it is 1:00 in the east, 10:00 out west. i'm sheinelle jones at msnbc world headquarters in new york city. syrian government forces tighten

their grip on the city of aleppo today. donald trump is vowing to protect civilians caught in the cross fire. >> not having them come over. we're going to build safe zones in syria. we're going to build safe zones. and we're going to get the gulf states to pay for the safe zones. and we're going to try and help people. we're going to try and we're going to get it done. >> in the last year, in press conference of his administration, president obama also touched on the syrian conflict, now nearly six years old. >> i cannot claim that we have been successful. and so that's something that as is true with a lot of issues and problems around the world, i have to go to bed with every night. but i continue to believe it was the right approach, given what realistically we could get done.

>> on the domestic front, trump will be in mobile, alabama, in just a couple hours for the final stop on his post election thank you tour. let's go now to nbc's kelly o'donnell in mobile today, ahead of trump's event. what's the latest from the trump camp today? >> reporter: good to be with you. a couple news events have come out today. first, a paper statement as we like to say, the official announcement that south carolina congressman, mik oil dany is being topped to lead the budget office, the office of management and budget, filling out the cabinet. in addition, trump has date of birth done a little tweeting today. not talking about russia. today he talked about via twitter, china taking a u.s. navy drone, an underwater drone, a glider is the term for it. and raising the stakes there. this is a couple weeks after trump himself received a phone call of congratulationses from the taiwanese president,

something that broke decades of protocol in the u.s./china relationship, where china sees only one china, meaning taiwan is not a separatenty. so trump is using that as a way to communicate on issues that matter to him. and programs ratcheting some of the tension or laying some ground work with his future relationship with china. there is only one president at a time, so he is still the president in waiting. we're here in an open-air stadium in mobile, alabama, where several hundred people are already here. it's a slow process to get them through security. there has been southern music, southern kind of country/rock band playing for the last hour sore so. this is the last of the calendar year of these thank you tours where he is reliving the campaign, talking about things he wants to do going forward. and in many ways, just having fun with supporters. alabama is also home to jeff sessions, the senator here, who has been nominated by donald

trump to be the attorney general in his administration. subject to confirmation. we expect jeff sessions and his roots here and his connection, trump and the trump administration, as this unfolds. sheinelle? >> kelly o'donnell, thank you for checking in with us there in mobile. joining me knew, seema meta, and the congressional reporter for "the hill." good afternoon to you guys. >> thanks. >> seema, with trump tweeting about china and the drone incident, what's conventional wisdom on that? is he tampering with all of this before he's in office or touching on it and then i shouldn't mention it necessarily, but a lot of people are tweeting about the fact he spelled unprecedented wrong. it was kind of messy, frankly. >> it's what we have seen throughout the campaign. and so it's not -- i don't know that it's surprising any more. but it's a different kind of president-elect than we have seen before, in that he is used to communicating directly with the supporters and doesn't look like he has any intentions of

stopping. and we saw that with the china tweet, with his tweets in the last couple days about russia where he sort of for the first time acknowledged there is a possibility they tried to interfere with our election. so it's a continuation of what we have seen where he enjoys communicating without the media. not even the filter of a spokesperson. but just directly with his supporters. >> and molly, your job is going to be so much fun as you cover capitol hill. i keep hearing people say this is not how washington works. this is not how we do it. but frankly, i don't think he cares. or what is the reaction? is there a sense this could hurt relations? there are implications to these tweets. >> there are implications to these tweets and he doesn't care. and actually, when he was elected, i just thought, oh, my gosh, we have so many stories to cover now. this is not how business is done in washington, d.c. trump is coming into office even though we have this big kum ba yah moment of the republicans trying to prop him up. he still has a lot of people in the congress that don't like him. that really take kiissue with

things he had done in the election. members of the foreign affairs committee, once he becomes president, i don't think they're going to hold back. look at john mccain, lindsey graham, marco rubio, these are people who have concerns with the picks he has made already for secretary of state. you know, this goes into that whole idea of trying to do diplomacy via twitter. it's just they're having concerns about it and they're going to speak out. >> i want to talk to you guys about russia hacking. molly, are you concerned that sometimes he tries to almost change the conversation, whatever the news of the day is, to whatever he wants it to be. almost divert attention? and we have to be careful about that. >> i -- well, that is politics, right? i have so many -- i have so many talking points in my e-mail box, and press releases. he just happens to be way more effective right now than any other politicians out there. yes, he is trying to change the conversation.

i don't think people will divert their attention entirely away from what's going on in the background. but i think there will be that temptation. and i mean, there was that temptation during the campaign. look at all of the coverage he received for his tweets. and, you know, people just wanted to follow him. because you never knew what he was going to say. >> seema, i'll bring new and let's talk about the russian hacking. president obama's response. in your opinion, could he have done more about russia, or what are you hearing? or is it a situation where really, you can't win either way? >> right. one of the things i thought was interesting, actually, the president-elect tweeted, why didn't the administration bring this up earlier when, in fact, several agencies did bring it up in early october. in terms of the administration, in terms of the president, a couple weeks ago or a couple weeks before the election, they thought hillary clinton was going to win. so it seemed they were content to kick the can down the road and deal with this later. this is giving the president-elect the opportunity to say hey, they have sour grapes. i think that it's -- i do wonder if they wish they had played it differently. >> almost like you're reading my

notes. look at this, john podesta, the chairman of clinton's campaign had a scathing machine oh to the fbi over their response. here's part of what he wrote in a "washington post" op-ed. he said comparing the fbi's response to the e-mail scandal with the lackadaisical response, shows that something is deeply broken at the fbi. he's basically accusing the bureau of being disproportional. what do you think -- you used the phrase "sour grapes." >> hillary clinton thursday night brought up these two very issues. and it seemed like she was really -- possibly blaming her loss on these two issues. i think -- i question whether that's a -- we don't know the extent of the russian hacking. we'll find out probably next year. there is also -- she was saying that especially with the last comey letter about her e-mails raising new concerns days before the election. this happened at a time when swing state voters were making up their mind, which is true.

with that said, states were not swing states, states like michigan and wisconsin that have voted democratic basically my expire life that ended up voting for donald trump. i do think these two issues are something people will be studying for a long time. but i think that to focus slowly on these two issues without focusing on there are a large number of voters who sat this election out or did not support her would be a disservice to the democratic party. they need to look at their message and their connection with voters. >> another clip getting attention this morning with first lady michelle obama reflecting on her husband's lega legacy. here's what she told oprah. >> your husband's administration, everything, the election, was all about hope. do you think that this administration achieved that? >> yes. i do. because we feel the difference now. >> yeah. >> see, now we're feeling what not having hope feels like.

you know? >> you know what, another journalist i talked to earlier today said a lot of people are actually are feeling hope because they voted for donald trump. so it depends on the glass you wear. >> exactly. and the thing is, if they had all of this hope, they would have probably voted for hillary clinton to continue what president obama started. and i think that that's probably the disconnect and the frustration that some democrats up on capitol hill that i've talked to have. that hillary clinton just isn't barack obama. and barack obama was his own kind of entity among democrats. he has his own popularity. in fact, he talked about this in the -- the press conference yesterday, saying that, you know, i wish that my popularity had transferred to hillary clinton. but, you know, i wasn't just appealing to latte-drinking liberals, essentially. and the thing is, some democrats wish he did more to involve the democratic party. he did bring in a lot of money, but for his own brand. kind of like the trump brand. he's not really a republican of

the republican party. but he is donald trump. and so it will be interesting to see going forward how donald trump works with the republicans if he, in fact, does the same way that obama did with the democrats. >> and it's an interesting point, molly. seema, another journalist said earlier, it's almost like these are candidates and of themselves, the brand, barack obama, and hope and donald trump with whatever he's representing. i don't want to say transcending party, but in some ways, exactly what happened. >> they are sort of singular candidates. both did not fit the mold with people we have seen elected to the white house in the past. they did have their own brand and they have -- obviously very, very different men in terms of policy. but in terms of the way they connected with their supporters, with their base, with voters, the way they inspired people, again, for very different reasons, they very unique. >> molly, were you going to say something? i can give you the last word. >> i was just going to say, it will be interesting because they are so unique, and obama was so unique, it will be interesting to see how trump works with congress in order to achieve his

agenda. because keep in mind, president obama resorted to a lot of executive actions towards the end, because of the relations that -- the frayed relations he had with congress. so that will be key to see how this new president comes in and does business. a business that he says he's going to do brilliantly at. or it will be beautiful. we'll see how beautiful it will be. >> to be continued, got dot, dot, dot. good conversation, thank you. >> thank you. happening now, a blast of cold air causing rain and wet roads to freeze across the eastern u.s., triggering airport delays in the nation's capital and major traffic pileups and car crashes in maryland, virginia and north carolina. let's check in with nbc's morgan radford in new york. what are the conditions like there? >> sheinelle, right now, 29 degrees out here in new york. it was snowing earlier this morning and then that snow turned into freezing rain. it began to coat the streets here, part of what we see happen

throughout the rest of the country. major traffic accidents, for example, in baltimore where there were 55 vehicles piled on top of each other. still clearing 40 vehicles off the highway as we speak. that has people all throughout the northeast and along the eastern see board being hyper vigila vigilant. take a listen to how people are preparing. >> we have to account for -- >> common sense. i mean, you just have to be smart about everything. make sure that you are equipped in your cars. major sure you do have a shovel in the car. a scraper in the car, whatever. make sure you have adequate footing or boots and clothing. just so that you should run into a situation that you're prepared. >> this is the north. i mean, this isn't florida. so you have to be ready for pretty much anything. >> reporter: you heard her mention the north. but i want to take you back down to baltimore. in fact, we have live pictures of that accident right there. that's kind of the carnage, the chaos you're seeing there on the

highway. we understand that has been a deadly situation on these roads. but it's not just the roads. it's also the runways. there has also been hundreds of airlines that have had to cancel their flights, and dulles international airport right there in washington, d.c., actually had to close down those runways, simply because they were too icy. that's what we're seeing people react to today, as they're trying to bundle up, stay covered up and layered up as they're heading out. sheinelle? >> morgan radford, thank you. we'll continue to follow this 50-car-pileup. what a scene in maryland causing a deadly accident around the country. hang with us this afternoon. president obama vows retaliation against russia for the alleged hacking. what form will that take? former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, joins us next. >> our goal continues to be to send a clear message to russia or others not to do this to us. because we can do stuff to you.

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it's unclear whether the pileup was caused by the incident. we will continue to follow this pileup, 50-car pileup in baemt. now to the story making headlines nearly 24 hours later. in his final news conference of the year, president obama hammered russia for revelations of hacking during the election.

>> the russians can't change us or significantly weaken us. they are a smaller country, a weaker country, their economy doesn't produce anything that anybody wants to buy except oil and gas and arms. mr. putin can weaken us just like he's trying to weaken europe if we start buying into notions that it's okay to intimidate the press. or lock up dissidents. >> joining me now, michael mcfaul, msnbc contributor and former ambassador of the united states of america to the russian federation. good afternoon to you. >> thanks for having me. >> let's dig in here. i want to get your reaction to what president obama just said. is this kind of rhetoric dangerous? should we be careful about demonizing russia, or is he right on here? >> oh, i listened to the entire press conference. i think most of what he said about russia, i agree with. i disagree slightly about, you

know, presuming that russia is a weak and fading power. it may be a weak power, but has a lot of capabilities, as we know, including cyber capabilities. but even more so, it has intentionality. that is president putin is ready to use these instruments in a way that sometimes other countries, including our own, are not. and that makes russia a dangerous country. >> michael, one of the big questions being raised by those skeptical of these reports, share the evidence. we have been talking about in this afternoon. in your take, can intelligence officials share proof to back their reports? and if so, what would that even look like? >> well, first of all, i want to be clear. from my point of view, i've been following this story very closely. the evidence is overwhelming. some of it is already in the public domain. so i encourage your listeners, your viewers here, to go look at the crowd strike report that was put out, and i think the evidence there is pretty overwhelming about the dnc hack. that's a private company that

already published that. and at the same time, i agree that the u.s. government and president obama should publicize more. he should declassify this information before he leaves, to help convince the skeptics of what happened. i know these people. i worked with these people in the white house and in the intelligence community. i've talked to them about it. they're overwhelmingly convinced they now have to help convince everybody else. and i would just remind you, he's done that before. when i worked at the white house in 2009, we made the very difficult decision to declassify information about the iranian weapons program. so that we could then make the case to the american people and the world for sanctions. i think he needs to do exactly that same thing now before he leaves office. >> so then, michael, how do you explain the dynamic or is there a dynamic or a tense one with president-elect donald trump refuting evidence or saying he wants to see the hard evidence and we should pull back a little bit. is that going to be a challenge? these are people who will be

working with very soon. >> absolutely. that's why i think the president should do this before he leaves office. president obama, that is. and i also think president-elect trump should reconsider his positions. i don't think it serves his interests to have ambiguity about what the russians did in 2016. he didn't orchestrate that. in my view. i don't think he had anything to do with it. nor do i believe that it's useful for us to say, well, the russians made trump president. >> when you say that, then, of course, he doesn't have an interest in knowing the truth. but if we set that aside, we let him become president, we say, maybe there were some fouls, maybe there were some bad calls in this match, to use a sports metaphor. but just because there were some bad calls by the referees or some interventions that swayed the outcome, it doesn't mean that we're going to declare the other side the victor. and i think that's important here. so we can set aside the politics

and really focus on the national security issues. because this is not going away. we have another election coming in 2020 for president of the united states. >> i'm glad you mentioned this. is goes along with what i want to play for you. new reports saying the fbi agrees with the cia's assessment that russia interfered. but peter king says it's more basic than that. take a listen. >> all of the intelligence agencies have briefed us and said they do not know what the motive was, be other than to just disrupt the election and create doubt among the american people so that no matter who won, it would be a cloud over that person. so putin or the russians have succeeded. right now the media and certain democrats in congress and certain elements of the intelligence community are doing what putin wanted to do. and that's to put a doubt and cloud over the president-elect. >> is this exactly what putin wants, do you agree? >> no, i disagree.

>> you do? >> i know it's hard to understand intentionality from president putin. that's a very hard analytic problem. but i -- you know, i've watched putin, i know what his attitudes are towards trump. he likes trump because trump supports policies he supports. and he dislikes secretary clinton, and i've heard him talk about her directly, because he doesn't like the policies she had. there should be no confusion that the wikileaks data dump hurt secretary clinton. and therefore, helped president -- then candidate trump. there is no other way to understand that. that came from the russians. and i also agree that the additional factor of a cloud over our election social security another russian objective that has also been achiev achieved. >> michael mcfaul, thank you for your perspective this afternoon. >> thanks for having me. back to that breaking news from baltimore. we are following the latest on a deadly accident. joining me now on the phone is

chief roman clark, public information officer for baltimore city fire. thank you for calling in. i'll let you take it away with what happened here. we're looking at live pictures. can you tell us what led to this? >> currently right now, as far as the cause of this incident, it's under investigation. we got a call around 5:03:00 a.m. this morning for an incident on i-95 north. upon arriving on the scene, we had a -- roughly around 55-car pileup. this is cars, tractor-trailers, all piped up on the northbound side of i- 95. we brought in emergency equipment to assist with the incident, and we shut down the southbound side. so basically, we had 95, both north and south, shut down for quite some time. out of this crash, we did come up with two people who were basically dead at the scene. and we transmitted approximately about 15 people into area

hospitals. there were also people that actually, to my understanding, went to hospitals on their own. some good samaritans who could get their cars out took some people to the hospitals, as well, is what we have been told. >> can you kind of help me clear this up? we're hearing two different things or maybe both actually happened. we were hearing that two people were killed, as you mentioned, and more than a dozen injured when a gasoline tanker skidded off the interstate there? is that true, and exploded? >> there was a gasoline tanker that was involved in this crash, unable to determine whether or not the tanker was the one that caused the initial problem. at this time, what we see is that the tanker was just a part of the crash itself. and it did go over the jersey wall and it did explode, yes. >> these wick pictures are hard to see here. how are the roads? obviously icy, but in conditions like this, baltimore is no stranger to this kind of weather. i'm sure the salt trucks were out early. is it a matter of someone going too fast, or what happened here?

>> well, like i said earlier, the cause of this incident is strictly under investigation right now. as far as the roads are concerned, we've got over 200 pounds of salt down on our roads, and the temperature is beginning to rise now. which is making things a lot better. and we're moving forward. >> what is -- i think the message that you want to tell people? a lot of times when they see accidents like this, they're turning on for the first time and hearing what's happening there. you say that the roads are better there, or obviously you have to be careful because you can hit icy patches. or what would you want to say? >> the message that we're asking the people is basically, if you do not have to come out, we're asking the people to more or less stay off the roads for right now until things get better, until the temperature rises a little bit more. and gets out of the freezing zone. and then, you know, if you have to come out, be then that would be the time to come out. also what we're asking, if you think there is anyone, a loved one of yours that may have been

traveling on 95, and you may be looking for them, you can call 410-396-yard. y-a-r-d. that's 410-396-yard. and someone in the center can probably help you if you have a name of a person that you may think was transported into one of the hospitals. >> and finally, chief, we're looking at these pictures here. when did this happen? obviously we're not seeing a lot of people in the vehicles. and then how did this play out? did you guys have crews to kind of help people out and off the highways, or how did this play out and what time? >> we actually this crews that were assisting people to get out of the cars on the highway. we also had good samaritans that came up and were assisting us with getting people out. as far as the people that were kind of like stranded on the highway, we basically had asked them to stay in their cars, more or less shelter in place within their vehicles and conserve their gasoline. >> good advice for people

watching in that area to certainly stay home. chief roman clark, i know it's a busy time. thank you for calling in this afternoon. >> we you it. and our hearts and prayers go out to those involved in this horrendous incident. this is one of the worst that baltimore has ever seen. >> we echo that to all of the families involved there. thank you, chief. >> thank you. the electoral challenges to donald trump's election. will they make any real difference? still ahead, a renegade elector joins us in just a few minutes.

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efyx [burke] hot dog. seen it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ welcome back. i'm sheinelle jones here at msnbc world headquarters in new york. back to that breaking news from baltimore. authorities say two people were killed and more than a dozen injured when a gasoline tanker skidded off an interstate highway in baltimore and exploded. there was also a pileup involving more than 50 vehicles. so right now it's unclear whether the pileup started before the tanker crash or whether it was cause td by the

incident for more on the election hacking, another big story this morning, we want to take you to russia where the kremlin wants proof of the claims. let's check in with chief foreign correspondent, richard engel. any official response since yesterday's news conference? >> reporter: the silence has been deafening here in moscow. there has been nothing from vladimir putin, no senior officials from the kremlin have commented. the state-will you know and state-influenced media are barely touching the story at all. if they are mentioning it, in the fuse cast, it is the fifth or sixth item, and when it is given that scant coverage, it is only to say that these are ridiculous fabrications, an attempt by the intelligence community to insult russia by president obama to, cast doubts upon russian power. and that this is an attempt, final attempt, by the people who still support hillary clinton to explain why she didn't win the

presidency. so no, they are not commenting at all. i think they are waiting it out. the kremlin believes that they just have a few more weeks until they are going to have a potentially much better relationship with the incumbent president -- with the incoming president, donald trump. and i think they're taking it on the chin. pretending almost that this didn't happen. and they think, well, we just have a few more weeks, and then the new chapter begins. so why create a fuss now? >> richard, are you able to talk to people there to speak maybe perhaps the mood among the russian people about all of this? >> reporter: of course. we have been talking to people. we went to a youth group. we have been talking to people on the street. most people here seem to be agreeing with the government's logic, that the government wasn't responsible, that vladimir putin himself wouldn't be involved personally in a hacking campaign. however, cyber experts here abroad in europe in particular say that russia has a very long

history of using information ops, using hacking, using propaganda, as a soft power tool. that it has done it in the past ten years or so, about 14 times to silence its enemies, to influence political process -- the political process in eastern europe, in germany, when there was a hack of the german parliament. and that each time it has been used quite effectively in ukraine, in georgia, lithuania, that the kremlin becomes more bold, and is -- is finding that it is an effective tool of power. but here in moscow, no. most people are accepting the government's line, it seems. >> richard, really quickly. the journalist that i am, at least comment on the fact, were you in an art class and were they painting pictures of donald trump? did i see that correctly? >> reporter: you did see that correctly. it was not an art class.

we were at a kremlin-backed youth group. and what i think is so striking about this, this is a patriotic group. it used to be called norby. norby was then disband and had it is now called the network, or just network and it is -- when you go there, there are pictures of vladimir putin almost on every wall. lots of very patriotic slogans and they have an art space where young artists can come, and an artist there who generally painted flattering portraits of vladimir putin has now found a new inspiration for her work. and she was painting portraits of donald trump. so i think that is a definite sign of a changing mood here that we highlighted last night. and i think that picture is on the web, as well. >> richard engel, thank you for checking in with us this afternoon. >> absolutely. why an lecter doesn't want to vote for donald trump or

hillary clinton and why a judge is telling her she better vote for clinton. at the marine mammal center, the environment is everything.

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such good and important work for the environment. together, we're building a better california. breaking news and a seizure of a u.s. underwater drone by china earlier this week in the south china sea. hans nichols is at the white house with more. >> the pentagon secured an agreement to return this unarmed, unmanned, excuse me, under water vehicle to the united states. it hasn't been returned yet. this is the pentagon, peter cook, president secretary, making this announcement, saying they have secured an agreement to return this drone. thinking of this as a glider, underwater vehicle, basically a weather station, collects things like water temperature. throughout the last part of the week, mainly yesterday, we heard a lot of views of the pentagon, mainly this was a result of an act of an unprofessional navy

acting unprofessionally. that was their general view. it looks like this situation has been diffused, and it won't seem to cloud, at least to any extent, new relations with the trump campaign. as we know, there is some fraught waters there and mr. trump himself tweeting about what he was saying an unprecedented act. >>. >> thank you for that update. hans nichols, thank you. a crisis of conscience. why an elector does not want to vote for hillary clinton, but a judge says she better. and next hour, lessons from the lost. democrats wonder what went wrong and how to make it right in 2020.

♪ ♪ see ya next year. this season, start a new tradition. experience the power of infiniti now, with leases starting at $319 a month. infiniti. empower the drive. new trouble in the last-ditch effort by two colorado electors to stop donald trump from becoming president. their effort failed when a colorado supreme court declined to hear the case. poly vacca and robert said they

shouldn't be forced to vote for hillary clinton. the presidential candidate who won their state. the electors hoped to vote for a republican alternative to donald trump. that move part of a plan to deny him the 270 electors needed to win the presidency. let's ask poly baca. thank you for talking to me this afternoon. >> great to be here. thank you for inviting me. >> the courts shut down your case in colorado and washington where a similar suit cast filed. does that effectively end the complain to stop trump? >> not at all. we are dedicated to make sure we follow the constitution and we as electors have the right to vote our conscience. and, you know, of course robert and i both, if -- if we could get 37 republican electors to support hillary clinton, that is our preference. but knowing that that is would

see fit to support. and instead of donald trump. >> here's -- >> if that would happen. we would be willing to support that candidate. >> the reality is, if you don't follow the rules and vote for clinton, you could be removed, replaced or prosecuted. clearly that's a risk you're willing to take? >> absolutely. >> so then even -- >> i really am committed to my country. because i love my country. i am really willing to take that risk. and that's because for the first time in my life, i have been involved in presidential politics since 1960. and for the first time in my life, i fear for my country. because of this man. because i do not believe he will put country first. i think he will put his business first. and will use our country to make a profit for his own personal

means. >> are you undermining democracy, though, by trying to refuse trump the electors he won essentially fair and square if in your state -- or the people who voted for hillary clinton? >> not at all. >> why not? >> we have a democracy and we have millions of elected officials. we elect people from sheriff to coroner to state legislators, school board members, members of congress. they're all elected, be one person, one vote. the only position in the entire country that does not reflect, does not honor the provision of one person, one vote, is the president of the united states. that's a travesty. and so in order to fulfill the responsibility given us by the united states constitution, we are trying as electors to correct that. it would be -- you know, secretary clinton received more votes than any -- for president than any person ever has received in the history of our

country. and yet is not going to be inaugurated. i think that's a travesty. >> but you didn't want to vote for her. >> that can't happen. no, no, no. that's not correct. that's not correct at all. if we could get 37 republican electors to vote for mrs. clinton, and reflect the will of the popular vote, then, of course, i want to vote for her. but i do note -- because of my fear for my country, i am willing to put country before party. and vote for whomever the republicans would come up with that would be an alternative to mr. trump. >> so is it -- >> i could vote for senator kaine or governor romney or any of the republican potential candidates that really i believe would be good presidents. and would put country first. >> i have to wrap. but really quickly, polly, what's your next move? >> to continue fighting the fight and going forward and seeing what we can do for the future of our country. >> polly baca, thank you for

talking with me this afternoon. >> thank you for having me name. what's being called a political coup. why would someone suggest it's giving donald trump the strategy for undermining dchls? that's next this holiday, the real gift isn't what's inside the box... it's what's inside the person who opens it. give your loved ones ancestrydna, the simple dna test that can tell them where they came from -by revealing their ethnic mix. it's a gift as original as they are. order now at ancestrydna.com. g new cars. you're smart. you already knew that. but it's also great for finding the perfect used car. you'll see what a fair price is, and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. now you're even smarter. this is truecar.

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a power grab in north carolina, protesters demonstrated at the state house in raleigh friday as the outgoing republican governor signed the first of several measures limiting the powers of his soon-to-be successor democrat roy cooper. cooper will challenge the move and is threatening to sue. joining me charlie sykes. the measures would shift the new governor of his ability to make key appointments to state and local boards, slash the number of government workers he can hire and fire, and the first time, would require law makers to approve his cabinet. is this what voters want from

the people they elect? >> no. we are obviously not living in an era where people are gracious losers, are they? any time you have a raw power grab like this, it tends to come back to bite you in the butt some other time. i guess i'm seeing this on both sides, many attempt to overturn the presidential election what's happening in north carolina. at some point if we keep breaking down these norms if we keep going for the political axe every time we don't get our way, don't be surprised when our increasingly tribal politics becomes more and more chaotic and i ddevisive. >> this could give donald trump a strategy for undermining democracy. a quick glance at his cabinet nomination suggests a similar path. what about other states? >> again, this is part of the when you go at a ramming

speed -- the democrats pushed through obamacare christmas eve, ruling with the phone and pen. this radicalizes the tactics, and what will happen is people will sit around and say how far can we push the envelope? there will be people who will defend them saying the democrats started this. they began it. that it's moment where you say what are the rules? what are the protocols? all this talk about a constitutional system of government, is it just raw, political power plays? >> let's talk about that "new york times" op-ed piece you wrote about the backlash you received for nip or trump. one staple of every radio talk show was the bias of the mainstream media this was a target-rich environment. we learned this year we succeeded in persuading our audiences to ignore and discount any information from the mainstream media and through

time we succeeded deledge mizing the media all together. did this set us up for problem of fake news? is that a fair question? >> yeah. it is a totally fair question. i think we've been focusing on fake news. fake news is a problem. the much broader problem is the fact we have a gullible electorate. we have an electorate having a hard time distinguishing between what is true and what is false. we created these alternative reality silos on the left and right. stories that do not confirm the bias and do not penetrate. you saw this in this campaign. why a lot of the scandals and gaffes didn't seem to register. people were not willing to accept any information outside of their own ideological bubble. unfortunately, i think this is going to get worse. >> i was going to ask you that. i am racking my brain, how do you fix that? we don't have that much time on the universe. seriously, where would you even start?

>> that is an excellent question. i think some of the worst and most reckless voices have been empowered and emboldened by this campaign. the kind of conversation we are having here right now, i'm a conservative talking with you and we probably need a few more dialogues like that. >> i want to share a little of another piece you wrote last month for politico magazine. you said its role is to keep the centers in line. since there are two deeply invested to be outraged, any failures or reversals from trump world, the anger will be focused on attacking the left and launching the saboteurs and dissenters on the right. this is a hot topic that people are so angry, they don't want to listen. >> they don't want to. it's going to make debate more difficult. if you stray from the ideological agendas, there is

going to be the flying monkeys and trolls released to attack you. it's going to be very difficult for members of congress to break with the trump administration because they will be perceived to be betraying the cause. that's one reason why i think this is going to get worse. >> this is a good conversation. i hope we can continue it in the days and months ahead. thank you. that will do it for me. i'm sheinelle jones. a young girl and her mother making a plea for help to first lady michelle obama.

hello, i'm bet ty nguyen lie from nbc world headquarters in new york.