doubts that the legislation will actually work. bots are pretty smart. congress is, well, congress. but it's the ultimately battle of man versus machine. and ultimately, i hope, i do not have to say that i, for one, welcome our new robot overlords as i'm speaking to a robot-driven camera right now. that's all we have for tonight. we'll be back monday with more "mtp daily." don't forget to catch us sunday on "meet the press." ari melber picks up our coverage right now. hello i'm ari melber. it's 6:00 p.m. on the east coast. you're watching msnbc live. and tonight donald trump on a victory tour of states he won. and big news about the job rudy giuliani won't be getting. and mass murderer confesses. dramatic video of dylann roof's confession played today at his murder trial. and there's no such thing as a lame-duck president when it comes to foreign affairs.

president obama coming out swing at russia on those plots to hack the u.s. election. and why the president is demanding answers before he leaves off. we begin with donald trump and a thank you tour that's shaping up as more of a thank me tour. today donald trump is holding rallies in swing states he won like michigan and louisiana. weal show you some of what he says in a minute. but first, for context on just how bizarre this tour is when you think about it, consider the pledge that donald trump made on election night. >> now it's time for american to bind the wounds of division. we have to get together. to all republicans and democrats and independents across this nation, i say, it is time for us to come together as one united people. i pledge to every citizen of our land that i will be president for all americans and this is so important to me. for those who have chosen not to

support me in the past, of which there were a few people, i'm reaching out to you, for your guidance and your help, so that we can work together and unify our great country. >> trump was right about one thing. the president should represent all americans. presidents can think about everyone. so after spending months in just a handful of states that happen to be politically important, trump could be visiting the rest of the country now. he could work on that pledge to reach out to those who didn't support him, like going to where they live. imagine trump building bridges in detroit or going to parts of california that made him the loser of the popular vote. but he's not doing that. here are the states, take a look, that trump is visiting for this tour since election day. you see them, ohio, north carolina, louisiana, wisconsin, pennsylvania. these are trump-backing states. now, here's the states he's visiting that backed hillary

clinton. no, we're not waiting on anything. that is done, none, zero, zip, zichl. he hasn't found it in his heart or in his calendar to visit a single state that went the other way. more on that in a moment. but here is the message he's serving up on tour from today in louisiana. >> my administration will follow two simple rules buy american and hire american, okay? because from now on, it's going to be america first. america first. >> for more we're joined by nbc's katy tur joining trump since day one, and e.j. dionne and david matalin. e.j., he could have found it in his heart, as i mentioned, to go to one or two democratic-supporting states. he didn't. why not? >> i don't know the simple answer to that, except he seems to like ed d a adulation.

he seems to like to hang around with people who like him. he seems not to like it when anyone pushes back against him. it's funny, when it looked like hillary clinton might win the presidency, i thought what she needed to do was go to the parts of the cub that would vote against her like eastern kentucky or west virginia and i think it's exactly what you said at the beginning. that trump ought to be going to the places that voted against him, because you need -- he's got to broaden out from where he is. 60% of americans in the exit poll who voted on election day had an unfavorable view of donald trump. he needs a wider base of -- if not support, at least understanding that he's got now, or he's going to be in for an even rougher ride than i think he's already going to get. >> david, you look at the economic arguments he's making. wouldn't they be best presented in places red, blue and in between? >> yeah. you know, the idea of creating

jobs and trying to raise wages and supporting america, i think most everyone can get behind that. the fear, as you see is, you know, he seems to be going just for his supporters. but also, the nominees he's putting forward, you know, these are folks that are billionaires and yet they reject sort of the kinds of things that would actually help workers. for example, their secretary of labor nominee opposes raising a minimum wage, opposes ensuring that workers get overtime. so, i think i think there's going to be a huge disconnect between what he's claiming to do and what he actually ends up doing. >> katy, your view of this tour? >> i think donald trump, if he wanted to make good on the pledge that he wants to be a representative of this entire country, should be going to more states he did not win, obviously. he should be going to california and other liberal states that voted overwhelmingly for hillary clinton, states that he lost the popular vote. where he did lose the popular

vote, ultimately. i do think that you know, e.j. is right to say that he does like adulation and that is part of why he's going back on this thank you tour. so far, what the campaign has said when folks don't agree with him and when there's protesters or when people say that they don't believe that this is their president, their response is to be hillary clinton handed over the election to donald trump. she conceded. it's time for you to accept that he's the president. regardless of your feelings towards him. it's time for you to get in line, essentially. instead of going out and doing the outreach and reaching across the aisle and trying to find a way to connect, they're just demanding support outright. >> right. and david, it goes also to whether haze grasp that governing is different than campaigning. clearly, he got the memo on the pr part, the speech part, that's why we played it, but we're not seeing that in any other way. on the economics, which is why we have you here, i wanted to

show you a breitbart headline, regarding labor. they were calling out the idea this is a labor secretary that prefers foreign labor to american workers. in fairness, a lot of american companies have some blend there. but your view on whether these cabinet appointments are not something you would disagree, as someone from the center of american progress, but on the breitbart point, whether they actually are in some tension with trump's own claims. >> i think there's going to be a big disconnect. trump talks a good game about being for workers, but his nominees, they're mostly billionaires and they tend to do things, as i said, to secretary of labor nominee, opposes raising the minimum wage. he thinks he -- and they sort of all espouse the basic trickle-down philosophy that george w. bush economy, cut taxes, cut regulations, but we know where that leads us. it leads to very, very weak growth. it leads to wages being stagnant, and so we have a continuation of this. and really, i think you have much more of a pr for trump

versus the reality that this is going to be an anti-union and anti-worker campaign. you can see it from donald trump's tweets. you know, attacking a union -- a local union president, just for daring to question what donald trump's saying. >> yeah. well, david, i want to thank you for your economic expertise here. have a good night. e.j. and katy, stay with me for our next story, donald trump not tapping rudy giuliani for any cabinet post. a stinging blow to one of trump's most loyal defenders all this year. >> it is true that he said something and said a group of things during that interview that are reps rerp henceable an terrible and awful about it. talk and actions are two different things. >> all i heard were former fbi agents telling me that there is a revolution going on inside the fbi and it's now at a boiling point. i had expected this for the last -- honestly, to tell you the truth, i thought it was going to be about three or four weeks ago. >> trump says he prizes loyalty,

but this news adds to a growing list of trump loyalists when it comes to top jobs in the new administration. katy, i want to go to you and i want to pose a question and get your views on it. is it possible that donald trump is using people when it's convenient and then discarding them? >> i can certainly say that it's possible. i'm not in donald trump's head. i don't know what his motivations are for deciding not to pick or use rudy giuliani -- >> but you covered this campaign. when there were things that almost no one would defend, including kellyanne conway, rudy was there defending them, as a loyalist. >> but we don't know what the reasons are for why rudy giuliani took his name out, if he did take his name out. i can say that this is a little confusing to me, because as of last night, i was talking to a senior transition aide who told me that rudy giuliani was the person to watch. and either that aide is just trying to mess with reporters, maybe that's the case, or that

aide was not clued in. maybe that's the case. or this was not something that was decided on november 29th as the press release announced. that rudy giuliani took his name out of consideration all that time ago, yet nobody knew about it. i feel like if that happened on november 29th, we would have found out. >> come on! do you think he took his name out of consideration? that's the story line that's in the press release. >> here is -- obviously, i'm a reporter. so i don't believe anything you just tell me. i've got to question it and i'm skeptical. but that being said, i'm a reporter. so i can't just decide that rudy giuliani is somebody that -- i think i just lost my mike. >> we'll help you with that. e.j., we'll bring you in. and i also have some breaking news from the control, e.j., that you've taken your name out of consideration to play on the new york knicks next year? >> yeah, exactly right. i would have played on the settics, if i could, but i don't think they would have me, either. >> what do you make of -- people watching at home, they say, who cares about rudy one way or the

other? we've heard a lot about rudy this. but it does go to this larger question that it is notable that people like chris christie, a competitor that was vanquished and was the first person to endorse trump out of that. rudy giuliani, newt gingrich, corey, who started the campaign, i would say it is somewhat unusual. we would expect more loyalists to be in top posts right now. >> an old chicago machine politician once said, if you can't be loyal to a friend, how in the world can you be loyal to an idea? and i think there is a real problem with this "apprentice" approach that trump is taking. it's great television, but it can leave behind a lot of bruised feelings. people are going to feel bruised anyway if they wanted a job but didn't get it. but in this case, i think there's a degree of public humiliation that's really unfortunate. i admire katy for being very clear. she's not going to report something that's not reportable, because we don't know what it is.

but rudy giuliani was out there campaigning for this job. >> yeah. >> it so seems highly unlikely that this was an entirely voluntary withdrawal. and i think, you know, trump will be fine now for a while, but if you keep disappointing a series of friends, there will come a point when you need them, and they may not be so enthusiastic about being there, down the road. >> katy? >> here are the questions. did rudy giuliani take his name out of consideration as the press release alleges? maybe. did rudy giuliani somehow go through a vetting process and did they find that there was something in there that they were not comfortable with? that would be a problem going forward. remember, he does have ties to foreign governments in his consulting firm. did they feel that he would not be confirmed if he was put in front of the senate? did something come out that we don't know about? or did donald trump just decide, you know what, roudy, i didn't like the way you were going out there and trying to get this

secretary of state position and being so public about it. i found that distasteful, i found that uncomfortable and i've decided to take you out of consideration, but we can do a nice little press release to make it seem like this was your idea. basically, you're fired, but we're going to allow you to resign. that sort of scenario. they could be any one of those circumstances. i do find it hard to believe this happened on november 29th, when as of last night a transition official said he was still under consideration. this has been an unusual set of circumstances for a transition, to say the least, having potential picks parade into trump tower and then parade out in front of the cameras and forcing them to do these on-camera trials, these on-camera auditions. >> people say "the apprentice," it's kind of like "the bachelor." >> it's kind of like "the bachelor." is rudy giuliani going to get a rose? no, he's out. chris christie's also out. newt gingrich is also out. these are three people who were

most loyal. lewandowski still could potentially be getting something. i'm told from my sources, if he does get something, it's likely something that he didn't think was good enough. >> that's another balance point. there's an old saying in washington -- we've got to go to break. there's an old saying, if you don't get a rose, you might get a spin-off show. katy tur and e.j. dionne, thanks very much. today, jurors saw chilling video of dylan roof leaving the church with gun in hand. plus, one of the greatest v advantages of being president is having access to some of the best intelligence of the world. so why is donald trump ignoring so much of it. i'll talk to a former white house speechwriter about the role of intel in the west wing. n heartburn remedy that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief. it immediately neutralizes acid and only gaviscon helps keep acid down for hours. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief, try doctor-recommended gaviscon.

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oday psint obama ordered intelligence agencies to review the russian hacking and alleged interference during the 2016 election. a report now due on his desk

before he leaves the office. some experts say russia was behind the e-mail hacks of the dnc and hillary clinton's campaign chairman. president-elect donald trump has publicly disagreed. he told "time" magazine, i don't believe they interfered. it could be russia. it could be china. and it could be some guy in new jersey. nbc's chief justice correspondent pete williams covering this story from washington. pete, can you walk us through the purpose of this review? >> well, we learned that the president actually ordered it earlier this week. it was disclosed this morning by lisa monaco, his national security adviser. and the purpose of it is, i must say, a little unclear, beyond simply wanting to know the facts. it could be that he wants to have something to lay out before he leaves office, to make it harder for donald trump to deny it. trump has said that he doesn't think the intel agencies are right about this. they said in october, that they had pretty conclusive evidence that it must go up to the highest levels of the russian government. it could be that he wants to give support for the congressional committees on both the house and senate, who have

already said that they're going to have hearings on this. that he wants to be able to give them a jump start. but in any event, the administration is simply saying that it wants to make as much of a record as possible to give to congress. one big question here, ari, is whether we'll ever see this report. whether it will come out in perhaps a redacted form, because the white house has said it' sure to be full of all sorts of classified information about how the u.s. knows this. >> and pete, there is a lot of talk and terminology thrown around about hacking, about interference, and some remember allegations and conspiracies about hacking election results. can you walk us through, legally, and from an espionage perspective, how the united states looks at the kind of influencing or information-related material that is at issue here, as separate from the concerns about hacking the actual democracy election system? >> right, i think that's an important distinction. because the government has noted that in 2008 and again in 2012, there were attempts, successful attempts, to intrude into the

election systems, but this is the first time that somebody, a foreign government or anybody has reached in and done sort of conventional espionage, taken the results out, and made them public or used them to try to influence the election. and that's what the administration says is new here. one of the options for the government could be to do here, what they did with china in terms of economic espionage, because there's some reason to believe that perhaps the fbi, by now, has figured out individuals that did this, and perhaps it could be a kind of a shaming thing, like they did with china. name specific people, say, we know this guy sitting at that computer did this on such and such a date. that could be one option here. >> nbc's pete williams, thank you very much. up ahead, what donald trump was saying behind closed doors on election night about his chances at winning. and as we mentioned, dylann roof in his own words. there's a gripping confession tape that was played in court

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it's called the president's daily brief for a reason. it's a daily brief for the president. but like so many traditions, that seems to be changing under donald trump. sources say trump is taking only one official intelligence beefing a week. reuters reporting that although they're not required to, president-elects in the past have generally welcomed the chance to receive the pdb. governor pence takes the briefing at least six days a week. president-elect is spending more time on political rallies, twitter, and meetings with aides who take, let's say, a less rigorous approach to research and facts than our non-partisan cia. trump's national security adviser, michael flynn, has frequently shared false information and hoaxes the online. critics have asked if flynn was knowingly peddling false information to trick other people or whether he himself was tricked.

and a similar question now faces trump. does he knowingly ignore this intel or does he not know the difference between random information he comes across and the insights of the.s. intelligence apparatus. joining me now for more, david crease, a former intelligence officer and daily cia briefer for several presidents, as well as navy hertzberg and former white house speechwriter for president carter. david, what is the pdb. >> the president's daily brief is the daily document of top-secret intelligence that has gone to every president since lyndon johnson. and all of them appeared to have read it every day once they're in office. and most of the presidents elect have received it in transition. it contains assessments of the most pressing issues of the day, analyzed by intelligence community analysts, from all sources classified and unclassified, alike. >> and it is truly some of the best intelligence money can buy. we take a look at this today.

if you look at the combined budget of all the intelligence agencies, you're up over $60 billion. i mean, you're talking about an incredible amount of resources, intel, manpower, as well as brave men and women overseas risking their lives to do all of this groundwork. do you think donald trump, based on this, doesn't get it? doesn't get what he's missing out on? or what do you make of this choice to skip it? >> it's hard to say, because we don't have enough information yet. on the one hand, he could be simply delegating to the vice president and the national security adviser a lot of these issues. and he will stay at a higher level. on the other hand, he could just be easing into a pattern using this time to select his cabinet appointments and others, and then start to take the brief more regularly later on. some presidents-elect have started to take the briefings later than others. although, usually, most by now in the transition have settled into a pattern for how they will receive this daily brief and the briefings associated with it.

>> all right. and rick, as i mentioned, there's a wider context when you look at obviously the concerns around fake news and propaganda throughout the election. but then more specifically, put that to the side and say, okay, but your national security adviser, in the same ballpark of information has this problem. i can read to you here, in the days before the election, general flynn's bristled with all caps exclamations about bizarre clinton conspiracy theories and others. it's less of the good intel, and possibly more of the bad. >> yeah. and he himself, trump himself might be a security risk. i imagine that the intelligence agencies are two minds about the wisdom of fully briefing this particular president-elect, who when he was briefed during the campaign, characterized his briefers as being, if i remember this correctly, anti-hillary and anti-obama. >> right. >> so that right there was a breach of the confidentiality that's supposed to go along with this. >> sure. >> you know, he has said that he

likes to get his information from "the shows." i guess, meaning, probably fox news, cnn, probably more rarely, msnbc. so maybe if the intelligence agencies want to get him to do his homework, they should give him a tv show where he's the only audience, but it's got a lot of exciting graphics and will hold his attention. >> you're not far off. i mean, david, kellyanne conway famously publicly said when they aske how do you emphasize something that's important to donald trump, that's when you try to include it in a television interview, because he's watching it. and we have no problem with television, right, but if you need surgery, you don't necessarily just want to get tips from a medical show. you might want to get a real consult. there are limits to what we do, we would be the first to admit. and david win noticed in looking up some of your stuff, you talked about the approaches of other leaders. you mentioned in particular that al gore walked through supplemental materials. walk us through your experience with other leaders to the extent

you can talk about it and how rigorous they take the process. >> first off, the president's daily brief is just that. it's the president's document. it can be in any format that donald trump likes. if he wants to get it in the form of tweet-length assessments of international affairs and counterterrorism, he can do that. if he wants to get it in the form of interpretive dance, he can do that, because it is his book to receive. in the past, most presidents have received it in book form, containing page-length assessments or in some cases, shorter, of various issues around the world. now, some presidents have changed that. some have liked in-person briefings. right now, president obama gets his on an ipad. so it is open for any president to get any way he likes. >> so it is platform agnostic, you're saying. it could be video. >> it could be. and presidents going all the way back to richard nixon have supplemented their president's daily brief with classified videos. of course, ronald reagan took it to a new level and received even

more of those, because of his past background, enjoying that kind of medium. but there's no reason that the president can't get the book in any format he wants and defer a lot of it to the vice president if he wants to have him take on more serious intel issues, like bill clinton did with al gore. >> rick, i want you to kind of close us out here with the larger question. which is, there are parts of donald trump that do seem to have already shifted in this role. i mean, he went from saying donald trump -- i mean, barack obama was potentially a lying secret muslim born abroad to "i love," that was the word he used in "the new yorker" magazine, your interview, "i love obama," and they're talking on the phone recently, and a current white house aide says they're still talking. so that has changed. isn't it weird that what hasn't changed is respect for the cia and intelligence agencies that do this? i mean, i would have expected, this might be something that you sit down, get a couple of briefings and go, wow, you guys really know what you're talking about. >> so you might imagine. but that's not how it's working

out. and he has never had a problem with saying the opposite of what he said yesterday. or thinking the opposite of what he thought yesterday, to the extent that thinking is one of his main activities. so there's nothing terribly out of character about this episode, this, oh, no, thank you very much, but i would rather not learn about the world. perhaps next week. >> yeah, remarkable. i will close on this note before we go to break. rick hertzberg, i know you, you don't have a lot of hate in your heart. you're a warm person. but there is something you hate that we'll talk about later this in this show and that's the electoral college. coming up, chilling video and words from that dylann roof trial. and another potential conflict of interest for donald trump. can you be president and as we were just discussing, a tv producer? we'll explain, with our panel, straight ahead. ♪ gaviscon is a proven heartburn remedy that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief.

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...of these benefits to help you get better dental check-ups. go pro with crest pro-health mouthwash. checkup? nailed it. ♪ gaviscon is a proven heartburn remedy that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief. it immediately neutralizes acid and only gaviscon helps keep acid down for hours. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief, try doctor-recommended gaviscon. stepping away from politics, we have some important headlines today in the federal trial against dylann roof, accused of gunning down those nine black worshippers at the historic church in south carolina. people are seeing the first look of this chilling security video that we now know shows roof going in and out of the church before his massacre. we're also seeing sketches of roof in court, where the video confession, his confession to authorities, was played for the first time to the jury. he said, quote, i went in that

church in charleston and i did it. roof also telling investigators, quote, what i did is still minuscule to what they're doing to white people every day, end quote. nbc's mariana atenzya out the courtroom. and paul henderson with legal analyst. mariana, walk us through what jumped out to you in today's dramatic parts of the ial. >> reporter: ari, just the statements that were shown in this video were so tough to hear, even for us. it's unimaginable what it was like for victims' family members and the jurors, as well. some of the phrases that jumped out, that admission that you referenced. he again said, "i killed them" and he chuckled when he said that. and also just the fact that he was very animated in this video with his hands. he spoke for two hours to fbi agents in this north carolina police station. remember, he was arrested in

charlotte, north carolina. and he also expressed his views on race, which really stood out to me. he called himself a white supremacist. he said that, you know, there wasn't enough being done to stand up for white people. not only in america, but also in europe. he even referenced president obama and i want to go back to his exact quote. he said. yeah, no more black presidents. that's for sure. we already are the second class citizens. that is the problem. and also, the contrast of the dylann roof we saw in the video, again, very animated with his hands, to the dylann roof we are seeing in this courtroom, or that we saw in this courtroom throughout the first week in court. dylann roof appeared absent, expressionless, just looking straight ahead. not making eye contact with any of the witnesses. just one final point, of course, court is set to resume monday at 9:30 a.m., and the prosecution said they were hoping to finish

presenting the case by thursday or friday of next week. so this is moving rather quickly. the defense also has had very little, you know, exchanges with the witnesses. and they have not called any witnesses to the stand. >> all right. nbc's mariana atenseio, thank you. turning back to paul, legally, as we know, this is an individual who is innocent until proven guilty. but outside the courtroom, looking at what we've learned about him, the actual murders, the crimes he has publicly, basically, confessed to are disgusting. his views on race, abhorrent. this is someone that is very hard to sympathize with in any way. yet if there is a thin reed for the defense strategy here, it goes not to defending what he did, but saying he wasn't in his right mind. walk us through the strategy in this first phase of the trial and ultimately, how mental capacity could come up in the penalty phase. >> bell, that's exactly why you're seeing them not make a whole lot of objections to the

prosecution's case, except in the strategy to trying to delay, dismiss, or derail some of the legal issues that they can focus on, rather than focusing on the actual evidence. rather than focusing on the testimony of the victims. and the witness and the manifesto that's being presented in here. because they want to start moving this jury's focus away from the horrific facts and circumstances in the case, and instead focus on some of the legal issues. if there is a way that they can undermine some of the legal challenges to the elements and charges that qualify him for the death penalty, that's what they're doing. that's exactly why they're making the arguments that they're making. and they're bringing forward the motions that they're bringing. and so far, are losing all of those motions in the courtroom, as determined by the judge. >> and in theory, this phase one is just about the facts, even though he's confessed, we still have a process that goes through

all of that. the only big question remaining is whether or not he gets the death penalty in that second phase. in practice, there is a connective tissue here. walk us through what could matter now, that might lead a jury to say he did this horrible thing, and these are all jurors that are open to the death penalty under the rules, but they might not decide to go there. what would make that matter? >> what would make that matter is the if they can present a case that is more sympathetic than not about his mental illness or mental instability around that time. he is still competent to stand trial, but those could be mi mitigating factors that might persuade a juror at the sentencing phase to not consider the death penalty. and again, even if they're able to make that argument, and it's going to be a very difficult argument to make in this case, there's still a secondary case awaiting him that's also death penalty at the state level. but as a defense attorney, they've got to do something. that's the foundation that i would be trying to lay, if i

were that defense attorney, in this case. because there's not much more than you can do, given these facts and circumstances in a case like this. >> briefly, 20 seconds. speak to the point that mariana raised in her reporting. that there is some sort of an apparent gulf at how he seemed at first during -- the good police of work of getting hip to confess and what they're seeing today. >> i think that's going to be absolutely relevant. that's why you see so many of the charges that are there, that manifesto, the voideo, the evidence, the pictures from his past show why there are so many charges that define him for the death penalty in terms of hate climbs and in terms of challenging religious expression and his horrific behavior with shooting those people inside of the church. >> just a tough trial, all around. paul henderson, i really appreciate your expertise. >> thanks for having me. >> absolutely. coming up, donald trump will stay on, they've announced, as producer of "celebrity apprentice." and brand-new comments breaking just this hour from replacements

on the show. arnold schwarzenegger is not a trump fan when it comes to politics. and what trump revealed in his own lack of confidence in the numbers. stay with us. re we going for lunch i know a place with a really good philly cheesesteak oh yeah, where's that? philly yes! if you want to make some money, you could get a paper route. i'd be happy to drive you in my new buick wh's a paper route? oh no, did lucky get out again? stay down boy don't worry, i'll take the new buick and go look for him. lucky! introducing the reimagined 310 horsepower buick lacrosse. you'll find any reason to get behind the wheel. ♪s♪spread a little love my way ♪spread a little somethin to remember♪ philadelphia cream cheese, made with fresh milk and real cream. makes your recipes their holiday favorites. the holidays are made with philly. with toothpaste or plain water.an their dentures and even though their dentures look clean,

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turning to politics, we have some great guests tonight. joan walsh with "the nation" and elise jordan, former adviser to senator rand paul's campaign. both nbc analysts. what are we going to talk about? well, donald trump faces many conflicts of interest as a president who's also a ceo. trump the company is so synonymous with trump the person that some say he's not a businessman, he's a business, man. who wrote this? i don't even know who's writing copy around here. but trump's latest overlap between president and business is not a legal conflict of interest, or an ethical conflict, assuming that he's paid to past agreements before he won the election.

it is just, as we'll explain, weird. trump will retain his title and credit of executive producer of the new "celebrity apprentice" with arnold schwarzenegger. this is a show owned and produced by mgm, but aired by nbc entertainment. we should note that nbc entertainment is a separate division of our country. in fact, we asked them to comment on this news and they declined. arnold schwarzenegger, however, is commenting. he says that producer credit is no big deal. and in the last hour, he mentioned that he did not vote for donald trump in the election. joan, does that surprise you at all? what do you make of this? we might have a little tension here between -- >> that he put this out so close to this announcement. that it's a little dig at him. maybe he is a person who can get under his skin and we'll have this whole thing blow up. but, you know, the "celebrity apprentice" credit is like, it's a punch line, it's just, it's the last piece of evidence that we live in a reality tv show and it's his and we're just kind of trapped in it.

his other conflicts are so much greater. >> right, you kind of shared the view that this is not the big one. this is not the ethical one. >> if this was the only thing, we might pay more attention to it. but there are so many bigger, bigger things. >> and there's often is precedent for presidents accepting royalties when they come into office. "jfk: profiles in courage," obama, "dreams of my father." this is just "celebrity apprentice." and i think the trump campaign has made a mistake in the way they have messaged this, saying that he'll keep the executive producer title and work on it in his spare time. that title is ceremonial. >> you're not suggesting that they're exaggerating his actual production role and labor on that show? >> that is indeed what i am suggesting. >> so i think to focus in on this -- >> wait a minute, what about the buildings with his name on them. he built those, right? >> he built all of them. to hear him tell it. >> i don't want to get this wrong in a bigly way. >> it's an unforced error, and i

don't understand why they persist in this myth -- >> exactly. >> but you say that, and i jest, but you do know why, which is, any real adviser or communications strategist would say, let them have this one, put it to the side. but he, obviously, has his hands on this decision and says, no, tell them i'm still going to work on it, whatever that means. >> but i think in the same way he's probably not going to do a lot of work as executive producer on the "celebrity apprentic apprentice", i don't think he's really going to be the president in a certain way. i think we are seeing a mike pence administration. i think we're hearing rumblings about cutting social security, which he came out against and he should, you know, make his voice heard in this. but it seems like he's just doing -- he's distracting us with all of these silly things and twitter wars, while the most extremist candidates are being appointed. so i feel like it's the pence administration that we're covering. >> and that's an important point. people say the first reality show of a presidency, it might

be the first driverless car presidency. and that it's the folks back at headquarters that are handling some of this. he also made some candid remarks here, donald trump, on election night, talking about it. he said according to "wall street journal," that at a new york fund-raiser, he said, of that night, we're going to have a rough evening. this is going to be a bad evening. and he also said in the same thing, it's amazing what victory does. you become nice to your opponent. i don't know how candid these folks are at fund-raising and we should be fair, he may be speaking in some jest, we didn't have a reporter in the room, but it does give away the game a little bit if trump starts to admit that he also believed the dishonest media and the polling and everything else. >> i think that donald trump absolutely didn't think that he was going to win. his own polling internally was not showing that he was going to win. they had modelied scenarios whee hillary clinton could win the popular vote and he could still win the electoral vote, but it was going to be a tough road. and kellyanne conway was referring to donald trump as her client, and changed the tune the very next day when he won.

>> i remember election night, she was on our network, starting to blame people in coke who hadn't supported him. it was really like, okay, it's going to start. i remember, probably tweeting about it. and then the story line turned out very different. >> and for the rnc, it was all about a credible showing. and they certainly had that and way more. >> they changed their tune. i want to get to some labor policy. larry puzder, the new pick. automation is a feature of american commerce. there are people who point out when it works and it can work and be a part of a reputable business. he's gone further than that, i think it's important to note, and talked about machines as really a way to do things that i'm not sure you want businesses to be legally doing. example, quote, machines are always polite. they always upsell, they never take a vacation. they never show up late. there's never a slip and fall or an age, sex, or race discrimination case. >> right, he's basically saying, that's the kind of workforce you want. and since you can't have that from real human beings, you'll get it from robots and he's very happily looking forward to that

day. and he's in charge of the labor department. this is the biggest prank in american history. donald trump's voters have been absolutely punked. i mean, this man has no business near the labor department. >> he's incredibly pro-immigration. >> and there's that, too. >> he's very pro-immigration. it's really upsetting the breitbart crowd. that he is very free trade and pro-immigration. and his who donald trump has instilled to solve the visa issues. >> right. i'm reminded of the andy vorowitz joke, el chapo in head of the dea. >> he knows how to solve the problem, though. >> have a good evening. thanks for being with us on a friday night. don't go anywhere. we have some breaking news. an actual federal lawsuit threatening the electoral college. democrats going to court. we have that report, next. [ cou] shh. i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. better take something. dayquil liquid gels doesn't treat a runny nose. it doesn't? alka-seltzer plus cold and cough liquid gels

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the electoral college is scheduled to make donald trump's win official in just ten days. that means, basically, 538 electorates meet in their representative state capitals and cast their official votes. we know that majority does not rule here. as you can see, hillary clinton now leading the popular vote by more than 2.6 million. that's the widest margin of any losing nominee in history. now some democratic electors are right to block trump. and they're actually taking the issue to federal court on monday, suing to try to stop trump in the electoral college. joining me now, one of those democratic electors and a former

colorado state senator, polly baca, who's part of the effort, and back with us, henry hertzberg, who's written a lot about this issue. polly, who are you hoping to achieve in court on monday. >> what we hope to achieve is to repeal any state law that's in conflict with the united states constitution that would restrict electors from voting their conscience and voting the manner in which they were intended to vote, as the original framers of the constitution envisioned. >> so if you win, do you think there's a shot that you could actually, with other states, stop donald trump from winning this race in the electoral college? >> yes, quite honestly, there is a shot. what we need to do is to encourage 37 or 38 republican electors to vote their conscience and vote what is best for the united states. and come up with an alternative to donald trump. >> now, you say vote their

conscience. and a lot of people around the country and around the world can wonder how someone can get so many more votes and lose. but that is the system. that is basically what the constitution dictates. if your side won, would you basically be able to void any election results, because the electors could ultimately, as you say, vote their conscience, regardless of the results in the states? >> quite honestly, the framers of the constitution, alexander hamilton, envisioned an electoral college for the purpose of having electors get together in their state capitals and vote, specifically, to make sure that someone like mr. trump would not be elected. it was to guard against a demagogue or somebody who would be influenced by a foreign country from getting the presidency. out of fear for our country. and so we are trying to live up to the united states constitution. >> and rick hertzberg, whatever the likely outcome in this case,

you have been arguing for a long time that there is a better fair democratic way to fix the electoral college. >> yeah, there is. it's -- it takes two or three explanations to gather it, but if your viewers go to nationalpopularvote.com, that m will explain to them the mechanism by which we can elect the president -- >> you sound like hillary clinton during a presidential debate. >> well, i -- that means i get 2.6 million votes. >> but the basic gist which several states have signed on to would be a legal, binding way to say that a national popular vote would determine the winner. >> it would. because states with a majority of electoral votes will have passed state laws saying that once there's states with 270, that we will appoint the electors for whoever wins the national popular vote. so that would enable us to have an election like we have for every other election, for

governor, for senator, for dog catcher, whatever, for president. and do it without messing with the constitution and do it in a way that we could try it for a few cycles and see how it works. >> right. polly, what do you want to say to hillary clinton, if she's listening, or the voters who support her and feel frustrated with this outcome? >> well, quite honestly, i would -- first, i want to applaud rick and say, hey, go for it. that's great. and secondly, i, of course, with my first preference would be to get 37 republican electors to join the democrats and follow the national popular vote and elect hillary clinton as president of the united states. which obviously, you know, i think she has received more votes than anyone in the history of the united states, for president of the united states. i believe i'm correct on that. but if we can't do that, if -- and i suspect that we can't, or

we aren't going to be able to convince 37 republicans to vote with us -- >> we're out of time -- polly, we're out of time, and i hate to do that. it's annoying when tv hosts do that, we'll be watching you in court on monday. polly baca and henry hertzberg, thank you both for your time. i'm ari melber. "hardball" starts right now. >> let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews. up in new york. there's a big news out from the trump transition tonight. rudy giuliani is out of the running for secretary of state. wow! one of the president-elect's earliest and most loyal supporters, giuliani was considered a front-runner. i thought he was going to get it. anyway, the trump team announced that the former new york mayor took his name out of consideration. here's what giuliani himself said in an interview