cleaning deep between teeth. hear the difference? get healthier gums in just 2 weeks vs a manual toothbrush and experience an amazing feel of clean. innovation and you. philips sonicare. save now when you buy philips sonicare. good day, everyone. i'm alex witt here in new york at msnbc world headquarters. high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. in the west. an alarming toll. within this hour, new information from the scene of that deadly warehouse fire. the chilling details ahead. > a new day. a series of new tweets. why are the latest proclamations from president-elect trump drawing criticism from some republicans today? the mysteries of michigan, jill stein says she wants to unravel some ballot questions in that state, why thousands are blank. a new record on why ivanka could influence the incoming administration when it comes to

climate change. how might she do that? first, breaking news on the massive warehouse fire in oakland, california. the death toll has risen to 24. that number is expected to go up. the cause of the fire still unknown. officials say they searched 20% of the building so far. >> we had to gain access by breaching the wall with heavy rescue equipment, specialized tools that turned out to be a very successful operation. at this point, we have approximately 80% left to search. so within 12 hours of our operational briefing, we made it through one-fifth of the building. this will be a long and arduous process. i can tell you when i was in there throughout the evening, the somber approach that our firefighters and sheriff's department members took to this search. it was quiet.

it was heartbreaking. to get through -- what we were able to accomplish in 12 hours was a phenomenal feat. we have a lot more to go. we're going to be here for a few more days just getting through the building. this is the most deadly fire in oakland fire's history. >> as many as 50 people were partying there when the fire broke out friday night. the two story building was a workshop for artists. it was cluttered with wooden objects with no sprinklers inside. steve patterson is outside the warehouse. a good day to you. talk about the situation. what's it like right there? you could hear the somber tone of the firefighter at this news conference. heartbreaking, indeed. >> reporter: alex, you don't even really have to do the math

here to realize how horrific this search must be for the crews that are doing the work in the building behind me right now. let's go back over the information that was presented before you came to me. in the last 12 hours of this recovery effort, they so far managed to search 20%, one-fifth of that building. in that time and space, they have recovered 24 bodies. this is grueling, arduous, meticulous, time consuming, heartbreaking work that those crews are doing right now. then you factor in realizing that the investigation is going to follow that. and the notification process has to be slow, because they have to recover and go through piece by piece by piece of that warehouse finding bodies, identifying those bodies and making the tough calls to the families. as this process is going on, we are hearing the harrowing stories from people inside the warehouse at the time that fire broke out. started cutting through the

warehouse. we spoke to one guy, bob mule, listen to the story of him trying to pull his buddy out as the warehouse is burning down around him. listen to this right now. >> as i was pulling him, there was all this obstruction in the way. bikes had fallen. this other cart was just blocking the path. it was getting too hot. i could literally feel my skin, like, melting away. like, i was just like -- i couldn't breathe. i had to leave him. i had to get out of there. there was no way that i could have moved all that stuff and, like, taken the four steps back and grabbed him and, like -- if i would have been there any longer, i would have been toast. >> you don't think he made it? >> i'm like 100% that he didn't make it. it's like the way that the fire was and how quickly it was and how hot it was. i can't imagine laying on the

ground, being in his position. >> reporter: he could feel his skin starting to melt. you realize the volume of this when you think that's just one story among dozens. bob, by the way, knows this community very well. he says there may have been upwards 20 to 25 people living inside this artist commune. he says the number of 50 people may be more like 80, 90, 100 people in the warehouse at the time the fire started cutting through. that's consistent with the number -- the percentage that crews are working with right now as they move slowly through this building. it's a really tough process. we're going to be here for a long time covering it. back to you. >> that interview was gut wrenching. four steps between life and death. steve patterson, thank you. now to politics and the trump team fighting back the recount efforts. here is the vice-president-elect

earlier defending the president-elect's claim of illegal voters costing him the popular vote. >> it's his right to express his opinion as president-elect of the united states. why is did refreshing to make fals statements? >> i don't know that that is a false statement, george. neither do you. the simple fact is that -- >> i know there's no evidence for it. >> there is evidence -- historic evidence from the pugh research center of voter fraud that's taken place. >> lawyers for jill stein's campaign get ready to take their case in pennsylvania to federal court tomorrow. just yesterday lawyers dropped the request in state court saying the campaign wouldn't be able to meet tomorrow's deadline for a $1 million bond. stein's lawyers fight it out with trump's lawyers in court. she's heading to new york for a rally set for tomorrow. here is what she's saying about taking the fight to his doorsteps. >> we are standing up loud and strong to say we will not be intimidated. we will not be frightened by having to jump through all these legal hoops.

we would say, what is donald trump's frightened of? he is obstructing, delaying these cases. >> the question really is who is speaking for american voters? >> this is about -- this is not about donald trump. it's not about hillary clinton. it's not about my campaign. it's not about gary johnson. this is about the american voters who deserve to have a voting system we can trust. new reaction from two of trump and clinton's top aides following the heated exchanges in cambridge the other night. they spoke with my colleague chuck todd about what might have been behind some of the exchanges. >> are you being sore losers? >> no, i don't think we're being sore losers. i think we have acknowledged and i acknowledged in the exchange with kellyanne right from the start that they won. he is press president-elect. i was taking issue with the notion there was a mandate. >> are you being a sore winner? you have done this a few times. your own twitter bio simply says, we won. it's like a drop the mike.

>> chuck, first of all, i showed great respect and grace to my colleagues from across the table for over two hours before this happened. the fact is that we are -- we're the ones who understood america. the idea that we're going to talk about the popular vote answers your questions about sore loser. >> let's bring in kelly o'donnell in studio with me for a change. good to see you. let's talk about the president-elect and what he has been doing today and what we have been hearing from him. >> we have not heard anything in an official sense, meaning no scheduled meetings. there are many jobs to fill. senior advisers say he is expanding his search for secretary of state. there will be a flurry of meetings in the days to come. but we have learned something throughout the campaign and now the transition, that you don't need a public schedule for donald trump to let his message be known. early this morning, a twitter storm or perhaps a series, i'm not sure, we might need new terms to define how he communicates. 140 characters was not enough today. he was talking about a headline that really comes to the idea of

the united states is open for business. he was articulating some of his policy about how you would encourage and penalize businesses if they want to take either jobs or their facilities outside the country. move between the states, he says. but he is getting criticism about that, even from a republican who is an up and comer in the party who is a senator from nebraska. well intended but wouldn't that result in american consumers paying more? there's a dialogue within the dialogue today. this is an idea that is reflected in the carrier announcement we saw over the last few days. and donald trump trying to do things before he becomes president to sort of either rattle the status quo or give us a preview of some of his policy. >> sarah palin was chiming into the conversation. >> crohn cny capitalism. >> what about the call with the

taiwanese talk? >> we saw pence respond to this. this is not a change in u.s. policy. it was simpler. here is what he had to say. >> should we expect a call to cam many t calm the waters? >> i wouldn't expect so. to be honest with you, the waters here seem like a little bit of a temper in a tea pot. it's striking to me that president obama would reach out to a murdering dictator in cuba and be hailed as a hero and president-elect trump takes a courtesy call from a democratically elected president of taiwan and it becomes a thing in the media. >> he was referring there to the people's republic of china, no immediate plan for the president-elect to have communication with them. they, of course, lodged a complaint with the united states government because in their view and the u.s. agrees, there's only one china. taiwan would be part of china, not a separate -- even though it's a self-governing island,

not to have leader to leader calls. there were feathers ruffled. the vice-president-elect can try to package that in a way or minimize it or argue that the outreach to cuba was also something of note. but they're going to try to move part this. i think their aides say it was a call. everyone says this was a break in nearly four decades of protocol. >> nixon administration. >> exactly. whether you intended it or not, it did get people's attention. they have some concerns about what it means in terms of other countries knowing where the united states stands, how t united states will follow these norms or not. again, it was described as a courtesy call. we will see if that is a policy change down the line, if there's any repercussions. >> kelly o'donnell, i appreciate the conversation. another conversation i appreciate, someone we're having now with congressman adam schiff, ranking member of the intelligence committee.

you heard kelly talking about the situation. to your reaction to the phone call with the president of taiwan? the dnc is calling this a threat to national security. would you go so far as to say that? >> i don't know that i would say it's a threat to national security. but it does look like this was another indication of trump bumbling his way through the transition period. it's not as if this call was in isolation. he had a long call it appears with the prime minister of pakistan and conveyed a message there which i think was highly problematic as well. although, i think this is more serious because it does threaten to upend relations with china. i don't think this was something that was thought out in advance. i think it was the product, again, of the president-elect not wanting to take the bree briefings from the state department. he neglected most of the offered briefings from the intelligence committee as well. here he ought to know the consequences, if we want china's

help with one of our top priorities in the region, cracking down on north korea's nuclear program, this is not the way to go about it. one doesn't have the impression of a well thought out change in policy or a shot across china's bow. the impression is this is the president-elect stumbling and bumbling along. >> do you have a gauge on how upset china is over this call? >> well, here is the interesting thing. i think what we are starting to see is other countries not really putting much stock in what the president-elect says and does. basically, viewing him i think as very inexperienced, taking with a certain grain of salt the things he says and does. that will have consequences as well. because it means that when he really does mean something, that our foreign partners or adversaries may not take him at his word then. i think china is not going to overreact to this, because they're going to assume that he didn't know what he was doing.

but if it becomes part of a pattern in terms of u.s. taiwan and u.s. chinese, it will change things. >> you praised mat is. >> we get to vote on that waiver. right now, i would not vote to support the waiver. i think that waiver is in place -- that restriction on seven years is in place for sound reasons. again, somebody without the kind of management skill that you have to have to run that department, you don't necessarily get that in the position of general. you are certainly managing in one respect. but you are not managing, again, $600 billion a year. i would rather see something with management experience. >> congressman is one of several democrats saying they are not going to vote for the waiver of seven years removed from service there. do you think it's a mistake to

try to block general mattis? >> look, i'm open to it. i haven't made a decision on the waiver in part for me, i will be interested not only in what general mattis has to say but who else does the president-elect have in mind? is he going to appoint another general, another admiral to run the office of the director of national intelligence? he is looking at a number of other high level appointments of military personnel. that would cause me greater con sternation about violating or creating an exception to this rule that people need to be out of uniform for seven years before they are appointed as secretary of state. but i like a lot about general mattis. yes, it's true he doesn't have the experience of running a department. that's important as my colleague points out. but at the same time, he is willing to push back against the president-elect's interests in torture, which i think is enormously important for secretary of defense to push back against. he understands the threat that's posed by russia, something the president-elect doesn't seem to

understand. he also i think understands the importance of pushing back against iran's conventional ma leave lens in the region but at the same time not tearing up the nuclear agreement and isolating the united states rather than iran. so on a lot of policies, i think he has common sense and sound things to tell the president-elect that would give me some comfort in the handling of defense and national security issues. >> what about syria? i saw you quoted in a washington post article about the impact a trump presidency will have in the syria crisis. what's behind the fears of abandonment by the rebels? are they legitimate? >> i think they are. there's a lot at stake in syria. first is the human suffering and the necessity of trying to bring a speedy end to the conflict. but also understanding what the russian interests are and how they're not aligned with ours. the president-elect said during the campaign trail that the russians were bombing isis. actually, they been more bombing the moderate rebels.

if we back away from any support for the opposition in syria, that will have a lot of consequences that may force that moderate opposition to work even closer with the extremist groups, the former -- the president al qaeda affiliate. it may also cause us to lose the confidence of our allies in the region that we can't be depended on. there are a lot of implications with what the president-elect talked about on the campaign trail. it's another reason why i have some comfort with e idea of general mattis, because i don't thk he shares the views we have heard the president-elect express on the subject of syria. >> the clinton campaign is once again calling on congress to release more information about russia hacking into the election. is there a chance that by doing so, it could lead to more instability, more tensions over the results? >> well, i don't think it will lead to more tension over the results. we already have plenty of that. that's going to take time to dissipate. but i do think it would have an

important other consequence, and that is it would tell russia we're going to call them out on this, that we're going to actually respond to this. i think beyond speaking with american people about this, which i think the administration ought to do to a much greater degree than it has, it's important to have a deterrent to this meddling that we partner with our european allies, that we sanction russia for what they did. because otherwise, we're going to see more of it. i have news for the president-elect, it may have been to his benefit during the campaign, i think it was. when he becomes president, if he crosses russia, he can expect his own information to be hacked. that may have been possession of his that they will dump. there needs to be a deterrent. he will have to work to establish that. i think the current administration ought to establish that deterrent in the time it has left. >> plenty of tension between the trump and clinton teams the other night in harvard.

do you understand the level of anger or frustration on the clinton side? >> absolutely. i think what you saw reflected in that debate still are the raw emotions all around the country. i speak to people every day in my district. i have received hundreds of e ma mails and calls of people upset. could you see this coming. i remember talking to people who were working on the campaign who were telling me that they couldn't eat, they couldn't sleep. people felt a stake in this election that i have never seen before. now a degree of upset over the results or glee on the other side that i haven't seen before. it's going to take a long time to heal. i wish we had a president-elect that was growing into the job and showing signs of being able to mend that divide. sending out a tweet saying millions of people undocumented immigrants voted, you send out that kind of tweet and it basically -- a big chunk of the country, maybe most of the country is simply going to say

we have a president-elect who is not willing to speak the truth when it's not in his interest and is willing to make stuff up. that would have very serious consequences as a president of the united states. >> do you think president-elect trump won because of his appeal to white supremacists as the clinton team suggested? >> look, i think that there certainly was an appeal for the alt right and even some white supremacists. but look the vast majority of people who supported trump were not white supremacists. they were ordinary americans. i think many of them concerned about the economic lie livelihood and the future of theirs and their kids. for democrats as one of my colleagues pointed out the other day, it's like after you lose a big game. yes, you had some bad calls and maybe the other side had some dirty plays. i think in this campaign, they certainly did. but you gotta be good fluenough beat them notwithstanding those obstacles. we were not able to beat them as we should have.

i think there a lot of things because it was a close race that had we done just a bit differently we would have won. but unfortunately, yes, i think there was an appeal. there were dog whistles that went out to some very unsavory people, including some in the white supremacist movement, that played a role in this election. that was i think disgusting to many of us. >> congressman adam schiff, thanks so much. >> thanks. jill stein's comments about the michigan vote recount and how many were left blank. will your business be ready when growth presents itself? american express open cards can help you take on a new job, or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com.

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he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. in michigan, there are 75,000 votes which are blank, which are sky high, compared to all other past centrated in

detroit. that's 75,000 votes which may be machine error or human error. that's about seven times the margin of difference in michigan. so these results could, in fact, change the outcome. >> that was green party jill stein giving some insight about the recount in michigan. lawyers are there today trying to find out when the recount will begin. joining me now is ozzie paybraugh and matt welch. what was jill stein meaning in that sound bite right there? 75,000 blank votes? >> right. when people fill out ballots, they usually go in voting for the top of the ticket. sometimes because of either a machine error or because they didn't fill out the form or because they filled out the form improp improperly, the machine doesn't register the vote. it's unusual for someone in an election year to walk into a booth and say i'm not voting for a president. usually, someone votes for president and they decide the rest of the ticket who cares. usually when someone fills in a

ballot for the rest of the ticket but not at the top, it raises questions. >> but do you think it could have been because they couldn't vote for anybody on the ballot? there was that. >> this year it's possible. you had two historically disliked candidates. people were voting on who they disliked least. >> okay. matt, let's talk about the campaign -- the stein campaign which keeps moving the goalpost when it cops to the recount. let's look in terms of dollar. it met the $7 million goal. it raised $9.5 million. lawyers say they can't afford the $1 million it takes to put it toward the state recount in pennsylvania. what's going on here? >> god only knows. the main thing that's going on is that jill stein is having the time of her life. she's never been more important. she's bouncing off the bird cage right now. >> i was thinking that. >> she's shot through. if you watch the ticket online, she's shot through her fund-raising goals on this. i presume without knowing that the reason why they didn't file for the pennsylvania thing is that, you can have that ticker go up but maybe you don't have

the cash on hand to support it. who know ss? she will float any number of conspiracy theories about ballots, about machines, russian influence, this and that. i have seen her come up with a half a dozen different theories about what might happen there. it's all -- she's tapping into the democrat -- the great democratic disquiet and discontent over this that needed to find an outlet somewhere. she raised her hand and said it's over here. >> do you think great democratic disquiet exists within the clinton campaign? do you think they want this recount under way? how do you think they feel on it? >> they're frustrated. they don't want to be seen as being in the forefront. if there's a recount, they need to have presence there. i don't think they want to be in front of you, waiving their hand or holding jill stein's elbow saying we are part of it. they need to protect their interests just like donald trump's campaign needs to be represented in case anybody wants to recount this. but i don't think they want to be part of this saying, we don't believe the results. >> let's talk about what happened at the harvard school

of government. it was almost a brawl. the sense of that is it was reported yesterday that there are those within the clinton administration that couldn't believe they had lost to the trump campaign, that these are these professionals and they don't want to go down in history as being the group that did lose to donald trump. that may be what fuelled some of the anger and tension. >> i haven't seen a lot of introspection among clinton professionals here. there's a lot -- they spent -- both sides spent a lot of time blaming the media, blaming you for the election. >> sorry? >> one way or the other. hillary clinton campaign has not really grappled with i think the fact that she was an undesirable candidate with a lot of holes running against someone who should have been beatable. >> how many times did we hear lesser of two evils. we heard that all the time. >> we will hear that over and over again among the kind of dead enders in both the major two party system. that stuff is turning off americans in record numbers. people voted negatively.

they voted against people in this election. you keep doing that and you keep doing that and ultimately people will untether themselves and become more independent. >> what's your take on this public display of anger and >> it was a sign of frustration on both ends. what the clinton campaign was trying to say was sort of a validation of their complaints from throughout the campaign. donald trump was spreading hate and discord among the electorate and the trump campaign was largely saying, we won, knock it off. that's not really what these kind of gathering are about. in new york city, you have one at the end of state campaigns and city campaigns. operatives say, this is what we were thinking. this is what we got wrong. it's supposed to lay the foundation for a butter understabetter understanding of this. this was purely a venting and a continuation of what was happening during the campaign. >> quickly, matt, john huntsman being floated for secretary of state, what's your take on that? >> i mean, so is dana

rohrabacher. so is mitt romney. so is john bolton. secretary of state is being used to kind of knit together the republican communities right now. that's the only thing. >> dana rohrabacher? really? happening in north dakota, the deadline for thousands to get off line where an oil pipeline could be constructed. there's a life shot for you. we will be back after a break. ♪

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welcome back. i'm alex witt at msnbc headquarters. time is running out for hundreds of protesting a multibillion dollar pipeline project near a native american reservation in north dakota. they are under evacuation orders to leave by tomorrow after camping there for months. protesters say the pipeline is an environmental and cultural threat. propoe tept tetentials say it w provide jobs and pump money into

the local economies. what's going on there right now? >> reporter: good afternoon. right now, this camp is basically bursting at the seams. thousands of vets have arrived as well as thousands of just sort of ordinary citizens who want to stand arm in arm with as they are calling it the water protectors here. i'm joined by a marine corps vet. we have been talking for two years. what are you doing here and what are you trying to achieve in. >> good morning. veterans past, present have all sworn an original to ptect and defend the constitution. that continues on, that original never expires. when veterans see peaceful protesters standing up for their homelands and exercising lawfully their first amendment rights, and we see the federal government and law enforcement respond with such heavy handed tactics, that's not the america that we fought for. >> reporter: there's a kinsmanship that i have noticed that i didn't know existed between veterans and the native american tribes who have arrived

from around the country. where does that come from? where does that stem from? >> in the military, there's a strong sense of comradery between the ranks. honestly, i didn't understand that much about it until i got out here. i came with even open mind. the more i learned about the people who have inhabited this land since the beginning of time, their entire culture is based on respect for the individual around them, for the entire environment. and that's kind of a similarity between the military. we respect each other and i think that really unique bond has been formed here at this camp. >> reporter: quickly, are you worried there's going to be violence tomorrow? >> i'm not. i know the discipline of the water protectors. i know the discipline of the united states veterans. >> reporter: i wanted to tell you quickly, i witnessed a roll call early morning with the veterans this morning. it was amazing. they said, look out for your battle buddies. there's people with

post-traumatic stress. keep an eye out for issues. there was a debate that broke out about the veterans administration. a lot of different groups here coming together. we will see about this deadline tomorrow. >> pivotal 24 hours. thank you to you and your guest. a progressive voice in the west wing. why one journalist says democrats want ivanka talking to her father once he takes office. there's a denture adhesive that holds strong until evening.

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environmentalists across the country and around the world are worries a president trump will undo president obamobama's effo to combat climate change. ivanka may give voice to liberal causes and already has. >> he will fight for equal pay for equal work. and i will fight for this, too. right alongside of him. >> joining me now, annie carney. thank you for joining us. >> thanks for having me.

>> let's get to the article on ivanka in which you say she is positioning herself as a bridge to moderates and liberals. how is she trying to accomplish that? >> we saw this as the clip you played at the republican national convention. this is her social circle. this is where she came from. she's a former democrat. she wants to speak out on women's issues. now as i wrote in the article, i'm told that she is -- wants to research and understand climate change. which is an interesting one for her to pick when it's an issue her father has said is a hoax perpetuated by the chinese and incoming chief of staff has said most of it is bunk. it's a heavy lift. the real question we look at as we watch ivanka's role grow in the administration is, is this something she really wants to push and influence policy? or is this about her own image and trying to stay clean and distance herself from her father's most extreme policies in order to preserve her own

role? that's a question we don't know what the answer is. >> you make a good point. she's a business woman. it's indicated by your article and elsewhere she has no plans to move to shington. she's staying put in new york. what do you think the challenges are she's going to face from the trump administration on climate change? >> first of all, there's a challenge she's going to face before that which is if she wants to influence policy or be seen as an adviser to her father and running the family business, that's going to be a conflict of interest. my article is about how she is poised to become the most influential first daughter ever. >> more so than her stepmother? >> more so than melania. she hasn't been out in public, hasn't tweeted, hasn't made a public statement since november 8. ivanka has been doing the ceremonial visits to a charter school in harlem, to pack meals before thanksgiving. she's occupying this role. the ceremonial part, there's nothing wrong with that if she continues to run the business. the policy part is much

trickier. that has to be figured out. in terms of the climate change piece, i don't know -- i think what she wants to do right now as least by putting this out there is be seen as a locust for hope for liberals. there's someone in there in that inner circle that at least is listening and understands the other side. i think she thinks that's helping her father. >> to that end, filmmaker michael moore is among those who have been writing the so-called dear ivanka letters to her over concerns about her father. what do we know about the topics of those letters and if she's responded to any of them? >> these have been on social media and outside of this building. a lot of them were climate change. a lot are expressing fear about women's rights, fear about the most extreme things that trump has talked about during the campaign, banning muslims from entering the country, just pleading with her to listen. i don't think she's responded directly to these. but i think that in talking --

in putting it out there that she's going to be fighting for -- championing liberal causes, i think that is sort of acknowledging she's hearing it. >> how much influence do you think ivanka will have not only on her father's policies but on his temperament? >> i mean,e is the thin she's been part of his inner circle for the past 18 months. and donald trump is donald trump. i don't think that we have seen him particularly moderate because of her. i don't know how that will look like in going forward into a trump administration. she's certainly someone that has his ear. but i think at the end of the day like everyone, i think donald trump is donald trump. and i think that she respects her father and respects that that's part of it. >> all right. it's a great article. come back and see us another time. >> i will. thank you. still ahead, newt gingrich described romney's meeting with

donald trump. it's not pretty. one phone call involving donald trump is creating tension between the u.s. and china. the underlying message and what could happen next. ♪ ♪ jon batiste has mastered new ways to play old classics.

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it's a little mystifying to me that president obama can reach out to a murdering dictator in cuba in the last year and be hailed as a hero for doing it and president-elect trump takes a courtesy call from the democratically elected leader in taiwan and it's become something of a controversy. >> that was mike pence down playing the donald trump phone call with the president of taiwan, the first such conversation in nearly 40 years. let's bring in elise and howard

dean, former dnc chair and an msnbc contributor. welcome to you both on this sunday. ladies first with you. you worked for the state department, the national security council. someone with that background and knowledge, what's your reaction to what pence is saying here? >> i actually think that on the part of the trump team, they're very disorganized right now. i hope that this was a mistake. it's a sign that they don't have anyone with significant asia experience on their team and they do need to find someone who put in their foreign policy april r apparatus who is an asia expert. hopefully it was a mistake. but who really knows what's going on? >> howard, is mike pence right? president obama reached out to a dictator. what is wrong with president-elect trump taking a call from taiwan? >> what's wrong is that we have something called the one china policy which may or may not be fair but it's a policy which we agreed to when we opened

diplomatic relations with china. >> 40 years ago during the nixon administration. >> 40 years ago. it has been the touchstone of how we operate in asia. it's a little embarrassing for the president-elect to do that without any consultation with anybody, it appears. it reinforces the notion he has no idea what he is doing. >> there are a few republicans that are praising it though. tom cotton. >> generally, right wing republicans who are out of touch with what's going on. look, diplomacy is not a republican or democratic stronghold -- i mean, disagreement. usually democrats and republicans have roughly the same foreign policy in terms of how to defend america abroad, both in terms of the military and in terms of diplomacy. this is something that the chinese take really, really seriously. if they were to make good on their threat, which they have done to blame taiwan and threaten armed intervention, donald trump would then be in the position of having to decide

whether to deploy armed forces to taiwan, which we have a defense treaty -- or defense agreement with. so this was i would say was a major blunder. it has nothing to do with recognizing cuba. it has to do with our dealings with one of the major powers in the face of the either. this is the stuff i was afraid of might happen if donald trump became president. >> do you think donald trump took that call because he was just unaware of the situation with taiwan or because he wanted to just take a congratulatory call from the leader of another entity around the world? >> i have some concerns that he did it because he has hotels and investments in taiwan. >> your thoughts? >> you listen to what the vice-president-elect said. he said trump made the call. i don't know if he misspoke there. the transition team said that trump received the call. trump said he received the call. you know, it really illustrates the haphazardness of the coming

administration when it comes to foreign policy. you look at the order of calls. theresa may, the prime minister of the uk, our most important ally. reportedly on the call -- we find out most of the information about what happens on the foreign leader calls from the foreign press. because the trump team has not been doing formal readouts of the president-elect's interest actions. but he toeltd tld theresa may t him know something -- let her know if she's in the u.s. that's just -- that's absurd. this is our most important ally. other leaders are saying that, trump invited us. he rolled out the red carpet. marshal law in the philippines and that's a leader who gets more respect than theresa may. >> you make a point about the haphazard nature when it comes to details. for the most part, it's reported that china says that the call was instigated by taiwan. it was a cheeky move they say on the part of taiwan. that said, let's get to newt

gingrich who weighed in on mitt romney for secretary of state as being an option earlier this week. here is his take. listen to this. >> i remember that scene. how about you? that's a big ouch. what's your reaction? >> i think it's disgusting the way that mitt romney has been treated. it sends a horrible sign to republicans who oppose donald trump but who want to be part of a constructive solution to help make the country better. there are a lot of experienced republican foreign policy hands that the administration needs to have on board. the treatment of mitt romney shows what they are up against and what they can expect. it disincentivize anyone from

trying to work with the trump group. >> a few months ago romney was calling trump a phony and a fraud. >> but i think that right now, donald trump is a cat and he is treating romney like a mouse he is playing with. i honest -- >> you don't think he is going to get it? >> i would be shock if donald trump chose mitt romney. it would show a lot of growth on his part to be able to really move beyond the wounds of the primary. i really -- i'm not sure that donald trump would be capable of that. quite frankly, seems to be enjoying the theater of this process a little bit too much. i wonder whether the announcement will even come. >> you know, howard, trump has named several generals to his administration. he is considering at least one more. how unusual is that to have so many military influence? does that worry you? >> well, i think you have to look at it one by one. it's unusual to have this many generals. obviously, the appointment of general mattis has legal problems with it because he hasn't been out of the defense

business long enough. >> seven years required. >> mike flynn was a -- right. mike flynn was a very close adviser. although, he was fired essentially from his previous position. so that is not -- the other problem is that he probably is temperamentally unsuited to be the national security adviser. the job is to bring people together who disagree. mike has very strong views on things. it's going to be tough. particularly on the secretary of state to have a national security adviser that's as strong minded as mike flynn. >> all right. good to see you both. thank you so much, as always. >> thank you. >> that's going to do it for me this hour. thanks for watching. the latest on our top story, the climbing death toll in the tragic california warehouse fire. [burke] hot dog. seen it. covered it.

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