i'm alex witt. good to be back. "morning joe" starts right now. >> it's just a few hours before the congress ends and house republicans decided to put ethics oversight. >> it seems like a great opportunity for the incoming president to show his independence and show he wants to drain the swamp. >> this is not zero argument to say there is some question about due process. i think by the time we reconvene tomorrow they will have come to their senses because the optics of it are absurd. >> come on. >> they won't do it tomorrow. >> got to hold it higher on the forehead. >> up here? >> no, up there. >> pointed right here? >> is that what carson did right there? say yeah.

halpern? >> buy soybeans today is all i'm saying. >> by the time we reconvene this morning mark halpern said the house republicans who in the closed door meeting the day before tried to completely gut the ethics panel. mark halpern, how do you do that thing that you do? >> i want almost zero credit for this because it seemed the most obvious thing in the world it was not distainable. >> yesterday, we had the majority leader here. he actually said that he was going to vote for it and you could see everything falling in line that actually, you know, not only kevin mccarthy but paul ryan and everybody was falling in line and following up. as bob costas reported, the phone calls started coming. >> the guys in the closed door

session on monday night, it was like they cut through the screen of the back door to break into the house and they got caught on the porch and they fled. >> what a stupid way. you're like a republican going, okay, well, this is the most historic lead we have electorally since 1948. what should we do? first thing, gut the ethics rules. >> they are so intent in showing they were going to turn over the tables on the temple the first day. watch what we can do but picked the wrong issue to do it on. the media coverage was intense. flooding their offices followed and donald trump tweeting about it was probably the final nail in the could have when paul ryan and kevin mccarthy got together with these guys. >> bob costas reported, according to his reporting, they received thousands of calls from

constituents. >> what inspired those calls? was it people on their own calling the congressional switch boards or interest groups or on followers of donald trump following his tweet? >> i don't care. >> the reason i care is for the future, right, which is what inspired that. >> i can tell you. >> when the phone calls start ringing in your office and you're in congress and you're over on the house floor and you're getting a thousand phone calls and they keep flooding in. >> i get that. >> you get a call in the cloak room and people say, okay, there is a real problem with this. then you try to figure out are they like row bow calbo calls o constituents being concerned? if you get thousands of calls it's a five-alarm fire.

>> i don't think how anybody thought it was a good decision after 2016 election played out. the anger at washington establishment think they are above the rules after all the outrage of hillary clinton being above the rules in so many instances, this is how they choose to introduce their new ten tour to the american people. >> good morning. mika? >> where is mika? >> south of france. >> exactly. or on westchester county. same difference. willie is back! very good. >> i was here last week. you were -- the week before. finally we are all back together again. >> two ships passing in the night. could we have that barry manilow song going to break? mike barnicle, keep going. >> legendary! >> no, no. >> we got mike barnicle! >> legendary! >> and elise jordan, political writer for "the new york times."

and nick conforsori was like buddy on the christmas morning special when we broke news there was going to be a nuclear arms race for the 21st century. >> fun morning. >> yeah. that was a fun morning. >> in our pajamas. >> exactly. in washington, senior write at politico, jake sherman. maybe you can, first of all, smile. >> there you go! >> good morning. >> you were down there, jake. talk to us about what exactly unfold would yesterday on capitol hill as republicans tried to gut the ethics committee and promptly get slapped down by constituents? >> a few amazing things happened. in the office of congressional ethics a lot of complaints about about it. members don't like increased scrutiny and having to answer to anom m anonymous tips which they allow. house republicans didn't have

the decentsy to call these people and tell these dozen or so staffers they were about to lose their jobs. now, a few things. the leadership, paul ryan and kevin mccarthy aides said they were vaguely aware of the memorial day which means they didn't want to stop it and had no idea of the political implications or couldn't stop it which means they are weaker than ever and didn't know how to stop it. a whole host of things that we could deduce from this episode which is a huge embarrassment and hugely tone deaf, everything you could say about house republicans. one good element here and shows that the gop leadership is willing to strong-arm the majority of members which they haven't been able or willing to do in the past. >> something that paul ryan is going, at certain times he has to do what john boehner would

never do, which is stand in front of the conference and say i'm your leader. you voted for me to be your leader. you dragged me back into a job i did not want. you're either going to follow me on this important issue or you can hire somebody else. there are points when people have to do that. critiques of newt gingrich as a leader, two or three times he pulled that card out and said this is important for the conference. you do it or elect another leader. >> well, paul ryan did that on day one yesterday. kevin mccarthy got in a room with him and gave him an you will ma-- ultimatum. pull this out and vote. they got rid of it right on the spot. you have to have that. >> i think john boehner, for all of the positives people are saying about him now, that is one thing john boehner was never willing to do, follow me or find

somebody else. >> right. >> that is the way you lead. >> it was a very chaotic day on capitol hill. kasie hunt was chasing members through the hall. here is one conversation she had with the congressman from texas. >> reporter: why is this most important thing for congress to be focused on right now? >> it isn't. that's the thing. it is not! >> shfs shortly after reversed. >> i think it's a black eye for ryan. i think it's more like a toast stub in the sense he -- i think he taught some of the members a lesson about communications, discipline and sensibility. ryan has a republican president or he will have a republican president and he is going to be able to maybe, if things go well for the administration and the republican majority, get some victories that can hold the party together on things like tax reform and other issues they care about and boehner didn't have that option. >> paul ryan, mike barnicle,

need to continue down this path and learn from some of the great leaders as far as effectiveness goes. nancy pelosi i put her near the top of the list. she knew how to lead the democratic caucus. tip o'neill knew how to lead the democratic caucus. one of my favorite stories ever about tip o'neill, after the beirut attack in 1983 he called the democrats together. richard reeve said he called the democrats together and they expected him to give talking points how had he attacked reagan's foreign policy. tip o'neill stood before them and said, today, we are not democrats, we are in americans. if anybody in this room criticized your commander in chief when i tel you you can criticize the commander in chief, you will have ronnie

reagan to worry about, not tip o'neill. >> 240 kills in the beirut barracks and democrats were pacified, calmed down by tip who did exactly that. >> that is leadership. >> i cannot imagine happening monday in watching happening to nancy pelosi or tip o'neill or newt gingrich. but it happened to paul ryan. nick, you've done so well covering the flow of money in politics. what do you figure they did not hear in the word ethics when they were there in that room on monday? >> an inversion of the usual politics of congress and their constituents. the usually thing is a congress is unpopular but congress persons are popular, right? they tend to be immune from the unpopularity of the institution. what happened here is that they all misjudged and thought it was about them personally.

in fact, it came about the institution which is one of the most unpopular in the country. people hate congress and we are coming out of an election where people feel so disconnected from and angry at this institution that it was just kind of crazy. blake farrenhal was sued for sexual harassment. >> he was? >> yes. the people who don't want this ethics office are the people who get dinged by it. the 70 members in that conference said this is a bad idea and voted against it are probably the good guys here. >> wow. the timing was just unbelievable but let's hope this is a sign of things to come. >> wake-up call. >> as elise said, of all the times to do it you do that following the 2016 campaign, it

was all about draining the swamp. >> one other interesting element of this. >> and fill it up with goldman sachs. >> right. donald trump tweet yesterday, had he a caveat in there said, yeah, it's probably unfair but crazy don't do this. donald trump right now is popular as some of these congressmen in their own districts is more popular than all of them. we will see how long it lasts. at the moment he has more power. i believe constituent calls were big but the donald trump tweets were the last message to them said if donald trump is telling us not to do this, we ought to back away from it. >> willie, shows you what is the ailing the republican congress since 2010. no leadership and tea party members elected then and no one guiding them. they were all independent ages and happened with the huge crowd. all independent agents. paul ryan and donald trump can

help each other here. if paul ryan needs help he can ask trump. power of a tweet you talked about. i need your help on this. you want me to move bill a, i need you to put pressure on my republican members because you're more popular in their district in kansas than they are and you're exactly right and that is how these two people who really aren't comfortable with each other can actually help each other. >> a big majority of the house members republicans have never had a republican president so they are learning but they are learning with the republican president who is not afraid to attack the republican party and not beholden to the republican party. the big issues tax reform and affordable care act or repeal or replace infrastructure and big things they do in the beginning mean more than these little flaps. credit, cross donald trump at your peril was learned yesterday. >> we talked about paul ryan. haets ta

let's talk about chuck schumer. chuck schumer is one of these guys that can do two things at once. get the boxing gloves on and pound you, and then he can walk outside afterwards and sit there and talk to you and figure out how to do a deal. yesterday, he got the boxing gloves on. >> setting a new tone. senate majority leader one day into the job chuck schumer looking to usher a new democratic. the transition was official yesterday during the swearing in of the new congress. speaking with politico, more than a dozen senators and top aides say schumer is working hard to bring the various factions of the democratic party together. the most obvious change they say is the leadership team the senator has created and promised to consult before making key decisions. a big shift from reid's taking a hard line approach and senator schumer has previously said he is ready to work with president-elect trump in some's

but used his remarks on the senate floor yesterday to offer several warnings to the soon to be commander in chief. >> we would hold president-elect trump accountable to the values that truly make america great. but will fight him tooth and nail when he appeals to the basehor instincts that diminish america and its greatness. instincts have too often plagued this country and too often plagued his campaign. our challenge is to entrench for mere tweeting. making america great again requires more than 140 characters per issue. with all due respect, america cannot afford a twitter presidency. many americans are afraid, mr. president-elect, that instead of rolling up your sleeves and forcing serious policies, for

you, twitter suffices. i am not afraid of donald trump. i am not afraid of the republicans. we are going to hold their feet to the fire. i am actually excited about this opportunity. >> jake sherman, i know you spoke to senator schumer yesterday. what tone he is trying to set and how he is trying to be different be harry reid there? it was a remarkable conversation. he is trying to portray republicans as kind of instituting chaos in repealing the health care law and using the phrase make america sick again which i guess you could say is a play on donald trump's phrase. but he also is bristling at the suggestion he and donald trump are friend. he is saying, listen. i've run into the guy at new york political events and he said i ask a lot of rich new york democrats to help me out and thank god donald trump, when he was a democrat, hosted a fund-raiser at mar-a-lago to help me take back the senate again.

i think he is trying to put some space between himself and donald trump and it's kind of smart because he has progressives nipping at his heels. he doesn't want to be seen as a deal cutter and when he sat down with us yesterday in his office shortly after that speech he took a very hard line and said if republicans are appealing the health care law we will not sit down with them in a room and we will not help them. they need to fix this. if they want to tinker with it, we will help them but not help them be a passenger in donald trump's car. >> what people don't understand, elise, about washington and don't understand how effective leaders. i talked about tip o'neill and nancy pelosi. people can pound you on the floor and attack you on the floor but when it's time to actually sit down and do a deal and make things work for the country, they can do it. it seems to me chuck schumer, anybody that is trying to paint the fact that donald trump and chuck schumer have known each other and dealt with each other

and see that as a negative don't understand that is what we have been missing in washington all of these years. people that couldn't sit down at the end of the day after a long, hard fight and come to a solution. >> democrats also need to understand if they really want to antagonize republicans, the best thing that they can do is paint schumer as having some kind of relationship with donald trump. that gets under republicans skin so badly the idea that schumer and trump are going to be working together. >> he is actually, nick, the irony he is more comfortable really, donald trump talking to chuck schumer than, say, paul ryan or kevin mccarthy. that is not really a big shock. they are both new yorkers. they are both kind of street brawlers. they bh grew up in the same city. they have the same shared interests.

donald trump doesn't --, you know, other than going there and having rallies and having tens of thousands of people, he doesn't really know jaynesville, wisconsin, culture as well as he knows schumer's culture. >> schumer and trump come from the same kind of tracks in a sense. they are scrappers and inhabited the same world in new york a long time so i think there is roll a instance of comfort there. i'm interested to seeing schumer's strategy. i think the president had planned and promised and fixed and heal washington and voters would blame obama if that didn't happen. trump has promised to blow up washington. and i'm not sure the consequences of blocking and obstructing for democrats will be the same as they were for republicans which were actually pretty good over the last few years. >> we will see. i go back to it, mark.

i think the great challenge for the president-elect is going to be dealing with health care. republicans want it repealed today. if they repeal it today, it's the biggest trap because democrats are rightly going to say you did nothing but fight us on this. we're never going to do anything to allow you to put a replacement there and trump has already said don't repeal it unless you have the replacement ready. there is that friction there. if they repeal it before having a complete bill ready to go that provides people the same health care, they are walking into a political trap. >> the way they are going to split the difference or repeal it i think with the delay for the repeal -- >> right. i know. that is a political trap waiting to happen. >> they have to do it because the demand for their constituents, their core constituents to appeal it right away in the next month is too

high -- >> let me ask you this. how many years has it been since obamacare has passed, six? >> yes. >> so six years. the republicans have been screaming repeal for six years and they are no closer to a replacement and a solution for president obama's health care plan than they were six years ago. >> i disagree. i think they have got to make some tough choices about options and the 20 million who have coverage. >> i'm saying they don't have -- >> they have -- >> a package. >> -- i think 75% agreement. >> if they come out and talk about health savings accounts. >> they will. >> then donald trump, if he signs a bill like that will lose wisconsin, will lose michigan, will lose ohio and pennsylvania and north carolina and will lose a lot of people who voted for him. >> that's what the party has run on if six years. >> that's not donald trump's party. >> demand subsidies for the

people who have gotten health insurance. demand the continuation of the preexisting condition provision and ghned something they argue is universal access to coverage, i believe. >> what is universal access to coverage mean? >> it's what the republican party has run on for six years. >> people will have an ability to buy a plan even if there isn't a plan that they can afford, there will be plans available. the problem it does not do much good for you if you can't afford to buy one or don't have the subsidies you need to buy one. i think fascinating so many pieces of this bill, this program that people don't understand. it's not just the coverage or the expansion of medicaid. it's way of bringing down costs of medicines over years and years and so complicated which is why one reason democrats were

so bad at messaging it over years. >> the fact they so garbled the messaging, the selling points to the affordable care act. >> it cost them the election. mark this down. it cost them election in '10 and '14 historically because they couldn't explain it. americans understand now. members of my family understand now. a lot of people that drove around in pickup trucks in my old district with trump bumper stickers on on the back are on obamacare. you take that away from them, the democrats will enjoy massive victories in '18 and '22. >> to that exact point -- >> by the way, the democrats aren't going to have to explain anything because if you take away my republican friends obamacare, they won't vote for the congressman, the senators, or the president that does that. >> to that exact point. one of the principle messaging points of the republicans who

want to just repeal obamacare right now, just repeal it look at health care costs. it's gone up. instead of 112 a month you're charged 175. these are a huge percentage of people who have never had health care! >> alex, i'll go to break but promise me on the other side jack will tell me -- i think it may have been sam rayburn, any jackass can kick down a barn and takes a carpenter to build one. >> carrot top. >> i thought it was either sam rayburn or carrot top. >> rayburn quoted it. >> it was sam rayburn who actually said that. there you go. well, but he was channeling carrot talk who said something remarkably similar. >> he swiped it. >> ford announces it's going to invest $700 million into a plant in michigan creating 700 new

jobs. what role did the incoming trump administration play in that decision? this is getting kind of crazy. the gm tweet. ford deciding they are going to stay and help make america great again. plus we will speak with three leading senators on capitol hill. republicans tom coburn and rand paul and democrat joe manchin. a man who could be senator of my state any time, willie! >> think about that. senator karins! >> forecast like your weather! >> wrong. >> you never know, right? you never know. let's talk about the big weather stories out on there. remember the drought we talked about three to four years in california? we are ending that in central california. 2 to 3 feet of snow in the mountains and another 2 to 3 feet coming and any travel trouble from san francisco south

wards. 2 to 4 feet expected in addition to what we have had in the mountains. this is storm one of three. by the time we are done with this we could see some areas up to 10 to 12 feet of snow. we are telg with a little bit of wet weather and snow in area of maine and cleared out new england after a rainy day yesterday and cold air moves in along with the lake-effect snow machine and areas near syracuse and water town, two feet of snow. fog early today and enjoy the warm on the east coast. about as warm we are going to be the next week or so. maybe even a little bit of snow coming for a little areas. st. louis a little bit of snow tonight and cape cod could get a couple of inches on friday. and eye on the southeast come friday night and saturday. everybody knows what atlanta and other areas in the south when they get ice. a possibility in the days ahead. more details to come. nice shot at times square in new york city. drying out after three days of wet and gloom. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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>> look over there. >> greatest that ever been. >> amazing. >> he is the greatest that ever been. >> completing one of his final duties in office and swearing in newly elected senators yesterday. meanwhile, after swearing in the new congress yesterday, house speaker paul ryan spent time taking pictures with members of the house. here is what happened when kansas congressman roger marshall posed with his family. watch his son in the middle. >> are you all right? you want to put your hand down? are you going to sneeze? >> he is sneezing. >> he wasn't sneezing. that is roger marshall's teenage son dabbing. ryan tweeted the following.

still don't get what dabbing is. congressman marshall tweeted about his son just so you know, speaker ryan, he is grounded. >> i'm so confused. >> it's an old dance move. cam newton does it when he scores a touchdown. it's a celebration. myad is in the united states state congress. paulyan wasn't having any of it. >> that's what the kids do these days? >> smuggle the dabbing through customs. >> really? carrot top, you know what he used to say did dabbing? >> staunchly opposed. >> you served with carrot top, didn't you? >> i did. two terms. he was on the intel committee with us. >> did efficient the props in the meetings? >> it was awful! you'd be sitting there talking about, you know, russia's nuclear suitcases. >> he would drop a watermelon. >> you sit there and they would tell you they put the russians in the airport, that they

actually put them in lockers in airports, nuclear suitcases and carrot top is over here -- it's hard to focus! >> rubber chicken! >> it's hard to focus. >> that was congressman gallagher. >> what did he serve? two terms? >> he did. >> lost a bitter primary. >> actually, ironically, bill karins beat him before he became senator. >> bill karins has a dark past too. coming up, dueling huddles on capitol hill. president obama meets with democratic leaders on how to save obamacare. while vice president-elect mike pence meets with republicans on how to dismantle it. kasie hunts joins us live next. tech: at safelite, we know how busy your life can be. mom: oh no... tech: this mom didn't have time to worry about a cracked windshield.

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we are talking about a lot of things right now. we were talking about -- >> live is a potpourri. >> it is. johnny carson, it is still remarkable to me that you got to watch that man every night. >> and ed mcmahon, too. oh, oh, oh, good one, john! >> it was unbelievable. we are talking about carson because you said that gallagher

was first on carson in 1975. >> we went from carrot top on the air. >> of the intel committee. >> and said he was inspired by a performance standpoint by gallagher. did you know the whole watermelon busting thing goes back to young gallagher's childhood. when he was 10 he dropped a watermelon and broke two toes opinion he had a hatred for watermelons that he started smashing them. >> there should be a biopick. who could play that role? >> gallagher behind the scene. >> john cleese. >> that would be great. >> programming note. on the 20th we will be in washington, d.c. -- what are you laughing about? >> it's going to be a good show. >> the inauguration. you don't laugh about that. we will be covering the inauguration of the 45th president of the united states.

one week later on january 27th we are in huntsville, alabama. willie geist, tell them why. >> gallagher has a show in huntsville on the 29th. >> no, the 27th. >> from the jokes on you comedy tour. >> i think 27th and 29th. >> two night exclusive engagement. >> we are doing this show there on the 27th. joining us -- we should just go to break and start over! let's go to washington, d.c. and talk to ksaie hines. >> i bet you're glad you're here. >> we will not ask you about gallagher or on congressman carrot top. >> thank god. i know as much about that as i know about dabbing which is apparently the kids are doing now. >> all of the kids are doing it. >> republican lawmakers are, obviously, wanting to repeal obamacare. they have been promising their

constituents since 2010 they are were going to do that. what is the strategy? >> we are looking on capitol hill today because dueling meetings president obama is talking to house democrats. that is a rare thing as you know. mike pence appearing at the microphone with the house leadership talking with repealing the health care law. it's actually turning out to be a little stickier, i think, for republicans than many people anticipated. a couple of things to watch for here. first of all, for democrats, one thing we are starting to see on the messaging front is democrats talking a lot about medicare. they know the word obamacare what people perceive as obamacare is very unpopular. medicare, on the other hand, isn't. for people getting health care through the law and don't associate it with the president a disconnect there how democrats with figure out out to

communicate about this and it might make a difference. on the republican side there are some divisions starting to brew about exactly how to go about this because the repeal part of is a lot easier than the replace. they can destroy the two things that hold up this marketplace with budget reconciliation rules so that takes 51 votes. they destroy the mandate and take away the government subsidies and the market is likely to collapse but they need 60 votes to put it back. so there is a lot of competing pressure, that freedom caucus that gave john boehner and is now heck'ing will paul ryan to a certain degree they want forced time lines to do both before the mid elections. i'm not sure that is possible. >> jake, donald trump has said we are not going to repeal it unless we have a replacement ready. obviously, that is extraordinarily important to a lot of the white working class voters that put him into power in those rust belt states.

are the republicans on capitol hill listening to donald trump on that front or just go ahead and repeal it, despite what he said publicly? >> so they have repealed it like 75 times. so i don't think they are going to listen to him at all on this. mike pence is going to be a critical figure because a lot of these guys know mike pence. he is a former house guy and former house leadership guy. they have his cell phone number. what schumer told us yesterday is what house republicans have been telling us behind the scenes for years. you cannot keep the good provisions in this bill that republicans want to keep without billions of dollars. you just can't. no way to do it. >> right. >> unless republicans are going to blop down billions of dollars to save the popular elements of this bill that republicans say they want to save, they are going to be gutting the law, period, the end. so i don't know. i agree with what mark said that they are 75% there in theory and they agree on a lot of these elements, but i think the last 25% which you guys said is going to be very difficult and is

already proving to be very thorny. >> nick, do you think they understand how much this is going to cost them? they can go back and say congratulations we repealed obamacare but the price tag on that, to avoid a massive political blowback will be in the billions. >> look. if you keep the popular part which is forcing insurers to accept sick people but don't keep the unpopular part, which is making healthy people sign up you create a huge liability for their insurers and tick them off. i think one thing that they have going for them people on o-care and don't know they are on o-care and getting into the medicaid expansion in indiana with mike pence and aren't aware the health care they are getting now is through president obama's health care reform which they hate. there is so much confusion about what this program is and how it works and who it serves. a certain kind of cloud of war that could help them in the

midterms. >> take it away and there will be far greater clarification. jake sherman, thank you so much. we really appreciate it. kasie, stay with us. up next, mika faxed in her most read pages from the south of father and sent one in from his father. "morning joe" is back in a minute. your insurance company won't replace

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china is respond to go president-elect trump's assertion that it isn't doing enough to crack down on neighboring north korea. trump tweeted on monday that king jong un's claim, quote, won't happen and followed up with china is tagging out massive amounts of money in u.s. and totally un-sided trade but won't help with north korea. nice. at a press conference yesterday,

a spokesman for china's ministry said, quote. adding that china has jointly passed several resolutions with other parties it says on north korea's nuclear program. so mika's dad, former national security adviser dr. brzezinski, delivered a speech last month at the nobel peace prize forum in norway. he tackles challenges for the incoming trump administration. russia and china. he writes, in part, the following.

the u.s. should not act toward china as if it were already an enemy. significantly it should not favor india as america's principle ally in asia and almost guarantee a closer connection between china and russia. nothing is more dangerous than the to the u.s. than such a close connection. >> we spoke with david ignatius about this a couple of weeks ago. kissinger the opening to china in '71 and before sin ski -- the idea was balance the soviet union. we have over the past decade, nick, we certainly have been paying a lot more attention to china than we have russia. now, obviously, donald trump and his efforts, his determination to actually have a positive relationship with vladimir putin

and russia, really changes that equation. >> it does. i think trump's thinking is observe two-way. i think he thinks of his relationship with him and kind of a second party or second country. i think thinking about it in terms of a four-way or five-way move is new for him and he'll find out there is a thing or not. i do think it's a huge shift in american foreign policy to go from seeking allies in the fight against terrorism as the overriding goal. >> right. >> toward kind of american -- around the world which has been our goal the last 50 years. >> what's interesting and, elise, so interesting about how we look towards russia and towards china. and i guess it's because, you know, we are all, you know, in one way or another children of

the war. now russia, we see donald trump actually reaching out and trying to make this alliance with vladimir putin and it's offensive to us. and, yet, in the 1990s, we were stumbling over ourselves to extend, you know, mfn to china, despite the fact china was abusing human rights, stealing intellectual property and behaving as badly as vladimir putin is doing right now. i think that is something we are probably sorting there. i will tell you i am nervous, ke i think most americans and most foreign policy people, that donald trump's comfort level with vladimir tin. that said, i think it requires all of us to sit back and do what dr. brzezinski is doing here and say, okay, what is the difference and how do we balance

china with russia, with india and all of these different parts? >> i think we can all agree we need better relations where russia. the problem is how donald trump is going about it and his coziness and flatter and juvenile tweets, it really is unbecoming for a future president of the united states to behave this way with a hostile power. it's fine to have a good relationship but do it from strength, not from weakness and just look like you're sucking up all the time. >> so let me pressure you on that. again, just for argument sake. why is russia a hostile power, any more of a hostile power than is china? >> well, they were acting -- >> i think we need to know the involvement of what actually happened in the election. i think that at this point it is overpoliticized. i think trump has contributed to that by his behavior and his

over-the-top attitude towards putin. >> the tweeting and comforting. >> exactly. >> and encouraging putin. >> exactly. he has created this virpt that has now come back to bite him a little bit. >> obviously, nick, you're exactly right. the hacking is a massive, the weaponization of this. the chinese and israelis and everybody else and we hack as people say they weaponize that hacking. i guess i was looking at it as a big picture beyond that. >> with china, one of the principle things that president-elect trump is going to have to deal with is china's increasingly growing sphere of influence in africa and south china sea and south asia. >> china is a future super power and russia is not. >> yes. >> that is the way it is. >> is that the difference? >> yes. he should be focus how do we counter and manage the rise of china. it's the shift and the pivot in

american foreign policy for good reason, i think. >> yeah. i think if he approached russia differently than he has. >> maybe. >> then maybe make more sense. are you right about china and this goes back to my days in congress where i think we have been too easy on china. i think we have been so desperate to get into china that we have been in ways that haven't helped us. i don't have as much a problem with him being tough towards china as i do with the russia aspect of it. >> my concern with this china policy, i don't really have a problem with the taiwan tweet if he had something to follow it up. i think saying we are abandoning one china is antagonizing china for no reason at this early stage and he hasn't walked into office. i think he has to be thinking many, many steps ahead and i haven't seen much evidence that

there is a broader strategy. >> i agree with david ignatius, it's not a bad thing to keep china off balance. you need to have that follow-up strategy. if he wants to trade taiwan for tougher actions with north korea, that is worth it and i do know, we all know that when he was with barack obama in the first meeting, barack obama said, yeah, you worry about obamacare all you want. you're going to be worried about north korea the first second you sit in my chair. i have to worry about actually going to break because alex is yelling in my ear. coming up, "the washington post" robert costas joins with his latest reporting on how the house ethics amendment passed in the first place despite top leaders weighing against it. then we will talk about the new congress when we return. hey, need fast heartburn relief?

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♪ that is a good story. if that is what you're hearing from the cia, that's what you should say on the air. that is a big, big story. oh, wachlt we ait. we are on. >> carrot top is coming back to congress. >> special election. >> is that carl perkins? could you turn it up? any time you play carl perkins, i don't know what has gotten into q but i love that. great stuff right there. ♪

>> i like it. so cue is out? okay. any way. so' lea elise, you want to talkt what you're hearing from the cia? >> no, i've been telling you about intelligent source and politicization of russian hacking incident because it's handled so different from other hacking incidents. you just look historically, i mean, we have foreign hostile actors attacking various targets with impunity on a regular basis and sometimes they are fairly big attacks. so why in this case, if it is sweeping and huge as it is, why has it been so public? and if it is to the extreme nature that it's being described, that would demand a pretty significant response.

>> from barack obama? >> yes. >> in the past, right. if it were that bad. the intel community -- >> either barack obama is being too reticent to act and he should have done more and it confirms publics were suspicions that he always is leading from behind, and not taking enough action. or the climate this year that has been encouraged fully by donald trump by cozying up to putin and, you know, his campaign's close ties to russia, the excrete knee that is received has created this perfect storm that has cast so much doubt. last night, i don't know if anyone watched -- >> retaliating and don't know about it. >> exactly. >> the policy is we are not going to tell you if we are doing it which sounds like a good policy to me. >> yeah. we s quiet. >> that's why i think evidence is important. >> are there questions right now among the sources that you're talking to about how widespread

this russian hacking episode was? >> or just what the evidence exactly is. the fact that it's always being tossed around at 17 different intelligence agencies are in agreement on this. what does that really mean? what agencies -- why would some of the intelligence agencies even be involved? >> wasn't there a "the washington post" story that they had to walk back on that issue. no, they had to walk back the vermont story. but the -- irremembering they had to walk back that 17 different agencies story. >> are you saying there should be an appropriate level of skepticism and concern at the same time? and i don't think that trump is helping himself at all. he could have killed this story. >> you're saying if trump stayed out of the way that actually there would have been more skepticism about the claims? >> exactly. instead, he has taken this to level 15 by attacking the cia,

which i think is horrible and a terrible decision. do you that privately. you don do that out in public if you have a problem with the agency. you can come in not trusting your intelligence operatives but you do that behind closed doors. you clean how. nixon didn't trust his cia when he went in. the way he has handled this has been a disaster and it's damaging to america's intelligence operations. >> so it is interesting, willie, we have heard the head of the fbi and cia believe that russia has worked together -- has worked to try to impact the election. but the evidence, it seems to be people are still trying to find the evidence that actually connects the dots. >> and they are trying to -- even if they agree about the hacking, they are trying to find out what the intent of the hacking was. was it specifically to make donald trump president of the united states as some of the intel community have said? or to create chaos within our electoral system. >> what the russians do constantly everywhere.

>> donald trump last night tour point tweeted this. the intelligence -- he put the word intelligence in quotation marks, briefings on called, quote, russian hacking was delayed until friday. perhaps more time needed to build a case. very strange. a senior u.s. intelligence official with direct knowledge of this tells cbs news the heads of the nsa, cia and fbi, as well as the director of national intelligence are scheduled to brief trump friday on the russia hack intelligence. the senior official says this was always the plan. nothing changed. another official previously told nbc the briefing was on thursday. he added he is calling out the men and women of the intelligence community the way he called out lockheed and boeing but these are public servants. >> yeah. >> i don't know why he is attacking these people. >> the intel community. >> the intel community. >> it does so much damage to intel collection. we are trying to recruit sources

and you have the president who is the recipient of this knowledge. this is the reason people put their live on the line so that their information -- the reason they are willing to betray their country and terrorist organization because they think it might make a difference. he is saying i discounts this, it's really damaging. >> he is admitting he hasn't seen the intelligence yet. somehow he knows it's wrong and fally. maybe the best thing you do is get the briefing and listen to it and then decide. >> yeah. the big thing, hopefully, you will get jim comey and mike rogers and john brennan all in the room with donald trump on friday. you'll get the principals there and mr. clapper as well. >> get him in the room and get the evidence. >> he the election was not hacked, right? the election was legitimate. he won. that can't be taken away from him. he doesn't lose anything by taking this seriously, i think.

>> again, when you have these four people in front of him, it is incumbent on them to get him the evidence. and if they get the evidence that elise said some people in the intel community are not so sure they have yet to place before him but if they get him the evidence, i would suspect he would have no other option than to come out and say that they told me that russia hacked it and that they were trying to do this or trying to do that. whatever the evidence shows. but there has been, obviously, a level of hysteria around there. i think donald trump tweets have fed into. willie, as we saw when he got together with mattis he changed his opinion on torture after

having a knowledgeable person come in and say this works better than that. i have no reason to believe that wouldn't happen here. i think everybody will breathe a sigh of relief when they do get together with him. >> he has shown moments he will respect the opinion of someone in the room who knows more about him. what if the evidence they present to him is that russia did interfere in the election and on his behalf and putting their thumb on the scale for donald trump. could he come out publicly and accept that and say maybe there was wrongdoing and maybe i'm not the legitimate president. he can't do that. >> he doesn't have to because the inferring we are talking about the theft and public release of fake documents. they were not fake but they were stolen. >> julian assange went out of his way to say he didn't get it from the russians and didn't

answer the third-party courier. the relationship there. but could it have been from a did you say gruntled bernie sanders supporter? assange hesitated a bit. >> you're not going to believe everything that julian assange says. what it does to the -- what do the donald trump tweets mean in that community. a president cannot deal in gossip and rumor. he has to have the briefers and have professional material presented to him. general flynn can sit in that meeting on friday and question and argue back and forth with the briefers and i'm sure he will but at the end of the day you have to sit with the principals who know what they are talking about. >> they need to brill the evidence and weigh the evidence and move forward.

most of us have assumed that vladimir putin had a personal grievance against hillary clinton going back to 2011. that has been the assumption. so we will see exactly what the intel community gathers and presents to the president-elect. >> the president obama ordered the investigation and he'll hear it first and donald trump will get it on friday. turn to capitol hill. republicans sent their first day of 115th congress walking back their attempt to remove ethics sites over house members and in the caucus behind closed doors on a federal holiday. lawmakers awoke to outrage and angry constituent calls and late in the in the morning donald trump tweeted with all of the congress has to work on do they have to make the weakening of the watch dog as unfair as it may be their number one priority and focus on so many other

things of far greater importance? #dts for draining the swamp. house members went into a emergency meeting in the basement of the capitol. let's bring in msnbc political analyst robert costas. have you a remarkable piece in "the post" today. walk us through this. >> it started monday night. a lot of lawmakers were coming back to washington from the break and bob goodlad forced together a proposal that many members have privately long wanted and get rid of this office of congressional edgics which is an independent watchdog within the house to police members and make sure they are not stepping over the line but a lot of members are grumbling to me and other reporters for years about this group. they don't like the excrete knew and other watchdogs on the outside say it's a great group and they got rid of it. >> bob, what is their chief complaints and do any of their

complaints seem to have credence based on what you've heard? >> their chief complaint is allegations can be made against them through this office of congressional ethics. and oftentimes they feel vulnerable to the allegations being out there should they be put forward by a staffer or someone else and they feel like their political careers are put at risk when these allegations come to light. and they don't feel like they have a full table, a full opportunity to make their case. >> robert, what did paul ryan know about this amendment monday evening and when did he know it? >> speaker ryan knew about what goodlat and others were up to push this amendment long before monday night. ryan argued against it, as did house majority leader kevin mccarthy. they were in kind of a corner politically. as much as they argued to the face-to-face conversations of their members to not do this, they knew there was such an appear tied to get rid of it.

at least 19 hours between monday and tuesday morning, there is a sense that maybe this has to happen and maybe make reforms to the office of congressional ethics if that is what the majority wanted but they ultimately pulled back. >> what was decisive? yesterday morning we had kevin mccarthy on and he said he is going to support it and gave all indications that paul ryan would be supportive of it and the direction it would go. is donald trump's tweeting made the difference? was it the phone calls from constituents that seemed to make the difference? talking to members and reporting on this story all day yesterday, what did you find to be decisive in the republicans making a 180 turn on this issue? >> actually, joe, i think the period after "morning joe" yesterday from 9:00 to about 10:30 in the morning on tuesday was really a crucial period and talking to about 50 republican members yesterday, my reporting tells me that it was more of the

constituent calls, the anger from grassroots groups and especially from their own voters that pushed members to ask the leadership to pull back and the intense media coverage of this also played a factor. >> you're basically saying it was the "morning joe" effect at 9:01, we got off the air. >> that's right. >> willie and i got our massages and went up to off-track betting. while that was happening, we were finishing off the pack of cigarettes that we bought from kid. >> so "morning joe" i understand, right? my reporting tells me that the house leaders were in touch from 9:00 on and they say this thing doesn't maybe have the votes. the amendment doesn't have the votes to pass and maybe we don't even bring it up. we are going to perhaps bring the conference together which they did at 11:50 in the morning. thereside-elect did tweet shortly after 10:00 am and some members say his voice was an important one, maybe it tilted this amendment towards failure but it was moving in that

direction thanks to the constituent calls. >> willie, while we were at the holiday inn, the wheels were coming. >> smoking the newports. we don't watch tv when we are there. >> i didn't know! how do we know? >> is that filtered cigarettes? >> the kids on the street -- black market. >> individual cigarettes. >> dabbing and selling cigarettes is what the kids are doing these days? >> how are we going to afford those virtual reality goggles? >> i'm just going to keep it here. >> what, willie? >> we are right here. 11:50 a.m. meeting run by kevin mccarthy was an ultimatum saying you're going to strip this out or face a floor vote on it. what did we learn in the last 24 hours about the relationship between this new congress and its leadership?

>> that meeting, that imagine meeting you essentially had the leadership stand up there and say did you run on repealing obamacare or the tax code or run on gutting this thissics office giving you trouble the last years that you've been here? and the room kind of went quiet and that led to them ultimately changing this. i think one of the things we learned about -- a little bit was the relationship between donald trump, paul ryan and house caucus. one thing that was being discussed as donald trump leading up and right after donaldrump's tweets on this was whether or not there was interaction between the house leaders and the incoming white house about how to put pressure on the caucus. paul ryan team and republican leaders on the hill were very careful to note afterward that paul ryan and donald trump did speak on the phone yesterday but that it wasn't until after this ethics change was made. if you think about the

choreography of this. this was a delicate situation for ryan. needs to make sure that the view still is he is the one that has control over this caucus. not that donald trump can tweet and change minds and convince the people that he is trying to govern with to change things around. so i think this was a very difficult day, a difficult morning for paul ryan, questions about whether he didn't have control over his caucus, whether the president-elect was pushing him around, and i think he really had to kind of walk carefully afterward. i think that is something really to watch, is there this unruly gang of members in the house republican conference who is listening more to trump than they are to ryan. >> all right. thank you so much. we apologize. i'm not well but then again to you -- >> carrot top! i'm lost! >> we appreciate it. and, bob, i understand that last week, while willie was working

with you, you would come in every morning and talk about fish. not with an f "ph." you're a phish fan? >> i do. i saw two of the shows and i still managed to do "morning joe." >> you saw that patchouli every morning. >> willie was playing fluff head in between the segments. i'm telling you. willie has a past life. >> if i can correct you. >> it's a current life, bob. >> there is nothing past about willie's life. it is still happening. >> facade. >> wasn't like the turkish prison days in '78. >> y're like a grateful dead guy, joe, classic rock. maybe. >> bill walsh? >> widespread panic. >> elise is widespread panic. >> spread head. >> i just was like this.

♪ >> first time i heard that, oh, my god! when did my grandfather go into the recording studio? no. i want fast songs that a minute half. boom. >> what is that? >> ramone's fan? >> elvis costello. the clash. more so than '85, you know, like every band that i ever played in, you know, there would always be a guitarist, let's do "dark star" man! >> what? welcome to the working week. minute and a half. go! >> he likes fluff head, phish. >> still ahead on "morning joe," republican senator tom cotton who says u.s. sanctions against russia are too little, too late. plus senator rand paul who is calling for the immediate

replacement of obamacare. i guess he is not a black flag fan? >>. >> president obama is set to meet with democrats on capitol hill with joe manchin. will he be part of the meeting? the west virginia senator will join us next on "morning joe." unless we decide to tk about carrot top, phish or gallagher. our virtual reality goggles. liberty mutual stood with me when i was too busy with the kids to get a repair estimate. i just snapped a photo and got an estimate in 24 hours.

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♪ the most unbelievable part of that, we are talking about the thing i've recent seen. the unbelievable part of that was red sox fans, what do we remember? dave roberts. this is the difference between them getting wiped out and the greatest comeback in baseball history, right? >> yeah.

>> val vmptvano documentary the about ten of them and they should have never dupont to the fina -- gotten to the finals to play houston. it's one of the most extraordinary sports stories. funny thing when i was watching nc state win, knew that night. you left going that is the greatest upset in the history of college basketball and still stands all of these years later. >> people forget how good houston was. clyde drexler and hakeem olijoun. >> he was the sixth player on that nc state team. he just kept things moving, right? every time they were down. joe manchin would pick him up. i'm sorry, joe. you came on a bad day.

i'm tired. senator joe manchin of west virginia. a are you a basketball fan? >> oh, yeah. >> the one time i went to madison square garden to watch basketball, i saw west virginia win the big east probably, what? four years ago. >> yeah. are you a west virginia fan? >> i'm a big west virginia fan. that is my alma mater. >> you would need to be because it wouldn't be good if you liked virginia. >> no, no. i'm a west virginia through and through. blue and gold through and through. >> probably has a picture of sam huff in the middle of his kitchen. >> he is my big brother and grew up in my hometown. i went with sam everywhere. he delivered furniture and groceries for my grandfather and father. i grew up with sam huff and all of them. jerry west is a dear friend of mine. >> cabin. >> and nick saban. >> another dear friend of yours that you call brother is nick saban. we were all just laughing about

how nick took care of lane kiffin! yeah, i think i'm going to watch from up top. no, actually, no, you're not. >> joe, i don't think that is a surprise. i think everybody thought lane would move on. they might decide how he moved on might be a little bit confusing but other than that, it will work. don't bet against nick. >> oh, my god. of course, not. no. also, more importantly, as you know, don't cross nick and lane apparently did. are you going to be at th onal championship game? >> i wish i could but we are voting omonday night. we will be in tausussle on mond night. i talked to him on christmas and wished him the best. >> he is extraordinary. at some point somebody is going to write a book what he has done in college football which in short order soon to rival what john wooden did in college basketball. i have no idea how he has won as

many national championships as he has. so you know nick. and this is not a football question. this is something that has fascinated me the past year or two. i saw a "the new york times" article that says it's the attention to detail. but what -- people have written books about wooden's management structure and what made him so successful. what is the secret of nick saban doing what nobody else can do in one of the most highly competitive sports fields in the world? >> you have to know how he was raised. we were raised about four miles apart in a coal mining community. his father extremely motivated and extremely sghined and extremely sports oriented and gathered up all of the kids and started a pop warner team. wanted to build these young men and young boys into men. nick inherited that and saw it up close and personal. when he goes into a living he recruits the best of the best in america and able to do that

because when he goes in he can't promise you your child is going to make a million dars ollars o a first or second round choice. he will admit when he gives done with your child he'll give you back a man that you'll be proud of and that is hard to turn down. >> he talked about management and not just from sports but he is a great example of how leadership, one person can make a huge difference. i went to the university of alabama. they had the greatest facilities and always did and had the greatest reputation ever and fallen on hard times. nick saban came in and a little unknown fact alex told me. he was hired ten years ago today. you knew the second he was hired that he was going to wipe out all of the cronies would be shoved aside and only thing that mattered is performance. are you going to win or lose on. are you going to give me your best or not your best? it's remarkable whether you're

talking about a football team, whether you're talking about a corporation, whether you're talking about a church, whether you're talking about, you know, a country. it is amazing what one strong leader can do. >> it's all leadership, joe. truly all leadship. i don't think anyone has ever doubted the minute that brother saban or nick saban, i know him as brother, walks into a room. he is the leader and he is going to be in charge. he has a way of doing it and expects you to do the best you possibly can. he'll work with you and when he find out you can't do it that is when it's time to part ways. >> i guess that is what happened to lane. i love lane. i was thrilled when they hired him. he has been extraordinary and what an extraordinary partnership they have had and good luck with him down at fau. with d't we do a little bit of business here. a lot of talk about the president and congressional leaders over on the affordable care act, obamacare. are you going to attend that meeting? >> no, i'm not.

>> why not? >> i can't. i can't do it in good conscience. they want this place to work when the people voted. can up imagine in here? with all of threspect of all of these people involved but we had the outgoing president coming up here to talk to only democrats. only democrats. the incoming vice president coming up to talk only to republicans. joe, that's not what makes this place work and that is really what is wrong with the place. i think it's absolute wrong. we have affordable health care, obamacare, whatever you want to call it, 172,000 west virginiaianss have health for the first time. it's not perfect. we have a lot of repairing to do but with to say you're throwing the baby out with the bath water and repeal the whole thing. and incoming vice president who had medicaid suspension in indiana and want to repeal the whole thing. i'm looking to replace and doing everything we can to make it better but put something on the table. i can't believe the republicans will go down this path and throw

it out and say trust us, in two or three years, we will fix it. i've been here six years, joe. we haven't fixed very many things. anyone who has trust and belief we will fix it are living in fantasy land. >> senator manchin, it's willie geist. >> happy new year to all of y'all. >> happy new year to you. how dot voters in your state, west virginia, many of whom voted for donald trumpship donald trump e feel about obamacare? i assume some of the coal miners who live and worth, are covered by some aspects of obamacare. what is their feeling? do they want to see it repealed? >> willie, donald trump won west virginia by 43%. unbelievable. okay? a lot of the people didn't know and really still don't know how they got health care called affordable care act or obamacare, but i'll assure you one thing, they will know who did it and got rid of it. >> exactly. >> they will know that. they might not know how they got

it but know how they got rid of it. >> it's not complicated, is it? >> not too complicated back home. >> are you trying to communicate to them you may not want to see this thing repealed as much as you like donald trump and the things he said on the campaign trail about getting rid of it, you may want to keep it around? >> willie, the thing i tell all of them is you had preexisting condition. your wife had breast cancer. you had a heart condition. you couldn't buy insurance before. the old system we had you were unillness away from bankruptcy. one illness away from bankruptcy. you had caps on i'm sorry, you've used all of your money up because you're too sick and you have to die. that is not who we are at americans. i wasn't there in 2009. i didn't vote for this and i would like to see a lot of a lot of changes and i think it has to be market driven and more products out there to offer. you can't force somebody to buy a product they don't want and fine them if they don't buy it and it hasn't worked.

to sit down and say let's be americans, to make sure that the most vulnerable americans have some sort of health care and we can afford to offer it. with that said shouldn't be a person with a small business paying higher deductibles and premiums because they are subsidizing somebody else. they voted over 50 times, throw it out, throw it out. you got a chance to throw it out. you probably will get the votes to throw it out but you won't get my vote. i am not voting to repeal unless i see something that i think will improve it or make it better. >> all right. senator joe manchin, thank you so much. come back really soon. we love talking to you. >> go bama, baby. >> go bama, baby. thank you so much. coming up next, senator tom cotton he is breaking with donald trump when it comes to russia. we will talk to the arkansas republican about that and a man who says vladimir putin needs to be put in his place.

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we published the podesta e-mails which shows podesta respond to go a phishing e-mail. gave out that his password was

the word password. his own stuff said this e-mail that you've received, this is totally legitimate. this is something a 14-year-old kid could have hacked based on that. >> he's not exactly a passion of truth and integrity. and so, therefore, i wouldn't, you know, ascribe to any of these individuals who are making comments that it is providing the whole unvar nicnished truth. what was collected and what was disclosed and purpose and intent of that effort was. >> the cia director john brennan. before that, wikileaks founder julian assange yesterday. donald trump tweeted the

following. trump added also said russians did not give him the info. the cia director responded to. joining ous capitol hill is republican senator tom cotton of arkansas. last night trump tweet baggage the intelligence community putting that in quotes. he has been very critical of our intelligence service. how do you feel donald trump has handled this allegation of russian hacking? >> well, i think it's reasonable for us to wait to see what comes out in the report in the next coupled. president obama ordered that report last month. the intelligence agencies have been working diligently to complete it and report to donald trump and president obama and the committees on capitol hill and we will examine their conclusions and i don't see much need to jump to conclusion about that until we see what their conclusions are and the intelligence committee the source of methods they gathered

to support that. >> do you think it's dangerous for donald trump to attack the intelligence community before he knows what they are going to say. >> i have a lot more faith in our intelligence officers serving around the world, very smart and experienced analysts that we have here in the nation's capital than i do in people like julian assange, i can tell you that much. look. i don't dispute the intelligence community's assessment from october 7th that russia or russian associates were behind the attack on the dnc. i simply think that that is to be expected from russia. that is what they do and one thing they felt emboldened to do it the last eight years because barack obama has not been weak on russia but stopping me and other members of congrs to draw a firmer line on russia. we need to draw a firmer line on russia and impose costs when they do things like hack into the dcn. >> senator, does it concern you at all that the president-elect of the united states, to be

president in 17 days, 16 days, continually and has continuously demeaned the intelligence gathering unless the people who do this dangerous work around the world, does it concern you at all? >> well, i think intelligence officers are like military personnel. they just don't work in public. they don't wear uniforms when they go through airports and therefore, they don't get as much of the credit and respect and honor that they deserve. i would encourage the president-elect to listen with an open mind and probing mind. it's right to probe our civilians leaders as leaders of our government. also real questions why so many leaks the last seven or eight weeks from the administration about the motivations or intentions of vladimir putin or other foreign leader and not something that came outline in the october 7th published official assessment. that is something our intelligence agencies and the administration ought not be doing is leaking intelligence

for political or purposes or putting it in the media without any kind of official base. >> so, senator, elise jordan earlier this morning talked about concern in the intel community about some of the evidence, but also concern that if this was such a devastating hack, then why, many are asking, didn't this administration do more earlier? i actually read a politico article saying that you had pressed them i guess in the spring to take a far more aggressive stand against russia on this issue. can you tell us about that? >> i would say, first, the hack of the dnc is something russia ought not to have done and should pay a price for it. if you want to talk about what they have committed the u.s. interests the last decade that is pretty far down the list. it's true i and many others on chill have tried to push the administration and take a firmer

line. a couple of examples of that. in the intelligence bill last year, i promoted a measure that would have created interagency working group at the highest level to counteract russian covert and provenlpaganda. russian diplomats are not allowed to travel a certain distance outside of their embassy or consulate. i proposed measures in the intelligence bill to force the administration to force that. i got a call a couple of weeks ago after the election, after the announcement of the hacking telling me to pull that bill if it wasn't included in the legislation. one small example of what i mean president obama hasn't just been weak on russia but actively blocked measures to take a firmer line on russia. >> why? >> i think from the very beginning he thought that he was going to be able to reset

relationships with russia and he was going to be able t use russia to achieve other goals like reaching a nuclear deal in iran or maybe some kind of peace settlement in syria. i think we have seen the number of times that russia has played lucy to charlie brown, the president trying to kick the football is not the united states and how vladimir putin views our relationship and the president now regrets that. i bet he regrets making fun of mitt romney seining russia wra our number one political adversary or telling the president of russia he needed more flexibility to wait until after the election. i wish he would have come to this recognition several years ago. >> how many people from kansas gottin' help from the affordable and what is your concern if republicans change it they lose their coverage? >> we don't want anyone to lose their coverage. we want to fix the problems that obamacare made worse from the preexisting system. arkansas has something of a unique system. our state government didn't just

expand medicaid like most states and used that money to help people buy private insurance and something we look at when we replace obamacare whether a tax deduction or tax credit we provide every american with the ability to go out and find affordable health insurance that fits their needs not the needs dictated by politicians in washington. >> all right. tom cotton, thank you for being with us. by the way, you probably were late getting to work. you forgot to shave this morning. >> i grew my winter beard and i've got the one force that mostly causes then to shave their beard, their wives at home. it's working the opposite direction. my wife likes my beard so i'll keep it for a while. >> really? she must be a phish fan as well. thank you so much, senator. great talking to you. coming up next on "morning joe." >> we have got to decide who is running this and we have to decide quickly. >> if it's terrorism, it's yours. >> gentlemen, the moment we label this terrorism, everything changes. it's not about boston.

it's wolf blitzer, it's stock markets, it's politicians and knee-nerc reaction and anti-muslim backlash. no take-back. i've been through this before. >> we call what we already know what it is and accelerated to t chica and new york what happens en sc? >> the director of the new movie peter berg "patriots day" joins us next on "morning joe."

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meanwhile you guys aren't any closer to identifying the two we are really looking for. we need to release those pictures. >> if we release those we will have zero control. >> gentlemen, if i may, right now boston is working against us. normally you have a murder and nobody rats. we don't have that problem, because in this city, when it comes to terrorism, everybody wants to talk and you have everybody talking but they are talking about the wrong people.

release the photos and you have to start let boston working for us, i'm telling you. >> i understand boston but i can't snap my fingers. this decision goes all the way up to the attorney general. this is my city, rick! release -- >> john goodman. "patriots day" is about the boston bombing and the aftermath. this is an incident that is fresh still in a lot of peoples' minds coming up on four years this year, and do you feel pressure to get this right and for a lot of things, this movie could become part of the historical story that day. >> we were blessed to be able to spend about three months in boston with the former police commissioner, and the fbi guys and the firefighters and the ps on the ground, and hearing

their stories, and really being incredibly inspired by how the community came together, and refused to take a knee to these cowards, and really at the end of the day demonstrated how love wins out when these horrific things take place and we were able to get it right and were inspired by the men and women of boston. >> talk about the sensitivity you show, you, the filmmaker, and mark wahlberg, native, showed toward so many families that were affected. >> as you guys nobody better than anybody, this is the new reality that we live in, and we wake up and we are no longer shocked to hear about the stories of mass violence, and i think as filmmakers, we were interested in looking in how we

make sense of the horrors, and how communities react, and if it's possible to pick up and move on, if you had something as horrific as your 8-year-old son killed in front of you while you were on a beautiful spring day watching a marathon, and these are heavy and complicated questions, and we felt a real responsible the to talk to these folks as much as they wanted to talk to us, to hear their stories and see how they were going through the process of grieving and to give them our word that, you know, you can't always define what that line of taste is, b there's a line and you kind of know when you crossed it, and we gave them, you know, our word that we would work hard never to cross that, and i feel like we did that. >> every american community that has been hit, 9/11 and onwords response to a similar way, but every city is different, and talk about boston strong and the

boston red sox -- >> i am a new yorker, and wahlberg and i had to deal with this, and i was fortunate to meet mr. kraft and david ortiz and i can say as much as i love my new york teams i love the boston community, and i love the boston teams, and there's something very tribal and unique about that community, and you know it as well as anybody, and having worked there for so long, it's a remarkable place. i think, you know, as the officer who was the police officer who fought back in watertown, he said, you know, look, we are really loving kind people here in boston, and we will help you and protect you and look after you, but if you mess with us, we will destroy you. and, you know, i -- >> that's boston. >> that is boston. boston strong. >> i have no problem with that. >> is general madison boston by

the way? >> that's what he says, right, i'm your best friend or worst enemy, and i think that's true whether it's police commissioner ed davis or the head of the fbi, and these are good guys and fun guys and sweet guys, but when these brothers blew up their city, we saw a completely different side of law enforcement, and i also think that we saw the very best side of law enforcement, and we focud souch on the negative today, and it was a privilege to be able to focus on the positive and see how well the men and women in the boston police department responded to that event and it was encouraging and inspiring to me to be able to tell that story. >> you see all of that and boston come through mark wahlberg's character. they messed with the wrong city, he says. it's coming out in select cities

and then out everywhere on january 13th. >> thanks, peter. still ahead, the about-face for house republicans ditching their plans to gut an ethic's watchdog, and we'll take you inside how that happened. "morning joe" will be right back. for a 100% fresh mouth. just ask listerine® users. the very people we studied in the study of bold. people who are statistically more likely to stand up to a bully. do a yoga handstand. and be in a magician's act. listerine® kills 99% of bad breath germs so you can feel 100% in life. bring out the bold™. go to boldpercent.com to join the bold percent for the chance to win a trip of a lifetime.

it's just a few hours before this congress begins, and -- this seems like a great

opportunity for the incoming president to show his independence and show he wants to drain the swamp and immediately start hammering them on this. this is ridiculous. >> there's not zero argument for this, and there's a question about due process, but by the time they reconvene, they will have come to their senses, because the optics are it's absurd. >> they won't do it tomorrow. >> you have to hold it higher on the forward. up here. >> there you go. >> is that what carson did right there? yeah, so -- >> buy soybeans today is all i am saying. >> yesterday, mark halperin saying by the time we reconvene this morning the house republicans, who in the closed door meeting the day before tried to completely gut the

ethics panel. mark halperin, how do you do that thing you do? >> iant almost zero credit for this because it seemed to be the most obvious thing in the world it's not sustainable, before donald trump tweeted, and it was unsustainable off the headlines. >> what was interesting, though, when we had -- yesterday we had the majority leader here and he said that he was going to vote for it, and you could see everything falling in line that actually, you know, not only kevin mccarthy, and everybody was going to follow in line and follow-up. as bob costa reported, the phone calls started coming. >> the guys in the closed door session on monday night they cut through the screen of the backdoor to break into the house and got caught on the porch and fled. >> what a stupid way. you are like, republican, going, okay, this is the most historic lead we have had electrically

since 1928, what shall we do? the first thing we should do, we are going to gut all the ethics rules. >> they were so intent on showing they were going to turn the tables in the temple on the first day, and they picked the wrong issue to do it on, and the media coverage was intense, and constituent calls and e-mails and everything following, and then donald trump tweeting about it was the final nail in the coffin when paul ryan, and kevin mccarthy got together with the guys and said, straighten it out. >> but they received thousands of calls from constituents, which is a very encouraging sign that can you still tip these people off with a phone call. >> what inspired those phone calls were people on their o calling the congressional switchboard or was it interest groups or followers of donald trump responding to his tweet? we don't know. >> all interesting questions,

but i don't care. all i care is they picked up the phone. >> the reason i care is for the future, right? what inspired that? >> i can tell you. when the phone calls start ringing in your office and you are in congress, and you are over on the house floor and you are getting 1,000 phone calls and they keep flooding in, and -- >> i get that, but -- >> you get a call in the cloakroom and people say there's a real problem with this, and you try to tpeufigure out if th are robocalls, or it constit constituents being concerned? >> i don't know how anybody thought this would be a good idea after seeing 2016 play out, and in the election about anger, and after all the outrage at hillary clinton for being above the rules in so many instances, and this is how they choose to introduce their new tenure to

the american people. >> it's unbelievable. good morning, where is mika, everybody? >> south of france. exactly. along with willie geist -- willie's back. >> yeah, i was here last week, and finally we are back together. >> like two ships that pass in the night. >> we have mark halperin, and mike barnicle. >> legendary. >> keep going. >> we have mike barnicle! ? >> and elise is here. and nick confessore, our christmas special, and he was why i was crosby on the morning special when we broke news there was going to be a nuclear arms race for the 21st century. >> a fun morning in our pajamas. >> in washington we have senior

writer, jake, maybe you can first of all smile. let's see you smile. there you go. and then talk to us about what unfolded yesterday on capitol hill as the republicans tried to gut the ethics committee and promptly get slapped down by constituents? >> in the office of congressionalette kwreubgz, and there's a lot of complaints about it and i get it and members don't like increased scrutiny or having to answer to anonymous tips, which is what it allows, and they learned this amendment was coming up from twitter, so house republicans didn't have the decency to call these people and tell these dozen oro staffers that they were about to lose their jobs. a few things -- the leadership, paul ryan and kevin mccarthy's aides say they were vaguely aware of the amendment, which is scary, so this means they didn't want to stop it which means they

had no idea of the political implications or couldn't stop it, which means they are weaker than ever, or didn't know how to stop it, and there's a whole host of things that we could deduce from this, which is a huge embarrassment. the gop is willing to strong arm the majority members. >> it's something that paul ryan is going at certificate times, he's going to have to do what john boehner never would do, which is stand in front of the conference and say i am your leader and you voted for me to be your leader, and you dragged me back into a job that i did not want, and now you are either going to follow me on this important issue, or you can hire somebody else. there are points when people

have to do that. from my critiques of newt gingrich as a leader, there were two or three times he pulled that card out, and this is important for the conference, do it or elect another leader. >> paul ryan did that on day one as did kevin mccarthy, and they gave them an ultimatum, and said pull it out or face a floor vote on it, and you will have to come t and they got rid of it right on the spot. you have to have that. >> which is what i think john boehner, for all of the positives, that's one thing john boehner was ever willing to do, find me or find somebody else, and that's the way you lead. >> kasie hunt was chasing members all through the halls. here's one exchange with the congressman from texas. >> reporter: why is this the most important thing for congress to be focused on right

now? >> it isn't. it's not. >> that's the answer there, and it was shortly afterwards revers reversed. >> i think it's a black eye for ryan. it's like a toast that he taught some of the members of the conference a lesson about communication and ryan has an advantage boehner did not have, he has a republican president, or will have a republican president, and he may get victories that can hold the party together on things like tax reform and other issues they care about. boehner did not have that option. >> so paul ryan, mike barnicle, needs to continue down this path and learn from some of the great leaders as far as effectiveness goes. nancy pelosi, i put her at the top of the list, she knew how to lead the democratic caucus and

tip o'neal knew how to lead the democratic caucus, and after the beirut attack in 1983, he called the democrats to go, and richard reeves in his great biography of reagan said they called them together and they were giving talking points on how to attack the policy, and tipp o'neal said, today we are not democrats, but we are americans, and today if anybody in the room criticizes your commander-in-chief, before i say you can, youill b dealing with me. >> weapons without ammunition in them guarding the gate, and the democrats were pacified, calmed down by tipp who did exactly that. >> that's leadership. >> i cannot imagine what happened monday in washington happening to the tipp o'neal or

nancy paw l nancy pelosi or newt gingrich, and the key thing is the word ethics. you have done so well covering the money in the flow of politics and what do you think they did not hear when they learned the word ethics on monday? >> they did a version of the usual politics in congress and their constituents and congress is unpopular, but congress persons are popular, so they tend to be immune from the unpopularity of the institution, what happened here is that they all misjudged and thought it was about them personally and it became about the institution which is one of the most unpopular in the country, and people hate congress, and they were coming out of an election where people feel so disconnected from and anger at this institution that it was crazy. the guy you saw there saying it's not important, and he was

sued for sexual harassment, right? >> he was? >> yes. and people who don't want this ethics office are the people who get dinged by it and the 70 members in the conference that said it was a bad idea and voted against it are probably the good guys here. >> the timing, again, was just unbelievable, but, you know, let's hope this is a sign for thgs to come. it's a wake-up call. >> as elise said, of all the times to do it, you do that following the 2016 campaign? that was all about an anti-washington -- >> drain the swamp. >> one other interesting element of this -- >> and fill it up with golden sacks and -- >> yeah, and the donald trump tweet said, this is crazy, don't do this, and donald trump is popular to some of the congress are in some of their own districts and more popular than

all of them, and for now he has more power and they have to listen to what he does and says, and those trump tweets were the last mess toeupblg them that said if donald trump is telling us not to do this, we need to back away. >> which actually shows you what has been aeuiling the republica party since 2006, and no major leader telling them what to do, and there was chaos, and they were all independent agents, and the same thing happened with the huge 2014 crowd, all independent agents, and paul ryan and donald trump can help each other here if paul ryan needs help with something like this, he can ask trump. you talk about the power of a tweet, and he can ask trump, i need your help on this and if you want me to help move bill "a," i need you to put pressure on my republican members because you are more popular in their district in kansas than they are, and you are exactly righ

and thas how these two people who really are not comfortable with each other can help each other. >> a big majority of the house members have never had a republican president to work with, and they are learning with a republican president who is not afraid to attack the republican party, and the big issues, tax and infrastructure and the the affordable care act, they matter more than these little flaps, but yesterday was a warning to these republican members, cross donald trump at your peril. and then coming up, steve kornacki, and joe biden tkwhado what joe biden does best, plus, bill karins looking at weather? >> it's all about california, and let's talk california first because we have picked up an incredible amount of snow already, two to three feet in the mountains and it has not stopped and it will keep raining

and snowing. this is another two to four feet forecasted on top of the two to four feet already, and so we could show up with some spots with six to eight feet, and then we have another storm this weekend and next week, and then so the cold is in place over the middle of the country today, and that's in chicago and st. louis and that's going to move across the country in the areas of the northeast come thursday. there's going to be enough cold air when a southern storm skirts down here friday night, and we could deal with a little snow, especially areas, northern georgia, and south carolina, and north carolina, and it really pinpoints this, and this model isurther south than that and includes some of the snowy weather in the areas of the uth carolina. we will see how that materialized in the days ahead, but if you have plans in the southeast, even columbia south carolina this weekend, pay attention to that forecast. leaving you with a shot of new

york city. not a lot of snow in new york city anytime soon, but the warm weather comes to an end today so enjoy it while it lasts. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hey, need fast heartburn relief? try cool mint zantac. it releases a cooling sensation in your mouth and throat. zantac works in as little as 30 minutes.

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been. >> completing one of his final duties in office, swearing in newly elected and re-elected senators yesterday which has become something of a sport to watch him perform that duty every couple of years, and meanwhile house speaker paul ryan spent time taking pictures with members of the house. here's what happened when kansas congressman roger marshall posed with his family, and watch what happened in the middle. >> are you all right? you want to put your hand down? are you sneezing? >> that was marshall's teenage son, dabbing. later ryan tweeted, countless cute kids, don't get what dabbing is, though. and marshall tweeted about his son saying just so you know,

he's grounded. >> i don't get it. >> it's a little celebration. paul ryan was not having it. >> they try to smuggle the dabbing through customs. coming up, democratic congressman seth mole ton is no longer a freshman. he was sworn in for a second term yesterday and he will join the covnversation coming up nex.

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our challenges too entrenched for mere tweeting, and making america great again requires more than 140 characters per issue. with all due respect, america cannot afford a twitter presidency. many americans are afraid, mr. president-elect, that instead of rolling up your sleeves and forging serious policies, for you, twitter suffices. >> president-elect trump took to social media yesterday to celebrate another victory in his

push to create jobs in the united states, he said ford announced yesterday it will scrap plans to build a plant in mexico and invest $700 million to create new jobs. speaking with msnbc yesterday, ceo mark fields said trump's economic policies did play a role in his company's decision. >> clearly we made this decision in the best interest of the company but we look at a lot of factors and one of the factors we looked at was the more positive u.s. manufacturing environment under president trump and looking at the pro growth policies he has been talking about and it's a vote of confidence that he can deliver on that. >> trump celebrated on instag m instagram, and he said instead of driving jobs and wealth away america will be the magnet for

innovation. and a congresswoman repeated the sentiment. but the white house is throwing a little cold water on the perception that ford made its move because of trump's policy ideas. >> i noted over the last five years or so that ford actually has increased the number of workers at that company by about 28,000, and so this is only the latest step in a long running significant and positive trend for the u.s. economy that those jobs are being protected. >> ford's decision came hours after trump called out general motors on twitter threatening stiff tariffs, and he wrote general motor is sending mexican-made models of chevy

cruzes are made in u.s. msnbc's anchor and political correspondent, steve kornacki joins the conversation. and this is one of the first times we have heard a cia say it's because of donald trump we are doing this, at least in part. >> part of the explanation there, and he's talking about dona trump's policies, or at least perspectively what his policies are going to be, and what is interesting to me about this, there's an aspect of politics here, and i think that donald trump may be -- you know, i think back to the stimulus, and part of the stimulus was the obama administration cut taxes and they couldn't figure out a year or two years later, everybody said they didn't cut our taxes and then they stuck it

in the payroll tax and you don't know it came from obama or a stimulus, and they didn't send a check in the mail, and it's important and underrated, you need to tell people what you are doing. >> mika and i, and i said it on the air before and i have seen the same exact thing when we are watching this, and we said the president needs to do this on -- at the time it was the bp spill, and she said and others in the obama administration would tell us he doesn't do theater, and they were very proud of that fact and i remind them, fdr did theater, with the fireside chats, and jfk did theater, and on television, reagan did theater. it's one of the reasons -- i mean, ronald reagan, and it's not just for polls, and the soviet union, we heard that when they had the air traffic controllers strike that the soviets actually looked at

reagan, and whether they did and said this guy is going to be tough, and whether they did or not at the end of the day, that was great theater. people in michigan are going to be talking about this for the next couple of years. >> it's an aspect of leadership i didn't come to appreciate, and there was an obamacare debate right now and the democrats can point to, look, if the republicans leave the pre-existing condition part in but do away with the mandate the policy doesn't work, and it strikes me what the democrats have been relying on to sell obamacare, they have been relying on they drew up a complicated policy that if you start to look at it piece by piece it starts to make sense, and i am not sure that ever made sense to the american people, and you need something that is simple and universal and it was never understandable. >> there's your basic problem. you just spelled it out, the biggest problem with the

democrats, they never figured out speaking to the lunchroom and to the public, and they never figured it out. >> and congressman moulton is joining us, and something that was noted about reagan in real time is that he could run circles around people who were supposedly far smarter than he was because he could boil down the essential truths of all his policies. would you agree with us around the table that the democratic party has not been as good doing that over the past eight years? >> absolutely. i mean, we have really struggled to communicate all the great things we have done for the american people for working families, and you are absolutely right. donald trump is good at theater. he's a reality tv star. at some point the american people are going to realize that the show is over and the gig is up, and his economic policies are terrible for the country, and they are going to dramatically increase our

deficit and his foreign policy pwhrublunders are putting our t in harm's way overseas, and is he communicating effectively? absolutely. that's how he won the election. >> i didn't agree with most of his economic policies but if i am a democrat and running in 2016, i promise you, nobody is going to come close to me because i am going to say when we got in, we had double digit unemployment. it's down below 5% now. we cut the deficit in half. we saved the midwest. we did this. we did that. we killed bin laden. i can come up with ten bullet points, and it can be in every debate, boom, boom, boom, and they never did it. it was unbelievable. >> never communicated it

affectively, and democrats have a opportunity to talk about not just what we accomplished in the obama years for the economy and for our troops, but looking forward how we can embrace the new economy. trump's rhetoric is all about looking to the past and putting people back in the coal mines, and putting back jobs that didn't go to mexico but to robots, and what we need to say to democrats, here's a stronger way forward and a way all americans can embrace the economy and future, and the way we can be a leader ie age of robots and oddmation. that's what we odd to do as democrats. here's a tremendous opportunity for us, but did we squander it in the last election? we didn't communicate it at all. >> and i didn't want to pile on hillary clinton going to the inauguration, and that's putting country first, but give us some of the numbers, unemployment cut

in half, and wages up. the deficit slashed in half. you could go through -- how could the democrats not have hammered those points home? >> it gets to the issue of the theater, of the stage craft s s versus trying to sell policy and what is in the policy, and i think when people are electing leaders, a member of the president or congress, people are not reading through the policies, not because they can't understand it, and not because they are stupid, and people live busy lives. so what is the job of politics. the job of politics is you are wanting people to represent you. they understand your basic lot in life, and they understand basically what you want out of the part of the country. you deal with the details, and i don't have time to deal with the details, and that's what you are trusting your leader to do and that's the importance of stage craft and theater, and you say i get you and understand you, and trump communicated in michigan i

get you and understand you and i don't think hillary clinton did. >> also, congressman barack obama, i remember saying when it happened that the paris attacks might well be the defining moment of at least donald trump's candidacy, because you had a president who was seen as not understanding how this shook a lot of americans to the core, and actually assuring everybody that more people died in bathroom accidents than terrorism. perhaps that is that the case. but that is not -- >> that's not the message, no. >> that's not what they want to hear when san bernardino gets shot up. >> a good example of somebody that is good at really getting to what matters in peoples' lives is vice president biden, and he's somebody that just tells it like it is. and that's people's complaint about him, he's too honest. that's what the amecan people want. they wan to understand all the policies in d.c., the proposals

and bills and legislation, how does it affect their lives? we need people to communicate that. i think it's also time for a new generation of leaders in the democratic party to step up and say we can connect with the american people and connect with the future. >> amen. i got nothing against people in their mid to late 70s, but it would be good to have somebody below 65 on the horizon. >> you are looking at one right there. >> congressman seth moulton, thank you so much. and steve kornacki, stay with us. i will tell you what, i say that democrats have a problem communicating it, and republicans and conservatives have always had a problem communicating the importance of lower deficits, and driving down the debt, and just can't get the american people to focus on that, and i'm afraid we are going to have higher deficits and debts coming up and over the next four years, and senator

rand paul is going to be with us next. i will talk to him about that. i also will talk to him about his call for the total repeal of obamacare and the immediate replacement of the law. the senator will be with us next on "morning joe." so beautiful. what shall we call you? tom! name it tom! studies show that toms have the highest average earning potential over their professional lifetime. see? uh, it's a girl. congratulations! two of my girls are toms. i work for ally, finances are my thing.

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let's go to capitol hill and talk to a member of the foreign relations committee. senator, thank you for being here. we have lot to talk to you about. i want to start with one of my biggest concerns about the new republican congress and the incoming president of the united states, and that is debt. it doubled under george w. bush to $11 trillion, and doubled under barack obama to $20 twi20 trillion, and the policies i am hearing about sounds like it will double again. what do we do to make sure republicans don't repeat what

they did under george bush? >> everybody is hot and heavy to vote on the budget because they want to repeal obamacare but the budget will add $8.8 trillion to the debt over the next ten years, and i will not be part of that. >> are there just not enough people on the hill to care anymore? do they not know interest rates are going up? do they not know that this bad situation is going to get exponentially worse in the next five years? >> what i told them is, look, i am opposed to obamacare and i understand the need and desire and i am impornt repealing it but i won vote for a terrible budget just for obamacare. i think the debt is a more important problem than obamacare, as bad as obamacare is, a $2$20 trillion debt, and w something that will add to that

is unexcusable. >> sick. >> and then a question about repealing and replacing obamacare. there are a lot of people in your state who are covered by obamacare, and a lot of people in your state of kentucky that benefit from obamacare. what do you say to them if obamacare is repealed? what happens to them? >> the majority of the people covered through the kentucky were through the expansion of medicaid and not through the subsidized market, but what i will say is there are big problems of obamacare and one of the biggest problems is adverse selection which means we have a lot of people sick buying insurance and not enough healthy people, and my concern with repeal is they are going to repeal the individual mandate and that top heaviness with sick people buying insurance at the last minute and healthy people not will get worse, and like north carolina blue cross lost $400 million in 2016, and my concern is that spirals out of

control if we keep the feel-good parts of the obamacare and get rid of the individual mandate so i am concerned about how this thing unravelled. i do think there are things we should consider, though. the biggest problem in the old system as a physician that i saw is that we linked insurance to employment, and so what happens is when you link it to employment, if i am a self-employed person of one in my business, and i have no leverage and my coverage goes through the roof if i get sick, and we need to get it de-linked from employment, and if i am a business of one you need to let me pull together easily with large groups so i am a pool of thousands if not millions so i don't get the problem of jack up my rates when i get sick. >> is that on the table for replacement? i assume you think barack obama should be repealed, and is that on the table for replacement? >> i think it's imperative that

republicans do a replacement simultaneous to repeal. if they don't, obamacare continues to unravel and there are many health care analysts and experts who are predicting bankruptcy for insurance companies and a massive insurance company bailout within the first six months of repeal. it's already -- the insurance companies are already covering because of adverse selection, and we need to think through how we do this and it's a huge mistake for republicans if they do not vote for replacement on the same day as we vote for repeal. >> and mark halperin? >> let me ask you a philosophical question to frame the debate, and do you agree every american should have health care? >> it's a trick question. as a physician i believe i am my brother's keeper, and my oath

says i will take care of everybody and physicians said we have 100 percent access and should and we don't turn people away from the hospitals, but what we need is an economic model where insurance is affordable. the one thing obamacare did and most people don't realize is it made it illegal to sell inexpensive insurance so part of the replacement you have to legalize the sale of all forms of insurance including inexpensive insurance. president obama said i know better, and so i am not going to let you buy what you want because i will take care of you, i am the all powerful all seeing and knowing, but what you want is to allow the marketplace to work and allow inexpensive insurance to be sold and that's part of the answer. >> elise? >> my favorite senator in washington. so how confident are you that republicans are actually going to be able to come together and have a viable replacement for obamacare when they repeal it? >> i think the interesting thing is that many of the ideas have

been talked about for years, and they have been put into legislation, and i hear these reports saying republicans can't agree with the replacement and there are four or five things i listed in my opt ed the other day and one was we need to legalize sale across state lines and make it easier for individuals to band together with other individuals to be part of a large pool, and expand the medical deductible savings accounts, and obamacare went the opposite way. in the ideal world everybody would buy insurance for their baby, and if their baby didn't get sick, they would increase the deductible and put the difference into a savings account so the savers would be rewarded with high deductible policies and half the public had the 10,0$10,000 deductible by t time they were 18, and we get to a true marketplace where most

people interacted with their physician and prices went up and down and you would have real competition, like a real marketplace. all of that is possible if people understand the health care problem is an economic one and not a wonky health care problem unique to health care but basic economics. >> senator rand paul on a foggy capitol hill morning, and thank you for being with us. and steve koackithis is the fascinating fight. rand paul take the side of donald trump, and if you are going to replace it, if you are going to repeal it you have to replace it at the same time, and a lot of people are in a hurry and want to wipe it out and so many problems not only politically but as the senator said, economically and medically. >> you have 6 1/2 years of republicans repeating repeal and replace and now they have to chance to repeal, and that congressman illustrated to get consensus on the republicans on exactly what the replacement should be, it's a complicated question. >> coming up, more than two

decades since a third-part candidate was able to share the debate stage, and a new federal lawsuit might change that, and we will talk to the plaintiffs coming up next on "morning joe." thank you for dining with us. hope to see you again soon. whoa, whoa, i got this. just gotta get the check. almost there. i can't reach it. if you have alligator arms, yoavoid picking up the check. what? it's what you do. i got this. thanks, dennis! if you want to save fiftn percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. growwwlph. it's what you do. oh that is good crispy duck.

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extraterrestrial doing this to us, i guess. somebody has to take responsible for this. just for the record, i don't have any spin doctors or speech writers, and it probably shows. i make those charts you see on television, but you don't have to wonder if it's me talking. what you see is what you get, and if you don't like it you have two other choices, right? >> that's is ross perot in 1992, the last time a third-party candidate was allowed in a presidential debate. a federal court in washington will soon hear a lawsuit that aims to change that. joining us now, peter abgerman and attorney alexandra shapiro. good morning to you both. >> good morning. >> as we look at ross perot there, he was puolling 8%, and

now it's 15% that is the threshold. the rule made is a reaction to ross perot. what do you want to change about the system? >> we want to reimagine the entire system so we can open up the process so people who are great americans and will not run as democrats and republicans have a pathway into the election is that competitive, and people if they don't believe they can compete will undertake a campaign, and the policy is the biggest choke hold in the presidential election system is the debates and access to them, and i would like to have her discuss what the lawsuit is about. >> let me ask you from this angle, though, because the argument for keeping the system the way it is is if you look at the democratic primaries, 20 million people voted in the

democratic primaries, and republican side, same thing, almost 20 million people and they chose donald trump, so there's a basis from the tens of millions voting, and they say this side and this side gets one on the stage. what is the basis to say this person deserves to be on the staeupbl? >> how do you stop from having 15 people on the debate stage? >> i think this last election shows that we can't have -- can't rely on the two parties to provide the american people with a choice. we had two candidates that were voted on by the numbers you are talking about, and we have 140 million people who voted in the election, and millions more who could register and are eligible to vote and the two people these parties served up spwaoeucombin

favorables at 120%. what are you asking the court to do? >> rule the existing system is illegal and the commission which runs the debates is a partisan organization that has systematically excluded independent and third-party candidates, and we believe if we win the lawsuit that we can replace the system wit another alternative. >> so illegal on what grounds? specifically what are you arguing? >> the commission takes advantage of a loophole in the federal campaign act that allows corporation to fund the debates and when the legal voters were running this in the 1980s, no corporation donated to the debates but now they are donating millions to the debates and campaign contributions like that are illegal. it's systematically excluding

third-party candidates and it should not take advantage of the loophole for corporate money. >> what prevents any of us from getting up there? >> if we win the lawsuit we can completely reimagine how we elect a president and infranchise the part of the country that refuses to elect that party. they will yield one winner that will be one-third in the debates in the fall -- >> how would that primary work? how would you select that person? >> well, in effect, what we would do is do something similar to what the two parties do, have a period of time where individual independents would be exposed to the american people, and then ultimately the american people could vote, and ultimately pick one, one candidate. and they will develop over time

the kdf name recognition that the two parties enjoy now one. and so if you create the ability for people to go through a competitive process, and to develop the name recognition they need to compete, what you are going to do is attract many great americans who refuse to run as democrats or republicans but would be delighted to run if they thought they could compete on a level playing field against republicans and democrats, and we only have two choices as you were saying, and right now the american people are not pleased with the democratic or republican parties as being the only sources of choice we have has president. >> all right, we have to leave it there. we appreciate you guys coming. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> good luck. that does it for us this morning. stephanie picks up the coverage right now. >> good morning. breaking now. a showdown on the hill. president obama arriving on