when you find something worth waiting for, we'll help you invest to protect it for the future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase, so you can. this sunday, after a post truth election, do the president-elect's words matter? this sunday, after a post truth election, do the president-elect's words matter? donald trump's first campaign manager says, maybe not. >> this is the problem with the media, you guys took everything donald trump said so literally. >> when candidate trump says -- >> we're going to drain the swamp. >> what does he mean? what about repealing obamacare or the conversations with the leaders of taiwan, pakistan and the philippines? this morning, my interview with the vice-president-elect, governor mike pence of indiana.

post-election bitterness. >> i would rather lose than win the way you guys did. >> no, you wouldn't. >> we're bringing together top campaign figures from the trump and clinton campaigns. kellyanne conway and joel bennenson. and why after losing 63 house seats did the democrats choose the same leadership team? >> i have a special spring in my step today. >> can democrats reach new voters with the same old team? joining me for insight and analysis are amy walter, rich lowry, andrea mitchell and heather mcghee. welcome to sunday, it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. there used to be an ad campaign

on tv when i was a kid for ef hutton whose tag line was when ef hutton talks, people listen. when the president of the united states or the president-elect talks, people listen. what he says has consequence. but now whether it is draining the tramp or repealing obamacare or persuading companies not to leave the united states, we're being told by his staff and by mr. trump, himself, you shouldn't take him literally. except perhaps when you should. remember when candidate trump said this about president obama during the campaign? >> he is the founder of isis. he is the founder of isis. okay? he is the founder. >> next day, hugh hewitt assumed we were not to take mr. trump literally. >> i know what you meant. you meant he created the vacuum, he lost the peace. >> no. i meant he's the founder of isis. >> in that case, we were supposed to take him literally. the question is, after what many have dubbed the post-truth election, are we getting a look at a post-truth presidency?

trump's first campaign manager argued at a campaign postmortem this week that his words don't matter. >> this is the problem with the media, you guys took everything that donald trump said so literally and the problem with that is that the american people didn't. >> and a e though trump promised in april to keep the carrier jobs in the u.s. -- >> we won't let carrier leave. >> and he said announcing this week that after half of those jobs will be staying, he said that he did not expect him to be taking little -- literally. >> he actually said this week, while announcing that half those carrier jobs will stay, that he did not except to be taken literally. >> i said, carrier will never leave. but that was a you've mix. >> the idea he is not fully accountable for his words became a campaign trope.

>> the voters take donald trump seriously as a candidate. >> as trump shifts from campaigning to governing his words will have legal, diplomatic, political and national security implications. as past presidents have quickly discovered. >> the british government has learned that saddam hussein sought significant quantities of uranium from africa. >> i did not have sexual relations with that woman. >> you like your health care plan, you keep your health care plan. >> friday, trump, himself, learned that words matter after he broke from decades of d diplomatic precedent and took the call of the president of taiwan by a u.s. president-elect since 1979. ainngering the chinese. indians are befuddled after trump called pakistan's prime minister a terrific guy and promised to visit the country. when can u.s. allied, enemies, members of congress and voters take trump at his word? nbc counted 141 distinct shifts on 23 major policy issues during trump's 511-day white house run.

during the campaign, trump said he was going to repeal obamacare. now he is promising to keep the most popular elements of the law intact. during the campaign, trump pledged to dump the paris climate agreement. >> we will cancel this deal so that our companies can compete. >> now he says he will keep an open mind. during the campaign, trump promised to end pay to play politics in washington. >> drain the swamp. >> now, former governor sarah palin is calling the carrier deal crony capitalism. ultimately, donald trump's success may depend on how literally his supporters take his promises. >> politicians are always saying they want to drain the swamp and get rid of lobbyists and cast their briefcases into the potomac. the lobbyists are not going anywhere, but they do expect him to put the lobbyists in their place. >> joining me now is the vice-president-elect of the united states, and still governor of indiana mike pence. mr. vice-president-elect, welcome back to the show.

>> good morning. good to be here. >> let me start with some foreign policy and the issue with taiwan. does the president-elect intend to break with one china policy? >> i think the conversation that happened this week with the president of taiwan was a courtesy call. she reached out to the president-elect and he took the call from the democratically elected leader of taiwan. it's one of more than 50 telephone calls that the president-elect has taken from and made to world leaders in the midst of a historic pace and cabinet appointments and senior appointments, building a legislative agenda, even traveling the country and saving 1,000 jobs in indiana. it's all a reflection of the energy and i think it's the kind of approach that you are going to see him bring to challenges at home and abroad. >> so this was an intentional sort of challenge to the foreign policy establishment a little bit, to the u.s./chinese dip e low -- diplomatic

establish mement? >> no. this was a courtesy call, the democratically elected president of taiwan called to congratulate the president-elect. and as a gracious man -- >> nothing new should be read into it? >> well, i don't think so. i think -- i honestly think that what world leaders are finding, those that have reached out to the president-elect, those that i have talked to -- i have talked to several dozen world leaders. i spoke to king abdullah yesterday. i think there's a great sense of enthusiasm and optimism around the world, because they're counting in president-elect donald trump a strong leader with broad shoulders who is going to advance america's interests, but he is engaging the world on behalf of america. >> the chinese are upset about this. >> he is also going to be engaging the world on behalf of america.

>> i chinese government is very upset about this. do they have a right to be? do you tell them, back down. you are over worrying? what is your advice to your counterparts to china? >> i think i would say to our counterparts in china that this was a moment of courtesy. the president-elect talked to the president two weeks ago in the same manner. it was not a discussion about policy. we will be preparing, after january 20th, to advance what will be president-elect -- president trump's agenda. >> have you or the team or president-elect trump reached out to the chinese government since this bubbled up? >> not to my knowledge. >> should we expect a call this week to calm the waters? >> chuck, i wouldn't -- you know, i wouldn't expect so. to be honest with you, the waters here seem like a little bit of a tempest in a tea pot. it's striking that president obama would reach out to a murdering dictator in cuba and be hailed as a hero and president-elect trump takes a courtesy call from a democratically elected president of taiwan and it becomes something of a thing in the media. i think most americans and frankly most leaders around the

world know this for what it was. it's all part and parcel -- i think you are going to see in a president donald trump a willingness to engage the world. >> here was a headline. and let me jump to pakistani president, and this is the headlines of the international newspaper in karachi. "trump ready to play role in resolution of issues. "" let me ask you, is he offering to mediate border disputes -- i guess pakistan wanted to imply that, that he was offering to mediate border disputes between pakistan and india. >> there has been great tension between india and pakistan in recent days. it's resulted in violee along the kaz mir are region.

i think what the president-elect expressed in conversation with leaders from both countries was a desire for continued u.s. engagement and building the relationship with both those countries. these are two nuclear powers. the president-elect recognizes that. and making sure that they know that when this administration takes office, that we intend to be fully engaged in the region and fully engaged with both nations to advance peace and security. >> to be a mediator in deciding cashmere? >> i think in president-elect donald trump you have someone who is prepared to advance america's interests here at home, to rebuild the economy, to fight for american jobs. but i think you are also going to see an energetic leadership in the world, prepared to engage and to look for ways that he can bring those extraordinary deal making skills to bear on lessening tensions and solving problems in the world. >> are you guy using the state department foreign service professionals when you use these phone calls, getting the okay, the protocol talking points that are not partisan but as you know sort of that have been accepted as sort of international norms? >> chuck, the president-elect and i have had the privilege of

receiving presidential daily briefs. we receive the formal daily briefings that come about during the course of the transition. and i know the president-elect has been briefed as he has been making the calls. i saw a report that during his transition, president obama reached out to 22 world leaders. president-elect trump has already spoken to more than 50 leaders around the world. he has bn iefed. those have been courtesy conversations. but it's all part and parcel of beginning the kinds of relationships that will allow our new president to advance america's interests in the world. >> where are we on secretary of state? when donald trump did the thank you tour in cincinnati, there were chants of "no romney" and what did he make of that? is mitt romney still a top tier candidate for secretary of state? >> i think what people are seeing in the transition, which

is moving -- it's outpacing all of his predecessors for the last 40 years. to be around donald trump as you know, having known him for a number of years, is to be around a man of boundless energy from literally the day after the election. historical election where he won 30 out of 50 states, more counties than any candidate on our side since ronald reagan. we went right to work. my job, chairing the transition, has been to bring together the broadest range of men and women with diverse backgrounds for him to be able to choose these key positions. he has chosen over a dozen senior positions. even before the end of november. with regard to secretary of state, we have been winnowing the list. it might grow a little bit. i think to talk to the president-elect is to know he is simply looking for the best men and women to advance the agenda that we know will make america great again. >> it does seem -- you heard early names and it keeps broadening out. what is it about the current field that he hasn't found yet? >> it's not a reflection of the current field. i think everyone that he has talked to and has been talked

about, whether it be rudy giuliani or mitt romne or general petraeus or senator co k corker, john bolton and others bring extraordinary background and qualities to this. i think you are going to see -- i think you are going to see the president-elect continue that process to ensure that as he has a vision for really reengaging the world with an america first agenda, advancing america's interests in the world economically and diplomatically, that he is going to make sure that he has the right person in that role just like he is in every role. >> given how high profile the e-mail situation was, the classified issue was for secretary clinton during the presidential campaign, how significant is the conviction against general patraeus in your thinking and the president-elect's thinking when it comes to secretary of state? >> first, let me say that general david patraeus is an american hero. led forces in battle.

acquitted himself of great distinction, and he paid a price. >> dud id he deserve to pay a price? >> he paid a price for mishandling classified information. >> you don't think that disqualified him to be secretary of state? >> i think that will be up to the president-elect. the president-elect will weigh that against a backdrop of an extraordinary career whether it's as secretary of state or another role. it will be the president-elect's decision about the totality of general patraeus' experience and background. but i first met general patraeus when he was commanding the 101st airborne in iraq. then i saw him marshal the plan and the resources for what became the successful surge in iraq. he is an american hero and he has our great respect. >> let me ask you this. define the phrase drain the swamp. people hear different things when they hear that phrase.

what should the american people hear? what is your definition of draining the swamp? >> i think drain the swamp is a commitment by the president-elect to once again have government as good as our people, to have a direction in washington, d.c. that isn't working for the political class and the lobbyists, isn't working for wall street but it's working every day for the american people. it's one of the reasons why we set the policies even in this transition, you know, from the time the president-elect asked me to take it over. we asked people that were active in the lobbying world to step aside from being involved in the transition. we're going to set into place a five-year ban on lobbying from the executive branch and a lifetime ban of anyone who serves in our administration from lobbying on behalf of a foreign government. making sure we have people in the administration that are deeply committed to the president-elect's agenda to bring a renewed commitment to america first and america's interests first is what we mean. >> what do you say to people that look at the wealth of

individuals being named to the cabinet and say that seems like a different type of swamp. the wealthy are well connected even if they weren't washington players. what do you say to that criticism? >> i say what the president-elect said the other night in cincinnati. he said, people have talked about some people that know how to make money being appointed to the cabinet. he said, it's better to choose people who know how to make money than people that don't know how to make money. the truth of the matter is that as you look at the selections of the cabinet and those who have been named like steven mnuchin and betsy devos, and they are people who are going to bring the same caliber of intellect and experience in the world economy that our president-elect is bringing. we will go out there to fight for american jobs and american interests. >> some conservatives not happy.

when it comes to donald trump's cabinet, it makes the establishment in goldman sachs great again. this is the swamp draining trump. what do you tell mark levin? i would tell my friend, all of these appointees are signing on to the trump agenda. whether it be the ethics reforms that we're going to advance, whether there be our commitment to cut taxes, to roll back regulations, repeal and replace obamacare, we're going to have a team that is ready on day one to work with members of congress to get this economy moving again and have america standing tall in the world again. >> quickly, two more questions. on carrier, why isn't this pay to play politics? you gave a tax break -- some people could say you gave a tax break to carrier so that they would only send 700 jobs overseas. sarah palin called it crony capitalism. why isn't it? >> we were heartbroken in february when carrier announced they were pulling up and taking all of their jobs south of the border to mexico, closing factories in a couple locations in indiana.

i asked them at that time whether or not the state of indiana could offer any incentives that are very routine in the competition for jobs in the country. they said, don't bother. we don't want to look at incentives. make no mistake about it the only reason that carrier is staying in the united states is because donald trump is elected president of the united states. the leadership at united technologies and carrier -- >> this is a government intervening in the private sector? why is this not government intervening in the private sector? >> first off, remember not more than 1,000 hoosiers have certainty in their jobs and in their futures going into this christmas season because of the leadership of donald trump. >> 700 don't. >> i couldn't be more grateful for that. >> 700 don't. indiana can't be more grateful for that. >> i know the glass is half empty. >> it's not about the media. >> what you saw -- >> the media -- hitting the media is a crutch for you guys. it's not about the media. >> it's not a crutch. >> there's 700 -- what do you say? >> here is the bottom line. i was in the room when he made the call. what the american people have

now in donald trump is someone who will be a champion for the american economy. he pick d ted up the phone and to the leadership of this company, look, we are fwog to cut taxes and roll back the regulations that are driving companies like yours out of the country, and renegotiate trade deal deals so that they put american jobs and american workers first. he just asked them very respectfully to reconsider their decision to leave. as governor of indiana, i couldn't be more proud and more grateful that now more than 1,000 americans have certainty in their economic future. more than 1,000 jobs even before he becomes president of the united states. i think it's just the beginning. stay tuned. be ready. donald trump's going to be fighting for american jobs, a champion for the american economy. >> mr. vice president elect, that is all of the time that we have, and i am hoping to have more time with you, and i am guessing that will be coming up in the future.

thanks for coming in. >> thanks. coming up, with emotions still raw, are clinton campaign staffers being sore losers? and are the trump folks being sore winners? we will bring together top officials from both campaigns to see if they can hug it out. [ cough ] shh. i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. better take something. dayquil liquid gels doesn't treat a runny nose. it doesn't? alka-seltzer plus cold and cough liquid gels fight your worst cold symptoms including your runny nose. oh, what a relief it is! ♪ gaviscon is a proven heartburn remedy that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief. it immediately neutralizes acid and only gaviscon helps keep acid down for hours. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief, try doctor-recommended gaviscon.

so we know how to cover almost almoanything.hing, even a rodent ride-along. [dad] alright, buddy, don't forget anything! [kid] i won't, dad... [captain rod] happy tuesday morning! captain rod here. it's pretty hairy out on the interstate.traffic is literally crawling, but there is some movement on the eastside overpass. getting word of another collision. [burke] it happened. december 14th, 2015. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

welcome back. the panel is here. heather mcghee, amy welcome back. the panel is here. heather mcghee from demos, and amy walter from national review and andrea mitchell from nbc news and rich loury.

andrea, let's start with, why isn't donald trump's tweet about this right? we gave all this money to taiwan. everybody makes a big deal over a phone call. the average american sitting out there going, this seems like the typical washington thing that means nothing to my life. >> it won't mean anything until something goes really bad with china, economically or militarily. look, this is arguably the most important relationship that the u.s. has. there has been no call, no conversation -- it doesn't matter who made the call. the point is the conversation happened. and even here someone as careful as mike pence referred to her as the president of taiwan. >> that's a no no? >> that's a no no of the one china policy devised articulated and finalized by jimmy carter. it has been bipartisan. the chinese are ripped, but they are trying to seize -- they will seize on what mike pence said. it was one of 50 calls, it was a courtesy call. try to move on in a certain way. they are looking at donald trump in a very different way. they were hoping -- this is a businessman, we can do business with him. this is not barack obama who will bludgeon us over human rights. now, we have to arm ourselves.

this is a new relationship. >> ari fleisher tweeted, i hope that this is intentional. he would like it better if this san intentional decision. is that where you are? >> well, i'm the wrong guy to ask, because "national review" opposed this and we still consider taiwan as a province of ch china. obviously, you can reconsider these diplomatic arrangements that have been just accepted for decades. you need to do it with some deliberation that appears to have been lacking in this instance. >> he even said in the interview with him that we're going to get to policy when he is the president. right now, this is about courtesy. theoretically, you should be already having a policy and then everything you do from now through your presidency is moving forward on that. so this is a candidate who ran

as i'm unpredictable, you are not going to know what you are going to get, which a lot of voters liked about him. when it comes to the world stage, unpredictability can be very dangerous. >> are we making too much out of this? >> no. i think the other thing that casts a shadow over every phone call he maches is the self-dealing. we know so many of the conversations he is having are with countries and leaders where there are massive trump corporate interests. this is where the trust that he hasn't yet built by actually creating a blind trust, not just saying his kids who are close to him will run his corporation -- it's undermining even the sort of benefit of the doubt that some people mighgive him. >> what about this word is when you take him literally and all this stuff. really, i'm sorry this is coming across to me as ludicrous. when i heard corey lewandowski say, you people in the media -- frankly, the words matter. lie of the year was barack obama. that was a case and it cost him, cost his party a lot of political problems. words mattered for george w.

bush. he got accused of lying to get into war. can they really expect to govern this way? >> well, the kind of outlandishness and exaggerated way he expressed things was part of the key to his appeal to a lot of his voters who are going to have to get used to a president of the united states who is going to communicate differently. more direct. more informal. it's occasionally going to be bizarre. but the one thing i think we need to focus on is the words are going to matter more. but what's going to matter most in a couple months in the performance. if he delivers a more robust economy and there's not a blowup overseas -- all these controversies will be gone. >> i am sorry, but we should not stop being appalled at the the serial disrespect this man has for the facts. there's a man headed to the white house that has a relationship to the truth that is unbefitting of our country. the other sort of latent thing we're talking about whether we take him literally or seriously is how dangerous he is. honestly, we are going to look back at this moment and ask how much backbone we all had at this moment. are we going to follow those in

his party like romney and ryan and cruz who frankly ended up putting their love of power ahead of their love of country, or are we going to have the backbone to stand up for our neighbors who are under threat right now and stand up for our constitution and our values and the planet? >> let me say one word about the foreign policy aspects of this. that is why you have a national security adviser, whether it's vince scowcroft, steve hadley, sandy berger, tony lake, this is what the defense secretary wants, and this is what i believe, if you want. these are the risks and benefits. if you want to change china policy, accept this phone call. here is what's going to happen. you are being told, john bolton has written this is a great thing to do. but this will be the after affect. you now have to make that decision. that's the problem i'm not sure that he is getting that kind of advice. >> more so than the literally

and seriously, i think kellyanne conway has a better way of saying this which is things that offend voters versus things that affect voters. you can be offended but to rich's point, if it affects me, i'm going to feel differently about that. i think we also have to remember his policy and how it actually ends up in people's lives, affecting people's lives. it's very important. the other thing is to remember that we have -- we still have a very divided country. for all the talk about he won because he did this, he is coming into a country where you have 2.5 fewer votes and where you still have to reach out to those people who didn't support you and show them that you are going to affect their lives positively. >> i want to hit you with one more issue, rich, that is on this carrier deal and this idea that this is crony capitalism or it -- if barack obama had done this, conservatives would have pounded him across the board. peggy noonan wrote this week -- this is called economic

nationalism, but whatever the name, it name, it is a new conservatism. and this is i know, let's start conserving something. do you accept this as new conservatism? >> no. i will say, look, the positive thing is the gop needed to become the party of workers. and donald trump is forcing that change. the tax incentive part of this, it's not ideal policy making, governors do it all the time. the truly extraordinary and from where i sit disturbing part of it is to have a president-elect threatening companies for making business decisions he doesn't like. the fact of the matter is, no one has the leverage to stop him from doing that and it's probably going to be popular. >> paul ryan's house, are they going to roll over. he is threatening 35% tariffs. he did that again this morning in tweets. paul ryan's house going put up with that?

>> there are affirmative parts that won't pass the house. i think paul ryan and others had this conception of president trump as the guy who just signs their bills. that's not the way it's going to work. they will find themselves following his lead much more than they expect. you have seen it on the carrier deal. >> you know several hundred thousands jobs churn every week in the u.s. economy. these are 7,000 jobs. he is a great storyteller. this is a narrative that is going to be very appealing to a lot of people. >> it was a bad deal. the numbers are still coming out. but the latest -- did you read the carrier letter? it started out saying we are pleased to inform you and ended up talking about all the jobs that would still be shipped overseas. the numbers i'm looking at say less than half are actually staying. >> that truth will not catch up -- >> he was using other people's money. he doesn't like paying taxes. it was a bad deal. the better way to actually say that we are on the side of workers is to look at the tens of millions of service sector jobs that are not going anywhere. i would like to see him go to target or walmart or mcdonald's and say i support $15 an hour. >> i will pause it there.

interesting ways you both don't like the carrier deal for very different reasons. but very -- it shows you the challenge trump is facing. when we come back, it has been nearly a month since election day, and as we find out, nerves are raw on both sides. we will talk to kellyanne conway and joel benenson. as we go to break, we want to remember grant tinker, chief executive of nbc. he was once married to mary tyler moore. he died this week. he revamped nbc and the entertainment street. thought we would honor him here. i said, "delivering to you is always a special treat." oh. company, companionship, food... we all need those things. when we get in that spot in life, it's kind of nice to have 'em there. (avo) through the subaru share the love event, we've helped deliver over one point four million meals to those in need.

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welcome back. this we'e welcome back.k this week harvard hosted its traditional postmortem. key figures from not only winning campaigns,ut the

losers as well. what's typically a thoughtful and reflective forum soon turned hostile as tensions ran high in both of the general election campaigns. clinton communications director accused breitbart run by steve bannon of promoting racist views. >> he is providing a a platform for white supremacists makes him a brilliant tactician, i am glad to have lost -- >> you think that i ran a campaign where the white supremists had a platform. you are going to be looking me in the face and say it did? >> it did. >> trump campaign manager kellyanne conway took issue with joel benenson for bringing up clinton's popular vote lead. >> the fact of the matter is that more americans voted for hillary clinton than donald trump and so put it in total con t context. >> there is nothing that said that the road to popular vote is -- >> that is what i premised the statement by saying that. >> and you cannot -- hey, guys, we won and you don't have to respond. >> well, kellyanne conway and

joel b-- bennenson join me now. we will see if that is yelling. they promised there won't be. let me ask you this, different versions of the same question. joel, i will start with you. are you being sore losers? >> no, i don't think we're being sore losers. i think we have acknowledged and i acknowledged in the exchange that they won. he is president-elect. but i was also saying and taking issue with the notion that there was a mandate and that when you talk about connecting with people over america, hillary clinton had 2.5 million more americans vote for her than donald trump. i'm aware of the currency of presidential elections, the electoral college. i've been on three winning presidential campaigns. but a mandate is when you win big in the popular vote, when you win big in the electoral college vote. i don't recall kellyanne saying that president obama had a mandate.

i don't recall kellyanne that president obama had a mandate or any republican saying he had a mandate. >> are you being a sore winner? you have done this a few times, your own twitter i think the bio says, we won. it's like i dropped the mike. >> chuck, first of all, i showed respect to my colleagues for over two hours before this happened. but the fact is that we are -- we're the ones who understood america. the idea that we're going to talk about the popular vote answers your questions about sore losers. the idea that donald trump doesn't have a mandate after he got 100 more electoral votes than mitt romney, he got 306, it wasn't close. he won states that had not gone republican in decades. by the way, if this had been a race for the popular vote, we would have won that, too, because mr. trump would have campaigned in california and in new york, and stayed in florida perhaps and the population-rich states. we did what you are supposed to do to become president. campaign in the battleground states, actually have an economic message that appealed to workers across the country, actually talk about patriotism, defeating radical islamism,

rele peeling and replacing obamacare with the premiums that have people screaming at their mailboxes. the idea he doesn't have a mandate when they lost the white house 60 seats in the house, over a dozen senate seats, over a dozen governorships and over 1,000 state legislative seats, this is democratic party is having an identity crisis and a circular firing squad what i heard is, it's bernie sanders fault, anybody but hillary clinton's fault. >> a lot of people look at what you have said and what others have said, including the president-elect at his rally in cincinnati and say, team trump, they can't seem to accept winning. that they haven't been gracious in victory. what do you say to that? >> chuck, you know, what i am going to hit back on that. i'm an incredibly gracious and humble person. every single media outlet, including this one, on good days ignored us, on regular days mocked us.

that included when i told you and your colleagues there is an under cover under counted trump vote. there's not. maybe it's under counted for hillary people said. these rally sizes matter. it portends the momentum that is owned by donald trump. we're the ones with the message. we're the ones turning these counties around that president obama carried twice. with over 50% of the vote, and we switch ed 200 counties, and e did it with messages that mattered to people. he is the guy that talked about veterans, and talked about defeating terer errorism. we were mocked and ignored. go back and look at the headlines two weeks out everywhere. the talk on networks like this, we were completely dismissed. secretary clinton wasn't even mentioning donald trump's name most of the time. >> joel, let me turn to you. she brought up this. it seems as if -- we gathered the reasons that you and others have given to hillary clinton's defeat. james comey, third party candidate, sexism, young voters, media, obamacare premium, bernie sanders, health rumors. what wasn't on there was the point kellyanne brought up, hillary clinton.

does she accept any responsibility for this defeat on her own? >> look, i think the reality here is that there was this -- this was was a strong campaign. kellyanne conway said they had a better message on the economy. when you look at voters who said they vote for someone who cares, hillary clinton won. when you look at voters who said the economy was the number one issue, hillary clinton won those voters. i think the issue now going forward is -- i think kellyanne conway again today, kellyanne talked about his economic message. i think he raised the bar very high. this is a guy who during the campaign built his businesses on the back of the little guy. now voters are going to hear him as president call for giving the biggest tax cuts in history to corporations and very wealthy americans. >> you are not answering my question. do you accept this -- >> he did answer your question. they never accept it. >> i also said in that panel when we were asked what we have to do differently during the course of the day, the democratic party can't just keep

winning the popular vote in presidential elections. we have won them five out of seven times. we have to rebuild at the state levels. they did a very good job in some of the states that they had to win. they did a good job, obviously, in michigan and wisconsin by eeking out narrow wins in those states where we -- they hadn't won previously. >> joel, let me ask you this. if the election -- i will get you one more shot. joel, if the election were the first tuesday in january and you had another six weeks here, what's one thing you would do differently in the last four weeks of the campaign? >> just probably do more. >> what though? >> i would do more states. i would hit more states more frequently. i would probably ask for another debate. probably ask for a faith forum to hear hillary clinton and donald trump both talk about their roots in faith and the strength of hers which i think are dominant. i think we would also probably keep talking about those tax cuts i just mentioned that we're going to hold him to during the course of his presidency.

the biggest tax cuts. twice as big as the bush tax cuts, and i don't think that people think that is what is going to help them, but that is the high bar he has the clear. >> kellyanne, he went on this thank you tour. he will continue it on states he won. does he have a plan -- do you give list advice -- i asked you this before and you haven't answered it -- to go to states but meet with voters who didn't vote for him? he is down in the popular vote. say what you want. we are a divided country, and the california vote counts as much as the pennsylvania vote. considering how divided we are, does he have plans to do that. >> he does. i have answered this many times. he started saying i will be the president for all americans even those who did not support me. he is not even inaugurated and he is going around doing this, bringing -- keeping jobs in the country through carrier. he will be a very actively traveled president.

joel hit on something that's absolutely correct but wasn't done by his campaign. you have to show up where the people are. you just can't -- you can't just have a flood of advertisements and this vaunted ground game that didn't work. you have to go where the people are. secretary clinton took off a lot in august. we had 137 events to her 88 or so events after these conventions. donald trump did not take five days off before that final debate on october 19th in las vegas. secretary clinton did. everybody said, she's so brilliant to take off five days. voters said, where are you? come to me. bring the message here. he will be a very active president. he will go to every nook and cranny of this country. he will be the president to all americans. it's time for those who lost to say he is their president, too. >> kellyanne conway, joel benenson, you are correct, neither one of you yelled at each other. very respectful and good. >> this is the full jersey. we are jersey guys and gals.

>> new york. >> fair enough. >> new york, kellyanne. >> thank you both. a little less heated than harvard. in case you missed it, ♪ is it a force of nature? or a sales event? the season of audi sales event is here. audi will cover your first month's lease payment on select models during the season of audi sales event. (bing) ugh. heartburn. sorry ma'am. no burning here. try alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. they don't taste chalky and work fast. mmmm. incredible. can i try? she doesn't have heartburn. alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. enjoy the relief.

we are back. data download time. only five times has the person who won popular vote not won the presidency. two have been in the last five

we are back. in only five times has the president won the presidency and not won the popular vote. we may see it more in the future and here is why. two have been in the last five elections, since 2000. we might see it happen more frequently in the future. of the six most populous states, democrats have won california, new york and illinois by double digits since 1992. of the other three, democrats have been making gains in texas. it was big time this cycle, hosting their own in florida. only pennsylvania of the top six seems to be edging to the red column. all of this helps explain hillary clinton's growing popular vote margin. over 2.5 million votes right now, actually. of course, part of the reason for the popular vote, electoral college split is something we're calling superfluous votes. once a candidate wins a state, is it doesn't matter how many votes they win it by. anything more than one is unnecessary. by that standard, hillary clinton had 10 million extra votes that made no different to her electoral college total. donald trump by the way had 8.3 million, quote, extra votes.

that's despite the fact that trump won 30 states while clinton won 20 plus the district of columbia for a final electoral vote tally. the democratic strongholds are growing in population. they will continue to favor democrats in the future. it also means it could be a while until we see a republican win the popular vote again. that doesn't mean they won't win the presidency. because it's in the states in the industrial midwest where this election was decided. pennsylvania, wisconsin and michigan. if these states continue to be tightly contested with a slight shift, tilt to the right, we may continue to see this split between the popular vote and the electoral college when republicans win it going forward. when we come back, democrats have been losing big time at the congressional level. why did they re-elect the same leadership that was in charge of the house democrats when they lost 63 house seats in six years?

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back now with the panel. heather, i want to start with you. back now with the panel. heather, i want to start with you. because house democrats this week had the first shot at sort of deciding a new leadership team or stick with the old leadership team. they decided to stick with the old leadership team when if you just look at the metrics, they didn't seem to earn the right to stay. why do you think they are there? >> i think the change at the top is always going to be the hardest. what you are seeing right now across the country is more grassroots mobilization of

democrats and would-be democrats. we have to remember a third of young voters voted for a third party candidate. there's a prairie fire of activists who are saying we want democrats to have some backbone. you have had young people sitting in the offices of schumer and other folks saying don't shake hands with the white supremacist republican party. there are trends reaching up to the question of who the leadership in the congress is in the 2017,' 18 and primaries. there's as much energy at the base of the democratic party right now that there was at the base of the party. >> there's a simple explanation. it's the math problem for democrats. two-thirds of the house democratic caucus comes from the west coast or the eastern seaboard. the base is not middle of america, tim ryan from rust belt ohio.

when we started in the business, there were southern democrats. there were midwestern democrats. there were blue dog democrats. they are gone. >> isn't that the problem, given the electoral problem? >> the geography problem is that they will not be in control in the house. >> i look at this election and -- republicans want to say, see, democrats have a white working class problem. i look at the popular vote thing and texas, and republicans have a latino problem. both things are correct. >> i think what democrats will likely conclude is the way they try to reach trump voters is the bernie sanders style economics. what i think they will have a harder time grappling with is they need to make some nod to the cultural concerns of the voters. if the bill clinton were running this year, someone like colin kaepernick would have been ripe for a moment.

you are a privileged person. the lead you can do is stand up during the national anthem. no democrat would say that except for bizarrely ruth bader ginsburg and she had to apologize. >> i have heard that from some other democrats who don't want to be quoted on record saying that. they are afraid it would make the base angry by saying what rich just said, that bill clinton would figure out how to close this gap culturally. >> that's part of why particularly young people did not vote his wife. you cannot -- we cannot just follow the conservative southern strategy to try to split working class people who are white from working class people who are people of color. this is a moment for democrats and progressives to recognize that when you have a strategy that's actually just propping up the 1% by dividing everybody else, you will always lose. it will always be close margins. >> it was a change election. we saw it as early as the new hampshire primary. she was not connecting not just

to the working class voters but to the young people and to the women, the young women. that generation gap was a major problem for her. >> i think another thing that will be difficult for democrats, at the end of the bush year republicans were ready the move on from bush where the democrats adore and revere barack obama and they can't get around the fact that the party was devastated under him. >> that hurt republicans in the '90s. they couldn't recover from reagan. it might be the same instance. we will be back in a moment. end game segment, both campaigns are blaming the media for their problems. is it possible they are both right?

end game time. at that

"end game" t end game time. at that infamous harvard session, both campaigns, andrea, you were there. you mad -- moderated. both campaigns didn't just tacitly blame the media. they unloaded on it and made it a central part from the winning side and from the losing side. is it possible both campaigns are right? >> or wrong. i think the media -- we all missed it. we missed a lot of signals. in terms of coverage, donald trump was live unedited in all of the rallies on cable for months and months and months. he got his message through. hillary clinton did not get her message through. and that is arguably a fair complaint. but that's because of e-mails, that's because of a private server. there was a lot blame that has not been acknowledged by them. for her original decisions and her lack of transparency. >> do you buy -- >> they didn't have a message. the coverage can be faulted from

both sides for not being substantive for not forcing both sides to talk about issues. >> i know where you will be on the quote unquote liberal media. do the clinton people have a case? if you were in their shoes, would you be angry at the media? >> i think the republican candidates in the primaries felt this way, that trump got extraordinary direct access to the media. in the general election, a lot of the coverage was extremely hostile. i think kellyanne is right. broadly speaking, people like us for a solid year treated them like idiots. it's understandable that having pulled this extraordinary upset off they might feel triumphant about it. >> part of the problem of the media going in until the night before the election saying it was pretty much impossible for trump to win is that you actually had 25% of trump voters according to exit polls who cast the ballot and didn't think he was unfit for president. you had this sense that there was a protest vote even within the trump vote when people were

looking at the polls and saying, this is just going to be a message vote. i'm going to send a message because clinton is going to win. >> do you think in 20 years when historians look back they will -- the media's role will be as high or it will be celebrity culture and our -- that trump took advantage of a cultural moment? >> there will be a million books written about that. i will say two things. the first is that the obama campaign did it in 2008 and the trump campaign did it this year. the media, they like to go around the media. we don't need the media. we have twitter, texting, facebook. on the one hand, it's the immediate why's fault. on the other hand, we don't need the media. we can make end runs. the second is what the media has done and very poorly -- sorry, is to make congress inept. >> that's all right. i gotta go. we will try to alert the affiliates for a second hour. it won't happen this week, but maybe next week.

if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." >> you can see more end game in post game sponsored by boeing, on the "meet the press" facebook page. hello,'m richard lui and a very good sunday to you. welcome to "pulse of america" right here on msnbc where your voice can be heard in real time. these are the stories that we want to get your pulse on today. the chinese state media saying that donald trump's phone call with the president of taiwan exposes a trump team with a different take on the foreign affairs, and was accepting the call a shrewd move or mistak