reality is fun, michael hirschhorn, thank you for watching. i am ari melber. and you can e-mail me about reality tv or the demise of everything we're doing at ari@msnbc.com, feel free. "hardball" starts right now. first family feud. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm joy reid in tonight for chris matthews. once upon a time, bill clinton and donald trump were friends, or at least friendly. they golfed together, trump donated money to the clinton foundation, he defended bill clinton in the press. bill and hillary were even guests at trump's third wedding to melania. then came an election where donald trump attacked hillary clinton as crooked, dishonest, unstable, unhinged, a criminal, a nasty woman, and oh, yeah, the devil. he also paraded out a series of women who had accused bill

clinton of abuse in an attempt to humiliate him and his wife. yesterday, it was reported that donald trump and bill clinton spoke by phone the day after the election. clinton was reportedly surprised that trump acted cordial on the call, like it was 15 years ago. for clinton, raw feelings remain. in reference to trump, he recently told a local newspaper in westchester county, he doesn't know much. one thing he does know is how to get angry white men to vote for him. this morning, trump did what trump does, he hit back, tweeting, bill clinton stated that i called him after the election. wrong! he called me with a very nice congratulations. he doesn't know much, especially how to get people, even with an unlimited budget, out to vote in the vital swing states and more. they focused on the wrong states. later today, clinton conceded he was the one who called trump after the election, not the other way around. the question remains, why is donald trump spending his first full day afterfficially becoming president-elect fighting with bill clinton on twitter? david cay johnston is the author of "the making of donald trump,"

and robert acosta is with "the washington post" and an msnbc analyst, and michael steele is the former chairman of the republican national committee and an msnbc political analyst. all right. david cay johnston, i go to you first on this. why does trump trump? why can't he stop doing this? because to donald, other people are simply items and objects. they're not human beings. donald is entirely transactional. and whatever gets donald what he wants, he will do. there's no moral core to donald trump. so, you know, not paying bills, attacking somebody as terrible, whom you said just recently was wonderful, it doesn't have any meaning to who donald trump is, inside. and he's done this throughout his whole life. you can be his friend today and you can be the worst person in the world tomorrow and his friend again next week. it depends on what's in his

interest at the moment. >> and it depends who's the last person to talk to him and who's being nice to him in the moment. he thought nothing well of barack obama until barack obama was nice to him and then he thought barack obama was great. inside of trump world, there's the rumors that there are two kind of camps. there's bannon world, which still shocks me that someone like bannon could be mere the white house, but he is, and pence world. do either of those camps feel concerned about donald trump's inability to control himself? >> for now, the relationship between the bannon camp and the priebus camp, the populist and the mainstream, seems to be pretty functional, based on my reporting that they're both contributing to discussions behind the scenes about the cabinet picks. but that dynamic will certainly be challenged early next year, once trump assumes aufts and he has to deal with governing and not just picking personnel. >> but are they worried that he can't stop tweeting at people and getting into twitter beefs? >> one of the reasons another key player, vice

president-elect, mike pence, is well regarded within trump's circle is he doesn't push trump when it comes to the president-elect's behavior. and one understanding, sometimes explic implicit of those around trump is you do not push the president-elect to change how he uses social media. that's how he communicates with his base and even if it's erratic, he's unwilling to do so. >> so i think paul ryan assumes it's going to be a field day for paul ryan. who do you think ends up with more control over the agenda? paul ryan or donald trump or have they now fused their agendas and both want to privatize medicare? >> well, i think robert's got his finger on it through his reporting, that it is a battle to come. everybody so sort of kumbaya around this or that pilappointm, which in the long or short run doesn't mean that much. what it boils down to is the policy initiative. if you're going to throw $1 trillion on the table for

infrastructure, is paul ryan going to sign off on that? if paul ryan says, look, we do want to address medicare and medicaid and the president doesn't, does the west wing balk at that? that's where the bottle lines will be drawn, and whether it's the priebus camp or the bannon camp, however you want to identify them, the thing is, the president has to make some really tough early decisions. and the question becomes, yes, you have this team of rivals that you've created around you. that may work in business. in government, i'm really curious to see if that worked, because it's so personal, it's so much about turf, and it's so much about a lot of things that businessmen don't waste their time on, that politicians do, that you wonder if this administration starts hemorrhaging early, or do they find that smooth, slick space that they can then move through some big pieces of legislation right out of the box? that, i think, joy, will be one of the early tests for donald trump and his leadership style.

>> i think since the $1 trillion infrastructure bill is tax cuts, with i think that will be something paul ryan will like. meanwhile today, there's a report from the center for public integrity that a texas charity is offering access to the president-elect, in return for a sizable donation. according to the report, trump's two sons, donald jr. and eric, are listed among the charity's directors. a brochure for the event on inauguration weekend in washington lists some of the benefits that donors get in exchange for $1 million. they include a private reception and photo opportunity for 16 guests, with president donald j. trump, and a multi-day hunting and/or fishing excursion for four guests with donald trump jr. and/or eric trump and team, unquote. in a at the same time this afternoon, a spokesperson for the trump transition said, quote, the opening day event and details that have been reported are merely initial concerns that have not been approved by the trump family. meanwhile, a spokesperson for the event says the initial brochure was a, quote, work in

progress. a new brochure omits any mention of meeting trump or h sons. robert acosta, nbc news got ahold of the actual filing for the supposed foundation, the charity that was filed on december 14th, and donald and eric trump are listed on i want as directors. is there any conceivable way that their two friends or colleagues could have listed them as directors of this foundation would have the they will having any idea. >> there's no doubt based on our reporting here at "the washington post" that the trump family, specifically the sons, are involved with the charity, supporters of the charity, associated with the charity. the question that's in contention right in and out from the trump transition is whether they had any role in setting up this kind of charitable donation for access arrangement. there's been that denial that's been issued. but it's one of these murky territories the trump organization and especially the family is encounter during this transition period, moving from the private to the public sector. they're going to probably need a

lawyer with them each and every step of the way. >> david cay johnston, just them saying that it isn't true is no evidence that it isn't true. the only fact we have on the table is the filing for the foundation with those two trump's sons name on it. i don't understand how them saying, we didn't do it, gets them out of hot water here. >> this is a tactic you're going to see throughout the trump presidency. when i saw this initially, i thought, this is from "the onion accoun onion," it can't be true. even the rutrumps are not that crass. then rain down the documents. what you're seeing here now is, well, we were just discussing this. well, why were you even discussing something like that? particularly when donald trump complained about what he called for pay-for-play. this is blatantly pay-for-play and it's part of donald trump's utter contempt that he expressed throughout the campaign for constitutional government.

you know, if you could get donald trump on your show and ask him, what does the second article of the constitution say, he wouldn't be able to tell you. >> throughout the campaign, to your very point, trump did attack the hillary clinton for selling access to the state department. let's watch him do it. >> the veil was pulled back on a vast criminal enterprise run out of the state department by hillary clinton. more than half of the meetings hillary clinton took as secretary of state with people outside government were clinton foundation donors. favors and access were granted to those who wrote checks. she put the secretary of state up for sale. hillary is the one who engaged in a corrupt pay-for-play scheme at the state department. we're going to end government corruption. hillary clinton ran the state department like a failed leader in a third world country.

she sold favors and access thin exchange for cash. >> michael steele, if irony still has a meaning, that was it. i can't -- it's hard to believe that donald trump can say that, a couple months ago, and then literally have these things happening. are there any consequences for anything anymore? does reality exist anymore? >> i think this is going to be to the points that were already made the new reality for washington and for a lot of people who track this stuff, particularly in the press. the press corps is going to have a field day writing about this stuff but the -- how it resonates with voters is really going to be the test of time. does it accumulate in such a way that people go, you know, we really do have a problem with this. you said at one point this is what hillary clinton did, but you're now doing the exact same thing or something very similar. and it doesn't right now seem to matter to a lot of people. but there are some big red flags

here. i think robert costa had it right that, you know, they're going to need a lot of lawyers to deal with this. and it would not surprise me if you see someone bring some type of action to force some of this to a head for the congress or somebody to respond, because i don't see how you can set up these types of operations long-term, joy, and not have a consequence come from them, whether it's a global one, as we've said, potentially, with russia, for example, or something closer to home, like with the foundation. >> yeah, just the perception is out there among foreign leaders that they can buy access to the white house, by giving to the trump's sons' foundation. it is really troubling. one of the other things i find really troubling, donald trump's incoming national security adviser, michael flynn, he's been a lightning rod already for his past comments about islam and his affinity for vladimir putin and conspiracy theories. today "the new york times" reports that he met with a right-wing group, a far-right

group from austria. according to the times, the leader of the austrian free right freedom party visited general flynn a few weeks ago inside trump tower in new york. the freedom party was founded in the 1950s by former nazis. hmm. robert costa, you know, we've talked about this before. the bannon wing, of what is now the bannon wing of the republican party and its affinity for this sort of eth ethnonationethn ethnonationethn ethnonationali ethnonationalism, now you have that being brought right into trump tower. at some point, is there a reckoning for people like bannon and flynn, particularly for flynn? >> throughout the campaign, we saw trump and bannon to an extent associate the trump campaign with this global populism, the visits from nigel farage, during and after the campaign to trump tower. now with flynn meeting with a lot far-right populist party in europe and austin ria. you see the trump campaign in the trump orbit really try to engage with that world, but there are consequences,

especially if you're moving into elected office, into the presidency, to associate not with foreign leaders and heads of state, but heads of foreign parties that aren't really in power and it could have very complicated, even controversial associations. it's a territory many incoming presidents the not wade into, but trump, just because of who he is and who flynn is, they seem to be willing to do it. >> yeah, parties founded by nazis are a little bit more controversial. we'll so if that ever -- if there's any consequences for that. thank you very much, david cay johnston, robert costa, and michael steele. coming up the day after three attacks in europe, we asked, what does this mean for the u.s.? and how will donald trump as president deal with the new global threat? and later, the north carolina general assembly has been called into session tomorrow to possibly repeal the so-called bathroom bill. how are the republicans there prepared -- i mean, how far are the republicans there prepared to go to cling to power? this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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president barack obama today took a preemptive step to protect the environment and potentially thwart the pro-drilling incoming administration. issuing a ban on all new oil and gas drilling in u.s. federal waters anywhere between the atlantic ocean and the chesapeake bay. the president has designated those areas indefinitely off-limits to future leasing. now, this is a joint action between the u.s. and canada, and canadian prime minister justin trudeau is also placing a ban on new leases in canada's arctic waters. to get around the potentialf donald trump simply reversing his executive order, president obama invoked a 1953 law, the outer shelf continental lands act that could give his order much more staying power. still, the issue is likely to end up in federal court. stay tuned. we'll be right back. ♪ safe driver ♪ accident-free ♪ everybody put your flaps in the air for me ♪ ♪ go paperless, don't stress, girl ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." late today, the media arm of isis claimed responsibility for

yesterday's terrorist attack in berlin, which left 12 people dead. while no proof was provided, the city remains on high alert as german authorities continue to search for a suspect. meanwhile in turkey, russian and turkish officials have accused u.s.-based cleric of masterminding the assassination of the russian ambassador in turkey. last night donald trump on his first full day as president-elect swiftly condemned those incidents, plus a third in zurich as, quote, terrorist attacks. he also issued a longer statement, accusing isis of orchestrating berlin's attack, saying, quote, isis and other islamist terrorists continually slaughter christians in their communities and places of worship, as part of their global jihad. these terrorists and their regional and worldwide networks must be eradicated from the face of the earth, a mission we will carry out with all freedom-loving partners. sean spicer, trump's transition spokesman, echoed trump's rhetoric. >> with the new administration,

how will the response to terror strikes like this change? >> i think it's going to be swift and fierce. mr. trump has made it very, very clear he understands the threat that radical islamic terrorism poses to our nation, and frankly to our friends and neighbors around the globe. and we've got to be able to call it what it is and root it out by the bottom. we cannot be being politically correct. we've got to understand the threat that we face. and attack it straight on. >> for the latest on the investigation into yesterday's attack in berlin, i'm joined by matt bradley, foreign correspondent for msnbc. matt, good to talk to you. can you give us the latest on the investigation and the search for the attacker there in berlin? >> reporter: well, joy, it looks like the investigation is more or less back to square one. i'm not an expert on these sorts of police matters, but it seems to me that the police are going to have to start from the beginning. now, as you mentioned, there was a suspect that was initially detained in the moments following the attack last night, shortly after 8:00 p.m., right

behind me. right where this christmas market is normally held, normally, you would be able to hear christmas carols and there would be tons of tourists around, but tonight it's all very quiet. but that investigation seems to have stalled, but there's still plenty more material that could come out of this. and i remember, joy, we're actually -- it might help to think about it in terms of two crime scenes. there's the crime scene where the truck crashed into the crowd of people and killed 12 and injured dozens of others. and then there's the crime scene inside the cab of the truck itself. that's where the police were able to find a dead body. the polish national who was thought to have actually been the driver of the truck originally, he's the cousin of the man who owns the company that the truck was rented from originally. and driven from poland. now, this man was stabbed and shot. the revolver or the shotgun that shot him hasn't been found. and so, this smaller crime scene within the cab of that truck, this actually could yield quite

a little bit more information that could help investigators to determine exactly what went on and who is responsible. but so far, all we have is the evidence that's around this area, right here, and the isis claim of responsibility. as you mentioned before, it's not quite clear whether that claim of o responsibility holds any water. isis could be biggy backing on to a crime that just took place randomly or involved some other grievance, but right now the investigators are still moving forward and combing through as much as possible to try to figure out the perpetrator. >> thanks very much, matt bradley in berlin, appreciate it. let's now bring in congressman gregory meeks, democrat from new york, and malcolm nance, msnbc terrorism analyst and author of "defeating isis: who they are, how they fight, what they believe." thank you both. i'm going to defer first to the congressman here. one of the things that's striking about the way that donald trump reacted to this in sharp contrast to the way that president obama did and that presidents typically do is president obama, and i won't take credit for this original

thought, i think it was an ian brem piece in "time," he said, we will stand behind the german people. trump's statement was all about christians versus islam. and used the magic words they wanted to use, radical islamic terrorism, because they think that will somehow fight terrorism. how does it strike you as someone who sits on the relevant committees, that approach to responding to an attack, that we don't even know who did it? >> the approach is exactly the wrong approach. words do matter and the fact that he goes out there without, apparently, having his intelligence briefings or anything of that nature, but he just spurts words. you cannot go out and insult, as he has already, 40% of the world's population, if you think about the muslims, the chinese, and the mexicomexiconessemexico. that represents 40% of the world's population. and he has already insulted all of them. in a globalized world where

interconnectedness is more than it has ever been and the world is smaller than it has ever been. so i would hope that -- it doesn't seem like as we get closer and closer to january 20th, that he would understand the responsibilities of being the president of the united states of america and that words do matter. you just don't tweet out something of that manature. >> he isn't going to change, clearly, malcolm nance. they want to say, just saying radical islamic terrorism, that and in and of itself will help him fight terrorism. they have sean spicer saying the same playbook. this is john bolton, and he's talking about angela merkel, and essentially accusing the german chancellor, making her responsible, essentially, for what's taking place and what happened in berlin. let's listen to john bolton, who trump would like to have as his undersecretary of state. >> but i think the feeling that many germans have had and are reluctant to say out loud, given german's own history, is that

that feel that they've lost control of their country. it's not a feeling that's unknown elsewhere in europe, but merkel has been the biggest symbol, i think, across the continent, of somebody who was open to this policy. it's by her unilateral action in allowing this wave of refugees to come into europe. she definitely exposed germany and others to the risk of terrorism. >> so, malcolm, there is no evidence that this person who committed this attack was a refugee from syria. you've got this rhetoric about christians versus muslims, assuming all of those people at that christian market, assuming their backgrounds, and, you know, sort of couching il ining class of civilizations, and this anti-muslim rhetoric. how does that help us in a global world? >> it doesn't help us at all, as a matter of fact, this is going to evaluate the risk of massive, i mean massive, massive quantities of terrorism over the

next four years. we're essentially -- what i'm hearing, when i listen to their staples and certainly the statement from the president-elect is i'm hearing them set up a samuel huntington's clash of civilizations, which actually was the logic that osama bin laden used to carry out the 9/11 attacks. he believes that there should be a clash of civilizations between islam and the christian west. what i'm seeing, and certainly from the rhetoric, it appears that they believe that russia and the united states are this christian axis and that only christians are attacked by terrorists, which is quite surprising to all of our muslim allies since 9/11, who have been attacked and that we have been helping defend and bring about, you know, the protections for the people in the islamic world, who have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. this will only create a situation where isis will be saved. and isis is on the ropes there.

they are literally on the last legs of iraq and syria, but this kind of rhetoric could save isis and rise the ranks of al qaeda at a level we haven't seen since t the invasion of iraq. >> and speaking of things that might exacerbate the problems that we have in terms of terrorism and in terms of attention around the world, donald trump has also signaled that a dramatic shift is coming. last week, he named david friedman as his ambassador to israel. jeremy bename wrote a scathing opinion piece, opposing friedman's nomination. writing, even though friedman's views completely contradict bipartisan u.s. policy for the past five decades, that's not sufficient reason for the senate to reject his nomination, to accept his nomination. his lack of foreign policy or diplomatic experience. he's been trump's bankruptcy lawyer is also not alone a basis

for rejection. but never before has a diplomatic novice been placed in this sensitive post, where a single wrong word or move could pour fuel on fires already burning in the region. congressman, talk a rilittle bi about what we're facing with this combination, the notion of moving the u.s. embassy to jerusalem, an incredibly provocative act, essentially dismisses palestinian claims and setting up this clash of civilizations idea in terms how we deal with the muslim world? >> it makes me very nervous. number one, you're talking about a crisis that will blow up completely in the middle east. you're talking about migrants moving over, you're talking about where there is divisions completely in the area, but all across the world, as opposed to trying to figure out how we work together and bring people together, this is the most divisive plan that one could come up with that basically, you know, if you dig deep and look at what is being talked about, is some sort of superiority

complex, it looks like that they have, you were talking about with christians over muslims, muslims have been dealing with the jewish population. as a public trying to figure out, how we bring this thing together. in a globalized world we live in, we've got to figure out how to work with our allies. how we headache sure that there's a reason for why over five decades we had certain policies. and we've got to make sure that just someone who talks off the top of his head without knowing what he's talking about, we've got concerns. and i would hope that congress, democrats, and republicans will then step up and make sure that we hold this guy in check. >> all right, well, we shall see and we'll be watching. congressman gregory meeks and malcolm nance, thank you both. up next, north carolina governor mccrory calls a special session of his state legislature tomorrow again in order to repeal the so-called bathroom bill. what will happen tomorrow? we will ask our panel. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ music playing

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hi, there, i'm gigi stone woods. here's what's happening at this hour. at least 27 people are dead and 80 others hurt after a blast tore through a fireworks market on the outskirts of mexico city. security has been increased at landmarks and holiday markets across new york city following monday's truck attack in berlin. however, authorities say there is no imminent threat. and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu is offering to treat syrians wounded in the fighting in aleppo. he says israel has already

treated thousands of syrian civilians. now back to joy reid and "hardball." as i promised months ago, if the charlotte ordinance was repealed, i would call our general assembly into special session to reconsider existing state legislation passed earlier this year. and i'm doing just that for this wednesday. but it should also be noted that the whole issue of gender identity is a national issue that will be resolved by the courts and the united states justice department. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was the outgoing republican governor of north carolina, pat mccrory, announcing monday in a video message that he has called a special session of his legislature to convene in order to repeal the anti-transgender bathroom law that he signed last

march. north carolina republicans passed the law as a response to the city of charlotte, which passed its own ordinance to protect lbgtq people from discrimination. the state law overturned that ordinance and threw in a ban on cities raising their minimum wage. but since mccrory signed the legislation, which some says legalizes discrimination against gay people, north carolina saw a backlash from the private sector, with some major companies pulling their business from the state, including the nba, the acc, and the ncaa, which pulled tournaments out of the state altogether. and so yesterday as a result of a compromise between state and local leaders, the charlotte city council rescinded their ordinance in order for the state to begin the process of repealing the so-called bathroom law. and joining me now is a contributor to accou"the daily " and chris skroe, i hope i'm pronouncing that correct, and representative, i'll go with you on this first. why did charlotte give in in your view, when it seemed that

they were winning. i mean, you had major corporations pulling out of north carolina. you had all of these tournaments pulling out. the damage was real, lasting huge economic damage. why capitulate? >> we all know that charlotte and its ordinance has never been the problem. the ordinance that existed in the city of charlotte was a best practice glemployed in hundredsf other cities across the country. the problem has always been hb2, but every day that hb2 is on the books, there are no anti-discrimination laws. and beyond that, this law proactively discriminates. it doesn't just allow discrimination, it mandates discrimination. so every day hb2 is on the book, charlottians are at risk for discrimination. we must get the full repeal of

house bill 2 done tomorrow. >> and the the minimum wage part also being repealed? >> my understanding is what we will consider tomorrow is the full and unequivocal repeal of house bill 2. >> it does seem that the momentum was on the side of the -- of charlotte, right? and you just had governor mccrory bounce e ed out of offin part because of support of that law. >> it sort of reminds me of what the trump team has been doing the past couple of weeks whenever they're criticized, we won. democrats bon, they won. they beat mccrory. i don't know why they're backing down. and it's the equivalent, i want to be careful when i say this, but it's like negotiating with a terrorist. you don't get into that battle, because now the republicans, and they have the super majority in the legislature, are going to hold it against them. and i'm also old enough to remember that the whole purpose of hb2 was to protect children and to stop sexual predators from stop putting on high heels

and dresses and makeup and going into the bathroom and doing terrible things to children. now all of a sudden that threat doesn't exist? they're willing to give it up? who's going to protect the kids? >>yeah, that was the way it was sold. have your colleagued on the other side of the aisle expressed any further concern that now the bathrooms are going to be this sort of horror show without the law, or are they admitting they just passed it to stick it to charlotte? >> i don't think they've ever going to admit that, joy, but we do know that hb2 never protected women and children. if we wanted to protect women and children, we would have strengthened sexual predation laws. it was all about discrimination and that's why we have to get it off the books. i agree that charlotte shouldn't have to repeal its nondiscrimination ordinance, but for lbgt people to be protected in the state of north carolina,

we have to repeal hb2, which we should be doing tomorrow. we needed a pro-equality governor of the state of north carolina and we have that pb and then we need to win comprehensive nondiscrimination protections. and unfortunately we can't do that until house bill 2 is repealed. not just charlotte, but every in between can't have the comprehensive nondiscrimination protections that the state of north carolina needs at the municipal or state level until hb2 is off the books and that has to happen. it's an emergency that house pill 2 be repealed for my community here in the state. we have to get that done tomorrow. >> we will be watching, thank you very much. appreciate it. up next, first lady michelle obama reveals whether she'll ever run for public office. i'm not give ting that away, am? that and much more "hardball" roundtable when we return. and you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. for adults with advanced non-small cell lung cancer

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the challenges, uh, yeah, there are times that, you know, frustrated me, you know, this past election was challenging for me as a citizen to watch and experience. it was painful. if we want maturity, we have to be mature. if we want a nation that feels hopeful, then we have to speak in hopeful terms. we have to show love and everyone think. if we want smart leaders, then we have to be smart voters, you know? we cannot vote from a place of fear. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was first lady michelle obama in a rare and candid interview with oprah winfrey, talking about the pain that she felt over november's election. the first ladies a answered the one question on the minds of so many democrats since her lauded speech at the democratic national convention in philadelphia last summer, in a series of inspirational campaign speeches afterward. >> would you ever run for office?

i have to ask it. >> no. >> no kind of office? >> no. look, that's one thing i don't do -- i don't make stuff up. i'm not coy. i haven't proven that. i'm pretty direct. if i were interested, i would say it. >> for more reaction from michelle obama's interview, let's bring in the "hardball" roundtable. basil smikle is a democratic strategist and katherine rampel is a opinion writer with "the washington post." i get very wistful. what planet are the obamas from that they can all be so preternaturally calm and classy? what did you think of her response? >> i thought it was really disappointing that she said she wasn't going to run for office, after everyone on the political scene this year, her campaign speeches were incredible and had some of the most memorable takeaway lines in a way you may not remember a line from donald trump speeches or from hillary clinton but you do from president obama. >> wrong! snow, but, yeah, anyone that's

covered michelle obama knows she's not a huge fan of politics. the fact she gave those amazing speeches was surprising because she doesn't enjoy campaigning. >> she's very talented at it, certainly. she's very engaging, very thoughtful, very charismatic, but she doesn't seem to take pleasure in it. it's something that she does because she believes in the cause. and not necessarily because she wants to be in office. and i take her at her word when she says she has no interest. >> i would be shocked if she ever ran for office. but basil, she is good at getting in that low-key shade. we have to be mature, we have to be smart. who do you think that was a message to? >> to donald trump, absolutely. michelle obama unfiltered is the business. that is -- i love this. and i don't think she's going to run for us a. i don't even know if i wish she would. but what i do want her to do is be that constant voice out there for democrats going forward. one of the things i was most concerned about in this election

is whether or not african-americans broadly, but certainly african-american woman, would actually come out and be supportive and be energized and engaged. and she was a big part of that. and i'm glad to see that she's doing it. but, this was certainly a message to donald trump. and if she is the only one out there needling him in the near future, i think we're all better off for it. >> besides "when they go low, we go high," one of the really memorable lines, one of the other memorable things that mrs. obama said when she spoke about the visceral reaction about the "access hollywood" recording, about those words. what do we do when that does not stop you from being president? >> i think what she did is still so necessary. she spoke with passion and conviction about buy it was wrong. and you could tell that she was coming from a place of moral certitude. and it really showed in the remarks. and that's why it resonated on both sides of the aisle,

democrats and republican women, because she was so forceful at knowing what her truth was when she was speaking. >> yet it didn't affect the election at all. you had, you know, donald trump actually won the majority of white women. women of color voted overwhe overwhelmingly for hillary clinton. but in the end, for all of the bipartisan support for the first lady's everyone think and her sort of dignity, it doesn't seem that that anymore translates into politics. >> well, yes and no. i think there are a lot of women who said all men are bores and boys will be boys and i wish that were not the attitude, but i think a lot of women dismiss those comments for that reason. you know, the locker room talk explanation basically resonated. on the other hand, if you look at exit polls for example or even views today, surveys today, views of donald trump, they're still quite negative, right? and if you look at how people characterize him, it's not flattering. if you look at surveys of, does he respect women? the answers are not particularly

good. so i think in some sense, it was written off as, you know, we wish he were behaving better, but whatever, he's a dude, so therefore it's excusable. >> i think gary hart is calling from the monkey business wondering where did it all go wrong. all he did was laugh and he was finished! the roundtable is staying with us and when we come back, the e thing that bill clinton and donald trump actually agree upon this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ as soon as i became a parent i changed as a person, drastically. ♪

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former speaker of the house, newt gingrich, has an answer to those questions the trump family's potential involvement in their business and the government. here's what he said. >> i think in the case of the president, he has a broad ability to organize the white house the way he wants to. he also has, frankly, the power of the pardon. it is a totally open power and he could simply say, look, i want them to be my advisers. i pardon them if anyone finds them to have behaved against the rules, period. and technically, on the constitution, he has that level of authority. >> remarkable. we'll be right back. by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business... which adds fuel to my bottom line.

what's in your wallet? the possibility of a flare was almost always on my mind. thinking about what to avoid, where to go... and how to deal with my uc. to me, that was normal. until i talked to my doctor. she told me that humira helps people like me get uc under control and keep it under control when certain medications haven't worked well enough. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. raise your expectations. ask your gastroenterologist about humira.

with humira, control is possible. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me. welcome back to "hardball." we are backing with elise, basil and catherine. catherine, i'm going to start with you on your reaction to newt gingrich saying you can just parred and the people that you want in your administration and put them in. >> we have to remember donald trump gets the best people and it just happens to be that the

best people require being pardoned from the crimes they've committed in order to do their jobs. >> it will be fine. elise, we're speculating what he could have meant by that. what do you think he would have meant? >> i think he's talking about absolute power. let's disavow rule of law when it comes to his presidency. i find those comments really upsetting. the office of the president, the dignity of the presidency and the dignity they're saying it doesn't matter. i think it's disturbing. >> it does feel, basel, that they're putting together a rogue's gallery. you look at michael flynn and the conspiracy theories, some far right party founded by the nazis. bannon is still the same white nationalist he was yesterday and the day before. he's is yosurrounding himself w rogues. is gingrich saying we'll add more rogues. democrathave not responded to this. where is the democratic party?

>> i think you will hear more. we were talking is earlier, you know, we have a new chair being elected in february. i agree. it is too late. we should be talking about how steve bannon enshrines all of the things that we hated about donald trump's campaign. >> and who is the leader of the democratic party. >> right now it's dan donna brazile. when have you chuck schumer, nancy pelosi, you know, i think they're going to be fighting back. the fact that i'm here saying that and you know, you're looking at me like maybe not is an issue. but we should be fighting back. no question about it. and going back to this issue of the pardon, this is why people hate politics. this is why people distrust politicians. look at chris christie and abuse of governmental power there and what's happened with his lieutenant subsequent to that. this is something we should be standing on. >> the big irony of course, is that former president bill clinton hob agrees on donald trump about one thing, we teased before, he's the one that called

donald trump after the election. his 35rden of marc rich is the first thing thank got jim comey on his case. jim comey blows up is the election right before it's over. essentially, we are in a world without norms, right? will any of them be restored over the next four years? >> only if it's convenient for donald trump to restore those norms. like when we talk about conflicts of interests, we have laws, regulations and norms that protect us from these kinds of conflict fds interest particularly talking about the highest office in the world. donald trump has basically said, none of these things ally to me. newt gingrich, you haven't plays the sound bite. one of the other things he said in that interview on the. >> shon: reams show was essentially that congress should be helping trump figure out how to skirt all of the conflict of interesting issues. and that they should be fineding ways to help him figure out you know, well, he has this is enormous incredible empire around the world.

there's nothing he can do to address divestment. therefore, he should it be excused from it. that's not what the congress is there to do. congress's job is to serve as checks and balances. there are norms in terms of oversight that apparently we're dismissing. > we'll have you guys come back. apparently their job be also eight benghazi investigations. up next, the fine folks will tell me something i don't know. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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and we are back. elise, tell me something snin check out a "vanity fair" story that talks about the missing is footage from at prentice" that contains the most insent drit things donald trump said that a bunch of editors in l.a. put together as a gag because they thought hillary clinton was going to win and they refuse to release it because they didn't want to lose their jobs. that is still lurking in the atmosphere. >> and wikileaks has no interest in getting it. >> or they might already have it. >> it would hurt trump. basal? >> lest we forgetting about some of the important issues discussed by hillary and bernie sanders on the campaign, student debt. an article in the chronicle of higher education today talks about the fact that folks over 50 who are in student debt and may have defaulted on their student loans if the government is taking money out of is your social security check, there are a lot of seniors in poverty

because of that. >> catherine, quickly. >> trump and his new omb pick may not see eye to eye on deficits. one of them wants to close them and one wants to balloon them. there is one thing they agree, they're both cool on defaulting. > thank you very much. that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes" starts right now. stlug tonight on all in. >> there are leaders in congress hose did not support his presidency, which was not something that was good for the country. >> after eight years of obstructing president obama, it's now 31 days until president trump. >> it's over. you lost. quit chinaing. >> tonight starks the debate whether democrats should follow it the republican playbook back to the white house. plus, new questions about whether the trump kids are already selling access to their father. >> it's called pay for play. >> senator chris murphy on new concns about trump ties to hard right