i'm steve kornacki here in new york. before we go, a quick note. bernie sanders will be in trump country, they're calling it, 8:00 eastern here on msnbc. "mtp daily" starts right now. it's thursday. donald trump seems to govern from the right. or is he? tonight, persuading donald trump. do you do it with force or flattery? how to influence a president trump style. plus, is there growing concern among milt taerthe milit about trump's pick for national security adviser. >> i think we need to look at what went on between john glenn and his son. and remembering john glenn, the first man to orbit the earth and a four-term u.s. senator

from the most important swing state in the country. >> i'm very high on this country and what it can do, what it can stand for, even with its problems now. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. good evening, i'm chuck todd here in washington and welcome to "mtp daily." in just a moment we're going to pay tribute to an american hero, an aviation icon and u.s. senator. john glenn, who passed away today at the age of 95, is a true icon of american history in so many ways. glenn's decades of service to this country took him around the world as a marine fighter pilot, took him around this planet in space. first man to orbit the earth, first american to do so, excuse me. and, of course, to washington as a senator representing the great state of ohio, his home state. so you won't want to miss our remembrances of him later in the show.

but we're going to begin tonight with the presidential transition and a question of influence. politics is war. and right now everyone from world leaders to local unions seems to be probing trump for weakness and trying to figure out, one, how is he going to govern? two, what influences him? and three, how do you manage, or dairy say, coax or manipulate him to your position? so pay attention, because there are some answers to all of these questions in trump's cabinet. trump didn't camp, for instance, like a sort of post-bush 43 conservative aud audiolog. but his cabinet is starting to look like much of it was hand-picked by a ted cruz type president, or more likely, mike pence. bottom line, this is a cabinet that is reflective of a republican party conservative movement of the post bush era pre-trump. scott pruitt doesn't believe he

should be in that position. and they border on demeanted, according to another one. hhs tom price, house conservative who has been trying to get rid of obamacare for years. hud, then carson, obviously someone who is a small government guy, not one to be in favor of some of the programs hud is known for. how about jeff sessions? he helped write trump's immigration plan. then there is betsy voss, conservative activist, no big fan of public schoolteacher unions and is a big fan of school vouchers. bottom line is you add it all up and it's pretty clear who is guiding, managing and influencing trump, at least in those positions, at least positions on policy. this gets tie bigger question.

how did he do it? how did they do it? how did pence do it and how did he get to trump? we've seen folks try to flatter him. we've seen trump supporters walk what we call the walk of shame to get back into his good graces. think mitt romney and rick perry. we've seen folks try to antagonize him, even the chief who said he lied his butt off to keep jobs from going to mexico. at a ti katie tur has been covering trump since day one. she's in des moines where trump will continue his thank you tour. katie, what have you seen in your 18 months of covering him? what works and what doesn't? >> he does like people who are

lyle to h loyal to him, he does like people who flatter him, but he does not like pushovers. for those who chose nik nikki hailey, considering how she felt about him during the primaries, even though she was critical, she stood up for herself and she was confident in where she stood, and then she spoke to donald trump and he's open to taking people as long as they come to him. on the other side of that, you have up in new hampshire kelly ayotte who waffled back and forth on whether to support trump or not. she didn't show a strong position either way, so she wasn't someone who was taken seriously for a cabinet position. mitt romney. is he someone who donald trump would actually want to have in his folds? romney was critical, not just critical in a professional way, but critical of donald trump's character, critical of mocking him for his businesses and really outspoken, antagonizing him on twitter of all the people who were out there trying to

take trump down in the republican party, mitt romney was at the forefront of it. he was the leader of the never trump movement. so is he able to bury the hatchet with donald trump? that's a big question. and if he goes there hat in hand and says, please, you know, give me a role or here's how i can help you, i'm not entirely sure that donald trump would be open to that given all of the back history they have. he does have a long memory. and he also likes people who are firm in their beliefs. if mitt romney stood his ground a little bit more even during this transition process and had donald trump come to him, maybe that would have been a different story. but trump, as you know, chuck, is measu is mercurial, and if you flatter him, he can change his mind pretty quickly. >> well, katy, we're going more into the trump world.

katy tur covering donald trump in iowa. let's go to deputy secretary of the interior under ronald reagan. mr. barrick, welcome to the show. >> thank you. good to be here. >> there is something i left out and i thought katy tur did a good job of putting this in. one thing donald trump doesn't like is a waffler or a pushover, that he prefers someone he disagrees with if they show strength than somebody when won't express their opinion this front of him. is that a fair statemen >> absolutely. look, i think an ey way to look at it is the similarities to ronald reagan. and ronald reagan, when he came to office, was a bit of an anomaly. he was a californian, everybody hated it. he was an actor, nobody understood it. he went to eureka college, nobody had heard of it. when he made his first picks, people were saying, i wonder

what that's all about, because reagan didn't have the history of being able to adjudicate those kinds of decisions. but he was a very good judge of character. trump is exactly the same way. if you look at a developer or a builder, they have a vision, but they're not really the architect. they don't know how to draw. they're not the plumber, they're not stringing the hardware, they're not the carpenter, they're not laying the concrete. so i think what works with trump is reality. it's not flattery, and it's not being abusive. he's a loyalist but he's a realist. if you look at his choices -- it's very difficult, right, to find a pool of mechanics, of people who can actually work consensus in a conciliatory system. you have to find somebody who has been at the system. and it's not really picking points of view. a cabinet secretary is not dictating his own point of view. >> let me pause you there. it's funny you say that. i was going to ask you this question.

you think this should be viewed as he's hiring executers for his vision, so just because -- i want to take tom price for an example. he's somebody who would like to do a lot more reform to medicare than candidate donald trump said he wanted to do. who should voters believe is in charge of medicare policy, tom price or donald trump? >> congress. you have 535 men and women who are taking a vision, which the president will form for them, and through consensus they're going to come to a conciliatory pattern, and these men and women in the cabinet are going to execute. and they're going to execute through a bureaucracy. so it doesn't happen that way. we don't have a dictatorship. these positions in the cabinet, really, one of the frustrations for business people to go into the cabinet is it doesn't have that kind of power. you have to go to the lowest common denominator. you have to get other secretaries to agree on your points of view. you have to get congress to implement a plan in legislation

and then you have to execute. i think we need to give all these people a chance. it will come to the lowest common denominator. i don't think it will be too far right or too far left. this president will move that aircraft carrier slowly because he's a curator, he's not a steward. you've seen that with carrier and softbank and boeing, some that these people say is he just picking industries or what is he doing? >> what's the worst way to handle donald trump? i'm not saying mitt romney. i don't want to get into conversations. maybe he did actually call you for advice on how to talk to trump. let me ask you this. what's the worst way to handle donald trump if you're trying to persuade him? >> i think the worst way, although, you know, some of the people before him said flattery is the way to go there, i think it's the worst way. if i was advising mitt romney who is very capable and very confident and could have been a great pick. i would go in and say, number one, it is war.

what i said about you i meant at the time. it wasn't that i didn't mean it. i'm sorry that it happened now. i'm sorry because i would really like this job. not because i thought anything other than you, and by the way, you need me because i can tie together for you pieces of a constituency that you don't have. but it's not that i love you, donald trump. >> go to the pragmatist, the realist and the pragmatist of him. >> exactly. >> interesting. tom barrick, long-time friend. you're heading up the inaugural committee with some other folks. i appreciate you taking some time. >> i'm a party planner in chief. >> well, plan a big one. katie packer, an msnbc contribut contributor. she worked in one of the many superpacs of the campaign. and john stanton. d.c. bureau chief for buzz. you're getting back to on the

ground reporting. screw management. katie packer, i'm going to start with you. nobody screams never trump like katie packer. >> he's our president now. >> what do you make of what we're seeing here and the different ways people are trying to get back into trump's good grasz? -- graces? >> i do hear all this talk of mitt romney coming in hat in hand. i don't see that. i don't see mitt romney actively lobbying necessarily for this job. he's talking to president-elect trump. he's offering advice and counsel. i'm sure he would be interested in a position like this because he's a guy that would be captivated by that task. but i do think you're seeing these candidates for all of these different offices, you're seeing mike pence and reince priebus' fingerprints allover thi this. i sort of shun the comparisons of reagan and trump, but i think one of the things you can compare is reagan focused on a few things that were really,

really important to him, and he didn't stick his hands in every element of government, and i see this in donald trump. >> you're nod ding on that. >> if you're trying to do business in washington, you try to keep your business and effort off of his gaze. you could probably get a lot done in this town over the next four years. >> stay out of his radar. >> don't get him interested in you. if you can get him angry about the thing that's hurting you, maybe that helps you, or get him super excited about it, but if you can't do any of those two things, stay interested or it could end up hurting you. >> that could be the best advice so far. >> he sort of views himself as the president of brand usa at this point, right? he is the face of it, right, he's going to go out and sell it. to john's point, he's going to

pick places here and there. but he does not view himself as the guy who is the cfo of brand usa. we heard that. that's why paul ryan was able to say, i'm for him under the theory. this guy wants to go out and sell america, we're making america great again, do some high-profile appearances, but he doesn't necessarily want to be the guy in the weeds so you can move a certain agenda that he broadly stamps and puts his name on. i think that's the hope of many within the republican establishment. katie used the word mercurial. maybe today. >> don't focus on the idealogy of some of the these pictures. you had a skeptical gaze, katie, but he is not wrong on cabinet secretaries don't get to make a lot of policy, they implement policy. >> they don't make a lot of big policy. and certainly you're going to see price implementing a plan --

a large plan with regard to health care. but i worked for a former secretary of energy, and there are a hundred decisions every single day that the secretary handles at that level and below. he doesn't go running to the white house every single minute for every single decision. so there are things that are impacted and most conservatives are thrilled by that. people like andy puzder and betsy voss. >> they don't care if trump dumps on them every once in a while, big picture, do they? >> no, not at all. tom barrick is going to go bottom up. who is in charge of the policy? congress. >> i was stunned by that answer. i was just going to say, i was stunned by that answer. >> george w. bush and certainly barack obama is the idea of -- i don't mean this in a pejorative way. the concentration of power not in the white house, not in

congress, the president getting stronger, stronger, stronger. if what tom barrick says is what donald trump believes, the bottoms up congress and then the president is sort of there. that's a different model than we've seen. >> i believe in that only so long as they let him do what he wants. he's going to go to wisconsin and have 60,000 people demanding to get out. >> the guy values unpredictability. i think everybody is figuring it out. we'll see here. this is an interesting discussion. coming up, hillary clinton heads to the hill. we'll have the highlights from her comments at the harry reid portrait unveiling, up ahead. plus, godspeed on glenn. former senator and american hero. stay with us. and at progressive, we let you compare

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this is not exactly the speech of the capitol i hoped to be giving after the election, but after a few weeks of taking selfies in the woods, i thought it would be a good idea to come out. >> that was hillary clinton on capitol hill today. she was in town for senator harry reid's farewell, an official portrait unveiling. but a lighter tone turned serious when she addressed what she called a threat to our democracy. >> the epidemic of malicious fake news and false propaganda that flooded social media over the past year, it's now clear that so-called fake news can have real world consequences. this isn't about politics or partisanship. lives are at risk. it's imperative that leaders in both the private sector and the public sector step up to protect our democracy and innocent lives.

>> by the way, clinton also spoke about john glenn. we'll have that and many more memories of this american hero just ahead. and clearer skin. this is my body of proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis with humira. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain, stop further joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. humira is the number #1 prescribed biologic for psoriatic arthritis. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. want more proof?

ask your rheumatologist about humira. humira. what's your body of proof? welcome back tonight. we're paying tribute to an american legend, former astronaut and former state senator john glenn has died at the age of 95. in 1962, glenn became the first american to orbit the earth. and with that flight found his way into american hearts and dreams. >> i feel fine. capsule is turning around. oh, that view is tremendous. >> everybody on pins and needles on that one. he returned the flight to a hero's welcome. and appeared on "meet the press" for the first time to share his experience. >> i can't even begin to tell you what we'll run into or what we'll benefit, but i think man's

participation in this guarantees bun thi one thing. if we can perceive them, analyze them, bring them to our experiences here, this is one thing man brings to the program. he can see things that now are completely unforeseen or unknown. this is perhaps going to be the biggest advantage of having a man in the space program, are things we don't even foresee right now. >> how about that. glenn left nasa and the marine corps in the late '60s before entering politics in the early '70s to represent his beloved ohio. in 1970 he ran successfully for the u.s. senate but lost in the democratic primary to howard metzenbaum. ran the next year and was successful. ended up serving with howard metzenbaum. glenn did take another stab at national office in 1984, running

for the presidential nomination. he was unsuccessful in that bid. but he wasn't made cynical by the loss. >> it's better to have tried and failed or failed to try. i guess that's the what i i look at it. >> he continued to represent ohio in the u.s. senate until 1999 where he chaired the committee. he was on "meet the press" 12 times and sat down for the last time in 1973. >> it's so beautiful. you get teary-eyed look ing out and appreciating the beauty of where we live here, and you can't help but wonder as you fly over places like the middle east that we have so many manmade problems in that area for centuries, why we can't get together on this beautiful home we call earth and really solve some of these problems here. >> as they say in the movies, 32 years ago, godspeed.

>> you saw in that one uniform, he was the first american to orbit the earth, and of course, now he's the oldest american to ever have been up in space when he went up in the space shuttle there. by the way, just moments ago hillary clinton spoke about glenn in the unveiling of harry re reid's portrait on capitol hill. >> senator john glenn, a friend to many of us and a great american hero, passed away today. i know the tributes will be flowing. i'm sure the congressional record will be filled with pages of appreciation and recognition of this extraordinary american's life. >> president-elect donald trump tweeted about john glenn saying this. today we lost a great pioneer of air and space in john glenn. he was a hero and inspired generations of future explorers. he will be missed. john glenn received the presidential medal of freedom

from president obama in 2012. >> the first american to orbit the earth. john glenn became a hero in every sense of the word. but he didn't stop there serving his country. as a senator, he found new ways to make a difference. >> we're going to explore john glenn's life in two ways. first we're going to focus on his space there and then we'll cover his political life. frankly, he pioneered our coverage of the space program. he joins me on the phone and he is somebody that can call john glenn not just a friend but a close friend. jay barbree, i can't imagine what you're feeling today. >> it's a bad day, chuck, and we expected it. i talked to john for the last time a few weeks ago, and he was bedridden at that time, losing his eyesight, but he still had

high spirits. we had been expecting it now for a few days since he's been back in the hospital, but i got to tell you, there was no bigger hero than john glenn, and there was no better person. he really was a small town boy. i'll be honest with you, chuck. you know, he reminded me a lot of you, because you're that type of guy that you talk to anyone anyplace, you fit in. it doesn't matter because you don't consider yourself above anyone else, and that's the way john was. he always was there, and to do what he did, to go into orbit on february 20th, 1962 on a rocket that had been blown up as often as it was going, and to take that risk that he did, he caught us up to a certain extent back with the russians in the space race, and you mentioned the fact that he was a senator for 24

years, but i never called john glenn senator. i think when i interviewed him for nbc, i might have callen him senator once in miami. but i wasn't interviewing him when he was running for president. he was the greatest guy. >> you know, and you were covering it, it mattered to nasa who the person was who was going to orbit the earth earth. obviously john glenn had this scale. boy, he's representing mankind, he's representing america. why did they pick john glenn? >> you nailed it. he was in line at the time. because he was going to fly like flight number 3 but it was going to be a suborbital flight like, because russia had already orbited and then the gregorian

in late '61, early '62, i forget about which, and he orbited for 24 hours. nasa just says we've. we're probably caught up in the gemini program. . he became good friends with jfk. president kennedy and the kennedy family. . john kennedy gave nasa orders not to let him fly anymore, because he didn't want to the kill a national hero. ment -- he figured it out, as you know, and he got into politics. he came back to fly in 1998 on the shuttle discovery at the age of 77, and by golly, when he got

off of that shuttle, i was standing there and everybody was carrying out and saying. they're going to have to roll him off in a whoo. >> he would look at me and wink and i shot him a salute is the. i've nefertiti been so proud of a person in all my life. >> jay barbree, i could go on and on. i'm going to leave it at that, but i know folks will be more interested in your beds over the upcoming days. a long time strategist, bob schrum, who i'm asking him to handle john glenn, the political side. bob, let's lay it out. the greatest political resume,

to be president. . that's with the unthat's always been the head scratcher to me f.ment. walk me tlul that will. i think he easily could have picked john glenn. who was he most comfortable with? i suppose john glenn missed out on that competition by a matter of inches. >> what's interesting about glenn's political career, what made him the perfect american hero in space isn't necessarily the perfect skill set for politics. or maybe it didn't work for him. >> i think that's a really powerful insight. i said to somebody earlier when

they had described him as a great politician, i said, he wasn't a great politician. he was a great public servant. and the fact that he eschewed a lot of the normal political stuff -- when i worked for him in his 1992 reelection, the last he a reelection he ran in and he won, the only way you could get him to say something was to say, it's the right thing to do. he also had this incredible decency and sense of fair play. you mentioned earlier in this kind of really tough primary he had with howard metzenbaum, the other guy. he is accused by his opponent of child pornography. john glenn was outraged.

he called up, said he wanted to make an ad. it was a 30-second ad. it was stunning, totally rebuked the charge. metzenbaum went on to win 51-41, as i recall. he really never held grujz. it's one of the reasons i think he had such a normal way of life. he was a very rare breed. >> i was just going to say, i'm going to get a lot of e-mails. how come there are not more people like john glenn in the senate? how come there are not more people like john glenn in politics? does it take his temperament to do what it takes? >> that wasn't what john liked, that wasn't what he was

comfortable with. but i could ask you a question. why weren't there more people like john glenn on earth? >> yeah, john glenn is going to be hovering about us for quite some time. anyway, bob schrum, appreciate your remembrances on this as well. we'll have more on "mtp daily" after this. ♪ only a hippopotamus will do at the united states postal service, we deliver more online purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. and more hippopotamuses, too. ♪ so whatever your holiday priority, our priority is you. mapping the oceans. where we explore. protecting biodiversity. everywhere we work. defeating malaria.

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still ahead, what retired general barry mccaffery had to say about donald trump's choice for national security adviser, mike flynn. put it this way, it was not kind. we'll be right back. sometimes when brushing my gums bleed. no big deal. but my hygienist said, it is a big deal. go pro with crest pro health gum protection. it helps prevent gum bleeding by targeting harmful bacteria on your gums. left untreated, these symptoms could lead to more serious problems including tooth loss. gum crisis averted.

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sanity didn't prevail in the presidential primaries. and we're not in that cycle. we're not in that zone. >> what cycle are we in now? >> craziness. come on, it's crazy. people are wondering what in the hell happened in america? >> that was former house speaker john baynor with some blunt words about politics. he thanks god he's not in the middle of today's political climate. it's advice that lead up to what they say are now modern politics and that it started at the top.

>> i could not be prouder of the work that my administration has done. but there is no doubt that one of the central goals that i had had, which was to make the politics in washington work better, to reduce the knee jerk partisanship, to elevate the debate, i haven't accomplished that. >> shane smith is the founder of "vice." "vice, a house divided" debuts this sunday at 10:00 p.m. good to have you. >> thanks for having me. >> is it fair to say you're making this documentary to show this new hyper-era began in 2009? >> it didn't begin in 2009, but

it got a lot worse in 2009. we sort of have an autopsy of what happened from stimulus to obamacare to sort of the last four years which was just a partisan slugfest. and now we're inheriting that situation where it's worse than ever before. >> how much of this only seems worse because of the media environment we live in where everything is hyper covered, right? we cover every incremental piece, and i think sometimes we're drowning the public in incrementalalism. if we had the same level of media coverage, say, during the '50s from the mccarthy era and these other things, would we say the same thing? >> i think that's an important point and one of the only points that president obama and speaker baynor agreed on is that the press aspect of it has blown everything out of proportion. that said, i think if you look

at the congress that has -- you know, the last four years, for example, has been the least amount or the least effective in history, so i think that there is a combination of both media for sure, social media, new news platforms, et cetera, have blown this out of proportion. they're moving farther to the right and farther to the left. but also if you look at the historical output of legislative, it's not going well. >> do either baynor or obama take any personal responsibility for the climate? >> i think they both do. i think baynor feels bad and, you know, i think was surprised that he was ousted by his own party because of the tea party, and i think president obama realizes that this was not one of the best parts of his administration. >> what did you learn from this that you didn't know going in? >> i didn't realize how bad it was. i think if you talk to speaker baynor, you know, he's sort of

the mechanic of washington. he wanted to get things done. and, you know, previous to this, he was seen as a real partisan guy, a right wing guy. but he was ousted for being too bipartisan, for actually meeting with the president at all. and then you realize just how bad it is that the speaker, who is supposed to bridge consensus with the president, wasn't even allowed to meet the president, otherwise risk getting ousted. and i think that was surprising, the level of partisanship and how, you know, vitriolic it is, to the point where you can't even meet the other side. >> look, when i get the question of what can be done to sort of fix this, we all get to the point that there is about a hundred different things that need to change to have the grand fix. it's like fixing up a house. it's not one thing, it's a lot of things. that said, what was the most viable piece of advice baynor and obama gave to sort of -- to

the current leadership that's going to be inheriting all this to try to cut it down, that they think is a realistic way to try to curb some of the hyper partisanship? >> i think in the end of the documentary, obama reflects upon the last eight years and says, look, i might be progressive in my policy, but i'm conservative as an institutionalist, and these institutions have weathered a lot of storms, and people can get frustrated with the slowness of the political process. and that frustration can lead to maybe trying to have systemic change. he was very worried about this, that, you know, revolutions, quote, unquote, never end up where we think they're going to. i think that was a very cautionary tale of let's look at our institutions and let's have faith in our institutions. that was my big, big takeaway from my time with the president.

>> i have to say hearing him describe himself as an institutionalist is fascinating. i don't know if he would have done that eight years ago. anyway, shane smith, you made me want to watch this even more. >> thank you very much. >> i appreciate it and thank you for coming on the show. again, "vice special report: a house divided" debuts tomorrow at 10:00 p.m. on that station called hbo. jim mccaffeccaffery's conce about donald trump's choice of mike flynn. stay tuned. mom, check this out. wow. swiffer sweeper, and dusters. this is what i'm talking about. look at that. sticks to this better than it sticks to lulu. that's your hair lulu! mom, can we have another dog? (laughing) trap and lock up to 4x more dirt, dust and hair than the store brand stop cleaning. start swiffering.

special appointment for national security advisers do not require senate confirmation. donald trump has already made his choice, it's retired general mike flynn. he was a loyalist and before he retired he was a defense officer who ran the defensive agency. but he has come under fire for tweets about muslims, and along with his son, sharing fake news stories. it got msnbc news analyst barry mccaffery extraordinarily nervous. >> i'm now extremely uneasy about some of these tweets which don't sound so much as if they're political skullduggery, but instead border on being demented. i think we need to aggressively examine what was going on with

skwen fly general flynn and his son dealing with these transparent, nearly demented tweets that were going out. i think it needs closer scrutiny. >> mccaffery is somebody who i've noticed chooses his words very carefully. we're going to dig into this, next. and the new wild-caught lobster & shrimp trio, with a lobster mac-and-cheese topped lobster tail. come treat yourself to feast fit for the season before it ends.

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♪ safe driver ♪ accident-free ♪ everybody put your flaps in the air for me ♪ i can't lip-synch in these conditions. ♪ savings ♪ oh, yeah welcome back to "mtp daily." time for "the lid." back with me, katie packer, chris cillizza, john stanton. barry mccaffrey, any retired general doesn't rag on other generals. you don't do that. it's sort of just like, military guys, there's rivalries and they might -- but to do it that way, you don't do it unless you feel compelled to do so. something's going on here. >> it seems like it's a lone wolf move. it suggests there's some level of coordination. i'm sure he may have pinged a few other people saying, i'm going to do this. yeah, i think if you look and say, okay, who is the most controversial pick, and i think you have to grade on a curve, that a controversial epa

dictor is different than a controversial national security adviser or secretary of defense or attorney general. just all cabinet positions aren't created equal. flynn is clearly, in my mind, i guess, sessions in that mix, but flynn is clearly the one if you had to pick today, you would say, that's the guy who is flagging in this material going of this. now, as we were talking about off air, does not need to be confirmed in a way that virtually all these other positions we were talking about, but that also means, it can just be like, and out, and . this is very much, you serve at the will of the boss. >> the two big offices in the west wing after the president. one is chief of staff, one is a national security adviser. >> look who held the job, too. in terms of powerful people -- >> condi rice, hadley. >> and it's a job that doesn't just speak to the president, but it actual coordinates all of the national security advice that's coming to the president. and it's sort of remarkable, when you look at the accolades that mattis got from across the

aisle from people serving in the armed forces and it's very different from the kind of response that flynn has received. >> and if flynn were to be gotten rid of or step down or if trump were to push him out, that could actually end up helping him get sessions through. >> of course, i gave you this guy. >> you sacrificed him, you get sessions through. >> by the way, this is a very trumpian way of doing business. >> he's a dealmaker. which is, always be willing to give something up, that you really aren't as married to, but don't let them think you are. >> that's a fascinating -- >> that's the key to understanding him. what's the thing he prides himself on? art of the deal, deal making, compromise. so he will trade 5 1/2 for what he believes is 6. >> before we go, speaking of deal making, donald trump once made a deal with mark burnett years and years ago. and "variety" is reporting this hour that donald trump is going to remain wibl it's an executive

producer title on "celebrity apprentice" when it debuts in january. >> right under burnett in the credits, above arnold schwarzenegger. >> you can't write it. >> it's true. >> you know, donald trump being connected to the apprentice is not news to the american public, it may have given him the persona he needed to win this election. is there a limit he can go here that will alienate some of his own supporters? >> no. >> they love this stuff, don't they? >> this is the least controversial thing that's happened. >> yeah, we're through the looking glass. no one with this resume and this approach to politics has ever been elected to this office. not even close. the reagan comparison is -- ronald reagan was the governor of california! >> exactly. >> he had a job, other than acting, that was in politics. and you say, oh, well, this is a similar thing. we are -- whether it's his

conflicts of interest, you know, the diversifying of his business. the reality stuff. the family and what they're involvement be. we are in a different place than we ever have been before. >> likelihood that we see donald trump and arnold schwarzenegger together on a "celebrity apprentice" before january 20th? >> 100%. >> he's going to -- walking in at the beginning. >> you don't think so! you're in the "no" category. his name's on the credits. >> there's time limits. >> i'm just not willing to rule anything out. >> wow, that's something we've all -- >> when it comes to donald trump, don't rule anything out. katie, chris, john, thanks very much. hillary clinton's popular vote count is approaching a big milestone. we'll tell you about it after the break.

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i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. well, in case you missed it, we're still counting votes from last month's presidential election, and hillary clinton's vote total does keep increasing. she's closing in on barack obama's vote total from 2012. according to the tireless work of our pal, dave wasserman, has approximately 65 million votes nationwide. that's about half a million anier votes than obama did in 2012. as you know, she got her votes in the wrong places to earn o a ticket to the white house. she garnered thousands than fewer votes than obama in swing states like michigan, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. if she ran at obama's place in just those three states, she'd

be president-elect right now and this popular vote business wouldn't matter to anybody. folks, when it comes down to the popular vote, it's just like real estate, it's all about location, location, location. that's all for tonight. chris matthews picks up our coverage right now. . good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington with the news leading up to "hardball." we'll have the latest on the trump transition coming up in just a moment, but we begin with the breaking news. an american hero, john glenn, died today. he was an astronaut, a u.s. senator, a statesman, and an american hero. he died at the age of 85. we're lucky to have tom costello of nbc news to tell us his story. >> i don't think many americans today can share in his stature. i think he was unequaled. john herschel glenn was born in 1921. he passed away today at