that does it for us on this hour of "msnbc live," as we learned about the death of carrie fisher. >> sad day. good day to you. in new york where we're following heartbreaking news from los angeles at this hour. actress carrie fisher, best known to the world as "star wars" princess leia has died at the age of 60. awaiting history in honolulu. another face-to-face this hour between president obama and shinzo abe. the first japanese prime minister to set foot at pearl harbor in decades. first, to the death of carrie fisher, heartbreaking news. breaking just within the past hour. i want to get right to nbc's steve patterson who is following the latest from our los angeles news room. what are we learning?

>> well, carrie fisher passed away. the announcement this morning at about 9:00. we got the announcement from this, from her daughter, billie -- lourd. her publicist said that about 40 minutes ago. mark hamill, bob iker, president of disney, chiming in in sadness of carrie fisher. we heard over the weekend she had been stabilized. there was some word she may be through the woods on this. that make this is gut punch even worse, especially after what a year this has been. towards the end of this year, particularly just this past, you know, few days, alan thicke, george michael, carrie fisher, all heart-related deaths. now ending with her. she was kind of our last hope. we thought she would pull through. now this. tributes, again, are pouring in from all over the world. let's look at -- let's take a look at her legacy.

>> i'm a member of the imperial senate on a diplomatic mission. >> reporter: in this galaxy and perhaps others far, far away, carrie fisher is hollywood royalty. >> all i want is peace but we have no weapons. >> reporter: best remembered as iconic princess leia in "star wars." landing the role at just 19, fisher captivated audiences for decades, returning 40 years later in "the force awakens." even before battling the empire, fisher was born into the spotlight. daughter to famous parents eddie fisher and debbie reynolds. she made her own debut in the 1975 movie "shampoo." >> you think that's fun y don't you? >> reporter: building up more than 90 film and tv credits. >> let's go. >> reporter: fisher went on to write seven book, including the se semi-auto buy graphic cal

"postcards from the edge" and her most recent "princess dirist," where she talked about her affair with harrison ford. she talked about it with savannah on "today." >> it seemed like you were in love. felt that way. >> i was 19. yeah, so i was not a cavalier type person. >> one of the trademarks of carrie fisher from the beginning of her career has been this brutally honest demeanor. >> reporter: never afraid to comment on mental illness, drug use, a strained relationship with her mother or failed marriage to paul simon. >> she had become a successful author, screenwriter. she's a commentator. she's done many, many different things beyond "star wars" as an actress. >> reporter: this morning the phrase, may the force be with you, trending on social media as a princess is remembered as a queen. >> may the force be with you. >> carrie fisher was on board a

flight from london to l.a.x. she promoting her latest book. a prolific author, in a gruelling tour across seas to promote that book. coming back. the last 15 minutes before the plane lands, she starts breathing heavily, having problems breathing. passengers rush to her side. she's taken off the plane, rushed to the hospital where she stays over the weekend. she is announced to be in critical condition. stays in the icu. then sunday her mother announces that she has been stabilized and then now just a few days later, just one day -- or two days after george michael dies, it is announced she passes away. tributes pouring in from all over the world, including her famous fans and co-stars, as everybody is just remembering the life and legacy of hollywood royalty. jacob? >> steve, so sad, just given that tweet from debbie reynolds a couple days ago. nbc's steve patterson in los angeles. thank you very much. continuinour conversation here about the death of carrie

fisher, joining me from washington, pop culture reporter for "the washington post." i used to be in a previous life a red carpet reporter. i have been on the red carpets of many a film. there are no more dedicated fans than those of "star wars." i mean they love this woman as if she was a member of her family. how will carrie fisher be remembered? >> well, obviously, she rocketed to fame as princess leia in the "star wars" films and she repriced that role in last year's "the force awakens." a lot of tributes we see coming in are from the star wars fandom and telling her, may the force be with her. she will be remembered by those individuals as the princess that she was in those films. as the piece that was played earlier highlighted, she also did a lot of other things during her career. she was very outspoken about her own struggles can addiction. she was an advocate for mental health issues and a best-selling

author. >> yeah. and just on that note, in terms of the books she has written, she was just on the "today" show, i believe last month, talking to savannah about "the princess diaryist" which was her making of the as far wars films. what do we know about how she's been of late? so much has been kron keld of of her struggles. she was out there and doing quite well, as far as we could see. >> yeah, she was very active in november. she was doing a lot of press for that book. which she confirmed those rumors that had been out there for a while that she had an on-set affair, brief affair, with co-star harrison ford. she was doing press for that. she just recently wrapped up flimg for the sequel for "force awakens," which is released next year. she's also been filming and working on her projects. she was very active. she had a very active social media presence as well in the

days leading up to that cardiac episode. >> i want to take a look from "oem pir strikes back." this will probably be a familiar clip to just about everybody out there watching. take a look at this. >> hey, i'm only trying to help. >> would you please stop calling me that. >> sure, leia. >> you make it so difficult sometimes. >> i do. i really do. you could be a little nicer, though. come on, admit it, sometimes i'm all right. >> occasionally, maybe. when you aren't acting like a scoundrel. >> scoundrel? i like the sound of that. >> stop that. >> stop what? >> stop that. my hands are dirty. >> my hands are dirty, too. what are you afraid of? >> afraid? >> you're trembling. >> i'm not trembling.

>> it might be because i'm a scoundrle. >> i happen to like nic men. >> nice men. >> very nice -- ♪ >> man, that is just truly incredible to watch. undeniable chemistry there. >> yeah, that's right. and no wonder there were those rumors for so long about what was going on between the two on set. she had been very candid recently about what had taken place some 30 years before. that will just always remain in cinematic history as a moment to behold. >> thank you so much for joining me with the very sad news of the death of actress carrie fisher at the age of 60. turning to politics, we're keeping an eye on hawaii where this hour a bilateral meeting will get under way between president obama and japanese prime minister shinzo abe. plus, coming up, a check on the incoming administration team trump announcing two new cabinet

picks today. who they are and the roles they've been tapped to fill on the other side of this short break. american express open cards can help you take on a new job, or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. find out how american express cards and services ♪ everything your family touches sticks with them. find out how american express cards and services make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. because no one kills germs better than clorox.

now to an historic day in honolulu. franklin delano roosevelt can called it the day in infamy. it set off a war, intournament camps and reshaping of asia. today to the visit of pearl har

more memorial caps off years of work by obama to repair the relationship and close a chapter in history. nbc's tammy leitner is in honolulu with the latest. >> reporter: this is going to be a day that goes down in the history books. this is the first time ever that a japanese prime minister has had an official visit to pearl harbor, accompanied by a sitting president. we know the two will start their day with a bilateral meeting and then there will be a wreath ceremony out at the u schlt schs arizona, both will give remarks to media and some survivors have been invited to be there for those remarks. keep in mind, this is a relationship with japan that president obama has really been working on for his entire presidency, for the last eight years. and it was really capped off back in may when he went to hiroshima for that visit. if you remember, the president made an an apology for things

that happened in the past, just like we're not expecting the prime minister to make apologies today. this visited is more about moving forward. >> tammy leitner in honolulu. thank you. joining me from wash wash, director of the school of media and public affairs at georgia wash university. fdr's famous speech but the u.s. -- talk about how it's evolved from the rallying cry of never forget pearl harbor to a very close ally. >> that's the point. it's gone from a vicious enemy where the united states retaliated in a very long war, very costly war, dropping to atomic bombs to the point in the 1980s where japan -- that japan inc was seem to be buying up america in the rest belt of the united states, woke everybody up, to a 20-year recession in

japan itself as they've had incredible economic struggles but yet remain an economic powerhouse. today they have vital allies and very much caught up in a very interesting and at times awkward transition from obama administration to trump administration where these two allies joined at the hip are now wondering whether under the trump administration, japan is going to be asked to defend itself more, pay more, what the future of the transpacific partnership is going to be. so, this event we're seeing here in pearl harbor is enormously symbolic. both in terms of the war and what these countries were through but also the relationship and how the relationship between japan and the united states defines this new world we're living in. >> we're likely see both of these leaders in the next hour on oahu. we did not see president obama apologize for the bombing of hiroshima when he was in heir sham ma back in may.

we don't expect to hear an apology from prime minister abe. why is that 1234? >> there are a lot of reasons, diplomatic and historical that there aren't formal apologies. also enormous political pressures that both have to deal with back home. for the united states to apologize for dropping the atomic bombs that ended the war would rattle historians and veterans and many people across the political spectrum. abe back in japan has enormous sensitivities he has to play to. he has to worry about china and korea that have demanded an historic apology for a very long time. should the japanese apologize for their role in history, for their role in starting the war, would that make any difference now? there's a great debate over that. but you didn't hear an apology from obama and you won't hear one from abe today. >> we know we saw abe at trump tower here the first world leader to meet with president-elect trump after his victory. we saw some of his family

members, controversially attending that meeting along with lieutenant general michael flynn. they have this warm relationship on the one hand, him being the first foreign dignitary to visit president-elect trump, but also trump has had tough talk about japan, maybe even closing down some of the u.s. military presence in the country. how do we square the circle? is this just bluster from president-elect trump? are we going to see a det deterioration of this relationship from the president-elect? >> who knows. i don't imagine we'll see much of a deterioration because there's too much at stake and donald trump is a businessman. but he has promised to rip up the transpacific partnership, the tpp, which has been negotiated among japan and china for seven years. and it's all about commerce. so, that's really what japan is gigantically worried about. as i mentioned, they had decades' long stagnation, they had a sort of stagnant to declining population. their population is growing

older. they have to worry about competition from koreans and chinese and even from the vietnamese and others in asia where the dynamic is so changed. so, how do they stay competitive? so, japan's relationship with the united states is key. so, is united states' relationship with japan because united states, forget the political rhetoric, whateve you think of the tpp or anything se, the united states of america does a lot of business exporting and engaging and buying from japan and from all of asia. so, what you pay at k-mart or brookstone or wherever you shop, and whatever they buy, wherever they're buying it, including agriculture, there's a lot, a lot on the line here. so, that's part of this very delicate dance. and where this goes when donald trump is president is very much in flux. >> it will be fascinating to see them today and the relationship develop in the days and months and years ahead.

president-elect trump vacationing at hi mar-a-lago resort. here to help break it down, washington bureau chief for washington "sun-times." lynn, let's start with "the wall street journal" today. the paper's own analysis says the net worth of president-elect trump's cabinet picks together is almost $10 billion. billion with a "b." does that have an affect on his image that he likes to project a man of the people, a blue-collar billionaire? >> jacob, good to see you. but this has no impact on him. nothing has had an impact. just because he gave the impression he wasn't going to hire or have anything to do with anyone from goldman sachs, although he makes cabinet picks who are related to the company, i think we're still in the area where things don't matter in terms of the impact on trump's popularity. but what is interesting in his

cabinet picks so far is people have noticed they're overwhelmingly white male. he made a new pick dealing with international trade relations. that will be interesting to see if that in any way undermines the role and already well-established role of the united states' trade rep. >> trump's critics regarding his foundation, which he said he's going to close -- he said, quote, i gave millions of dollars to the foundation, raised or received millions more. all of which is given to charity and media won't report. the post reports since its inception trump has given the foundation over $5 million. since 20008 he's given nothing. other donors have given over 9 million bucks. the new york attorney general says he can't close the foundation until the investigation is done. we haven't seen his tax returns so we don't know what he's given

to the foundation. what's next? >> that's correct. the reason this question exists because donald trump didn't release his tax returns. "the washington post" dug into that. "the washington post" reporter david fahrenthold had a public way of reporting this, given the trump campaign at the time plenty of opportunities to confirm or deny that information. they never really did. so, this still exists. why it's important is because donald trump has still not addressed the issue of what he will do with potential conflicts of interests with his businesses once he takes office. he's supposed to have a press conference in january to address that issue. given the entanglements and so forth, the foundation questions also pertain to some business entanglements as well. >> that press conference was originally supposed to happen this month, but it was postponed into next month. i want to talk about what's going on up the street at the united nations. we know representatives israel's government says it's going to give the trump administration

evidence that the obama administration orchestrated that u.n. security council vote. israel has not offered any proof, publicly. we have asked them, others have asked them, what does the trump response need to be in this case? >> well, if you're talking about the trump response before he's the president, he -- we are seeing what he's responding on triter. what will be interesting when he is president is what he instructs his incoming united states ambassador, south carolina nikki haley, on what he wants her to do, and if the -- it seems to me there will be a u.s. security council veto of any u.n. measure against israel. but i want -- i think the context here is important. the united nations has never been an honest broker in any israeli dealing, with maybe a rare exception. so, one of the reasons this is now so controversial, it's not the -- it's not really a discussion, per se, on the

settlements, the u.s. position being against settlements was well established with obama's speech in cairo at the beginning of his presidency. it's whether or not the united nations, israel and other nations and other people throughout the world, see the u.n. as an honest broker and the answer is no. >> nbc news has confirmed steven adviser steven miller is going to write trump's speech. we know he penned many of trump's speeches, one of which we saw on the floor of the republican national convention in july. >> the indications are that it would be similar to the speeches that we've heard donald trump deliver on those big, national types of stages. he was criticized by some for the tone of that convention speech. having it be pretty dark and somber. his supporters say it really reflected the sentiments they were feeling at the time and

continue to feel and kind of were behind them supporting his presidency. so, the important thing about this inaugural address is that it gives donald trump an opportunity to really unite the nation. as we've seen over the past month or so, it remains a very divided country. he can use this big stage, of course, to do that. but i wouldn't be surprised, of course, if he included a lot of those themes. he had been talking about on the campaign trail and bringing it up to date here. so, i think it will be a really important speech to watch not only for the themes but also in termen terms of the rhetoric and tone. it will give us an indication of how he intends to preside as president. >> it was quite a dark, depressing picture he painted at the republican national convention. if i remember correctly, he alone can solve it. thank you both so very much for joining me. appreciate it. picture this, decision 2016. obama versus trump. that would have been weird. what would have happened if the president would have been able to run for a third term?

he says he would win. as you can imagine, donald trump is tweeting right back at him.

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msnbc world headquarters with breaking news at this hour. carrie fisher at the age of 60, the actress best known for portraying princess leia has passed away in los angeles, this coming after news the actress suffered massive heart attack on board a flight from london to los angeles. we're following this story very closely and we'll have more for you as it develops. more news for you at this hour. senior republican senators john mccain and lindsey graham in estonia reassuring baltic

states concerned that president-elect trump may not be fully committed to their defense. this after trump campaigned vowing to consider a nato country's contributions before coming to its aid. the senators head to latvia tomorrow. russian investigators are poring through the black box data recorder from the plane that crashed into the black sea, covered off the coast of sochi. a dozen remains of the 92 victims on board have been recovered so far. and check out the massive waterfalls flowing atop australia's uluru national park. a massive storm triggering dangerous flash floods forcing officials to close the park to tourists. turning back to politics. republicans are weeks away from having control of both houses of congress and the presidency. meantime, democrats still trying to understand why turnout was so terribly low for them in november. joining me now, house deputy minority whip peter welsh of

vermont. good to see you. i want to start off the bat by asking you, what is the state of the democratic party as we head into this new year? the president taking heat from donald trump after saying he would have won if he could have ran for a third term. what does this say about the democratic party moving forward? >> well, the bad news is we're a bicoastal party and we got hammered in the rust belt and with working class americans. white working class folks. also, we didn't get the vote from the hispanic working class and black working class americans. that is a real challenge to the democratic party. president obama was able to hold that coalition together. obviously, secretary clinton didn't perform nearly as well as president obama did. so, frankly, we've got some soul searching. on the other hand, the good news is the democrats did get about 3 million more votes. that's number one. number two, when you go and look at the tru policies, i think we're heading from a person who disruptive effectively in the campaign but may have a hard

time governing. if he's going to start unraveling health care, giving free rein to the bank and follow through on tax cuts at the high end, it will be punishing for working class americans. and that's where i think you'll see the judgment of the american people start to focus on the competence and values of donald trump. >> i think you're the perfect person to talk about this with because you have had the unique position of being nominated by both parties on the same ballot eight years ago, even this year saying you represent, quote, the sanders' wing of the republican party. your fellow democrats seem divided. chuck schumer says he's willing to work with the trump administration. maxine waters from my home of los angeles said she would not accept a trump invite to the white house. i want you to listen to that real quick. >> i have no intention of pretending everything's all right, that we're going to work together. for me, as ranking member of the

financial services committee, where he said he's going to bring down dodd/frank and he's going to get rid of the consumer financial protection bureau, i'm going to fight him every inch of the way. >> so, are you a chuck schumer democrat or a maxine waters democrat on thatpectrum? >> well, here's where i am. if donald trump in the campaign made some suggestions he's going to do a muslim registry, that he's going to deport 12 million hispanics, that's where you're starting to tread on constitutional rights. i'll be uncompromising on defending the rights of every american, every place against any infringement. on the question of policy, the fact is if you're in politics, there's an expectation we show up, we give an honest assessment of our position and an honest critique of the president's position. when it comes to policies, i'm really strongly opposed to the financial policies maxine waters mentioned that trump is taking, repealing health care is

terrible. we have to fight that on the merits. >> but you would go to the trump white house for a wheegt, unlike congressman waters? >> yep. if i got invited to a substantive meeting at the white house, i would go, of course. >> vermont congressman peter welsh, thank you very much. coming up next, back to the breaking news out of los angeles. carrie fisher dead today at the age of 60. reaction pouring in for the beloved star wars actress. ll about great taste. and we thoroughly test all our nuts for superior craveability. hey richard, check out this fresh roasted flavor. looks delicious, huh? -yeah. -richard, try to control yourself. -i can't help it. -and how about that aroma? -love that aroma! umph! -craveability, approved! -oh, can i have some now?! -sure! help yourself. -wait, what? -irresistibly planters.

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to follow breaking news out of los angeles, carrie fisher has passed away. the news breaking more than an hour ago. we're hearing from her mother, debbie reynolds who wrote, thank you to everyone who has embraced the gifts and talents of my beloved daughter. i'm grateful for your thoughts and prayers guiding her to her next stop. her "star wars" co-star mark hamill saying, no words, #devastated. william shatner said, i'm deeply devastated to learn of the death of carrie fisher. i will miss our banter. joining us, chris witherspoon. after she suffered this massive heart attack last friday, fans were tweeting, may the force be with her. so powerful from, as i was sang earlier, from the fan base, the most dedicated fan base in all of the film world.

how else are we hearing people react today? >> i think you're hard-pressed to find fans as loyal as "star wars" fans. i was hearing yesterday she was in stable condition. but i think fans are now remembering her legacy, talking about her big body of work as an actress. also behind the scenes as a script writer. she worked on a lot of different films behind the scenes. some were "hook," "sister act," "the river wild," "scream 3" and people don't realize she had a huge career as a script doctor. it's remarkable to see her legacy play out. >> i want to take a look at a clip from one of the star wars films. something everyone is familiar with. >> governor, i should have expected to find you holding vader's leash. i recognized your foul stench when i was brought on board. >> charming. you don't know how hard i found it signing the order to end your

life. >> i'm surprised you found the courage to sign it yourself. >> before your execution, i would like you to be my guest at a settlement that will make this operational. no star system will dare oppose the emperor now. >> the more you tighten your grip, the more they will slip through your finger. >> not after we demonstrate the power of this station. you have determined the choice of the planet that will be destroyed first. since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the rebel base, i have chosen to test this station's destructive pow other your home planet. >> no. it's peace. we have no weapons -- >> you have another military targetthen name the system? i grow tired of asking this, so it will be the last time. where is the rebel base? >> dantu, they're on dantu.

>> you see, lord vader, she can be reasonable. >> continue with the operation. you may fire when ready. >> what? >> you're far too testing. don't worry, we will deal with your rebel friends sooner. >> commence primary. ♪ >> just so legendary, actually, watching that and to think that she was only -- when she first signed up for the star wars gig, 19 years old. which makes you think about how young she actually was to pass away at the age of 60. >> it's crazy. she actually had this amazing career in hollywood. her mother and father are hollywood ledge ends in

themselves. she got a firsthand look growing up -- >> debbie reynolds and eddie fischer. >> she wrote the screen play from "postcards from the edge," which meryl streep started in that. it was sort of biography of her life. >> she made an effort to come after -- everyone knew her for star wars fame, to tell stories of her struggles in particular. >> you don't see that in hollywood. i think carrie fisher is one of the most outspoken actresses to be candid. if you see her red carpet interviews, one from last year, where she was promoting the new star wars films. you don't see actresses talk about drug addiction, weight gain. >> you don't see many people dropping "s" bombs or anything like that on the red kampt. appreciate you being here. per roll

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coming up in just a few minutes, president obama and japanese prime minister shinzo abe meet at pearl harbor. abe's first official visit since japan's 1941 attack. more than 2,000 americans were killed that december morning. the two will address the media shortly after the bilateral meeting. from there a visit to the "uss

arizona." now turning to the united nations. despite the u.n. security council's vote on friday condemning israeli settlements, israeli is not backing down and announced plans to build thousands new homes in east jerusalem. israel's government is warning countries against any further action saying israel does not turn the other cheek. those are the exact words. joining me, bob franken, syndicated columnist. hi, bob. in our last hour, senator george mitchell who served as special envoy for middle east peace he said he thought the obama administration should have handled the u.n. vote a little differently. let's take a listen to that. >> president obama would have been wise to veto this resolution, not because of the policy implication but because of the timing and the circumstance that it leads to with respect to trying to get the parties together. >> what do you think about

mitchell's comments? you agree? >> well, the flaw that i might find in it is that the united nations has not considered a credible mechanism in trying to get the parties together. as a matter of fact, the reality is no nation, no organization in the world has been a credible mechanism as evidenced by the fact that the two sides are so far apart. >> bob, israel strongly believes, when i say strongly, i mean strongly, that the united states was behind the u.n. security council vote, even though the u.s. flatly outright denying it had anything to do with it at all. here's what israeli prime minister netanyahu's spokesperson said this morning on "morning joe". >> it's unequivocal that the united states, that the obama administration, more appropriately, was behind this united nations resolution, pushed for it, lob idea for it. it's a really tragedy because we should be working together to advance peace. >> my question, bob, it's a

simple one, if they've got the proof, why not just show the proof? how is this going to impact the relations between the united states and israel? >> well, i don't think it's going to have much impact because we're about to have a change in administrations. donald trump is promising, in effect, to severe will he change the relationship barack obama had with israel, certainly with benjamin netanyahu. of course, we've seen evidence of that in his nomination to be the ambassador to israel, david friedman, who is considered to be quite the hard-liner. so, things are about to change so this really becomes what just symbolic. >> president-elect trump is just slamming the united nations after friday's security council vote. i don't know if you saw his tweet, but it said, the united nations has such great potential but right now it is just a club for people to get together, talk and have a good time. so sad.

i mean, wow. how do you think that will affect the relationship between the u.n. and u.s. we fund a quarter of the peacekeeping and budget operating costs. doesn't this put newly appointed nikki haley in an incdibly awkward position? >> i suspect so. this is somebody who's going to be learning on the job, so she may as well learn under duress. first of all, when you're talking about a diplomatic organization that is the currency of a diplomatic organization. they talk. so, part of that criticism is probably not all that well-founded. however, the part that is well-founded is that the united nations is a grossly bureaucratic, cumbersome organization that oftentimes does not get stuff done. >> we hear often, bob, about the defunding of the united nations, threats to do that. do you think there will be any follow-through on that? >> i expect there will be that kind of threat. it's happened before. the united states did withhold funds for a long time.

that, of course, has a very potent result on what the u.n. does and does not do. however, at the same time, the united nations is an organization that is certainly anti-israel, as a whole, number one. number two, has many, many members who are not particularly fond of the united states. >> bob franken, thank you very much for joining me here this afternoon. the trump administration continues to take shape. the new names added to the president-elect's staff. i'll bring them to you after the break. ss be ready when growth presents itself? american express open cards can help you take on a new job, or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com.

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the president-elect is wrapping up his holiday in palm beach and expected to resume his full schedule tomorrow. it's been a working holiday for donald trump announcing two more staff picks. tom bossard named assistant to homeland security and counterterrorism. and jason greenblat named representative for intertional negotiations. joining me is julian epstein and susan del persio. in an exit interview with david axelrod, president obama reflected on 2008's bitter campaign fight, saying he could have rallied 50%, or half of americans with his vision. susan, we'll sta with you. from the winning side, what do you think democrats have to do

to win back those voters? you may not want to help them, but where did they go wrong? >> president obama also thought hillary clinton was going to win this go-around and basically said so several times before election night. what democrats need to do is broaden their appeal to middle -- to working class voters. and they have to stop talking to the east and the west coast elites, to be frank. and start focusing on the middle of america, because that's what trump was really able to tap into. >> there's no doubt, there's some of that, and i certainly saw it traveling the country this year, talking to as many voters as humanly possible in the rust belt and beyond, but is susan right, is that it or is it a little russian interference, other factors as well? >> i think it's multiple factors. i think it's important to not overinterpret election results. i think first in terms of the question of whether obama would beat trump, that's a moment where a lot of people say, duh,

of course he would. he is one of the most popular outgoing presidents. he has a 55% approval ratings. donald trump is one of the most unpopular incoming presidents at 43%. he's never even in his celebrity years been over 50% in terms of his approval rating. i think it's clear obama would probably trounce trump if that was the match-up. i think susan's largely right. what democrats don't want to overinterpret this election but i think it was two things. i don't think the democrats had a message that appealed to middle class working white voters or that inspired black voters because black turnout was low. so, i think that was certainly part of the problem. the other problem was the prnlt. obama has a very, very compelling strong permit, which in part explains why his approval ratings are so high. hillary clinton was dogged by problems of questions about her authenticity and honesty.

i think that combined with the lack of a really compelling message, compelling economic message, a message that was constantly eclipsed by identity politics, too much conversation, for example, about bathrooms and not enough conversations about jobs. i think those two factors combined are what gave donald trump the slimmest of majorities in some of these battleground states where he won the electoral college. >> also let's not forget, we had the two most unpopular candidates ever to run for president. this election was an anomaly when it comes to that, for sure. >> they were both unpopular. i said the other day i met some young people when i was in nevada doing some reporting that were more eager to vote for the marijuana initiative than either republican or democratic candidate. another area we've seen them feuding in a war of words over what's going on with israel. the two are pretty far apart on where they stand with international diplomacy.

what does this mean, the conflicting positions and how drastic the shift is going to be for u.s. positions in international relations going forward? >> like everything else with sdth trump, it's hard to predict what he'll tweet or do next. it's surprising he took this tone. there's a lot of talk of, we should only have one president at a time. something i happen to agree with. we now live in the world of -- you know, donald trump is our next president. we will not be able to predict what he's going to do. zoo julien? >> i think suzanne is exactly right. i think donald trump transgressed the long-standing principle that's gone out for centuries about having one president at a time. an incoming president does not try to interfere with the foreign policy of the existing president, even if it's an outgoing president. i think there's that kind of disturbing notion where you have two heads the state right now. secondly, eat rattic nature of

donald trump, the tweeting about israel, the tweeting about new nuclear arms race, the interference with syria. i think you can go on down the line. telling the chinese to keep the drone they found off the shore. so, i think there's an erratic nature that disturbs a lot of people, including thoughtful people on the republican side. >> i think it's important -- it's important not to confuse erratic versus unpredictable. unpredictable has been donald trump's strategy. that's not something that's wishy-washy off the map. that's a strategy he's been using since he he ran for president. >> i have to leave it there. unfortunately, julien. thank you so much. thanks very much. by the way, i'm new to the anchor chair. surprised there's been so many agreement in this political debate segment. we'll have to look into it. that wraps up things for this hour of "msnbc live." thank you for being with me. find me on snapchat, twitter,

instagram, jacob sobroff. craig melvin picks things up in new york. >> welcome to the city. thanks. i'm craig melvin in for kate snow. breaking news, carrie fisher, dead at 60 years old. just four days after suffering a heart attack aboard a transatlantic flight. the world knew her as tough as nails, princess leia almost as strong as fisher herself. >> i should have expected to find you holding vader's leash. i recognized your foul stench when i was brought on board. >> charming. you don't know how hard i found it signing the order to terminate your life. >> i'm surprised you found the courage to sign the responsibility yourself. >> principle cease lbefore your would like you to