would have far less reason to tweet. sadly, i don't know if that will ever happen." well, there's at least one thing he can't pin on the press. trump has tweeted more than 34,000 times on things from his iq to kristen stewart's relationship with robert pattinson. that's all for today. "hardball with chris matthews" starts right now. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington, with a busy hour of news before "hardball." we start with president-elect donald trump, taking another step towards filling his cabinet, all the while dealing with an international controversy. he's tapped dr. ben carson to be secretary of housing and urban development. and for another job for secretary of state, a new name has surfaced, if only at the periphery, jon huntsman, the former governor of utah, who served as ambassador to china under president obama. today, trump also held a meeting with former vice president, al

gore. meanwhile, "the washington post" is reporting that trump's controversial phone call with the president of taiwan upending decades of diplomatic protocol, was actually months in the making. nbc's anne thompson is live at trump tower. anne, thank you. you're at the seat of the action tonight. trump tower. 57th and fifth avenue. so, the big story, is it still the who's going to be secretary of state, or is it, why did i call the president of taiwan? >> i think, actually, the big story here today, chris, has been, what was al gore doing here? the former vice president came here and met for about an hour and a half. you saw both ivanka trump and the president-elect. he was not scheduled to see the president-elect, but he told reporters afterwards that that is who he spent the bulk of his time with and we are told that they discussed climate. that had to be an interesting discussion, as you can imagine, because donald trump has said

that climate change is a chinese hoax, in the past, and as you know, al gore won the nobel peace prize inefforts to get th attention to climate change. >> well, al gore talked briefly, anne, to reporters, as you said, after leaving trump tower. let's listen to the small bit we get from him, here. >> the bulk of the time was with the president-elect, donald trump. i found it an extremely interesting conversation. and to be continued. and i'm just going to leave it at that. >> anne, i think this list of secretaries of state possibilities seems to grow every day. we hear from the associated press that rudy giuliani and mitt romney are fading, perhaps. but john bolton is coming back into the winner's circle again, potentially. what a situation to have for the top diplomatic post. >> reporter: right. and tomorrow we will see yet

another person who has been mentioned for secretary of state, and that is exxonmobil ceo, rex tillerson. he is scheduled to meet with the president-elect. so, yes, we have this growing list of names, including former utah governor, jon huntsman, who is also obama's ambassador to china when president obama first took office. and today jon huntsman told cnbc on that call that the president-elect took from the leader of taiwan, he said it was the right thing to do. it was right to take that call. i think that's another interesting tidbit in this parade of secretary of state candidates, chris. >> we're hearing that the people who come to trump tower have seem to come of their own volition. that they choose to come and pay court. and that he never invites anybody. have you any evidence as to what the calling card is when you go there? people are showing up, i guess to get interviews, i don't know. and it seems like there's an

awful lot of job hunters heading toward fifth avenue. >> i think some of them are job hunters, some of them are just people who want to influence the next administration, who want to share their ideas, but it's also, that's not unusual. i mean, when there is a different administration coming forth, you'll see all kinds of people who get caught up in the excitement and want to help out. it is a bit like watching "the apprentice." you can always tell the really special people, because there is an escort who comes down to get them, to bring them up. but there has been just this confluence of people coming in and out of trump tower last week, this week, and it will continue until all of the appointments are set. >> okay, don't back up, because the camera's sense of depth is so strange, it looks like that bus is cutting you by about 2

inches. >> reporter: you know what, it is. it is about 2 inches from me. >> thank you so much. what a great reporter. thank you, anne thompson, from trump tower. breaking news today, by the way, out of charleston, south carolina, where a judge has declared a mistrial in that murder trial of a former south carolina police officer who shot and killed an african-american man. anyway, after deliberating for four days, jurors sent the judge another note this afternoon, telling him they just couldn't come to a unanimous decision over the fate of michael slager, the police officer. on friday, by the way, we were told there was only one holdout, apparently there are more. we don't know. let's go to nbc's gabe gutierrez, who has been covering this trial for us. gabe, what do we know from the jury? >> reporter: hey, there, chris, good evening. well, earlier today, we received that note from the jury that said that it was more than one. it was a majority of jurors that had, that felt that they were undecided at this point. and by 3:30 this afternoon, it became clear that they couldn't reach a unanimous decision. the judge declaring that

mistrial. we just spoke with walter scott's family. they are disappointed in this case, but we have also learned from the local prosecutor. she says she will retry this case in short order. michael pfleger still faces a civil rights trial, and this comes after the walter scott family was awarded a $6.5 million civil settlement in this case. of course, slager repeatedly said, he said during testimony and has maintained all along that he shot walter scott in self-defense, after scott had allegedly grabbed his taser. but this mistrial coming down late this afternoon after more than 23 hours of deliberations. a lot of questions still remain about what exactly went on inside that jury room. we had heard from the jury on friday that this one juror in particular sent a note to the judge saying that he could not, in good conscience, convict michael slager, and in fact, after many more hours of deliberations today, it turned out that this jury could not reach a unanimous verdict,

chris. >> can we assume now or know now that most of the jurors were going to vote for conviction for manslaughter or first-degree? where were they headed? >> the jury had several options, as you know, chris. manslaughter was one, first-degree, and the third was not guilty. we don't know the breakdown so far. we're trying to find out more from the jury on how this all broke down. we do know that one juror who was committed to acquitting michael slager could not do it in good conscience. we're trying to find more about the breakdown inside that jury room. but extremely rare, rare development, and we heard that jury note on friday,ed that expressed concerns from that one juror, the foreperson even saying that that one juror had issues, and should at one point leave. of course, the judge not -- that can't happen in this type of situation, but they continued deliberating today, and in the end, could not come to any sort of unanimous decision, chris. >> that's the jury system we have and we love it. anyway, thank you, nbc's gabe gutierrez for the reporting

tonight. let's bring in ari melber. ari, do we know. we're all watching this through the news and we have to see what we see, and of course the power of videotape is overwhelming to us, when we see a guy getting shot in the back, we go, that's not self-defense, and that's not my intervening in this case. was there something else in the arguments made in court that offset that? that somehow said there was still justification? >> i would say the short answer is no, not in the evidence offered. when you look at evidence of the incident itself, and we're watching that dramatic video, officer slager handcuffing walter scott while he lays dead and prone on the floor, and moving over -- this is something what the prosecution emphasized, moving what appeared to be a tra taser and dropping it by the body, which the prosecution suggested was planting evidence and suggested his nefarious intentions at the time, there's not much other evidence that rebutted that moment. what there was instead, as you know, that can be so powerful,

was officer slager taking the stand and defending himself in his own words. defendants in these kind of murder cases do not typically take the stand. lawyers advise against it. there are a lot of reasons for that. he was, at times, very clear in trying to say that he felt afraid, that he did the best he could, that his memory was fuzzy, there were some things that he didn't quite remember, but basically trying to make the human case to the jury that he wasn't a bad guy and there were over 15 other character witnesses saying that as well. ultimately, the judge asked the jury not to say whether this was a good or bad person, but to say whether this was an intentional killing with malice of forethought, the kind of evil that is required for murder, or whether it was a manslaughter, where there was still a killing in the heat of passion that was not acceptable, but that we sometimes see when people are riled up. those were the issues before the jury, and to your earlier question to game, i think based on the notes, and this could change. but based on the written notes that were offered to the judge and read into the record, the view of the foreperson was that on friday, they had 11 votes to

get to some kind of conviction. we don't know whether it was manslaughter or murder. we know the jury asked about both charges. that was the state of play friday. by this afternoon, they were talking about more people being undecided and ultimately, permanently, at a deadlock. >> when you're a juror and you're looking at the potential jurors and looking for challenges, how do you spot somebody who's got their mind set in concrete? like maybe this juror is. i'm not going to vote to convict? i'm just not going to do it. it sounds like that's what's coming out of the jury box. >> hard to know, but that's part of that process that the lawyers jostle over at the very beginning of the case, which is trying to weed people out. and they have strikes so they can remove people for almost no reason, because they have that hunch. and the judge as well can question them and ask them to be open-minded. that's their obligation. what was so gripping and to some people upsetting about that one holdout juror's note ton friday, they seem to be torn between saying, i don't want to say to mr. scott's family that no one

is guilty of killing him, but i can't in good conscience convict. that was the key passage the judge read. that leaves the judge saying, wait a minute, if you don't want to say that, do you think there's some kind of crime here? maybe not as high a level as murder, but some kind of crime. and when you say your conscience won't let you, what do you mean? if you mean, i couldn't convict any officer ever, then you shouldn't be on the jury. if what you mean is you have a reasonable doubt, those are the magical words that the law looks to, that you have a reasonable doubt as to whether this was an intentional killing that you think that maybe it was purely an act of legitimate self-defense, well, that would be a good reason. we may learn more if these jurors speak out, chris. and we learned, of course, late today, as you and gabe were discussing, that they're going to retry this case. so officer slager is facing another trial before the same kind of situation and a federal trial down the road. >> great reporting, thank you, ari melber. now back to that big political story. donald trump facing criticism for upending decades of

diplomatic protocol with that phone call from the president of taiwan. we learned the today that call was actually months in the making. richard haas is president of the council on foreign relations and author of the upcoming book, "a world in disarray." thank you so much, richard. what do you make of this? is this big-time problem with the chinese understand we have a newbie president-elect and that it would not mean a big change in our strategy or what? how will they read it? >> i think their initial reading, chris, of the phone call was discomfort, but they were quite careful and limited, even temperate in their reaction. i think to use an american expression, they were willing to cut us some slack. however, i think their reaction toughened when mr. trump did some pretty tough tweeting against china, expanding the disagreement. and when "the washington post" published an article essentially saying, as you pointed out, this wasn't simply a spontaneous event, but this had been months in the making, suggesting there were people around the president-elect who had a very

different agenda, perhaps even to challenge the so-called one-china policy that has been at the heart of the u.s. chinese relationship for a generation thousand. >> i've always been nervous, as a citizen, about getting the chinese angry. do they respond historically dish mean, they went into the war in korea, of course, when we went up too close to the alu river on their border in that war. do we know what it would take for them to pounce and say, enough of this taiwan independence, we're going to pounce on them now. no more phone calls, no more sovereignty here or even pretended sovereignty? >> they've been willing to live with the status quo, as have we, and as has taiwan. and it's been a diplomatic choreography. essentially where everyone says, there's one china, and the united states has a full relationship with the mainland and we have a de facto, but not dejury relationship with taiwan and sell them billions of dollars in arms, and don't have an embassy, but something that

looks and walks and sounds like an embassy and so forth. again, it's all a bit of a finessing and that's worked. if the chinese sense that's going to change and we're going to go from an implicit to an explicit relationship, what they will probably do is start putting pressure on taiwan. the easiest way is economic. something like 30 or 40% of taiwan's exports go to the mainland. so the mainland can do with less trade far easier than taiwan can. so they can put pressure on them. no one's talking about a military operation. china doesn't want a war there. china still buys into the idea that they need a stable periphery in order to grow and development economically. but, you know, don't -- no one should underestimate, at the end of the day, this is an existential question for the mainland. and if taiwan declares independence, they would act one way or another to stop that from becoming a reality. meanwhile, we're on the hook to basically consult and provide

things for taiwan's defense. so the whole idea has been, no one action laterally. china doesn't attack, taiwan doesn't declare independence. and again, we're not anywhere near there. the real question is whether this has put this relationship in play, at a time that the united states and china have more than enough to worry about. >> you're the best. thanks so much, richard haas. i always get nervous about dealing with countries that are very strong and touchy. thank you. good luck with your book. when we come back, other thn headlines from around the world including a big victory for the protesters at standing rock. look at them. there they are. our big hour of "hardball" is coming up at the top of the hour with a wild search for secretary of state getting quite wilder. we're back after this. ♪

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starting in oakland, california, where the death toll in that warehouse fire. look at that, now stands at 36 dead, and is expected to rise even further, but investigators believe they know the spot where the fire started, but they don't have a cause yet, because it's so dangerous to even be inside what remains of the building. nbc's gatti schwartz is at the scene for us. gatti, what do we know? >> reporter: chris, right now investigators can't even go inside to recover more bodies. they suspect that there are more bodies inside of that building, but the building right now is fundamentally unstable. that's it right there. that's the backside of the warehouse. you can see those windows are completely burned out. they fear those walls may collapse in on investigators while they're inside, but we've been hearing some remarkable stories of the survivors from inside of that warehouse. one of the things that one of them told us is one of them jumped out of a window about 10 feet high, and then they ran over here, just to give you an idea of how close that warehouse is to a fire station, they came to this fire station, by the time they got here, the fire doors were opening up.

fire engines had their lights and sirens go, and then they went back to that warehouse, about a block away. as soon as they got there, the flames were already high. no one was supposed to be living there, but it was cluttered and people had jerry rigged systems for electrical systems and had built some propane heating systems. there was one stairwell that we are told by some of the people that live there that was completely blocked off by a bunch of wires. at this time, it's still unclear what started the fire. there were a lot of people upstairs dancing on a wooden floor and a roof collapsed in on that building. investigators are going through. the district attorney has now appointed a team, a criminal investigation team to start looking into this. that's not to say that there have been any criminal investigations or criminal charges filed, but that kind of gives you an indication as to where this investigation may be

headed. chris? >> great reporting. thank you, much, nbc's gadi schwartz out in oakland, california. now a story about a how fake news has led to some very real and very dangerous consequences. this sunday, a man armed with an ar-15 assault rifle fired inside a pizza restaurant a few blocks from here. that had been at the center of a false conspiracy theory involving hillary clinton. police said the man was there to, quote, self-investigate the so-called pizzagate story. a bogus claim on the internet about clinton and a child sex ring that apparently doesn't exist. the man has been charged with assault with a deadly weapon. nbc's tom costello is here covering the story with me. >> i think we can say definitively does not exist, this alleged child sex ring which has been kind of swirling around the internet for weeks and months now. we've talked to the d.c. police, we've talked to the fbi. they have absolutely to reason to believe any of this is true. yet the story has just exploded on the internet.

tens of thousands of people have now viewed these web pages, alleging in that particular pizza restaurant, that that is the center for this child sex trafficking ring, and that there are allegedly tunnels running underneath that pizza restaurant up the street into another store and more stores up the street, including the bookshop up the street, which is seen on c-span almost weekly, because they have these book talks there at the bookshop. i was there today. i said, is there any tunnel underneath here? they said, we have no tunnel. we have a basement. we have no tunnel. in fact, for weeks now, all of these stores in that chain has been getting threatening phone calls, dozens a day. the pizza restaurant, hundreds! alleging that they are trafficking in child sex. they have all said, this is absolutely not true. they, themselves, have called the police asking for help, because they say that they're concerned a about the threats. and then you have this guy show up yesterday with an ar-15 saying he's going to investigate himself. fires a shot into the ground.

thankfully, no one was injured. he was in superior court today, charged with multiple offenses. but, you know, you talk to the folk who is live there, and they're very worried about their little shopping street there, their little shoppette, where they go every day for pizza. and by the way, this is a pizza restaurant frequented by families, by young people, and then sure enough, just down the street, you've got the bookstore. it's really a shame. and it's just yet another indication that fake news has no boundaries, it would appear. and even when you try to verify the facts, people are accusing us of not getting to the bottom of it and trying to cover something up. >> well, i'll take part of the blame. i go to that pizza joint with my nephew and all the kids and all the kids and we've had full tables, eaten a lot of good pizza and diet coke and i love the place. a great family crowd. i think it's terrible, that the owner has given money to a democrat, they've decided to

target this person with this -- >> he and john podesta, you know, are friends in some way. they have a connection -- yeah. >> thank you, tom costello, thank you. great to have you on. moving now to a victory for a group of protesters fighting construction of an oil pipeline out in north dakota. there were fireworks last night after the army corps of engineers denied a permit for the pipeline to cross under a missouri river reservoir in the state. but the trade association representing the oil industry is now asking president-elect trump to make building a pipeline a top priority when he takes office. nbc's cal perry is at the site of those protests in north dakota. cal? >> reporter: chris, in the past 24 hours, the demonstrators in this camp have been through an emotional high and an the emotional low. yesterday, the emotional high came when the army corps of engineers announced it was going to stop the construction of that pipeline, that they were going to instruct the energy company to stop the construction. the low coming just after midnight when the energy company said they were not going to follow that order, that they

would continue the construction of that pipeline. now, for the people in the camp behind me, the weather is quickly becoming the story. wind at least 50 miles an hour. the temperature has dropped some 20 degrees in just the past few hours. these people in the camp, many of them, are not prepared for the conditions that are going to occur overnight. we're talking about windchill temperatures, minus 20 to minus 30 degrees over the course of the next two or three days. it is unclear right now what the national guard is going to do, just down that road. will they keep that position or will they fall back? everybody here hopes that the camp will soon clear out and that this standoff will not continue. chris? >> well, thank you, cal perry, up in frozen north dakota. up next, the trump effect. europe's feeling it after two hotly contested elections over there this weekend. that's ahead. of course, and don't forget, i'll have a full hour of "hardball" coming up at the top of the hour. fresher. more flavorful. delicious. only one egg with better nutrition- like more vitamins

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in europe this week, you could call it a trump test. two hotly contested elections in two different countries, pinning populists like trump against the establishment there. bill neely joins us now from vienna. bill, thank you. i'm thinking of bread and chocolate, vienna, and italy here. interesting duo this weekend. >> reporter: absolutely extraordinary 24 hours, chris. this is definitely a period of extreme political change and extreme instability in europe. call it the trump effect, call it post-brexit. a populist wave, whatever. but, you know, today, in austria, very narrowly, a far right candidate from a party funded by nazis in the 1950s, got 46% of the vote. here in austria, okay, he was beaten by an independent candidate. he will not become the first far right candidate to be a head of state in europe since world war ii, but he came pretty close.

chris, in the last 24 hours, europe has lost two prime ministers in italy. mateo renzi, the young guy age 39, he became prime minister 2 1/2 years ago. he said he would kick-start europe's economy, well, he was just kicked out of office. he lost a referendum he gambled, he lost. and for this afternoon, for entirely different reasons, france's prime minister, manuel val valls, he quit to run to be the president of chance. he's got a chance, because hollande francois has a popularity rating of 4%. these are very unsettling times for the european establishment. >> let me ask you about vienna. of course, the anshluts, are

people openly saying they want something like the third reich? did they sort of say that or is it smothered under other kinds of rhetoric? >> no. and i think, in a sense, chris, something of the opposite happens. so this election has happened twice this year. it was run in may, but there were irregularities and the independent candidate, ex-green party leader won by just 31,000 votes. it was a re-run. and i think that gave austrians a bit of a scare. they thought, do we really want norbert hofer, the far-right candidate, to have a chance of representing this country? brexit then happened. then donald trump was elected. then a lot of austrians took fright and said, no, we're not that kind of country. we're going to go for the more moderate candidate. and so alexander van der bellen was elected. but as one austrian said to me

today, if you'd told me in the spring that a leader in his 70s who was a failed green party leader would now be the president of the austria, i would have told you that you were joking. but isn't that, chris, the story of 2016? i saw a photograph today of the g-5 meeting in germany, in hannover in april. there were five leaders there. barack obama, well, he's going. francois hollande, approval rate of 4%. he's not standing for president. david cameron, gone. matteo renzi, about to go. the only one standing is angela merkel and she is looking now like a very lonely leader in europe. she said today she was very sad about the italian result, but that europe was on the right track. i would say many of the 500 million voters in europe would say angela merkel, you're wrong, europe is on the wrong track. this is a period, as i said at the beginning, chris, extraordinary instability here. >> yeah, it's so much like the

issue we saw back in 1968, where everything in france and the united states, everything went wild politically. another year of synchronized change. this year of 2016, where everything seems to be happening at the same time. bill neely, great reporting from vienna. nbc's ali velshi is over there now. give us a sense, especially what happened in italy. this guy was a promising young star. >> absolutely. >> like a justin trudeau, if you will. >> that's right. >> and now he's out. >> he was trying to reform things. one of the problems is, italy has a bicameral parliamentary system, two houses of parliament, they have far more representatives per italian than most places. he was trying to reform that. he had these two houses that basically duplicate each other's work. he was trug to reduce the number of representatives, reduce the power of the two houses. but in the climate that you guys were just discussing, people

didn't want to consolidate more power in the hands of the central government. and as a result, they soundly defeated his proposals. so italy has had dozens of governments since the war. it is really, really hard in italy to get things done. he had put frard this proposal to say, here is what i ran on, here is a proposal to clean up how government runs. but in the end, very much like brexit, the vote may have had less to do with his specific proposals and more to do with sending a signal to the center that people are just frustrated. this is a global phenomenon that you were just discussing. it's across america, across europe, it's not dissimilar to the phenomenon that the arab spring was based on. the idea that governments don't represent us doesn't matter what you're trying to do. >> boy, it's amazing to watch. i guess we're getting globalized in our politics. thank you very much, ali velshi. all week long, we'll be taking a look back at some of my key moments in my interviews over the years with donald trump and

talking to some of the people who know him and what he thinks. when we come back, what trump told me 17 years ago what it would be like if he were actually to run for president. we're joined by trump's co-writer from "the art of the deal" to tell us what trump's thinking all these years. back after this. s acid and only gaviscon helps keep acid down for hours. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief, try doctor-recommended gaviscon. inature's bounty hair, skin and nails challenge to help with lustrous hair, vibrant skin and healthy nails. so in 30 days, my future self will thank me. thank you. wait, i become a model?!? no. whose cellphone is that? sorry. sorry. sorry about that vent blowing your hair. start the hair, skin & nails challenge today and notice a difference or your money back. nature's bounty. sathis holiday season,or christmas.

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you, as we all understand you, chris. >> welcome back, that was donald trump telling me on "hardball" back in 2004 that reality television reveals all about a person. well, we can argue that one. but after 40 years in the public eye, trump still confounds even his most astute observers. this week, we're taking a look back at vintage trump, if you will, reviewing past interviews, to spotlight revealing moments about the man who's about to assume the most powerful office in the world. let's face it, it's happening. in nearly all of his interviews, trump played coy about his future ambitions. but when he was asked in 1995 about where he saw himself in the next five years, trump's answer turned into a candid and unsolicited contemplation on the prospect of nuclear war. >> in five years from now, who knows? i mean, maybe the bombs drop from heaven. you know, this is a sick world. we're dealing here with lots of sickos. and you have the nuclear and you have the this and you have the that. >> you worry about that?

>> oh, absolutely. i think it's sick human nature. i mean, if hitler had the bomb, you don't think he would have used it? he would have put it right in the middle of fifth avenue. he would have used trufr tower, 52nd and 6th. boom. and you have people who are sick and they are now having nuclear arsenals. i think it's one of the greatest problems of the world. it's always tough to say. i like to live -- i like to project for the future, but really live very much for the present. and i like to learn from the past, but it's very, very fragile. life is so fragile. >> i'm joined right now by the co-author of trump's best-selling book, "the art of the deal." tony schwartz. so interpret all of that. life is fragile. it certainly is. that's a fact. i'm about his age. we did grow up with the prospect of a nuclear war. you too. it was very much in our minds growing up. it's not like he was being weird there. but he did bring it up out of nowhere. what do you make of that? >> well, what i think is the chilling thing about watching

that is my experience with trump is that when he talks about somebody else or about something else, it's usually more about himself. so when he talks about a sick world and about, you know, evil and what hitler would have done, i don't want to overstate that, but it's hard not to, i worry that he is one of the people he's talking about. and that is something i've been worried about since day one, when he announced he was going to run for president. >> well, he's named his general has the nickname "mad dog." what do you think of that? that's an interesting nickname for a guy controlling military power. mad dog. >> it's interesting that these chosen largely billionaires and older billionaires and military men. he likes really the external vestiges of power. he likes to appear that -- he likes to be engaged with people who he thinks are powerful.

so, that obviously supersedes the idea in my mind of people who are ideally suited for the roles, not to say that some of those choices he's made haven't surprised me. there are, including this guy, mad dog, people who he certainly seems to be someone who is exceptionally knowledgeable about the military and, so, you know, i -- not never case, has he chosen someone who is true to form. >> well, when it comes to foreign policy overall, we've seen mr. trump take some unconditional positions, like he talks about seizing the oil resources of iraq. ic like you can do just do that back in 1987, trump a advocated the same policy towards iran. >> iran has taken advantage of this country for years. iran is in big trouble in terms of the military. the next time they fire so much

as a bullet at our ships, we should go in and take their oil. some people say, that might start a war. we'll have a war through weakness. you take over the oil, them have the rest of their country. we just want the oil. >> does he have a sort of a new yorker accent and a regular accent. have you noticed how more neighborhood ethnic his voice sounds back then. did he broaden it to the national accent to run for president. he talks different than he does now. >> he's been out there talking a lot and maybe the accent has, you know, changed slightly. the man has not changed. and that's what's really important. and we need to be incredibly vigilant. those of us who believe that he is a very dangerous, a very unpredictable person, quite honestly, at this point, since he's about to become president, i go have these kinds of conversations with folks like you, with a great deal of ambivalence. my family doesn't want me to do

this anymore. >> why not? >> because it's dangerous or it's potentially dangerous -- >> from him? you respect retribution for what you say? >> i've said a lot of tough things and donald trump is a vengeful man. and i -- you know, i don't want to -- i don't want to assume that -- and i don't feel any personal fear, but i am aware that, um, his enemies have been the source of his attacks for a long time. and i can't imagine he doesn't see me as one. having said that, you know, i think it's incredibly important for those people who recognize who donald trump is, over the last 40 years, continue to speak up. i think the idea of a free press, the idea of a true democracy, these are things that are at risk right now. and if we don't speak up, if we don't hold him accountable to living by what is the rule of law and the constitution and all

of those things that have made us who we are, at our best, then we're at greater risk that he will make choices that will be bad for everyone around the world. >> well, he has said he will increase defense spending, if he gets to be president, he's going to be president. in fact, back in 1999, he told me he wanted to pick up where ronald reagan left off, build a missile shield to protect this country from attack. here he goes. >> i believe in something actually ronald reagan believed in and that's missile defense. they called it star wars. you want a total shield or defense? >> i want a shield. you'll have some madmen -- >> how do you defend against cruises? >> i believe you can have a shield that -- you know what, if it works 100%, 90%, or 80%, that's better than not having a shield at all, believe me. >> what do you make of that? >> this is a very oversimplified

view of the world. i think donald trump sees the world in black and white, good and bad, toughness and weakness. and the world that we live in, as we have seen in such rich ways over the last even several weeks is a very complex place. and i think the highest prayer we can have is that there are people who see the world with more complexity than trump. i was actually the most hopeful thing i've heard since trump virtually began running, but certainly since he's been elected president is that he had a meeting with al gore today. and that ivanka trump, apparently, set up that meeting to talk about climate change. that's a level of -- that's an investment of a few moments of time or an hour of time that i never would have expected him to make and i'm very, very happy that he did. and it's a positive sign about ivanka trump that she would make it happen. >> well, let's take a look at this. while his route to the presidency was unorthodox, trump told me back in '99 and again, that ideally he would rather not have to campaign for the job,

just get it. let's watch. >> i would not run any under circumstance if i didn't think i could win the whole thing. >> let's talk about that. give me a scenario, as we say in the movies, of a perfect donald trump run for president, all the way to november next year. >> i think a perfect run would be, i do no campaigning, i run only on election day, i get at least 51% in a three-way race -- >> as we say in economist, a second-best solution. >> a second-best? >> i think i would have to run very hard. i would have to work very hard, i would have to be doing shows like this all the time and much more. and i think i could do it. >> you know, tony, you know more than i do about this guy, but back in 1999, my nephew sent it to me the other day, a clip from "the philadelphia inquirer" where i said, trump is a presidential president. it's not bragging, just for some reason i was thinking of it. and before "apprentice" or any of this, before the birtherism,

just when he was a big-shot business guy, a celebrity. do you think he's been thinking about this a long time? i think he had it in his head when he was talking right there. >> and even before that. i think this has been something he's been flirting with since shortly after actually "the art of the deal" was published, so that's 30 years. but i don't think he thought about it, even when he announced for president, as something that would actually happen. indeed, i don't think he thought that at 5:00 on election night. i think he actually expected to lose, just like the rest of us expected him to lose. so he's landed in a place he didn't expect. i think he ran for this office overwhelmingly because he has a deep, deep need for attention and what better way to get attention than to run for president of the united states. and this has -- he has fallen into an historical moment that obviously isn't limited just to him. we're seeing it all over the world. there is a world view that feels -- a group of people who have a world view that is deeply, feels deeply threatened,

and those folks are rising up, with a ferocity that nobody could have anticipated. for a whole series of reasons that, you know, that we're not going to talk about in detail tonight. but i think trump finds himself in this office with a wide-eyed amazement that it could have happened. even though he always would have liked it to happen. >> one-word answer, like him or not? personally? >> i can't say -- i can't give you a one-word answer. i can't separate that from the fact that i have such deep objections to what he's going to do. if i went back to 1987 and i were dead honest, i would say, i was fine around him. i found him perfectly okay to be around. today, who cares whether i like him or not. what he's out to do is not something i'm supportive of. >> that's a good answer, tony. you're a good citizen. that's the citizen's answer. >> by the way, you looked a lot

younger back then and it was fun to see you. >> okay. we'll have more vintage moments the from my interviews over the -- >> it was 17 years ago! give me a break ago! -- with donald trump throughout this week. and we'll get the latest from ohio and nevada, when we return. ♪ (toilet flush)

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we're back and we're just 46 days from president-elect donald trump becoming president. and here in d.c., the district of columbia, there's a lot of talk about who will fill which cabinet post. but what's happening outside d.c. in the heartland and what the ripple effect of trump's election is, we've got to find out. i'm joined by henry gomez and our friend john ralston, and new friend, enrique, editor of "the nevada expects? pinpoi i want to start with henry.

john kasich had a lot of friends around here, including me. he bought the ticket that said no trump, so what's going to happen? he bought the wrong ticket? >> he's term limited, but he's finding himself deep in a challenge of the republican party. his hand-picked chairman is very lukewarm towards trump. he ended up supporting trump, but he would publicly criticize trump whenever he said something he deemed offensive. all of this rubbed trump republicans the wrong way. and of course, trump won. so now there's thoughts that they would like to install some of their own allies into that position as leader of the ohio republican party. a woman name ed jane timpken ha announced she's going to take on boernlgs because the meeting in january. >> but who's going to win? >> borges is confident.

kasich put out a statement that he believes he has the votes. but the statement shows that kasich is going to use his political capital. he is going to use his bully pulpit and still very much cares who's going to control the ohio republican party coming forward. >> he's got a couple more years as governor. thank you so much, henry gomez of the cleveland dealer. let's go to john ralston, our buddy from vegas. so what is going on out there? >> well, there's a lot of fear out here among some of the hispanic groups, chris. you recently had an incident where an instructor at unlv here put out on facebook that he was ready to turn in any students that he believed were undocumented to immigrant authorities. that created a huge firestorm here. both universities here had their presidents send out letters to the campus, trying to calm fears. before that even happened, he has since apologized, said it was a joke, but of course, who makes that kind of joke on

facebook? you've had press conferences, you've had letters all written. there's an uproar here. you know, the hispanic population here, as you well know, chris, is burgeoning. it's more than a quarter of the population now. trump was destroyed in the hispanic vote here. and so, this is a real issue. there's a lot of fear in this community about what's going to happen with deportation. >> thank you, very much. john ralston from las vegas, merry christmas to you, sir. and that does it for this hour, but stay tuned for "hardball," which is coming up now. we've got a full hour of politics, especially this bizarre jamboree of prospects for secretary of state, a list that grows to trump's pleasure, i guess. you heard the headlines, by the way, now we'll get the opinions of the news and big guests coming up, including former white house chief of staff, andy kard. keep it here for "hardball," next. needed to do to get an estimate was snap a photo of the damage and voila! voila! (sigh) i wish my insurance company had that...

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a tower of treasures. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. well, the visitor's list to trump tower at fifth avenue in new york has become a who's who or who was list of american ambition. those who said the worst about trump are showing up hat in hand, hoping to get some of that golden patronage the man's got to pass around. the top prize, of course, remains secretary of state. the search to