>> have a great afternoon. a busy one for us. this hour on "msnbc live," a clash at the capitol. outgoing president and incoming vice president's showdown on the hill. one looking to defend, one looking to dismantle obamacare. mike pence set to speak any minute. we'll carry it live. >> our message is very simple. we're 16 days away from the end of business as usual in washington, d.c. the first order of business is to repeal and replace obamacare. plus, the fight over russia's role. donald trump swiping at the intel community via twitter, including one tweet that appeared to defend wikileaks founder julian assange. the sentencing phase of dylann roof's phase begins with the convicted killer facing off with the families of his victims. what roof said in his opening statement. we'll get to that. first, we begin with today's clash at the capitol over obamacare. the president and the vice presiden

president-elect squaring off on the hill. governor mike pence is in a lunch with senate republicans. we're expecting him to come out of that meeting and see if he makes in his remarks. if he does, we'll cover it live. the vp-elect came to the hill today with a message for the gop -- obamacare is gone on day one. while president barack obama met with the democratic caucus in an effort to preserve his signature legislation. both parties trading fire after those meetings. >> donald trump said he will not cut social security, he will not cut medicare, he will not cut medicaid. >> obamacare is a story of broken promise after broken promise after broken, followed by failing program, higher premiums, higher deductibles. >> to cut health care wouldn't make america great again. it would make america sick again. >> we have a plan to replace it. we have plenty of ideas to replace it. >> they have no replacement plan because they just -- they can't -- they can't agree.

they don't have the votes for replacement plan. >> kasie hunt and hans nichols are both in the capitol building right for you. let me start with you, hans. pence is there at this hour. you've been covering his meetings at capitol hill. what do you know about what's happening there? what is the goal that the republicans have when it comes to obamacare? >> well, the goal is very clearly, and that is to harness a lot of the enthusiasm in here and channel that into actual policy. now, that's the goal. that's what he was talking about on the house side earlier today. he's in the meeting behind me, the luncheon. expect him to come out in just moments. there's a difference between harnessing and challenging political energy into actual policy. eight years ago president barack obama realized just how difficult that is. now, there is a great deal -- i don't want to say giddiness but i should say enthusiasm about single-party rule here. republicans controlling the house and the senate. now we get to see whether or not they get their message in line with the president they sometimes disagree with, a

congress that has shown its willingness and a vice president that has to be the interpreter between the two. ali? >> stay right there. kasie, it's the first cannon shot, if you will, in the democrats' battle to save the president's signature legislati legislation. we saw it, make america sick again #masa. did the president give his fellow democrats an action plan? do they have an action plan to try and preserve obamacare? >> reporter: essentially the action plan is to let republicans deal with the fallout from repealing the health care law and not do anything very much to help them replace it. essentially, the president came here and said, we're not going to rescue the republicans or you shouldn't rescue the republicans if they get themselves in trouble. there obviously have been a lot of people who are very opposed to this law, but the reality is, 20 million people have health care who didn't before. yes, there are also people who have higher premiums and higher deductibles, but the calculation here for democrats is that, you know what, the pain that the republicans are going to cause is going to make them own part of this health care debacle.

and you've already had back at the white house josh earnest, white house press secretary, reacting to paul ryan trying to explain what republicans would replace the affordable care act with. >> one of the most articulate republicans is speaker of the house. he did a news conference today where he was unable to explain why republicans have not put forward their replacement plan. this is a debate that democrats can win. because of the impact that this -- that repealing the law, as republicans are vowing to do, would have on the lives of people and communities all across the country. >> reporter: the reality here, ali, is that this is a little bit like a game of jenga. if you want to repeal the health care law, you can pull out key pieces, that mandate that requires people to buy health insurance, the subsidies, perhaps, that people who don't make enough money to pay for it receive from the government. the problem is, that makes the entire law go crashing down.

so, it makes it very hard to say preserve protections for people with preexisting conditions. it's a popular piece of the law. it's something republicans say they want to keep. fiscally it's almost impossible to keep together if you want to fundamentally take this apart. they can repeal it with 51 votes in the senate. they can't put it back together without 60. that's the fundamental problem. >> democrats say they won't support that. i remind everybody, barack obama didn't like the mandate. he didn't like the idea that everyone had to pay for it until he was convinced by the actuaries and mathematicians there's no other way to do it. hans, josh earnest makes a good point that they -- everybody says they've got a plan. they say they've got several plans but they couldn't articulate a plan. what is going on right now is that we understand that the vice president-elect is going to be meeting with joe manchin, senator joe manchin in a few minutes. manchin didn't attend the meeting with president obama on principle.

what's going to go on at this meeting? >> reporter: ali, that meeting will take place right after we hear from vice president-elect pence here, moments away. meeting with manchin, conservative democrat, from west virginia. on this whole notion of plan and what comes next, this is the policy process that paul ryan has wanted to reinstall into the house. have things work through the committee process. in this case, the ways and means. i think you're very right to mention the fact that formulating the plan is always difficult. when there's political context, remember that great mohammed ali quote, everyone has a plan until they get punched. with that i think we have lawmakers coming up behind us. >> keep an eye on the lawmakers coming up behind you. we're expecting mike pence to be speaking. we know that meeting, very they unusual meeting between mike pence and joe manchin about to happen. we'll follow all that very, very closely. it's an unlikely warning for gop efforts to repeal obamacare. president-elect trump fired off a series of tweet this is morning. to tell republicans they need a

concrete plan or risk holding the bag for troubled obamacare policies. trump's vp promised the new white house has its own plan in place. everybody's got a plan, no one wants to tell us what it is. but only until congress can get a real bill in place. joining me from capitol hill is republican congressman from oklahoma, tom cole who attended today's meeting with the vice president-elect. good to see you again. thank you always for -- >> great to be here. >> -- joining us. i have to tell you, republicans have had seven years to repeal and replace obamacare. they've certainly tried to repeal it many, many times. dozens of times. at some point if there's a plan, is someone going to tell someone about it or is it a secret? >> no, i don't think it's a secret. i think, frankly, you know, part of the problem is we're inheriting a failing system. it's already collapsing. and that was going to happen no matter who the next president of the united states was. rates are going up, insurance companies are fleeing the marketplace. and -- >> you're aware, congressman,

that rates are always going up, right? the rate of -- >> not -- >> the rate of increase has slowed. >> not like 116% in, you know, in arizona, an average of 25% across the board. no, they're not always going up. certainly not at these rates. certainly not with insurers actually leaving the marketplace. so, choices have been diminishing. you have to recognize, number one, you're inheriting a system in crisis, not a system that was a functioning system. going to be sustained. number two, you know, i think the basic principles of what we're going to do, that is, a market-based plan, things that incorporate some popular elements are pretty clear. also, frankly, i would look to incoming -- hopefully incoming secretary of health and human services tom price who's laid out a full bore alternative of his own when he was -- as a member of congress. and there's a number of competing plans around that, frankly, have pretty common elements. insurance -- >> congressman, let me ask you

this. i just want to put up a graphic. you won't be able to see it. it's from the kizer family foundation. now, it divides up health care costs increases between 2006 and 2011, a five-year period. and then the latest five-year period, which is 2011 to 2016. the first five-year period saw 31% health care premium increases. the new one is 20%. you can slice this and dice this, but premiums across the board are not actually increasing faster than they were before obamacare. i think that's something republicans are going to have to face. >> i think, frankly, some of that is due to some of the things republicans did, which is, for instance, medicare part d "d" which takes in effect the first period which i think has stabilized or bring down the increase on drug prices. to your point, it's a fair one. it's a very complex picture. i think obamacare exchange rates

have gone up anticipationally high. others not quite so much. again, that's partly because of the nature of the population you have in those exchanges. have you to remember, we have 9 million fewer people under obamacare than was originally estimated would be there at this point. we have 7.5 million that paid fines last year rather than go into this system. it's got a lot of problems and it's going to be complex to fix. going to take some time. >> so, in the end, you've got donald trump saying, don't be caught holding the bag for bad things that happen if you repeal obamacare withsoluti. have you mike pence saying, we ve a backup plan. the white house has a baup plan in case congress doesn't. we have paul ryan saying, we have several backup plans. then you heard nancy pelosi say, you've got no plan. for people who are on obamacare, for those 20 million people, for people who are living off their parents' insurance, for people with pre-existing conditions, something is going to happen in the next three weeks that is going to affect them.

what is your word for them? what is your advice? >> frankly, i don't think anything will happen in the next three weeks that affects them this year. the president-elect has been very plain, and members of congress very plain, nobody's going to lose their insurance in the short run. you're not going to see these things cascading down. a system will be put in place before we transition out of obamacare to something else. >> i appreciate your comments. we're going to hear from vice president-elect pence coming to the podium. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> here we go, vice president-elect mike pence. >> i had the privilege this morning speaking to house republican conference, opportunity to meet with senator schumer in his chambers and then the opportunity to speak with senate republicans today. it is 2017. we are back to work. and just 16 days away from when we'll make america great again. the opportunity to be here with the leadership of the house and senate and to talk about the

priorities of the president-elect and to see the collaboration and the spirit that this leadership team has brought to moving the president's agenda forward is truly inspiring. president-elect said many times on the campaign trail that he had a three-part agenda. jobs, jobs, jobs. and the focus of our administration from the outset, after getting our team in place through the confirmation process, is going to be to focus on supporting economic growth. repealing onerous regulations that are stifling the american economy, working with leaders in the house and the senate to roll back an avalanche of red tape that's come out of this administration will be looking for opportunity. before we get to the spring and to pass the tax relief that the president-elect advocated for working families, small businesses, family farms, really get this economy moving again. there will be a focus on

infrastructure, a focus on board of security, immigration, there will be a focus on military spending, rebuilding our military and, of course, the president-elect will be naming his choice for the supreme court of the united states. but as i said today, to members of the senate, that the first order of business is to repeal and replace obamacare. obamacare has failed. and th american people have sent a decisive message to washington, d.c. that they want obamacare to be repealed and replaced with health care reform that will lower the cost of health insurance without growing the size of government. we're working very closely with the senate leadership on a budget resolution that will begin the process of repealing obamacare and also create a framework for replacement going forward. we're also working on a series of executive orders that the

president-elect will put into effect to ensure that there is an orderly transition during the period after we repeal obamacare to a market-based health care economy in america. look, obamacare has failed. the promises of obamacare have all been proven to be false. i was here in a different capacity in march of 2010. when we were told if you like your doctor, you can keep it. not true. if you like your health insurance, can you keep it. not true. we were told the cost of health insurance would go down if obamacare became law. not true. right now the american people are laboring under extraordinary increases in premiums. the average deductible for a bronze policy today is $12,000. and american families have seen an increase in premium of $5,000. and this year, the average

premium increase on families has been 25%, over 100% in some american states. that all comes to an end when we set into motion the effort to repeal and replace obamacare. what i can assure you and the american people is that president-elect donald trump is a man of his word. he campaigned on a broad range of policies to make america great again, have america prospering again, standing tall in the world again, honoring our most cherished constitutional principles. the first order of business today for the president-elect, and i'm grateful for the leaders of the house and the senate, is to keep our word to the american people. to repeal and replace obamacare with health care reforms that, again, will focus on lowering the cost of health insurance without growing the size of government. the policies we'll be developing in the months ahead, but president-elect strongly

supported efforts popularly advanced in congress in years past, health savings account allowing americans to purchase health insurance across state lines, association health plans, the architecture of the replacement of obamacare will come together as it should, throughout legislative process in the weeks and months ahead. but the american people voted for change in november and the president-elect and i working with the leaders of the house and senate are determined to keep our promise to the american people. that all begins with repealing and replacing the failed policy of obamacare. [ inaudible ] >> i'm sorry, i didn't hear the first part of your question. [ inaudible ] >> reporter: republicans will own it if you -- are you

prepared to own the fallout? >> i think the most important thing for the president-elect and leaders here in congress is we keep our word to the american people. obamacare has failed. all the promises of obamacare have been shown to be false and broken promises. the american people want us to start over, to repeal obamacare and replace it with the kind of reforms that will give the american people more choices. when it comes to health insurance. releasing the power of the free market is the pathway towards expanding access and affordability of health care across this country, and the american people know it. but, you know, the simple fact is, the american people know who owns obamacare. it's the first half of the title. it is obama and the party of obama. what president-elect trump and i and the leaders in the congress are determined to do is to keep faith with the american people

who have -- who have voted in this past historic election, both in the presidential election and in elections here in the congress of the united states to give us the majorities and to give us the control of the white house to make good on that promise. >> reporter: on the president-elect's -- yesterday said on tv that nobody has insurance now under obamacare will go without it. is that your priority that nobody who has insurance now will go without? >> let me just say, we have on the floor of the senate now, the obamacare repeal resolution. the priorities between now and the -- and january 20th are hearings on cabinet members. we hope the minority will treat president-elect obama -- president-elect trump's cabinet selections in the same way we

treated president obama. we confirmed a number on inauguration day itself. we hope to be in a position to do that once again. and we're also going to process the waiver for secretary of defense designee mattis. those are the priorities between now and january 20th. let me also just point out, i noticed my counterpart senator schumer announced yesterday their goal was to apparently never fill the supreme court vacancy. that's kind of an expansion of the biden rule. you recall the biden rule in 1992 was the senate would not confirm a supreme court nominee in the middle of a presidential election year, which was my view last year. senator schumer said in the second bush administration that they would not confirm a supreme court nominee in the last 18 of

president bush 43's tenure. there's personal a new standard now, which is to not confirm a supreme court nominee at all. i think that's something the american people will simply not tolerate and we'll be looking forward to receiving a supreme court nomination and moving forward on it. >> reporter: the insurance question -- >> reporter: senator, on cabinet nominations, do you intend to meet -- >> mitch mcconnell taking questions from reporters after mike pence, you can see over his shoulder, came out of his lunch with republican senators and made some comments. gern again, saying his first order of business -- first order of business for president obama when he gets into office is repeal and replace obamacare. i want to ask sarah clip to come in, senator editor with vox.com. i know you have studdied this well. each guy who comes out gives a

little more detail. no one is talking about entirely getting rid of obamacare and dumping the 20 million people and the kids who are on their parents' insurance and the people with pre-existing conditions. now he's talking about an architecture that will be built in the legislative process to transfer this over to a free market system. what on earth is he talking about? >> i think the details are still very unclear at this point. >> to everyone, apparently. >> yeah. we know the republicans, they to want repeal and replace obamacare. they've talked about that for six years now. but i don't think they have a clear plan at this point for what timeline that works on and what the replacement looks like. particularly that last part. we have a lot of ideas floating around capitol hill but we have not seen the republican party coalesce around a replacement plan. >> tom cole, who i just spoke with, said what you're not going to see -- i said, what do you say to people who are on obamacare and what will happen? he said nothing for this year. whatever they build will take effect in a year to come. but, again, we go back to the

same problem. and i remind people that president-elect obama had the same problem. he didn't believe in a mandate that forced everybody to pay for insurance. he wanted a different system and they just couldn't get around the math to do that. so f the republicans have one or two or seven or eight plans, have they got one that doesn't cause other people to have to pay into it in order to pay for it? >> no, i think that's why the administration included the mandate. it's not because they liked it. it was incredibly unpopular. as you mentioned, president obama campaigned against it when he was running for office but you need the mandate to get people in the pool. republicans have to confront that fact. they have different policies that get people in the pool. they try and get people who have pre-existing conditions in by saying, hey, if you don't keep coverage all the time, we can charge you more after you have a break in coverage. that's not going to be popular. this is going to be a problem that republicans, as they take on this health care effort, as democrats did six years ago, they are going to run into a lot of the problems that democrats really confronted in 2009 and

2010. >> i'm a numbers guy. i'm just looking for the numbers. i just want somebody to tell me exactly how that will work. thank you for being with us. sarah kliff from vox.com. where i get a lot of my explainers from. that brings us to our microsoft pulse question. in its current state, should obamacare be repealed and replaced? let us know what you think at pulse.msnbc.com. he ran and won on the pitch of america first, so why is donald trump appearing to put u.s. intelligence on the back burner? his latest swipes on twitter aimed at the very officials he'll need to keep the homeland safe. in minutes, a final farewell to commander in chief. president obama set to be honored by the armed forces in virginia. we'll bring it to you live here on msnbc. tech: at safelite, we know how busy your life can be.

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donald trump taking another swipe at u.s. intelligence officials in a series of tweets about the russian hacking scandal. the president-elect first posting this, the intelligence briefing on so-called russian hacking was delayed until friday. perhaps more time needed to build a case? very strange. in a tweet following that one, trump seemingly takes the word of wikileaks' founder julian assange, who claims russians weren't the source of those leaked dnc e-mails. vice president-elect, by the way, mike pence, doubled down on donald trump's doubts earlier today. listen. >> i think given some intelligence failures of recent years, the president-elect's made it clear to the american people that he's skeptical about conclusions from the bureaucracy. and i think the american people hear it loud and clear. >> now, minority senate leader chuck schumer offered up this warning to trump about taunting

the intelligence communityn an interview with rachel maddow. >> you take on the intelligence community. they have six ways from sunday at getting back at you. so, even for a practical supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he's being really dumb to do this. >> nbc's intelligence and national security reporter ken joins us from washington. let's start about this intelligence report, the one that president obama ordered about russian hacking. what's the latest on that? >> great to see you. this is the classified report that's going to lay out all the evidence the intelligence community has amassed, making the case russian hacked. to our understanding it's all but finished, will be briefed to president obama tomorrow and briefed to president-elect trump. there will be a public version released, a much sanitized version. the big question there is what will be declassified? what can they release to the snub. >> talking about releasing it,

giving donald trump a briefing on friday, that tweet that it's delayed until friday. what's that all about? was it delayed or did he just not know he was getting it on friday? >> there's a dispute about that. u.s. intelligence officials tell us there was no delay. it was always scheduled for friday. very senior officials are briefing him. we do have a source, a senior u.s. intelligence official who said at one point the trump team may have been told it was going to happen earlier this week. so, there may have been a misunderstanding in scheduling. what this really underscores is there are going about when a briefing was scheduled, there's a deep gulf of distrust opening. >> let's talk about jooil julian astaining. he said he did not get his information from the russian government. interesting wording there. donald trump -- let's listen to what donald trump said about julian assange in 2010. listen. >> he had nothing to do with it. >> it's disgraceful. >> you think it's disgraceful? >> should be getting the death penalty. now donald trump tweeting that he thinks julian assange may be

on to something that the russian government didn't leak the information to wikileaks. >> yeah, it's just remarkable. you know, there are a lot of republicans and trump supporters who work for the cia and other intelligence agencies. but there's no julian assange party in that group. there are very few if any assange supporters. he's not making any friends, trump, by appearing to side with assange over this. but the larger issue is, intelligence officials i'm speaking to are very concerned. they understand that trump has a hard time accepting the idea that russia interfered in the election because it appears to impugn his victory and opens the question of whether, you know, it had an effect on the result. but they were assuming trump would come around as his people has been briefed on the intelligence, he's been briefed on the intelligence. they're seeing him double down on tweets that appear to impugn his integrity and they're disturbed about it. >> we'll watch this all this week as the first release of that report comes out and then the trump release and then a

public release. thank you for that. chilling moments in south carolina today in a courtroom. jurors hearing directly from dylann roof for the very first time. the jury is set to weigh punishment for the convicted killer, who is defending himself. he's representing himself in the sentencing phase of his trial. now, last month the same jury found roof guilty on all 33 federal counts against him. roof gunned down nine parishioners of the emanuel a. me church during bible study in june of 2015. nbc's marianna is outside the courtroom for us in charleston, south carolina. let me understand this. dylann roof started this extraordinary opening statement by basically telling the jurors, he's not crazy. what's he trying to accomplish? >> reporter: ali, proving that he's not crazy has been one of the most important things for dylann roof since these proceedings started. he spent the entirety of his opening statement on this issue. and it was the reason he fired

his defense team, because they wanted to introduce evidence about his mental health. now, i just spoke to two family members who told me how frustrating it is for them that he keeps trying to prove that he's sane, because he's, in fact, showing no emotion. no remorse. now, ali, happening inside this courtroom now, the jury is hearing from jennifer pickny, the wife of the pastor who was murdered that night at mother emanuel church. jennifer is giving some very emotional, powerful testimony. essentially on what it was like to hear her husband die she described how she was able to hide in the study of her church with her daughter. only a wall separating her and dylann roof. she also said how she was able to crack the door open. she saw dylann roof and heard him say, i am not crazy. i have to do this. she was able to shut the door, lock it and she hid with her daughter under the table of the

study. at that moment, she heard her daughter ask her, mommy, is daddy going to die? then she had to put her hand over her daughter's mouth so dylann roof wouldn't hear them. they were able to call 911. parts of that tape are being played inside the courtroom now, ali. you can hear jennifer asking the operating, the only thing i want to know is if my husband has been killed. and she's choking in that courtroom as that tape is being played, ali. one of the most heart-wrenching moments is when she described how police got to them in the study and took them out and told their daughter to not look at the aftermath of this massacre. to bury her head in her mother's shoulder. jennifer says looking at all the blood on the floor made her sick, especially knowing her husband was among the deceased. >> i want to take you back to something you said at the beginning. that the family members are

frustrated by dylann roof saying he's not crazy. obviously f you can convince the jury he's not crazy, the fact he gets the death sentence increases. why is that making the family members frustrated? >> reporter: these two family members, the father of sanders and the uncle of sanders, told me themselves it seems from dylann roof's actions and the fact that he's trying to prove he's not crazy, that he is seeking the death penalty. they acknowledge that. but it's frustrating to them that he's just stood there, they said, like a statue. the fact he didn't even acknowledge the massacre, the killings or how difficult this was for him to undertake at all during his opening statements. >> that's a tough trial to cover. thank you so much for bringing us up to speed on that. with just days left in office, president obama is making his rounds. set to be honored any minute now at an armed services ceremony in

virginia. when it begins, we'll bring it to you. promising to repeal obamacare helped trump win the white house, but could his supporters ultimately pay the price if it's repealed before it's replaced? we're on the ground in pennsylvania getting some answers. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare? that's a good thing, but it doesn't cover everything. only about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you. so consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company.

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most because the law mandates coverage for those who pre-existing conditions. caps on out-of-pocket costs have saved many families from bankruptcy. i remind you that bankruptcy -- personal bankruptcy is caused more by health costs than anything else. let's look at costs because you're hearing a lot of people on tv tell you that obamacare has made premium costs go up. now, this is done by the kaiser family foundation who has stu studied this for a long time. they divided it in two five-year periods, between 2006 and 2011 and 2011 and 2016. between 2006 and 2011 health care increases were up 31%. since then they're up 20%. it's important to note when you're hearing people say that obamacare has caused premiums to rise. premiums were always going up. if you were a voter who thaw the law went too far, there's a good chance you voted for donald trump who won those votes by 67

points. people who thought it went too far. msnbc senior editor cal perry is live in gettysburg, pennsylvania, at a diner, it appears, where trump supporters are giving him their two cents. good to see you. been watching you talk to people all day. families are breaking down what these rising health care costs have meant to them. down to the dollar for you, how much of this unpopularity politics and how much is people actually paying more under obamacare. >> reporter: yes, the answer to that is yes. this is the central issue. perception in politics is reality and when you talk about a place like, this a county where you have 66% of people voting for donald trump, that's people who are listening to donald trump, they are following donald trump's twitter feed. they are hanging onto every word donald trump has to say about obamacare because, frankly, he was beating that drum in the months leading up to the election in places like southern

pennsylvania. as you said, we're talking about premiums. people are worried about their premiums going up. they have gone up. we spoke to ryan fox, a financial adviser, so he's a little more educated on the issue than some people are. here's what he had to say about his premiums. >> over the last three years our premiums for health care have gone up 80% for our family. our deductibles have gone up 189% over that time. massive, massive increases. what that equates to in dollars, we went from about $6,000 a year to $12,000 a year for 2017 health care. adams county where we are now, two or three years ago you had 15 choices through the exchanges. this year you had three. >> reporter: and that is the other thing we have heard here consistently is we need more choices. the state of pennsylvania, this county, adams county, went down to three options when it came to providers through obamacare and people said that was down from the dozen options or so they had

before. again, overhanging all of this is the politics playing out on capitol hill. when you hear president-elect trump point the finger at democrats, it just kind of harkens back to the time of the election, to that campaign season, to the primaries held around the country and people here respond to that. they're willing to lay blame at democrats at times more than potentially finding a solution. a lot of that, of course, is that this issue has become so convoluted, so complicated when you talk about premiums and subsidies and insurance. it's a complicated issue. people like the president-elect have really done a tremendous job of political sizing it. >> cal perry, good see you. i really like your diner wear, by the way. is that what you always wear to the diner? >> reporter: thank you, sir. thank you. >> diner blazer in gettysburg. joining me now are msnbc political analyst rick tyler, democratic strategist julian epstein. good to see both of you. >> hi, ali. >> take a minute off while i ask rick the thing i've been asking

every republican today. what's the plan? why is it a secret? seven years you guys have had to figure out what you're replacing obamacare with. now everybody's all about the fact that we're going to replace it. we're not just repealing it. please, tell me what the plan is. >> well, that would presume we can have a comprehensive replacement plan. that's not the way republicans have been operating. so, you took this huge, massive bill that nancy pelosi family mousley said we have to pass it to see what's in it because it's so complex and massive. and it's not going to be replaced with something similar. it's going to be repealed over time. what's going to get repealed that can be repealed through the process of reconciliation, so they don't have to get a cloture vote will be repealed. then it will be replaced, i'd suspect, over several years w you know, short, different measures to get it to where it's more free market than none. by the way, ali, there are two plans. seeker ryan has a plan called a better way. and tom price, who when he was in the house, introduced a bill. those -- that bill and a better way are largely in sync with

each other. there's clearly a framework for a replacement plan. >> you know for the things that republicans want to keep in place, it doesn't work without a mandate. no one's come up with -- this is just math. it's not a policy or opinion matter. >> right. look, the republicans don't like the idea of a mandate. have you to get people to voluntarily move to a free market -- >> healthy, young, strapping people who don't to want pay for insurance they don't need. hold on, rick. >> that's right. >> out of politeness, have i to bring julien into the conversation. i don't have that many tough questions for you on this one, except what exactly are democrats going to do? there seem to be some mixed messages about working with republicans to -- look, in some way, if the republicans come up with some fashion to replace this, are democrats going to get on board or are they not going to have anything to do with this? >> if they can do what obamacare, insure 10 out of 10

americans, keep the rise in premiums from what they otherwise would have been. do things like have pre -- the provisions on pre-existing conditions, the out-of-pocket expenditures, limits on lifetime coverage. all those kind of things if the republicans can square the circle on that. of course, democrats want to participate. the fact of the matter is, as you just pointed out, you can't do this without the mandate. if you take away the mandate, what you do is shift all the risk pools to the high-risk individuals. at that point, premiums skyrocket. nobody will be able to afford health insurance and everyone will go to the reagan law signed in the 1980s which will allow to you get coverage in emergency rooms, the most expensive part of health care. with what rick just said, with all due respect to rick s the weasel response republicans are giving when they say they're going to replace it with something but they have no idea what they're going to replace it with. and the game donald trump is playing today, most interestingly, is he's now

defeating and saying, if you repeal obamacare, have you to replace it with something. but he won't say what you're going to replace it with. >> i'm going to pull up a full screen from the kaiser family foundation. from 2006 to 2011 before obamacare the premiums -- health care premiums increased at a rate of 31% over the five-year period. since 2011 to 2016, i'll remind people that obamacare came into effect january 1, 2014, health care premiums have increased by 20%. so how do we deal with this lie that we're hearing about the fact that obamacare caused premiums to be higher overall on average? >> let's use their numbers. let's say if that first five-year period your health care premium was $300 a month. a 31% increase and that would be, what, $62, $63. in the second period where premiums rose 20%, if your premium is $500, what's 20% of $500? $100. which is greater, $62 or $100?

>> rick, please be honest. >> that doesn't -- >> hold on a second. please be honest with the viewers here. >> that's icky math. >> no, that's a premium -- >> there's a simpler way to put this. >> if they rise in one period they'rgoing up the lesser -- >> rick, rick, hold on. >> that's just not -- >> hold on a second. >> rick, that's not math i studied in my life. >> that's fuzzy math. let me put it to you a simpler way. the cbo, which republicans and democrats all agree is the gold standard in terms of -- >> i don't agree because they do static scoring. go ahead. >> okay. they said, they say according to their figures that health care costs premiums would have increased somewhere on the avere from 12% to 20% without -- 12% to 20% higher without obamacare. so, cbo, kaiser, brookings are all saying the same thing. that obamacare kept the premiums from increasing much higher than they otherwise would have. and the dat is arguable -- >> hold on.

the central argument, the biggest lie of the year, is you can keep your health care and your health care premiums will go down, on average $2500. >> rick, i a -- i got to go because the president is coming. i granted you that. that's not true. >> that's not true. >> your math on that one was not right. you and i will have many chances talk about that. >> that was absolutely right. u can checkhe math. >> i do check the math. that's what i do for a living. it is my specialty, actually, checking math. >> yes. when premiums rise you get a decrease in rise of premiums -- >> that is -- rick, i like you a lot, but that's sleight of hand. >> the kaiser -- >> i'm asking my control room to book rick again so we can talk math. good see you. >> good to see you. happening now in virginia, a final salute to president obama. ceremony to honor the commander in chief being held by the armed forces at joint base meyer henderson hall just over the potomac river from washington. top military brass are in attendance. ron allen is at the white house.

this event is capping off what's been a tumultuous relationship between the military and president obama, their commander in chief. >> reporter: indeed. this is one of the moments of american democracy. the president is at the base with the vice president and members of the armed services. he's going to be honored, review the troops and this is essentially a farewell to the commander in chief. as you know, president obama holds a unique distinction of being the first and only american to serve two full terms during a time of war. coming in with iraq, afghanistan and now the war against isis that continues in the middle east, syria, iraq and elsewhere around the world. yes, we're expecting to hear a 21-gun salute, the national anthem. the president will be receiving numerous medals and honors from the various services, the army, navy, air force, marines and coast guard. we'll hear from the president. we'll hear from secretary carter. you're right, to some extent there's been something of a -- some tension between the commander in chief and the

troops. president obama constantly pushes back hard, saying he's not been reluctant to send troops into harm's way when he's seen it as essential to defending the national security. he also talks about how he has brought so many troops home when he came to office, there were some 180,000 troops in iraq and afghanistan. the number is now about 15,000. he's also talked about how being the commander in chief is the most solemn part of his responsibility as president of the united states. he talks about how difficult it has been to send troops off and to speak to their families and comfort their families when some of those brave men and women do not come home. so, we're expecting to see a lot of pageantry, a lot of pomp and circumstance. we'll hear from the president for the last time as commander in chief on this particular stage, at this particular base during this farewell ceremony very soon. >> ron, we'll keep an eye on it. when the president speaks, we'll go right back to the base. ron allen at the white house for us. breaking news to talk about this time from the hill.

senator mitch mcconnell meeting moments ago with rex tillerson, donald trump's nominee for secretary of state. his nomination is controversial.

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they're being played off after a slowdown in demand for cruze see dan, the same one donald trump claims gm is making in mexico to sell in the united states. nbc's ron mott is live in warren, ohio. quite a contrast in optics coming up on inauguration day. it's interesting the county you're in, trumbell county, has voted recently. trump won by seven points. a county that barack obama won in 2012. >> reporter: they say, we're democrats in this part of ohio but a lot voted for donald trump at the top of the ticket because of the that campaign promise he said about america first, american jobs. as you mentioned, on january 20th, the day donald trump is going to be sworn in as our 45th president, 1200 folks who work

here are going to lose their jobs. and a lot of folks say this is going to have some real hardships on folks here because manufacturing jobs are not plentiful in this area. here's what one worker had to say who had enough seniority to keep the jobs over those who are about to lose theirs. >> we had a whole third shift of hard-working people that have brought this cruze to an excellent position and now they're without a job, some starting families, buying homes and now that's all gone. >> reporter: they say they would like to see donald trump here at this plant, perhaps meeting with plan officials here and those in detroit about how to bring those 1200 jobs back here at some point along in the future rather than to see him tweeting. speaking of a tweet from yesterday, he tweeted gm is

building this cruze model down in mexico. it's not the sedan model, it's the hatchback. bringing those cars back. in donald trump's words, tax-free. he says either build the car in the u.s. or pay a hefty tax, a hefty tariff, if you will. i spoke to one worker who has worked at gm for 30 years. she said she doesn't understand why the company made the decision to take that particular model down to mexico. she says, it's just one part. now, that may be an oversimplification between this particular car and the hatchback version of the same model they're building down in mexico. she says there's no reason why we can't build in car here. have you a lot of proud workers here. they are about america first here. they want donald trump to hold up to those campaign promises of bringing jobs back to america. so, on the day he raises his right hand, 1200 americans will lose their jobs here. >> people understood the health care advantage in canada, dot

workers you're speaking to realize they're making it in mexico is because it's cheaper labor? >> reporter: they absolutely do. they were clear about this. this was not a carrier in indiana, if you will, where jobs are shifting there, while these folks lose their jobs. gm made a business decision about building cars down there because they can roll them off the line a bit less expensively than they can here. there are very smart workers here. they understand the economic and market forces that govern their industry. at the same time, they're saying, why not build that car here, find a way to make that market stronger for the small car while gas prices are low. so people can keep their jobs. it's a very smart group of people. >> and gas prices are going up. thanks for your great coverage there. ron mott for us in ohio. before we go, one last check of your responses to our microsoft pulse question.

in its current state should obamacare be repealed and replaced? here are the results. 6% say yes. 94% of you say no. that speaks for itself. that wraps up our coverage for this hour. i am ali velshi in new york. follow me on twitter @alivelshi. kate snow picking things up for us now. let's start off with the top three stories. republicans wasting no time trying to repeal obamacare as democrats plan their strategy for a fight. at this hour, the vice president-elect mike expense on capitol hill. meeting with members of the house and the senate on repeal efforts. a short time ago, pence said republicans are keeping their promise. >> the first or the of business today for the president-elect, and i'm grateful for the leaders of the house and the senate, is to keep our word to the american people. to repeal and replace obamacare with health care reforms that, again, will focus on lowering

the cost of health insurance without growing the size of government. and earlier president obama met with democrats on the hill about protecting his signature legislation. after that meeting senate minority leader chuck shum her this to say. >> we have a great deal of optimism that the good things that have happened in aca are going to stay. and that our republican colleagues don't quite know what to do. they're like the dog who caught the bus. they can repeal but have nothing to put in its place. that means so many good things go away. >> we have got all the angles of obamacare and the repeal fight covere we'll talk to a congressman who was in that meeting with president obama in just a moment. plus, we're on the ground in pennsylvania talking to trump voters about what an obamacare repeal could mean for them. also happening right now, members of the military holding a ceremony to say farewell to president obama before he leaves office. defense secretaras