tuesday. i'm alex witt alongside louis burgdorf. "morning joe" is standing by. good morning, it's tuesday, january 17. welcome to "morning joe." ancho news america katty kay. >> she's feeling better. she wasn't feeling good. >> i hope she's okay. >> there was a massive outpouring on the twitter for katty looking to see if queen elizabeth would recover. >> i have no idea what you're talking about. >> new tie, new job. >> former communications for ted cruz presidential campaign now msnbc political contributor rick tyler with us as well. good to have you all on board. all good? nothing to spew out first thing in the morning? fantastic. then let's get right to the news. in his final days as director of

the central intelligence agency, john brennan is firing back at president-elect donald trump for his, quote, repugnant comments on sunday. john brennan said trump's suggestion of lifting sanctions against russia was because he didn't think he had a full understanding of russia's capabilities an actions around the world. trump responded on twitter listing what he sees as recent foreign policy blunders saying he couldn't do much worse looking at syria, crimea, buildup of russian nukes. asking about brennan, was this the leaker of fake news? here we go. last night brennan denied allegations to the "wall street journal" saying, quote, i think it's the right and, indeed, the responsibility of the president of the united states to challenge the conclusions of the intelligence community. we don't expect our information and assessments to be swallowed whole. it's when there are allegations made about leaking or dishonesty or lack of integrity, that's

where i think the line is crossed. tell the families of those 117 cia officers who are forever memorialized on our wall of honor that their loved ones who gave their lives were akin to nazis. tell the cia officers who are serving in harm's way right now and their families who are worried about them, that they are akin to nazi germany. i found that to be forever repugnant. i will forever stand up for patriotism of my officers who have done much over the years to sacrifice for their fellow citizens. >> that got personal pretty fast. >> that was a profound statement. >> i don't think donald trump and i don't think anybody in the media accused donald trump of making slanderous statements about anybody other than brennan and the people leaking documents. it wasn't about 117 officers. >> i disagree.

i think there's been some tension with the intelligence community unnecessary, a bad start and that's on trump. >> it is. there were repugnant statements, no doubt about it. i wonder whether this was again something else i wish everybody would be quiet. >> nazi germany. if you're running for high office, about to take high office, just clete it. it's not necessary. >> if only the media would have followed that because that really is a very good -- that is a very good guideline to follow. unfortunately the media hasn't followed it referencing donald trump and fascism. "new york times" has had one section after another, even their art section. i agree what donald trump did was repugnant. i wish somebody could wrestle his phone away from him, and i wish other people wouldn't respond.

i don't know. >> we can't say, just to put it all out on the table, i think you would agree with this, you can't say congressman john lewis responded it and he had a right to respond when his presidency was questioned or the cia started it or trump started it and cia had a right to respond. of course you have a right to respond to egregious statements. they shouldn't be made, whether it's lewis, sorry. sorry, with so much due respect. unless everybody at this table thinks this presidency is illegitimate, that's probably not the most constructive thing to say. as for trump and the way he treated the intelligence community, which are probably the people he needs the most in terms of his safety and security and our safety and security, i just think he's handled them like toys. >> people need to get back in their corners. i think there's a growing understanding, katty, donald trump is watching his poll numbers, especially

independents, plummet specifically because of his use of twitter, this great powerful device. >> it is abuse but he's going to keep on doing it. >> his poll numbers aren't going up. you ask people what's disturbing him, you look at the gallup poll and in part it's because of this reckless language. >> the problem with twitter when it comes to terroristic policy far to blunt with 140 characters for the world we live in. i think americans are looking at president-elect and thinking friday he's going to be president and what's the tone he's going to be set. is it going to be presidential? it's not what comes out of twitter. donald trump might say i don't care whether i'm presidential, my 20 million twitter followers are loving what they hear object twitter. that's not the point. the country and his poll

numbers -- his poll numbers are tanking and then it's hard to get them back up again. >> that's what he cares about. he does care about the numbers. he doesn't care unfortunately if european allies are spooked. he does care about the poll numbers. jim, i don't know if donald trump -- there's no reason why he would know this, sitting president. with poll numbers, what goes up must come down. what goes up always comes down. the opposite is not true. you get down in the 30s, i've seen politicians in the 30s, you can ask george w. bush, rick scott in florida, ask a lot of people, ask chris christie. when you get down in the 30s, sometimes it doesn't rise back up. i think he's doing a lot of things. he's exhausting the american public before the day he's sworn into power. he's president of the united states. he's used a time other presidents have used to see

their poll numbers go up, he's had his drop pretty dramatically among independents. >> particularly when they have such ambitions, health care reform, tax care, infrastructure build all in a couple months. if you just look at the last 72 hours, it's chaos and confusion in terms of whether they want border adjustment to be part of tax reform. republican on the hill thought he did, now he told the journal he doesn't. comments about health care reform, does he really want coverage for every single american? that would be different than the plan republicans were putting together. he seemed to suggest in one of his overseas interviews that he sees putin and merkel as equals, allies. to a lot of people, just a lot of confusion at a time when they are really scrambling to put together a white house. you talk to people over there all the time. they are left with a dossier from chris christie that had almost nothing in it. they had to try to put together

a white house in a couple months. they are far behind on under-secretaries and all the positions you need to have to run a government. and it's showtime in two days. >> exhaustion is the word. >> it is exhaustion. >> exhaustion. we all feel exhausted and we haven't even got to friday. >> when you're president of the united states, one of the reason reagan was successful, he was easy to handle for american people. he was their grandfather. i'll do a show business reference because it's true. donald trump think it's showbiz, it's showbiz. the reason carson was successful 40 years, he came into people's bedrooms at night and he didn't exhaust them. he talked about winning in the central time zone, a lot of people might be offended by this talk, when you exhaust somebody every day, at some point they turn you off.

they always -- >> it's not a powerful tool anymore. >> always turn people off, the best communicators. people turned ronald reagan off by 1996. turned him off. there's nothing he could say they would listen to. he ended positively but turned him off in '96. you're a communication guy, talking about no discipline, chaos on john john lewis, chaos on nato, germany, health care, chaos on putin, chaos on merkel. now, you could find mitigating statements on both sides of the divide there, but it's just -- why are you making american people and the world try to sort through word salad every single day. right now one, two, three, four, five, six fights going on. >> anger can work, worked in 1994 very well. republican majority, people angry in government. that's happened here again. you're absolutely right.

when the voters become exhausted day after day after day, they want that to go away. donald trump, to your point what donald trump can't afford to have is to lose his independence. he's acting as if he has a government mandate and he may very well have. at the same time as soon as his poll numbers go down, he will lose that mandate and congress, even republicans, because on trade, for instance, not all republicans are on board with trade. not all republicans are on board with the way he's going to replace obama care. i don't think they are ever going to have -- trump said recently we're going to repeal and replace almost simultaneously. that requires a 60 vote margin in the senate. the replace part, not the repeal part. unless you have the country backing you, he hasn't articulated any of this. >> that's a great example. republicans listen to him. paul ryan listened to him. you know why? incoming president of the united states. did well in the community. >> also has a new way --

>> 44, 45% approval rating. when that's 35, 36% approval rating, i don't have to see a whole lot of polls if this continues, he'll be down in the 30s no matter what he does if this continue, then they listen to him a lot less. >> a different arrow no president has used before, that is this insult tweetfest he engages in. >> which is driving down his poll numbers. >> true. >> he says, katty, it's great -- how many tens of millions of people can he get a message out to. it is a dream for a politician. >> 4 to 6 million. >> go over the networks and "new york times." he's right. it's like "new york times" and "washington post," we're over it, get your message out to tens of millions of people if you use it sparingly and wisely.

but he's exhausting people with all of these fights. again, the poll numbers show independents are starting to run away from him because of it. >> every president has tried to find a new form of mass communication to get over the heads of the press. fdr did it, reagan did it successfully. this is a new extension of it with a new technological tool he's using and he's done it well. if he's creating so much confusion and chaos and noise, how do you then in that environment get through clear policy proposal. that's what he wants on communication. he wants to do something on health care. if you want health care you don't want distraction of everything around it. i don't see in two weeks how he's going to get headlines if he carries on tweeting the way he's been tweeting to focus on the thing he wants to do. >> it's nonstop. you look at the tweeting, let's talk about some tweets that actually work. his tweets about boeing,

fantastic, as far as political. is $4 billion too much? they are going to have to cut it in half. great message. lockheed, ripped off with f-35. that works. even with germany. i know german hate it. hey, you know what, you want to sell cars in america, build your plants in america. i'm just talking politically. politically those sort of industrial policy arguments, economic policies on twitter, that's a great bullhorn. but as you say, there's so much other nonsense going on with all of these stupid -- and they are stupid fights. stupid fights with john lewis, stupid fights with intel community we've been saying from the very beginning, stupid fights with anybody who says the first -- he's going to be president of the united states for god's sake. he doesn't have to fight everybody. >> i think he wants these fights. i actually do. >> if he does, he likes approval

ratings in the 30s. >> you're right, whether you agree with the policy or not, he's done more to get companies to change the behavior than a lot of presidents can do in office. and he's actually pretty well poised to do a health care bill conservatives love, tax reform bill business loves and infrastructure bill i think democrats might love. but if you create an atmosphere, to your point, you have low favor able ratings and you have your critics trying to one up each other in making a stand against you and little by little lose the faith of the republicans on capitol hill, all those things get exponentially harder. he is positioned, if you play your dards right, to have astronomical first 100 days. you think about how bush and obama, they did get party help from the other side. >> this conversation, listen to richard coen and see if it's a warning or overstated. whether he knows it or not the

specter of lyndon baines johnson haunts trump. jarring similarities, big fleshy men given to vulgarities and goech behavior, boastful, thin skinned, politically amoral, vengeful, unforgiving and most important considered illegitimate presidents. for johnson that took some time to sink in. trump is already there. nevertheless an air of illegitimacy clung to him like an oder. but trump ought to pay attention to congressman lewis and what he represents. the president-elect will take the oath with a minority of the popular vote, a substantial deficit of almost 3 million votes. he enters the oval office with historically dismal poll numbers, lower now than right after he won the election. he has done nothing to woo the majority of americans who rejected his candidacy. lyndon johnson would no doubt

warn trump he's already on thin ice and he will plunge through it the moment congress takes the measure of his unpopularity. is that a fair warning? >> yes, it is a fair warning. it's a fair warning because donald trump, don't know that he grasps katty, the power he has. a president can go out once a week and write two sentences and it can change policy across the world. he has so much power, and he constantly is overmodulating. again, exhausting. everybody around him. exhausting, more importantly, the people that voted for him and others. who loses support during the time between their election and the time they are sworn in? the answer is nobody but donald

trump. >> well, somebody who behaves in a way that is seemingly unpresidential. i think donald trump takes it almost to the point of pride not to be overawed by the office of presidency. but he can take that too far in picking fights with too many people. if your poll numbers are tanking the way his have over the last two months, why take on more enemies. he prides himself on being a fighter and being the guy who is prepared to fight with angela merkel, a traditional ally, fight with the intelligence community, fight with john lewis, fight with meryl streep. at some point picking fights with everybody when your poll numbers are falling minimizes your pool of allies and alliances you need later on. >> he even understood this during the primary. there were two times -- he lost

in indiana, wisconsin. remember, he went da, as much as trump ever goes dark, and kept his head down, avoided fights. two weeks later he won new york by, what, 20, 30, 40 points. >> every single county except manhattan. >> absolutely swept everybody in the northeast. we saw it right before the election. he stayed out of his way the last 10 days. a lot of things happened starting with jim comey the last 10 days. but also donald trump knew well enough to stay out of the way and let the comey story carry the agenda for the next 10, 11 days. he's not staying out of the way here. he's getting in his way every single day. >> that's what i mean. i actually think he wants these fights. take the press conference. the press conference was supposed to be about what? businesses and ethics and how

he's going to structure his business. he put out all this paper how he was going to do it. it was a dog and pony show. none of the structures he put up were satisfying with conflicts of interests. that's not what it ended up being about. it ended up being about the dirty dossier. he used that to his advantage. another one of these other here. now he's in a fight with john lewis. mentioned the people he's in a fight w he was in a fight with the pope, john mccain. he's in a fight with a lot of sort of sacred cow people you're not supposed to get in a fight with, and he wins. i agree with you we'll get exhausted and the voter will get exhausted but everything we say about donald trump and his communication seems to work. >> people want a fighter in the campaign, all for a fighter but in the end we want a president. >> we're in this time where it's

like everybody is either all right or all wrong. john lewis isn't 100% wrong and he isn't 100% right. john lewis isn't either. a great deal of being president-elect obama could say i apologize for delegitimatizing presidency of barack obama for all those years. you apologize for delegitimizing my presidency but come to my inauguration and let's all get along but that's not going to happen. >> coming up, john mccain will join us. also reporting from hallie jackson. "new york times" reporter. friday live in washington to cover the presidential inauguration. our coverage kicks off 6:00 a.m. blocks from capitol hill. among our many guests on set will be minority leader nancy pelosi and senator rand paul.

here now the forecast. >> you might wan to pack the little umbrella. not saying the big umbrella but little one. i'll explain in a second. let me first get to what happened over the weekend and holidays big ice storm across the country. kansas hit hard, oklahoma hit hard and areas around iowa. doesn't look bd but thin coating of ice makes a world of difference. no traction whatsoever. that storm through the ohio valley with mostly rain. plenty warm enough all rain in the great lakes. when it gets to the northeast later today, that's where we get freezing rain, areas of western new york. snow this afternoon changing to freezing rain, central new england, northern portions of new york state then all snow, areas of new hampshire and also up here in maine. we're not talking blockbuster snow, four to six inches higher terrain, most cities fine. no issues except a little rain in texas. areas out in the west will have a big storm coming in. how about inauguration on friday? looks like we start dry in the morning, showers and light rain during the afternoon. festivities will begin to kick

off around 11:30 in the morning. hopefully he we'll get through that but parade will have to deal with wet weather. update the forecast and get closer to friday. regardless washington, d.c., looks very warm and mild as we go through inauguration week. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. and the wolf huffed and puffed... like you do sometimes, grandpa? well, when you have copd, it can be hard to breathe. it can be hard to get air out, which can make it hard to get air in. so i talked to my doctor. she said...

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yada yada yada. stream some stuff! somewhere! sometimes! you totally nailed that buddy. simple. don't let directv now limit your entertainment. only xfinity gives you more to stream to any screen. china is hitting back against recent comments made by president-elect trump he may do away with one china policy. a foreign ministry spokeswoman said the policy is, quote, precondition and political basis for any country having relations with china. adding that if used as a bargaining chip they will be opposed by chinese government and people. this comes after trump told "wall street journal" last week that the one china policy was for upward negotiation and also labeling china as currency manipulators. all this serves as a backdrop to

world economic form in davos switzerland where chinese president xi jinping is speaking this morning. joining us from davos is correspondent keir simmons. what did the president said. >> this is a gathering of wealthy, political leaders, media leaders in a swiss ski resort. this is everything voters rejected in 2016. that said, mika, i have just sat in a room where people watched president xi set up his position as new flag bearer for global economy rebutting donald trump without ever mentioning trump by name saying globalization is not the cause of the world's problems. at times he was almost patronizing saying at one time china thought that globalization -- had doubts about globalization.

he learned china must have courage to swim in vast ocean of global markets. if one is afraid, one gets drowned sooner or later. he went on to say everyone around the world should share in the benefits. this is the responsibility that leaders of our times must take on, he said. people around the world expect nothing less of us. and just to repeat, this is the leader of china. this is the leader of chinese communist party in europe. the kind of diplomacy benjamin franklin would have recognized. he's sending out talking about stability around the world while at the same time flexing his muscles in the south china sea. >> you know, keir, joe scarborough here. you say this a week oar so, an economist in the united states says as he goes across the world now, the only true capitalists he's finding are the chinese leaders. he'll go into a room with these

western powers and all this populist talk about protectionism and scratch their heads. it does appear as you're saying today in davos, carrying the mantel of milton friedman, the leader of communist china. >> right. the leader of the free world is a chinese president that leads a country that's not free. let's be clear if donald trump might listen to this, hold on, china has been protecting its own economy for years. that's my problem. by the way, chinese lecturing how to deal with refugee process, not opposing globalization but bringing stability to the world. people would show china hasn't shown that kind of approach itself in its own region but it is pretty stunning. >> keir simmons, thank you. >> thank you. >> katty, it is fascinating that

actually one area, they are talking about free trade, united states and britain and other countries retreat a bit more. there is -- you can see, there is a coming fight between donald trump and the chinese. this is one fight, bluntly, the american people i don't think will mind. >> i'm boggling about cheese fondu. that was cheese fondu. i don't know. there's a risk of all of the fights donald trump seems to be prepared to pick, picking a fight with china i'm not sure is the most wise. it might look good politically. whether it's going to be good economically or in terms of national security, this is the one relationship where push the chinese too far whether it's on the one chinese policy in taiwan, which is probably the most sensitive of political

issues donald trump seems to be messing with, he could end up with unintended consequences whether it's over north korea, over trade, over currency but i think could actually come back to haunt him. >> certainly could. remember when we were on the hill. >> this fight is coming. >> every year we would have massive fights over mfm, most favorite trade status. and the united states would bow to whatever the chinese wanted, set conditions for the next year, break all conditions. the united states for the past 20 years has been so desperate to get into the chinese markets that the chinese actually have had a free ride and gotten pretty much whatever they wanted for 20 years. in some areas i think it's horrific you don't embrace angela merkel more positively than he did. object china again, i think there may be a little bit of a

readjustment here. >> i think a big readjustment. when you talk to people around trump, they don't spend much time talking about russia. they spend a lot of time talking about china and a big major reset. they want to provoke china. what they would say, sure, he's at davos talking about globalism and free trade because they are rigging the rules. >> is that in part why he seems to be obsequious against russia. >> i'll never understand. i'll never fully understand. >> i don't understand either but strategically does that lay into playing russia off china. >> all i know, you know steve miller, steve bannon, people around the president spend a lot of time thinking about china and really shaking up the map, in terms of that being the next threat to us in the four to eight years he's in office, the

obsession, russia part of that. resetting, i don't understand why so solicitous. you have mccain on maybe he can give us an indication of that. the thing need to be learning about, taiwan, one china policy. >> their obsession is with china. >> you go to pick that fight, you have to think five, six, seven steps ahead in terms of retaliation. up next former cia and nsa director general michael hayden joins the conversation. on tomorrow's show, white house press secretary josh earnest joins us. we're back in just a moment with more "morning joe." thanks for loading, sweetie.

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times" reports foreign leaders are trying to discern trump's positions, finding conflict between the president-elect, his cabinet nominees and even his own statements. responding to trump's times of london interview in which he called the nato alliance obsolete, german chancellor angela merkel told reporters she was aware of trump's positions

and said, quote, i think we europeans have our fate in our own hands, adding i'm personally going to wait until the american president takes office. then we will naturally work with him on all levels. but trump had also praised merkel plenty of times in that interview with the times of london. when asked who is the most important leader in europe, trump responded, i would say merkel is by far the most important leader because you look at the uk and you look at the european union, it's germany. he also said i have great respect for her. i felt she was a great, great leader. i think she made one very catastrophic mistake, and that's taking all these illegals, you know, taking all the people from wherever they come. nobody really knows where they come from. besides saying nato is obsolete, he also said a lot of these countries aren't paying what they are supposed to be paying, which i think is very unfair to the united states. with that being said, nato is very important to me. there's five countries that are

paying what they are supposed to. five. it's not much. >> so this is, rick, the problem with the news coverage over the last couple of days. i read "new york times" and read negative comments about merkel. you don't read the part where trump is saying merkel is a great, great, great leader, a most important leader. i like her. same with nato. you hear nato is obsolete. that's horrifying. you don't hear him saying nato is very important to me. i brought this point up yesterday for the reason why "the new york times" is bringing it up today. anyone that goes into that times of london interview or other interviews with a lot of disjointed statements and though thoughts, trying to glean u.s. foreign policy from those interviews is taking their own professional life into their own hands because i just don't think -- there's a lot of

screeching and whining and crying and gnashing of teeth, i don't think you can do that from tweets and these disjointed interviews where a lot of times there aren't even complete thoughts. >> that's why the whole article, even then when you read the whole article, natuo's alliance is not news, saying that makes headlines. it leaves european allies and we should be strengthening and solidifying at this stage our allies, we need our allies. instead he, again, seems to be picking a fight with them. yes, a lot of nato countries don't pay what they should pay. balkan states don't. they are working on getting to it. they should. they will get it in there. but so we'll see. what's remarkable, the dollar strong, markets strong, the markets seem to hate uncertainty. >> that's what i think he

projects the most. >> uncertainty. >> yes. maybe the markets aren't responding, but i think the world is. joining us from washington, former cia -- former director of the cia and nsa and principal of chertoff group, retired general michael hayden. >> general, that's the headline in the "new york times," why i'm bringing up these quotes. you can basically pick a side. what does trump say about nato. here is what he says negatively about nato. here is what he says positively about nato. what about merkel. back and forth in the headlines, weary world, trump remabs unknown. we're talking about the power of words. the current president's red line statement reverberated across the globe. how dangerous is this to have such a lack of message discipline coming from the incoming president? >> well, joe, it's quite remarkable. frankly what the german chancellor said yesterday in

response to those interviews is pay no attention to what the president-elect of the united states says. frankly, i'm in that club now too, joe. i'm waiting for kickoff. let's get to friday, get on the field and start doing real things and push all the trash talk off to the side and get on with the business of governing. >> well, you have to wonder what's behind it, katty, because i feel like in many ways, these shiny objects put a distance between trump and the press in terms of having to go deep on anything. i'd like to see him go deep on policy, go deep on nato, go deep on issues pertaining to race and women and hear what he really believes if there is anything. >> i think that's the holding pattern we're in. everybody is in the holding pattern. i'm not sure given how little has changed between election day and now whether we're going to get that much more clarity.

>> probably not. >> when he becomes president. that's clearly what the world is waiting for. general hayden, i was just wanting to ask you whether you think there is a -- whether you think there is a clarity in donald trump's world view. seems to me one thing he has been consistent, that is that america has been paying too much for its allies. he does believe that it's time for -- i think, you know, he has a strong case to make. europe can't keep dialing 911 america and not pay the bill because that's what's happened for the last half century. i wonder whether you think once president-elect trump becomes president trump, are we really in for fundamental realigning for post second world war alliances in the way some european countries seem to think we might be? >> katty, i think we might. frankly play it all the way back to that letter a whole bunch of folks signed last summer, that's

fundamentally what this is about. those republican internationalists that signed those letters fundamentally believe that united states has done a good thing over the last 75 years, frankly bearing a bit of an unfair share of the burden. doing things for the good of the order rather than just nar otherly defined self-national interest. and i think the president-elect wants to overturn that equation. that is, in fact, a fundamental -- excuse me, fundamental realignment. you saw your report from davos. you saw the chinese leader kind of moving into that space that appears to be being vacated by americans. >> that is something we talk about, on the "today" show 1980s, japan ripping us off, devaluing currency, dumping automobiles over here, putting huge tariffs on automobiles over there. it's just changed from japan to

saudi arabia to china right now. so this really is, general, really is a consistent world view donald trump has had, sort of america first world view for 40 years now. >> i think so, joe. that's the unifying principle. now, the expressions of that have been very erratic and difficult to predict and it's hard to create this back to that world view. fundamentally, that's the best indicator, best predictor of american action. frankly that makes a lot of europeans, a lot of asians and frankly a lot of americans like me very nervous. general, there's been a lot of shuffling around and back and forth and twitter wars and everything else since donald trump was elected. i think everyone has failed along the way to an extent trying to understand this new relationship between the media and president-elect and what exactly his views are. what can donald trump himself do

with his speech on inauguration day to reset and move forward in a presidential way? i don't mean presidential in a generic term like presidents past. he'll never be like that. we want a president. we want a leader. what can he do to do that. >> coherence, integration, put the phone away. don't try to do this in 140 characters, create a unified vision. communicate that to the american people. >> i think to what he's talking about, i do think there is a broad framework, which is america first. i think what he would say if he were sitting here, he said obsolete before. that wasn't actually news to a lot of us, talked about nato being obsolete before. the question is is he applying leverage on nato so they pay up, one of the gripes president obama had about nato partners as well, other presidents have had or is he truly trying to pull out. i think that's where the mixed signals start to get dangerous.

in terms of where he is, the other question i have for him is how much does he see himself as sort of a global leader of this nationalistic movement, which you do see spreading throughout europe with profound consequences. what he talked about with eu is what a lot of people say with eu. dynamics here, unfolding in britain, germany, france, the question is how much does he want to be a leader of that movement? >> general, it seems to me, based on what we've seen and with donald trump over the past 40 years, everything he's doing right now is an opening bid. it an opening bid for nato kungs to pay up. an bid for china. even showed his hand when somebody said you're going to use 40, 45% tariffs. he sa he said, no, basically said during the campaign, that's just my opening statement, my opening line. seems like everything right now

is being used for leverage across all parts of the globe. >> joe, that's a source of confusion. people don't know whether this is inherently tactical to get a better deal within the broad current structure or restructuring of the current world order. let me pick up on a point that jim just made. he's saying america first, but his commentary in those interview in the last couple of days actually feed european populist movements as well. so he is undermining internationalists in europe as well and then suggests this is all about a fundamental restructuring rather than just a better deal for americans within the current structure. >> also when you put vladimir putin, katty, on the same level with angela merkel, obviously that is a radical restructuring

since '45 to now. >> and the kind of thing that makes america's allies frankly at the moment wring their hands in despair about what is actually going to come out of this white house. is that seriously what he means or angela merkel is a great leader and strong. a quick question to general hayden. there seems to be some disagreement around the table about the value and potential risk taking on china. we heard jinping speaking in davos earlier as forcefully as the president-elect seems to be wanting to do. does it lead to a healthy shake-up in the relationship or are there potential and serious down sides? what do you think? >> obviously there are down sides, katty. frankly the chinese over the past several years have been acting, from my point of view, very unchinese. my last couple of jobs i had insight how they thought strategically. frankly, it was a thing to behold. patient, strategic, nuanced.

now the chinese over the past several years have been very nationalistic, very much pushing outward. i think they are doing it because the legitimacy of the party is a bit threatened by the slowing down of economic progress. so in that sense, pushing back against chinese i think is a good thing. but katty, i think in every speech i make with regard to china with a sentence that china is not an enemy of the united states of america and there aren't any good reasons for china to become an enemy of the united states. >> general michael hayden, thank you very much, once again, for being on the show this morning. >> thank you. still ahead chairman of the armed services committee republican senator john mccain joins us. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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cnbc reports that today carmaker general motors will announce a $1 billion investment

in its u.s. plants, expected to create 1,000 jobs. the move comes in the wake of criticism from donald trump earlier this month on the news the company would be building cars in mexico. the president-elect threatened the automaker with a major border tax if they did not move production to u.s. soil. according to cnbc sources, the investment and new jobs have been in the works for some time. >> yeah, whatever. see, there's a great example, though. think about it. here is an example where the tweets work. think about it, rick. you're running lockheed and trump starts tweeting that you're overcharging for the f-35 and your stock goes down a couple billion dollars. that sends a chill -- like it or hate it, that sends a chill through the rest of corporate america, you don't want this guy tweeting about you sending jobs to other countries. >> no. it speaks to the way trump will

govern. he's not an ideologue. we can't predict he has underlying government policy he's going to follow on free trade, on immigration, he's a populist. >> right. >> attacking lockheed martin for overcharging f-35, what they have done, seems like a lot of money, is a very popular issue. >> same with gm. >> meanwhile in interview published with "build" trump criticized bmw and jocks wagon for for the producing more cars in the u.s. promising when he's in office every car that comes into the country will face a 35% tax. stocks of both bmw and volkswagen took a hit following the remarks. bmw notes their biggest factory is in south carolina and says they are committed to building a new plant in mexico which will sell cars globally. >> that south carolina plant and the relationship between bmw and south carolina has been

remarkable over the past several decades. vw stock went down. >> did it really? >> a lot. >> coming up, we're following developments from london where british prime minister theresa may is detailing her brexit plan. we'll monitor what she says for you. that's happening right now. plus when hope and change meets washington. >> as you made the case for re-election, the man who once promised to transcend differences now emphasized them. >> if i said the sky was blue, they said no. if i said there were fish in the sea, they said no. they figured if obama fails, then we win. >> a new frontline documentary examines the rise of political anger in america from president obama's tenure to the rise of donald trump. we'll talk to the filmmaker straight ahead on "morning joe." that college experience that i had. the classes,

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>> swearing hard-liners on russia, russia, russia -- >> ladies and gentlemen i'd like to make this very clear whose in charge. thank you for your attention. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday january 17th. >> so i'm looking at some of these poll numbers i haven't been looking at closely. of course we've heard about the gallup poll. >> yeah. >> this is the impact of the tweets and battles, trump is up to 45, 46%. forty what percent in total, 47, 48% maybe? anyway, mid-40s at least. so quinnipiac poll had him at 37% approval. gallup poll has him at 40%. this gallup poll has him -- more

americans disapprove of his transition than anybody since they have been doing this. "washington post" said 40% approval rating. on average quinnipiac and "washington post" and gallup, he's in the high 30s. nbc news coming out with a poll later today. but again, the crazy thing is that most of these wounds are self-inflicted. so again, a fight -- not one fight rfr day but ten fights every day. >> perfect for this conversation along with bbc katty kay and co-founder jim vandehei and rick tyler, we have political correspondent kasie hunt and "new york times" reporter

yamiche. it's going to start hurting him at the beginning of his presidency if there's not a pivot or shift to something that makes people feel like he's president. >> no doubt, rick, i'm sure you look back in history you can see this. every president's numbers go up during the transition. if he was at 45, 46, 47%, a smooth transition, a disciplined transition where he wasn't picking fights. >> or engaging. >> there's no doubt he would be at least in the 50s in his approval rating. now he's in the high 30s, low 40s. >> right. the transition is sort of a gimme. start to experience honeymoon administration, people did elect you, they wanted change, talk about all the things changing, lost somewhere upward of nine points. the reason that's important, joe, when you want to implement

legislative agenda, strategy, you want behind you because congress reacts more to constituents than announcements of incoming president. unless he has overwhelming -- like welfare reform a rally cry in 1990s, democrats voted for it, not because they wanted to but because constituents demanded. unless you have backing, you have big things to move. >> big things about donald trump when they learn what leader he will be, the last guy in the room, keep people guessing, we know that. we also know he is the kind of guy when all the chips are down and everything is crashing to a horrible end, he comes up fighting somehow. i'm just not sure how that kind of formula fits in a presidency, as the leader of the free world. >> problem is, he was fighting when things were up.

he had just been elected president of the united states. what it requires now, jim vandehei is restraint. it requires when civil rights leader is out of line according to david axelrod and democratic senato senators, you let that pass. you let david axelrod say that. when cia directors -- you don't pick fights. >> retweet david. >> it seems to me his instinct is always to fight. it helped him win the republican primary. but i've said it again, his concerns now are not ben carson and ted cruz. they are angela merkel and the leaders in europe. >> a complicated situation. >> looking to him for guidance. >> they believe there's always going to be confrontation. but look at the recount for bush

and gore. even after that, the protest on the street in the transition bush in the 60s was able to get democrats to work for him. what worked for him, twitter a habit was extraordinarily effective running against flawed democratic candidate and running narrowly. everyone thought he was going to instantaneously change, everyone that knows him knows that's not doing to happen. the question is with time and poll numbers this low, can he make an adjustment. this is a year of habits. every time someone says don't do that, he says, look, you said don't do that and i became president. >> that is the problem that every president faces. >> right. >> every president that first gets elected -- >> they think they are the only one. >> they think they are the first elect. >> like having a baby, we think we're the only ones. >> i said for years, everybody

thinks they are the first to get elected. barack obama's team, you couldn't tell them anything because they were the first that ever did that. >> yup. >> george w. bush's team, it's the same. they always thought they were the first to do it. kasie hunt, now it's donald tru trump. especially when you're like barack obama or ronald reagan or jimmy carter and somebody at the beginning the establishment says -- >> a peanut farmer, the actor. >> no way. then you win despite all the experts being wrong, you go into the white house and make the mistake of thinking all those experts are always going to be wrong. >> it can breed arrogance, too, joe. remember when barack obama was elected, it was a huge change election. he was going to come in, upend how everything worked in washington. that's what voters had demanded. sounds a little bit familiar to what happened this time. president obama got here and ran straight headlong into congress. he got about two years to do big

things he wanted. it picked health care and soured the entire thing after that. at the end of the day he's walking away with people on capitol hill remembering him as somebody who didn't really want to bother to work with them all that often. i think donald trump is now facing this very steep learning curve especially with how things get done on capitol hill. he's the art of the deal guy, the big picture guy. he wants big picture ideas to sell, jim vandehei mentioned this issue in tax reform. it's very important to speaker ryan. it's very hard to explain. that's what donald trump doesn't like about it. he doesn't understand why he has to do this complicated policy maneuver when he could just in this case slap a tariff on a foreign country and be able to very easily explain that. i'm interested to see how he evolves on that point. >> speaking of paul ryan, here is another example. you're not able -- this is not trump tower, and you're not the ceo that everybody bows to.

paul ryan put out a tweet you guys are reporting -- paul ryan talked to mike allen and what did he say about nato? >> he praised it. he said it's essential to u.s. security. he also took some issue with how president-elect trump has been talking about how you clamp down on drug pricing. so it's your point. like numbers are leverage. he's a leverage guy. if he wants, he can probably get whatever he wants with these bills if you're at 60%. paul ryan, mitch mcconnell, republican senators, many think they should be president themselves are going to be much less likely to work with him if they feel he's operating from a position of weakness. >> you know what every one of them is reading "washington post," a red banner headline now saying donald trump will enter the white house the least popular president in over four decades. >> so then you start remaking your calculations, right? if you come in with a whole wind

behind you and supporters and voters behind you as well, that's a very different proposition from coming in and feeling that support is not there in terms of members of congress around you. i think there's also something about donald trump -- you talked about everyone comes in and wants to do it different, donald trump above everybody else wanted to do it new. he wanted to be a different president. he wants to tweet, be pugili pugilistic. the inauguration, this is a scaled down inauguration, the pomp and circumstance of the office. he may be making a miscalculation. the american public, you have this office. they still want a president. they still want somebody who embraces some of that grown-up highbrow above it all concept of i am the leader of this country. in his tweets donald trump is not doing that. he's undermining -- >> he's picking up the --

>> he has overwhelmed even some of his most ardent supporters. you cannot pick six fights in a day over the course of several weeks without exhausting -- >> congressman lewis calling donald trump an illegitimate president and donald trump's pointed response on twitter was the backdrop to many of the events yesterday in honor of martin luther king day. the congressman spoke at a breakfast in miami -- >> you know who introduced him. >> who is that? >> little marco. >> of course he did. they loved it. >> you know who is holding rex tillerson's nomination right now? >> little marco. >> maybe he's going to stop calling him little marco, right? >> why don't we take a listen. >> i hope these young men will understand today you are sitting in the presence of a true american hero with congressman lewis, one of the most

extraordinary figures in america. so when we think about courage in the 21st century, courage is not being unafraid to have a negative story written about you or have people say nasty things about you, courage is the willingness to stand up for your principles no matter what the consequences may be. >> you know, mika, after barnicle started doing this show, ted kennedy called him one time and said, barnicle, you look like -- he goes, you look like you just fell into a tub of butter, which was his way of saying you lucky dog. right? marco rubio looked like he just fell into a tub of butter. >> little -- i'll give you little. i have a vote. i have a vote for you. >> i've got a vote and a voice. >> and it's a vote no. >> yamiche, this is one thing the president-elect is going to be learning as he goes forward.

insult lindsey graham, that's fine, but there will be a committee vote where lindsey graham will determine whether you succeed or fail. marco rubio, the same. it gets much more complicated moving forward at this point, doesn't it? >> much more complicated. i think what donald trump is going to learn, when you attack people like john lewis, there's going to be a rallying cry that's going to the heart of your whole constituency. in this case it's african-americans. he only got 8% of african-american votes. people are very wary of donald trump, not just what do you have to lose, people felt derogatory during the campaign but also he then went and appointed steve bannon, chief strategist, who people might feel like would be bringing nationalist ideas into the white house. then he nominated jeff sessions to be the attorney general who joked naacp was un-american and said kkk might be okay if they

weren't smoking pot. this goes to the heart of his presidency and ideas, if he doesn't hold back he's going to be alienating further a constituency that didn't trust him in the first place. >> in many cases unnecessarily. back at trump tower president-elect fond andrew young, the former u.n. ambassador and colleague of martin luther king. young assured trump lewis is a good man and a saint. adding, quote, he's kind of disillusioned right now but he'll come back. he met with martin luther king's son. he committed to work with them, ensured the right to vote. >> did he allay your concerns he will be a president for all people, black and white? >> well, certainly he said that he is going to represent americans. he said that over and over again. i think we will continue to evaluate that. i think that the nation

supports, i believe that's his intent. i think also we have to consistently engage with pressure, public pressure. it doesn't happen automatically. my father and his team understood that, did that. i think americans are prepared to do that. >> isn't there something that cuts to your core when you hear president-elect refer to john lewis as all talk and no action? nothing can be further from the truth, is that right? john lewis is not all talk and no action. >> absolutely i would say john lewis has demonstrated he's action. as i said, things get said on both sides in the heat of emotion. at some point this nation, we've got to move forward. we can't stay -- people are literally probably dying. we need to be talking about how do we feed people, how do we clothe people, how do we create the best education system. that's what we need to be focused on. >> that was a great answer coming off of a speech. i don't know if the reporter was actually given a platform or not, microphone. you all were both asking the same question. >> i'm just going to say it, ask

the question straight. >> right. i was going to say the lawyer -- leading questions repeatedly. >> argue -- >> yeah. yeah. >> anyway. >> troubling. >> martin luther king iii once again is saying i think -- speaking for all of america. come on, stop. let's figure out how to work together. if we can't work together, okay, but let's do it respectfully. resist if you want to resist but let's figure out how everybody moves this country forward instead of the fighting back and forth. >> still many democratic lawmakers are taking congressman lewis's cue saying they will also sit out the inauguration. more than 30 democratic congressmen and women now say they will skip trump's swearing in. lewis said in that "meet the press" interview this would be the first time he would miss the

event. but "the washington post" reported in 2001 that some members of the black caucus decided to boycott inauguration day. john lewis, for instance, spent the day in his atlanta district. he thought it would be hypocritical to attend bush's swearing in because he doesn't believe bush is the true elected president. so was john lewis -- did he forget when he said he has never missed an inauguration? i'm just quoting him. okay. everyone calm down. i'm just quoting him. he said he never missed him. >> it was 2001. >> he questioned trump's presidency's legitimacy. >> do you remember what you said in 2001. >> he questioned bush's presidency's legitimacy and skipped the inauguration. >> you wouldn't forget if you missed an inauguration. you would remember if you didn't go to an inauguration and why you didn't go. >> let's be fair. let's look at both sides of the story here. this argument is bad. lewis started it badly and trump engaged in it when he shouldn't

have. just retweet david axelrod and be done with it. i'm just curious because i've gotten yesterday a little bit of criticism for both sides in this. you would have thought my phone exploded on twitter because i said anything questioning -- >> yamiche, before you answer the question, would you tell her not to look. let's start with what's happening on capitol hill, who is going to attend, who is not going to attend. >> i was on the phone with a lot of members from the congressional black caucus and congressional caucus and a lot are saying they are not attending because of all sorts of reasons. one because they fundamentally disagree with trump's policies but also because they disagree -- they are calling into question the idea that russia might have helped him. i want to just add what martin luther king iii said there. when i was doing my reporting for the story that i wrote about john lewis versus donald trump, a lot of people were telling me,

yes, i'm very upset about john lewis being called all talk and no action but i also don't want to be diverted from the real issues at hand. the real issues at hand are voting rights, keeping people's health care. what you hear there is frustration that, yes, he's really upset that an icon was attacked in this way but also he's saying, you know what, we need to not be diverted by these twitter battles. that's going to be a problem with a lot of the democrats, they are going to have to pick and choose, are we going into this ethernet and go in and focus on all these tweets that donald trump is never going to stop doing or are we going to focus on the policies at hand. >> like elijah cummings,ed with him on yesterday. donald trump, call him but then call me and let's start working together on drug prices. it does seem like that is a calculation that a lot of democrats are making. i may disagree with him on a lot of different points but we can

work with him on certain things that will help our constituents. >> exactly. so many of these people have real issues and donald trump in some ways sounded like a democrat when he sounded like homelessness, getting people back to work. those are issues i think democrats and republicans really want to agree on. so what they really need, what everyone is going to have to do is figure out this 20-minute news cycle. every minute we have a new scandal or new person he's insulting but in some ways democrats are going to have to, and i would imagine democrats, too, say apart from personality, which donald trump has a lot of, what can we do to actually get things done. >> we know you have to go. thank you for being with us. good to see you. >> kasie, what do you think? >> some of this is geographic. "new york times" reported one in five members are skipping out. so i think to the extent --

>> kasie, i found when we were voting on post offices on monday and i had to fly up from florida for one vote on a post office monday night, i, too, actually protested that. >> i could see that. >> hell no, i will not go. >> i can see that. the feeling right now, i was invited to an off the record kind of happy hour gathering of progressives a few days ago in washington. i walked into the bar, and you would have thought someone had died. people were walking into this bar hugging each other like they haven't seen each other in months. >> that's how willie geist described manhattan the morning after george w. bush was elected. he said zombies walking around midtown. >> you don't feel it as much in new york as you do in d.c., by the way. >> all the clinton people bought houses. >> they have to move. >> i'm sorry, go ahead, kasie. >> no, i mean, so that, i think,

captures how democrats feel about donald trump. it's not -- it is truly apocalyptic. that's how they feel about it. i think a lot of them emotionally don't feel like they want to show up on the day and actually watch it because it would be too much for them. that's how it feels here. >> i have some dear friends, really dear friends who have -- this has hit them emotionally and very personally. and a couple are i won't say suffering depression but they are -- >> down. >> really down about this, really concerned about it. they are concerned about what it says about this country. >> i felt that way about bush getting elected and re-elected and the inauguration really helped. >> i remember you being -- telling me time and again how angry you were. >> at my best friend. >> at george bush's re-election. >> yes. >> it actually caused a divide between you and your best friend. >> right, who made a decision at the last minute i thought was

very wrong. >> i think not tweeting these attacks against people would make an enormous difference. i think the sense of depression -- >> both sides need to do it. >> let's take it out of the social media, i think that could elevate the conversation. >> i want to push back on your suggestion that both sides need to do it. no. when you're president of the united states -- when you're president of the united states you let insults pass. when you're president of the united states you let congressmen, congresswoman, senators, you let them make snippy comments boult you. the great ones do. barack obama let so much slide. >> that's the media. >> george w. bush let so much pass by. >> i agree with that. but let's put it all into context, right? the pretext to illegitimacy was

obama's action with russia. he set up the whole pretext of this is illegitimate and gave congressman lewis pretext and others to follow suit to say we're going to boycott the election based on the fact -- >> i will see your pretext and add pretext. the pretext to that goes back five years when donald trump actually emerged as a political figure. >> that's absolutely right. >> by discrediting barack obama and saying he was an illegitimate -- >> an issue. >> on the person who won. >> the onus always on the person who won. you rise above it. if you're going to be president of the country, you're going to have to work for that. that requires turning other cheek. >> we have to wrap it up. i want to say something. >> say something, mika. >> i've been trying. i wanted to flush it out with yamiche. she was explaining john lewis, i think. she was explaining he's so

frustrated about voting rights and other issues that this was his way of expression and they had to go. why is it that we can explain any democrat and explain a statement that's maybe untrue or inappropriate and explain it away and finally understand and translate for them, and yet we cherry pick trump's statements? that's what i want to know. i'm not a trump supporter, so it's not like -- i just see a real difference here. it seems to me that we are the ones who need to reset as well. we need to look at both sides carefully. you don't ask leading questions about john lewis and make a speech defending john lewis when you're asking a question, too. it is all over the place. read the papers. we decipher democrats and make them sound great and we make republicans sound like complete -- the word we won't use. the word trump used and you brought up nobody should use. it's unbelievable. i saw john lewis's statement,

what he said, the words he said. everyone else is translating for him. on top of it, he missed another inauguration. it's not fair. why are we deciphering for him. >> he is an icon, he is a hero. >> no question about it. both can be true. but everyone gets into the bunker and say we have to defend everything. >> you take office, incredibly elevated exalted position of the president of the united states. elected official, head of state, ceremonial head of state, commander in chief, pile it all in there. that demands a certain standard of behavior. >> i agree. that's his job. i'm talking about ours. >> and our job, the press's job, probably should have been talk about how john lewis is a hero for our time and is a saint as andrew young said.

and yet what he said about trump being illegitimate because russia was actually not born out by the facts, objective facts. >> not translated -- >> and what he said about this being the first time he's ever missed an inauguration, because he sees donald trump as illegitimate is not born out by the facts. so donald trump needs to be quiet, but the press needs to do its job and stop asking windy questions. >> erasing the past when they feel like it. >> as i've been saying time and time again, they have to provide proper context. it's something you can read all the papers. they are miserable providing proper context. yesterday's "times" interview, "london times" interview, how that was summarized, it was preposterous. they cherry picked. there's a lot of cherry picking. the press needs to be their jobs and stop writing sanctimonious op-eds about what the press

should do. no, just do your -- >> best. >> blanking job. just give people the facts and stop feeling like you are on a crusade. do your job. report the facts. provide context. provide his ttory. let voters decide. they can't lift the hammer. they are proving themselves incapable of doing it. >> that's a whole other issue. >> john mccain up next. we'll be right back. >> no, actually in an hour. tiki barber running a barber shop? yes!!! surprising. yes!!! what's not surprising? how much money david saved by switching to geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more.

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paef the trump cabinet confirmation process picks up again on capitol hill. joining us hallie jackson. what can we expect? >> mika, let's get the highlights. today we have donald trump's

pick betsy devos to lead education department. it's the most controversial confirmation hearing of the day. she's a prominent republican donor, reports school choice, voucher programs, but she's come under fire from teachers union for being in their view anti-public education. trump teamworking to fight off this criticism early. official tells me devos is a disrupter. they believe she's uniquely qualified for the job. just this morning out with an op-ed supporting devos for the pick. you've seen mitt romney come out in support of her, too. potential fireworks for her. just to mention lieutenant congressmen to lead interior department. a former navy s.e.a.l. who at one point led seal team six. ler start to heat up. tom price for hhs hearing. that is expected to be intense and grueling affair.

expect democrats to go after him on his plan initially what he would do to try to replace affordable care act. thursday steve munchin, wall street guy up to lead treasury debt and he's expected to be a little controversial. you've got names like nikki haley, scott pruitt, but devos and munchin, headlines for the we week. >> they brought in to work with mnuchin. they are going to lose somebody, interesting to see if it is him, tries to fight for him. price, the stories, price could be in some trouble because of the insider trading allegation. >> so what is the story there that price helped pass

legislation. >> precisely he invested in the stock, passed legislation and benefited from it. after that story came out, price said, wait, he didn't know big about that specific investment of it was done by his broker without his knowledge. >> how does that happen? >> remember what happened to tom daschle. >> no, how does that happen? >> if you're a member of congress and voting on legislation, it shouldn't happen. >> no, it should not. >> your broker should -- >> you set up fire walls so it doesn't happen by not investing. >> lay off health care stocks. listen to my proposal, legislation -- >> that's what you do. you say lay off health care stocks and lay off other stocks where i'm going to have disproportionate -- >> a pattern, i don't know if it's a pattern yet. >> a couple, the journeyman has

done some reporting earlier. it happens every time with members of congress. it's hubris and it's going to cost somebody something in the lack of vetting. it's going to backfire. they had to move quickly on cabinet picks, haven't been officially vetted. people inside trump world would tell you that. you're going to have surprises and there could be more surprises out front. coming up a new look frontline documentary tracing roots of the gridlock gripping the nation of that's next on "morning joe." (burke) at farmers, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything.

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not happy that his message didn't seem to get through. he is dispirited. and he says to his senior staff, i've lost my narrative. i have no narrative, which for a guy like barack obama is like saying i've lost my way. i've lost my identity. i'm not having a conversation with the american people anymore. >> a look there at the new four-hour two-night miniseries from frontline entitled divide states of america. producer and director michael

kirk joins us now along with news an finance anchor from yahoo! thank you for both being on board. >> ronald reagan after six years lost his narrative, lost his connection with the american people. this happened remarkably early in barack obama's -- why. >> lost stimulus, bipartisanship he hoped to gain. here is a guy that comes in on the change candidate, transformative. all of his staff believed, as you guys were talking about earlier. he runs into the republican wall almost immediately and thought with a certain amount of hubris he was going to do just enough to get him on his side without a single republican vote he jams through the -- >> i remember that super bowl party he was saying to, i think, jon kyl, we won, you lost. >> exactly. >> the ap wrote how shocking how

quickly it turned. >> he says in our film that elections have consequences. everybody who was with him in the beginning said they walked up to him, especially republicans, listen, everybody, elections have consequences. one of the things i think you'll learn if you manage to watch all four hours of the program over the next two nights, the first lesson barack obama learned was that it's a polarized world in washington. i think he thought he could bring them all together just on the strength of his first speech in 2004 and remarkable run through the election against john mccain. what he discovered was it was a polarized environment. the new president, who we also follow his emergence, donald trump, he knew it was polarized. in fact, it was his bread and butter and has been all the way through so far. >> somebody close to barack obama, who worked with him first term said, unlike any other candidate, barack obama believed he was right.

he would basically stake a flag down and keep giving a speech waiting for everybody to come to him. there was not in his mind, in his makeup, the sort of give-and-take that lbj, fdr, ronald reagan give-and-take. >> definitely not in his personality. you don't see any indication of it. all the people who love him and are closest to him still believe that he had the professor idea. he had all the right ideas but none of the execution and it really wasn't going to be possible after they were talking earlier in the program about the democrats all being together with long faces. republicans got together at a steakhouse on capitol hill the night of the inauguration and said a plan, just say no plan. >> admits on camera. >> talks about in some details and other members of the party. everybody was there at one time or another. they decided to say no to obama. obama didn't seem to want to know that. i a talked to one of them the

inside people, when did you guys first know about the republican dinner. he said when i saw it on your program two years later. >> oh, boy. >> somebody else who worked with him in his first term was my husband, worked very closely with him on health care. in particular a lot of people now looking back saying he put too many eggs in this basket, focusing just on health care and may have lost a lot of political capital. looking back, what does the president say about that and how does he view his focus and any sort of isolation that may have come from going forward even when people within his own party saying maybe we should not do this so soon. >> remarkable moment talking to tim geithner, the president just decided to take the side of the banks against rising tide of anger in america, allowed bonuses for bankers. geithner said we're on the precipice, we're going down, mr. president. you've got to do whatever you can to save the american and world economy. obama agrees fl then he turns

sternly to geithner and says, i don't want to just put my approval rating on the wall and polish it up for eight more years. i want to do something remarkable. and geithner says, not now. obama says, i want to do health care. i want to take the biggest issue we can get as hard as it would be all the political people surrounding him say absolutely not. he goes forward-looking for that legacy issue, which we all know is still being argued about. why? not a single republican voted. >> quickly valerie jarrett's discussion with barack obama the night health care passes. >> she says to him, mr. president, what was the biggest thing of all, winning or this. >> he said we won so we do this. this is what change is all about. you're going to see a different kind of change with the next president. >> maybe not with that. frontline's divided states of america premiers tonight and tomorrow on pbs 9:00 eastern and online pbs.org/frontline.

michael kirk, thank you so much. >> i'm excited. that's going to be great. still ahead this morning top ranking congressman on foreign affairs ed royce. "morning joe" back in a moment. ♪ looking for clear answers for your retirement plan? start here. or here. even here. and definitely here. at fidelity, we're available 24/7 to make retirement planning simpler. we let you know where you stand, so when it comes to your retirement plan,

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now the chinese over the past several years have been very nationalistic, very much pushing outward. i think they're doing it because the legitimacy of the party is a bit threatened by the slowing down of economic progress. so in that sense, some pushing back against the chinese i think is a good thing. but i begin every speech i make with regard to china with the sentence, china is not an enemy of the united states of america and there aren't any good reasons for china to become an enemy of the united states. >> that was former director of the cia and nsa, retired general michael hayden earlier on "morning joe." and joining us now chairman of the house, foreign affairs committee, congressman ed royce

from california. >> great to have you here. we have some diplomats that watch this show and actually some people from other countries that watch the show. so as the chairman of the foreign affairs committee i'm going to ask you a couple of questions. is nato still important to the united states? >> nato is important to our security and the security of our allies. >> how important? >> i think it's critical but i think it's also critical our nato allies step up and pay their part of the freight. >> how important of an ally is germany? is angela merkel? >> germany is a very conversations subsequential ally to the united states. >> you would say obviously you have more trust in angela merkel than vladimir putin? >> correct. >> you would not put them on the same level. >> these are a lot of hard questions. >> does -- should it matter to the united states whether the european union continues or not?

>> the european union, i think the european union will continue. >> is that -- >> but for the united states -- i think we generally leave to the member states like britain their own calculus in terms of what's in their national interest. >> yeah. >> speaking of britain, teresa may just earlier this morning announced what in people obviously knew, and that's the separation between the eu and britain and known as brexit, saying they would not be contributing to the eu budget going forward. what happens to the eu, especially in light of statements angela merkel made over the weekend, following donald trump saying we're on our own? >> my guess is continental europe continues in the eu. my suspicion is that because of british attitudes especially with respect of failure to assimilate especially with immigration from north africa and the middle east that has this islamist tendency, at least

among a part of that immigration, that is seemed to me when i was in london to be what was driving the debate, was how do we more effectively assimilate those who are coming in and we cannot control our sovereignty or our border security on this issue. >> islamist intense difficult? >> the radical islamist conversions that are occurring in britain. indigenous muslim culture in north africa and the middle east is different than this radical jihadist concept that is growing. but this tendency for those who come from the middle east to harbor or to have embraced a more radical interpretation has led to difficulties with respect to britain's ability to aculturete to their tolerance. ed hussein who wrote the book "islamist" as an example of on out ream to try to explain to the muslim community why it is

necessary to confront and to deter this -- these conversions. and this is a great problem right now in london. >> congressman, after world war ii rebuilt our enemies an allies alike, part of our unfair burden of nato is stability. do you agree? >> stability but it comes at the cost obviously of a greater -- for greater -- >> how much by nato? >> it comes at a cost at a greater burden on our economy, on our ability to produce jobs. own you have a disparity between what we contribute and what europe contributes. and there's long been a desire to figure out some kind of leverage. we've tried different kind of job-owning strategies to get the europeans to step it up and to pay their share on this. i think what we're seeing now is another concerted effort to do that. >> all right. >> chairman of the house, foreign affairs committee ed

royce. thank you very much. >> are you going to be at the inauguration? >> i will, indeed. still ahead, donald trump fights a war on multiple fronts. the cia director, car companies, the media, democrats and republicans in congress just to name a few, and now there are signs it's affecting his poll numbers. just days after he takes office. we're going to discuss that. and we'll talk to someone who knows what it's like to spar with donald trump, senator john mccain joins us live straight ahead on "morning joe." >> at the end of the day donald trumps come and go, but injustice will still be here. we got to have the courage to cross some lines, to meet people who have different ideological bets, we can't keep not talking to each other. ♪

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♪ good morning. it's tuesday, january 17th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset we have washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay. >> katty is feeling better. >> i hope she's okay. >> co-founder -- >> there was an massive outpouring, in fact, on twitter for katty. it was a bit like looking to see if queen elizabeth was going to recover. >> i have no idea what you're talking about but that's a good way to start. cofounder of axeias. >> new tie. >> new tie, new job. >> former communications director for ted cruz's

presidential campaign now msnbc political contributor rick tile we're us at the table as well. good to have you all on poured board. h nis final days john brennan is firing back at president-elect donald trump's for repugnant comments. his suggestion of lifting sanctions against russia was baz he didn't think he had a full understanding of russia's capabilities of actions around the world. trump responded as what he sees the reason foreign policy blunders saying he couldn't do much worse after looking at syria, crimea, ukraine, and the build-up of russian nukes. asking about brennan was this the leaker of fake news? here we go. last night brennan denied trump's allegations to the wall street junl saying, quote, i think it's the right and indeed the responsibility of the president of the united states to challenge the conclusions of the intelligence community. we don't expect our information

and our assessments to be swallowed whole. it's when there are allegations made about leaking or dishonesty or a lack of integrity, that's where i think the line is crossed. tell the families of those 117 cia officers who are forever memorialized on our wall of honor that their loved ones who gave their lives were akin to nazis. tell the cia officers who are serving in harm's away right now and their families who are worried about them that they are akin to nazi germany. i found that to be very repugnant and i will forever stand up for the integrity and patriotism of my officers who have done much over the years to sacrifice for their fellow citizens. >> very personal very fast. >> but that was pretty profound statements. >> well, except for the fact that i don't think donald trump -- and i don't think anybody in the media ever confused donald trump making his slanderous statements about anybody other than brennan and

the people he thought were leaking the documents. it wasn't about the 117 cia officer or the other officers around the world. >> i disagree. i think there's been some tension with the intelligence community that was unnecessary. >> right. >> a bad start. and that's on trump. >> it is. they were repugnant statements. no doubt about it. i just wonder if this is, again, something else that i wish everybody would just be quiet. >> you just never need to use the phrase nazi germany. if you are running for high office, if you're about to take high office, delete it. it's not necessary. >> if only the media have followed that because that really is a very good -- that is a very good guideline to follow. unfortunately the media has not followed it over the past several months in referencing donald trump and fascism and "the new york times" has had one reference after the other. even in their art section. i agree. i agree that what donald trump did was repugnant. i wish somebody could wrestle

his phone away from him and i wish other people wouldn't respond. i just -- there's just -- i don't know. this sh -- >> we can't say -- just to put it all out on the table, i think you would agree with that. we can say congressman john lewis started it and he had a right to respond when his presidency was questioned or the cia started it or trump started it and the cia had a right to respond. i mean, of course you have a right to respond to egregious statements. they shouldn't be made. >> the egregious -- >> whether it's lewis, sorry, sorry, with so much due respect. i mean, unless everybody at this table thinks this president is illegitimate that's probably not the most constructive thing to say. as for trump, and the way he treated the intelligence community which are probably the people he needs the most in terms of his safety and security and our safety and security, i just think he's handled them like toys. >> people need to get back into their corners and i think

there's even a growing understanding, katty, over at trump tower that donald trump is watching his poll numbers, especially with independents plummet, specifically because of his use of twitter. he thinks this is such a great powerful device to use. >> it is. >> he said in his interviews he's going to carry on doing it. >> but it's hurting him. his poll numbers are not going up. you look t the gallop poll, he's getting gutted among independents because of this reckless language. >> i do think the problem with twitter, particularly when it comes to the area of foreign policy, is it's far too simplistic and blunt a tool in 140 characters to deal with the nuanced complicated world that we live in. you can cause problems. i think americans are looking at the president-elect and thinking on friday he's going to be president and what's the tone he's going to set. is it going to be presidential because that's not what comes out of twitter. donald trump i say i don't care about whether my tone is

presidential because my 20 million twitter followers are loving what they hear from me on twitter. that's not the point. the point is there are a lot of other people around the country and his poll numbers are tanking and then it's hard to get them back up again. >> that's what he cares about. he does care about the numbers. he doesn't care, i think, if unfortunately if european allies are spooked. he does care about the poll numbers. and you know, jim, i don't know if donald trump -- there's no reason why he would know this really, sitting president. you know, with poll numbers, what goes up must come down. what goes up always comes down. the opposite is not true. you get down in the 30s, i've seen politicians in the 30s and you can ask george w. bush, you could ask rick scott in florida, chris christie, when you get down in the 30s sometimes it doesn't rise back up. and i think he's doing a lot of things. he's exhausting the american public before the day he's sworn

in to president of the united states. >> right. >> and he's used the time that other presidents have used to see their poll numbers go up, he's had his drop pretty dramatically among independents. >> particularly when they have such ambitions. they really do want to do health care reform and tax reform and infrastructure bill all in a couple of months. if you just look at the last 72 hours, it's either just chaos and confusion in terms of he sent mixed signals on whether or not they want the border adjustment being part of tax reform. republicans on the hill thought he did and now he told "the journal" he doesn't. comments to "washington post" does he really want coverage for every single american, that would be different than the plan that republicans were putting together. he seemed to suggest in an over sea interview he sees putin and merkels a equals, allies. to a lo t of people just a lot of confusion at a time when they're scrambling to put together a white house. i don't think -- you talk to

people over there all the time. they were left with a s doier from chris christie that had almost nothing in it, put to the a white house in a couple of months, far behind in undersecretaries and all the positions you need to have to run a government. and it's show time in two days. >> exhaustion is the word. >> it is exhaustion. we all feel exhausted and we haven't even gotten to friday. >> when you're president of the united states, one of the reasons ronald reagan was successful for six years was because he was easy to handle for the american people. he was their grandfather. he was -- i'll do a show business reference because it's the truth. donald trump thinks it's showbiz, it's showbiz. there's a reason why johnny carson was extraordinary for 40 years, carson came into people's bedrooms at 11:30 at night and he did not exhaust them. >> right. >> he knew how to -- he always talked about winning in the

central time zone. some people might be anded. no. when you exhaust somebody every day at some point they turn you off. they always -- >> at some point it's not a powerful tool anymore. >> right. they always turn, even the best communicators off. the american people turned ronald reagan off by the fall of 1986. >> right. you remember in -- >> turned him off. nothing he could say that they would listen to. he ended positively but they turned him off in '86. donald trump this weekend, you're a communication guy. we were talking about no discipline. chaos on john lewis, chaos on nato, chaos on germany, chaos on health care, chaos on the eu, chaos on putin, chaos on merkel. now, you could find mitigating statements on both sides of the divide there but it's just too -- why are you making the american people and the world try to sort through word salad every single day. right now, one, two, three, four, five, six fights that he has going on.

>> anger in a political campaign can work. it worked in 1994 very well. brought the republicans the majority of people angry at government. that's happened here again. you're right, when people -- when the voters become exhausted day after day after day they want that to go away. and with donald trump, to your point, jim, what donald trump can't afford to have is to lose these independents because he needs -- he's abouting as if he has a government mandate and he may very well have. but at the same time, as soon as his poll numbers go down he will lose that mandate and then congress, even republicans, because on trade, for instance, not all republicans are onboard with trade, not all republicans are onboard with the way he's going to replace obamacare. i don't think they're ever going to have -- trump said recently we're going to have repeal and replace almost simultaneously. but that requires a 60-vote margin in the senate. the replace part. not the repeal part. unless you have the country backing you, and he hasn't articulated a vision on any of this. >> great example. the republicans listen to him.

paul ryan listened to him. you know why? incoming president of the united states did well in their communities, 44 -- >> also has a new way of -- >> 45% approval rating. when that's a 36%, 37% approval rating -- and i don't have to see a whole lot of polls if this continues. he will be down in the 30s in the next two to three weeks. no matter what he does. if this continues. then they listen to him a lot less. a lot less. you know that. >> but he has -- what's interesting is he has a different arrow in his quiver that no president has used before and that is this insult tweet fest that he sort of engages? >> but that's -- >> which is driving down his poll numbers. >> right. it is true. >> he says, katty, that it is this gra it -- and it is. how many tens of millions of people can he get a message out to? it is a dream for a politician. >> 4 to 6 million. >> to be able to go overall the networks and the new york times. and he's right. it's like the new york times and

"washington post" without the overhead. get your message out to tens of millions of people. if you use it sparingly and if you use it wisely. but he's exhausting people with all of these fights. and again, the poll numbers show, the independents are starting to run away from him because of it. >> every president has tried to find a new form of mass communication to get over the heads of the press, right? fdr did it, reagan did it successfully. this is just a new extension of that with a new technological tool that he's using. and he's done it very well. if he's creating so much confusion and chaos and noise, how do you then in that environment get through a clear policy proposal and focus on that? that's what you want to do in communications. he wants to health care, you need people focused on health care. there's so much distraction going on around it i don't see in two weeks how he's going the get the headline it is he tweets

the way he's been tweeting to focus on the thing he wants to do. >> it's nonstop. you look at the tweeting. h his tweets about boeing, fantastic, as far as political. 4 billion -- too much. they're going to have to cut it in half. great message. lockheed, getting ripped on the f-35, that works. even with germany, i know the germans hate it but saying, hey, you know what, you want to sell cars in america, you build your plants in america. forget about the -- i'm just talking politically. politically those sort of industrial policy arguments, those economic policies, on twitter, that's a great bullhorn. but there's so much -- as you said, there's so much other nonsense going on. with all of these stupid -- and they are stupid fights, stupid fights are john lewis, stupid fights with the intel community, stupid fights with anybody that says the first -- he's going to be president of the united

states, for god's sake. >> right. >> he doesn't have to fight everybody. >> i think he wants these fights. >> well, you know what -- >> i actually do. >> if he does, he likes approval ratings in the 30s. >> probably shouldn't want that because if you think about it, you're right. like whether you agree with the policy or not he's been -- done more to get companies to change their behavior than a lot of presidents can do in office. and he's actually pretty well poised to do a health care bill that conservatives love, tax reform bill that business loves, train structure bill that i think democrats might love. if you create an atmosphere to your point that you have low favorable ratings and you have your critics trying to one up each other in making a stand against you and that you little by little lose the faith of the republicans on capitol hill, all of those things get exponentially harder. still ahead on dnlg, a report on davos where believe it or not it's china's president who is praising globalization and calling for open trade. plus, right now trump is trading words with john lewis but back

in the primaries it was john mccain, the senator from arizona joins us live next. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. are you getting this? these numbers are off the charts... sir! what's the status? there's a meteor hurtling towards earth. how long until impact? less than a minute. what do you want to do, sir? listen carefully... if we all switch to geico we could save 15% or more on car insurance.

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. china is hitting back against recent comments made by president-elect trump that he may do away with the one china policy. a chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman told reporters yesterday that the policy is, quote, the precondition and political basis for any country having relations with china, add that if used as a bargaining chip they will be opposed by the chinese government and people. this comes after trump told the "wall street journal" last week the one china policy was for -- up for negotiation and also labeling china as currency what any laters. all this servess back grop to the world economic for rim in davos, switzerland, where chinese president xixinping is

speaking this morning. keir simmons, what is the chinese president saying? >> let's just athe a outset that this is a gathering of wealthy of political leaders, media leaders in a swiss ski resort. this is everything that voters rejected in 2016 and that said, mika, i have just sat in the room where those kind of people sat and watched president xi set out his position, if you like, as the new flag bearer for the sxwloe global economy. rebutting donald trump without even mentioning trump by name. saying globalization, mika, is not the cause of the world's problems. at times he was almost patronizing saying at one time china thought that globalization was -- had some doubts about globalization but we learn, he said, that china must have the courage to swim in the vast ocean of global markets if one is afraid, one gets drowned

sooner or later. and he went on to say that everyone around the world should share in the benefits. this is the responsibility that leaders of our times must take on, he said, the people around the world expect nothing less of us. and just to repeat, this is the leader of china. this is the leader of a chinese communist party in europe. the kind of diplomacy that perhaps benjamin franklin would have recognized. he is sending out this story, talking about stability around the world while at the same time china flexing its muscles in the south china sea. >> joe scarborough here. it's funny you say this about a week or two ago, i had a prominent economist in the united states saying that as he goes a across the world now the only true capitalist that he's finding are the chinese leaders. they'll go into a room with these western powers and all this populist talk about

protectionism and scratch their heads. it does appear, as you're saying today in davos, carrying the mantel of milton friedman, the leader of communist china. >> right. the leader of the free world is the chinese president who leads a country that is not free. let's just be clear that what donald trump might likely say if he were to listen to this, hold on a second, china has been protecting its own economy for years. that's my problem. and by the way, the chinese president lectureing are europeans about how to deal with the refugee crisis, talking about the answer is not opposing globalization but bringing stability to the world. people would say, that china hasn't always shown that kind of approach itself in its own region. it is pretty stunning. >> keir simmons, thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up on mrnlg, we'll check in with former indiana governor mitch daniels. he knows a thing or two about governing and we'll get his take on how trump with work with the

republican congress. and tomorrow white house press secretary josh earnest joins was as the obama administration prepares to move out of 1600 pennsylvania avenue while the trump administration moves in. it's a process that takes, believe it or not, just five hours. >> wow.

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. 27 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." in just a moment we're going the go to capitol hill to speak live with senator john mccain, chairman of the armed services committee. we'll get his thoughts on the trump transition including whether he plans to support the president-elect's pick for secretary of state rex tillerson. but could come a major shift in the u.s. energy policy. one toward increased oil and gas production. all week leading up to the inauguration msnbc's jacob is taking a look at the potential real world ump my indications of trump's campaign promises. and jacob joins us now from cotulla, texas, with what trump's energy plans could mean for communities on the front lines of drilling. jacob, what did you find out? >> good morning, mika. you will remember that we heard

a lot from donald trump during the campaign about increasing domestic energy production from west virginia all of the way here in south texas. the residents here in cotulla are hopeful, optimistic that donald trump will create a second boom in this community that has just gone through quite a big bust after lots of oil production. earlier in barack obama's administration but we came here to figure out what is the reality behind donald trump, the president of the united states being able to do that and here's what we found. take a look. >> so this is fracking in action. >> it is. >> that's impressive. >> they're doing all three wells at once. >> i see. those three red things. >> yep. >> reporter: this is e.t. paige, he manages the airport in cotulla, texas. >> all of this was brush. >> this was just -- just untouched land. >> yeah. just like that. we had a lot of the brush and that was it. >> reporter: donald trump pledged to increase energy production many what he calls

america first emergency plan. residents of cotulla already knows what that looks like. the town went through a massive transformation between 2009 and 201 as high doll lick fracking more than doubled the states oil and national gas production, putting it on par with some of the largest oil producing nations in the world. boomtowns emerged in the eagle four shale region. >> do you see that house down there? >> brand new. some people have swimming pools. >> i do not have a roping arena at my house. and that's all oil well? >> well, the oil paid for it. >> the oil paid for that. >> reporter: the oil paid for lots of things in cotulla, including of 20 new hotels to hughes oil workers coming to town. in 2014 with so much oil in the market, the price per barrel fell from $107 to under $45. oil companies couldn't afford to keep operating here and because

thousands of workers were laid off neither could all those hotels. so check this out. this is the big hotel, fancy hotel in town, the melana they built when there was quite a boom here. it's really fancy. this could be just about anywhere. now huge empty parking lot that i would imagine for a time was filled with oil workers. and then once you get up to the door here it's eerie. here's the sign, we regret to inform that the malana is currently closed. nearby freddie gonzales manages the holiday inn express, the first hotel to open during the boom in 201. >> we used to be 100% occupancy ifrd. to stay here was about $350. >> a night. >> i didn't pay that to stay in san antonio last night. >> no. >> what can i get a room here for tonight? >> i believe it's $84. >> $84. >> what about trump, do you think that's going to help? >> people said that he's the reason, you know, all this is

going to pick up. it's probably is. >> reporter: donald trump wrote in his most recent book that the oil is there for the taking. we just have to take it. but that's not exactly how it works. no producer will take it if the price is so low they can't make a profit. that's why lead by opec most of the world's oil producing nations plenged to cut production in 2017 hoping artificial scarcity will drive prices up. there won't be another boom in catulla or anywhere else in the u.s. for that matter unless that happens. >> when the oil started going downhill two years ago almost all of these tanks were full. trying to store it when the storage got so full, they had to sell it. the price started dropping. >> so people think that trump is going to turn things around? >> i don't know attribute it to any one person. just the price of oil. >> ultimately, guys, what you learn here, what i learned coming here, is that the market has to do with whether or not you can drill baby drill as they say much more than the president

despite what the president or the president-elect has to say. it will be interesting to see how that affects people that live here in cotulla, many of whom are no doubt donald supporters. >> thank you very much. i could not have sat in that thing. the glass and then -- that's it. right? >> that was the take away. >> amazing story. we're back in just a moment with senator john mccain. audi pilotless vehicles have conquered highways, mountains, and racetracks.

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367 past the hour. joining us now from capitol hill, chairman of the senate armed services committee, republican senator john mccain of arizona. very good to have you on the show this morning, sir. >> thank you. i'm freezing my ass off. >> yeah. >> i'm sorry. >> we thank you for doing that. >> really nice of you. >> we'll talk very quickly. >> we'll be doing that on friday. >> we have a checklist, just want you to clarify some comments not for the president

but just as a leader in the united states senate. the president some interviews this weekend sounded ambivalent on nato. how important do you believe nato is to the united states national security? >> joe, nato is vital. and i would point out and i hope that the president-elect understands that when we were attacked on 9/11 a thing called article v of the nato charter, if one is attacked all are attacked, they sent their young people to fight in afghanistan. not because they were attacked but because we were attacked. now, over a thousand of those young people have died in afghanistan fighting for us. and i hope that the president understands that. and they do not spend enough on defense but thanks to vladimir putin's behavior you're seeing it increase in a lot of those countries on their spending. so i think nato in some respects given vladimir putin's behavior is probably more important than any time in the past and with the strain on the eu that the

refugee crisis is causing. >> speaking of vladimir putand f lond london" interview it seems that donald trump put vladimir putin and angela merkel on equal footing going into the white house. how do you react to that? >> i just hope that the president-elect will listen to people like mattis and flynn and kelly and a lot of the good people that i've known for years around him who clearly do not share that view and my conversations with mr. tillerson, he doesn't share that view either. there's no moral equivalent. vladimir putin is the guy that has sent airplanes with precision weapons to strike hospitals in aleppo, killing thousands of innocent women and children. he's a thug and a butcher. >> will you support rex tillerson as secretary of state? >> i had a good conversation with him yesterday. i still have concerns. this friendship award is

something that's hard for me to understand. i understand big business but i also understand that the greatness of america is that our moral superiority over russia, the old soviet union, and other dictorial regimes. the strength of america is because of our moral superiority. when we sacrifice that, then we are betraying what america is all about. >> senator mccain, what do you think the most important thing president-elect trump should accomplish when he addresses the nation on his inauguration day? >> i think it's obvious, mika. we've got to get the country back together. i saw the polling numbers you were discussing them earlier on the program. we got to bring our country back together and the message should be one of unity. after we won the primaries, that speech he gave that night, i think was very much appreciated. i think we've got to do that

again in spades. and it filters down, by the way, to the congress. obviously you're seeing the boycotting, the inauguration. the president sets the tone and beats the right drum and that's what i think he has to do. and i am reasonably optimistic he will do so. >> katty? >> senator mccain, it's katty kay here. donald trump's affinity for vladimir putin can be mystifying but perhaps he's working on a i geopolitical premise he can use russia to help in the fight against isis. do you think that tragedy in the american national interest could work? >> well, no, because i know that vladimir putin's ambitions are. different than the united states' priorities. great example of that is while vladimir putin was using his air pow wither to hit the hospitals and the moderate opposition in

aleppo, he sat and watched isis retake pal mymyra. that's the classic example of his priorities. vladimir putin's priorities are to restore the russian empire, okay? that's what they are. and as long as we understand that, that's fine. and he is taken crimea, h we has divided countries including georgia and ukraine and his ambitions are being fulfilled to restore the russian empire. that's not the united states of america's priorities. so that's why i don't think you can work with him. you can work with him the way ronald reagan did in a position of peace through strength, which means first of all we've got to rebuild our military which has been decimated over the last eight years. 21% reduction in funding thanks to obama and the congress. >> senator, a couple of years ago russian dissent told me that he believes that vladimir putin is the most dangerous man in the

world, that he poses a greater threat to the u.s. than isis. do you agree with him? what is your response to that? >> well, i agree with that. i think when you look at russian increasing capabilities and, by the way, they are closing the gap as far as military capabilities is concerned rather dramatically between themselves and the united states. and that should alarm us all. but look at his behavior. look at what he has done. he has made no bones about what he wants to do. and he's done it -- he's played a very weak hand in the most clever fashion. he's got the world's 15th largest economy and yet he's now a major player in the middle east. there's no -- nothing more significant than the russians, the iranians, and the turks inviting the united states to come to a peace conference. the united states isn't leading. the united states isn't even part of it but they're, quote, being, quote, invited. how far we have come. >> so you have some concerns,

senator, about the defense sequester elimination potential here. you're releasing a white paper entitled "restoring american power" pertaining to this. can you tell us about it? >> well, we now have the smallest army, navy, air force, marine corps we've had. we've decreased defense spending over the last eight years by 21%. and again, it's fun for me to blame barack obama for everything but the congress shares responsibility with this passage of sequestration which is mindless across the board cuts which have nothing to do with discrimination of what we need or don't need. and it is harmed the morale of the men and women serving, it has harmed our readiness. our uniformed military leaders have told us that because of sequestration, the men and women in uniform are in, quote, greater danger. we have an obligation to those men and women who are serving in the military. not to put their lives in greater danger. and it's getting worse.

so, yes, we have a lot to do and we've got to spend some money. i'm glad that the president-elect has committed to doing that as well. >> senator mccain, rick tyler. how concerned are you with donald trump's diplomatic acumen? >> well, i hope he listens to the people that i've known for many years like mattis and flynn and kelly and a these. he's surrounded himself with some very, very bright people. i hope that he would listen to them. i think that tillerson can do a good job if he puts his priorities straight. so -- >> but do you worry about it? >> -- i hope that he listens. of course i worry but i worried a great deal under barack obama as i watched our military being dismantled and watched the world being set on fire because of his desire to withdraw america from the world stage. and calling isis the and saying tell vladimir i will b more flexible when i'm

re-elected. so i've been worried for a long time, especially under barack obama and the foreign policy which is characterized the last eight years. >> wow. okay. so i guess the follow-up question will be are you still freezing your ass off? sounds kind of cold. >> well said. >> all right. >> well said. >> senator john mccain, thank you. >> thank you, senator. >> very much. very warm in here. >> greatly appreciate it. >> great to be with you. >> we'll see you friday. still ahead, before joe biden hands the keys to mike pence, it was mitch daniels passing the torch in indiana. we'll talk to the former republican governor about the incoming vice president and what the trump administration can expect in washington. we've done well in life, with help from our advisor, we made it through many market swings. sure we could travel, take it easy... but we've never been the type to just sit back...

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we're just a few days away from donald trump's inauguration and i saw that trump himself is setting inauguration sweatshirts for $79. i know it sounds expensive for a sweatshirt but just imagine how much they would cost if they were made in america. i mean, that would be -- donald trump raised a record $90 million in private donations to pay for his inauguration. trump said just anothers ten million and we can cover my appearance fee. >> and donald trump is tweeting this morning touching on a disht of different topics. trump writing a short time ago, people are pouring into washington in record numbers. bikers for trump are on their

way. it will be a great thursday, friday, and saturday. he followed up with, the same people who did the phony election polls, and were so wrong, are now doing approval rating polls. they are rigged just like before. and here now is a quick look at just some of the ground we've covered so far this morning. >> when you exhaust somebody every day at some point they turn you off. >> the problem with twitter, it's far too simplyisic and blunt a tool at 140 characters. >> if you just look at the last 72 hours it just chaos and confusion. at a time where they're really scrambling to put together a white house. >> put the phone away. i'm waiting for the kickoff. let's get the friday and push all the trash talk off to the side. >> china is hitting back. >> there is a coming fight between donald trump and the chinese. >> the people around the president spent a lot of time thinking about china in terms of that being the number one threat. >> china is not an enemy of the united states of america and there aren't any good reasons

for china to become an enemy of the united states. >> is nato still important? >> nato is important to our security and security of our allies. i think it's also critical our nato allies step up. nato is vital given vladimir putin's behavior it's probably more important than any time in the past. >> the question is is he applying pressure on nato. >> source of confusion whether this is tactical or it's a restructuring of the current world order very good to have you on the show this morning, sir. >> thank you. i'm freezing my ass off. >> ah, yeah. i can't believe he said that. but he dsaid it. do you have thing to share? >> going back to the twitter, which we all do now. a.p. is reporting that the putin says those who spread fake allegations about trump are, quote, worse than prostitutes. >> okay. thank you. >> cominfrom a man who is is a man of few words. >> whoa, putin tweeting this morning. joining us now from capitol hill former director of the office of management and budget under

president george w. bush and former republican governor of indiana, now president purdue university, mitch daniels. great to have you back on the show. >> my back side is warm in case you're curious. >> good. i was going to ask but you just took my first question. all right. as of the second one would be this, the trump cabinet confirmation process is picking up again today on capitol hill. the senate hearing for secretary of interior nominee congressman ryan zinke of montana and potential education secretary betsy duvos. it looks to be more contention with teachers unions mobilizing to stop the charter school's advocate from becoming the top federal education official. devos will face questions from elizabeth warren about her experience in public education. he already has support from the help committee's chairman lamar alexander who says he's going to be swiftly confirmed. she's going to be introduced by former senatornd democratic vice

presidential come knee joe lieberman and today got the backing of jeb bush. so her hearing was originally set for last week. delayed by pending financial disclosures. and review on friday found that the billionaire had omitted $125,000 donation to a group fighting the inclusion of collective bargaining rights in michigan state constitution. so the transition has acknowledged the miss tatake. are you concerned? what do you feel about this nominee? >> i assume senator alexander's right when he says she will be confirmed and she deserves to be. she's a very good person and enormous heart for children. she's been active a long time on behalf of children. there was never anything in it for her. and so i think that she will now be first confirmed and then i hope successful secretary. you know at a time when we're all concerned about the divisiveness in the country, there are some issues in

education where people have and could again come together. and i think she's the kind of person who will strive to make that happen. >> okay. >> let me ask you about the potential debt crisis that that's looming. obviously we know and that there's probably going to be a lot of tension between democrats and republicans. that's a given. talk about what we can expect and any concerns you may have abouinfighting within republicans as far as how far the president-elect is willing to go on spending. we know that people like paul ryan necessarily aren't there with him and he's many circumstances more aligned with democrats on certain issues than even his own party. >> i thought one of the great disappointments of the year just past was that neither party had anything constructive to say, almost nothing to say at all, about this little matter of a $20 trillion debt, unimaginable fig their we have stacked up and

are going to dump on the next generation. my own hope is and i think the current emphasis on economic growth and doing absolutely everything that could be done legislatively or administratively to enhance growth, that's the right place to start. we'll never get anywhere against the deficit or debt, limping along as the economy has been. but, boy, on the other side of that and before long i do hope there's a serious look taken atlanta least gradual long-term measures to get at the real problem which are the safety net programs. they knead to be saved from themselves akd we got to get started soon. >> so "washington post" columnist michael gersen wrote this in a piece this week. trump promised a tax cut that will reduce federal rev view by 7 trillion over ten years. he's promised an infrastructure initiative that may cost an additional trillion. he's promised to rebuild the military. he's affectily promised not to

make changes in social security and medica and he's promised to move swiftly towards a balanced federal budget. being taken these thing can't be taken together. he's made a serious of pledges that can't be reconciled. would you agree with that given your expertise on these issues? >> you don't node a lot of expertise to know that michael's point is correct. by the way, those have been the policies for quite a long time now. more spending and no action at all on the biggest problem, which everyone knows is the driver of these debts. you know, i spend my time these days with some of the most purposeful and talented yuck people in america, purdue university. and i can never be with them without thinking about the injustice we are doing as their elders by borrowing money in enormous sums, spending it not on their future, long-term investment, but current consumption. it's the wrong thing to do. it's economically ruined i us.

and they will be the ones to pay the price. >> rick? >> governor daniels, rick tyler. your fellow hoosier is going to become vice president, mike pence. give us a sense of what you think his role will be legislate ily on capitol hill. how effective or how much of an asset will he be to the trump administration? >> i think he can be a great asset. this country badly needs a successful presidency. and the elements -- some elements are there in terms of significant majorities of the new president's party. but i think governor pence, soon vice president pence, if used effectively and indications seem to be that he will be, will be a great ambassador. he's a person of great good will. he obviously knows capitol hill and many of its people very well. he's always had an open door, open mind to people from the other party. so if we have some hopes of

progress on economic growth and tax reform and i hope higher education issues and others, i think he could be a central figure. >> all right. mitch daniels, it's so great to have you on the show. thank you very much. maybe we'll see you on friday. >> nope, i'm getting out of town. >> oh,okay. then you won't be freezing whatever. whatever senator mccain said so eloquently. all right. thank you so much. a look now at the plans for donald trump's inauguration week which will be scaled back compared to recent years. there will be three days of festivities compared to five for barack obama in 2009. three inaugural balls, far short of the record 14 set by bill clinton in 1993. and inaugural parade lasting 90 minutes, the shortest on record. still, trump associates say they have raised $90 million in private money that compares to $53 million raised for president obama's first inaugural with ten official balls. the donors to trump's will soon become public as a federal law passed under george w. bush

requires presidents reveal names of contributors within 90 days of taking office. and though his term officially begins at noon on friday, trump said in an interview with the "times of london" that the workweek will begin in earnest next week saying he will be signing orders beginning, quote, day one, which i will consider to be monday as opposed to friday or saturday. right? i mean, my day one is going to be monday because i don't want to be signing and getting it mixed up with lots of celebration. final thoughts and to rick and bianna, the description of trump's inauguration is a little bit like the night before campaign when he said i don't need beyonce, i don't need jay-z, i've got me here and a microphone. >> and the millions of people who voted for him don't need them either. this is not just isolated to donald trump. >> i wasn't making fun. >> right. i do think that the donald trump we've seen before this friday and the donald trump we will see

post-inauguration is what people are looking for and whether or not we'll see a different side of him. >> it's doing to be extraordinary week. so we'll see how it goes. >> yeah. i'm hopeful for friday. >> still in the air. >> i'm hoping he's inclusive. >> twitter account be active during -- >> oh, my gosh. so many questions. all right. i think senator john mccain was the highlight and the low light of the show today. that does it for us this morning. stephanie picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika. donald trump twitter, never heard of it. hey, there. look where i am, live right here in washington, d.c. where in three days, three days, right behind me, donald trump will be sworn in at the 45th president of the united states. but the thomorning there is a l happening. massive boycott taking place, moving 40 democratic lawmakers now ditching the inauguration completely in a protest. >> some of us who will be working to try to resist the agenda that president-elect trump put forth, one that's