bill assumed his mayo was the best choice. assume nothing. unlike hellmann's, kraft real mayo spreads on smoother and still has no artificial flavors. no wonder the holidays taste so good. hello. 1:00 eastern, 10:00 out west here on this busy sunday. we begin with that breaking news in oakland, california.

rescue crews recovered 24 bodies in the warehouse fire that broke out friday night. the number is, authorities tell us, expected to rise. officials on the scene, as charred debris and rubble, they breached the wall for better access. 20% of the structure they say has been searched thus far. >> i can tell you when i was in there throughout the evening, the somber approach that our firefighters and the sheriff's department members took to this search. it was quiet. it was heartbreaking. to get through -- what we were able to accomplish in 12 hours was a phenomenal feat. we have a lot more to go. we're going to be here for a few

more days just getting through the building. had is the most deadly fire in oakland's fire history that i'm aware of. >> the two story building as it burned was a workshop for artists and some residents there lived there. we are told they were living without a permit. officials say it was cluttered with wood een objects. no sprinklers. it was a fire hazard. 50 people were attending a party in the building when the fire erupted. nbc's steve patterson outside the warehouse and has been reporting on this tragedy that obviously has hurt the community. steve, what can you tell us about the efforts under way right now? >> reporter: well, right now, we're still in this recovery phrase. in one thing that's been great here on scene is the fact that the crews, the fire officials, the police department, the county, everybody has been extremely transparent about what they are doing. you can see work being done behind me to put up more fencing. everybody has been extremely transparent about what they are

doing. but in the process, in having so many news briefs, we have had a half dozen since this fire broken out, one of the things they wanted to communicate to us is that this process, this recovery phase that we're in right now is going to take a long, long time. this is a very arduous process. just look where we are at right now. it's been 12 hours. so far, they have searched about 20% of that warehouse. that's about one-fifth of the total footage inside the facility. in that space, they have recovered 24 bodies. that is an extremely high volume. if it's consistent with what we see as this process moves along. then we're going to have a notification period as this goes along. the process of finding bodies, identifying those bodies. then the hard -- the tough process of communicating that to the families who are waiting for answers. that has to happen before there is an investigation period. then that investigation period,

obviously, will take some time. we are hearing with all of this, hearing the stories of people who were trapped inside. i want to play sound for you from one of the survivors who was trapped inside the burning building all around. listen to this. >> some of the back units and walls were totally engulfed in flames. the ceiling was on fire. there was a sheet -- it was like a sheet of fire that was just rolling towards the door. it was advancing so fast. the power cut out. it was pitch black. then the smoke was -- it was really starting to get thick with smoke. just a matter of seconds. i mean, there was no more than two minutes from the point of someone screaming fire to being evacuated and just knowing that people probably weren't going to make it out. >> reporter: tough stuff. another news conference coming up in an hour. we should learn more about the progress that crews have here on

scene. back to you. >> thank you. we will keep an eye on it, obviously. . we are going to turn to politics. vice-president-elect fighting back against criticism over the carrier job deals and the money that went for tax incentives. pence saying the company turned down incentives he offered earlier. here is what he told chuck todd about the company's shift. >> the only reason carrier is staying in the united states is because donald trump was elected president of the united states. he picked up the phone and he said to the leadership of the this company, we're going to cut taxes. we're going to roll back the regulations that are driving companies just like r yours out of the company. we're going to renegotiate trade deals so they put american jobs and workers first. he asked them very respectfully to reconsider their decision to leave. >> that's the argument from the trump side of things. reaction pouring in from trump and clinton's former campaign managers following the heated exchanges at the unusually divisive harvard campaign

debrief. they did share a view of the role of the fbi in the race. take a listen to this. >> it's hard to imagine the kind of impact that that letter had. you know, most of the public polling showed a drop. we saw that in our internal numbers. we were expecting to perform better with suburban women in particular. we saw those numbers a lot stronger than what happened on election day. we do think that was because of the comey letter. we saw a lot of young people go to third party candidates. we think the letter had a lot do with that. >> donald trump turned over 200 counties that went for president obama in 2012 to donald trump in 2016. that's because of messages that connect with people in those areas, not because of a letter late in the game. >> meanwhile, the other candidate you don't hear too much about, jill stein's lawyers headed back to court. they're in michigan for a hearing on whether the recount

should begin. here is what she said this morning. >> in michigan, there are 75,000 votes which are blank, which are sky high compared to all other past elections. they are concentrated in detroit. that's 75,000 votes which may very well be machine error or human error. that is about seven times the margin of difference in michigan. so these results could, in fact, change the outcome. >> stein is headed right here in new york. she's going to rally outside trump tower tomorrow. for more on the trump side of things, kelly o'connell all over the case. we have the light, him tweeting about snl and whether that is a good impression they do down on the eighth floor of this building as well as the heavy, because we have been hearing about the foreign policy. what are you hearing today? >> i think today he is trying to get the focus on something where he can claim a win in the kind of the wake of carri decision. it's interesting to hear

vice-president-elect mike pennsylvania who is the governor of indiana and had tried to do this make the case that it's all about donald trump. that works very well inside trump world to say that donald trump by the force of the election and his ideas could turn corporate heads around. that's an interesting thing that they will try to play out. we see it in the tweets, a series of them from early this morning. he talked about basically the headline, the united states is open for business. a bit of a warning shot to companies and foreign countries that if u.s. businesses move workers or facilities overseas, there will be consequences, even the word retribution is in there. so that's a bit more on the serious side. we find with donald trump, he can pivot from criticizing a parody about him to talking about a policy. >> it may be music to his supporters' ears because we know this is a popular and compelling kind of populist claim. the one problem others have pointed out is that it wasn't

exactly tough talk that moved carrier. it was this money from the state which is a different approach. the other thing we want to ask about is, donald trump has said some things on twitter that are false. that may not surprise people who keep track of this kind of thing, including the wild claim that there were millions of illegal votes cast in the election. we looked at this. there's no evidence of anything like that. governor pence was asked about it today. >> he, trying to protect donald trump, defend donald trump, doesn't answer squarely the question. but suggests there's an open, unresolved issue here when so far we see no evidence of that. here is how responded to the idea that trump is spreading misinformation when it comes to voter irregularities. >> it's his right to express his opinion as a president-elect of the united states. >> why is it refreshing to make false statements? >> look, i don't know that that is a false statement, george, and neither do you. the simple fact is -- >> i know there's no evidence for it. >> there's evidence historic evidence from the pugh research

center of voter trafraud that's taken place. >> we know from looking at past elections, there are small numbers of instances where people attempt to vote and don't have the proper credentials or aren't in the proper location. or there have been machine malfunctions. there are some things that make it less than perfect. but that's very, very different than what trump suggests with the kind of scale and magnitude of voter fraud. in some ways, it may be a part of trying to simply swat at this effort to recount in states where he won at a time when, frankly, the outcome of that not likely to change, could validate his win. so it's an unusual strategy that he keeps inserting some uncertainty in this instance. >> i would say unusual could be the word of the day. i don't want to be that restrictive. it could be the word of the week. >> it's only 1 p.m. >> thank you as always.

sabrina, just playing this out, mike pence may play this role for the whole administration where he gets asked about false things that donald trump has claimed and because he is i don't know mildly more responsible, he doesn't want to double down on it fully, but he tries to walk this ground. what does that tell us? >> i think that is very much reflective of the role that mike pence played during the campaign. i think you remember that vice-presidential debate where mike pence essentially acted as though donald trump didn't even exist as the nominee. he countered many of the claims that donald trump himself had made. but i think that's what -- the orbit he is going to operate in where he tries to be the more measured voice, the bridge to congress and the republican establishment who have concerns about how trump might govern. i think in recent weeks when you examine who donald trump has appointed, for example, to his cabinet, you are seeing the imprint of mike pence with some

of the more traditional republican picks like tom price for hhs secretary, elaine chow for transportation secretary and others within that vein. >> let me play for you a little bit more of mike pence. he has got, like, a hard line to walk. he is constantly trying to pivot away from things he doesn't want to double down on and add something else. here he is on the popular vote. well, let me read it to you. it's not available. he says what's historic is that trump won 30 of 50 states, more counties than anyone on our side than any candidate since reagan and some part sons who are frustrated are point together popular vote. if this had been on the popular vote, we would have been campaigning in illinois and california and new york. what do you think that was defense? why are we a month in still talking about that? does that reflect some sort of inability of the trump folks to close the door on all this?

>> i think like sabrina said, mike pence is certainly going to try to be a bridge. he's not just being a bridge to the establishment republicans but he is trying to bridge to some degree to disgruntled democrats. there are mms of outraged democratic voters who are unhappy. they're going to have to get at least some democratic votes in the senate in order to avoid filibusters in a 60 vote majority to get anything done. there has to be someone who reaches out to the other side. there has to be somebody who reaches out to the establishment 57 and bridges as donald trump appeases his far right angry base. they make a good cop bad cop team. donald trump is free to insult the establishment as much as he likes and free continue to su insult democrats. mike pence sort of patches things up and says, hey, you know what sf? there's a third way. let's try it this way. trying to speak to different sides. >> substantively, it seems like

a waste oftime. same on taiwan. it may be that they after the fact want to argue this is a courtesy call and then reaffirm a one china policy. but it seems like a big waste to do this. if mike and donald talked about it for ten minutes in the advance, would you skip daniel control. >> i would argue it's effective. you get your cake and eat it too. you get to rile up the -- your base and you get to all the red meat and that unhappiness, yeah, we are riling up china. but you get to say, there's -- we didn't mean this. we're not stating new policy here. we're just -- we're doing what anybody would do. we're taking calls from leaders. >> let me push you on that. is it riling up the base? is there a big hunger to reassert bilateral relations with taiwan as a separate island nation? is that something that trump voters have been talking a lot about?

we missed it? >> maybe not taiwan. certainly china. trump has spent the majority of his campaign talking about how china was swindling the united states and how he was going to renegotiate our deals with china. one thing that absolutely riles china up is when you talk to taiwan. to some degree, he is fulfilling a big campaign pledge to ruffle china's feathers. >> i hear that. that's the flip side of that, you are picking the wrong fight. if you want something out of china, you would work on jobs or the trade deficit or the things that you said you wanted. now you are spending capital, having a fight over something that isn't obviously in u.s. interests according to every administration back to nixon that said they were willing to give up national security chip so to speak because that wasn't the focus. even if you want to be in a fight with china, the argument on substance not just on politics would be, pick the right fight. >> i think there's the element that jay is speaking to where donald trump very much

campaigned on sticking it to china. another big concern that is really just emerged from this call with taiwan is not that he took the call, it's that he wasn't actually briefed in advance. he hasn't been taking a lot of his intelligence briefings. there was not consultation with the state department. it has more do with a question of preparedness. donald trump's team, you heard kellyanne conway say he is aware of the one china policy. is he? over the course of the campaign we saw he is not well versed on the issues. i think the criticism really has more to do with the way he shoots from the hip, that people might compare it to obama -- conservatives compare it to obama's policy toward iran, cuba. those were areas the administration planned and really thought out in terms of policy they were going to pursue whether people agree with it or not. with donald trump, it's more that off the cuff governing style that is certainly we were talking about diplomatic relations, i think it raises a lot of concerns. about what the dynamic will look

like between the united states and some of its key allies moving forward. >> it might be giving it too much credit to call it his governing style, if other countries learn that they can take advantage of ignorance by achieving their objectives, then taiwan punked him and he is here trying to defend it when he didn't know it to begin with. if there's evidence that he knew what he was doing, it certainly wasn't on display in the opening reaction to the whole thing. that seems more like taiwan's agenda than the u.s. agaendaage. thank you for joining. more international update. this ended in a surprise. bill, a lot of people were looking at this as another test of how far right parties are doing, be that around western europe or the united states. what are you finding here in this result? >> reporter: exactly. a test of the trump affect, whether his election would boost those far right parties. there has been a surprise but

not perhaps the surprise that we had been expecting. for months, it was thought that the far right party, the freedom party here, and their presidential candidate had a very, very good chance of becoming austria's next president. he would have been the first far right head of state in europe nce world war ii. the last time this election was run, he came very, very close. well, it turns out that there was a surprise. he was not only beaten, he was beaten badly. seven points, a clear victory. he conceded defeat within 30 minutes. so here, a huge sigh of relief by, if you like, the establishment. austrians have put a block on the trump affect. that's not necessarily the case in the neighboring country of italy. 50 million voters possibly going to the polls today. it's a different kind of vote. it's a referendum on constitutional change. it also pits the establishment

against an insurgency. the prime minister against all the opposition parties over an issue of constitutional change and the power of the government. the result there may be different. he says if he loses, he will resign. if he resigns, there may be a financial crisis. there could be a constitutional crisis. europe's establishment may breathe a sigh of relief about the result here in austria. but the result in italy, we will know it at about 2:00 in the morning, mid evening your time. that is still too close to call. >> watching the so-called populism around the world. bill neely, thank you very much. back on the home front, we are lookin aing aing aing at t effort as we approach federal deadlines. ben ginsburg is here next. for lower back pain sufferers,

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in michigan, there are 75,000 votes which are blank which are sky high compared to all other past elections. they are concentrated in detroit. >> that was green party candidate jill stein pushing for recounts in two crucial swing states, michigan and wisconsin. last night, stein and her backers dropped the bid for the pennsylvania recount saying they can't afford the million dollar bond required under state law. let's bring in ben ginsburg and a former general counsel to the rnc and mitt romney. i want to speak with you. i know that youmulti -- i want to talk to you as a legal expert. what could be achieve through how this works when you do these recounts when they are being

sought by someone who can't win according to the rally? >> the answer is not very much. what you will go through now is sort of rerunning the ballots through most machines. you may look at a hand count. it's far different from the forensic audit of an election that many skcholars and the presidential commission i served on have recommended. those are not performed in the heat of a recount when you actually stand to deprive the electiee voters of two states of having their electors in the ee clek toral college. the audit is a good idea. a recount is not the vehicle to achieve that. >> on that point, you still have this set of concerns around the country that are often only animated by whether people are angry that their side lost. but depending on what's happening can still matter to people generally which is do we do this as well as possible given the options with today's

technology? or are we woefully far behind with a patchwork system given the experience that you have? what would be better to try to give people even more confidence in the final outcome? >> for one thing would be to update the technology the people are voting on. through a variety of circumstances really, most of the voting machines the people are voting on were bought in 2003. that's before ipads came into the world. just to demonstrate a host of technological changes. so there is a lot better equipment that could conceivably be used. it's also very expensive. municipalities and counties are the ones who buy the equipment. they quite understandably want to fix potholes and improve schools before they buy voting machines that are used twice a year. there are some endemic problems in the system. >> now i want to speak to you as a knowledgeable republican. is that okay?

>> this is like mind bending i have do this shift. >> now you think about that. you advise these candidates, candidates are people, people have feelings. it's odd to a lot of professional poe litty co-s to see the president-elect who is in a position of respect respond frequently and erratically to the effort fs at recount, including his false statement that millions of votes were illegal immigrants. what is going on in the emotional piece of this that donald trump gets so riled up over jill stein filing things that i'm sure his experts like you and your former colleagues would tell him, hey, there's nothing here. just move on. >> well, i'm not sure i can really answer that question. what i would say about the jill stein recounts is that they are not worthy of getting riled up about. she stands absolutely no chance,

i think, more discussion of them only calls attention to what is a futile mission. >> mrit beipolitically, why doe bother donald trump? >> i don't know. i don't know if that's a political question or not really. >> let me get to the last question, which is something we have disclosed from time to time when relevant, although you are an independent analyst for us, you have worked at the same law firm as the incoming white house counsel. i'm curious what you can tell us about him as a lawyer. i know you are former colleagues. what role would you expect him to play in a very traditional role, white house counsel, an important counselor and legal adviser to the president, but in what has been promised to be an untraditional white house. >> i practiced law with don for nearly 20 years now. he is a superb lawyer, both as a legal mind, a strategic thinker. and as someone who is understands ethics and rules.

over the course of his practice, we have handled many of the toughest cases. they really fall into two buckets. one of the ones who come to first is you don't tend to read about those. when people get into trouble, they also come to don and the practice. that provides a wide variety of handling individuals both in a counseling role to keep out of trouble and once you are in trouble, exactly how you handle yourself and the arguments that you make to get out of trouble. so that's a superb combination. in other words, much of don's training is under the combat of politics. that's a superb background for the white house counsel. i think all white house counsels and don appreciates that are the ones who sometimes have to say no when people don't want to hear no, because that's what is in the best interests of their clients. >> right. that will be tested here if he

is mr. no with this client, the incoming president. we're out of time. real quick. >> he is a lawyer who finds solutions. sometimes you have to say no. >> right. ben, thank you so much on this sunday. appreciate it. up next, the website steve bannon led is hoping to ride a populist wave overseas and an expansion. will breitbart news find an receptive audience? that's next. ♪ ♪

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welcome back. at the half hour, we have updates for you. breaking news on the massive warehouse fire in oakland, california. we can tell you the death toll stands at 24. the number of victims a s is expected to rise. rescue crews say they have 80% of the building to go through. it could be days before that search is complete. heavy equipment deployed to assist with the recovery. officials calling this the deadliest fire in oakland history.

we have a global update with a look at politics overseas. the growth of right wing populism getting a lot of attention. breitbart sees it as an expansion opportunity. matt bradley is in london for more. >> reporter: thanks. this shift toward the right isn't just helping right wing politicians and their supporters. it's also boosting right wing media as you just mentioned. while many of the european countries already have their own populist often xenophobic media outlets, breitbart hopes to give them a run for their money. take a look. bright b breitbart's steven bannon has shown how big they can dream. the company is taking its show on the road with plans to expand to germany and france. populist candidates and causes are showing increased strength in ballot boxes across europe. >> we're going to continue to be fighters and pick fights that matter. i think that our brand is unique

in america. i think when we expand abroad, that we will prove it's unique there as well. >> reporter: last month, bannon praised france's 26-year-old sigh onof the family who founded the national front party. she tweeted she wanted to work with breitbart. she told nbc that the rise of the interin the he has given a vote to right wing activists like herself. that worries many traditional journalists. >> all of them have this anti-immigrant and often very thinly veiled racist overtone to them. that's the unifying factor. >> reporter: breitbart has written about tommy robinson. >> i've been called a nazi. i despise nazis. >> reporter: he was so suspicious he recorded his own live broadcast for his social media followers. you are recording this right now. why is that? >> because i've been in many

interviews. you can watch one which ends -- i don't know what report you will go on. i don't trust your media. i don't trust any mainstream media. >> reporter: he is not alone. a right wing website didn't respont to nbc's interview request. instead, the editor tweeted our e-mail saying he wouldn't speak to quote fake news. it's a hostility to traditional media that breitbart sees as an opportunity. does uk need breitbart? >> yeah. >> reporter: to do what? >> tell the truth. tell the truth. that's all. all we want is the truth. tell us the truth. >> reporter: today saw the latest of the right wing movements, the far right candidate in austria's election conceded defeat. they saw this as a referendum on

the far right populism that we have seen sweeping continent. but for now at least, that movement to the right appears to have paused in austria. a report on donald trump's plan to help inircities and a response from a civil rights leader. eryone. oh! well that's nice! and checking your score won't hurt your credit. oh! i'm so proud of you. well thank you. free at at discover.com/creditscorecard, even if you're not a customer.

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potential in the inner city. we're not using our potential. remember when i would make the speeches? i would say what the hell do you have to lose? the african-american community was so great to me in this election. >> donald trump speaking in cincinnati thursday about his plan to help african-americans. we want to go to ben jealous, the former president of the ncaa as well as an msnbc political analyst. i'm interested in speaking with you because of your naacp background. see the president's remarks there as the thank you tour.

do you see any growth here? are you encouraged by anything? >> you know, look, what i'm still waiting for is for him to make a speech on race, for him to come clean and show atonement for his comments about the central park five, for him to learn that racial profiling does not work and for him to show some sign he will push people to fight against discrimination in employment. it's great to talk about -- he talks about roads and bridges. it's real discrimination in the building trades across the country and cynicism with black folks that those jobs will add up to jobs for us. he he has been a president who said a judge couldn't be trusted because he was latino, who suggested racial profiling is good. so what we're hoping is that he will grow up a bit as president.

that he will show a new side and that he will, frankly, show some sign that he intends to lead a revival of the economy for all of us. >> you mention -- >> so far that's unclear sglu menti. >> you mentioned stop and frisk. he used the debate stage to say the judge who rules against certain tactics when were politicians' policies, that the judge was anti-police. you and i have discussed this before. it's problematic when leaders on either side of the spectrum act like the police have to hold views and then we attack them for the things they're being ordered to do. i have seen law enforcement are ready to do what the democracy decides. >> right. >> he pulled the police in in that way and assumes they agree with his pre-standing position in support of aspects of stop and frisk. what do you make of that and your views of pleaolicing? these issues aren't going away

for the incoming president. >> look, that's exactly right. he hasn't dealt with the fact that most big city chiefs in this country disagree with him when it comes to racial profi profiling. he strikes this fantasy populist tone that most cops somehow and frankly most chiefs support racial profiling and that most people somehow want to see more unarmed black men shot. he really has to grow up and own up to being president of the entire country and representing all of us. it's nice to hear him act like black voters support him. most of them didn't. regardless of who voted for him, he now serves the entire country. his plans for the economy, his plans for law enforcement have to treat all of us the same. all of us as if we are deserving. all of us as if we deserve not to be discriminated against. quite frankly, the last few weeks for most black parents in

this country, most muslim parents, latino parents have been terrifying. we have seen an increase in hate crimes and hate on campuses across the country. that's why i'm saying so urge urgently, it's time for mr. trump to actually grow up, stand up and speak as if he leads the entire country. >> what about steve bannon? it's not a senate confirmed position. he has this top job in the white house. he said he is personally not bigoted and that may or may not be the case. the website, of course, breitbart, has a lot of racist, anti-semitic and other controversial statements which he ran. what do you want to see from him? would you meet with him? w where does that go? >> i would be happy to have a beer with him or trump or with any of the guys in hopes they might actually listen. with that said, when you have made your money or a lot of money using racism and homophobia to fuel your media empire and you used it to win a

presidential election, there is reason that many in this country are saying you do not belong in the white house. mr. trump simply cannot run his administration the way that he ran his campaign or the way mr. bannon ran that and breitbart. >> ben jealous, former naacp director. thank you. >> thank you. my government guest suggest donald trump build a different wall besides the one at the border. next hour, meet the press will play with vice-president-elect mike pence. don't miss that. ♪ (laughs..) here it is. ♪ ♪ aughs..) here it is. hey dad! ♪ wishes do come true. the lincoln wish list sales event is on. ♪ get exceptional offers on the lincoln family of luxury vehicles. sign and drive off in a 2016 lincoln mkx

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president-elect trump is vowing to leave business operations once he takes office. he will hold a press conference to explain on december 15th. "the new york times" has a piece that says business since birth, trump's children and the tangle that awaits, delving into how they can separate their business

from the government's. joining me a former ambassador who was special counsel on white house ethics among other things to president obama. we have about three minutes. i want to do this as an ethnics lightning round. i think you are up to it. is it enough for him to step away operationally if he still owns and benefits from everything? >> thanks. it's not enough for him to step away operationally as he said in his tweet storm the other morning. he is also got to step away from all interests. he has to build a big, beautiful ethics wall like every president has done for the past four decades and establish a blind trust or the equivalent with a trustee who is independent, not a family member. an independent trustee who takes over all of his interests and liquidates them and then turns them into some other investments that trump doesn't know about. >> question number two. >> that's what presidents do. >> question number two lightning

round. is it enough if he has a so-called blind trust but knows everything inside, if he knows it's trump tower and the post office building and he is not actually divesting? >> no. he has got to divest. so it's a multi-stage process. st one, sign it over. one stroke of a pen to an end pend enter trustee. the trustee figurines out throu a private he cequity how to con those assets into money. he breaks the operations link and he breaks the interest link. step three, he takes that money. he hides it behind the ethics wall. he buys other things that trump doesn't know about. trump is totally out. >> next question is about something that we get so messed up about in our politics and certainly in the media, which is that everyone is evil, everything is a bad thing, everything is about whether

someone has bad intention. can you walk through something that is so legally important, which is having a conflict of interest doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you? donald trump wanting his children to prosper and have money in the future have a conft of interest meaning that there is nothing wrong with you and donald trump wanting the children to prosper and have money h in the future is not a bad thing and how most people view it, right? and the problem of the history of the law and the ethics here is that the conflict, itself, puts it in an impossible position, and not that each desire you have itself is wrong, right? >> ari, like all americans, many i am saddened by this finger pointing, and i agree that we should try to help, and indeed, i'm speaking out about these issues from the place of wanting to help the president, but it is not just you and me that are worryied about this, and the founders of our country felt irrespective of the motive that there should be conflicts, and protections and they wrote them

into the constitution, and it is called the emollients clause, and fancy word and all it means is that there is no president who shall be receiving the benefits from foreign governments or from the foreign government agents, and why? because even if you have the best of intentions, yourself, you can't help but be influenced. >> yes, exactly. a soinld pornt to winning the constitution, and so this is not a place of criticism or partisanship, and shoot the transition group reached out and i was proud to tell them what to do. >> when did you speak to them? >> well, i spoke to them in the crispy days of the transition, and i was delighted to do it. yep, it was are reported in the "washington post" and i would pick up the phone right now, ari if they are watching and all americans should avoid these devastating conflict, and that is trump is who is running out of time. >> and so, now, you know that

president trump, nor mice nor men and happy to share that item. you make it clear if you were in charge of law schools they would be much less painful. thank you, norm. >> thank you, ari. and our next guest says that the tempers are flairing in beijing. stay tuned. or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. fi...one of many pieces in my express i havlife.hma...es so whemy asthma symptoms kept coming back on my long-term control medicine. i talked to my doctor and found a missing piece in my asthma treatment with breo. once-daily breo prevents asthma symptoms. breo is for adults with asthma not well controlled on a long-term asthma control medicine, like an inhaled corticosteroid.

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the chinese government has s submit ad for mall protest regarding prc ining president-ed trump's phone call to taiwan. and if there were a plan to change the one china diplomatic policy, is this the way to do it? >> well, it was premeditated by the way, and it is not some sort of trump getting a phone call out of the blue, because steve yates on a trump transition team was in taiwan and it would have been unlikely for when the taiwan president to call out of the blue. if you are going to change the

policy, there is a number of ways to do it, and i would have done it differently after the interagency review after trump was president, but the question is going to be, how are they going to go forward if they have pence walking this back, it is not a good way to do it, and you need to is a clearer message, and trump one way or another needs to impose some discipline. >> what is in the u.s. interest in picking this fight with china over the relations with taiwan? >> i think that the interest is to establish es seb shally the united states going on the offense, and the chinese have challenged both president obama and george w. bush their first months in office in dangerous ways, and trump is saying well, i am takeing the initiative and the united states is back in charge and you can do that, but you have to be willing to fight it, because the chinese have more political will than most american leaders and trump may well back down, and that is -- >> why is this the fight?

>> well, it does not matter what you start out with, as long as you have a clear plan and willing to go forward wit. >> and to be strident with them? >> well, not strident, but firm and to make shure that american interests are promote and the interests of the american community. >> thank you, gordon chang. i'm ari, and you can find me on facebook.com or go old-fashion ed at "meet the press. "" coacng means making tough choices. jim! you're in! but when you have high blood pressure and need cold medicine that works fast, the choice is simple. coricidin hbp is the only brand that gives powerful cold symptom relief

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when you find something worth waiting for, we'll help you invest to protect it for the future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase, so you can. this sunday, after a post truth election, do the president-elect's words matter? this sunday, after a post truth election, do the president-elect's words matter? donald trump's first campaign manager says, maybe not. >> this is the problem with the media, you guys took everything donald trump said so literally. >> when candidate trump says -- >> we're going to drain the swamp. >> what does he mean? what about repealing obamacare or the conversations with the leaders of taiwan, pakistan and the philippines? this morning, my interview with the vice-president-elect, governor mike pence of indiana.