let's just get a sandwich or something. "or something"? you don't just graduate from medical school, "or something." and we don't just pull smoked chicken, bake fresh foccacia and hand-slice avocado. there's nothing "or something" about it. a very good sunday afternoon to you. richard lui in new york city. want to start this hour with a lot of breaking news. first off coming out of north dakota where there appears to be an parent victory for those who have been protesting a proposed

pipeline. the army corps of engineers saying the sioux chairman the current pipeline route will be denied. cal is there live. you reported this for us, the breaking news, about 20 minutes ago. if you can, tell us what you know again. >> so the easement has been denied by the army corps of engineers. they have called ahead of the standing rock sioux tribe, david archibald ii, and given him the news. he is about to announce it to a camp of thousands of people. you will hear roars of celebration. we've already heard sort of word spreading. what does this mean? this is absolutely an historic moment and the relationship between native americans and the united states federal government. the pipeline is not going to run under the missouri river. our own tammy leitner has just spoken to david archibald ii. he has confirmed that the phone call came from the army corps of engineers and they will now look to do an environmental impact study on the pipeline to figure out where it will end up being routed, but it will no longer run under the missouri river,

and that is what the people who have been at this camp have been asking for. they've been asking for it to be rerouted. i want to remind our viewers, the pipeline was rerouted around bismarck, north dakota, and it was rerouted through this tribal area. what is supposed to be a sovereign nation of the sioux tribe. and that is what started this all many months ago. we'll go ahead and pan off. you can start hearing some of the drum beats. the crowds are sort of forming. we expect the official announcement from david archibald ii to his people at any moment. as i said, he's already spoken to our tammy leitner. he told her that the call came in about an hour ago that the pipeline construction will be halted immediately. this is a major victory for the people who have been here for months, richard. >> and, cal, a part of this is just the amazing energy that has been gathering there in north dakota. monday was that deadline that you were so closely following, this as we saw thousands of

individuals, many, many veterans coming to this location over the weekend. and i can't imagine the number of folks that are there right now. give us a sense of that. >> and we'll go ahead and keep our cameras on the camp because you'll start to see movement. there are 2,000 veterans here. there are about 10,000 people. and it's still growing. people are still arriving at this moment as the word sort of spreads out. the officials, the authorities who are on humvees, 24 national guard humvees just on the other side of the camp, they wanted to avoimass confrontation. a few people were hurt. the optics were very, very bad and they understand. when you add the arrival of the veterans it changed the dynamic on the ground. and it's very difficult, of course, for the sioux nation to keep control of a campaign finance reform that is ever building and ever shifting, and that also i believe played a big role in this.

>> cal perry with the breaking news coming out of cannonball there, north dakota, the easement denied, the dakota access pipeline will not pass close by that sioux reservation that has seen so much news and so many people gather. we'll stop by with you, cal, a little later this hour because we want to hear from what those who are there are thinking now that this good news for them has come to pass. cal perry, thank you for that. also breaking news this hour, oakland, california, officials announcing a short time ago 30 bodies have been pulled from the debris in that massive warehouse fire friday night. they are asking for family members to be to provide sours of dna to help in the identification process. >> proactively toll eliminate future delays, the alameda county sheriff's office coroner's bureau would like to ask the loved ones of the missing to preserve sources of

dna, and that could be hairbrushes, combs, or toothbrushes. we ask that those items be placed in a secure, clean paper sack. do not send them to the coroner's bureau. we will ask for them as we need them. >> nbc's steve patterson in oakland, california, where this breaking news is happening right now. this hour when you and i spoke yesterday, steve, the death toll was believed to be nine. now we're at 30. only about 20% of that warehouse has been investigated. what is the reaction there will from officials if you are able to speak with them or get a sense of that. they have another 80% or about that amount to look through. >> reporter: that percentage has increased so they have been able to make some progress. i just spoke to sergeant kelly with the alameda county

sheriff's department. he said that number has increased so it's still less than half of the warehouse that they've been able to search but it's certainly above 25% to 20%. to have 30 bodies come out of that with still half the warehouse to search is still monumental and the workers have to be exhausted at this point. i spoke to him about the shift change. the workers who are currently still on this current shift have pulled out more than a dozen bodies themselves. not only that, they're clearing out some of the debris. they have to do it in a way that's fast, efficient, respectful of the people that were trapped inside, and they have to do it in a way that's safe for them as well. this structure completely structurally unsound. they've had engineers come in and make it okay for the workers to go in there at this point. since we've been talking this has been a dangerous situation not only for the people trapped in there last night but the

workers in there today. we spoke to a survivor who was inside who knew about this building before he went in. i want to play some sound just about their thoughts on whether or not this was safe going to that party last night. >> i've been in plenty of spaces like that and i always think about safety and stuff, but fire never crossed my mind. i was thinking this floor is a little -- it's all kind of diy. i saw fire extinguishers around. i kind of assumed there were smoke detectors but i honestly didn't hear any alarms. >> reporter: another presser, we expect the mayor, we expect the sheriff's department again to release even more information about the progress of these workers as they continue the hard work of recovery and identification then investigation. richard? >> steve patterson, thank you for that reporting and detail. appreciate that.

joining us by phone is a former occupant of that warehouse, what is called the oakland ghostship warehouse, russell mcgowan. russell, i know there's a lot of heavy hearts, yours included, as we are getting more news just this last hour, the death count now up to 30, and more than half of the warehouse still to be looked into, to be investigated as they go forth. do you know anything about what happened that night? did you speak to any of those who wanted to attend with gathering at the ghost ship. >> yes. this experience hit close to home. even had a friend -- there was an underground party there that night and one of my friends almost even went to it. just a terrible tragedy. had a few friends that lived there. the biggest issue with that pace is it's beautiful, there's all kinds of diy art in the

downstairs area but it basically created a labyrinth for the place. i lived there for about two months and i would sometimes get lost just trying to get out of the building. >> russell, you were speaking with us yesterday. you offered so much good information about what it's like to be in there so i can't thank you enough for that. give me a sense of how dig it is, how wide and deep and how many rooms. i know it's tough but give me a rough estimate from your recollections. >> i mean, i feel like the place is somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 square feet and there were many different groups. there was well over a dozen people living there at the time i was there, both upstairs and downstairs. most of the rooms were trailers in that thing, they weren't even fully constructed rooms and the other thing is a lot of windows had bars on them so even in a situation like this i don't think people could have es camed through the windows. >> and you were describing to us

that you went in there at some point and wanted to build your place to stay there. how would that work? you'd have to pay rent but build your own place within this large shell? >> yes. that's correct. that's how a lot of these different warehouse buildings work. artists come in and they kind of build up the place themselves, kind of the beauty of the places. the big thing besides here is this place was definitely unusual just in terms of its construction and the fact it wasn't really safe. i've lived in these warehouses in the last five years and this was the first line after a month or oliving there i decided it was not a safe place to stay. >> how much did you have to pay? and what sort of heating sources did you have? because it was a warehouse. >> it wasn't -- if i got cold, i would usually just bundle up. the thing with a lot of places like this is it's expensive to

live in the bay area, usually around $400 to $500 so, there are in different artists and such in these communities and a lot of times we go to these buildings because we can't afford normal housings which is typically a thousand dollars or more for a small apartment. >> is there a dozen of these, a half does than you know of? >> there's a dozen or more across the bay area. they're beautiful places and provide a lot of opportunities for people to pursue their art and creative processes that they can't normally do in typical housing. >> yeah, russell. it has been tough for the bay area has we have an important artist community that's made its name there and other economic forces. i thank you for taking the time and many hearts as i said earlier are heavy from the bay area, and i know yours is one of them. russell megowan, appreciate your time. >> no problem. thank you. >> as the search for bodies continues, they said it was going to take about 48 hours at

least. authorities beginning to investigate what started the fire. and you heard the conversation that we were having there with russell about what sort of heating sources they have. jim kavanagh, retired atf special agent in charge. we talk a lot about catastrophes. this one is tough for similar reasons to tore incidents. in this case we have someone trying to do something good and this happens. looking for affordable housingihousing, staying in these collectives. you heard when i was talking with russell, on a night it was hitting the 40s, right, if a winter month, trying to keep warm, how do you do that? i heard there are propane tanks. we don't know the source and how

this fire happened. what's the first thing you're thinking, jim? >> well, what's going to happen to find that out, whether accidental from a heater, accidental from hooking or it could be incendiary, in other words, set by a human hand, a human hand unintentionally or set by a human hand intentionally. it could be a cigarette, a candle, arson. all that is yet to be determined. such a tragedy for these families and all these young artists. it's a horrible case, really. atf's national response team will dig that out. not a big scene for them to investigate. the issue of course is all the people inside who have to be removed and that's got to be done and done appropriately. 30 so far. that takes a little time.

>> many in their 20s. >> many in their 20s. and these places are all over. i've been in many myself. the people are upbeat. they're the artists and musicians of america, so it's ally hard to see this, but the fire codes are there for a reason. fire can go over these shallow walls. there's no fire breaks. there's no stairways. there's no smoke alarms or sprinklers. it really becomes a death trap. if you're living in my kind of place, you have to make sure at a minimum there's more than one exit. >> on that point, as we look at one of the pictures from two nighs ago, this is a sinlder block structure with steel windows and class, and the question to you as an expert of this type of stuff, is it seems that they're trapped. there's no way to break through walls at least if you're a firefighter, if it's made of

wood. these are concrete. >> exactly right. being an arson investigator my whole life and bomb and arson doing that my whole life, my father being a firefighter for 33 years, i don't even go in a hotel i don't count the doors to the fire exit, i don't know where every fire exit is, i don't know how to get out -- i always do that. everybody needs to pay attention to that stuff. tragically a lot of people died here. it moved real fast. a lot of them probably died from the smoke. they probably got smoke inhalation before the fire got to them. but the fire load de in this building, you see this tremendous fire lode. that's your furniture, your carpet, your drapes, all the wood construction, all of that's combustible materials that will burn very hot. of course inside as you point out the cinderblock, it keeps it in. what's so hazardous now for the teams recovering the people inside also for the investigators is those steel trusses as you see them going across the warehouse, we normally would go in and move though with cranes if they're in

hour way. we would take those first witnesses -- you had on two key witnesses talking about what we're searching for, the early fire. we're always looking for witnesses to early fire, the videos that show us early fire and the first responding engine company to tell us where first fire was because we want to get back to the area of origin of the fire to pinpoint the point of origin of fire and then determine the cause of the fire. those witnesses talked about early fire. get the fire extinguisher and trying to get it down. that's important. >> that's why they're going slowly. there were reports that the fire extinguishers were there, did not help. tell me one thing we should be watching because we'll get more information at 5:00. what's the one thing you're looking for that would tell us more of this story? >> well, just really right now it's juls recovery of the victims. let's get that number, get these families notified. that's overall the most

important thing for everybody there, and then it will slow down a little bit and take about a week to get in and get all that stuff out to see if they can determine the cause, the origin of the fire. >> jim kavanagh, thanks so much. >> thanks, richard. up next, the latest fallout from president-elect trump's controversial phone call with the leader of taiwan and his search for secretary of state. ♪ when you find something worth waiting for, we'll help you invest to protect it for the future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase, so you can. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪

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president-elect will step into the oval office and still a numb per of key cabinet positioning remain unfilled, many, in fact. tomorrow they're expected to announce general james mattis as secretary of defense, top transition advisers saying the search for secretary of state has expanded. this all comes amid criticism of the president-elect's phone call

with taiwan's newly elected leader. kelly o'donnell joins us. mike pence saying today this is a courtesy call, a manner of process. >> mike pence is often in the role of defending donald trump and he's done that throughout the campaign and now in this phase. so he knew those questions were coming and is trying to tone down the outside criticism that this was a breach of protocol, this was a dayway to provoke china, to be unsettling to the diplomatic community. mike pence tried to say, hey, nothing to see here. let's watch that clip from "meet the press." >> chuck, this was a courtesy call. the democratically elected president of taiwan called to congratulate the president-elect and as a gracious man -- >> nothing new should be read into it? >> well, i -- i -- i don't think so. >> one of the things that makes this interesting, richard, is typically when a new president is in this phase of preparing a government, the current state department which is filled with career employees, not political employees, would provide a briefing dossiers on world

leaders, would be able to give some essential talking points to know what some of the trouble spots might be, to make that available, and secretary of state john kerry says the trump team has not reached out in any way to his office or to those career diplomats to look for that kind of help. now, the trump folks will say he's getting briefing and intelligence and other kinds of input from people in their universe, some of the people who are already a part of his team, but not officially from the state department, and that may have contributed to this phone call key fooe i can't say coe that we've seen unfold over the last few days. >> point you made about the career diplomats that are there that can provide some sort of background and context to such environments. we got you here. there's also news coming out of what we were talking about at the top of the hour, who's going to be the secretary of state. >> so if there were a secreta of state nominee perhaps he or she could al weigh in on this. that highly coveted job is not as easy to fill or donald trump is taking more time. so we've seen some prominent people from mitt romney to rudy

giuliani to david petraeus to bob corker, the top senate republican on foreign relations. we've heard other names like john bolton, ceo of exxon, rex tillerson. today we're told that john huntsman, republican, former utah governor but also served as ambassador to china under the obama white house in the first term for obama. he also ran for president. he left being ambassador to china in order to begin his failed bid to win the nomination in 2012. so he is being talked about as someone who brings world stage experience and at the same time he was critical of donald trump during the campaign phase. we'll have to see how easily donald trump would relate to him given that. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell, thank you for that. two more pieces of information as we move forward in the hour. thank you, kelly. i want to now bring in two individuals, joined now by "new york times" reporter yamish alcindor and katherine mangoo

ward. yamish, john huntsman, good choice? >> that's not for me to say but the idea is that donald trump will be doing what he does, weighing or not this person was loyal or not. he'll have so to satisfy his base, looking for someone outside the box, or whether or not he'll go with establishment republicans and give them swunl that they know, that they consider to be they feel can do the job in a way that is kind of sticking to the conservative ideals. >> catherin is this a way of say, all right, we don't want mitt romney, so let's bring in another utahan, another mormon? >> you have to feel bad for john huntsman. he always does seem to be b-list mitt romney in these kind of situations. yeah, i think, you know, the idea that his pool includes both john bolton and john huntsman and he's taking calls from taiwan, if i were china right now, i would have no idea what's going on. and i'm not 100% sure trump does either. >> yeah.

that might be the case. taiwan also looking at perhaps this realignment, and since you sort of keyed that off for us right now, yamiche, i want to ask you this question. the taiwan call, we're talking about it today because it is completely at least early on realigning. initial thoughts on the way the relationship might be with taiwan, the relationship might be with china. it forces the question about intelligence briefings and whether the president-elect is actually receiving those. i'm going to go to reince priebus before i get your thoughts. let's listen. >> he's certainly informed. he's getting briefed. and it feels like every day. i'm not sure if it is every day, but it's a lot. and it's who he is. it's someone who studies and someone that wants to be informed and someone who asks a lot of questions and listens. >> what are you hearing, yamiche, in terms of these briefings and donald trump and his team receiving them? >> from my understanding, donald trump, something that came up

before, this idea of how often hee he's doing these briefings. at one point it seemed like mike pence was getting more briefings than him. i will say donald trump, inasmuch as people might be upset about how he's handling these things and how he's kind of freewheeling it, he's in some ways acting as though he really wants to be able to kind of bask in this and really wants to be able to do what he feels like he can do as a president and set a new tone. case in point, the call with taiw taiwan, the call with the taiwanese leader, donald trump can say i can pick um the phone for whoever wants to give me ghagss. this is my moment. i'm going to take this call. i don't think we should jump to conclusion and say we're realigning u.s. policy. 1979 was the last time a u.s. president spoke to a taiwanese leader. so i think what donald trump is doing is carbon monoxide of pushing buttons and seeing how far he can go because he ran in some ways a freewheeling campaign and that worked for him. >> worked for him in u.s. elections where you can be at

least when we saw him this last cycle, a little more free with your language, you can actually walk back things but when it comes to the issues of sino-u.s. relations, it's more complex. katherine, can we walk this back? is this not a major realignment as yamiche is saying? >> sure. right now he's in the transition period. i think this is still easily reversible and frankly i think there's at least one explanation of trump's approach here, which is that by presenting himself as a kind of shoot from the hip, fly by the seat of his pants guy, he does give himself more opportunities to say, oh, i didn't really mean that when something is received badly. at the same time, you know, i do always hesitate to attribute some sort of sinister overall plan when it might just be pure incompetence at work. >> pure incompetence, or, yamiche, was this intentional? >> i'm not in a position to call anybody incompetent. what i would say is that i think maybe they didn't take into

considering how this would be covered and viewed. the idea is maybe his team thought, yes, we could take this call, yes, he can congratulate him, but that doesn't mean we'll be changing policies. it's too early for that. he's not even in office. going forward, they're probably learning a lesson in terms of how they'll have to deal with these leader. i will say donald trump will be marching to his own tune and i think going forward we're going to have to see whether or not his presidency is going to adhere to the policies and the procedures that other presidents had or if he's going to have a complete completely new way of doing things. >> great perspective. yamiche, thank you, katherine, thank you so much as well. all right. we're following breaking developments out of north dakota this hour. protesters appear to have won their fight against a proposed pipeline. live report next.

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i'm lie lie live from msnbc world headquarters in new york. we have some breaking news.

top story out of oakland, california. 30 people now confirmed dead. we got that information just within the last hour. this after that massive fire ripping through a warehouse in oakland friday night. investigators will continue to carefully search through debris for several more days we're hearing now. at this hour, only about 40% of the building has been searched. they have p the majority of it to go through. right now the cause of the fire is still being investigated. we'll get you more updates throughout this hour as we get hem. now to another breaking news story. north dakota, a major decision reached regarding the dakota access pipeline within the last 30 minutes. the secretary of the army corps of engineers telling the standing rock sioux chairman that the current pipeline route will be denied and will not now run near the standing rock reservation. big news there. nbc's tammy leitner at the site of the protest in north dakota.

i can't even imagine the reaction for the thousands of individuals that were waiting for this good news. >> yeah, richard. let me tell you, here at the camp, the atmosphere is a celebration. there is singing. there is dancing. everybody here is so happy. and just a few minutes ago i spoke to the chairman of the standing rock sioux tribe after he got the news. he is a very proud man, a humbled man. he keeps his emotions very close to his chest, but he was very clear that this is a victory and that they feel this battle is over for them. let's go ahead and listen to what else he had to say. >> you know, i'm just thankful that there were some leaders in the federal government who realized there was something that's not right even though it's legal. for the first time in history american indian issue, heard our voices, and had the courage to

take initiative and make the right decision. >> reporter: sit over? >> i would say that it's over. >> reporter: wee been out here for days covering this story and we've seen a large spectrum of emotions out here from anger to excitement and happiness. gratitude. dustin has been out here almost since june. is that correct? >> yeah. >> reporter: what's going through your head right now? >> it's like -- i don't know, it's like a surreal moment right now, a lot of emotions all up in one. it's happy, joy, all these things because, i mean, i've been here, you know, a lot of stuff. like violations happened to my people. i've been here when there was like a thousand people and just a couple tenltds and heard the stories and seen all the nations come together and all the people come together and it's just, you know, huing people. it's a victory today. it's just so -- it's overwhelming right now. i don't know what to do, you know? i want to celebrate, jump in the snow, things like that.

it's serendipity. >> thank you, justin. obviously, they are saying this is not just a victory as far as the pipeline goes. they're saying this is a victory for all native americans out there. this decision is monumental and will be remembered for years to come. richard? >> tammy, is there any possibility of an appeal? and i can't also help but notice there's a little more noise behind you compared to at least reports before. >> reporter: i spoke to the chairman about that and asked if there was a chance this could be repealed with a new administration and he said to me if that happens we'll deal with it then. so obviously everybody is being optimistic and hopeful that it doesn't happen. today out here at the camp it's a day of celebration as you can hear behind me. >> tammy leitner, nbc's correspondent on site in north dakota. thanks for that report. a short time ago donald trump tweeted this -- the green

party just dropped its recount suit in pennsylvania and is losing votes in wisconsin as well. just a stein scam to raise money, he says. coming up, why some say the recount could be hurting democrats. plus, we will talk live to connecticut congressman jim heinz leading an effort to remake democrat spoos a more fiscally responsible party.

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welcome back. familiar faces still lead democrats in congress next year. a group of moderates wanting to help steer the conversation along the way. the new democrat coalition began nearly 20 years ago. the group making up more than 1 in 4 members of the house democratic caucus, describing itself as fiscally responsible. the elected connecticut congressman jim heinz this week the chair of the new democrat coalition. he join us from washington. representative, thanks for being with us. congratulations on being chair and i'm sure you're very happy about that. >> thank you, richard.

>> i want to move quickly to this, this idea of what was done with carrier in indiana. from your perspective, as a fiscally responsible democrat and understanding these economic issues both domestic and international, how can carrier's isolated success for those 1,000 workers or so be repeatable? >> it's a good question. let me step back and come back to it. in the tease there, you know, help make the democratic party a more fiscally responsible party. conventional wisdom to the contrary, the demratic party is the party of fiscal responsibility. look at the last 16 years. the eight years of president george w. bush, two wars, not paid for, massive tax cuts, huge spending, massive expansion of government and of course the deficits ballooned. this president, barack obama, of course, inherited a $1.5 trillion deficit and in the eight years of his presidency that deficit has been cut down almost below a third of what it was that he inherited. so i'm not going to give up the

argument that democrats are actually a lot more parsimonious and careful about the pursestrings than the republicans have ever been. i think that informs your carrier question. i'm thrilled that hundreds of employees of carrier are going to have a better christmas than they would have had otherwise. but let's face it, the president of the united states calling up a company in the state in which his vice president is governor, that's probably not a very scaleable model for economic development in the united states. so that points us to other things that trump has said and done like a big infrastructure plan, like a reform of the tax code that actually would if done correctly have a very positive effect on our economy. >> because of your experience op wall street as well as now in d.c., i want to move to this from the issue of carrier to president-elect trump's nominees for treasury secretary as well as -- talking about steve mnuchin, as well as nominee for commerce, wilbur ross. do you see these as two people you can work with to put together reform, economically and fiscally?

>> well, it's a little hard to know until they actually go through the confirmation process and talk about, you know, kind of what their intentions are. it's a lilt hard to know until we really know where president-elect donald trump is going to go. so, for example, if he really dedicates himself to what he said he would do, that is to say a massive project of investment in our infrastructure, our roadways, our railway, our ports so we actually have a 21st century real estate structure, boy, i'll be happy to work with him on that and make it a smart program. on the flip side, if it's same old, same old, massive tax cuts for the wealthiest in the country, we tried that back under the administration of george w. bush and all it did was really explode our deficit. so mnuchin, i don't know mnuchin or ross personally. you know, my hope is as business people, and they both are business people, that points to perhaps some level of pragmatism, some level of experience and how the economy really grows. but we're really going to need to see where this president

goes. >> isle take your answer as a maybe. >> very well. >> something you know well, dodd/frank. when you speak with corporate directors and when i intend those gatherings try to understand that space, you cannot go through a conversation without hearing dodd/frank. how would you make it better? >> well, you know, first of all, we have to have an honest conversation about dodd/frank. the republicans are going to have an opportunity to actually see whether they really intend to do what they say they want to do, repeal the affordable care act, throw 20 million americans off insurance, repeal dodd/frank? really? you want to take us back to a time where you could get a mortgage if you had no job and there was no credit check? do you want the derivatives market completely opaque and nobody know who is's selling what to whom and that got us aig? i think if the president-elect and his people go to those elements of dodd/frank you asked about, areas where we probably have some work to do, and i would list at the top some regulatory relief for our smallest banks -- we tried when

we wrote dodd/frank to provide relief for the smallest bank, probably didn't succeed as much as we would have liked to. if that's on the agenda, that's a good thing. this idea of wholesale repeal is first of all unrealistic and secondly profoundly dangerous. >> you and i could talk for a long time, representative himes. the new chair of the new democratic coalition, thank you so much. jim himes, appreciate it. ? thank you, richard. >> for more on the challenges facing democrats in the age of trump during this time as representative himes was discussing at least fiscally, i want to bring in mike morrie, former communications director for chuck schumer and senior white house reporter for politico. mike, let's start on this topic right here. as i was thinking through what has been happening in the recount efforts, and we talked about michigan, pennsylvania, and wisconsin, criticism that's coming across as nothing's going to change, the outcomes don't appear, at least what donald trump is tweeting right now, that it will change the count at all and end up showing that donald trump will still be the

vote winner in these states. is that the case? do you believe that this might be a waste of time, a waste of money? >> i don't know how one can say it's a waste of time when you actually started the entire rumor there were millions upon millions of illegal votes that were cast in the presidential election. you can't have it both ways. you can on the one handle sort of throw suspicion over the entire process to say somehow you were going to win the popular vote but illegal votes made sure you didn't, and then say but let's not count the votes anyway. it doesn't make a lot of sense. i don't know that it will change the outcome. in pennsylvania there was a 20,000 vote difference hillary clinton gained as they started recanvassing. i think you'll see changes in the numbers substantiall that 20,000 votes in pennsylvania remits double the margin by which donald trump won in michigan. to say we shouldn't count those votes is foolish and i think to some degree for democrats and liberals it's a great process in terms of energizing a base that

had been really upset about a loss and showing them, look, this is way you want to play the game, you want to say something illegal happened, give us the opportunity to demonstrate the fact that something illegal didn't happen. >> edward, there is along with this vote the idea that as we recount the vote that it may disproportionately hurt minorities because of the reaction to these recounts in that you'll have more restrictions in voter laws. do you agree with that? >> it could happen. look, that's obviously this whole question about how the voting laws have been shaped in states to disproportionately affect minority voters is very real. those laws have not been as much part of the conversation in michigan and pennsylvania, but in wisconsin there was a law there that was challenged in part because of this question. so, look, donald trump before he was elected president was obviously throwing a lot of questions onto the legitimacy of

the vote. he had said he would accept the results if he felt that they were right. obviously, on election night he decided that he felt like they were right. but in that time, as mike was saying, he has cast some more doubt on what's going on here, made this claim that seems like it's jt from some fringe conspiracy thinking about the millions of illegal votes, and so maybe he's going to have to answer where he got that from and everybody else will be answering where they got this questioning from given that hillary clinton had said and all of us reporters had said when they shougt she was going to win that they were expecting that the race should be over on election night and the loser should accept the results. >> mike, one liner on that. >> look, i think isaac's right. at the emd of the day you cannot be in a system in which you constantly throw out conspiracies and when someone attempts to answer the question you throw out there then get

upset it's happening. the notion that the trump campaign is suing to stop recounts runs against his entire message about a rigged system. here you are trying to rig a process by which we actually count every single vote. you can't have it both ways. either stop tweeting nonsense or accept the fact when you tweet nonsense people will want to prove you wrong. >> i owe you one, isaac. thank you both on a sunday. this one is from channel islands national park. coronado. saguaro. you'll see there's one that's an eagle.

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we're continuing to follow the reaction to the major decision just reached regarding the dakota access pipeline. kevin kramer, who called on president obama to deploy law enforcement resources to subdue protesters issued this statement -- i hoped eve an lawless president wouldn't continue to ignore the rule of law. however, it was becoming increasingly clear he was punting this issue down the road. today's unfortunate decision sends a very chilling signal to other who is want to build infrastructure in this country.

senator bernie sander, who helped deploy support for the protesters, reacted to today's decision with this -- i appreciate very much president obama listening to the native american people and millions of others who believe this pipeline should not be built. in the year 2016, we should not continue to trample on native american sovereignty. we've seen donald trump challenge the political status quo here in the united states with his anti-establishment movement. now the same thing could happen in italy as their referendum is now under way. italian prime minister matteo renzi with his job on the line casting his vote in today's referendum on constitutional reforms which in part would remove power from the senate. renzi says he will resign if the reforms are rejected. it has major implications as italy could leave the eu and their currency could likely collapse. opposition politicians have vowed to press for a new government if voters reject that proposed constitutional change.

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happening now, an update on breaking news we were following for you at this time yesterday. investigators in cambridge, massachusetts, now trying to figure out what caused a ten-alarm fire that left dozens of people out in the cold. wind-fueled flames tore through the neighborhood yesterday damaging 15 buildings and displacing more than 60 people. some first responders suffered minor injuries in the process. the fire chief saying it was a miracle no one was killed. >> this is a miraculous situation. it looked like a ball of fire, looked like something you would see in a war zone. the fact that it happened in daylight and people were up and around and cognizant of what's going on versus sleeping at night was obviously something in our favor. >> that does it for us this hour. i'm richard lui. thanks for spending your afternoon with us. stay with us right here for

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