trump, but hugging him in hopes of picking up republican votes. my, how things have changed in just over a month. that's all we have for tonight. we'll be back tomorrow with a lot more "mtp daily," but chris matthews picks up our coverage right now. >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington if and we start with breaking news. next hour, donald trump will hold a rally in fayetteville, north carolina, the second stop on his "thank you" tour. he's bringing along his pick for defense secretary, retired four-star general, james "mad dog" mattis. a short time ago trump tweeted this picture showing him standing with mattis on the plane headed to north carolina. mattis is expected to take the stage tonight and speak at the event. let's go right now to nbc's chris jansing who is already in fayetteville. >> reporter: we're expecting to hear about a strong military today.

that will be the message from donald trump, and from mattis, as well, who we're told is going to speak before we hear from the president-elect. this is his second stop upon what has been a thank you tour. and he has come to the heart of military country, ft. bragg, of course, is here. the largest military base in the world. 53,000 plus. then you see he'll be going on to iowa and des moines and grand rapids, michigan, on thursday and friday. you might think that given the topic of national security and mattis being here, who, by the way, is very popular with most of the military i've talked to and even some democrats i've talked to here in fayetteville, you might think it would be a more sober event, but if cincinnati, his first stop on this tour was any indication, it's not going to be anything like that. you'll remember he jabbed governor kasich there. he the bragged about bringing more jobs in, saving the jobs of carrier. i would expect today he's going to talk about his meeting with the japanese ceo, who has promised to bring in $50 billion in investment, although it's not clear how much of that would

have already come. and smaller than expected crowd here. i think, so far, you know, when he was in cincinnati, the same thing happened. and he said it was part of being president, that roads have been shut down and people couldn't get to him. we have our folks checking with local police to see if there's any backups, to see if there's a problem with people getting here, but, when we were here earlier, before they opened the doors, there are only a few hundred people waiting for this second stop on this thank you tour, chris. >> chris, how's the audience? are they nasty still, happy, exuberant, are they mad at us? how would you read the crowds in terms of personal reactions with you? >> reporter: when you say, "mad at us" meaning the media, i would say, 100%. and as they were waiting -- and it was ant very pleasant day out there, but a couple hundred of people were waiting by 4:00 when the doors opened, chris. and at least on that few occasions, they started shouting, as they did in cincinnati, "lock her up, lock her up," which, of course, is a reference to hillary clinton.

and i talked to the state republican chair here and asked him if that was appropriate and he really didn't answer the question. and these are the true, tried and true, trump supporters. one of the couples i talked to have been to six events. another guy said he kept skipping work. he had been to 41 different trump events. they still believe that there is a way that the president-elect is going to find a way to go after hillary clinton. and they don't want to hear anything else. i don't want to paint everybody here with a broad brush, but certainly the people who were waiting in line early, some of them for 12 hours before this event, i wouldn't be surprised if that shouting started again, chris. >> very interesting. thank you so much, chris jansing, in fayetteville, north carolina. well, before flying to north carolina today, the president-elect held meetings in trump tower, in new york, and trump also made news today, criticizing the government's contract with boeing, for a new air force one. nbc's kristen welker is at trump tower. kristen, thank you. tennis the unusual, he brings --

keeps jobs here with carrier, brings $50 billion of japanese money to the country, and he complains about overruns and about overcosts and gold plating and the kinds of things that do drive people crazy. >> reporter: well, that's right. this is president-elect donald trump, i think, trying to show that he can put the art of the deal into practice. the question is, why today, why now. the trump transition team, not responding to questions about the timing, yet. but, chris, we do know that the president-elect's tweet, saying that he might potentially yank the deal with boeing, for new air force one's aircraft came after the ceo of boeing wrote an op-ed in the "chicago tribune," essentially calling on the president-elect to tone down his rhetoric, when it comes to anti-trade statements. essentially expressing his concerns about a potential trade deal, and that that could hurt his business. so was the president-elect trying to show the ceo that he can be tough? let's talk about what he actually said.

he said that that price tag on the new boeing air force one planes was too high. he put it at 4:00 billion. that's not exactly confirmed. we know that the cost of r&d, research and development, is going to be about $2.7 billion, chris. that doesn't include the price to build the planes. but the reason why the order went in in 2015 for two new air force one aircrafts is because these planes have a life span of about 30 years, and so far, these planes are 20 years old! so the white house today saying, look, this is a matter of the president's safety and national security, therefore, these planes have to withstand a nuclear blast. this is not your typical plane, so they're expensive to build. the question, though, chris, what happens next? what specifically is the president-elect going to do? is this an opening bid, starting a bargaining with boeing? boeing, for its part, responding saying, they are looking forward to making this work, so that was their very measured response, to some very sharp words from the president-elect today, chris. >> well, let's listen to what

donald trump said this morning, when he was talking about the government order with boeing. let's listen. >> well, the plane is totally out of control. it's going to be over $4 billion. it's for air force one program. and i think it's ridiculous. >> well, take care of yourself up there in the rain. as i say every night, don't step backwards out there into that traffic. great reporting, as always. >> reporter: i won't, chris. thank you. thank you. >> anyway, vice president joe biden flirted once again today with the idea of running for president come 2020. he first talked about it yesterday, of course, sparking questions about just how serious he is. well, today's nbc's kelly o'donnell followed up with him, as she should. let's watch. >> mr. vice president, are we right to take you seriously about 2020? >> i'm not going to announce right now. >> well, kelly o'donnell is with us right now with the follow-up. i don't know if we're ever going

to get the complete follow up. he doesn't want to seem to give up on the idea of some time in his life being president. >> reporter: and i also think it's a more short-term goal. and that is, to remain relevant and sought-after as one face, a prominent face of the democratic party, at a time when we can expect president barack obama, post-presidency, to shift into that different league of former presidents. but joe biden might be freer to be a fighter for the party against donald trump. and i think, from talking to senior elected democrats today, asking them about their take on this, three of them in leadership said to me they are glad that he is keeping the door open. they think he is a valuable voice, especially because of the middle class joe persona that he has made so much a part of his political life. and so today, the most we could get, chris, in following up, i must have asked him a half dozen times, variations of the question, is that he wants to help the party, wants to help

return the senate to democratic hands, and that in terms of a decision on 2020, it is too soon for him to make that decision. but he, as we heard from him last night and again today, is not closing that door. it, of course, made joe biden a story in the last 24 hours. it will make him someone to watch in the time to come, and there will need to be a counterpunch to donald trump and his administration from the democratic side. it could be the next dnc chair. it could be senator schumer, the top democrat here, but there might be a lane for joe biden to play that kind of role. >> i think you're right. by the way, you know, everybody out there says, if only. i mean, the bernie people, you bump into them, they say, if only bernie had ran. and it's impossible to say, because we don't know what the dynamic would be if joe biden, somewhat of a centrist democrat, had run as the democratic nominee or somebody from the further left, like senator sanders had run. we have no idea. all we know is the candidate who did run did well in the popular vote, very well, in fact, up to

standards with the polling, but because of the vagaries of the electoral college, didn't get elected president. it's a great guessing game, for sure. >> and there's such a counterweight when you have two terms of barack obama, so there's two terms of the democratic party, so difficult to get a third term when you're talking about the white house. now it will belong to republicans for four years. and so that really does open it up again to democrats, to judge the presidency of donald trump, to field a candidate to run against him, and that really opens a lane. they may be able to learn some lessons from this election cycle. you could argue that a democratic from the younger party would be exciting. and if joe biden doesn't decide to run over the next months and couple of years, he could be that voice. and i think that's very attractive to him. and that was reinforced to me when i talked to senior elected official who is want him in that space. >> great to hear from you. a lot of reporting there. thank you so much from capitol hill, kelly o'donnell. now to president obama, who

today defended his counterterrorism record a short while ago, by the way, in tampa, florida. take a look at his remarks on muslim americans. >> we are fighting terrorists who claim to fight on behalf of islam. but they do not speak for over a billion muslims around the world. if we stigmatize good patriotic muslims, that just feeds the terrorist narrative. >> that's for sure. joining me right now is nbc pentagon correspondent, hans nichols. that was a ringing sort of last punch before the bell for the president. here's where i stand. we're not anti-muslim, we're strong. >> i'm glad you described it that way. it did come in the last part of his speech, chris, where up to that point, he'd been largely sort of playing it down the middle. president obama's challenge in this speech was always how to criticize gently trump without boxing him in. and i think you heard that a little bit there towards the end, he seemed to have a stronger rebuke, talking about our values, talking about what it means and not to actually

govern from fear. chris? >> do you -- i thought you had a bite here. anyway, let me ask you about this guantanamo issue. i mean, that's another -- talking about last punch of the bell. that's something that's sort of staggered him over the years, because nimby has been problem for him, not in my backyard. nobody wants this super prison, any super prison to hold these terrorists and suspected terrorists. so where's that stand? the answer to that? >> well, yeah, so he kind of ran through the challenges and did the numbers. the numbers are 262 down to 59. he has transferred 175 detainees. but as to his broader failure to actually close, which was, we were, a campaign promise, he blamed that blame squarely at congress. >> yeah, they don't want them in their district. look, we're looking at pictures of this place. let's go with the sound. let's take a look at what he had to say here. >> politics of fear has led

congress to prevent any detainees from being transferred to prisons in the united states. even though, as we speak, we imprison dangerous terrorists in our prisons and we have even more dangerous criminals in all of our prisons across the country. >> you know, hans, it sounds like people in congress have this notion of, we're going to put terrorists and suspected terrorists in their backyard, and let them sort of wander around like a low security place. when you get to play tennis and lift barbells and take a walk now and then. when, in fact, we're talking about putting them in these deep holes, basically. you're not going to get out of one of these prisons. >> look, i've never been to a supermax prison. i hope you if you pay your taxes on time never make it inside a supermax, either. but these are very secure facilities. this is the sort of nuanced intellectual debate i think gets lost a lot of times when you're talking about, as the president said, the politics of fear. and he was very explicit today in saying that he wanted to have a rational conversation. you know, so much throughout

this speech, with the exception of that rebuke, towards the end, it almost seemed like a legal brief. he was enumerating points on how he wants to hand off a counterterrorism policy the to his successor. again, the challenge is how to gently criticize trump without boxing him in. and we'll see if there's any reaction from trump when he speaks later in north carolina on whether or not he took offense at any of president obama's comments. >> well, with one thing we have is a gentleman as president. we may not have one for long, but we have one now. thank you so much, hans nichols from down in tampa, florida. when we come back, other thn headlines from around the country, including the latest on that terrorist threat on the subway out in st. louis. and "hardball" is coming up with the next stop on donald trump's thank you tour. we're going to be featuring that tonight, somewhat. and back after. this ♪ gaviscon is a proven heartburn remedy that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief. it immediately neutralizes acid and only gaviscon helps keep acid down for hours. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief,

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. thank you. nbc's steve patterson joins us

right now in oakland. steve, tell us about this factory shed. how would we describe this place that burn up? >> it's been described in many ways. it's called the ghost ship. it's a maze-like labyrinth on that first floor, a network of various sort of lofts and work spaces. and then above, there's that second floor, where the dance floor was at the time this fire broke out. right now, 36 dead. that did not change overnight. that is consistent with what we saw yesterday. they're now 90% through the building. so at this point, chris, they do not expect to find anymore bodies in the rubble. meanwhile, 26 families have been notified their loved ones have died in that fire. there have been ten additional notifications, and now the investigation is taking full -- is now full-throated as we move forward, chris. >> so it's an actual legal space that somebody had legal responsibilities for, and they rented out space to people, what, to sort of -- kind of a place to sleep, a place to keep

your artwork going? also for parties? it's an unusual space. >> reporter: well, it's -- it's an incredibly unusual space. the guy who was renting it out to people, who were living there, he spoke to matt and tamron this morning about kind of his work in doing this, many bringing artists in to this community that they've kind of formed, kind of a bohemian community, in these warehouses, not so rare in this bay area, when you factor in that the cost of living is so astronomical out here, a lot of people who don't make six figuring frankly don't have a choice. but he did not have a permit to rent this space out and he didn't have a permit to use it as an event space. so he's covering the costs, because he's leasing it from the owner for $5,000 a month. that's how he's able to stay above board. >> let's take a listen to what he said. here we go. >> i didn't do anything ever, in my life, that would lead me up

to this moment. >> can i ask you if -- >> i'm an honorable man. i'm a proud man. no, i'm not going to answer these questions! i would rather get on the floor and be trampled by the parents! i would rather let them tear my flesh than answer these ridiculous question! >> mr. almena -- >> i'm so sorry. i'm incredibly sorry. i don't know what you want me to say. i'm not going to answer these questions -- >> then we'll call this -- >> i'm just going to say i'm sorry. >> how did the people get trapped? how did the horror commence? was the fire old wood? what led to the fire being such a rapid buildup? >> reporter: well, there's so much flammable material inside there. the staircase was a makeshift staircase made out of pallets. there's only a few exits in there. two exits. a lot of people were on that second floor, so they were trapped up there. they have isolated where they

believed the fire had started to that back wall. so what they think happens is the fire starts in the first floor, spreads to the second floor, and it's in the roof, and the roof collapses on the people that are inside there, but i spoke to somebody with the sheriff's department this morning, who said that basically, you take two inhalations of air that is so ultra-heated inside there, and probably everybody passed out well before they even knew what was happening. so most of the people probably died in there from smoke inhalation. they're trying to determine what caused the fire. there's a lot of rumors going on that it was an electrical problem. there were a lot of loose ends in that warehouse, a lot of makeshift materials that obviously could have caught fire very rapidly. >> god, it's horrible. thank you so much for the great reporting, steve patterson out of oakland, california. new to that terror threat in los angeles. authorities on alert right now, this rush hour, in the country's second largest city after the warning of an imminent terror attack, that threat targeting the city's metro system itself.

pete williams has been covering this story for nbc news. pete? >> well, this is a situation where it's one of those better safe than sorry moments of caution kind of thing. what we now know is that the tip came from a caller in australia, at a pay phone, to a police tip line in australia yesterday. that word was then passed to the fbi, and the fbi told the los angeles officials about it. and they decided that even though there was no way to assess the credibility, they would go ahead and do something here because of the short time frame. they really didn't have time to scrub this and look at it, but because it was yesterday and the time was specific, about a place and a date today, they would take these additional steps and shore up security. but it turns out that that actual pay phone had been used before to make hoax calls to that tip line. that actual pay phone had been used to make hoax calls. nonetheless the los angeles authorities decided, better safe

than sorry, we're going to step up security. people who were at that university cities stop, which was the one that the caller mentioned, had their bags and purses and backpacks searched today. and this may last for another couple of days. uniformed people, undercover people there as well, all as the city says, out of an abundance of caution. >> and now america knows that los angeles has a subway. that's news to a lot of -- a little comic note here for a tragic story, potentially. but it is news. it looks very state of the art. >> it is. it seems to work. and several thousand people a day use that specific tunnel. >> 150,000 from the valley. -- >> on those two lines. the red line and the purple line. >> yeah, we're learning a lot about the transportation needs of the city of los angeles. anyway, i hope everything goes away. and i love the fact that you let us know that this came from a line that had been used before for hoax calls. >> yeah, an actual phone. the phone itself. >> even the existence of a pay phone is becoming almost -- >> that, too, yeah. >> we're learning al.

so on the periphery of this, what could have been a bad story for us all. thank you, nbc -- thank you, nbc's steve williams. >> you're very welcome. finally, to the story of fake news. what's being called pizzagate proves that fake stories can go viral. and there's a debate about how much these stories could have affected the election. nbc's jacob soboroff spoke with the creator of a wildly shared fake news story that went viral in the lead up to the election. jacob, we're learning more. by the way, just to get everybody straight about this, this pizza joint is right down the street here. it's only about a half a mile away from here. it is a very nice, a very low-key, unfancy, family restaurant. >> no, it's a -- you know, thin pizza, the big, square kind. you have a diet coke and you're in heaven there. they have ice cream, too. it's for kids. teenagers, everybody. >> i heard it's a lovely place. and that's what's so tragic about this, chris, in all seriousness, that this very fake news is having some very

real-life consequences. there's a guy here in southern california who was behind a really widely shared fake news article that came out in the days before election about totally fake murder/suicide of an fbi agent connected purportedly to the hillary clinton e-mail leaks that was shared 500,000 times. put that in perspective, that's more than any story i've ever created for msnbc, being shared online. it was one of the most widely shared stories of real or fake news in the lead up to the election. this guy's got a wife, a family, a couple of young kids and lives a pretty suburban life in the l.a. area. here's what i found out when i went and visited him, chris. so here's national report. it looks like the website of my former employer, "the huffington post". >> that was intentional. >> like, what's the most controversial, sort of biggest story for you guys? >> we did a series of stories on ebola, where several residents in the small town of texas had contracted ebola. they probably got about 6 million page views. >> 6 million.

that's huge. you must get a kick out of that. >> it's very addictive. >> do you feel like you've stopped cold turkey? how you feeling these days? >> i do. and i'm good with that. i think that it's kind of disappointing that it took president trump for actual news outlets to kind of focus on this sort of phenomenon. >> you say disappointing. did you vote? >> of course. >> who'd you vote for? >> hillary. >> talk me through. fbi agents suspected in hillary e-mail leaks found dead in apparent murder/suicide. >> the motive behind the killing is still being investigated, but police say that brown was a highly respected agent with the fbi and very well liked in the community. >> is any of that true? >> not a single thing. >> not a single thing. >> totally fiction. >> three days before the election, half a million people saw this post. two days before the election, over half a million people read an article about an fbi agent that killed his wife and himself because of pressure from the clintons. how much money did this post make you? >> likely somewhere around about $8,000. >> 8,000 bucks?

>> most of that, again, goes to the writer. >> 8,000 bucks, in your mind, is it worth it if 1.6 million people ultimately saw this and believed hillary clinton was involved in the murder/suicide of an fbi agent? >> this is one that i would probably take back. so, you know, and even to kind of add to that, google closed all the accounts that were running on the site, so even that money is gone. >> do you feel like the work that you did from this computer affected the results of the election in any way? >> i do not. it's something that, again, i'm glad you guys are here now talking about it, but you should have been talking about it years ago. >> so it's our fault? >> we should have been talking about it years ago. >> it's our fault! >> he says he regrets it. he says he's not going to do it again. but, you know, as we saw, your local pizet pizzeria already ha real-life consequences. >> that guy comes in with an

ar-15 and shoots, who knows how it could have come out differently. i was there last night and it was closed. they're going to stop the place for a little while. how does a guy like that, does he know the word "lie." lying and being a liar, does that mean anything to him? >> that's a great -- he talks about it almost -- not almost, exactly as an addict would talk about taking drugs. he told me it felt addictive. when he would see people clicking on his site, 1.6 million people for that article, it made him want to continue to do it. he said he had gotten out of the fake news game, but when he saw how much attention it was getting, like that one article got him $8,000. there's something compulsive about it, the behavior that leads to creating stuff like this. and again, he doesn't think that anything is his fault. he points to the mainstream media saying, people don't believe the mainstream media, so they're turning to people like him. >> i think there's a word for that. i think it's sociopath.

anyway, i think that the best jobs in our business are those of editors. when the phone call comes in, when the story comes in and you have to say, no, i don't believe it, i don't know who that reporter is, i don't know that organization, and you say no. a murder/suicide, i know it's juicy, but we're not going to run it because we don't think it's true. that's the difference to me between blogging and journalism. because you don't know about an editor. someone who says, i'm a grown-up, no, we're not putting that on the air. jacob, you've got guts. to face that guy and talk to him like he's an actual regular person. like he's selling newspapers on the corner. that's not what he's doing, he's selling lies. jacob soboroff, you're something. thanks for coming on. up next, how serious is trump's threat against boeing. and why is the stock market hitting -- god, it's almost up to 20,000. what's going on? and i'll have a full hour of "hardball" coming up at the top of the hour at 7:00 eastern.

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well, the plane is totally out of control. it's going to be for over $4 billion for air force one program. and i think it's ridiculous. i think boeing is doing a little bit of a number. we want boeing to make a lot of money, but not that much money. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was donald trump earlier today at trump tower, taking issue with the cost of a defense department contract with boeing to build the future presidential airplanes. well, earlier today, he wrote, "boeing is building a brand-new 747 air force one for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion. cancel order!" well, how serious is trump's threat to boeing? msnbc's ali velshi joins me now. ali, you've got a potpourri of stories tonight, we're counting on you. the boeing, is there some -- i think boeing -- i thought it had a monopoly on these big planes

in the united states, unless you go to a foreign source. how does he threaten them? >> generally speaking, the american president drives an american car and flies an american plane. there are lots of airplane manufacturers. boeing's biggest exert is airbus. air force one doesn't cost $4 billion. it doesn't cost anywhere close. a fully outfitted air force one, which is a very complicated plane, not just a plane. most of the electronics and the security stuff is what costs the money, about $1.7, $1.8 billion. they build two of them at a time. so donald trump saying it's $4 billion was in typical fashion something of an exaggeration. it may have been triggered by a speech given by the ceo of boeing last week, in which he rightfully voiced some concern that if donald trump gets into a trade war, particularly with china, boeing is likely to suffer from that, which is a fact. because boeing and airbus sell most of the commercial airplanes in the world. this may be donald trump taking a swipe at the ceo of boeing, as

much as about the program, because generally speaking, for most of donald trump's presidency, he'll be flying on the old air force one, which is towards the end of its service life. >> what do you think caused the hubris on the stock markets coming a couple days after the election? >> when you look at it, there are a lot of stocks that actually haven't gone up at all. some are down since the election, which means those that are up are so way up, it almost defies belief. take a look at banking stocks. the idea that donald trump comes in, gets rid of dodd/frank, gets rid of regulation so banks can do whatever they want has caused people to invest in these stocks to a level that some people say is concerning. the dow hit another record. the fact is, it doesn't matter if you take off all regulation. stocks with only be priced so high. there are some people thinking this is a little bit frothy right now. the game for the year is pretty strong. but there are some stocks, particularly health care stocks, uncertainty about the affordable care act, obamacare, it means they're not performing very well. so when you think at how high the stock market is, it's some

stocks that are doing really, really very well, and one might be careful about that. >> let me ask you for a date. at what date in history, if it ever comes, will republicans thank president obama for tripling their wealth? >> ah, lowering unemployment dramatically, but, yes, the stock market. and that's got to do with both the president's policies and the federal reserve keeping interest rates as low as they have, because when your interest rates are so low, the only game in town isn't bonds, it ends up being stocks. as we see interest rates rise, which we might see as early as next week, you might start to see that come down. so in hindsight, you will start to look at the obama presidency as probably the single best eight years for the stock market in a century. >> yeah, i was thinking it was around 6 or 7 in the spring of '09. you never here a republican or a conservative say, good work. >> yeah. >> you never hear --

>> the stock market has done -- and fortunately, chris, as you know, for those people who didn't have a credit to buy a house and take advantage of low mortgage rates and didn't have extra money to invest in the stock market, the game for them hasn't been there. >> yeah, but, it's always better than -- i used to say, and i think you still should, if you want to live like a republican, vote like a democrat. thank you, ali velshi. up next, our nightly look back at some of the key moments from my interviews over the years with donald trump. i'm calling it vintage trump. it's great to look at this thing for perspective. we're going to go listen to what he said and what it says about how he thinks and how he's going to govern this country. back after this. when you find something worth waiting for, we'll help you invest to protect it for the future.

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we'll replace the full value of your car. liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. mr. trump, what's left in your life. you're 33 years old. you're worth all of this money. you said you didn't say that you want to be worth a billion dollars. >> no, i really don't. i want to keep busy and be active and sb interested in all i do. that's all there is to life as far as i'm concerned. . i'm really not looking to make tremendous amounts of money. i'm looking to enjoy my life. and if that happens to go with it, that's fabulous. >> welcome back, that's ana young entrepreneur back in 1980. as donald trump said, he was never that ambitious to make a lot of money there with tom brokaw. now almost 40 years later, he's set to become the first billionaire to serve as president of the united states. well, in this edition of vintage trump, we're looking at the past interviews to figure out how trump's business savvy might inform or affect his presidency. 12 years ago on "hardball," i asked trump whether he considers

himself akin to the fictional character in the movie "wall street" the infamous gordon gekko played by michael douglas. in my interview, douglas said that trump was an inspiration for the role of gordon gekko. >> i think i'm a nice guy. i have a lot of wonderful relationships and even in business, i have a lot of wonderful relationships. gordon gekko was not big into the world of relationship. >> is greed good? >> no, greed is bad. greed is not good. i do it for fun. i love doing it. i love what i'm doing. the expression that they used in the movie, "greed is good," was an incredible expression. it was great for purposes of a movie, but impegreed is certain not good. >> we're going to get a chance in a couple minutes now, a couple of seconds, to talk to david cay johnston. you know, trump and i -- i've been interviewing this fella, trump, for so many years. it's amazing, you know, back, to know him before he did the stuff

that offends so many people, the charge that president obama was born in some other country and somehow snuck into the presidency. it was a different kettle of fish right now. i'm joined right now by david cay johnston. a daily beast columnist and the author of "the making of donald trump." thank you for that, talk about the evolution, devolution, breakdown, whatever you want to call it, of donald trump from the time he was a showboating business guy, nothing illegal or wrong about that, to this guy that found a way to make himself the tribune of the right. >> well, donald's always been about money, despite that 1980 interview, i guess it was tom brokaw. money has been very important to him. his very first big deal, the building of the grand hyatt in manhattan, he put no money into it. it was all borrowed money. he got welfare worth about $400 million over 40 years from that deal and that's the standard trump deal. put up no money of your own, get

guaranteed money up-front by taking fees or part of the loan proceeds, and then take as much cash out of the enterprise as you can, until you sell it or it weakens and you have to close it down and move on. and with the exception of trump university, where trump put up $1 million to start it, that's pretty much been his standard deal throughout. and then, of course, grossly inflating his claims of how much money he's worth, just has he's inflated the cost estimate for the new air force ones. >> here he is, trump says he's a nicer guy than gordon gekko, but in 1987, after he staged his now-famous comeback from losing all that money, he says he takes the opportunity to get revenge against those who have done him wrong. this could be a sign of things to come. let's watch. >> there were a number of people who i really helped who didn't lift a finger for me when they could have. there was one person with one phone call could have saved me tremendous amounts of problem, refused to make that call.

very easy call to make. refused to make that call. and i had made this person. so when the opportunity presents itself in all cases, i will not be very good to those people. i believe very much in an eye for an eye. and i think a lot of other people do too. and i think foolish people don't. >> well, there's a leading indicator. he believes in an eye for an eye, and he's about to be chief executive of the united states. >> donald have very much driven by revenge and he's made remarks like that in many different forms over along distances of time and space. he talks much more like a mafia boss than what he claims to be, which is a christian. in fact, he has referred to people who follow the teachings of jesus christ as fools and idiots in promoting his idea of revenge. always get even, go out of your way to destroy the lives of other people. and with the powers he will have as president of the united states, that's something extraordinarily worrisome. >> in one of m 2004 interviews with donald trump, he told me he

favored privatizing social security, a hotly debated proposal. of course, president george w. bush ultimately could not get through congress. here's trump on privatizing social security. >> >> if you were president of the united states, would you push individual retirement accounts for social security? >> i sort of think i would. something has to be done. social security is a human problem right now, funding it. >> so where is he? he's not a social democrat like bernie sanders, he doesn't believe in a government involved in all the new entitlement possibilities. he seems to be talking about getting rid of obamacare completely or changing it radically. yet he says, i'm going to keep coverage for people with pre-existing conditions, i'm going to keep coverage for people who have young adult children still relying on them. he's getting it both ways. your thoughts? >> chris, you've hit upon the single most important things that journalists are not understanding about trump. he doesn't have a political philosophy, except for the glorification of the genetically

superior donald trump. paul ryan, i've written very critical pieces about him, but i believe that paul ryan is doing what he thinks is best for the country. donald trump does what's best for donald trump and for his ego. >> his companies, when they faced bankruptcy back in 1990, trump said he was proud that he had started with nothing. that was his phrase, he started with nothing, and that he had just become bored by his career and that's how he got in trouble. he got bored with being rich. let's watch. >> i started out with virtually nothing. i built something that's recognized even today, in negative times, as being immense and potentially extremely valuable. >> did you get smug? >> i think i got smug, and to a certain extent, i hurt the business by not caring enough. i think i made a lot and i made it easily and i made it when i was young and i saw that, you know, people that were in their 70s and 80s hasn't done nearly as well and they've been here a lot longer than i have. and i think that maybe i got

bored. >> david, let's give the guy some credit here. there he was with deborah norville, of course, how did he come back from complete disaster? >> well, the state of new jersey's casino control commission took his side against the bankers and forced the bankers to take a huge haircut. to walk away from more than $900 million that trump owed them. so this was too big to fail for the state of new jersey, and that was the key to trump's success. he got into trouble because he spent wildly. he would reach into his casinos, which were huge cash machines, and suck cash out of them just as fast as he could. and that's been a recurring pattern in his life. take cash out of an enterprise and weaken it. there are still people running profitable casinos in atlantic city, but not donald trump. >> okay. thank you, david cay johnston. all of this is food for thought. thank you, sir. we will have more vintage moments from my interviews

included with donald trump throughout this week. and we'll hear from trump himself in the next hour at his victory rally, his thank you rally, in north carolina. and when we come back, how low can he go? new jersey governor chris christie sets a polling record in the bottom. this guy had a bad year. and that's ahead. well this here's a load-bearing wall. we'll go ahead and rip that out. that'll cause a lot of problems. hmm. totally unnecessary and it triples the budget. we'll be totally behind schedule, right? (laughschedules. schedules. great, okay. wouldn't it be great if everyone said what they meant? the citi® double cash card does. it lets you earn double cash back: 1% when you buy, and 1% as you pay. the citi double cash card. double means double. you may sometimes suffer from a dry mouth. that's why there's biotene. and biotene also comes in a handy spray. so you can moisturize your mouth anytime, anywhere. biotene,

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and provided by unitedhealthcare insurance company, which has over 30 years of experience behind it. with all the good years ahead, look for the experience and commitment to go the distance with you. call now to request your free decision guide. we're back. both president obama and president-elect donald trump both took their message to the road today. barack obama's speech looking back and donald trump's, of course, looking forward. and like them, every day this week, we're getting out of washington to hear from reporters across the country miami joined by john nichols, irvine ran dove, and kathy obronovich, political columnist from the "des moines register." we only have one question for each of you, i'm sorry. why did russ feingold, who we all put on our sure thing list before election night, he was

going to win, illinois and wisconsin, they're in! let's talk about the other races. he didn't win. what happened? >> i think a lot of things happened, but primarily, it was the trump surge. and one of the things that's interesting is that while there was an assumption that feingold would win, there was also an assumption that clinton would win wisconsin. there were clearly a lot of people who were not telling pollsters that they were going to vote for donald trump. and it's interesting that when they came into those polling places, they just voted down that republican list. i think that the key to the whole thing, if there's one core message here, it is that in out-state wisconsin, in the rural areas and particularly areas along the mississippi river, were traditionally russ feingold would run ahead of the democratic ticket, it just didn't happen to the same extent. and so, it's interesting that when you looked at that final figure, hillary clinton was at 46.4% of the vote and russ feingold was at 46.3.

he just didn't get that home state bump. >> okay, thanks so much for that. always great to have you on, john. let's go to irvine grandolph. what's the community thinking about hud. an odd pick for a neurosurgeon. >> it is an odd pick. you would think that carson would be a better pick for someone like surgeon general. or if you're going to run the department of health -- >> and human services. >> something he has -- human services, something he has related experience in, as opposed to housing, which the only thing he knows of, the child lived at one point in public housing. well, i went to public schools, does that make me qualified to be secretary of education? i mean, he'll a brilliant man, but he has no experience in housing. >> let's have some fun. the governor of new jersey, he's still the governor of new jersey. >> still the governor of new

jersey. >> we haven't seen bottom line or bottom of the barrel numbers like this guy's got now. he is not popular. >> it's, a brutal year. two polls came out today, one showing that he has 18% approval rating now. and this is both democrats and republicans. i mean, this is the lowest since former governor florio. so his approval rating has hit rock bottom, just a few years ago after sandy, he was at 72%. and now he's at 18%, job approval rating, his job performance at 19%. democrats and republicans. so in terms of new jersey, he's really hit rock bottom. >> perfect chairman for the republican national committee. by the way, flurio tried to do some important things in education reform and helped poor communities afford good schools. >> that's true. that's true. >> he went down trying to do something good. >> he was hurt by taxes. >> kathy, tell us what grassly's

up to. all i know about grassley is he is a stickler if you're up for a government job. you go before him for a confirmation, you've got challenges facing you. is this going to be part of the future in the next couple of months? him nailing some trump appointees? >> you know, you would think so, except that jeff sessions apparently has grassley already saying that other people will have questions for jeff sessions, for ag, because of the fact that he got flushed from a federal judgeship back in the '80s. but chuck grassley does not have any concerns about him, because he said he has served alongside him for more than 20 years in the senate. feels like he's a man of integrity and is going to uphold the law. and that is good enough for chuck grassley. i was kind of surprised to hear that. he does think that confirmation hearing, which will go through his senate judiciary committee, will take pbably quite a bit of first month of the

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action man. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. donald trump will speak later this hour in fayetteville, north carolina. it's the second leg of his self-styled thank you tour to states that helped him win the presidency. it's an unusual spectacle, by the way. a president-elect returning to campaign-like rallies in the middle of a transition. but donald trump has broken the rules and what it means to be president-elect, obviously. anyway, trump, the candidate, promised a presidency full of action, and that's what we've gotten in the weeks since the election, almost on an hourly basis, trump continues to tweet, calling out his detractors, everyone from street