a full answer for yet. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell, thank you. for more analysis, let's bring in caitlyn huey-burns, political reporter for real clear politics and associate for the hill. good afternoon to both of you. >> hey, sheinelle. >> niall, i'll start with you. let's start with you on the president-elect's phone call. kelly and i were just talking about this. do you think the obama administration feels it's in a position where they'll have to calm the chinese leaders on this one? >> i think they may well do. as kelly pointed out, this is an extremely sensitive issue. it's a major break with precedent. we know that the chinese made representations to the white house. they described those, i think,

as solemn representations. so it's obviously something that has caused a real stir. and, again, as kelly alluded to, it's not quite clear whether this was something planned, how much strategic thought was involved in this break with the american tradition. >> caitlyn, i want to bring you in. the dnc calls it a threat to national security. and some republicans like senator ted cruz, for example, are praising it. take a look at this tweet he tweeted out this morning. quote, i would much rather have donald trump talking to president zi than to cubaa's raul castro. that's what he said. is political reaction falling along party lines here? >> it could. i mean, donald trump, of course, campaigned as someone who was going to or suggested kind of shuffling traditional alliances. we saw that with his talk of pulling out of nato, for example, and some rekindling relations with russia for -- as another example. so it may not be entirely

surprising that he is going this route. but, again, niall and kelly bring up the critical point, which is how intentional this was. whether this was a mark of a real policy shift or whether it was simply she called me and i answered the phone. and i think that presents a greater challenge for this incoming administration. and also for whomever donald trump picks as secretary of state. >> real quickly, i thought it was an important note and i talked with kelly about it here and on the "today" show. these aren't just random calls. these are coordinated calls here. >> right. absolutely. >> go ahead, caitlyn. >> i was just going to say, absolutely. and this is part of the transition process, of course. that president-elect traditionally talking with foreign leaders. but the fact that donald trump has been so vocal about some of these issues and calls and about the transition process taking to

twitter, we just really haven't seen this kind of thing from other presidents-elect. >> good point. niall, another hot topic. i want to turn to the lingering bitterness, a fair word between the clinton and trump teams. take a listen to this exchange between karen finney and kellyanne conway. >> i can tell you're angry, but wow. hash tag he's your president. how is that? i was asked 100 times on tv, they're all here, maybe 1,000 times, will he accept the election results. will you? will you ever accept the election? will you tell your protesters he's their president too? >> hash tag, if he's going to be my president, then he needs to show me that white supremacy is not acceptable -- >> 1 million times you know. now you're just lying. get out of here. >> woo! niall trump's team denying this appeal to white nationalist groups. what is the conventional wisdom on this issue and is this just sour grapes or is she on to something here? >> i think there is a combination of a few things. i think that there is a

perception that some people on the trump team notably steve bannon, are -- at least not overly reticent about appealing to white nationalists. but the broader issue is one where there is this lingering bitterness between the two campaigns. frankly, i don't think the clinton campaign can quite believe that they lost to donald trump. and these are, you know, professionally accomplished people who are going to go down in history as the team that lost to donald trump. and that's a very bitter pill for them to swallow. and i think that's why we're seeing some of those very fractious exchanges. >> good word there. caitlyn at trump's ohio. thank you. the other night he denounced hate groups while reading from the teleprompter. does this satisfy critics of what they say is a devicic campaign or is it too little too late? >> i don't think that will necessarily silence trump critics. i think the criticism will linger into the new

administration. and i think part of these bitter feelings reside in the fact that clinton led and is still leading by a significant margin in the popular vote. and so you have a lot of these bitter feelings surrounding that idea that she won the popular vote by a lot. and so i think those will continue. trump's tour, his kind of thank you or victory tour is significant. we have seen president-elect's in the past kind of take this route. remember obama took the train from illinois to washington. and that sort of thing. but donald trump is still very much in a campaign type of mode. he's been talking about his victory, talking about even the indiana primary when he was there to announce the carrier deal. i think it will take longer for these tensions to kind of simmer a little bit. and donald trump has made clear that he is not quite ready to bury some of these hatchets himself. he is very much proud of this win and is reminding people of

that. >> almost out of time here. but i want to get mitt romney in here. niall, will he be secretary of state? what's your thought? >> my guess would be not. there's clearly these attempts to put mitt romney front and center. there are a number of people campaigning for that job, including rudy guiliani. i personally talked with people who don't believe it's going to be romney, but i've been wrong about lots of things in this complain about president-elect trump so far. >> i have a stack of questions for you. never a shortage of content. caitlyn huey-burns and niall stanage, thank you for talking with me. still ahead, advice disavowing the kkk. i'll ask a trump supporter about this. next. don and i met because i'm a volunteer for meals on wheels. we had an instant connection. what was that? i said, "delivering to you is always a special treat." oh. company, companionship, food... we all need those things. when we get in that spot in life, it's kind of nice to have 'em there.

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he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. what donald trump did yesterday and in talking to the

taiwanese president is the kind of loose cannon behavior that has gotten the world on very, very shaky. the only people around him are political operatives and not policy people. and he needs to get some policy people, some very, very experienced, savvy people, or he's going to make some critical mistakes. >> that was kentucky congressman, john yarmuth,eact to go donald trump's diplomatic miss step. the phone call with taiwan's leader prompting some to raise questions about the president-elect's foreign policy knowledge. let's talk about this a bit. joining me now is former georgia congressman jack kingston. thank you for talking with me this afternoon. >> well, thanks for having me. >> how do you explain this diplomatic, should i call it a faux pas by donald trump? was it a blunder or was he aware of the controversy this could create? >> he is certainly aware and it won't be any surprise to you i disagree with the gentleman from kentucky. i think it was a smart move. china has been very notorious in terms of hacking on cyber

security and in terms of intellectual property rights, the sea lines in japan and the china sea and really in the taiwanese strait, so i think sending a signal that this is a 37-year-old policy set by richard nixon underscored by jimmy carter and the rest of them. and just like obama did with cuba, it's time to send the signal that, you know, a new sheriff in town. we're going to talk to taiwan. it's okay to abandon a 37-year-old policy. remember what obama said repeatedly about cuba. that embargo was started before i was born. it's okay to let it go and move to another chapter. so i think talking to taiwan is very appropriate fort president-elect. if he chooses to do so. and i would say the same thing with his interactions with the leaders in the philippines and pakistan. this is his presidency. he's going to make some changes rather than just continue the status quo when it comes to foreign policy. >> i think it's interesting you keep using the word squgs signal," i was going to use that too. the fact he's obviously letting

them know that things may not be business as usual. what are the risks, in your opinion? >> well, you don't want to go too far too fast when it comes to diplomacy. china is an extremely important trade partner economically. militarily, we have to keep our eye on them. they're important to that part of the world. so you don't wt to move too fast. i' visited with chinese leadership when i was in congress. they consider taiwan absolutely part of them. that's why they have the one nation policy, the one state policy. but i've also been to taiwan, and met with their leaders. and they believe in their own independence. we have sold them military equipment many times over the years, separate negotiations with taiwan. so it's always been a balancing act and going back to richard nixon when he reopened communication with china, these were sort of the accommodations that had to be made. but i think to readdress those and say -- maybe we should look, maybe not. i think it's appropriate. >> so then in your opinion, does

the president-elect need to as congressman yarmuth said, bring on more policy experts on board to avoid these kinds of actions? i was going to say missteps. if you think he did this on purpose, i don't know if you can call it a misstep. >> i absolutely do not believe it was a misstep. i think he is surrounded by some very smart people already. he knows what he's doing. and you know, again, this is his administration. he is going to do it differently. he's going to do it differently domestically and internationally. the one thing that i would say is somebody who did serve on the foreign operations committee, then on the defense committee, and i visited to many of the hot spots around the world. you do have to be very, very careful. for example, i believe that president obama made a mistake by embracing the arab spring and therefore the muslim brotherhood. and it helped lead to a lot of the instability that we're seeing in the middle east today. but, you know, those kind of mistakes are part of leadership that's going to happen. i do not believe this was a mistake. but i do think -- and agree with mr. yarmuth, a friend of mine

and i respect him, that you do want to have a lot of experts in the room, but it still is mr. trump who is the new president, and it's going to be his policy that sets the tone. >> starting to realize -- you talked about president obama's decision there. they would you be able to consider that a misstep. so it depends on the glasses you're wearing. i want to switch topics. the kkk holding a rally in north carolina today to celebrate trump's win. trump to be fair has disavowed and prejudice on thursday. i want to talk about what a trump transition team member said on-air this morning and get your take. >> the kkk has the right to do it. other groups have the right to come out against the kkk. that's what we're all about. this is america. >> should trump's team really be -- i guess justifying the kkk's right to hold this rally instead of taking a stronger position against the group? >> i don't think so. i think what rene was saying was in the context of the first

amendment, which we would all agree with and respect. but i think at the same time, when david duke endorsed candidate trump, candidate trump denounced it. his first major interview on a national network after he was elected, he looked the camera in the eye and denounced hatred and misbehavior and demonstrations in his name and he did the other night in cincinnati. and he had a very profound statement when he said we do not want to underscore and support the language of bigotry and i think he made a strong statement. i think he's going to continue to. i also think, though, it's -- there is some value in ignoring some of these groups. because the more attention we give them, the more relevant they get. >> you flow, the challenge is the fact that she is saying the kkk is right to hold this rally. i think the challenge is people watch this and they say, where is the anger? where is the passion to say, you know what, no. this is not acceptable. not only just saying, oh, i disavow it. but strongly showing some energy

to where you don't agree with what they're doing. the challenge is when you see someone say, oh, you know what, let's not give energy to it. people are saying, wait a minute, you really? because you don't seem very passionate about it and it doesn't seem to make you angry. >> and you know what, i think you've raised a good point. let me say this. i denounce that. i do not believe that there is room for that kind of hatred and that kind of potential violence and -- you know, the things that the kkk stands for. i do denounce it. and i don't claim to represent the trump campaign per se, but i can as somebody identified with the trump campaign that i do denounce it and i know the trump campaign does, as well. so let me say this. he wants to unify the country. he wants to bring everybody on board. he understands the passion of the protesters and those who don't necessarily embrace his candidacy at this time. if you look at the people he surrounded by right now, he is putting together a very good team, four women, three of them

of color. he is going to have more diversity in the people closest to him, cabinet levels and otherwise. he wants a unified america, so that we do denounce the hatred of kkk. and that's other groups, as well. i mean, groups who incite violence and activism against police officers, and may have contributed to the deaths of some police officers in dallas, for example. we denounce that. it's not good for america, mainstream america should come together and put our best foot forward and give any new president, whether it's obama or whether it's president trump a honeymoon. let's see how they do. >> i have to leave it there. congressman jack kingston, thank you for your time this afternoon. >> thank you. happening now in north dakota, protesters digging in extreme cold to stop the construction of an oil pipeline. and this weekend we're getting a lot of help. this is a live look. we'll take you there in a bit. coaching means making tough choices.

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welcome back. i'm sheinelle jones at msnbc headquarters in new york. breaking news in oakland, california. a large fire broke out at a warehouse party, killing nine people. right now at least 25 people are unaccounted for. firefighters are on the scene at this hour, continuing search efforts. but officials say the structure is too unsafe, and they have limited access. we will continue to monitor the story and will certainly bring you the latest. also happening now, at least 2,000 veterans plan to join activists protesting a multibillion dollar pipeline project near a native american reservation. protesters say the pipeline is an environmental and cultural threat while proponents argue the pipeline will provide jobs and pump money into local economies. msnbc's cal perry where protests have been going for months now. >> reporter: people are battening down the hatches for two reasons. one, monday is the day officials

want people off the land. how people are working on their tents and bringing the tents for winter conditions. two reasons. the first, federal officials want everybody off this land on monday. that's a big day here, see what happens. the other reason, on tuesday there's a cold front coming. and it's already very cold, but temperatures are going to drop into the single digits and they're saying with the wind chill could be minus 20, minus 30 degrees. officials hope these people will leave on their own. but when you talk to folks here, they say they're going to stay for the long haul. you mentioned 2,000 veterans have rsvped. it could be as many as 5,000. they say they'll create a human shield from authorities just down that road about a half mile. it will be interesting to see with the arrival of so many veterans how that changes the dynamic. officials have been telling me, they want to avoid a confrontation. they're very aware of the optics of how it looks with protesters

and that violence that we saw a few weeks ago. so they don't want to move on the camp. at the same time, if their hand is forced and they have to, we could see something on monday. >> i was just about to say, and i don't think you have the answer to it, and we don't really, frankly. but if the feds say you have to move and people say they're not going to move, the feds know how it would look on camera for anything too violent to happen. and then what? >> reporter: right. and that is sort of the big question here, right? people want to stay here. they don't want to move from this land. there's a bigger issue here, too, right? which is there are native american tribes, especially the sioux tribe both in north dakota and south dakota. they believe this is sovereign land. this is a sovereign nation. and these flags behind me are from all the different tribes here. this is the largest gathering of native americans in modern times. and i think people should sort of understand the impact that that has. if you are a federal official or a state trooper, you know, you're up against it here. and these state troopers, they

live here in north dakota. so it's something they'll have to live with after we have gone. >> all right, cal perry, thank you for checking in with us. a lot of eyes on monday. new perspective on whether donald trump's campaign encouraged white supremacists. we'll speak with a former white nationalist next, and get his take. to do the best for your pet, you should know more about the food you choose. with beyond, you have a natural pet food that goes beyond telling ingredients to showing where they come from. beyond assuming the source is safe... to knowing it is. beyond asking for trust... to earning it. because, honestly, our pets deserve it. beyond. natural pet food.

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. the kkk is reportedly holding a rally today in north carolina to celebrate donald trump's presidential win. it's part of a post election

phenomenon that has inspired a few white nationalists and supremacists to tell their stories in the hopes of bringing healing where they once brought hurt. joining me now is the author of "my life after hate," and former white supremacist who now works with serve to unite. thank you for talking with me this afternoon. i'll dig right in. the kkk has planned a celebratory rally this afternoon to celebrate donald trump's win. do you think the group was encouraged through his campaign rhetoric? >> i think it definitely was. trump really hit on a lot of the fear narrative that drives the white supremacist movement. fear of immigrants, fear of muslim people. and as he's inflaming that rhetoric throughout the campaign, groups like the clan are definitely going to be encouraged. >> i want you to take me back to your younger self. you were deeply involved in the white power movement. tell if he in is right.

you were a founding member of the largest skin head organization in the world. is that true? >> that is true. i got involved in that group when i was 16 years old. and i was in it until i was 23. >> so then how would your younger self have reacted to donald trump's win? would you have deemed it a victory for the way the kkk has deemed this a victory? >> yeah, throughout all of this, i couldn't imagine this happening back in my day. we felt very, like, disconnected from society, and at large, and the government and things like that. we considered the government an enemy. so the idea of having an ally in the white house would be incomprehensible to my former self. but i certainly would have been fired up by it. >> i want to talk to you about the turning point in your journey that really quickly and ask you about the alt-right which has inspired. you know this debate over whether the terms white nationalist and white supremacist are potentially more of an accurate representation of the group's position.

what's your take? if i hearality right, am i hearing -- what am i really hearing? >> well, i think the alt-right is a fairly large tent. and the big difference between the alt-right, like in general and some of the groups that may fall under it is that, for instance, in my day, we would have never looked upon any black person as a hero or as a representative of us. whereas the alt-right, as a whole, very much looks up to people like sheriff clark here in milwaukee, ben carson at times, and that would have been an anathema to us. that's the big difference. >>. >> an a more personal level, help us to understand if it's truly possible to be a former white supremacist to having such intense racist beliefs and hatred to no longer seeing minorities in that way. what was your turning point, or talk to us about your journey and what happened.

>> well, what really drew me out of the movement, as we called it, and they still use that term today, referring to what they do, was the kindness and forgiveness of people that i had claimed to hate. so there were times when a jewish boss, a lesbian supervisor, black and latino co-workers treated me as a human being. they treated me with kindness when i least deserved it. and that really indicated to me how wrong i was, and also what -- how much better life would be if i left this kind of self-imposed hell i was in behind. and it's important to understand that, that living with this racist mind-set, you're in fear of the world around you constantly. all day, every day. and once you can get a peek outside it and see what life is like when you don't look at all human beings as your enemy, it becomes a no-brainer to make that decision to leave. >> so let me just make sure i

understand this. so i, as a black person, for example, are you angry at me because your situation would be so bad, or what's the root of it? is it the anger about their own circumstance? or is it really the medical aanyone of my skin? >> it's really about them, it's not about you. a white supremacist is going to be casting blame on black people, on muslims, on gay people, jewish people, a long list of people, who everything's fault is, everyone but them. and when you have that sort of attitude, which happens at either political pole, when you blame everyone else for your problems, you're essentially powerless to really actually solve your own problems. and so you find yourself in this, like, vicious circle of blame and irresponsibility and your problems get worse and worse. and it's really a nightmarish place to be. but it is important to understand, yeah, it's not about

you. it's about them. >> do you see heightened activity because of all of this? i've always wondered -- people always -- and i even struggle with it as part of the media. you don't want to give hate a stage. but we feel like we have to talk about what's going on. is this problem as big as we think it is, or is it even bigger? give me some perspective to how long this has been bubbling. >> i think it's -- i mean, our country was born on white supremacy. so this has been going on for centuries. and what we're seeing right now -- i think -- i'm an optimist, and i really believe that the human experience as a whole is a beautiful thing and we should all be grateful for it. and that we are headed in a good direction. but along the way, we're going to have these kind of growing pains. and when people identify themselves as white and they identify with this sense of white supremacy, they're going to be very intimidated by things like president obama, by gay and

lesbian people attaining equal rights. and they're going to push back. so it's important that we understand that they're doing this out of fear and we respond with compassion, rather than reflecting their aggression, which actually just feeds them and validates all of their narrative. >> two questions. is it bigger than most of us realize, this whole -- i don't want to call it a movement. but -- and also, oh, to be a fly on the wall. with you and maybe, you know, the group still. what would they say to you? would they even have a discussion with you, and, you know, what would that discussion be like? >> i'm always game to talk to anyone. and i make it known to my old buddies or to anybody who is involved in hate groups, that i am absolutely there to talk to them and listen to them. >> do you come at them like that? obviously, if you're like, oh, let me tell you how loving you should be? i mean, are they saying, okay, what happened to you? how do you -- could you reach them or would they even listen to you or what would you have to

say to really try to get at the grit of the conversation? >> i actually do a bit of work helping people leave those kind of movements. and the key to it is to not butt heads on policy or particular issues. the key is to really just listen and to be a friend and connect with someone on an individual basis. and when they see a genuine inner peace coming from someone else that they have a natural affinity for that. they want that. so they are going to listen to you if you listen to them. and it's really important to understand that kind of gentle power is really what reaches people, rather than like, shouting back at them, no, you're wrong, that's not how you act, rah-rah rah. that's actually what they're trying to provoke. >> right. very interesting perspective. i thought it was interesting, you said violence became a se self-fulfilling prophecy. we can talk about that all day. thank you for talking with me, for your time and i'm glad you changed your opinion, by the way, because i'm a pretty nice

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friday was a busy day at trump tower with appearances by former u.n. ambassador, florida attorney general pam bondi and defense secretary robert gates. one visitor surprised even experienced political observers. the heidi hight camp. let's talk about this. a huffington post contributor and susan del percent oof marath marathon strategies. is this just trump's attempt to look bipartisan? what's your take? >> i think it's just extraordinary. first and foremost, he may actually be serious about offering her a position, which

would take out a democratic senate seat in the election. and for her standpoint, being able to perhaps transfer from the senate in north dakota into the cabinet could be a very pleasant experience, because she'll probably have a very, very tough race in 2018. >> all right. i want to squeeze in -- i don't want to run out of time. i want to bring up mitt romney with you, susan. trump met again with mitt romney. it seems he has made so many other appointments. why is this dragging on? >> i think he wants to make the best decision for him. and what's happened just with this time with this phone call you mentioned, it's a perfect example. rudy guiliani would be right there beside donald trump and cheering it on. and i'm not sure what mitt romney would do. and i think that's probably the concern that donald trump has right now. what kind of person does he want as secretary of state that he knows he can trust to carry out his agenda, even when they disagree. >> what do you think? what's the buzz as far as what you want -- what the party wants? >> i think the buzz right now is that it's not going to be rudy

guiliani or mitt romney. that he's probably looking somewhere else. right now i think you are probably looking at senator corker. because, again, the administration he's putting together to put all those senate confirmations out there, there's only so many difficult confirmation hearings you want to have. >> that's a good point. i want to get into this too. on thursday, the top campaign staffers provoked trump and clinton at harvard university. in it, fair to say, devolved pretty quickly. here's a clip. >> if providing a platform for white supremacists makes me brilliant -- a brilliant tactician, i am glad to have lost. and when -- give me a minute, david. when i am more proud of hillary clinton's alt-right speech than any other moment on the campaign, because she had the courage to stand up, i would rather lose than win the way you guys did. >> do you think i ran a campaign where white supremacists had a platform? you're going to look me in the

face and say that? >> it did. >> peter, how precedented is this kind of faceoff, especially after an election? >> well, in the context, too, it's important to know that room was filled with about 100 journalists and maybe ten students. i'm up in that area right now and got firsthand eyewitness accounts of that. and it just seemed incredibly petty, but it was also playing for a different audience. i think it would have been very different if the students had been there. but obviously, the frustration and the anger of the clinton people, particularly jen pal marry, is very real and tangible. so on both sides, i suspect there is some time that needed to decompress, let's say. >> he mentioned -- jennifer, do you think there is any i guess truth to the campaign play of the white supremacists on purpose? >> no, i don't think that's what this campaign was about, especially intentionally and i agree with kel ann. and it really shows how upset

and i think how embarrassed the hillary clinton team is. >> i think they are embarrassed. how do you not go to wisconsin once? how do you not read losing three states that have been democrat for over 20 years. and that's -- and the interesting part we haven't seen, which i expect will start very soon, the knives haven't come out internally from the hillary clinton campaign. my guess is that's the next story, is that they are going to start gunning for each other to explain it. >> susan del percio, good conversation. we'll have to talk again, of course. thank you, guys. at the top of the hour, the latest on the breaking news of the san francisco area. several people dead after a warehouse party fire in oakland. new information in just a few minutes. when i first started working with capital one, my dad called them up and asked for "the jennifer garner card" which is such a dad thing to do. after he gave his name the woman from capital one said "mr. garner, are you related to jennifer?"

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