be president-elect right now and this popular vote business wouldn't matter to anybody. folks, when it comes down to the popular vote, it's just like real estate, it's all about location, location, location. that's all for tonight. chris matthews picks up our coverage right now. . good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington with the news leading up to "hardball." we'll have the latest on the trump transition coming up in just a moment, but we begin with the breaking news. an american hero, john glenn, died today. he was an astronaut, a u.s. senator, a statesman, and an american hero. he died at the age of 85. we're lucky to have tom costello of nbc news to tell us his story. >> i don't think many americans today can share in his stature. i think he was unequaled. john herschel glenn was born in 1921. he passed away today at the age

of 95 at osu university hospital in columbus, ohio. he lived a remarkable and a truly american life. >> flthree, two, one, zero. >> reporter: john glenn was more than an american hero. >> go! >> reporter: for more than half his life, he was a 20th century icon. perhaps best known for what happened on february 20th, 1962. >> three, two, one, zero. >> reporter: the first american to orbit the earth and put america back in the space race with the soviet union. >> roger g-0 and i feel fine. oh, that view is tremendous! >> reporter: the late t.j. o'malley was at the nasa controls that day. >> range operations, go. >> all stockpile lights are correct. >> reporter: until he died, he kept the button he pushed to send glenn into orbit. >> you hit that button and say, may the good lord ride all the

way. >> god speed, john glenn. >> reporter: john glenn returned to a hero's welcome and invitations to address congress. >> of our knowledge of this universe in which we live increases, may god grant us the wisdom and guidance to use it wisely. >> reporter: john glenn's roots were almost firmly planted in ohio. he was born in cambridge, went to a local college, and married his childhood sweetheart, annie. he flew combat missions world war ii. and in 1977, a coast-to-coast super sonic record. los angeles to new york in less than 3 1/2 hours. and the early days of the astronaut core, later immortalized in the movie "the right stuff." >> john glenn is someone who could walk down the street in midtown, manhattan, and literally have cabbies say, hey, john, how you doing? >> reporter: he was elected to

the statehouse and made an unsuccessful run for the presidency in 1984. then in 1998, nasa came calling again. at the age of 77, john glenn got his wish to return to space aboard the shuttle "discovery." astronaut steve robinson was on the same mission. >> he savored the whole thing. and he didn't make a big poetic deal about it at all. john glenn was the most honest and straight forward and clear-thinking individual you can imagine. >> a lifetime of achievement and national service honored with both the congressional gold medal and the presidential medal of freedom. the country's highest civilian awards. john herschel glenn, pilot, astronaut, businessman, politician, husband, and father. and an american original. truly was. a couple of points here.

first of all, most americans may not know how close he was with the kennedys. in fact, he was with bobby kennedy in california when bobby kennedy was gunned down. and it was john glenn's job to tell the kennedy children that their father had died. he was devoted to his wife, annie. they had been married for 75 years. and you know those movies and the tv shows about her being a stutterer are absolutely accurate. he hung with her, stood by her while she was expressing difficulty, just expressing herself, and was always a stand-up guy. and you know, i think "the new york times" hit it right on the head today. "the new york times" said he'll go down with louis and clark, zebulon pike, the wright brothers. he was a true american explorer and hero. >> throw in charles lindbergh with that. i'll say at the end of our 7:00 show, he was a square, a regular guy, stayed married to the same woman for 73 years. went home at night, watched tv with her, no doubt, stayed with his kids. wasn't a hippie, but history's

not written by the hippies, it's written by the squares. >> can i say one last thing? we squared a barber. the guy paid just like me, 18 bucks to get a haircut. there wasn't much hair on his head, but she took a photograph of him and it hung there in her barbershop and he was always there and always as nice as to be. >> great reporting and great patriotism by you, sir. tom costello. now to the presidential transition. donald trump continues his thank you tour tonight in des moines. and that's where nbc's katy tur joins us now. katie, how long's this going to go on, do you think, this -- it's sort of like the end zone when you spike the ball, and the dance goes on longer than the play. what do you make of this? >> reporter: i think it's going to go on for a little while longer. not that much longer, because he's got to really drill down and focus on these cabinet picks and focus on the inauguration. but make no mistake, donald trump likes to hear the roar of the crowd. that was something that became very evident on the campaign trail. he would come into these rooms, even on what should have been a

pretty bad day for the candidate, various controversies coming out, even on -- at times, when he was facing some of those bigger controversies, like the 2005 "access hollywood" audio, or the women who were accusing him of sexual assault. he came out on stage and he would hear the roar of the crowd, and that's when you would see his spirits lift. it should come as no surprise that he is doing this sort of victory lap and going to the swing states and thanking them for putting him over the edge. his critics might say that maybe he's taking too much time to do this, instead of taking time to focus on, say, who his secretary of state might be. we still don't know who that is going to be. and focusing on filling not only those big roles, but the 200 though 3,000 other smaller roles in the white house that still need to be filled, in order to keep things running smoothly, when the transition is over and when president barack obama

hands the reins officially over to donald trump on january 20th. so there's critics saying that, but trump and his campaign would tell you that they want to get out there, they want to speak to the people, they want to get the ear of the people, and they want to make sure that they know that the president-elect hears them and is going to remain, as he says, or as he claims right now, to be a champion of their causes. >> do you think there's a chance that he's going to keep doing this, all the way through his four years as president? possibly eight? >> reporter: absolutely. >> it seems to be an elixir for him. >> i do think so. i think we'll find a moment where he's facing a hurdle, getting legislation that he wants to get done in congress, i wouldn't be surprised if he came out to the american public and held one of these large-scale rallies in order to use the bully pulpit to push through his agenda. so i wouldn't be surprised if that happens. he obviously enjoys it, as i was saying earlier. i think this is something that's going to become pretty standard

for a trump administration, going forward. that being said, this is donald trump and you can never really predict what he's going to do, until he predicts it. but they've had great success with these rallies, in turning out crowds and getting attention and allowing donald trump to, you know, state in the spotlight and stay on cable news and get his message out there. so this is somhing that will likely happen ithe future. >> i think the roar of the crowd does wonders for people. thank u so much, katy tur. makes sense to me. i imagine he will do it to win his battles in congress. i'm joined right now by cnbc's john harwood, who's outside trump tower. john, you've really got a focus, and it's everybody from outside, you're closer in, obviously, reporting it. what is going on with this secretary of state? it's almost a circus. there's so many names, every day i learn new names, how to pronounce new names. it started off with rudy giuliani and it's gotten longer -- is it still a rudy giuliani race? i still have this hope -- not hope, it's not my job to have a

hope. i still think it's rudy, but what you're thinking and reporting? >> reporter: i doubt that it's rudy, but i think that we really don't know and there's a lot of guesswork going on, chris. it is a bit of a circus. i talked to somebody very close to reince priebus today, in washington, about where do you see this thing, and the answer was, only confusion. you've got people like rudy giuliani, mitt romney, bob corker, david petraeus, and other candidates being tossed into the mix, people like alan mulally, the former ceo of ford motor company, rex tillerson, the exxonmobil ceo. he likes generals and ceos, you can see some of those people getting it. but we don't have a great fix on it. one thing i asked this morning, because there were reports that

mitt romney remains the front-runner, the answer i got is, no, he is not. but i think there is a lot of guesswork going on. >> mulally makes perfect sense if you look at history, because robert mcnamara was picked by john kennedy. he came in from a field, you know, manufacturing, right into foreign affairs. and he was probably one of our great secretaries of defense, you know, until the vietnam war got out of hand. >> reporter: right. that's right. and look, the skills that you need in the global economy, to be a successful ceo of an international company certainly are applicable, although, you've got some people who are being considered, who just don't have diplomatic experience. but clearly, donald trump doesn't value particular governmental experience in quite the same way that many other presidents have. he, of course, doesn't have any governing experience himself. and there are many people at the state department who could advise someone who comes in from the outside. but, you know, he -- as katy tur

just told you, donald trump is above all things unpredictable. and i think we've got to wait and see exactly what he's got in mind. >> i don't think it's going to be trump pip me, i don't think it's going to be mitt romney, because they had a good dinner and he's still looking. that tells you a lot. if you keep looking after the dinner, you're still playing the field. thank you so much, john harwood, at trump tower. today hillary clinton made her second public appearance since conceding the presidential race. she was on capitol hill today, paying tribute to the departing senate democratic leader, harry reid. and secretary clinton called reid a fighter. here she is. >> today we are hanging harry's portrait here in the capitol, but the more fitting portrait of him will be the one that goes in the dictionary next to the word "fighter." throughout his career, harry's fought the good fight. on behalf of the working families of nevada and all americans. >> well, nbc's caskasie hunt jo

us from capitol hill. capitol hill where the big story are going to come. i've told you a thousand times. the best beat in politics will be capitol hill starting in january. because you've got so many sources, all kinds of sources on both sides of the aisle. let's talk about harry reid -- >> reporter: probably walking behind me right now. >> pick one up every hour. harry reid said something funny tonight. he said, i didn't get here on my looks, something else, it was self-deprecating and i think that's always a charming thing to say, especially on your way out. >> reporter: yeah, it was a very -- everybody in this room tonight was really celebrating harry reid. he's been here for 34 years. he started on capitol hill adds a cop, which i'm sure you'll remember -- >> just like me. >> reporter: and he was a boxer before that. a lot of boxer analogies today. somebody who was rae pugnacious in pushing for his policies. and everybody feels like the

senate has been gridlocked, and some feel that he stands in mitch mcconnell's way. but you have joe biden next to hillary clinton, her first political appearance since that devastating loss. bernie sanders was back in the room, at one point, very emotional. he and harry reid are pretty close. reid used to call him on the campaign trail when bernie sanders was running against hillary clinton in the primary. hillary clinton herself getting up and joking a little bit. she said, you know, this isn't the speech i wanted to come into the capitol to make, but i thought i should reemerge from taking selfies in the woods. she really was facing a room of people who quite frankly had been counting on her not just to take the white house, but to help democrats in particular bring back the senate. there's been a lot of second-guessing, a lot of inward looking, a lot of frustration and no small amount of blame from a lot of the people that she faced today, although they did all stand up together and give her a standing ovation. still, somewhat of a difficult

moment. she and senator kaine, who, of course, was her running mate. they walked out of the room together. they were standing next to each other, kind of talking back and forth. kind of an interesting thing to see play out, as they walked down the hallway, straight to this bank of cameras waiting for her. she took some time to shake hands with some kaine staffers, a little bit like being back on a political rope line. i asked her on her way out if she thought fake news cost her the election. that's the one thing she did st to talk about in her speech today. and a senior aide tells us that she's spoken with the owner of comet ping-pong, where that man went and shot a gun into the floor, thankfully no one was hurt. but that's become a focus for her. whether other people in the room think that's the reason she lost this election, unclear at this point. >> i know she had john podesta and huma abedin with her, so he's loyal to those guys to the end, beyond the end. thank you, kasie hunt, on capitol hill. we'll get to that story about

comet pizza, right down the street here in a moment. also coming up, the backlash against donald trump's pick to run the environmental protection agency is growing. this is a real punch in the face to the environmentalists picking this guy. and later, tonight, trump's edition of "vintage trump" and some of the most revealing things trump has told us the, including me, in interviews over the years. and "hardball's" coming up at the top of the hour, 7:00 eastern. re, the no.1 choice of dentists. compared to oral-b 7000, philips sonicare flexcare platinum removes significantly more plaque. this is the sound of sonic technology cleaning deep between teeth. hear the difference? get healthier gums in just 2 weeks vs a manual toothbrush and experience an amazing feel of clean. innovation and you. philips sonicare. save now when you buy philips sonicare.

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the epidemic of malicious fake news and false propaganda that flooded social media over the past year, it's now clear that so-called fake news can have real-world consequences. this isn't about politics or partisanship. lives are at risk. lives of ordinary people, just trying to go about their days to do their jobs, contribute to their communities. it's a danger that must be addressed and addressed quickly.

>> well, that's hillary clinton, of course, do i have to say that's hillary clinton, late today on capitol hill. one of the most famous women ever, of course, speaking out against what she called the epidemic of fake news. meanwhile, that north carolina man who was arrested on sunday for firing a gun inside a pizza restaurant here in washington, a few blocks away from here, is talking about what made him do it 28-year-old edgar madison wch is his name. said he was investigating nine articles saying the pizzeria was at the center of a hillary clinton child sex slave ring. well, welch now telling "new york times," this is one of the great understatements in the history of man, quote, the intel on this wasn't 1 hurricane%. wow, msnbc's jacob soboroff is following this story and has more. jacob, i think "not 100%" is a complete understatement. this was ridiculous lyin making up fictitious horror stories about children being used for whatever actual purposes and playing it on hillary and that pizzeria down

the street from here. what are your thoughts? >> i think the intel was not 100%, it was not 90%, it was zero percent, because this was a completely falsified story, a lie, as you say, chris. and you'd be happy to know that the comet ping-pong, your local pizzeria is back open for business. they're accepting customers again. and for the first time, we are hearing from this man when went in based on this complete lie and actually unloaded a firearm into the ground there. his name is edgar welch. and he told "the new york times" exclusively. let me read it to you, quote, i just wanted to do some good and went about it the wrong way. he said the substantial evidence from a combination of sources, this is "the new york times" here, left him with the impression something nefarious was happening. he said one article on the subject led to another and then another. he said he did not like the term "fake news," believing it was meant to diminish stories outside the mainstream media, which he does not completely trust. and in fairness, there are a lot of people out there, chris, who do distrust the mainstream

media. gallup says that number is at the lowest it's been since they started recording that number. but there's a lot of blame to go around, including on social media sites like facebook. and this morning on the "today" show, coo sheryl sandberg spoke exclusively with savannah about this controversy. here is what she said to say. >> there have been claims that it swayed the election, and we don't think it swayed the election, but we take that very seriously. and we're working with third parties helping to label false news, doing the things we can do to make it clearer what's a hoax on facebook. >> this is a problem, chris, that is big enough that secretary clinton spoke about this at one of her only public appearances since losing the presidency. a lot of people say that fake news very well may have influenced the election. i shared this story with you t other day of this man who shared a story about a fake murder suicide of an fbi agent connected to the clintons. it was shared 1.6 million times

in the four days before the election. >> i think people ought to know, at your end of the business, too, jake, that editors and producers at places like nbc news and reuters and the associated press, of course, and the quality newspapers like "the new york times" and "l.a. times" and "washington post," they make an incredible effort to make sure that crap doesn't come through. there are facts that are reported to the american people. there are editorials, but the facts come through in these major newspapers and wire surge and news networks. they really do put up a wall against lies. >> and chris, that's the problem -- >> people ought to learn that. if you don't like "the new york times" editorial page, don't diminish the power facts given to you in all the rest of the sections >> reporter: that's a problem with social media and with facebook. so much of this stuff came through my personal feed during the election. there is a lack of an ability to filter some of this stuff. there's a lot of talk, a lot of

lip service about places like that, they'll look for ways to filter it and look for ways to basically act as an editor would. and people don't trust the mainstream media, but there is that fail saf that is absent, and that is one thing we heard secretary clinton want to see addressed today and a lot of consumers want to see that addressed, too, to sort fact from fiction. >> well, people want to hear the arguments we have around here. the fights go on here. the fights are usually, are we absolutely assure of that? has that been cleared through nbc news? do we know for sure that we can say that? not somebody else said it. it's a series business, and people understand that nobody is perfect, but the effort is there to get it right and not put lies on the air. soboroff, out there in the world with the people. now to the growing backlash over donald trump's pick of oklahoma attorney general scott pruitt to head the epa, the environmental protection agency. that is the name of that agency.

pruitt has an extensive record of combatting federal climate regulations and deep connections to the oil and gas industry, leaving many progressives, and environmentally conscious people deeply worried about his elections. alex si alex seitzwald joins me now. is this a thumb in the high of environmentalists? his daughter, ivanka, is concerned. she's been with al gore. i'm not saying she's a deep-hearted environmentalist, but at least she knows, because of your generation, too. millennials and younger people tend to know that they notice the climate's been changing and want to know if we're playing a role in it. that's a reasonable thing to do. >> this is a guy as one environmentalist told me today, you could hardly pick somebody who would be worse in this role as they see it than this guy. the attorney general of oklahoma, a huge industry in that state, he's sued the epa over and over again. he created a special unit inside his office just to do so that. he touts in his official bio that he's a major critic of the epa.

he sent a letter to the epa on his official letterhead that was written by an oil and gas company. and he was confronted by that, he was proud of it. he said, i agree with them. we need to return environmental regulations to the states. >> how is he going to go before committee, conservatives and republicans, environmentalists and skeptics and say he wants to run an agency whose job it is to protect the environment. will they ask him, how are you going to protect the environment? i'm going to make sure we don't. is that what he's going to say? >> i think he might be further, but he's indicative of where the environmental protection agency is in general, is that they've gone way too far. >> they used to believe in it. >> but now they say it's overstepped its bond, hurting the economy, killing jobs. you know, the problems that they needed to be taken care of have been have been taken care of. so i don't think he's going to encounter much opposition. you only need three republicans to join democrats to stop him.

maybe you get susan collins, but i don't know -- >> i think she might. environmentalism, i'm told by lou harris, the pollster, years ago, it's not up there front like jobs or terrorism. it's not something people spout out right away, but it's back in the values thing. it's something they hold dear and they do care about it, especially in the 'burbs. that's why they moved the to the 'burbs. >> he still talks about environmental protection, but returning it to the states. pollution doesn't respect state boundaries, global warming doesn't respect state bounda boundaries. christine todd whitman was writing memos saying we need to take global warming seriously. he didn't listen to those, but he chose her to lead the epa. and now trump has put the opposite -- >> the funny thing is -- it's not funny -- people want to know that their rivers are clean, they're not set on fire like the cuyahoga river back in.

i love clean air and i love clean water and i don't understand anybody that doesn't. anyway, alex seitz-wald, thank you so much for coming on. up next, donald trump takes on a union boss that criticized him. "hardball" is coming up with my full interview with kellyanne conway. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "hardball." well, chuck jones is the president of the united steelworkers 1999 out in indiana. he represents workers at the manufacturing company carrier. and the president-elect donald trump -- he said the president of the -- about to be president of the united states, exaggerated the number of carrier jobs that mr. trump said he saved. anyway, last night, jones continued to call out the president-elect for not getting the numbers right. let's watch the union leader. >> i appreciate mr. trump getting involved in saving as many people's livelihoods as he did. i don't think that can go

without being said. i just wish that he'd have had the numbers down. we had a lot of our members, when the word was coming out of 1,100, they thought that they would have a job. and then they find out the next day, after -- the next friday, that most likely, they weren't, 550 were still going to lose their jobs. >> well, a few minutes after that interview, president-elect trump lashed out at that local union president on twitter. trump tweeted, quote, chuck jones, who is president of the united steel works 1999 has done a terrible job representing workers. no wonder companies flee country. if united steelworkers 1999 was any good, they would have kept those jobs in indiana, spend more time working, less time time talking. then he goes, reduce the dues. anyway, jones responded again by phoning back into cnn and also, to "the last word" here on msnbc. >> instead of addressing that and saying, hey, you know, i got

that wrong and, you know, jones was right on his numbers, you know, then he wants to attack me. i think that's pretty lowdown, low lying. does it bother me? no, hell no, i'm still going to be able to sleep tonight and life will go on tomorrow for me. i was just calling him out on some of the things that he was less than honest with. and, you know, evidently he didn't like it. i'm not bothered by it, by no means. and i'm not backing up on my position one iota. he's wrong and i'm right and we'll move on. and if he wants to keep on tweeting, i'll keep on responding. >> msnbc anchor, ali velshi joins me now. i have a few rules i write. i have a list of rules i make. and one of the rules is don't attack down. always attack up. because it makes you look bigger and courageous and gutsy. and never night -- you always want to fight with somebody at least your own size. you never look good punching

down. trump here took a couple shots at this guy, okay. but it's not helping him. because this guy's a labor leader and labor's not doing that great in this country and he's got a platform and trump gave him in that platform and he's using pinpoint >> it's a tough line for trump to walk, because he got elected on the strength of calling a lot of blue collar workers across this country who have been lied to by republicans and democrats for four decades. unions have it tough, too. because they haven't been able to do some of those things that donald trump can apparently do with a phone call or threat or cajoling. the bottom line, is there were 11 hurkz jobs they were talking about, 300 of them were never going to go. donald trump claimed credit for 1,100. i can understand chuck jones' point. if you're one of these workers at a carrier plant, some of whose jobs are still leaving the country, that kind of thing, that imprecision is a problem. i heard you talk to jacob earlier about this. every day you and i talk, we are

talking about trump being imprecise. trump exaggerating. and it's just not helping the underlying cause of keeping jobs in america. it doesn't help. >> he should just say net plus or negative plus. >> yeah, it's easy to do. we all got a calculator on our phone. it's easy to do. >> okay, answer the more cosmic macroeconomic question. why is the market still booming? and i wish there was a simple answer, but when it's going down, we always have an answer. why is it going up? i love it going up. >> the market is not going up. a percentage of the market is going way up. financials, banks, places like that who think they're -- infrastructure companies, caterpill caterpillar, companies that are going to do very well under these proposed donald trump rules are doing very well. pharmaceuticals, drug-making companies, they have no idea what donald trump is going to do. those are not participating in the rally. it's important to understand, the market's not the market. it's 6,000 individual stocks. a majority of which are possibly

getting ahead of steam, more than they need. and many of which are not. so if you're the average investor, don't try to game this system. we're all still trying to figure out what does well under a trump administration and what doesn't? there is a real case to be made for the fact that some of these stocks, particularly banks and financials, are now valued higher than logical thought would suggest that they should be. >> as i like to say, ever since election night, let's try to find the pony in the crap pile here. this is what i think. if the manufacturers out there and the steelmakers and all the rest are bullish right now because they think trump's actually going to do some infrastructure spending, those big business guys, those big shots, those board rooms, those ceos out there, if they have their money now and they're putting their money on the fact there's going to be some business for them when trump gets in, it's goingo make it harder for the wishy-washy republicans in the congress to say, oh, i don't want to spend the money. maybe, tell me if i'm right, they'll put the pressure on those guys for business. you better damned well start spending money, building

highways, fixing bridges, doing some subway fixing, even. certainly meeds that. and maybe some rapid rail. and do it and don't go crying about it. >> you know this used to be a priority for american governments. you invest in infrastructure. it actually gives you a return. in your roads, your airports, your wi-fi, your ports all of that stuff works better, businesses do relocate and they do do more business. south korea does it, china does it, european countries do it. so it actually might force the and of congress to do something about this. there are some very creative ways you and i will discuss at another time to fund infrastructure in this country, but it is long overdew. if he keeps that props, it might be good for america. >> especially if we can borrow money long-term at cheap rates. thank you, ali velshi. i am an optimist about the fact that we might have a trip to china by a republican president, at least a nominal republican president, to do what the democrats wanted to do, the republicans refused to do, which is build! when we come back, tonight's

installment of vintage trumps and some of the most intriguing momentums from interviews he's done with me over the years. they tell us a lot about who he is and how he thinks. back after. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me.

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buildings. i just liked buildings. >> welcome back. that was donald trump discussing his formative years in a 1985 interview. his passion for building would ultimately propel him, of course, to billionaire status. but even his outsized ambition had its limits. in the mid-1980s, trump proposed would have been the centerpiece of his legacy as a developer, but it's a vision trump would never achieve. here goes. >> donald trump, the man behind some of new york city's biggest real estate developments now wants to build the world's tallest building. trump has unveiled plans for a mammoth complex of eight skyscrapers, bordering the hudson river on manhattan's west side. at its centerpiece would be a 150-story tower, 1670 feet tall. that would be 40 stories and 216 feet higher than the current record holder, chicago's sears tower. >> in this addition of vintage trump tonight, we're going to look at how the trials and tribulations that trump has faced throughout his life have shaped the man we know today.

i'm joined now by glenda blair, author, she wrote "the trumps." glenda, thank. and quickly on the top of the interview, i want to tell you, what do you think of trump? >> he's made being -- he's made branding a success strategy. he's made dominating the news a success strategy. he's made exaggeration a success strategy, throughout his career. and now he's got the biggest brass ring ever. >> does he use hiyperbole to hi own disgrace, at some point. he talks about building a wall. i don't think anybody sane thinks there's going to be a wall that somebody can't easily climb over, even if he builds one down in mexico along the rio grande. but can he get away saying two years from now, well, what i meant is we'll be stricter on illegal immigration or on illegal hiring or, you know what i meant. can he re-adjust truth? >> well, as you were just

showing those clips from when he said he was going to build a 150-story skyscraper, it would be the tallest building in the world by 40 stories, not just a little bit the tallest. but in the end, he ended up building in a strip of land along the hudson river in new york city where he was very strongly opposed by community groups. he managed to make a compromise with them and built buildings that are still way out of scale with surrounding buildings, although there are more skyscrapers more recently. but still, way out of scale with immediately surrounding buildings. and he did it by saying -- starting that 150-story building then, kind of figuring out where the give was in that situation, which turned out to be with making a truce, as it were, with community groups, but always calling it a success, never calling that anything but a fabulous triumph.

and that's how he does it. he kind of figures out the workaround, which might not be who you thought it would be with, in that case, the community groups were going to lay down on the railroad tracks. and then he figured the way around, clwhich is to get them sign on to his deal, which was smaller than 150 stories. these buildings that were actually built were somewhere between -- it was about a dozen of them between about 35 and 50 stories. still way too large, but not 150 stories. >> let's see who he makes the deal with, the hispanic community in this country. i'm skeptical. back in 1990, donald trump says he actually enjoys being the target of criticism. let's watch. >> do you think you'll ever stop being a target. >> no. >> or do you enjoy it? >> i'd like -- >> i think you get a little bit of pleasure out of it. >> i would like to think i don't enjoy it. i guess in my own way, maybe i enjoy it, and maybe if it ever

stopped, i would be a very unhappy camper. >> in 1999, he said he sometimes enjoys making enemies and wouldn't be afraid to do this as president. >> during your business dealings along the way, you know you have, i don't want to use the expression, there's a word for it, but you've aggravated a lot of people. you haven't done it without making enemies. >> sometimes i go it. >> but in politics you can donate that. >> well, i think you can do that. >> okay, pugnacity, gwenda, pugnacity. he's very irish about it. he likes going out on the street and finding somebody to get in a fight, as a tactic of life. i know this media thing he does every night, a lot of it's for crowd approval, but does he like it when "the new york times" tear into him almost every day, in most parts of the newspaper. does he like that? >> he is hyper competitive. his father raised his boys to be -- the word he used was "killers," obviously, not

liter literally. but to be extremely competitive. trump has spent his life going into a room, looking for the toughest guy there and showing that person who's boss. who's the alpha dog in the room. who's the alpha guy in the room. that's what he likes and it makes for a fabulous performance. he's riveted the country by being unpredictable, by being pugnacious. you never know who he's going to go after next. and people can't tear their eyes away from him. >> you know what p.t. barnum, the master of all hoopla said, if you want a crowd, start a fight. because the advance team for the circus used to come into town, build a street brawl, get a crowd around them, and then announce the circus is coming to town. in another 1995 interview with

geraldo rivera said the people he negotiates with in business are tougher than most world leaders. >> is being a real estate tycoon the same skills you would need as being president of the united states. >> i think i deal with much tougher people. being a real estate tycoon as you call it in new york, you deal with heads of other nations, other than perhaps a couple of dictators that are pretty tough cookies. >> like the way he got geraldo to give call him a tycoon. after deciding against a run for president in the year 2000, trp tolde in 2001, he thought he could never enjoy the job of being a politician. >> i'm not sure i would ever really enjoy the life of a politician, chris. i think that you're just on all the time and -- by the way, no easy job. this is really tough stuff. it's just something that i don't think would suit me very well. i don't think i would enjoy it very well. and you know, to do something really well, you really have to enjoy it. as vince lombardi said, you have to love it. and you do have to love it. >> gwenda, he didn't know he was going to win, i can tell you

that. they didn't know they were going to win. they were asking questions on election night, around 9:00 at night. they didn't know. so now he knows he's won the electoral college, he's president. do you think he enjoys what's going on every day or just the idea that he won? does he love the process of being that much in the focus of people's minds? >> i think he's having the best time of his life, having the entire world watching him and the style that he's honed over the years of being unpredictable, of having -- you never know what's going to come up next. he is enjoying that to the hilt. and he's found his target -- he's found a perfect way to appear before the public, because we're a nation of consumers. he's a great salesman. he's selling his favorite product. which is himself, to a nation that's used to being things. it's not used to thinking of things -- looking at things critically. we're more and more just a nation of consumers who want to

buy something. and there he is, selling himself. >> gwenda, you're a hot ticket. thanks for coming on this show. i like meeting you all the time. you're great. you know how to talk, now how to present yourself, you look great. thank you for coming on hardball tonight and merry christmas. >> my pleasure. >> we're about 12 minutes away right now from the start of "hardball." coming up next, stories making political headlines around this country you don't usually hear. you'll hear them tonight. we'll be right back after this. ♪ only a hippopotamus will do at the united states postal service, we deliver more online purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. and more hippopotamuses, too. ♪ so whatever your holiday priority, our priority is you. ...one of many pieces in my i havlife.hma... so when my asthma symptoms kept coming back on my long-term control medicine. i talked to my doctor and found a missing piece in my asthma treatment with breo.

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we're back. this week, we've reached out to a number of political reporters all around the country to hear what's the big political story in their state. tonight, we head to virginia, missouri, and texas. for more, i'm joined by jeff shapiro, a columnist and political reporter for "the richmond times herald." joe mannist with the st. louis radio. we're going to go in order. jeff shapiro, let's talk about virginia and the goverrship down there. what's going on in politics? i mean, terry mcauliffe is a very popular guy, born in

syracuse,ew york, of course, went down to most of northern virginia from somewhere else, that includes just about all the public statewide officials down there now, there from kansas city, they're from california, they're from somewhere. is that state going to become old virginia again? is it going to be as cosmopolitan as it's been getting? >> as you pointed out, the majority of people who live in virginia were born elsewhere. the state is becoming increasingly national in its temperament. but how national depends on which election. we just came through a presidential election. virginia went blue, strongly for hillary. the only state in the old confederacy to support mrs. clinton. but next year, the election for governor, an off-year election, turnout falls. that magnifies the strength of a very reliable, very conservative republican base. and that could mean the republicans regain the governorship. we do have this curse in virginia. it's been in place since the

late '70s. excuse me. the party that wins the presidency loses the governorship. it was -- that curse was broken for terry mcauliffe, that new yorker, in 2013. we've got a four-way -- excuse me, three-way republican primary, to sort out. and a democratic nominee who's already been selected, ralph northman. >> i remember that back with the victory of linwood holback, as a republican back in the '60s when kennedy won. joe mannis, let's talk about what's going out there in missouri. >> eric grigttons is a number of republicans who were swept into office on november 8th. he was a big surprise. he's very similar to trump in that he's never held public office, he's successful as a best-selling author and as a former navy s.e.a.l. he's promised to drain the swamp, but on the other hand, campaign finance limits were also approved on november 8th,

going into effect today. and he is the one politician in that 30-day window who has collected tons of cash. he took in over $2 million just yesterday, the last day before campaign finance limits officially go into effect, at least until a judge decides whether or not they stay in effect. but it's caused a lot of buzz. and he's not talking about -- the assumption is he's using the money for his inaugural activities, but he's not really talking about that. his wife was the subject of an armed robber a few days ago, in st. louis, and that's actually probably gotten more attention. >> yeah, thank you so much, jo. let me go to gromer jeffries. is is texas pro-or anti-immigration. we used to think all that trade, all that back and forth across the border down there, el paso way, and all of that. it wasn't like california where they were always angry about the welfare load and all of that

stuff. is it -- howould you describe it? do they want a wall? >> no. well, you know, you talk to some of the grassroots activists who are -- you know, who love hearing, you know, trump say we're going to build a wall. yeah, maybe. but i think most, you know, texas republicans and most texas realize that that's not going to happen. you're not going to build a wall. yeah, they want border security, but the idea of building a 10, 11-foot, 12-foot wall, they know that that's fantasy. >> i'm glad they did, because there are 14-foot ladders out there, you can buy, even in mexico. >> exactly. and quite frankly, the economy here depends so much on the immigrant -- >> we're two in a little bit of a hurry, but please come back. jeff, great meeting you down there. you were the gentleman we met on one of these trips. always nice to meet a gentleman. jo, grover, thank you. we've got a full hour of politics coming up, including any interview with kellyanne

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even if you're not a customer. the right stuff. let's apply "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. we're getting a clearer picture of what the trump presidency will look like, both in terms of the people he's picked to be in