his 30-year career on capitol hill comes to a close. reid will give a farewell speech on the senate floor this morning. later, he'll be joined by vice president joe biden, hillary clinton, and other leaders >> it's a long career there. that does it for us on this thursday. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ >> "time" magazine named their person of the year. it's none other than president-elect donald trump. it's a big deal because it may be one of the last years. he's come a long way from his first "time" magazine cover an honor back in 1989 when he was working as a magician in atlantic city. isn't that something. congratulations to donald trump and to the photographer who got him to sit still and not tweet

for 30 seconds. >> the real estate agency that sells apartments inside trump tower is advertising the new 24-hour presence of secret service agents as a "new amenity." they advertise the eggs that hit your windows as free grocery delivery. reports that trump will get a golden doodle puppy when he takes office. to teach itow to beg and rollover, they actually brought in mitt romney. ♪ >> good morning. it is thursday. it's not friday yet. it's just thursday. >> look at that. >> welcome to "morning joe." isn't that a pretty tree? it's dark out. >> we were already coming up on my favorite day of the year, which is the shortest day of the year. every day after that is much longer. a little lighter and later every day. this fall has been extraordinary. and then i look and see the

warmest fall in history. >> it's about to get really cold so there. >> and we've got an incoming epa chairman that's going to make it even warmer for all of us. >> with us we have veteran columnist and msnbc mike barnicle. who looks nicer than manager of editor of bloomberg politics mark halperin. what's going on there? >> casual thursday. >> do you have a big watch on? >> and former treasury official steve rattner is with us. always very dapper. expensive. everything is expensive. i'm just ying. you can tell. >> you think this sweater is cheap? cost me 29.95. >> l.l. bean.

>> you think i'm wearing cashmere. it's l.l. bean. >> purchased six years ago when he bought ten. >> do me a favor, make this in dark brown. >> chocolate brown. >> i don't know if they make it anymore. >> they do this and they do gray. i bought 43 of these. >> they deliver them overnight. >> they do deliver them. help me out here. all right. so -- >> i'm going to do the news. >> before you do the news. >> please let me. >> i want to talk for a second. i want to talk for a second. i've been shocked, mark halperin. the last couple days especially. not shocked but very surprised. you know, we thought that donald trump could be very erratic in the selections that he made. we joked he would name a lot of golf course managers to run agencies. but actually, he is appointing

the most consistently ideologicall cservative rigid cabinet that i can think of in my lifetime other than ronald reagan. and there is an ideological consistency there that really does suggest that mike pence is having a heavy hand in this. you know, you heard people say listen to what donald trump says but watch what mike pence does. i'm not saying mike pence is this or that. >> puppet master. >> he's not. donald trump makes these decisions. but donald trump was not this ideologically rigid in the campaign. these are every pick that comes up. all of the never trumpers. jeb bush he's not putting out a selection saying this is great. i guess i'm so surprised. this is so traditionally right

wing republican that every one of these selections could have been made by ted cruz. >> moments ago they announced officially that the attorney general of oklahoma will be nominated as head of epa and jeff sessions. those two alone. not just ted cruz. they are as conservative idealogically conservative choices as possible you can make. on the other hand, he's also now for homeland security, for the pentagon, nominated people who could have been nominated by literally anyone in either party. >> he has three generals and a lot of ideologues. >> you can make an argument this is more conservative than reagan's cabinet. people more moderate and centrist. the new nominee is suing epa and now will be in charge of it.

>> you have james watt obviously very rigidly conservative. you also of course did have the james bakers in there and this will be the most conservative republican cabinet since herbert hoover in 1928 if all of these go through. my point is that i don't think that any of us saw this coming that he would be this rigidly conservative in his selections. >> carrying out the policy is the interesting aspect of the appointments. you have two blocks as mark pointed out. the the generals who have been appointed could have been appointed by hillary clinton or anybody else. >> not flynn. >> no because flynn was appointed by barack obama. >> madison kelly could have been

appointed by hillary clinton and then you have justice, health, education, epa, housing, extremely conservativeconservat. >> and people whose identity with and celebrity within the conservative movement is massive. >> price at hhs. massive. devos at education. massive. >> these people could go to heritage foundation and be treated like heroes. as you said, no one could have imagined the 16 republicans running for president would have picked this kind of list who we routinely say is the -- >> a guy who has been a democrat his entire life. the republican base they have to be an absolute ecstasy right now. all of the never trumpers have to be just absolutely delighted

at every one of these selections. surprised that it just keeps coming. >> he didn't listen to al gore. >> appointing and nominating people like this and taking meetings during the transition is -- >> the question is, we'll see over time, is this a tip of the hat to the republican base to say come on let's all get together and we'll leave you like barack obama and not listen to any of his cabinet officers? barack obama did listen to anybody. he didn't listen to his secretary of state. he didn't listen to his u.n. ambassador. he didn't listen to susan rice. he was locked up with a couple of people in the white house and all of these other people were irrelevant. i guess we'll see if trump sort

of tipping the hat to the right wing and then he does it all on his own or not. hard to say. >> you can argue if you have an open mind that he wants to be challenged. go ahead. >> i think you'll find that donald trump's interest in policies is limited. a big picture guy and big picture aspects of being president and when you debate whether tax rate should be 36% or 33% or this or that, it will be either mike pence or perhaps paul ryan and people on the hill that make those decisions. he went sit around in meetings debating nuances of policies. >> he's far less like barack obama and much more like ronald reagan. only way they got reagan moving in the 1986 tax reform bill, the massive tax reform bill is they went to him and told him a story and said mr. president, do you know that your secretary pays a higher tax rate than exxon or maybe it was ge.

i don't know who it was at the time. if it was jack running ge it was probably ge. just joking, jack. but that's how reagan was drawn in. the details, no. so i guess in that point you do suggest that all of these very conservative people are going to have a disproportionate impact on policy. >> these are not people coming to be figure heads. these are not people coming to say i'm just going to -- >> what about price? >> price as well. >> these are people who want to fundamentally change from barack obama's government to a much more conservative one. >> the one place where trump has drawn a line and we'll see if he sticks to it, he said we're not going touch social security or medicare or entitlement programs. he has a lot of people who will want to touch those. >> touch them for future

retirees. >> a couple confirmation hearings will be interesting. especially the price hearing. >> one thing is if you're elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, which ones do you g after? >> all of them. >> they can't. they can't filibuster everybody. >> they can go after them but thanks to the nuclear option it's a 51-vote decision. >> the democrats employ. >> harry reid had a piece saying it's a good idea. >> they can say they're going after everybody but there's no bandwidth to do research and mount campaigns and try to stop them all. >> i think plolitically you go after every one of them. >> mika really wants to read the news now. she's banging her foot. scott pruitt is attorney general in oklahoma where he's an ally the state's powerful energy industry. he's joined in lawsuits with other states suing the agency he

is set to lead seeking to overturn environmental regulations and he's also publicly doubted the scientific consensus on climate change. in may he co-authored a document saying the debate is far from settled. scientists continue to disagree about the degree and extent of global warming and its connections to the actions of mankind. it's not good. just days ago -- >> is that the case? >> no, it's not the case. >> i don't think it's the case. >> i don't think there's any question that there's climate change and that -- this is just fact check. humans actually have an impact on climate change. i think even donald trump is open to that. >> i know. >> you have to deal with facts as they are and not as you wish they were. facts are clear. you talked about how it was the warmest fall on record. i forget the exact numbers. high percentage of the hottest years in history have been in

the last three to five years. >> just days ago trump took a surprise meeting with former vice president al gore leading voice on reducing carbon emissions. and in response to pruitt's rumored selection, david axelrod said whatever he said he didn't get it. >> can't imagine a better pick than my friend scott pruitt to reform out of control epa. mark halperin, jeb bush was known as a fairly green republican governor. so that's interesting. what he says. also, there has been a belief among conservatives and certainly a lot of business people that the epa over the past eight years has been wildly out of control and there have been insnces that we can all bring up where they have been out of control. >> talk to anybody in energy, mining, any industry touched by epa and they would say the epa

for almost eight years has been out of control. the challenge for trump is to balance two things, which is let's have a really strong economy, a thriving energy sector, mining all of those things that america has great resources and let's deal with what almost every scientist will tell you human bavior causes global warming. it's possible to do both. picks are sending pendulum really far in the other direction. >> he really does need to make a sort of statement like he made to "the new york times" being open to what the reality is that there is such a thing as climate change and that humans have -- and he believes it. i don't know that. i don't know that from talking to donald trump. but i know the guy has to believe it. he is not sticking his head in the sand, and he doesn't have a reason, an ideological reason to not believe that.

that's what's disappointing here. we'll see what happens. >> i think you're right. i think he probably does believe it. he's going to have a heck of a time with mr. pruitt because he'll have to get involved in every issue that may not be what he wants to do because pruitt will go in another direction with the epa. >> environment is one of the issues american people don't want to talk about. it's always at the bottom of the polls. i tell you what, when youush too hard in one direction as a lot of americans thought al gore did in 2005 and 2006, americans respond negatively that way. but this -- and i saw this as a right wing conservative congressman, you push too far in the other direction, they come at you. and, you know, i was always very conservative fiscally but also pretty green. certainly greener than anybody this side of california or south

of new york as a republican and it always served me well because conservatives -- people in wisconsin, people in pennsylvania, people in ohio, they care about air quality. they care about water quality. i know in my district they wanted to make sure they could take their children out fishing when they were 5 years old just like their fathers had taken them out when they were 5 years old and grandfathers had taken their fathers out. there's not balance. i guess this is at 16 after what we're getting to. there is not balance in these selections and by selecting pruitt for epa, that's basically put rex tillerson out of the running for secretary of state. >> rex tillerson is a huge green guy. >> you say he's a huge green guy. >> up to a point. >> for a guy that's running -- >> i'm just saying that he may

be but you cannot have the selection that you just had at epa and then have the guy running exxon mobil for 20 years as your secretary of state. there has to be balance. >> so hard to balance though because he's going to withdraw it seems obvious from every international agreement. he's not going to -- he's going to try to undermine as many as epa regulations as possible. >> pruitt? >> pruitt and the president-elect. >> you think they'll withdraw from the paris agreement? >> yeah. how could you pick pruitt and not? >> that's a question. you're donald trump. donald trump is not going to do oh my god, the former attorney general of oklahoma has told me that -- that's not how he works. again, we'll see if there's a method to the madness. we're playing to the cheap seats. i don't know. like i said, he could be like obama and pretend that all of

his cabinet secretaries are nothing but potted plants. we never know. in some of these cases we hope so but you're right though. if you have an ideologue running epa every single day, he's cutting away at regulations that protect water quality. he's cutting away at regulations that protect air quality. >> and working with republican led congress that wants to do it and will not have oversight hearings on behalf of al gore. >> this is very problematic politically. >> for some of us it's terrifying. >> is terrifying for a lot of people. i am just saying and as i remind people all the time, mika and i are employed here to tell people what's coming. i can tell you these selections as they're setting up, what they're doing is they're setting up a war and they're setting up a war with voters in wisconsin, pennsylvania, ohio, and wait a second, if i want to vote for

newt gingrich, i would have voted for newt gingrich. if i wanted to vote for ted cruz, i would have voted for ted cruz. i voted for donald trump because i don't want this to look like the republican house. it's looking a lot like the republican house. i got a lot of friends in the republican house. i'm just saying in those swing states he won, this is not a pathway to re-election. >> what's going to happen when pruitt realizes and is told repeatedly by business people and it's good for business being green is good for business. >> it's the new forefront in business. >> i don't think businessmen honestly believe that being green is good for business. i think they believe that being green is an important part of being a responsible corporate citizen in the modern world and having people feel that you're trying to do the right thing. there are plenty of businessmen who would love to see the epa regulations relaxed and things like that. >> all right. hold it there. we're going to look at other

headlines making news right now. two juveniles have been charged in connection with the devastating wildfires that killed 14 people in tennessee last week. the suspects were arrested on aggravated arson charges, which they could face as adults. more than 145 people were injured and 1,700 homes were destroyed in those wildfires. a massive search is under way right now for man accused of shooting two police offirs i america's georgia killing one of them. authorities released this wanted poster of the suspect. he's considered extremely dangerous. the officer was shot and killed yesterday morning while responding to a domestic disturbance. jody smith was providing backup and was also shot and is in critical condition. and finally, for the first time in over 20 years, the life expectancy for americans has declined.

according to the report release, the decrease was the result of rising fatalities from heart disease, strokediabetes and drug overdoses. >> first things we're talking about is food, obesity, it's a fattening america. >> it's also economic disparity. it's a lot of different things. it's depression. it's mental health. it's everything that we have been seeing that's been happening over the past 20 years that led to the rise of trump. >> look, you have particularly high rising death rates among whites between 45 and 54 including from things like suicides as well as drug overdoses. >> wages. job loss. all related to health. >> as far as diet and exercise goes, again, we don't want big brother doing it and getting involved in this, but i can tell

you big brother is about to go bankrupt because of medicare and medicaid, and this is all connected. rising medicaid charges are connected to horrific diets. inactive population. it is all connected. we can sit back and say the government should keep its hand -- but they are coming and getting our tax dollars and we're going bankrupt over it. >> "the washington post" has it right. >> we sat here shocked and confused. he's the jolly green giant. >> he's a huge fossil fuel guy. >> he runs exxon mobil. >> i apologize. >> as alex noted that he's green as -- >> he's one of the toughest s.o.b.s around. >> that's why trump likes him. >> this is the lead story at 22

past the hour. right here. everything we talked about we backed into it. >> it's a shocking story. >> if you really think about it, what we've been reporting over the last three years, the next generation for the first time ever will not do as well financially as the previous generation. this is connected. this is absolutely connected. >> a first lady for eight years emphasized all of those issues, exercise and diet. >> it's seen as -- this is actually on the forefront of what the president's mandate needs to be and republicans and democrats in terms of wages, job growth, health, and the environment. and infusing businesses and infrastructure because we don't have a healthy country. we don't have people making enough money. wages are flat. their health is terrible. it's related. >> by the way, the opposite is happening in most developed countries. life spans are getting longer not shorter.

>> we'll dig into the latest picks and we'll have chris murphy from foreign relations committee. i think he ran against linda mcmahon. we'll speak with congressman elijah cummings calling for an investigation into russia's interference into america's elections and congressman matt salmon. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine.

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he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. >> i've now gotten to know president obama. i really like him. i can say for myself, i can't speak for him, we have a really good chemistry together. we talk. he loves the country. he wants to do right by the

country. and for the country. i will tell you, we obviously very much disagree on certain policies and certain things, but, you know, i really like him as a person. i've aed him what he thinks are the biggest problems of the country and what are some of the greatest assets going forward, and we have a very good dialogue. i take his recommendations very seriously, and there are some people that i will be appointing and in one case have appointed where he thought very highly of that person. >> let's talk about that for a second. real quickly, one all-star that we did not talk about. general kelly at dhs. i know he's putting a lot of generals in there. this guy, like mattis, is a real winner. >> solid appointment. worked for general mattis in iraq. he was in the command staff just under general mattis in iraq.

lost his son, lieutenant robert kelly, in afghanistan in 2010. knows and understands the concept of loss. he's the kind of man you would put your trust in to do the job that he's been given. you put your trust in him. >> extraordinary the profiles written about him and even the advice he gave his son in one profile saying do not allow your fellow marines to hate the enemy. do not allow them to celebrate killing a member of the taliban. understand the taliban have their jobs. we have our jobs. do not dehumanize the enemy and then after his son died, what he did in reaching out to other troops and other families. pretty extraordinary. >> another pick that jeb bush praised. >> jeb is just -- you know what? jeb is checking them all off. every single one. >> look at this one.

>> by the way, this is the most energy jeb has shown. he's high energy jeb on the tweets with all of the selections. every five minutes. i like that one too. >> he's doing "saturday night live" this week i'm told. >> general kelly. likes general kelly. good pick for education. there you go. >> cabinet that looks like jeb bush's america. >> mika, what do you make of donald trump continuing to praise barack obama. barack obama again showing a lot of grace. even though valerie jarrett said she was sick for a week after he was elected. she said it really upset her. >> good people to help. and actually, that's -- president obama is setting a standard that i wish leading democrats would follow. i really do. >> he's a gracious man. he was treated in the incoming

obama administration treated so well by george w. bush's outgoing administration that he's going to do the same thing. >> he understands the importance of a good transition and graceful transition. i know democrats were still seething. it's not going to help them. >> if you read david's piece in "the new yorker" where he spent a lot of time with obama. obama wouldn't talk on the record about what he thought about trump but you read between the lines and sources and whatever. i think there is a -- i think obama still has a lot of concern about trump's knowledge. >> it's the president's club. exclusive club. the other thing is, he's lobbying him hard on things like climate and health care to try to preserve as much as he can. >> george w. bush didn't think too much of barack obama's policies, but he said i owe you the privilege of silence. barack obama is paying that forward saying i owe you the privilege of silence and shows a

great deal of discipline that quite frankly i can think of one president in our immediate past that did not have that discipline. it was unbecoming of him from 2001 forward to not weigh in every three seconds. >> coming up, photos on front of "the new york times" is grim. the rising body count as there's a drug war in the streets of the philippines. days earlier he said donald trump endorsed his methods. we'll talk about the president-elect's foreign policy vision ahead on "morning joe" with senator chris murphy and ian brzezinski. we'll be right back. we live in a pick and choose world.

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they are the natural borns enemy of the way things are. yes, ideas are scary, and messy and fragile. but under the proper care, they become something beautiful.

>> i make the point today and i make the point to my colleagues that the change of an administration in the united states will not change the unwaiu unwavering commitment of the united states to our ideals or to the united nations. >> joining us from washington, democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut. and resident senior fellow on

international security at the atlantic council ian brzezinski. good to have you both onboard. >> congressman, we've been talk -- did i say congressman? senator. >> they're both good jobs. >> my street lights will be ripped out by the time i get home. we've been talking about how conservative these cabinet selections have been. does the epa selection cause you the greatest concern of all of them? >> i think epa causes a lot of concern. the idea that we are going to do a 180 on climate policy. i think it's disastrous from a number of perspectives. from a national security perspective as member of the foreign relations committee, i worry about it as well. i don't think there's any way to read the crises that have broken out without understanding the impact of the droughts that have

been brought about by climate change and the fact that we'll see renewable energy economy to china and germany and other parts of the world is just a prescription to lose potentially millions of jobs. so that's concerning to me. flynn is very concerning too. no matter who you pick for secretary of state, your national security adviser is first and last person you talk to and the fact that this guy seems a little bit unhinged when it comes to these conspiracy theories should be worrying to everybody. >> i hope he keeps talking to bob gates. let me ask you about someone you know well. you ran against linda mcmahon. from the outside, people can laugh about the business that she and her family runs but in fact you and i know that it actually employs close to 1,000 people. brings a lot of money to the state of connecticut. would like about 20 more businesses like that in the state of connecticut. talk about the linda mcmahon that you know and do you have any concerns about her running

sba or could she be capable? >> i ran against her in 2012. she wasn't very nice to me in that campaign. i've forgiven. and she's unquestionably qualified for this job. she turned a small business into a big multinational business which is what a lot of small businesses want to become. she's a connecticut republican. not an oklahoma republican. she's bringing some important moderate values to the administration. so, yeah, i think of all of the potential picks for sba, linda mcmahon would have been at the top of my list and i'll support her when she comes before the senate. >> she's very -- i've seen her at a number of events where i was the only democrat in the room and she came right over and was extremely lovely on a personal level. >> probably more lovely to you than the senator in the 12th campaign. it was a tough campaign. >> it was rough. it was wwf. >> i am irish but i don't hold

grudges like other brethren. >> like barnicle. >> ian, what are your thoughts -- let's talk about the national security team and start with general mattis at defense. what are your thoughts about the message that's being projected towards europe and nato and what's donald trump's greatest challenge as he confronts europe and nato. >> good morning, joe. good morning, mika. nice to be back. >> exactly. >> on general mattis, that's a fantastic pick. a seasoned war fighter. a military historian that understands the battle and cost of battle. this is great and reassuring pick. if you had to ask me what the biggest challenge that president-elect trump is to transform what's been a glib set

of policy platforms articulated during the course of the campaign. in case of nato, he raised concerns about the commitment to the alliance but can drive forward an important commitment to change. >> one of the things he's concerned about that a lot of voters are concerned about are the contributions to nato. poland pays its fair share. other countries pay their fair share. how do we make sure that the united states is not carrying nato on its back all by itself? >> the fact is nato isn't being carried by the united states solely. we have to remember that while there are areas where allies can do more in burden sharing, they have carried a heavy weight in afghanistan and iraq and elsewhere. the inheriting an alliance that is

carrying the burden. i think this year they are spending $3 billion to $5 billion than the previous year. progress is being made. someone like trump is in a good position to drive it forward. >> mike barnicle. >> senator murphy, what would the procedure be in the incoming trump administration sought to withdraw from the paris accords? >> well, this is an executive agreement so he doesn't need the consent of congress to withdraw from the paris accords and that's the weakness that entering into an international agreement that isn't a treaty. there's a fairly long progress inside that executive agreement to unwind it so it would take a number of years for him to back out. when you're in the black box of a campaign it's easy to come out and tell the country you'll back out of an international agreement like paris but we'll meet with international leaders who will tell him it's not just

about climate if you back out of this agreement, you're going to compromise u.s. integrity on other fronts when the president enters into an agreement, there is an expectation that will last at least through the next administration. i think as he understands keeping the country safe, he may rethink backing out of paris. it's no the just about the damage that would do to the climate. it's also about the weakness it would portray in the world when heyies to enter into other negotiations. >> how do you feel about flynn's role as national security adviser? >> it will be interesting to see how the rest of the cabinet fills out. here we have an accomplished three-star who is now going to have to manage possibly one, two, maybe even three four stars. that's going to be an interesting dynamic. it could be a challenge. >> and i think in that case, we already have heard that the four

star seems -- the other generals around seem to understand that the fourth star actually does matter in this case. general flynn has just said outright, general mattis is smarter. and he's better and basically he'll be deferring to general mattis. >> and there's also the coming appointment of the secretary of state. >> that balance. >> if it were bob gates to become secretary of state -- >> that would be the greatest thing in the world. >> he would be extraordinary. we've said it before. i don't know if bob gates would do it. he served eight presidents but he's the kind of guy that if your president calls, you really have no choice. but again, like we said before, imagine bob gates and jim mattis together. those two, that would be the strongest one-two combination. that's beyond -- we've said it before. that's as good as it gets.

>> trump is convincing when he wants to be. >> so senator chris murphy, before we go, give us a sense of where we stand in terms of efforts toward a bipartisan bill on mental health. some success. >> some success in all of the dysfunction down here. last night the senate passed 94-5 the most comprehensive reform of mental health bills in a generation that i wrote with a consvative republican from the deepsouth. one of the big things it will do to change insurance laws to cor more mental health treatments. this was part of that bigger package that included $1 billion for opiate funding and others. hopefully a preview of the fact that notwithstanding whatever donald trump is saying on the never ending campaign trail that republicans and democrats actually can come together and

work on some important stuff as somebody from a family who suffered from mental illness like so many others, this is personally important to me and probably the most important thing i've worked on. help coming to families struggling with mental illness. that's good news. >> would you have an issue with going and meeting with the president-elect or anybody on his new team if they asked you? >> not at all. some of my colleagues have gotten some grief for going over and meeting with him. he's our president. he's my president too. i'm going to have to work with him. >> thank you. thank you. >> if he wants to talk to me, i'll talk to him. >> that's connecticut leadership right there. that's connecticut leadership. >> senator chris murphy, ian brzezinski, thank you very much to you both. >> by the way, how about with chris murphy. he's our president. go meet him. >> you have to try. >> don't be like republicans eight years ago who said from day one we're going to stop this guy. figure out what do we agree on and then go work it.

we haven't talked -- there has been so much to talk about so far, we haven't talked about the tweet storm last night. >> we can't do that right now, joe. we have to go to a break and we need to talk about the pope. >> i don't want to talk about that. >> we have to talk about the pope. i actually think he nailed it. >> always time for pope talk. >> not when the pope is talking about being excited about certain things. still ahead, senator ted cruz wants you to know that he loves cheese. >> awkwa sound bite. >> and we mean he really, really loves cheese. do you think he -- >> we'll be right back. the microsoft cloud helps us

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>> what makes texas casos so great. >> speaks to the soul. good caso relaxes you.

cheese dip can be served on a ritz crack we are a tiny sausage, it's meant to be scooped up with chips dribbling down your chin and on your shirt. one is a visceral emotional powerful family bond as you and your kids pour into nachos covered in caso. the other is party favors at an afternoon tea. >> what the hell am i doing here? >> who do i get out of here? >> and finally the senator escaped as quickly as possible before he talked about other places on his body where he put caso. that was disturbing. not as disturbing as this next story. >> pope francis is speaking out against the spread of fake news and its effect on the recent u.s. election. in a recent interview he said

the media had a great responsibility not to succumb to the spread of disinformation. the pope compared the spread of fake news to a sickness of an abnormal interest in defecation. in the interview he added i believe the media should be very clear, very transparent and not fall prey to the sickness which is wanting to communicate scandal and ugly things even though they may be true. >> i'm having second thoughts about this pope. >> a way with words. >> no, no, no. he is absolutely correct. >> he's brought more attention to the fake news phenomenon than i might have. >> i don't think he's crystallized that president. >> imperfect man and imperfect metaphor. >> what happened last night? what happened last night with

the tweeting back and forth. some union guy and what's going on? what's the tweet thing? >> we had the news story yesterday. the union guy says donald trump came in and lied. lied his -- off. >> about carrier. >> president-elect said you're a lousy union leader. pay more attention to getting union dues down and it kept on. union guy came back at 9:00. the former secretary of labor got into it and they had a tweet storm. >> did they really? >> yeah. >> trump tweeted a lot? >> a couple times. >> the incredible thing is they said they were going to keep this many jobs. union leader felt he was misled and the president-elect has nothing to do but sendweets out accepting a local union leader with a few hundred employees in indiana. >> spend more time working. less time talking.

reduce dues. all right. >> a terrible job representing workers. no wonder companies flee country. >> every time chuck jones was on the show last night, trump tweeted. >> come on. >> this does not help with the narrative that he's just kind of -- >> you know the thing is, if people want to understand it, it doesn't make sense to any of us. it makes sense to donald trump and his people like when he does this. >> i don't. >> i know you don't. you're not his people. i'm just saying his people like when he does it. >> i don't think he should do it. >> at some point you might want to cast a wider net. >> step back and instead of beating our chest in

self-righteous indignation, we way want to ask why is he doing this? >> not a lot to think about there. >> the chances are good he's doing this because a lot of people that voted for him like when he strikes out. not saying it's good or bad. >> coming up, much more on trump's high profile appointments when "morning joe" continues. [engine revving] ♪ ♪ is it a force of nature? or a sales event? the season of audi sales event is here. audi will cover your first month's lease payment on select models during the season of audi sales event.

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>> he's got a well developed sense of humor. he doesn't take himself too seriously either. when the onion ran a mock photo of him watching a trans-am in the white house driveway shirtless, america embraced it, and so did he. i think it's hilarious, he said. by the way, i have a corvette. a '67 corvette. not a trans-am. >> sometimes even more than the matterf public importance is the ability to please a young girl or an old man or an ill young man casting a first vote, an important vote, the fact that you took your time on that day of importance to you to shed some light and offer some joy to someone who was struggling,

that's the joe biden that has us here for two hours offering these tributes. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's the top of the hour on this thursday, december 8th. >> wasn't that a nice scene? >> joining the conversation, contributor to "time" magazine. good event. we have trump's choices. more have come in. >> we were talking earlier last hour the surprise at how ideologically conservative and sort of predictable his choices have been to this point. these look like ted cruz's selections and not of a manhattan billionaire that's been a democratic for most of his life and didn't even talk this way on the campaign trail that i am going to pick rigidly conservative people in my

cabinet. >> and trump's pollster called it post-ideology and that's why everyone is watching so closely to see what's his philosophy going to be when he comes into office. i think he is showing that he's been very influenced by the traditional republican party apparatus in his picks. >> absolutely. scott pruitt is trump's choice to head the environmental protection agency. pruitt is the attorney general in oklahoma where he's an ally the state's powerful energy industry. he's joined lawsuits with other states suing the agency that he is set to lead seeking to overturn environmental regulations. he's also publicly doubted the scientific consensus on climate change. in may, he co-authored an article saying that the debate is "far from settled." scientists continue to disagree about the degree and extent of global warming and connectns

to t actions of mankind. >> the first line is categorically false. that debate is far from settled. you can argue degrees of impact, steve rattner, that human activity has on climate change, but actually the science behind it is not far from settled. >> if you think back five, six, seven years, it may not have been settled. there were people on both sides and there was a robust argument in the last three, four, five years that have been settled by evidence and by virtually every expert on the planet saying this is what's happening and we need to deal with it. >> so what is this pos post-ideological president doing with these cabinet selections. how does it impact his ability to have sway over states like wisconsin and michigan and pennsylvania, the three together going for a republican for the

first time since 1984. >> who is going to drive policy in this administration in education and epa and attorney general and hhs. he's nominated very sharply ideological activists who ted cruz i don't necessarily think would have had the followthrough to nominate. will they make policy? will paul ryan make policy? mike pence? you see mike pence's hand here. just based on these people and their visions for fundamental change, conservative change, they're going to play a role. there's no doubt in my mind. it will be up to other people in the government if they want to counteract this to say this is going too far. the politics of it as you said in those states, this is not in some cases what donald trump talked about in the campaign. it's not. >> and i remember before you were talking right before the election saying, look at this.

newt gingrich, mike huckabee, this is scaring me and some people running golf courses were people that we were joking about would be head of agencyies. he's not going that direction. you're not seeing that. in ben carson's defense, he says he's not qualified to do it. >> that's why you appoint someone. >> i have a story i'll tell off camera about telling someone that i'm not ready for something. that tells me that you are ready for it. how fascinating that the never trumpers and ""wall street journal" editorial page have to sit back going, wow, i would not have gotten this with jeb or marco. >> with domestic policy, overall

i feel pretty good. i think there are a few hiccups in appointments but he's got firm and steady hands. it comes down to foreign policy and who will he pick for foreign policy roles at this point and particularly secretary of state. i would like mitt romney or bob corker would be my top picks and those are most easily -- >> bob gates. >> i don't think that's going to happen. isn't he kind of more of an advisory -- i would be shocked. pleasantly surprised but unlikely. what trump has to watch is not his cabinet picks but himself tweeting about domestic issues that are getting so small fry that they distract from the big picture with carrier and this union going against the union le leader on twitter causing him to

get death threats. inappropriate. >> foreign policy is important for the country but ultimately he was elected by voters in four states in the upper midwest who thought he could help them in their economic state of affairs. mark's point was these picks are not consistent with ideology of most of the people in those states. take it to the next level. what are these picks going to do that will make lives better of the people that voted for trump and caused them to re-elect him. what about these policies that will make them feel good? >> "wall street journal" editorial page would say they're going to unburden businesses, large and small, from out of control epa regulations. again, i'm just making the argument that "the wall street journal" editorial page would likely make. as far as education reform with devos, you're going to see somebody that's going to actively try to break the 50-year monopoly that unions

have had on public education. we spend more money per pupil than any other nation in the world, and we don't get those results. we don't get the results in large part because k through 12 public education system does the same thing over and over again and doing it wrong. so there are a lot of people that i think wouldn't be heartened by that. when you start talking about the environment, you start talking about this pick in particular, that's when people start to get worried. there has to be a balance. type of balance that bill clinton had. >> all i'm saying is that if you are that former manufacturing worker up in wisconsin or some place and your pay has gone from $25 an hour to $12 an hour, things you talk about -- if they work, they take a long time to work. if you're going to deregulate business. it has to trickle down to more jobs. same on education. it's a long process. >> the stock market is

responding immediately and as we talked about for years, there's trillions of dollars offshore. that money could come back if they see a more positive business climate. listen, i think it takes a long time. i think presidents always get too much credit for turning the economy around or destroying the economy. i think it takes a long time. this is a massive huge battle ship that slowly turns around. i do think that some of these things while we may be concerned, wall street loves it and chances are good the people holding trillions of dollars offshore will love it too. >> i don't know that wall street loves the microtargeting of various corporations though by donald trump. "the wall street journal" in particular has been very upset about picking winners and losers and intervening in one off cases of factories closing jobs that are being ultimated. >> there will be a lot of deregulation which allow margins

to go up. how that ultimately turns into incomes for the people in wisconsin and indiana is more indirect. >> there's more robust economic growth eventually. the notion of lowering regulation including in the financial sector and repealing dodd/frank or changing it dramatically, nothing unites the republican party today across the board. small business, big business, republican members of congress. donald trump, i said before, this is not what he promised. on some things it's not. on notion of lower regulation, absolutely part of what he ran on and what every republican has run on since barack obama became president. >> one of the things he needs to be concerned about, economic advisers need to be concerned about is priming the pump too much. the one thing this country cannot afford right now is inflation and higher interest rates with a $20 trillion debt that we're servicing now with free money but when the interest rates go up to 2%, 3%, 4%, 7%,

up to 10% we're doomed. once the horse is out of the barn, it's hard to get it back in. >> multiple outlets are reporting that donald trump will pick retired four star marine general john f. kelly for secretary of homeland security. he saw combat in iraq and in 2010 became the highest ranking member to lose a child in afghanistan or iraq when his son, lieutenant robert kelly, was killed. as head of homeland security, kelly would be given oversight of emergency management and tsa and reports of his nomination won approval from jeb bush, a skeptic of trump's border and immigration policies who tweeted that general kelly is a great choice. >> high energy jeb was tweeting all day yesterday basically saying all of the choices are great. mike, the general, general kelly, a guy you respect and beloved by almost all that know

him. >> absolutely. not only an honorable person but a thoughtful person. the title general a lot of people have been mired in controversy about the number of generals that donald trump is attracted to and/or appointing to positions but the two generals, general mattis and general kelly, are unique in that they are far more than just military men. they are thoughtful men. well read. well grounded. both are certainly capable and the kind of people you would entrust your children to in terms of going into the military. they are thoughtful. they've been shot at. they know what it's like to have suffered losses, and they are capable leaders. both of them. >> there's a profile in "the washington post" that some people were sending it around yesterday pretty incredible. they talk about the process of his son going to afghanistan and

him basically telling his family, preparing his family, that it was very likely that his son would be injured or die because of where he was and because he was losing so many people. >> that perspective many argued was missing in the administration. go ahead. >> ten days after lieutenant robert kelly was killed in afghanistan stepping on a lan mine, his father, general john kelly, gave a speech in st. louis that he had agreed to give to gold star families prior to the death of his son. he gave that speech. he never mentioned his family's own loss during that speech. but within that speech, he talked about two young men guarding a gate at a base in iraq, and there was a suicide truck bomber approaching the gate. both young men, young marines,

lost their lives guarding the gate, protecting their brothers and sisters behind them. fellow marines. he talked about the last six seconds of those young men's lives. it's as powerful a piece of rhetoric and far more than just rhetoric that i or anyone else who has seen it. you can find it on youtube. it's just an incredibly powerful piece to read and to witness and to listen to. >> trump tapped iowa's governor to serve as ambassador to china. the longest serving governor in american history. >> not an image i expected to see. >> he's had a long relationship with chinese president. the two first met when he traveled to iowa 30 years ago as a local official studying agriculture. >> i'm feeling better about that one. i didn't know that.

>> ambassadors go over there and are never given access to highest level of chinese government. they meet with lower ministers. the hope is that branstad will influence what happened. >> yes. >> still ahead on "morning joe," congressman elijah cummings wants to get to the bottom of russia's influence over the u.s. election through state sponsored hackings and hallie jackson will join us. she spoke with a union boss to found himself in a public feud with the president-elect. we'll be right back. world ugly and messy. they are the natural born enemy of the way things are.

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generosity is its oyou can handle being a mom for half an hour. i'm in all the way. is that understood? i don't know what she's up to, but it's not good. can't the world be my noodles and butter? get your mind out of the gutter. mornings are for coffee and contemplation. that was a really profound observation. you got a mean case of the detox blues. don't start a war you know you're going to lose. finally you can now find all of netflix in the same place as all your other entertainment. on xfinity x1. >> i appreciate mr. trump getting involved in saving as

many people livelihoods as he did. i just wish he had the numbers down. we had a lot of our members when the word was coming out of 1,100, they thought that they would have a job. and then they find out the next day after that most likely they weren't. 550 were still going to lose their jobs. >> that was the head of the union that represents workers at the carrier plant pushing back on the number of jobs donald trump claims he saved. joining us now, nbc news correspondent hallie jackson with more on this. this became kind of a -- >> a thing. >> a thingast night. it doesn't help either side >> i'll tell you what, it certainly evolved throughout the evening, right? donald trump sends a twitter message that targets an individual person and remember, he has an enormous following. so people immediately start talking about that.

here's a tweet calling him he's doing a terrible job no wonder companies flee the country is from the president-elect. i talked to chuck jones after this tweet was sent. called him up. i took exception to the math of the president-elect on the number of jobs that would be saved. i don't think he liked that very much. he said he was getting harassing and threatening messages from people. people that said he knew he had children. people that said you better watch out. he was unconcerned about them. he said i've been doing this 30 years. i have a thick skin. i'm okay. he's thanked donald trump in the past for coming and saving those jobs and wants to work with him to save the rest of the jobs at the plant that are ending up moving across the border. chuck was on lawrence o'donnell last night talking about this. here's what he said. >> the whole thing is ridiculous. he takes exception to being corrected. and on my numbers, i'm correct.

he's wrong. on the promises that he made on the campaign circuit to the american people about carrier, he's saying he didn't say. so he's wrong on that. he stood up last thursday and told falsehoods and that's what i was calling him out on. >> there have been news reports out tonight that since you went public on this, you have received threats from trump supporters. what can you tell us about that? >> you know, you better keep an eye on your kids. we know what kind of car you drive. things along those lines. i'm not concerned about it. i'm not getting anybody involved, authorities or nothing. i can deal with people that, you know, make stupid statements and i'll move on. >> chuck is getting backup by the national steel workers union which is sending out a tweet saying the reason that the jobs are even there in the first place are because of chuck's hard work and people like him.

>> who is wrong or right with the numbers? >> it's not 1,000 jobs. it's closer to 800. 730 is the figure. so that's the correct figure that chuck is talking about. >> that would still be the headline in donald trump hadn't taken to twitter last night. it wouldn't have been buried. donald trump is president-elect and has a huge microphone. if he could have stayed off his twitter account. this is messaging issue that he has constantly where he grabs defeat from the jaws of victory. it's amazing how this story, narrative change, just because of twitter. >> i do think there is a transformation that might happen and hopefully needs to happen because everyone is, like, will we stop tweeting? he's not going to stop tweeting. and one of the reasons that he is who he is because he jumps. at the same time, you make a very good point. i think there was a great opportunity to tell a story and

it's now been whittled down into a war between the president-elect and a guy from the union. >> i strongly recommend to you the op-ed piece in "wall street journal" that compares donald trump to lady gaga and lincoln and says he's a performance artist. that explains the tweets. >> my dad calls him imaginative. >> so is lady gaga. >> it has to be thought out. >> no meat dress for donald trump. >> hallie jackson, thank you so much. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> i don't think anybody knows it was russia that broke into the dnc. she's saying russia, russia, russia. maybe it was. it could be russia. it could also be china. could be lots of other people and someone sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds. you don't know who broke into dnc. >> first it was a 400-pound guy and now trump says it could have been a guy from new jersey as he

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>> you talk about human rights advisers in china, much can be said in china. >> where do you come from? >> i came from the former soviet union. i came here as a political refugee. >> what country? >> the former soviet union. >> that's good. then the audience knows you're bias. >> i'm bias because i'm an american citizen born in a foreign country. >> when you start saying that russia -- do you know that there have been no political reforms in china? none. >> i'm not advocating that china be our best friend. i'm talking to you about russia right now. >> you said russia and china are the same and i'm sorry, they're not. >> they are both human rights abusers. how am i wrong? >> in china, they don't have -- >> accused of murdering journalists. >> i'll let the public decide

about that last comment where you're coming from. >> the truth is where she's coming from. >> i don't understand that. dana was always tough on soviets and russia. and by the way, he was actually tough on putin. >> the last part of the interview she said so you're comparing putin and gorbachev and he said, yes, they are on the same level. >> that's outrageous. >> that was a great interview. >> but wait. again, putin assassinates journalists that disagrees with him. he shoots down in front of the kremlin political opponents. he's a guy that locks political opponents into jail for years. what's dana talking about? >> shoots down planes flying over. >> shoots down commercial airlines planes. >> maybe part of his strategy in the secretary of state sweepstakes that he thinks being pro-russia is a way to

ingratiate himself and up his ranking. >> where would you get that? >> he is actually judging, and i'm shocked by this. i've known dana for a long time. he's always been tough. the right ways. i'm shocked that he's attacking somebody that actually the parents fled the soviet union and came to america. and he's defending -- this is mind-blowing. what's he doing? >> it's disturbing that the point of attack these days with a lot of people for disagreement is you aren't allowed to have a viewpoint on that because you're an immigrant from so and so nation. you can't be a judge because you're of mexican american descent. >> in this case, dana is

defending vladimir putin. >> he should go back on tv and try to fix this. >> i don't understand. he was always a conservative. is supporting putin gunning down people in the street the new conservativ conservative? what do they call them if you're not real conservatives? are you a rhino if you don't have pictures of putin on the wall shirtless and pray to him every night. i don't get that. >> a bipartisan push to investigate russia's role in the 2016 presidential election. republican senator lindsey graham says he'll lead an inquiry into the hacking of democratic officials that u.s. intelligence agencies say were directed by russia's senior most officials and house democrats introduced legislation to form a bipartisan commission to investigate foreign interference. it comes as trump continued to be skeptical of russian involvement in the campaign

telling "time" magazine i don't believe they interfered. that became a laughing point and not a talking point. a laughing point. any time i do something they say russia interfered. it could be russia, it could be china and it could be some guy at his home in new jersey. >> no, it couldn't. didn't intel agencies believe it was russia? >> at the highest levels of the u.s. government there is consensus about this. >> why don't we ask somebody that actually knows and that's a ranking member of the house oversight and government reform committee, democratic congressman elijah cummings of maryland who introduced that legislation calling for an investigation. first of all, let's talk about the first point. the president-elect says it is a laughing point to suggest that russia was involved. if you could, just give us chapter and verse the evidence that we have that russia was involved in the hacking. >> the fact is, joe, that all 17 of our intelligence agencies have said without a doubt russia

was involved in trying to interfere and interfering with the 2016 presidential election. that's a unanimous thing. >> that is unanimous. you're not giving me democratic talking points. that's unanimous from all 17 intel agencies. >> 17. that's right. >> if donald trump has been briefed by the intel community, chances are pretty good he's heard this from the intel community, right? >> that's right. i think he's been briefed maybe four times generally by the intelligence community. obviously president-elect trump is skeptical about the intelligence that he's getting but the fact is that he's are people who put their lives on the line every day and we pay them to get us the best intelligence. we in congress rely on them. >> the banner says democrats call for a probe into russian hacking. as a republican, that's a depressing headline. are republicans supporting your

efforts? are republicans standing in the way? what republicans are helping you? what republicans are being obstructionists here? >> we've asked the chaian to do an oversight. radio silence there. >> why? >> i don't know. i don't know. >> what's the staff say? >> they are basically giving us saying that they're going to wait and they want to give president-elect trump time to get his staff together and making appointments. lindsey graham, who i don't agree with on many issues, over there on the senate side, asked for the investigation and marco rubio has asked for -- said that basically we need to look into this. what we're trying to do, joe, is we're trying to make this truly a bipartisan effort. this is bigger than this

election. this is bigger than trump. this is about saving and preserving our democracy. when you have 17 intelligence agencies saying that ty are interfering, this is something that should alarm all of us. hopefully this commission will come together and be able to get -- have republicans get behind it so we can address it. >> what we do on the show all the time, we have for eight or nine years, we always say can you imagine if a republican had said fill in the blank, right? of course the media is always blind to that. republicans are tated differently by the media. not in a positive way. in this case, you've got to say, can you imagine the squealing on the right if russians helped democrats by leaking information weekly. sometimes daily against a republican candidate.

they would talk about impeaching and removing from office an illegitimate president. it's been now over decades -- >> they would talk about impeaching the incoming president and they would be talking about tearing the intel agencies down to the ground. the fact there has not been more offense from republicans at this point is really discouraging. >> more than a decade since we've had a legit bipartisan investigative hearing. it just doesn't happen anymore because of how polarizing things have become. nothing demands a bipartisan serious actual oversight investigation than this. nothing. >> exactly right. >> one of the things that i'm trying to do is keep this -- not bring us to common ground but to higher ground. this is going to affect generations yet unborn. the other thing is i don't want it to become normal for us to expect other countries like russia to interfere with our election. interferes with the integrity of

our process. >> this becomes more common now. i'm hearing a lot more from people in washington who will say don't talk to me on the phone. chinese are listening. israelis are listening. russians are listening. and six months ago i took that as a joke. it's not a joke anymore. they are listening. >> you are absolutely right. >> the surveillance powers that donald trump is going to inherit, it's troubling to know that there is so little oversight and that we have essentially become a surveillance state and we aren't doing anything about it. we aren't protesting. >> congressman, since we all seem to agree on this issue, what are prospects for getting your bill passed? how do we get your bill passed? >> as you know, we're at the end of session. we'll refile it at the beginning of the next session. in the meantime, we're trying to garner support from our republican colleagues and a lot of democrats that are ready to join us. but so far we have not had one

single republican in the house to express interest, but i'm expecting that to change soon. again, when they look at the significance of this, it would be literally legislative and congressional malpractice not to address this in a bipartisan way. >> all right. just like elijah cummings you think i'm mean but elijah and i worked together on a committee very, very well. >> we sure did. >> how is joe to work with? >> i'm very proud of the things we were able to do together, joe. we can do that today. i'm ready. >> it just takes two people willing to work together and shut out all of the screaming on both sides, right? >> that's right. that's exactly right. that's exactly right. >> elijah, always great to have you on the show. >> thank you very much. >> mika, let him finish.

you're always interrupting. it's sad. anything else to say to us before mika interrupts you again? >> no. i'm looking forward to getting this legislation passed so we can get all of the facts and so they can make recommendationses to how to make sure this does not happen again and does not become normal for our elections. thank you. >> elijah cummings, thank you for being here and thank you more importantly for taking up this important topic. >> we appreciate it. thank you. >> thank you all. >> you're so rude interrupting him all the time. let people finish their sentence. >> i'm having an off day. every time i try to talk, steve rattn rattner interrupting me and mike barnicle and mark halperin. >> how much would you say he weighs? >> 175. >> a hair over 175.

>> your body shaming on the show, that's how far it goes? that's great way. >> it's my weight. >> it's amazing. it's all i think about. >> look at that outfit. what is that? what are you wearing today? >> nobody knows what you're talking about. >> what are you wearing today? >> i'm wearing an nbc news t-shirt. >> you didn't have to show us that. >> thank you. wow. >> concerns from fiscal conservatives that trump's fiscal proposals could blow up the economy. we're back in a moment.

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he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. >> any reductions we have in upper income taxes will be offset by less deductions so there will be no tax, absolute tax cut for the upper class. there will be a big tax cut for the middle class but any tax

cuts we have for the upper class will be offset by less deductions that pay for it. >> steve rattner has his charts and is looking into it. but wait. but wait. there's more. we're also joined by republican congressman matt salmon of arizona. he's going to chime in too. >> how are we doing? >> my last day voting. >> wow. that's kind of cool. >> it is kind of cool. i have some bittersweet feelings but mostly sweet. >> the bitter stuff was when we worked together. he's gotten past that. >> those were the days. those were the glory days. >> i remember we were going after newt gingrich one time and said they would strip all of the money from my military bases in my district. i'm walking back from the house. i'm walking across the street with matt. i feel so bad. i'm fighting it. i'm letting people down in my

district. matt says, okay, joe, they should have known better. they should never have sent you up here in the first place. thanks for making me feel better, matt. we got all of the money back. >> let's start with the charts. >> matt, we're concerned -- you're concerned as well, i'm going to ask him a question. he's right there in the box. let me ask him a question. obviously we're concerned. are there people up there that are going to -- is paul ryan going to say you can't cut taxes and raise defense spending and raise domestic spending, and raise transportation spending and not touch sbienmenentitleme the same time? >> if the republicans here don't maintain their vigilance to shrink the deficit and pay down the debt, if they don't do that, they're going to have no credibility going forward. look, i remember when i left

congress the first time and a member of leadership who you and i were actually close friends with was in arizona and we were golfing and they just passed the leave no child behind act. i remember saying to him, how could you guys pass such a piece of garbage and he made the comment to me if this had been bill clinton's education initiative, it would have been dead on arrival. it's time for people regardless of who they are, republicans, democrats, to actually have the credibility to fight for the things that they believe in even when our guys in the white house. >> matt, when you and i first got to congress, the national debt was $4 trillion. >> now it's 22 trillion. >> i refuse to vote to increase to raise the debt ceiling then. we were 20 trillion now. >> with that lead in, going back to the beginning of this block, you heard steve mnuchin, treasury secretary nominee say on average rich people are not going to get a net tax increase. that's actually directly

contradicted by donald trump's plan that he published on his website which shows that if you were in the top .1% of americans which are people that have an average income of about $19 million, you are going to a $1 million tax cut. if you're in the top 1%, you're going to get a $214,000 average tax cut. but if you're in the middle class, with an average income of say $50,000, you get a $1,000 tax cut. we're talking about a tax cut of about $1.2 trillion for individuals plus another $4 trillion of tax cuts for business. and that is going to get to my deficit point. but before we do the deficit, let's talk about defense spending. you heard donald trump talk about how he wants to increase defense spending. defense spending did go down a bit in the last few years because of the sequestration process by which we were trying to cut spending. defense spending even as we sit here today is actually just about at the same place it was after the reagan build-up in the

1980s when you adjust for inflation. >> $550? >> on an inflation adjusted basis, yes. we have a plan to grow that to $566 gradually. the point is trump wants to take defense spending above where it was during the reagan years when you adjust for inflation. i'm not saying it's right or wrong. but if you look at the last chart, to your point -- >> let me help you there, it's wrong. go ahead. >> if you look at the last chart, you can see what happens to the deficit and the debt. right now, we're sitting right about here in terms of our debt to gdp raceio at about 70%. under current law, it would go to 86%. under the trump plan because of everything you said, that he's not cut nothing titlements, cuttinot cutting defense, it would go to 105%. we would have $4 trillion more, $32 trillion of debt under this

plan. >> we asked congress about the same time when we left and george w. bush came in, there was $155 billion surplus. eight years laternder republican rule, there was a trillion dollar deficit. the national debt doubled from $5.6 trillion to $11.5 trillion. are we going to see the same thing happen again? or will paul ryan and the republican leadership make sure that we actually pay as we go? >> you know, if they don't, joe, i think they're going to be out on their ear in a couple years. people don't have any tolerance for this. i think on both sides of the aisle, people expect washington to operate differently. that's what motivated me to come back, was the deficit. and if they're not concerned about that, then i think they're going to be out on their ear. the fact is that if you don't touch entitlements, you can't get there. i have been saying that in every

election and re-election as i have come back to congress. if you don't deal with entitlement spending, number one, it's going to be cataclysmic by the time you get around to it in ten years and the solutions are going to be so painful, there will be a major upheaval in our society. you have to start now. and dealing with it. i hope that that's something that republicans do. the other thing, though, is on all of these things that are being talked about, you've got to pay as you go and not with phony pay-fors. if you don't do that, i think republicans will be very hypocritical. there are a lot of republicans who will be speaking loudly like you and i did. they will. whether it's enough to make a dirchls, we'll see. i totally agree with you about the bush administration, took us back into deficit spending. obama took us into hyperdrive. cannot continue to do that. >> you had bush that doubled it from $5 to $10. obama who doubled it from $10 to $20. it's hard to see how it doesn't

double again from $20 to $40 or $20 to $30. >> how much of the deficit reduction achieved under bill clinton was owing to the growth of entitlement programs? >> i don't know what the answer to that is. much of what happened during the bill clinton years, which was a really robust economy, in fact, i think, joe, you would probably agree with me. i think we practice some restraint, but a lot of the fact that we got to a balanced budget and a surplus by the time you and i left was because of a really robust economy. >> hold on. i'm sorry. you go first. >> i was just making a factual comment. also, he increased taxes. >> you have three things happening that don't happen anymore. you had george bush raising taxes in 1991, something i was against. bill clinton raising taxes in 1993, something that i was against. then matt, you had us cutting

spending at every turn. >> right. >> in fact, so much so that there was a government shutdown. >> not entitlements. >> you had that going. then you add on top of that -- actually, you know, yes, entitlements. there were a lot of people who didn't get re-elected in 1996 because we cut the rate of increase for medicare spending. bill clinton went around lying through his teeth, saying republicans, they're cutting medicare to pay for tax cuts for the rich. and we all laughed because it was such a lie. we couldn't believe people would be stupid enough to believe it. they believed it. so you look at the entitlement reform, you look at the two tax increases. you look at the spending cuts that we did for five years. and then add on top of that a robust economy. you actually had washington making some really tough choices. which they didn't under bush, didn't under obama and doesn't look like they're going to now. >> seriously, with the entitlements, with social security and with medicare, i think you have to look at raiding the retirement age.

lifting the cap on what we pay on fica. and means testing on medicare. those are all tough decisions. if we don't do it now, it's going to be 20 times more painful in ten years when they finally get around to it. >> matt is a conservative guy from arizona. you're a liberal guy from, what, paris? and you agree. >> i totally agree. >> fix the debt. >> fix the debt. >> exactly. >> congressman matt salmon, thank very much. >> thank you, matthew. >> good luck with your final votes today. still ahead this morning, donald trump is quickly filling up key roles in his administration. a controversial figure to head the epa. a pro wrestling magnate to lead the small business administration. a former marine general for dhs. >> this is a long wind-up. >> and the ambassador to china. we'll break down trump's latest picks could mean for his presidency next on "morning

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they are the natural borns enemy of the way things are. yes, ideas are scary, and messy and fragile. but under the proper care, they become something beautiful. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, decemberateth,ate:00 a.m. on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. out west. do you think this hour i will speak without somebody actually talking over me, and not you? >> okay, who's there? interrupting cow who? with us, we have retrn columnist and msnbc contributor mike barnicle. manager editor of bloomberg

politics, mark halperin, and former treasury official steve rattner. i'm going to do the news. >> before you do the news -- >> please let me. >> i want to talk for a second. i have been shocked, mark halperin. the last couple days, especially, not shocked, but very surprised. you know, we thought that donald trump could be very erratic in the selections he made. we yojoked in the summer he wou be naming a lot of his golf course managers to run agencies. actually, he is appointing the most consistently idealogically conservative, rigid cabinet that i can think of in my lifetime other than ronald reagan. and there is an idealogical consistency there that really does suggest that mike pence is having a heavy hand in this. and you know, you heard people

say listen to what donald trump says. but watch what mike pence does. i'm not saying mike pence is this or that. >> puppet master. >> because he's not. donald trump makes these decisions. but donald trump was not this idealogically rigid in the campaign. every single pick that comes out, all the never trumpers are like, yay. jeb bush, he's not just putting out a selection that jeb bush is saying this is great. i guess i'm so surprised this is so traditionally right-wing republican, that every one of these selections could have been made by ted cruz. >> moments ago, they announced officially that the attorney general of oklahoma, mr. pruitt, is going to be nominated to be head of epa. and jeff sessions. those two alone, you know, not just ted cruz. they are as conservative idealogically conservative choices as possible you could

make. own the other hand, he's now for homeland security, for pentagon, nominated people who could have been nominated by literally anyone in either party. >> but he's got three generals. three generals and lot of -- a lot of ideologues. >> i think you could make an argument this is more conservative than reagan's cabinet. there's not a jim baker, don regan, people who are more moderate. these are people who are really -- the headline in "the washington post" today that this new nominee is suing the epa, and it's now going to be in charge of it. >> thinking about james watt, obviously, very rigidly conservative. also, ed meese caught a lot of guff. but you are right. you did have the james bakers in there and the schultzs. >> i'm not sure mees was more conservative than jeff sessions. >> definitely not. >> let's put it this way. this will be the most conservative republican cabinet since herbert hoover in 1928 if

all these go through. again, my point is that i don't think any of us saw this coming, that he would be this rigidly conservative in his selections. >> well, carrying out the policy is going to be the interesting aspect of the appointments. you have two blocks here, as mark pointed out. the three generals who have been appointed could have been appointed by hillary clinton or anybody else. >> not flynn. >> well, no. >> because flynn was appointed by barack obama. >> madison kelly could have been appointed by hillary clinton. then justice, health, enlication, epa, housing. extremely conservative. >> extremely conservative. >> yeah. >> and people whose identity with and celebrity within the conservative movement is massive -- >> price. price at hhs. massive. devos at education, massive. go down the list. >> these are people who could go to c-pac or heritage foundation

and be treated like heroes. as you said, no would could imagine that any of the 16 republicans running for president would have picked this kind of list, let alone someone who we routinely say is the least idealogical president that's been elected in years. >> might be a democrat. >> certainly the most idealogically unmoored. a guy who's been a democrat his whole life. i guess that's why i'm so surprised. now, the republican base, they have to be in absolute ecstasy right now. all the never trumpers have to be absolutely delighted at every one of these selections. but it's still -- yesterday, very surprised it just keeps coming. >> he didn't listen to al gore. >> al gore, leo dicaprio, rahm emanuel. the cognitive disnnls of nominating people like this and taking meetings during the transition with those kinds -- >> i guess the question is, mika, ishis -- and we'll see.

>> depressing? >> we'll see over time. is this a tip of the hat to the republican base to say, come on, let's get together? then will he be like barack obama and not listen to his cabinet officers. barack obama basically didn't listen to anybody. he didn't listen to his secretary of state. he didn't listen to, you know, his u.n. ambassador. he didn't listen to susan rice. you know, he was locked up with a couple people in the white house. and all these other people were irrelevant. i guess we'll see if trump is sort of tipping the hat to the right wing and then he does it all on his own or not. >> well, i guess you could argue if you have an open mind, steve, that he wants to be schalged. but go ahead. >> i think what you're going to find is that donald trump's interest in the details of policy is very limited. he's sort of a big picture guy. he likes some of the big picture aspects of being president, and i think when you get down to debating whether the tax rate should be 36% or 33% or this or

that, it's going be either mike pence or perhaps even paul ryan and people on the hill who make those ultimate decisions. i don't think he's going to sit around in meetings. >> and in that instance, he is far less like barack obama and much more like ronald reagan. the only way they got reagan moving in the 1986 reform, tax reform bill, the massive tax reform bill, is they went to him and told him a story and said, hey, mr. president, do you know that your secretary has a higher tax rate than exxon? or maybe it was g.e., i don't know at the time. it was probably g.e. >> i don't think it was g.e. >> but you're right. >> that's how reagan was drawn in. but the details, no. so i gss in that point, you do suggest that all of these very conservative people are going to have a disproportionate impact on policy.

>> pruitt and devos and sessions, these are not people coming to be figureheads. these are not people coming to say i'm just going to sit -- >> what about price? >> price as well. they want to fundamentally change from barack obama's government to a much more conservative government. >> the one place where trump has drawn a line, and we'll see if he stricks to it, he said we're not going to touch social security, not going to touch medicare and the entitlements programs. he has a lot of people now on his team who want to touch those. >> touch them for future retirees. >> the confirmation hearings, a couple are going to be very, very interesting, especially the price confirmation. >> one of the things, all these nominees, if you're elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, which ones do you go after? >> all of them. >> they can't. they can't filibuster everybody. >> they can go after them. thanks to the nuclear option, it's a 51-vote decision. >> that the democrats employed. >> excuse me? >> that the democrats employed. >> exactly, and harry reid had

an article saying that's a good idea. >> there's no bandwidth to do research and mount campaigns and try to top them all. >> politically, you go after every one of them. mika is banging her foot now. she really wants to read the news. >> because we're talking about all these options and choices that perhaps we might want to take a look at them. scott pruitt is trump's choice to head the environmental protection agency. pruitt is the attorney general in oklahoma. where he's an ally of the state's powerful energy industry. he's joined in lawsuits with other states suing the agency he is set to lead. seeking to overturn environmental regulations. he's also publicly doubted the scientific consensus on climate change. in may, he co-authored an article saying the debate is, quote, far from settled. scientists continue to disagree about the degree and the extent of global warming and its connection to the actions of mankind. it's not good.

>> is that the case? let's stop there. is that the case? >> no, it's not the case. >> i don't think it's the case. >> i don't think there's any question that there's climate change. and that humans -- this is a fact check. and that humans actually have an impact on climate change. i think even donald trump is open to that. >> i know. >> you have to deal with the facts as they are, not as you wish they were. the facts are very clear. you just talked about how it was the warmest fall on record. i forget the exact numbers, but some high percentage of the hottest years in history have been in the last three to five years. >> yeah. just days ago, trump took a surprise meeting with former vice president al gore. a leading voice on reducing carbon emissions, and in response to pruitt's rumored selection, former adviser to president obama david axelrod said, whatever al gore said, donald trump apparently didn't get it. but jeb bush praised the choice via twitter. >> can't imagine a better pick than my friend scott pruitt to

reform epa. mark halperin, jeb bush was known as a fairly green -- >> right. >> -- republican governor. so that's interesting. what he says also, there has been a belief among conservatives and certainly a lot of business people that the epa over the past eight years has been wildly out of control. and there have been instances that we can all bring up where they have been out of control. >> talk to anybody in energy, mining, any industry touched by epa, and they would say the epa for almost eight years has been out of control. the challenge for trump is to balance two things, which is let's have a really strong economy, a thriving energy sector, mining, all these things that america has great resources, and let's deal with what almost every scientist will tell you, human behavior causes global warming. it's possible to do both. his picks, though, are swinging the pendulum really far in the other direction. >> he really does need to make a

statement like he made to "the new york times," being open to what the reality is. that there is such a thing as climate change and humans have -- and he believes it. i don't know that. i don't know that from talking to dond trump, but i know, i just know the guy has to believe it. he is not sticking his head in the stand. and he doesn't have a reason -- an idealogical reason to not believe that. that's what's disappointing here. we'll see what happens with the selection. >> i think he probably does believe it, but he's going to have a heck of a time with mr. pruitt because they're going to be at loggerheads. he's going to have to get involved in every issue in a way that may not be what he wants to do, otherwise, pruitt is going to go in a whole different direction with the epa. >> environment is one of these issues the american people really don't want to talk about.

they just don't. and it's always at the bottom of the polls, but i tell you what. when you push too hard in one direction, as a lot of americans thought al gore did in 2005-2006. americans respond negatively that way. but this, and i saw this as a right-wing conservative congressman. you push too far in the other direction, they come at you. and you know, i was always very conservative fiscally, but also pretty green. certainly greener than anybody -- >> you have to be. >> -- this side of california or south of new york city new york, as a republican, and it served me well because conservatives -- i tell you what, people in wisconsin, people in pennsylvania, people in ohio, they care about air quality. they care about water quality. i know in my district, they wanted to make sure that they could take their children out fishing when they were 5 years old, just like their fathers had taken them out when they were 5 years old, just like their

grandfathers had taken their fathers out. there's not balance. and by selecting pruitt for epa, that is basically putting rex tillerson out of the running for secretary of state. you cannot have the selection you just had at epa and then have the guy running exxonmobil for 20 years as your secretary of state. there has to be balance. >> so hard to balance, though, because he's going to withdraw -- it seems obvious from every international agreement, he is not going to put pressure. he's going to try to undermine as many epa regulations as possible. >> who, pruitt? >> pruitt and the president-elect. >> you think they would withdrawal from the paris agreement? >> yeah, how could you pick pruitt and not? >> well, and that's the question. you're donald trump, like donald trump is not going to be going, oh, my god. the former attorney general of oklahoma told me we can't -- >> pruitt told me to do that.

>> nathat's not how he works. i don't see that either. >> i don't know. like i said, he could be like obama. >> disheartening. >> and pretend all his cabinet secretaries are nothing but like potted plants. we never know. i think in some of these cases we hope so, but i think you're right, though. if you have an ideologue running the epa every single day, he's cutting away at regulations that protect water quality. he's cutting away at regulations that protect air quality. >> and working with the republican-led congress. >> that wants to do the same. >> wants to do it and is not going to have oversight hearings on behalf of al gore. >> this is very problematic politically. >> yeah. >> for some of us, it's terrifying. >> i have heard a lot of that. i heard a lot of that. >> terrifying for a lot of people. i'm just saying, and as i remind people all the time, mika and i are employed here to tell people what's coming. i can tell you, these selections

as they're setting up, what they're doing is they're setting up a war, and they're setting up a war with voters in wisconsin, pennsylvania, ohio, and say wait a second, if i wanted to vote for newt gingrich, i would have voted for newt gingrich. if i wanted to vote for ted cruz, i would have voted for ted cruz. i voted for donald trump because i don't want this to look like the republican house. it's looking a lot like the republican house. and i have a lot of friends in the republican house. i'm just saying, in those swing states he won, this is not a pathway to re-election. >> okay. >> what's going to happen when pruitt realizes and is told repeatedly by business people, and it's good for business, being green is good for business? >> it is. it's the new forefront of business. >> i don't think businessmen believe being green is good for business. i think they believe being green is an important part of being a responsible corporate citizen in the modern world and having people feel you're trying to do

the right thing. but there are plenty of businessmen who would love to see the epa regulations relaxed and things like that. >> still ahead on "morning joe," how does the scrutiny donald trump and ronald reagan got from the press in the days after the elections compare? >> plus, the model of a modern general. we're we'll talk about donald trump's pick for the department of homeland security, jon kelly. >> very modern meteorologist. >> sort of, not really. he's like stuck in the '70s. bill karins with a look at the wicked winter system after one of the hottest years on record. >> yeah, a little more into the conversation of why the pruitt appointment is so important going forward. i want to show you two graphs. while we have the new epa head, pruitt, who has been just appointed, this is what's going on. this is why climate scientists are scratching their heads. they're trying to figure out what is happening with the ice. this graph represents the average in november of the ice. you see how the line dips under our banner? that's where we are currently. we had this big drop. this is in the arctic sea.

let me show you what's happening in the antarctic skooe. our planet doesn't warm evenly. it warms more in the poles. we have seen a huge drop in the amount of ice in the north and in the south poles in those seas. that's measured by satellite. then we go to areaser we got done in el nino. now in 2016, these are top five everywhere in yellow. top third warmest, everywhere in orange. this is the average temperature for each state going back about 110 years. we have about five states on pace for the warmest year ever recorded. that's why this appointment of pruitt is so important at this time. and obviously, we'll see what happens going forward with this research. we're still dealing with this huge arctic outbreak across the country. this is what you expect in december. we have another behind it. for the friends on the west coast, still rainy weather in central california with a lot of snow in the next couple days in the days ahead. we'll continue to give you more updates on the winter weather as it moves across the country. more "morning joe" when we come

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i've now gotten to know president obama. i really like him. we have -- i think i can say at least for myself, i can't speak for him, but we have a really good chemistry together. we talk. he loves the country. he wants to do right by the country. and for the country. and i will tell you, we obviously very much disagree on certai policies and certain things, but you know, i really like him as a person. i have asked him what he thinks are the biggest problems of the country, what are some of the greatest assets going forward. and we have a very good dialogue. i take his recommendations very seriously. and there are some people that i will be appointing and in one case have appointed where he thought very highly of that

person. >> yeah. >> all right. relationship between obama and trump. >> let's talk about that for a second. really quickly. one all-star we did not talk about, general kelly. at dhs. i know he's putting a lot of generals in there. this guy, like mattis, is a real winner. >> solid appointment. highly credentialed. worked for general mattis in iraq, in the command staff just under general mattis in iraq. lost his son, lieutenant robert kelley, in afghanistan, in 2010. knows, understands the concept of loss. he's the kind of man you would put your trust in to do the job that he's been given. you put your trust in him for almost anything. >> extraordinary, the profiles written about him and even the advice he gave him son in one profile, saying do not allow your fellow marines to hate the enemy. do not allow them to celebrate

killing a member of the taliban. understand the taliban have their jobs. we have our jobs. do not dehumanize the enemy, and then after his son died, what he did in reaching out to other troops and other families. pretty extraordinary. >> another pick that jeb bush praised. >> yeah. another. jeb is just -- you know what? jeb is checking them all off. every single one. >> look at this one. >> bay, jeb, this is the most energy jeb has shown. high-energy jeb on the tweets with all these selections. now high-energy jeb. every five minutes, i like that one too. >> he's going to review "saturday night live" this week, i'm told. >> general kelly. he likes general kelly. can't imagine a better pick than my friend, scott pruitt. good pick for education. there you go. >> cabinet that looks like jeb bush's america. >> mika, what do you make of donald trump continuing to

praise barack obama? barack obama, again, showing a lot of grace. even though valerie jarrett said she was sick for a week after he was elected. >> she's being helpful, too. she is telling kellyanne conway to stay in there and work. good people to help. actuly, president obama is setting a standard that i wish leading democrats would follow. i really do. >> a gracious man. and he was treated in the incoming obama administration was treating so well by george w. bush's outgoing administration, that he's going to do the same thing. >> he understands the importance of a good transition, a graceful transition. i know democrats who are still literally seething. it's not going to help them. >> although if you read david remnick's piece in the new yorker where he spent a lot of time with obama. obama wouldn't talk on the record about what he thought about trump, but you read between the lines and sources and whatever, i think there is a -- i think obama still has a lot of concerns about trump's

depth of knowledge. >> first, it's the presidents' club. it's an exclusive club. the other thing is he's lobbying him hard on things like climate and health care to try to preserve as much as he can. >> coming up on "morning joe," donald trump supporters are much more bullish on the year to come financially than clinton supporters. 55% of trump backers say they expect 2017 to be better financially. just 25% of clinton supporters agree. we'll look at the markets charging ahead to the new highs just ahead. [engine revving] ♪ ♪

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you talk about human rights abusers in china. much could be said about russia as well. >> oh, baloney. where do you come from? >> i come from the former soviet union. that's where i came from. i came here as a political refugee. that's where i came from. >> what country did you say? >> from the former soviet union. >> oh, that's good. then the audience knows you're biased. >> i'm biased because i'm an american citizen born in a foreign country? >> yeah, when you start saying russia should be -- you're trying -- do you know there have been no political reforms in china? none? >> i'm not advocating that china be our best friend. i'm talking to you about russia

right nu. >> you just said that russia and china are the same. i'm sorry, they are not. >> i said they're both human rights abusers. how am i wrong? >> in china, they don't have an opposition party. >> russians have been accused of murdering journ l sglrbz okay, look, i'll let the public decide on the last comment where you're coming from. the bottom line is what's good for america is to prioritize as i did when i worked with ronald reagan. i wrote most of his speeches on this issue. >> what would ronald reagan think about your thoughts on vladimir putin. >> he was the one who reached out to gorbachev. >> are you comparing gorbachev to putin? >> absolutely i am. you know why? they're both leader of a very powerful country that we need to be friends with if we're going to have peace in the world. >> don't know where to begin. you actually had a guy that i have known -- >> wow. >> and respected for long time. >> we was very wary of russia.

>> until he thought he might get a job involving russia. he just ridiculed someone for being a political refugee from the soviet union. ansaid the fact that she and her parents fled the soviet union disqualified her. >> yeah. >> i'm sorry, i think that actually makes her more qualified, just like dr dr. brzezinski was more qualified, fleeing nazis and fleeing the russians. >> the key word the congressman used, and bianna was great in that interview, was his use of the wo bias. this is the new playbook for a lot of people in politics on both sides of the aisle, but more republicans than democrats, media bias. you are biased. >> what did he say that on? mark halperin, he said it on her not charge but her giving -- laying out the facts that vladimir putin has assassinated journalists with whom he

disagrees. >> i would love to sit there and watch that line by line and see where he stands, because almost everything he said was outrageous and wrong. >> and a bad sign, as you point out. >> to sugar coat putin, i mean, i don't get it. from a guy who was one of the ultimate cold warriors is now deciding he wants to sugar coat russian behavior. >> let's bring in someone who knows something about fighting the former soviet union because he's traced the history of ronald reagan doing that. it's of course, renowned reagan biographer craig shirley. his latest book reagan rising will be released next year, and on set, the rage, steve kornacki. >> he sprinted to the set. >> so craig, you and i know dana. an old cold warrior. a guy we have long respected. what's going on with him ridiculing former soviet -- well, soviet refugees? >> i don't think it's just dana, joe. by the way, good morning. i think that we may be

witnessing the party's going through an evolutionary stage. you know, the parties have switched positions many times on trade, on tax cuts, on war, on peace, on borders, on many, many issues. donald trump may be forcing in many ways the party to change positions on a number of issues, including russia, trade -- >> why can't we say -- ronald reagan would be aghast that somebody like dana is suggesting that vladimir putin has a sterling human rights record and hasn't actually assassinated journalists? >> i think you're right. reagan would be aghast. look, he said trust but verify. he was -- his number one mission always was the destruction of the soviet union. he had great regard for the russian people themselves and he made -- he was advised early on don't insult the russian people, but he was opposed to oligarchs, opposed to communism.

opposed to tollitarianism. he made it clear throughout his eight years as president that he opposed all concentrations of power. >> let me ask you really quickly, craig, also, to follow up yesterday, a huge day, us remembering pearl harbor. you have written some extraordinary works on pearl harbor. talk about pearl harbor. what did we all miss yesterday that you could add for us? >> i guess in the larger regard, joe, is that pearl harbor is the linchpin of history because everything changes. our lives, our world, how we regard the world, women in the workplace, minority rights, labor, our internationalism. we have forever become an internationalist country after december 7th, 1941. we never revert back behind two

giant oceans as we did after the spanish-american war and the intervening time between world war i and world war ii. our whole outlook changed. we rejected the league of nations after world war i, but we embraced the united nations after world war ii. everything, it is the linchpin of history because the changes everything. you know, there might never have been a dwight eisenhower presidency, a john kennedy presidency, or a ronald reagan presidency or going to the moon without pearl harbor. >> unbelievable. steve kornacki, let's talk quickly about the president-elect. a lot of vote recounts. a lot of news coming in and out. where do we stand right now? >> where we stand is i think california now has finally finished after three, four weeks. they have all the votes counted out there. here's the stat for you. it looks like hillary clinton will finish with more popular votes in the 2016 election than barack obama got in 2012. so that gap is going to approach 2.8 million. >> my goodness. >> by contrast, if you think of the last time we had the split back in 2000, it was about half

a million, about 500,000. she's going to win by almost six times the margin in the popular vote than al gore did back in 2000. yet, donald trump will finish with over 300 electoral votes. we said during this campaign, every time i was on the set, we said narrow path for donald trump. that's what it was. he's going to lose the popular vote by over 3 million, but he found just the right combination. >> he won new hampshire. >> she won new hampshire. >> what happened with wisconsin, is that -- >> it looks like they're still now a lawsuit pending in michigan trying to get the recount started there again. it looks like the stein campaign has run out of in pennsylvania and still ongoing in wisconsin. nothing is going to change in those states. 306 elector votes. donald trump will get the most electoral votes for any republican candidate for president since all the way back in 1988, and he'll lose the popular vote by about 2.8 million. >> wow. >> when is jill stein going to

go home? >> we can't change the system that we're stuck with. >> know that. >> she bought herself at least in terms of having money, relevance. >> how much of her popular vote lead is based on california? >> clinton's? i think you could take her entire lead from california. >> really? >> yeah. the margin of error is well over 3 million. her national popular vote margin is 2.8 million. from that state. >> go ahead. >> you've got basically the democrats, and they're a coastal party. west coast. >> absolutely. the northeast, california, oregon, washington. she's going to win, i think the total, i haven't seen the exact number when you look at counties, 3100 counties in the country. i think she wins 450. >> craig, we have been talking this morning about donald trump's cabinet. very surprising. a lot of the never trumpers, jeb bush, others that were opposed to donald trump from the beginning, are coming out praising some of his cabinet selections. i, for one, am surprised by how

idealogically conservative most of these cabinet picks are. what has been your reaction to what you have seen in this transition? >> i agree with you, joe. i think it's been by and large, they have been pretty good picks. you need people who understand the establishment and understand the bure accuracy in order to change the bure ocrea bureaucra. he can't bring in a bunch of neophytes. we have had presidents in the past who have brought in neophyteand gotten eaten up by washington and the establishment. poor burt lanls who was in over his head when he came in with a carter. was eating up, very unfairly, too, as i might add. you have to be careful. for people to change bureaucracy, they need to understand the bureaucracy. >> yeah. all right. >> craig shirley, thank you very much. steve kornacki -- >> by the way, steve kornacki, really quickly. a lot of people saying, oh, the electors, they should not vote for trump. any significant movement?

>> one this week, "the new york times" op-ed. this happens. the faithless elector. i remember in 1988, dukakis got 112. one of his electors voted for lloyd bentsen. this is like the republican convention. thed delegates can change the rules. this is like episode 23 and here's the rarely used procedure. doesn't happen. >> steve kornacki, thank you very much. >> wait for episode 24. >> still ahead, donald trump tapped linda mcmahon to lead the small business administration. if you think it's going to be tough, let's just say she's had more demanding jobs. >> linda mcmahon. and i forgot to say, thank you. >> is that her? >> no, come on. that wasn't her. >> she's amazing. we'll be right back.

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so mika, last night, you had the honor of actually speaking before 200 women. screaming women. >> they were so nice. i don't think they were screaming. they were actually really, really nice. we laughed a lot. sometimes at your expense. >> of course. >> all members of the new york women and communications n network. it was their cocktail and conversations event, entitled knowing your value. hosted by bloomberg. it was awesome. jackie kelly invited me. i love her. she is the best. we talked about the role of women in the workplace, salary gap, communicating effectively. a really fun night. >> did you talk about barnicle and me? >> we talked about you. and all your f-bombs. >> no, you did not. >> do you think the salary gap will ever be closed? >> i do. i think we're going to exceed expectations and beat you all. >> i think women are taking over

the world. >> not only is it highly inequitable. it's highly frustrated. you hear stories from young women, middle aged women in corporations that they can not get on the level with men in terms of salary. >> it's interesting, your book, just ask for more. you deserve more. having that hammered into our brains over and over, and i think that women like sheryl sandberg, mika, different women have played such a huge role in kind of showing the way for younger women, because i know at the start of my career, i'm very -- it's dicy negotiating. so it is good to keep messaging that for all women. >> just so you know, barnicle gets plus 20%. >> or joe. >> smart girl. >> proof of purchase seals from kellogg's. >> sara eisen, it seems the stock rally continues. >> oh, yes. this record-setting rally does continue. another nearly 300-point surge in the dow yesterday.

marking its 12th record close just since the election. it really has been an extraordinary post-election rally. there are winners and losers, but one group of winners i wanted to highlight, just to show you the change in attitudes about the markets and the overall economy. transportation stocks, we're talking airlines and shipping companies and railroads, they tend to track economic activity during boom times. more transportation of various things. well, that group reached a record high for the first time in two years. and the feeling there is that we could finally come out of this 2% growth trap that the economy has been in over the last few years in this sort of mild but uneven recovery based on some of the republican policies that are being discussed. i did want to mention an important loser, though. drug stocks yesterday taking it on the chin. this after the president-elect told "time" magazine in his person of the year interview that he is going to tackle high

drug costs. and that's something we heard a lot out of then-candidate hillary clinton, which spooked the drug sector. since the election, that sector had actually done quite well on hopes that trump wouldn't be doing anything. but this is clearly a populist message that he wants to take down the sky-high drug costs. you saw names like pfizer and the big drug makers allet slammed on that. one other winner in the session, nothing to do with the election. lululemon just posted a tremendous quarter. turns out those bras and yoga pants and men's pants are selling like crazy. they have high growth during black friday and cyber monday. that stock could open up double digits. >> sara eisen, thank you. >> lululemon. >> great sweat pants. for full figured gals like you and me. >> are you being pervy? >> i have a pair. >> i thought you were talking about the see-through pants. >> also, if you look at what halperin is wearing, lululemon

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so mika, let me ask you. when i say lady gaga, who do you think of? >> trump? >> of course. >> i don't need lady gaga, i don't need beyonce, right? >> similarities. mark halperin has them. >> he does. daniel heninger writes this. donald trump is lady gaga, he is a performance artist. he is challenging what we think is normal, first for the presidential campaign and now for the presidency. lady gaga would talk about them in an interview, they would say this is too racy, too dance-oriented, too underground. it's not marketable. that's what people said about "morning joe" at the beginning. i would say, my name is lady gaga, i have been on the music scene for years. many willsie we can't have a

performance artist as president of the united states. it's irrelevant no in four years it may be possible to say that making a performance artist president is a mistake, but that will only be true if he fa fails. if the trump method succeeds, it will be important to understa his art from the start. >> one of the best things anyone has written about trump in the last month. >> really? tell me why. >> because he's not being close-minded about whether trump could succeed or fail. he's analyzing the way trump operates and putting it in a context of by comparing him to lady gaga, someone who is not going to do things the old way but do things his way. a way that has worked for him in everything he's done for decades. right to be skeptical that it's the right thing for the presidency, but this is the kind of president he's going to be. a performance artist, lady gaga-like. >> ronald reagan, mocked by everybody. pat brown, funneled money to his -- to reagan in the primary.

reagan crushed him in '66 in california. the carter white house celebrated when he got elected. republican nominee. reagan crushed carter. u see the same thing happening thisast time as far as, you know -- >> well, the skill, the skill of the heninger piece is it gets to part of the core of president-elect trump's performance thus far. it's a show. and the best of shows attract an audience every day because you wonder what's going to happen today. >> what's next. >> joining us from capitol hill, republican congressman steve king of iowa. good to have you on the show. >> a performance artist as well. you should see what he can do with spoons and three plates. just joking, steve. we want to know, since your governor is going to china, are you going to the governor's mansion? >> i was asked that kwez yesterday as soon as the news popped out. i said it piqued my interest.

i couldn't make an announcement that that's what i intend to do. the lieutenant governor, kim reynolds, has done a wonderful job. i wouldn't want to foreclose options, but i wouldn't want to send a message that i have a big campaign team working it. >> so keeping your options open. >> yes. >> all right. what do you think of donald trump's picks so far? >> i think he's put together a terrific cabinet. and the appointments that don't necessarily fit as cabinet members. it's terrific. he's but leaders there, bold, strong leaders. general mattis at dod really sends a good message. i think the best appointment of all, i should say nomination of all, is jeff sessions for attorney general. that is the one that will have the best, the most effective, short, mid, and long-term impact on our government, on our rule of law, and our constitution. that's the one i'm completely exhilarated about, jeff sessions. >> i know you're a huge fan of mad libs, so fill in the blank

here. if donald trump selected mitt romney as his nominee for secretary of state, i would feel blank. >> oh, see, i have to censor the first thought in my mind and go on to the next one. >> go with your first thought. >> we'll take the first. we have a seven-second delay. >> i would feel like we missed a tremendous opportunity to place john bolton there, who has the best, the deepest, the most intricate understanding of the geopolitical chess game going on. >> doesn't john bolton still think iraq was the right thing to do? >> well, i don't know about that. but i do think john bolton sees the need and the necessity to defeat the ideology of radical islamic jihad, and he knows how do do that. cyber warfare, financial war fp fare, build alliances in the middle east, expand our human intelligence that's there and work with the locals, militias

such as the kurds, in order to let the people that risk their blood that will be governing that region. >> you have been a big supporter of building a wall on the southern border with mexico, and you twreeted a design of the wall. how do you see this process going forward? >> well, i think now that we have the nomination of general john kelly to head up department of homeland security, i think that's terrific. he's a doer. he's a command general. i first met him in a comb zone in ramadi some years ago during the surge. i saw what they had done in rumommy. pretty sure when he gives orders, things happen. things we need to do in congress are take a look at the resources we need and take a look at the potential authorization we may have to pass. and i'm just standing here in the middle of all the people that are the right players to move them in place, and i expect i'm probably one of them. i think we'll sit down and have that plan and write a bill and set up the appropriations

necessary so they can go to work on this right away. and i do want to use my 30-plus years of construction experience. we don't have to use my design, but it's something to compete against. and i know the people in this congress expect to put the resources into the wall and get a bill. >> steve king, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. >> that does it for us this morning. >> all right. >> thanks. >> thank you so much. stephanie, take it away. >> breaking bad, i don't think so. i'm stephanie ruhle. we have breaking news to cover. overnight, donald trump picking a fight. blasting a union boss who claims trump didn't save as many jobs at the carrier plant as he claimed. that union boss responding overnight to msnbc. >> on my numbers, i'm correct. and he's wrong. >> a controversial pick. trump's nominee for the environmental protection agency, someone who has been fiercely