due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons. into a world of chaos and danger. now the scenes you've never seen. "lockup: raw."

three unforgettable inmates. each one about to cross the threshold to freedom. >> look back, you come back. this time i'm not looking back. >> we witness their joys. >> i look like a pimp. look at this little phone. >> do you think i'm stupid? >> their fears. >> you were still wearing diapers when i was doing this. >> their triumphs. >> i've done everything i could possibly do over the last 26 years to be ready. >> and discovers sometimes the only thing tougher than being in prison is staying out. >> everybody's betting i don't make it. ♪ oh >> for inmates who have spent most of theirs lives locked inside maximum security prisons, the prospect of getting out can often bring more fear than relief. >> unfortunately, more than 50% of the inmates who are released from prison come back in. it's a chronic problem that's resulted in one big revolving door. >> we saw an example of this firsthand when we met joe sanchez at the penitentiary of new mexico. >> i've been doing this since 1981. in and out, in and out, in and out. >> sanchez was nearing his release date after serving five years for burglary but wasn't

very optimistic about his chances on the outside. >> nobody ever makes parole. they all come back. come back and discharge and go right back out there again, and we learn nothing because there's no rehabilitation in here, you know? go right back out there and do the same damn thing over and over and over. ♪ oh oh oh >> joe sanchez was the perfect example of an institutionalized inmate. we see that a lot when we're filming in prisons. these guys have become so acclimated to prison life, they're more comfortable there than in the free world, and the first time i met joe, he had been in trouble for some kind of infraction. he was constantly getting in trouble, but he also told me that he was due to be released soon, and without skipping a beat then said he was terrified of getting out. >> and i keep snapping at these cos and picking up reports. you know, it's like almost like i'm doing it on purpose so i

don't have to go. >> sanchez had just gotten a disciplinary write-up for insulting a female staff member. >> i snapped at her and yelled at her. and she got her little feelings hurt. if her feelings are going to go get hurt, go work it off at a damn church. you got no right working in a place like this where people are going to speak their minds. >> sanchez's petulance continued during his disciplinary hearing. >> i don't care. >> and in the meantime, i don't want to hear anything out of you. i want you to maintain -- >> no. no promises. >> anything that you do -- >> no. >> -- that is in violation of policy -- >> i don't care. >> you'll be held accountable. you understand? >> i don't care. i don't care about accountability. >> you need to start caring. that's the problem. >> i don't care. >> take him back. i'll get you with on monday. >> the hell with monday. let's do it now. >> sanchez was transferred to another unit for the remaining three weeks of his sentence.

>> all right, joe. >> all right, fellows. stay out of trouble. [ bleep ]. >> on one of our follow-ups with joe, we were talking about being set free, and he told me the last time he was out, he had gone to walmart, and he had become so overwhelmed by everything he saw around him. >> i went in there with my mother and my sister, and i was like really nervous, and i go, i got to go back outside. i wasn't used to the people, the colors, the reds, the purples, the pinks and the greens and all the colors and hearing the kids cry in aisle four, you know, and all the noise. and i started looking at everything and the cars going by and the traffic and the airplanes and life goes on without me, and it goes on.

it doesn't stop for joe, you know. it goes, you know? >> i think everything that he did to survive in prison wasn't going to work in the outside world, and he knew that. his interpersonal communication skills were lacking. i understood why he was afraid to get out. >> getting a job and holding on to it, you know. and i keep thinking, you know, this is all i know. this is all i know. these guys come in here and feed us three times a day. we go out in this little cage all day. you're going to do what they say. like i say, it's two different worlds, you know. this world over here, you got to be tough. you can't show any type of weakness in here, you know. you front all the way through here hiding behind this guy or hiding behind this name. i'm too old. i'm 45 now. i just want to retire now. i don't want to come back here no more. i'm through with it. i'm through with this place. i want to find something to do over there when i get out. i don't know, maybe a pastry chef or do something positive because i'm going to be too old to be digging ditches, and i don't want to do that, you know. i want to get my first paycheck. i want to get my first income tax check. i want to get a driver's

license. i want to get a car that's legit under my name. you know? >> have you ever had any of these experiences? >> no. >> but later in our stay at new mexico, sanchez found out that due to a miscalculation of his sentence, his release would be delayed by 15 days. >> when we checked in with joe a couple weeks later, he was preparing to go to a meeting with prison staff. he was going to be told that they had miscalculated his good time. he was going to have to stay in prison longer. >> are you going to come out or not? are you going to come out or not? >> he knew all this going into the meeting, but he still had a very bad reaction. >> stay with your back to the door. >> oh, cut it out. >> you cut it out. >> it's protocol for an inmate when he's leaving his unit to be strip searched, and they also have to squat and cough so staff knows that he's not hiding any weapons in a body cavity. joe had been doing that forever. he had done it a million times, and suddenly as he was nearing his release date, he started to

refuse to do it. >> no, i ain't got nothing on me. give me my boxers. >> he became very verbally assaultive with staff. >> i just did it. i ain't got nothing on me. what i got, a grenade? i ain't got nothing on me. >> then you got no problem doing it right. >> no, i'm not doing it. i just did it. i don't have anything on me. >> do it right. >> [ bleep ] i'm completely naked, i ain't got nothing. >> do it. >> no. >> do what we ask you do. >> no. >> because he was so close to the door, i couldn't tell if he had just reached the end, i don't want to squat and cough anymore, i've done it enough. or if in a weird way, he was trying to hinder his chances of getting out. >> i say i don't got to [ bleep ] go to this committee. >> yes, you do. >> no, i don't. you think i'm stupid? i've been doing this a lot longer than you, a lot longer than you. you were probably still wearing diapers when i was doing this.

thinking i'm stupid. all you guys were wearing diapers when i was doing this. >> just follow the directions, so we can go. >> i don't have anything. >> then turn, squat, and cough. >> i don't have anything, and you know it. >> sanchez eventually complied with the rest of the strip search but was still angry about attending the meeting. >> i don't want to go in there. i already know. they just want to act like they got the upper hand. i'll spit on their [ bleep ]. i'll spit on that [ bleep ]. i'll tell you that right now i will. i don't need to hear something that already happened. take 15 days. i don't give a [ bleep ]. 15 days doesn't hurt me anyway. >> so joe is already upset. he's waiting for this meeting to start. he's having a really difficult time. he thinks he's getting 15 days added to his sentence, and then suddenly the unit manager comes in and drops this bomb on him. >> mr. sanchez, how are you

doing today?

i tried hard to quit smoking. but when we brought our daughter home, that was it. now i have nicoderm cq. the nicoderm cq patch with unique extended release technology helps prevent your urge to smoke all day. it's the best thing that ever happened to me. every great why needs a great how.

we were at the penitentiary of new mexico with inmate joe sanchez in the weeks just prior to his release date. he had already been informed it would be delayed by 15 days due to a miscalculation of his earned good time. but the news was about to get much worse. >> mr. sanchez, how are you doing today? got a little bit of a problem. in looking at your file, i have found an error -- i found -- >> you guys find errors. you never find nothing good. you're good at finding errors. just get to the point. >> okay. at this point in time i'm looking at like 88 days, not 15. >> 88 days? >> and that's what i wanted to talk to you about, but i think it's more appropriate -- >> you guys are [ bleep ] doing that wrong. i don't know where the hell you get 88 days or who the [ bleep ] made that up but -- >> that's what we want to talk

about, and i think it's more appropriate to talk about that in a committee. >> you guys already did it so what the [ bleep ]. you already did it. you already done it. >> no, i haven't done it. >> i know for a fact in my heart you guys made a mother [ bleep ] mistake and i know you guys did something wrong. i know how to work my good time sheet. see, you can get away with the average fish. but not me. >> well, you want to go sit down and talk -- >> [ bleep ] no. you can't -- what you're talking about right there is all -- you cannot do what you're saying you're doing. you can't go bringing something up two years later, well, you didn't serve your disciplinary. you're going to have to serve it now. you can't bring -- who the [ bleep ] do you think you're talking to?[ bleep ] do you think you're talking to? bleep ] do you thin talking to? >> after further review, sanchez's release was scheduled for eight weeks later. but those eight weeks were perilous. >> we're getting closer and

closer to joe's release date, and it's this massive ball rolling downhill, but there always seemed to be some problem that kept occurring. there was an issue with his parole plan. he was denied where he originally wanted to go live. there was a potentially pending charge that was going to maybe keep him incarcerated longer, and then there was an issue about the doctor's availability doing his medical exam, which he needed, and he started to threaten the doctor. >> sanchez eventually overcame all those obstacles, and we were there on the day he was finally released. he was headed to a halfway house. >> i'm requesting the shackles, chains and one last pepper spray. >> each one of these guys, you know, when they're sitting in that cell by themselves, they're either crying in there or they're thinking about their families or daydreaming about getting out or, you know, but sometime they put this fake smile on and try to hide the hurt. but deep down they know they don't like this place. >> everybody is betting i don't make it. i don't want it no more. in here i see too many followers. i don't see too many leaders.

all right, marcus. take care. don't drop the soap. >> the day that joe was released, brian, our cameraman, and i rode in the van with joe but we were only allowed to go to the front gate, and i wanted to know what he was feeling as he was finally leaving the prison, so i asked him to turn around and look at the prison and tell me what his thoughts were. and he said no. >> no, i don't want to look behind. >> why? >> you look back, you come back. this time i'm not looking back. >> joseph sanchez was released on parole on july 1st, 2008, and we, the corrections department, transported mr. sanchez to his program that had accepted him which was delancey street. he was processed in. that was around 7:00 in the evening. at 3:00 a.m. the next morning, joseph sanchez walked away from the program. he was apprehended at a convenience store just down the road from the prison. >> the story was that somehow

joe had made his way back to the gas station, which was just down the road from the prison, and the halfway house was a distance. it was a drive from the prison. so somehow he had gotten back to the area. an off-duty officer had stopped there to get some gas. joe didn't recognize him, but the officer recognized joe, and joe was picked up and taken into custody. to me, joe is a cautionary tale about our prison system. a lot of these guys will get out, and if they don't have the skills to stay out successfully, more problems will occur. >> coming up -- >> after the stabbing occurred, my brother-in-law asked, he said, do we have an ax? >> a bizarre family murder plot sends a teenager to prison. >> i was in my senior year of high school when i got locked up. >> and 26 years later a middle-aged man walks out of prison. but at bedtime... ...why settle for this? enter sleep number and the

lowest prices of the season. sleepiq technology tells you how well you slept and what adjustments you can make. she likes the bed soft. he's more hardcore. so your sleep goes from good to great to wow! only at a sleep number store, right now, save $600 on our best selling i8 mattress, plus 24 month special financing. learn more at sleepnumber.com know better sleep with sleep number.

homework, girls, and friday night football were paul's priorities when he was last a free man. >> that was me just a few months before i got locked up. >> wow. >> yeah, i was in my senior year of high school when i got locked up. >> are you ready for your picture? >> yeah. >> all right. >> when we met him at indiana state prison, he was 43, had served 26 years of a 55-year sentence and was working as the visiting room photographer. >> all right, look at me. we went digital about three months ago. still kind of learning it. there's a lot of things with the 35 millimeter, you know, i was accustomed to. >> when i first met paul he came up to me because i had a little digital camera and paul had taken photographs of people on family days and whatnot. he had a million questions about photography and, you know, telling me everything he did. so for me he was like one of the most harmless people at the prison. >> have a good one. >> thanks, paul. >> all right. >> with his very simple, sweet demeanor, i was shocked to find out that he and his family had murdered his father. >> growing up we didn't have what you'd say a normal life. i don't know what normal would be though, so i mean i would characterize it as dysfunctional. my dad was an alcoholic. he would rant and rave from the time he got up. on a number of occasions, at least a dozen occasions, my mom would call the hammond police department.

>> he was violent? >> oh, yeah. mom would have maybe a black eye, bloody nose, bloody lip. >> he told us his mother wasn't the only target of his father's violence. he was, too. but it wasn't his idea to kill him. >> i was doing some algebra homework, sitting in my room. my sister walked in, made a comment about dad was really screwing her life up, and we had to do something and all this. and i didn't really think she was serious or anything like this, you know. >> his sister, who was nine years older, and her husband, presented a plan. the murder would take place after his father went to bed. >> it was decided, well, okay, we'll go ahead, we'll get some ether, we'll knock him out, we'll inject air into his veins to simulate a heart attack. >> paul is telling us about the murder of his father. it was a little bizarre. it was reminiscent of a coen brothers film. >> i was supposed to signal out the corner window, and that was, you know, facing this parking lot at the end of the block. they were going to be parked in

there, and i was supposed to shine a flashlight once if he was still awake, twice or more if he was asleep. >> at every turn there was some bizarre little twist. >> so about 9:30, quarter to 10:00 i fall asleep. so there's no signal at 11:00. there's no signal at midnight. i remember my sister thinking, this idiot is probably in there sleeping. i woke up, it was like 10 minutes to 1:00, and i was like, wow, you know, i guess i'm supposed to signal. i mean, all the lights were out, everybody was asleep. i signaled a couple times out the corner bedroom window. >> paul let his sister and brother-in-law into the house where they discovered some of the ether had evaporated while they were waiting for the signal. they decided to go ahead with the plan anyway. so paul and his brother-in-law headed into his dad's bedroom while his sister stayed behind in the living room. he says his mother was asleep in another room. >> my brother-in-law went ahead and had put the ether, you know, tried to smother him with it over his face, and that didn't work. the pillow didn't work, trying to smother him with it. i was at the end of the bed holding his legs down. so then my brother-in-law pulled out a knife, and he got to stabbing him. >> where? >> all over his chest, and so there was like i guess at least 34 stab wounds. >> it didn't take long for his father to die. the next step was to dispose of the body. paul told us they wrapped it up,

put it in the trunk of his parents' car, and headed for a remote wooded area. >> i'm making sure not to go past the speed limit or anything like that, and i look over, and it was like early sunday morning like at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, and there's a cop car on the next block. no matter how fast i go or how slow i go, it was like we would reach the next intersection at the same time. >> the police car eventually veered away, and he continued to the woods where he and his brother-in-law hid the body. a month later his mother cracked under the pressure of keeping the murder a secret. she called a lawyer and eventually told the whole story to the police. they went to the woods and found the body. at this point in the interview he revealed an interesting detail he hadn't mentioned earlier. >> next day my sister went down there. she identified pictures, the body, you know, showed her dad's head and stuff like that, said, yeah, that's him. his body was dismembered. >> why was the body -- you left that part out.

>> yeah. i kind of glossed over that. >> okay, well, go back. >> all right. well, after the stabbing had occurred, you know, my brother-in-law asked, he said, do we have an ax, and i said no. we used to have one in the garage. so we went out there, and he picked out a crosscut saw and a pruning saw. he said, those will do. i'm like, i have no idea what's going on at this time. and so we go back in there, and he dismembers the body. >> where? >> head, arm, arm, torso, leg, leg. >> where? >> in the bedroom. >> on the bed? >> on the floor of the bedroom. on the floor of the bedroom. >> wasn't that messy? >> yeah, it was pretty messy. >> it was a bizarre family situation behind paul's father's murder. the brother-in-law is convicted and given the electric chair. he's the last man to die in the electric chair. everything went wrong about that

execution. >> they had to actually fry him five times because i guess the electric chair wasn't functioning properly at the time. >> his mother is sent away to prison forever. >> both received 55 years for the murder, 45 years for the conspiracy to commit murder. in my mom's case, she'll be 83 years old in about two weeks. as far as i know she's the oldest woman prisoner in the state of indiana. >> and his sister ended up testifying against the rest of the family, and she's out there free. >> my sister received eight years. last time i seen her was 1983 when she was on the witness stand testifying against me and my mom. i remember thinking back then, what hope there's going to be for me after all this time in prison. but maybe i pulled through a little more saner than i expected. i don't know. that's debatable. >> coming up -- >> you'll never see me in khaki again after today. >> paul becomes a free man.

>> i'm on my own. i need to do whatever i can. nothing is free anymore. when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. it starts dissolving the instant it touches your tongue. and neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪ tum -tum -tum -tum smoothies! only from tums

>> we are watching breaking news out of london. matt, what are you learning right now? >> well, richard, the numbers you read off are correct. we're still waiting to see if those casualties increase. this is still an ongoing operation. we haven't heard whether the assailants have been found. we heard there are two of them. there are some sort of unconfirmed reports that they were dressed as santa claus. this night club is in the center of one of istanbul's most popular night scenes. there may have been as many as 500 people inside the club. it's also not clear whether the assailants were among the casualties, whether they were detained or whether they're still at large.

but there is something that all of europe has been girding for this holiday season. now the police have been deployed in several of europe's major cities, including here in london. there's been no claim of responsibility at this early hour, and you can see police are still combing through this scene. richard? >> as i'm watching this, it's about 3:31 a.m. local time there in the new year, and we're getting in these pictures live coming out of what is a very busy and diverse city. we're talking some 13 million, 14 million people in this very large metropolitan area. and you're saying that in this area there were several clubs and in this case we're hearing again that 35 at least killed in this night club attack and according to the associated press, they're gietting some early information an individual

or what we're hearing from istanbul's governor is that some 40 people were also wounded in this assault. they're describing it again as happening in the early hours on sunday and at the moment they, according to the associated press, are looking into this as a terror attack at the moment without saying who might be responsible for this. istanbul, that very eastern point of asia, the nexus between the middle east, this is a city, as you were saying, they were girding for such an attack, hoping something would not happen during this holiday period. but here late in the evening or early in the new year, this attack has happened. as we continue to watch these live pictures coming out of the domestic news agency out of istanbul, we are waiting for

more information because the data that's coming into us is early. if you're just joining us, according to what we are hearing from officials there out of istanbul, an armed attack at a night club leaving 35 people dead and this is according to the turkey's state-run news agency we have been sourcing at the moment. an officer and civilian among the dead. the governor of istanbul also saying according to the associated press 40 others wounded in this assault in the early hours on january 1st, 2017, a sunday local time, 3:34 a.m. right now. we're not sure exactly what time but, again, described as early in the morning, sometime after the new year.

unconfirmed reports of the description of who might have conducted this in terms of appearance, but we do not know according to the governor in terms of this incident of who is responsible, the governor of istanbul -- excuse me, the governor of istanbul is saying, though that, this was a terror attack. jim cavanaugh, msnbc contributor joins us right now. what are you hearing, jim, if anything about the details, scanning these live pictures coming into us from the state-run news agency trying to glean some facts and understanding what's happening, too. it certainly appears from these pictures it is an ongoing theater of an unfortunate, as they're describing it here of a terror attack? >> right, richard. you have the massive police response, the early unconfirmed

reports, the breaking news, released some video of a man dressed in santa claus moving around the night club, the time on the clock is 1:23. i'm assuming that was 1:23 a.m. istanbul time. this likely was the aftermath of a new year's party and again, richard, an unsecured probably location. we're securing world wide the mass gatherings from times square to sydney, australia and yet isis this week have put out communiques night club attacks, and they even said in their communique night club. so it gives us of course

domestically we all harkin back to the night club tragedy in orlando, gunman going in late in the night hours or early in the early morning hours, crowded night club. this may be two actors. you know, wildly shooting. turkey's been plagued with this. we've done a lot of reporting on that from turkey, the bombings from the airport, the assassination recently of the western ambassador, which is so chilling in that video as you can see the killer standing there right behind the ambassador. so turkey, you know, is in the threat zone there and likely this is a terrorist act. they' to go into a night club and shoot just a massive amount of people is generally not the kind of crime motivated by greed. and if it holds true it's two

actors, it's hard to get a second person in here for delusion for mass murder. it likely is terrorism. that's what they got to dig out. the question is is there other actors, whether in turkey or world wide. could it be inspired actors, a directed conspiracy. and, you know, as we're watching this, richard, every single command post in the world is watching this. from nypd to all the command posts in washington, d.c., lapd to across the world, everybody's watching and everybody's saying, you know, what's going on in our town, our city, our state, our arena trying to pick um on it. >> we'll get to that in a second. i want to get your sense of what you're seeing on these pictures if you're able to view what we're seeing, if these are live or slightly tape delayed, as we do see, if you will, new year's eve, at least in appearance revellers leaving some sort of

center area. we see that the number of a ambulances to be numerous. some aren't -- what look to be some steel-clad vehicles also into the area. what are you seeing in these pictures being broadcast by the state-run news agency? >> well, i say s.w.a.t. officers there, tactical officers in their gear, long rifles, bullet-proof vests. those are more than patrol officers. those are tactical officers we call s.w.a.t. officers here, special response teams. we see a lot of ambulance, first responders, paramedics. we see, you know, bystanders and loved ones being con sosolecons. those are s.w.a.t. trucks, heavy police units going in. there was an early report, unconfirmed, that one gunman may

still be at large in the venue. then you would see a s.w.a.t. search. maybe this activity was more inside the building or the venue there. doesn't seem to be a lot of street mayhem like you saw in berlin with the truck attack. they may have it contained to inside the building. >> stand by if you can. joining us on the phone, amen, what are you hearing and what do you know? >> some of my initial assessment it, has all the hallmarks of a terrorist attack, given the hall mark of what has unfolded in turkey, the timing of it, the spectacular nature of what this attack was.

as you can imagine i'm here in new york but i've been calling people -- the account that i'm getting obviously of what has unfolded over the course of the night is somewhat horrifying. one turkish source is telling me they were hearing the gunmen came into the night club dressed almost in -- not in any kind of tactical gear, though that is what they ultimately had underneath but they were almost dressed in their kind of santa claus outfits i was told from one of the turkish people i was talking about. all of this is very preliminary information. they're in a night club, i can tell you having been there myself, it's one of the most popular night clubs in istanbul. if you know anything about istanbul, it has a very vibrant night life. those it's had a lot of violence and instability, it's still a

very large crowd on a weekend. so this particular area, a popular tourist destination, i can assure you there will probably be foreigners among those inside of the night club, don't know anything about the nationalities of the casualties but it also sits right on the golf course and in some of the images on you are screen, you can kind of catch the very base -- it was a very popular destination. you can expect because it's new year's eve, certainly one of the most popular venues in town. so put -- [ no audio ] -- turkish contacts of mine believe at least one gunman was inside the night club still missing. this is a night club that could easily accommodate up to a thousand people. it's a huge venue, two stories,

it was probably very dark. [ no audio ] . >> all right. amonn amen is on the phone with us right now. we are having some technical difficulties with his cell phone connection right now. if, eamon, you can hear me right now, please continue. can you hear me still? >> richard, can you hear me? >> sounds like your connection is a little touch and go at the moment. we do want to get back to you. so if you can perhaps reestablish or get a better signal, that would be fantastic because we have of course further context that i know you can provide on not only that venue where we do believe this terror attack, quote unquote, according to the governor of istanbul has happened but also the environment overall and the

context within -- okay, you can hear me again. >> yes. >> so as we're watching these pictures, give as you sense because many of us that are watching, those viewers who are watching may not have been to istanbul and it,turkey. give us a sense of what it is like there. security levels, generally speaking. and then what area of town this is. >> so this is a part of town that is on the bosters directly and is a very popular area with a lot of tourists, a lot of night goers. the night club itself, as i was saying earlier before we were cut off, it one of those warehouse type of night clubs in the sense that it can easily accommodate up to a thousand people, multiple floors, it's a

huge venue, multiple entry points and multiple, it points as well. security at that night club has certainly been beefed up over the years but because of recent, you know, instability in turkey, recent trierrorist attacks, the fact that is gunman is able to enter a venue like this going to raise a lot of questions among law enforcement officials. given the fact that it is such a popular night club and because of its size, it may have had some vulnerabilities. but you were asking about istanbul in general and istanbul is a large cosmopolitan city that divides asia and europe, it sits on the divide between continental europe and contin t continental asia. the night club we're talking about, i've been here before. extremely popular with night club goers and what have you. i suspect in the coming hours, we're going to see the death

toll dramatically rise depending on how long the gunmen were able to stay inside and i've been hearing from turkish sources there were multiple gunmen involved in this attack, richard. >> msnbc analyst malcolm nance also joining us on the phone. if you look at this with all your expertise, this is something they feared and talked about in all major metropolitan areas, for the reasons brought up by jim cavanaugh and based on the information that has become available to us, either through our sources that we've been able to confirm and those pieces of information that we are not able to confirm, what are you seeing here, malcolm? >> well, what i'm seeing here is something that is to a certain extent inevitable. the whole nature of terrorist

attacks is to do exactly what we're doing right now, is to grab the attention of the entire global media at a time where everyone else would be concerned about terrorist attacks and carry them out in such a way and in such a horrific way as to harness the imagination and fears of the other billion or so people who are watching and listening to the news right now around the world. certainly the methodologies of this attack are not new. up know, what's interesting about it to me is the very fact that it wasn't a suicide bombing, which is the hallmark of how isis generally attacks and kills people. however, we have seen other attacks in turkey and other parts of the world where they've done these mass gun attacks. eamon gave some very, very good context to this having been in those night clubs. many of us have been to europe and seen these types of night clubs, it's just a mass of thousands and thousands of

people in a big giant square space. unlike bataclan in france, you can go to the door and you can hit everyone you aim at and shoot in a wild fashion and you're going to hit people. like he said the death toll is going to rise principally because when you injure people in that environment, it's minutes or -- you know, 10, 15 minutes before law enforcement and medical can get to you, therefore you die in circumstances where a wound may have been survivable. the terrorist who did this took all of this into account. i find the single most fascinating component, the fact that someone dressed as santa claus, as they say, baba noel, st. nicholas, that leads me to believe that it's mere speculation at this point that someone is doing this to mar the season, much less mar the new

year. turkey is -- certainly istanbul is a very, very cosmopolitan place, these are very western-oriented people. they take their associations with the european union and the people who are workers in germany and their extended families and they view themselves as a completely different outlier within the muslim. so whoever did this attack understood that and they went right to a place which is soft, which would have no real security and came in there and carried out a mass murder. whether, you know, how turkey respond to this will be just as interesting. because we've seen some of their -- the attacks that have occurred, they've used them as political leverage to crack down on people that they view as political opponents as opposed

to go after the terrorists. so it's all a very fascinating circumstance, and, you know, security will certainly ramp up here in the united states and around the rest of the around t rest of the world as new year's has rung in he but we shouldn't have -- should have expected something occurred somewhere. >> malcolm, stand by for that. nbc's matt bradley is still with us, too. you out of london are trying to get the latest information as well. are you hearing anything new. >> not a this very moment, but i wanted to build on what malcolm said. turkey and istanbul sits at the center of so many geopolitical cross-currents. it's when we go about the

business of trying to decide who committed this really terrible attack. there's so many fingers to be pointed here. one thing is istanbul has -- turkey as a whole has so many enemies. it's not just islamic state they're fighting in neighboring turkey. there's also a stubborn decades-long kurd irk insurrection to the east and they've been known to launch their own terrorist attacks. islamic state has repeatedly battered istanbul and greater turkey for the last several years, and then there's even a leftest movement from within -- over the last several deck cases. it's still there and still has some power and still has the ability to launch attacks like this one. then there's the circumstance that is malcolm further on again with erdogan, the president of turkey. he's been known to step down on dissent after any attack.

he's used it as a pretext in order to quash his own political dissent. right now he's still reeling from a tempted coup over the summer. he responded to that not only by killing some of the people involved, but xwrchbing thousands and firing tens of thousands of people from their positions. this new year's eve attack was the thing we wanted to see invekted into this situation. thank you, matt, about that. in just a moment, i want to get back to jim cavanaugh. you know, we do not know all the detail right now we were discussing earlier unconfirmed that two attackers dressed in santa claus suits opened fire here in this nightclub. the reina nightclub in istanbul. the "new york times" and a couple others have been saying as such, unconfirmed by nbc or

msnbc at this moment, right after midnight. if indeed one is still either in the venue or at large or one or two and it's unknown, what are they doing? >> well, that's going to be the big question, you hit right on it, richard. if there's an assailant still in the building, there could be innocent people, party-goers, club-goers still trapped as well. so that's, you know, a different calculus. they could be holding hostages, even have a suicide vest. there's lots of possibles. now if they's alone and barrica barricaded, that's a completely different attack for the police. they can deal with that easier. >> now one or more could have

been killed, one or more could have escaped. we don't have a hard number. there was some reporting, you know, that a police officer was killed, you know in the front. this is the thing, that you have a club like malcolm has described and ayman, there's one policeman standing in the front. you know, what happens is the killers shoot the police not just in terrorist attacks, but a courthouse, and then shoot the officer, and they go in. if there's police officers at the metal detector, they shoot them both. that's why you have cough the consent rick rings of security like you see nypd or secret service. that's why you need the long rifles that the officers carry, because when the assailants

come, if they're coming in with any tactical rifle or -- you're going to have to have something to back that up. so that's why that's so important to have that, even though when you see that, you're saying those are -- but likely, you know, if they're dressed or disguised, these unconferred reports of santa claus like ayman talked about, they could walk up to the front door, put out a couple guns, kill the officer. that was just a shoot-fest into a crowded nightclub, and look at our banner here. 40 dead. >> that's an update. we just updated that, at least 40. before we were hearing at least 45, now sources saying at least 40 confirmed dead. quickly here, jim, as i was watching the video numbing in through ntv out of istanbul,

turkey, i can't help but noticed the armored vehicles of various types, one even looped like an mrap, one you could see in iraq that could resist ieds, whole sorts of different equipment they're bringing in. >> right. of course, they don't know what they're dealing with. so a police tactical units, and in some countries even the military will respond to back up the police, so you have those heavy police units that have to come in. those guys could be in there. we've seen many times with, you know, lots of ammo, hand grenad grenades, suicidevests, and

even negotiated some with the terrorists, saved a lot of lives, eventually killed them, we could see some of that action still to unfold, but you were talking about the street scenes. it does look like it is more of a contained scene. we're not seeing this sort of street crimes like we saw in berlin or in knights, with the truck attacks. this looks like it's all inside. i think that goes to, also, as malcolm described it as well, the number of wounded or dead, because 35 dead, it's just 40 wounded, you know, it just harkins you back to the pulse nightclub. one person with a rifle kills all those people. that's how devastating it can be in just a packed crowd. it's hard to defend against it, but one policeman at the door is

not going to get it, if a couple of determined attackers come in, and they want to just kill a lot of people. to get the fear, the fear of terrorism. that's what they get. it's a likely motive, we don't know the absolute motive, but if you follow the motives of violent crime, you know, i say there's power hate, revenge and escape. this is not greed. it's power, it's revenge, it fits right into terrorism motives, so it could likely be that. i think the authorities believe that as well. >> i want to be to ayman just at the top of the hour, jim, but we're about 2, maybe 2 1/2 hours into this. in that process, that timing that you would go through in these situations, hour two or hour three, what does that process if you're law enforcement, if you're part of the military.

if you're coordinating with emergency response administrations. what's happens in hour 2 or hour 3? >> well, they're pressing to the point of contact. that's what s.w.a.t. is doing here, pressing to the point of contact, if the shooters, the actors are still alive, because they have to locate them. they have to then isolate and evacuate and have to eliminate the threat, but they have to push push push until they get to the point of contact. otherwise they can let those people rampage through the building and kill other innocents. that's what the tactical officers do. right question at the right moment, richard, but that's what they're going to do. they're going to press in there, and all of our veterans know this. and our law enforcement people. they're pressing to contact.

>> so that picture, we don't know if it's over our unfolding. the emergency/medical part we can see with the number of ambulances and trauma centers that will be, you know, up all over the city there, and doctors and paramedics and firefighters, you know, all the investigative arms. what we are not seeing is the worldwide intelligence spinup. i guarantee from networks across the world and, you know -- phones are being listened to, web sites are being watched, and everybody's you know, on their game to see if there's any more to this. even if it's not a direct contact, can it spin off to a motive of another inspired actor in another city or country somewhere. it's in everybody's face now. so it heightens the alert, and to be smart and b