we aren't going to be able to convince 37 republicans to vote with us -- >> we're out of time -- polly, we're out of time, and i hate to do that. it's annoying when tv hosts do that, we'll be watching you in court on monday. polly baca and henry hertzberg, thank you both for your time. i'm ari melber. "hardball" starts right now. >> let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews. up in new york. there's a big news out from the trump transition tonight. rudy giuliani is out of the running for secretary of state. wow! one of the president-elect's earliest and most loyal supporters, giuliani was considered a front-runner. i thought he was going to get it. anyway, the trump team announced that the former new york mayor took his name out of consideration. here's what giuliani himself said in an interview with fox.

>> i decided, i guess it was, about ten days ago, november 29th, that the whole thing was becoming kind of very confusing and very difficult for the president-elect and my desire to be in the cabinet was great, but it wasn't that great. and he had a lot of terrific candidates. >> well, giuliani said the one name he does not think should fill a cabinet post is mitt romney. let's get that. let's listen. >> i probably agree with newt and be mike huckabee and a group of other very loyal supporters of president-elect trump. i thought mitt went over the line in the things that he said about donald trump. you can make friends and make up, but i would not see him as a

candidate for the cabinet. >> well, that's for sure. anyway, the state department post is one of the last cabinet posts that remains unfilled. an announcement is expected next week on that. meanwhile, we're watching a stage in grand rapids, michigan, where donald trump is set to address supporters at another thank you rally this hour. we'll monitor his speech and bring you any major news out of it. we begin tonight with giuliani's desire or decision to take his name off the list from secretary of state. what does it mean for the transition? nbc's kristen welker is in grand rapids, tonight. kristen, i get the feeling that rudy giuliani really, really, really wanted to be secretary of state. he campaigned for it. it would have been a hell of a decision, but what happened? >> reporter: look, i think a couple of things happened, chris. i think, one, trump world was divided. we've been reporting on this for weeks. you had a lot of people who thought that mitt romney would be -- rudy giuliani would be great. he's a longtime loyalist. and then you have people who have been campaigning against mitt romney. on the other hand, you have people who were expressing concerns about rudy giuliani, that he was too much of a

hardliner, that he wasn't enough of a counterpoint to someone like a michael flynn. and then, of course, you had his background. the fact that there were questions regarding his past business dealings. now, reince priebus has been very clear, all of that checked out. still, chris, i think it left a shadow over rudy giuliani. and the bottom line is, and you heard rudy giuliani refer to it himself, the fact that it was becoming complicated for the president-elect. that there were these two factions within trump world. some who were fighting for romney, some fighting for rudy giuliani, and i think ultimately, he felt as though it was getting too complicated. just as he said. and i think the president-elect felt as much, as well. i also think other names have emerged, as top contenders, including rex tillerson. he is, of course, the ceo of exxonmobil. he's someone who has done business deals in russia, in the middle east. and i am told that president-elect donald trump and his top advisers are increasingly impressed by rex

tillerson, and of course, he met with mr. tillerson several days ago. so i think the fact that you have the president-elect expanding his search, and you have all of these complicating factors around rudy giuliani, ultimately, rudy giuliani and the president-elect felt as though this was the best decision and that it wasn't going to be rudy giuliani. but you're absolutely right, it is a stunning moment. because for quite some time, a lot of people thought that it could be rudy giuliani. and now, tonight, a very different outcome, chris. >> i've got one more thought. you've watched trump, and i think there's sympathetic goiomn here. he doesn't mind being accused of too conservative or right wing. but i do think he wants to avoid any distraction in the first hundred days. the president only gets a little bit of time to get something done, as we all know, even from reagan and people like that, successful presidents. only get a few months. he doesn't want to have that tainted by some wild goose chase scandal problem, whether it's giuliani. he's in the same business in a rougher way, to chris christie. good-bye, chris christie.

in fact, good-bye to all your people. i don't want any problem you on the bridge. is that what's going on? he just doesn't want any scandal story, true or not, to distract him from his oomph right up front, when he gets -- when he's inaugurated. >> reporter: i think you're absolutely right. and look, we saw that with michael flynn's son, right? he was putting all of these conspiracy theories out on social media and he was fired, effectively, from advising his father. and so i think you're right. that was a real concern for the president-elect. and just to play a little bit of chess here, chris, tonight, president-elect trump is going to appear with the state party chair, rhonda mcdaniels. she is president-elect trump's leading candidate to be rnc chair. if she, in fact, does become the rnc chair, would he have -- would he want two romneys in key positions? by all accounts, the answer to that would be no. and again, tt underscores that we're increasingly looking at candidates like a rex tillerson to fulfill that all-important

position of secretary of state. the transition is very insistent upon the fact that he's not going to rush through this decision, because it is so vitally important and that they are expecting a decision some time next week, but it might not come next week. he's going to make the decision, when he feels as though he has made the right one, chris. >> okay, denying romney the secretary of state job, but giving his daughter-in-law the rnc job is like not giving you your big present for christmas, but giving you a stocking stuffer in with the animals. >> great analogy. >> well, last night, donald trump praised the men and women he's chosen for his cabinet. >> i believe we're in the process of putting together one of the great cabinets that has ever been assembled in the history of our nation. do you like it so far, everybody? >> what a crowd pleaser. anyway, anthony scaramucci is executive board member of the trump transition, itself. he's the guy. and "usa today's" senior

political reporter, heidi przybyla, also joins us. heidi, thank you for this. let's listen to what anthony has to say and if there's any factual corrections you want to get into, we will make sure the reporting is available to our audience. anthony, this guy, trump, and i've known him for 20 years, i don't dislike him or anything. some of the things he says, i make clear i don't. but let's talk about some things. generals! somebody said this was going to be like seven days in may. you've got the general running the defense department, running the national defense department, why all the brass? we have a civilian government. >> first of all, i think these guys are terrific guys and let's just call them for what they are. they're civilians -- >> now. a few years out. >> they're civilians that have valorously served the country. let's make that clear to everybody. and one of the great things about these guys, you think about the guys he's put in place, they get along with each other. and you're going to need support on that border. and general kelly is probably going to help the mexican government with the drug and gun cartels, which will reduce crime

in the united states and drug trafficking. so to me, i think it's a harmony of a lot of great things, chris. and this is something about mr. trump that i think everyone knows. he's absolutely fearless about finding the people that have the highest aptitude, that can go into the specific jobs and be the most efficacious at them. >> but cabinet ministers aren't supposed to be yes, sir types the. >> have you met -- >> i'm just saying. generals don't just go, yes, sir, snap to. they're supposed to be collegial, challenging the president. so there's a real community there of thought. >> well, first of all -- >> do you think generals are going to be -- >> first of all, they're not generals anymore. secondly, have you met these three guys? because -- >> no, i haven't. >> because i sit right next to general flynn all day. and i wouldn't describe him as someone who isn't a challenging sort of a guy. moreover, john kelly and i know each other from benz, another terrific person. general mattis, i don't know personally. >> mad dog! what do you think of that nickname? >> he likes warrior monk.

let's go with warrior monk. he's one of the most well read generals in the history of the united states and he's a brilliant leader. and i'll tell you something, you can't find anybody in any of the armed services that dislike -- >> so you're not worried about civilian control. you're not worried this is going to be too many generals? >> i'm not worried and i can give some historical context here from general washington through andrew jackson through eisenhower, you get less casualties when you put these guys in charge. >> i'm not against one or two, but this is a lot. and andrew puzder is the ceo of several major fast food chains and earlier this week he spoke about using machines to replace some functions of human workers. here he goes. "machines are always polite, they always upsell, they never take a vacation, they never show up late. there's never a slip and fall. or an age, sex, or race discrimination case." well, with of course that's true! but he's the labor secretary. isn't the labor department -- wasn't it created to look out for the interests of actual human being workers? >> of course it is. he's just -- >> not for robots! >> but, you know, you're trying

to present him as sort of callous, right? but he's not really a callous guy. i know the guy personally. he loves the working class community. one of the reasons why he was given this job is that we're not talking about a $15 an hour job. we're trying to get $60-an-hour jobs. one of the big problems here talking about robots, there's no robot manufacturing in the united states, chris. how about paying people $60 an hour to make these robots? the robots are coming no matter who you put -- >> so it doesn't bother you when you go to laguardia and see nothing but computer -- basically, laptops, a whole bunch of laptops where you order your donuts, hamburgers, coffee? there's no human beings working there, or hardly any. >> we can look through history at the industrial transformation and see a brighter future for the people who used to be doing that at laguardia. >> but who's going to fight for minimum wage in this administration? nobody. the labor department won't do it. the secretary he named is

opposed to minimum wage. >> i think the biggest advocate will be the president-elect. >> but he's against it. >> he's really not against it. he says he wants to make it a state-by-state decision. he's told people -- >> the minimum wage? >> yes. he's told people on this network and other networks that it should be higher than it is now. but what he doesn't want to do is have a one-size-fits-all for all 50 states. >> what about this guy, pruitt, the ag down in oklahoma for the oil patch. this is the environmental protection agency. it's the one agency of government whose job it is to protect the environment. and this guy defends the oil patch. he's against all this regulation. he wants to defend the oil industry. >> he's obviously got to get confirmed and in the confirmation process, we'll learn he wants to strike a balance between the two things. >> heidi, give me a portrait of how you would describe the competition of this new administration. generals, billionaires, as i said in bernie accent. they all seem to fit a pattern. rich guys or generals. >> i think anthony is right about the general aspect of it. i went back and looked and obama

had also appointed about three generals at or about this time. and mattis and kelly get great reviews. but i think the broader issue is whether we are seeing kind of a cabinet version of what we saw with the tea party in congress, which is where you have a whole flank of people coming in whose mission is unclear as to whether build up these agencies and fulfill their current mission or to basically claw them back and kind of claw back the government itself. like with the environmental protection agency. the word -- the name of it is to protect the environment. and you have a climate change denier in charge of that. betsy devos is very much against public education. so, i think there is a question just about the broader mandate. and what trump sold on the campaign trail. >> there is a pattern here. the environmental protection agency, you get a guy who's basically an oil patch guy and doesn't believe in all of this regulation. you put a head in charge of the education department, devos is a fine person, but not a big

advocate for public education. >> okay, so, actually, i think, again, you'll have to go to these confirmation hearings and what you'll find with her, she's an advocate for students. she's trying to look for the best solution for students across a broad cross section of the country. i'm the product of a public school, so i can tell you about betsy. she wants very robust public schooling. >> do me a favor? >> yeah. >> promise me john bolten will not be in charge of the united states foreign policy. because donald trump ran against these stupid wars. and to put bolten in there in any capacity, you're putting the biggest war hawk in the country in charge of war and foreign policy. would he do that? is that possible? bolten? >> well, listen, i don't want to rule anybody out, but i think the process has been fascinating for me to observe from my seat. >> you know what i'm talking about, don't you? >> i do. >> trump ran against these stupid wars. >> you're suggesting he's a neocon. >> he is one! >> what i will tell you about the president-elect, he's trying to find people that are not subscribed to any anchored ideology. >> well, look beyond john

bolten. i'm allowed to editorialize here. scaramucci, great to have you on. and heidi, thank you, as always. when we come back, we'll continue to wait for the beginning of dronald trump's bi rally out tonight in grand rapids. we're watching it live. plus, president obama orders a full review of election-related hacking. this is big news. what effect did it have on the election? were the russians involved? and let's check out what the intelligence agencies have to say about russia's role here and whether they are to blame for these hacks. this is something donald trump has repeatedly ignore ordinary denied. that's a big story, coming up next. the russian role. and another addition of vintage trump coming up tonight. you'll hear from him tonight in michigan, but it's his past interviews where he's been the most revealing about the kind of president he's going to be. finally, let me finish with something that needs to be said about the american hero we lost this week, with john glenn. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [burke] at farmers, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. even a rodent ride-along. [dad] alright, buddy, don't forget anything!

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well, we continue to watch that podium there in grand rapids, michigan. the latest stop on donald trump's thank you tour. we'll be monitoring what trump says tonight at that rally, and keeping an eye out for any news he might make. we'll be right back. why pause a spontaneous moment? cialis for daily use treats ed and the urinary symptoms of bph. tell your doctor about your medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, or adempas® for pulmonary hypertension, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours.

if you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis. he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the

military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. welcome back to "hardball," where we're continuing to keep an eye on that donald trump rally in grand rapids, tonight. we'll be monitoring, as we often do, to find out if there's any news in. in the meantime, president obama has offered a full review of the cyberattacks carried out against the democratic national committee and other political entities during the 2016 campaign. wow, this is necessary. the u.s. intelligence community has already blamed russia for the hacking, but the review will compile a more complete dossier of evidence for the president before the end of his term. this is a quick win. he wants to get it done before he leaves office. here's how lisa monaco described it at a breakfast with reporters this morning. >> this is consistent with the work that we did over the

summer, to engage both the congress on the threats that we were seeing and state and local stake holders that i just spoke to in terms of providing them both information and tools to defend themselves, and help them confront the risk. we may be in -- have crossed into a new there shareshold. >> meanwhile, president-elect donald trump may continue to cast doubt on the u.s. intelligence community that russia was, indeed responsible. on tuesday, he told "time" magazine, quote, i don't believe they interfered. it could be russian, china, or some guy at home in new jersey. this comes as a group of republicans prepare to lead their own investigation. here's what graham told cnn yesterday. >> i'm going after russia in every way you can go after russia. i think they're one of the most destabilizing influences on the world stage. i think they did interfere with our elections. and i want putin personally to pay a price. >> should trump take a tougher

tone with russia? >> i think trump should take a real tough tone with russia. because if he doesn't, you're going to allow russia to begin to break apart alliances. >> i'm joined right now by captain ram pell, opinion columnist at "the washington post" as well as msnbc political analyst, the great jonathan capehart, opinion writer at "the washington post," as well. i want to start with you, jo jonathan. i want a point of view and some attitude. suppose it came out that the russkis, the russians of old, our old cold war enemies, if you will, we thought we were going to blow up the world, one way or another, were involved with secretly putting out bad information and it embarrassed the republican candid and imagine that word got out that the election went in the direction the russkis apparently wanted it to go. i would expect millions of right-wingers would be pounding the streets of washington for the last several weeks. they wouldn't have had a swla come reaction of the democrats and progressives. yeah, let's have an

investigation. your thoughts? the russians, we all know, by 17 agencies got involved with digging up the stuff and hacking the stuff from the dnc, expose all of john podesta's stuff. bringing in all this e-mail. your thoughts? >> the fact that there isn't screaming from the rooftops by conservatives shows you just how other worldly a state the united states is in right now. every american, democrats and republicans, should be concerned at the highest levels that the russians have possibly done something, done something bad or nefarious with our elections. and the fact that republicans, who used to own the flag, used to own, you know, strength in the face of russia, used to own, you know, strong military preparedness and all of that, that they are quiet in all of this, is astounding. imagine if it were the other way around. >> that's what i'm saying, brother.

i'm telling you, it's unbelievable how this has become -- let me go right now to katherine, because what jonathan noted there, the fact that republicans, like lynds grahlynm and john corker, they want to know if the russians did, in fact, get involved with our election. >> of course, they do. of course -- >> why do you think they're motivated? >> well, the charitable explanation is that they care about our national security. they care about intervention within our democratic process, our political process. if you want to talk about the more self-interested reason, it's that today it's the democrats, tomorrow it could be the republicans. >> they don't really like trump very much either. >> there's that, too. but my point is that russians are playing the long gape here. in the short-term, they care about getting trump into office. >> you think they did that on purpose? they wanted him in the office or wanted to mess it up? >> i think it's both. that's where i was going with this. in the short-term, they definitely prefer donald trump. in the long-term, their goal is to destabilize the world's number one superpower. >> what i like about this, jonathan, only a moment for you to get back on.

it's not one of these nine-year lawrence welch investigations. obama wants this capped off, concluded by the time he leaves off on the 20th of january. >> right, so that everyone knows that what was what with this election and the russians involved, the russians' involvement and how extensive it is, so that the incoming administration will have no choice but to do something about it if there is something to do. and for the american people to know the extent to which the russians were involved and if everything is a-okay, then that for the american people, i think, should put a lid on whatever conspiracy theories that might be out there, that the election was -- >> sorry, katherine, is there going to be a reaction from russia if we conclude we do it. we put out an official paper by january 19th of 2017. you guys do did it. you russkis did it. we know you did it? >> i'm sure they'll declare that they had nothing to do with it. that they did not intercede.

meanwhile, saying, oh, yeah, notice how vulnerable our, you know, our frenemy is. >> our frenemy. >> our frenemy. and how we might have potentially affected them. >> catherine rampell, always nice to have you. and jonathan capehart, have a nice weekend. we continue to monitor donald trump's rally out in grand rapids, michigan. by the way, that's rowna romney mcdaniel on the stage, the leading candidate to be the next leader of the republican national convention. and up next, the chief strategist to hillary clinton's campaign, the great joel benson, the grown-up in that race will join us. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪

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hi, i'm richard lui in the msnbc newsroom. jurors in the dylann roof trial were shown a videotaped confession from the gunman. it began by roof telling authorities, i went to that church in charleston and i did it. it looks as though there will be no government shutdown. the senate is expected to pass a temporary funding bill. parts of upstate new york are being pummeled by lake-effect snow, which at some points have been falling at a rate of 2 inches per hour. now back to "hardball." it's now clear that so-called fake news can have real-world consequences. this isn't about politics or

partisanship. lives are at risk. it's a danger that must be addressed and addressed quickly. it's imperative that leaders in both the private sector and the public sector step up to protect our democracy and innocent lives. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was hillary clinton yesterday, at the united states capitol, in just her second high-profile public appearance since losing the presidential election last month. well, secretary clinton addressed fake news and urged congress to tackle the issue, which at times challenged her presidential bid and ultimately lead to a shooting innocent at a washington, d.c. pizzeria earlier this week by a man who believed bogus conspiracy theorieses about clinton's campaign. i'm joined right now by the chief strategist to hillary clinton's campaign, joel benens benenson. i don't want to rehash, but some things that came out of that campaign we've got to worry about. fake news. when you and i grew up, when walter cronkite told us something, that was about it.

the major newspapers. now people are getting information from god knows where, including alex jones and people like that, and they're acting on it. >> and i think the problem for mainstream media, journalists, print, television, they're having to make decisions in realtime. we're in the midst of this revolution. it's not completed. every day we're dealing with new things. when this campaign started, no one was talking about fake news. six months ago, no one was talking about fake news. today, president obama asked his intelligence agencies to report to him about what happened in terms of russia's interference, potentially in this election. things happened here in the last six or seven months that are unprecedented. i think it puts everybody in a tough spot. i think it puts guys like you in a tough spot. >> you can get punked, too. people call in with somebody. a younger person, somebody not smart enough to know this is bs. they get it right to the person on the air, reading it on the air, and they look like an idiot. >> and somebody tweets it and it

goes viral. goes to a million or 2 million people like that. >> trump's campaign manager that hillary clinton did not have a message. that's why this other stuff worked. let's watch her. >> the fact is that this campaign ran a race where we reached into those working class voters. they were the base of our support. and chris, all they needed to do was have a compelling, sticky, persuadable, aspirational message to the american people. if you can sit here right now and tell me as a brilliant political mind what hillary clinton's message was, i'm listening. what was it? all i heard was, we're not donald trump. that's not a message. that's a screed. >> well, there's kellyanne. and i have to tell you, she's a part skpan has a point of view, it seems to me you need a very powerful message to drive the crazy fake news. did you have a message? secondly, why do people believe the worst about politicians? did some politician or some political friend of a candidate is running some sort of sex

slavery operation out of the basement of a pizzeria. why would anybody believe that? >> which part do you want me to take? the second or the first. look, obviously we had a message. hillary clinton was running a campaign all the way through about building an economy that works for everyone, not just corporations and the very wealthy and those at the top. that the economic system has been working for those who had gotten 99% to have the gains. she was a true populist in this race. i think the voters that kellyanne was talking about are in for a rude awakening when donald trump proposes and sk as for the biggest tax cuts in history for those corporations. >> now we're all going there. i think -- >> no, with i think that's a real problem. >> did you make mistake in talking about too much redistribution, talking too much dividing up the pie and not talking enough about baking more pies, making more jobs. did you talk economic growth? >> absolutely, we talked about strong growth and fair growth. we talked about investing in the jobs of the future. yeah, because fair growth is strong growth. you can't have strong growth without wages rising.

look, the reality in the country, whether you want to accept it or not, or kellyanne or donald trump wants to accept it is we have had record corporate profits and wages are stagnant. so there's a massive disconnect -- >> that's why they voted for somebody to change the whole thing. >> well, they voted for somebody who i think will shake up washington. that is their biggest pain point. i believe that they think washington's broken. he's a bomb thrower. ho she'll shake it up. >> i'm watching this campaign really close, and i was over in ireland before the election and said, don't worry. pennsylvania's the firewall. i know that state. they're never going to go for pa republican. when did it strike you, and then the night before, i get a call from kellyanne, how's pennsylvania looking? and i said, it looks like three points you lose. i just talked to rendell and looks like a three-point loss. what happened in your head over that 24 hours. did something happen at the end? >> i think things were tightening up at the end. and i think that we saw in a couple of states, in a lot of those pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan, by the way, at the end, those three together -- >> why'd they move? >> there are about 80,000 votes

separating us across three states. >> why'd it happen? >> i could look back at probably six to ten different things, chris, and any one of them i could say had some truth in it, probably. i think at the end, i think the comey thing was a factor. the fbi thing, the other thing we had in this race was a variable of third party voters. we always had trump defectors and hillary -- >> don't you hate people who come up to you and say, i voted for gary johnson -- >> i'm sure they're feeling great today. >> i hope they get the message. >> the problem when you have that, it's something you can't control, totally. they're a small group of people, and if they decide to go one way later. and i think his voters solidified his third party defectors and ours didn't, particularly when fbi director comey did what he did 11 days out. we saw momentum break. and their fabritsio did a podcast and said he saw that as well. >> hillary won debates, hillary

won money, hillary ran ground and had the best tv ads. was traveling around, the old vaudeville style of politics, five or six stops a day, was that the smart move in the end? >> i think it probably helped him. he looked -- people were seeing is him every day. we were out there every day, too. we just may have missed a few spots we should have been in. >> i was outside looking in, but people come up to me and they say reasonable things p. would bernie have won? uld bernie have beaten him? >> i don't think so. >> are you sure or not sure? tell me if you're not sure. >> i can't be sure, because he wasn't in the race. >> can you imagine him beating him, trump? >> can i imagine him? look, i don't know. there are things you can't imagine about trump beating him. >> what about joe biden. could he have beaten him? >> i don't know. he's got to carry obama's third term. it doesn't do any good -- >> everybody does it! >> no, you're doing it.

>> people come up to me all the time. they say, bernie or bust, would he have won? i don't know. >> he would say over and over again, i'm a democratic socialist. you tell me you know pennsylvania. do you think people in pennsylvania will vote for a socialist. i think it's easy to say what you think would have happened when the person isn't in the race and doesn't have the spotlight on him. >> i get up and call my brothers. the best thing to do. one of my family members doesn't like hillary, really bad. i was surprised, because i never knew about that. number two, right-to-life thing really popped up out in the 'burbs, my brother said, he never saw so many older people with walkers showing up. it was the supreme court issue. trump, i don't know if he believes a word of it, but he played it. >> but the turnout numbers don't show that. the turnout numbers do show that the third party voters were all over the age of 45 opinion only

2 to 3% of those voted third party. the younger ones, probably some leftover from our primary. >> i'm sorry, i have to go. everybody loves nate silver. but these numbers guys have really gotten to me. i'm not -- >> me too. >> you should be. >> anyway, the grown-up in the campaign, joel benenson. great watching you and great having you on. up next, all week long, we're taking a look back at some of the more revealing things donald trump has said in interviews over the years, including with me. we're calling it "vintage trump" and we have that coming up next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. hello, i'm joy reid in new york. we'll get right back to "hardball" in a minute, but donald trump is now on stage at his rally in michigan. let's listen in. ♪

♪ [ cheers and applause ] p [ cheers and applause ] >> i'm here tonight for one main reason. to say thank you to the incredible people of michigan. [ cheers and applause ] you went out and pounded the pavement, organized your fellow citizens, and propelled to

victory a grassroots movement, the likes of which actually, actually the world, we'll just have to say the country -- the world has never seen. and now we're going to bring back your jobs, we're going to bring back new jobs. i also want to give a very special thank you to our veterans, who have been so incredible. our service members and our military members. boy, dide get their votes, thank you. big numbers. america's men and women in yump are the finest and bravest the world has ever known. so to all who have worn the uniform, i say right now on behalf of all of us, thank. thank you very much.

we will never, ever let you down, believe me. you'll see that with the vets, because we're going to take care of our vets. we're boing to honor your service and sacrifice and that begins with respecting the american flag. we will respect the american flag. that's the flag that our soldiers fought and died for and we're going to protect it. you'll see, we're going to protect it. one man who understands the meaning of service is general "mad dog" mattis. earlier this week, i formally announced my plans to nominate him as your new secretary of defense.

even the democrats are loving him. isn't that nice? what can you say? he's got some record. let me tell you. he's got a record of winning. that's what we want. we want to win. when he had to do battle, whether he agreed with it or not, but when he had to do battle, he won and he won fast. and there was no games. no games. so he's going to be great. secretary of defense. i believe we're in the process of putting together one of the great cabinets that has ever, assembled in our nation's history this evening. >> that's donald trump at his latest rally in grand rapids, michigan. we'll continue to monitor what he says if he makes any. right now let's go back to "hardball with chris matthews."

i just know that i follow my instinct and my instinct, if i follow that instinct, and if i go with my original instinct, as opposed to waiting, procrastinating, and just seeing what happens over a period of time, i have historically done better. i'll do spur of the moment things, and they are the things that tend to work out the best. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was donald trump discussing what he called his good instincts in a 1985 interview. well, his instincts did ultimately help him reach the white house. his off-the-cuff rhetoric often provoked backlash on the campaign trail. in tonight's edition of vintage trump, we'll look at his stance on issues of diversity and culture. speaking about african-americans, trump said that a well-educated african-american is afforded greater opportunity in this country than educated white counterparts. let's hear trump on that. >> a well-educated black has a

tremendous advantage over a well-educated white, in terms of the job market. and i think sometimes a black may think that they don't really have the advantage or this or that, but in actuality, today, currently, it's a great -- i've said on occasion, even about myself, if i were starting off today, i would love to be a well-educated black, because i really do believe they have an actual advantage. >> author of the book, "the true american murder and mercy in texas," nbc's katy tur has covered the trump campaign since day one in the campaign, and adam chandler, senior associate editor at the atlantic. i don't know who to start with. katy, i'll start with you. you know, sometimes people have conversations, different backgrounds, different ethnic groups. i've never heard anybody say that an african-american has a better chance than a white person in this country. in fact, i've heard from people who i respect immensely say that their experience has been that the bar gets raised just as

they're about to go through it. just as they're about to meet the usual standard, the standard gets changed. >> well-heeled circles of privileged people will often say or sometimes say, i've heard it say, that i don't feel like i got into harvard because my place was taken by somebody through affirmative action. that was something that people used to say, maybe a little bit more a decade or two ago, than they are today, at least from what i have heard in just my life. so this was -- you could say that it was more of a product of the time. >> 1989. >> but at the same time, you know, donald trump is donald trump. and this is vintage donald trump. >> you're thinking about this. i don't think people believe this who are people of color. i don't think i hear it from them. >> so let's just -- i'm a writer and i spend a lot of time looking at language in a close way. so i look at that clip and i think it's very revealing. the substance, but also how he speaks. first of all, the "a black." "a black," right? people who use the phrase, "a black," it's already telling you what road we're going down. >> how so?

>> it's dehumanizing. it's usually a pretty good clue to racist beliefs, as a kind of -- >> what's the correct way? >> an african-american, a black person. and i'm just saying, if you go out into society, it's a pretty good -- >> by the way, i know the answer, but i wanted to have you say it. >> but i think more deeply in that clip, it's the -- you know, this phrase that has now kind of gained ground of white explaining. a rich white man -- >> expla'splaining. >> i rich, white man. and he says at some point, so the black people may think, just based on life experiences. and he is explaining to them that their experience or lack of opportunity, donny knows better. >> anyway, in an interview after the release of his book, "the art of the comeback," trump spoke about how he views women. let's catch this. >> i love women. i think they're the most

beautiful things that you can imagine. i think women are just magnificent. i think women are not the weaker sex at all, in many respects. i think they're the stronger sex. i think that -- and i mentioned this strongly in the book that women are more aggressive sexually than men in my opinion. the fact is that these very aggressive folks. unbelievable. and i say far more aggressive than men. >> physical lly aggressive with you? >> physically aggressive. sexually aggressive. women are more aggressive than men. >> can't keep their hands off you? >> i'm not saying me. i'm not even really saying me. i'm just saying that sexually, women are more aggressive than men. and i think men are pretty aggressive. i know i am. >> well, he covered all the bases with that, didn't he. didn't that all seem pretty narcissistic, i'm just asking. it's all about his experience with women, he's obviously advertising here, which he's suggesting is quite grand, to put it lightly. and therefore he knows all about women in that way.

and he's basically saying that they just love him, they can't keep their hands off him. although he can't keep his hands off them, too. it's outrageous, you might say, and it's narcissistic. but he's not running for office back then. >> he's not running for office, and he's also -- he's also just kind of being this brash person we know him to be. the tape shows him over and over again being this huge person. and this is part of it. this is part of the conversation with him. and it doesn't sound all that different from what we see throughout the years. >> katy? >> "things." "most beautiful things." "a black." "things." same vein. >> yeah, i did notice, without casting grand judgment, that all the women he's named to major positions -- and some of them are obviously very credible people, like governor haly and people like that and devos, people like that, who are very big on charter schools, they're all very attractive people. he seems to like that idea. am i the only one who's noticed, this is the way he sort of casts. >> i'm not into the donald trump

women cabinet rating business. but in that clip, there's "things" -- >> you'll leave me all alone on that one? >> totally leave you hanging. even though it's friday. and the second part, where he says, you know, women are magnificent. and women are the better -- i just want to say, one of the defining features -- i've had the chance to travel to a lot of developing countries, traditional societies where women are much more oppressed than here. one of the telltale signs of very -- signs that are very bad to women is that people are constantly putting them on a pedestal. oh, they're our sacred treasures -- >> yeah, look at saudi arabia, women can't drive, because we don't want them to potentially hurt their ovaries. seriously! yeah, there's all sorts of, we need to protect you, because you need to be kept pure and you feed to be kept as beautiful as you are, you need to be kept as a thing. >> okay, we have our own version of that. sort of the george w., we all married up and all of this, women are smarter than we are.

all that barlderdash. >> this was language that was used in the united states, we're talking about not giving women the vote a hundred years ago, that women were too pure for the dirty pool of politics. >> too delicate. >> exactly. >> speaking of women, here's a prominent one, long before mike pence, trump revealed to me in 1999, if he decided to run for 2000 in president, he had another running mate in mind. here he is on her. >> would you consider a woman for your running mate? and if so, who? >> well, i would consider it, and as chris can tell you, i threw out the name of a friend of mine, who i think the world of, she's great. and some people thought it was an incredible idea, some didn't. but, oprah. i said, oprah winfrey. who's really great. and i think we would be a very formidable team. >> another name drop. the two of them together would be formidable. a friend of mine, oprah winfrey. good name drop. go ahead. >> i think it's safe to say this is probably not one of oprah's favorite things. >> the claim that he wanted her? >> right. >> thank you. the roundtable is sticking with

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made on behalf of those living with chronic pain and struggling with oic. we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. tell me something i don't know. >> a lot of people that i know who hate donald trump but are trying to figure out how to live the next four years are really on the fence about courage and are thinking about do we speak out or do we do the open mind kumbaya thing. >> what's courageous, to have an open mind or to slam him? >> to take this man at his word, to understand that many of the

signs of autocracy are things that he's said and starting to do and to not think foolishly that this country and this system is somehow exceptional in its imperviousness to going dark ways. >> i'm more optimistic. i'm looking for the pony in the crap pile myself. >> it's not that deep. i was just going to tell you -- >> dark, it's not deep. >> sources say that the rnc is very close to announcing that romney will take over as chairperson. >> carrier and the deal and across the river in brooklyn carrier was host of the first serious air conditioner, there's a printin factory that printed "judge" magazine which is a forerunner to the onion that had humidity and the illustrations would leak and they had to throw out all the work. so willis carrier created a system to make it cold enough

and less humid and that's a long way of saying you can thank modern journalism for air conditioning. >> thank you. air conditioning changed the entire map of the united states geopolitically. it created the south. places like houston, you can live there now. when we return, let me finish with something that needs to be said about the hero we lost yesterday, john glenn. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [burke] at farmers, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. even a rodent ride-along.

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let me finish tonight with something that needs being said about the american hero we lost yesterday. john glenn proved his patriotism years before and many, many times before he circled the planet and brought america strongly back into the space race. as a fighter pilot in world war ii, he flew 59 missions according to today's "washington post" and in the korean war flew 90 missions returning from one battle with 200 holes in his plane. here he is speaking to me in 2005 about his combat experience. >> when you go into this, you don't go into it separately as one person. you go into it as a unit and you fight as a unit. you're responsible for the people with you whether you're on the ground or in the air and that's just the way it work. marine training is absolutely the best in the world, and you just stick with that training when you get into combat. >> and that was ed mcmahon with

him in that picture. if it weren't enough he set the transcontinental speed record flying coast to coast in less than 3 1/2 hours. in an interview i did with colonel glenn early this year he spoke about his role as the first american to orbit the globe. we were sort of at a low ebb in this country at this time and the soviets at ta time were claiming they were technically superior to the united states and they were using that to invite students into the soviet union by the thousands to get training and head back to their third world country. we were determined to overtake this. on the russian side they would claim their superiority. they had stuff going into orbit while we were still blowing up on the launchpad. project mercury was mainly to catch up. mine was the first to do the orbit for this country and that evened things out with the soviet union in some ways. we were completely open with our program where the soviets were completely secret. they didn't let the press in. and we had the press in by the

thousands. i think the world responded favorably to that kind of treatment. that's john glenn on why the world looked up to us in so many ways in february 1962. and that's hardball for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in" -- >> you're not forgotten anymore. >> the self-proclaimed champion of blue collar workers taps another white collar banker for his cabinet. >> believe me, nobody's forgotten. >> senator jeff merkley joins me on the bait and switch and how the carrier deal keeps getting worse. >> we're going to make a $16 million investment in that factory in indianapolis to automate. what that ultimately means is there will be fewer jobs. >> then hate in america. my interview with the nfl football player whose home was vandalized with racist slurs and the president-elect's name. plus president obama orders a report on the alleged russian