system and rolling back regulations on oil and gas drilling. president trump is expected to attend and make remarks tomorrow. it's getting loud in here. joe and mika have made it into the studio. that does it and mika made it i studio. that does it for us on this wednesday. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ >> i have behind me two pictures that were taken at about the same time of day in 2009 and 2017. which crowd is larger, the 2009 crowd or the 2017 crowd? >> senator, if you allow me to give the disclaimer, it appears the crowd on the left-hand side is bigger. than the crowd on the right-hand side. >> thank you. are you comfortable as being a adviser a as presentsing

falsehoods as an alternative of fact? >> as you and i discussed in your office i have every intent and believe that i have shown up to my point in congress i am deadly serious about giving you hard numbers and i intend to follow through on that. >> that happened on capitol hill yesterday. we are going to talk about all of that later. it's, seriously, like a fire hydrant of stuff coming at you. if you're a conservative or liberal or whatever you are, mike, you asked me before we came on, does this guy ever sleep? >> does he? that's my question. >> i swear. yesterday, we had signings and things done, like keystone. we debated two years. boom, five minutes, done. >> keystone pipeline from yesterday, and mexico going to build a wall. it's going to affect immigration and the tension facilities. tpp, that is part of yesterday. they spoke to yesterday and that

involves china, obviously. new settlements in israeli. that's an after-effect of it. chicago, send the feds into chicago to take care of health care. he mentioned supreme court. have a nominee for the supreme court within the next couple of weeks. teresa may is coming from great britain. he threw out voter fraud 3 to 5 million more people voted for him and that is why he didn't win the popular vote. >> also, though, the refuges, he talked about the refuges. >> that's today. >> new person at the u.n. last night. talking about vertigo. >> he doesn't take a nap. >> he doesn't sleep. i had "hardball" on last night and two union guys praises him. wait, had you? mr. trump, president trump. >> that is huge. >> then here is the weird thing

about keystone. yes, we will -- the pipeline can move forward. yes, we will do. but it's to be u.s. steel. canada, if you want to do this it has to be u.s. steel. all of these guys, automakers and mayor berry coming out, yes, we are going to build in america. you don't know where to start, what to do. if you're a liberal activist, where do you start? >> all these things that some people thought were inflammatory things are happening within the first week of becoming president. extreme vetting. remember ed we have to figure out what is going on? that goes in today with an executive order. he is doing all of the things he said he was going to do. >> it's the incoming is unbelievable. with that, we say good morning. welcome to "morning joe." mike barnicle is here along with msnbc anchor and msnbc

correspondent steve kornacki. and in washington, cokie roberts. might be good to hear what she thinks of this onslight along with willie, joe and me. cokie, what do you think? >> well, i think that he, as say, going full steam ahead. several things here to worry because, we did have, yet again yesterday, another questioning of voters and truth telling seems to be not part of what is going on. if the reports about what he plans to do today are true, i think they are extremely dangerous for the united states of america. >> which reports specifically? >> it is reports he is going to restart the interrogation tkes off shore that were started by

the obama administration shutting out refuges. shutting out 8 million children in the world who are refuges. if you shut out syrian refuges at this moment, it's like shutting the jews out during world war ii. >> let's get through methodically everything we are talking about here to debate some of the policies and the theaters that still keeps distracting people from what is happening here. president trump is tweeting a big day planned today on national security among other things. we will build the wall. a senior administration official says trump will sign an executive order to construct a new barrier along the mexico border when he visits the department of homeland security this afternoon. also one that will crack down on cities that refused to hand over the undocumented deportation. still unknown is what action the president will take on doca, for

hundreds of thouts of undocumented who arrived at children. also reports from reuters and "the new york times" that trump might fulfill a campaign ban on most refuges, a suspension of visas for anyone from syria, iraq, lebanon and yemen. "the new york times" has details on this but says those details may change. >> this is what i promised in the campaign. this is not as expansive as he promised in the first part of the campaign where the muslim wasn't banned but this is the most focus of ban from countries. >> looks like a several day rollout. i think today looking at something on the wall. you can accuse donald trump of many things but he said the build the wall 23 million times

on the campaign trail. the executive order he would be putting out there today on the wall and unclear what this can do in terms of building it because i think you need to get more from congress. he also had that piece of it where he said make mexico pay for it and all his critics say mexico will never fork over a check. i think we go gott a clue how maybe they will pull that out. money from the dhs sends doin' to mexico in the form of aid and essentially i think they would look to ka the cost of the wall out of that and say, here it is. this was supposed to go to mexico and instead we are keeping it here to build the wall and mexico paid the wall and looks like the work-around they may have in mind. >> when i ran, these are the things i'm going to do. if you want to vote for me, vote for me. if you don't, don't. this is what i'm going to do so when i get up there, don't get angry at me because i'm telling you that is what i'm going to do. i felt the most persuasive thing to do. you get up there and you complete. what we are talking about here,

whether it's building the wall or banning refuges from countries that they think pose a terror threat, this is exactly what -- as steve said, this is exactly what he promised to do 23 million times during the campaign. >> well, all of it is. there is nothing new in what he has done. the issue is it's literally a fire hydrant posterioring through executive orders. have they taken the time to think about the impact and effect of what they are doing? as cokie raised, and "the times" raises it. one of the things that he signed, according to the draft in the tension policy is almost like a bipolar thing that he signed. according to a draft, the order and detention policies which started revuf of whether to reinstate the program of interrogation of program of highly valued alien terrorists to be operated outside of the united states and whether it should -- >> going to do a study? >> yeah.

but then it goes on that that section of the draft says, but no person in the custody of the u.s. shall, at any time, be subjected to torture or cruel and inhumane treatment. >> right. >> so it's like, you know, what are they going to do? how are they going to do it? >> i don't want to get into a debate on what torture is or isn't because that could last 48 hours. now we have the army field manual. the fact of the matter is everything that everybody wanted to do in 2002, including the democrats on the hill, suddenly, in 2005 and 2006 are abhorrent. we don't to sleep deprivation that people planning to blow things up in america. we are not going to torture but a study on this. i see no problem on doing a study on enhanced terrific techniques and everybody can freak out fept to but talk to the cia on whether we should do enough to do a study because

what we have done since then is, what we have done since then is we have just killed them with drone strikes and their families. >> the thing about the order is, you're right, study it. >> study it. >> what this means is that they are going to ship some of these people to egypt when they catch them, they are going to egypt. anybody is petrified by that. >> obama and george w. bush and bill clinton uses executive orders and fdr used it more than 3,000 times, more than anybody. everything is sort of temporary. all of these things with built on sand because president obama can introduce one executive order and the next president undoes. so you have a back and forth. so this interesting thing between president where everything is there for a couple of years, pull it away and might come back the next year so these aren't solid policies that a lot of the through the ages.

these are temporary policies switching between presidents. >> and building a coalition. and not just having your side vote for you. >> keeping your eye on the ball here. we even sue senator merkley doing the whole crowd size thing. side show thing of sean spicer yesterday. executive orders and policies being pushed through here which some might see as chilling where we need to keep our eye on the ball so what is really important here. it's hard to do. it's hard to do. president trump put the power of his office behind pipeline projects that were blocked by the obama administration and put off for years in terms of a decision. the application for the keystone pipeline will be reconsidered on a fast track basis with the secretary of state to decide within 60 days and the army will review and approve in an expedited manner the dakota pipeline. the president signed an order to

the secretary of commerce seeking a plan within six months to mandate that americans must be used in any pipeline project. >> we are, and i am, very insistent that if we are going to build pipelines in the united states, the pipes should be made in the united states. much pipeline is bought from other countries. from now on, we are going to start making pipeline in the united states. we build it in the united states, we build the pipelines. we want to build the pipe and put a lot of workers, a lot of steel workers back to work. >> this is what is so interesting about it. that's a good way. >> a good one. >> to get "wall street journal" both sporting and opposing you. "wall street journal" saying this was a great idea. but then bashing him for saying that canada would have to use u.s. steel for pipeline in the united states of america. if you don't think that is in the sweet spot in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and

ohio. >> no, it's good. that was good. i mean, i don't agree but that was good. the "the new york times" think they were more about the symbol be substance but had enormous debate. according to david goldwin, the former head of state department's energy bureau in the obama administration. the state department estimated that keystone would support 42,000 temporary jobs for two years. about 3,900 of them this nconstruction and the rest through indirect support bike food service but only 35 permanent jobs. >> cokie, this has been a battle for years. >> just sat there. >> you had the state department saying that it would have less of an environmental impact of moving the oil other ways, yet, you have -- had a massive fight on both sides. where the canadians are looking

at us going, wait? we build 57 and 58 is going to end the world? >> well, the pipeline has been much more about politics than oil and environment protection and all of that. sxcket fact is we know the reason it was postponed or killed was because of politics and now it's back because of politics. and i think that is -- that is a minor consideration these days. i just think everything else, as you say, everything else that is going on, it's hard to focus on one thing. but i do think that if we are in the business today of doing all kind of things that have the effect of creating terrorism abroad, which is what we know happens when we have things like these detention places where people have been, if you don't want to use the word torture, they have been treated badly. and it just creates more

terrorists. and my real concern here is that when somebody like general mattis says that, does the president believe it? because that's where this question of crowd size and voter numbers and all of that stuff, those things themselves don't matter much. what matters is does he believe facts when they are presented to him? >> you have general mattis who has said they certainly are not going to support torture and donald trump sounded like he would prefer to him. mike pompeo said he would not follow instructions to torture detainees. i don't want to get mired down in this because we have debated this way too much over the past eight, nine, ten years here. there has been such a broad brush put across this entire topic of, quote, torture. suddenly sleep deprivation is torture. everything that is not in the army field manual has been -- there has been a broad brush and

everything suddenly is torture. you talk to any intelligence official that knows this, has studied it, and lived it, let me finish my point, please, because i'm not going to allow another broad brushing, mika and i'm not saying cokie is doing that. all i'm saying is -- this is all been about emotion and not actually been about how we get information. so everything is not in the army field manual is defined at torture. i don't know a whole lot of intel experts that would say that. >> but to the broader point is what i'm talking about. i'm talking about the broader point of when somebody does say something and presents the facts, does he believe them? that is the question. >> that is actually the big issue. >> that is a huge issue. how do you make policy if, in fact, you don't believe facts and have your own set of nonfacts? >> okay. i'm going to try and answer

this, knowing what we know about this president. i think that he has hired a foreign policy team that is such a set of strong personalities, backed up by a lot of stars, and they will not sit around and wait for someone to talk about crowd size or alternative facts, so you need to look to them. >> when it comes to foreign policy? >> yeah. i think that he has hired an incredibly strong team. we may not -- cokie, you and i might be concerned about some of their points of view, but i would look to them, because they will get up and leave the room if this game starts on the issues of foreign policy that are important to them. >> this is foreign policy today. in, in fact, these reports are direct about his policies toward refuges, that's foreign policy. >> i agree. i'm concerned. >> and, again, we heard throughout the campaign a great deal of misinformation about refuges.

>> totally. >> and most of the refuges are children and women and the notion that they are going to harm our country in some way, it seems to me a much greater harm is the notion that the united states no longer standards for our values. >> steve kornacki, that certainly is cokie roberts' believe a belief. >> mine too. >> and tens of millions of americans. >> i'm trying to adopt a family and make it harder. >> at the same time, as you said, donald trump not only talked about this in the campaign, 23 million times, he actually had a far more aggressive approach and this is backing up to a position i would guess, maybe not a majority of americans support, but a hell of americans support. >> you look at the polling on this question of syrian refuges that came up during the campaign. this is one example i think

trump tapped into something out there that was a lot broader. >> a majority position. >> yes. the most recent poll i saw 52% do not support syrian refuges coming into the united states and that is going back. two polls i'm aware of taken during the campaign and each one showed majority opposition to this. not saying it's rights and the concerns are not valid but in terms of say donald trump campaigned on it, he said that is what he is going to do and the polling evidence that is out there says the country, the majority, smaller majority but still a majority was there with him. >> he painted in very broad stripes saying many issues during the campaign he just could not do legally. these are some things that he can do legally. sometimes with just the signing of his signature. >> the question this morning remains from december of 2015, which we asked him when he came on a couple of days later after he announced this idea of keeping muslims out of the country which is how will you know when it's okay to start letting them back in the

country? remember, he said we have to figure out what the hell is going on. >> to get a vienna refusyrian r. this is a joke. >> does this become a policy that lasts all the way through his presidency? >> here is another question, too. because he tweeted, yesterday, another thing that i think most americans are a majority of americans would support. basically saying if the, quote, carnage in chicago doesn't stop, he is going to send federal troops in himself because the situation is absolutely deplorable there. that is something that we could talk about and debate for a month. he says if chicago doesn't fix the horrible carnage and 228 shootings in 2017 with 42 killings, i will send in the feds. there is -- i want to go back to the point you made in the beginning because it's 20 after. and we haven't even gotten to the sean spicer presser yesterday. >> which i think is right.

>> yeah. there is so much going on. and you asked the question does he ever sleep? the answer is no. he does not sleep. this isn't going to be a one off. this is going to be every day with him. he's going to be coming nonstop. >> i'll accept that he doesn't sleep. i think the larger issue and the ultimate question with regard to the refuge thing that we have been talking about and the immigration stuff that we have been talking about and it's something i don't think you can poll. the ultimate question is who are we? >> right. >> as americans. who are we? are we still who we have always been? do we still open our doors to the grieved, to the children of this world who have been brutalized in the various countries? >> we do. >> we do. we are also a country that has been attacked on september 11th. we are a country that has seen what happened in paris and there was a belief and we said it, at

the time, that we had a president that was not focused enough on that. we have seen the shootings in orlando. we have seen the shootings in san bernardino. so, yes, we can sit around this set in manhattan and ask who we are or in washington, d.c. and ask who we are, but we also can understand -- i'm not -- i am not knocking -- i am an interpreter, all right? i am a red state interpreter. >> right. >> all right? >> i'm glad you clarified that. >> you sit on friday night and watch any football game and i guarantee you, you start talking like that, mike, people are going to look sideways at you. cokie, the same thing with you. go into southern virginia. >> i understand all of that. but there is also a role of leadership here. and the truth is that just shutting people out is snag i think is more dangerous than -- by the way, those attacks you talked about, the attacks you talked about in this country in san bernardino and orlando. >> right.

>> they weren't -- those people weren't from syria. >> i understand. cokie, i understand that. >> you're just saying the majority of things that that is the case and they should be left out. i get that. i understand this is an attitude, but there is a role of leadership. >> the majority feels, and i'm certainly not fighting with you, i'm just, again, i don't want us to sit around in echo chamber and talk about this. right. >> >> the majority of people outside the neighborhoods where we live believe that they have had leaders in washington, d.c. that have not focused sufficiently on this in the past. >> you know what is interesting, joe? if you go to one of the towns, many of which -- almost all of which are in red states, where refuges have come in, you get a completely different view. >> right. >> you go to erie, pennsylvania, a conservative area of pennsylvania, you get refuges coming in and people being wonderful to them and then being

grateful that they are there. >> right. >> so it is a very different experience for the people who are actually dealing with refuges and know that we are not talking about scary people. we are talking about little kids. >> we are at 23 after the hour and have to go to a break. we are going to continue the conversation. >> it's a good debate. >> but i'm not debating. >> no, no, no. >> no. again, i just -- i want to say -- >> you are debating everything. >> no, i'm not. >> virtually. >> i am not debating anything. >> okay. >> what i am trying to do is explain why somebody would do this and as steve said, 53% of americans can support this, and it's important for us to figure out what is going on out there because let's face it, we haven't done a great job over the past 18 months in doing that. >> i get exactly where you're coming from. and i get exactly, you know, when you say to me go down to a

red state and ask the question who are we. >> or all you have to do is just get out of boston. >> but -- >> go to western mass. >> in boston, massachusetts, they understand some things that lao a lot of people unaround the countrynd but haven't paid attention to. the work that has been done in this country by american troopers overseas, marines, army, navy, air force in killing these bastards for 15, 16 years and not enough people pay attention to the fact that less than 1% of us are doing that job. >> let me, as we go to break, let me just say that unless you take care of the syrian problem, which we have not taken care of, then the refuges are going to continue. that is the source of it. the destabilization and so perhaps our president can speak to russia's leader. >> i think as the foreign policy team, the cabinet comes together.

we will see this conversation get richer so i feel cokie's concerns, but i think we need some days to go by. this is getting fascinating. as we went through a huge number of moves the administration made yesterday and planned for today we didn't get to his meeting with automakers and his eminent supreme court pick. trump's continued insistence there were millions of illegal votes in the election could undermine the work. we are going to get to that as well. also ahead this morning, senator john mccain joins us. plus the top ranking democrat on the government oversight committee, elijah cummings. and former labor secretary, tom perez who is running the -- now running for chairman of the dnc. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

national association of secretaries of state say that they don't agree with the president's assessment. what evidence do you have?

>> as i said, i think the president has believed that for a while based on studies and information he has. >> is the white house been formally asked for a probe into this -- >> i think he won very handily with 306 electoral votes and 33 states. he is very comfortable with his win. >> is it worth clarifying whether illegal battles -- >> i think studies one came out that showed 14% of people who have voted were nonstudies and other studies presented to him. a belief he maintains. >> wouldn't he want an investigation of this? >> as i noted several times now he has believed this for a long time and i think he won fairly overwhelmingly -- look. we will work. >> i'm asking you why not investigate something that -- >> maybe we will. >> the biggest scandal in american electoral history, 3 to 5 million people voting illegally? >> i think we will see where we go from here but right now the focus that the president has is on putting americans back to work. >> do you believe there is widespread voter fraud? >> look. >> how can he be comfortable

with his win if -- >> he is very comfortable with his win. >> 3 million votes. maybe he didn't win. >> he is very comfortable with his win. >> what does that mean for democracy? >> it means that i've answered your question. >> does it troubtrouble you tha continues to hold a belief on this that isn't based in fact? >> i've already commented on that and made that very, very clear. >> there are people in jail in kentucky for this kind of activity. there is always argument how much and how frequent and all of the rest but the notion of election fraud is a fiction is not true. >> rather than the media playing the talking points of the left, gosh, it doesn't exist, it doesn't matter, pay no attention what is going on, here is a radical idea. how about we enforce the law? >> i think this is a huge distraction from really what we ought to be focusing on which is getting the president his cabinet so he can get to work for the american people. this really seems like a rabbit trail to me. >> this is a president who is

claiming electoral fraud in a massive fashion to reconcile the fact that he did not lose the popular vote which, in fact, he did but he is still a legitimate president. but this is not about voting any more. it is about him. and the more he does this, the more troubling it will be for his presidency. i am begging the president to share bus the information you have this or please stop saying it. >> oh, my god. >> sean spicer, it's a tough job. >> no. actually -- >> it actually is a very, very tough job. and there is a -- but this is -- we learned a lesson on saturday. you don't go out unless you've got all of the facts on your side. that's a great lesson to learn. tell your boss you can't. yesterday's lesson? you don't have to answer every question. ask me the question. >> does the president believe the 3 million to 5 million people voted illegally? >> i'll tell you what the

president believes. the president believes that millions and millions of americans have to get back to work and work hard and why today we signed the keystone pipeline deal and we enforced u.s. steel and ask me another question. why we talk to the automakers. the president believes it's more important to talk to the union and the ceos. >> i am answering what matters and what matters to the president is we get americans back to work. that's all that matters now and we are going to do it by using u.s. steel and we are going to have them building plants from sea to shining sea, dah, dah. you walk and worry about that i'm not going to worry about it. >> mike pompeo has the hardest job. >> you're obsessed how many people voted illegally in this race. we are obsessed in getting people back to work. it just makes me sad. >> the president has said this repeatedly and he said it in front of the leadership the other day, 3 million to 5 million. i don't know if any member in that room said where did you get those numbers and i don't know whether that happened. but if they had 3 million to 5

million illegals voting in the election, the clinton campaign had to be the dumbest people on the face of the earth they couldn't get a portion to get a portion of them in wisconsin or michigan to vote? they would have won! >> lying and obsession of crowd size. i will tell you, sean spicer, i wish i could roll back five days for him. because this happened because of saturday, because he is thrown off his game. he should have sat for five days watching video of press secretaries from years past and learning how to do questions and answer them and as for saturday, as for saturday when he went out there and did the hostage video, i should have said, no, mr. preside president, if you force me to do this i will walk out the door with my family and nowhere to go because i will not lie to the media and i will not represent this administration. trump would have probably backed down. and then he would have been able to do his job with his real voice. he is thrown off his game. that's all nerves. >> the crowd size bit and 3

million to 5 million bit is all hinged on the fact that donald trump can't stand hearing he somehow is not a legitimate president and he won fewer votes than hillary clinton. >> his team can't bear to tell him the truth. that is bad. >> he is has people going out saying things that aren't true. sean spicer saying the it was an overwhelming victory including ronald reagan. >> who would tells him you are president of the united states? you are the president! act like the president p.m. you're the president! >> we had talked about how he has -- what i believe to be a really, really strong -- we all believe to have a really strong foreign policy team. he doesn't have somebody close to him in the inner circle that can walk in and say, don't do this. . i will say this. i will say this, though. steve, that, yesterday, the only reason i'm saying spicer should

have changed the subject is because, yesterday, it was the press who legitimately brought this up. i'm not knocking the president. they should have brought this up. sean did not have to answer it. he had so much material to work with yesterday. you just don't have to answer every question. >> from a press secretary standpoint, sure. he was in an impossible situation because once you put that out there it invites the follow-up question and where is the proof and you can't produce anything and you're in an awful situation. we were saying earlier, i was saying a number of issues where trump has tapped into something that is out there that is bigger than when we think and honestly this is one of them. the most shocking poll number i saw yesterday, this is across the board and not just republicans. it shows has 46% of voters from late december believe that millions of people voted illegally in the last election. that is 36% of democrats, that is 25% of hillary clinton voters. right. >> >> if you ask them that question in a poll. that notion is out there. >> so add to that --

>> but that notion is out there. why does he get this from? i feel he is picking up things parted of a discussion -- >> he is. i'm not trying to criticize president trump here but his team. jake sherman is joining us in the next block about reaction to the speech which we are stunned by and we were a little bit wrong when you hear these numbers. but, cokie, to the point of sean spicer, it does not actually leave it off. we know who donald trump is. we understand perhaps more than others but people are beginning to understand sort of how he plays but he has got these strong prrp foreign policy alpha males around him but the team on the inside is missing something and specifically sean spicer at this point. if he doesn't get it soon, it's going to be a problem for the president. >> it's a very hard job. >> it is very hard. >> but also i was thinking about what joe was just saying, somebody go in and say to him, look. you've got to get -- behave,

basically! and usually that person, frankly, is the first lady. and she is often the truth teller to the president. and i don't think we necessarily have that situation in this white house. and so i don't know who can be the truth teller. there is no obvious person to be there and say, you know, look. i've known you forever, bud, and this isn't working. don't do this. you know? and that is a real problem. >> well, actually, i do think she has the ability to do that. the question is will melania take that role, given the fact she has to stay in new york with her son. so that is an interesting dynamic and you bring up something that has been the case for every presidency i've witnessed. >> the things that were going on yesterday, the fact that anybody is talking about this today means that the ball was dropped

yesterday. and they have got to put this behind them and put crowd sizes behind them and put all of these distractions behind them because there is a lot that they could be focusing on. what did we call this yesterday? just chipping. yesterday, sean, with every answer, like he was chipping right into the pond. chipping right into the pond. get past this. and focus on what is important. as you said, jamaica sherman is coming up. >> oh, my gosh. >> he has some really surprising new poll numbers on president trump's inaugural address. we were wrong. we will be right back. at angie'e

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we are going to get new poll numbers from politico in a moment. first, before nicholas burns was ambassador to nato, he was bush 41's director of soviet affairs. that is next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪

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the trump administration is sparking a strong reaction from china after this warning over

china's military buildup in the south china sea. >> if those islands are, in fact, in international waters and not part of china property, then yeah, we are going to make sure we defend international territories from being taken over by one country. >> reporter: china has been constructing artificial island in disputed territory to use as bases. >> that's not for the united states. that's between china and some other countries in this region. that was nbc's richard engel reporting last night on another flash point for foreign policy. in a column three years ago, former u.s. ambassador nicholas burns writing in part this. the immediate danger is not so much that japan or china will decide to launch a war for the islands, but that they might stumble into conflict by mistake or miscalculation. ambassador burns now serves as professor of diplomatsy at the harvard kennedy school of government and he joins us now on set.

our first question for you this morning comes from cokie roberts in washington. cokie? >> hi, ambassador burns. how nice to see you. >> good morning, cokie. >> you have played so many roles in the state department for so many years. i must just ask you a big question -- have you ever seen anything like this? it looks like new relations with china, with russia, with great britain, with the european union, all of it. i mean, is this just remarkable to you? >> i think it is remarkable. it's a rough start. i mean, when you go out and try to create a crisis with china, whether it's on trade or currency and now the south china sea, but you don't have that kind of tough-minded policy toward russia, you've confused the european allies and you've unnerved the asian allies. i think that inaugural speech was a dark speech and protectionist speech and highly nationalistic. what the rest of the world is used to hearing from whether

it's eisenhower or reagan or barack obama is a big hearted america and america that is ready to lead and be faithful to its allies. i think the acute problem right now is in europe where trump is not working with angel merkel and she is the strongest leader in europe. last week he said that he would have equal trust and angela merkel and vladimir putin he said he didn't care if the europeans survived or not and called nato obsolete in one interview with "the times of london. >> your perspective for so many years in so many roles what does that mean for the united states of america? >> well, a lot of our interests are overseas and a lot of our jobs depend on our ability to export. we see that field to china. i'm not sure it helps the american worker and american businesses. you know this from your time, cokie, your years in washington, the reliability and credibility of the american president. president trump has a right to

change policy you he has to do so in in a way that explain to your allies how we are going to relate to nem in the case of our allies and nato and defend them in vladimir putin. so it's been a very shaky beginning. >> you served on the national security council for so many years with a particular focus on soviet union and russia. we could catalog the stories we have seen involving donald trump and russia and the flattering things he said about vladimir putin, their influence, that country's influence on our election here at home. rou concerned are you about that relationship between donald trump and vladimir putin? >> i'm concerned that russia interfered in our election and concerned there is not a follow-up through congress or through an independent means. but for strategic reasons, i think the chairman of the joint chiefs said that russia is our great adversary in the world and general mattis is tough-minded on russia. >> general mattis has also said nato, if we didn't have a nato alliance, we would have to create it, it's so important.

>> that is right e. >> >> he is surrounded for people like you. >> when he made first three calls to secretary of defense over the weekend jan stealthenberg was one of them. believes in nato. two issues here for president trump. one is do we agree to keep the sanctions on russia over ukraine? the russians are not out of eastern ukraine. the europeans need american support to do that. the second issue is are we going to continue to deploy american troops in the baltic states in very small numbers to defend those countries against putin. the signaling of the united states toward putin i think is off by trump. we will see what rex tillerson but could be the balance in this cabinet that pull trump back to a stronger position. >> president trump, to your point, president trump has always prided himself, it seems, on trying to keep people on their toes.

you never know what he is going to do or where he is going to go or what he is going to say. yet, your feel, a field vital to our national interests, diplomacy around the world, china, russia, germany, doesn't matter what country you mentioned, they depend on a sort of predictability. so what happens here when you have the two counter forces? >> i'm not trying to be cute but is there a big between new york real estate and international politics. one thing to put kim jong off balance. you should consistency you don't want to stumble into a crisis you don't want to have. putin the signaling is very weak by donald trump. >> is putin playing us? >> i think that -- >> i think he is enjoying it. >> putin thinks he can take advantage of this administration. i was encouraged by general mattis' strength over the weekend by going out of his way to say i believe in nato and i believe in these allies. we need more of that from the commander in chief. we will see if he turns in that

direction. i don't know if he will, though. >> nicholas burns, thank you for coming on the show. great to have you on. cokie roberts, thank you as well. you always come in locked and loaded. coming up, senator john mccain will be on the show and former u.s. labor secretary tom perez and democratic representative elijah cummings who has been talking with president trump on working on lower drug prices and robert costa and jeremy peters are straight ahead on "morning joe." when it comes to healthcare,

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what's in your wallet? the number one movie is split. it's about a kidnapper who has multiple personalities and the movie did so well the studio is moving ahead with the sequel. >> 23 identities live in donald's head. >> hillary clinton is a great woman and a good whop. such a nasty woman. >> only chance we have is if all three of us go crazy on this guy! >> i have no idea who these women are! i have no idea. >> he has done awful things to people and will do awful things to you. >> what will happen when he up locks the potential of his brain? >> i don't know what i said! ah, i don't remember! >> bing, bing, bum. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, january 25th. >> i got an important tweet

here. >> what do you have? >> somebody asked me am i a fan of blue suede. >> yes. >> that's it? >> my sister was. rare earth, blind spot. steely dan, yes, yes. albert hammond. you remember his big hit? >> no. >> "it never rains in southern california." though i've heard that kind of talk before. >> do we need to carry him out? >> it pours. man, it pours. a great song. >> what happened? somebody tweeted you? >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> a long time ago. >> that was, what, '71? '72? >> let's do the show now. >> you know what the show is? >> oh, god. >> we talk about whatever we want to talk about and, mike, if you want to talk -- >> they don't understand what you're saying. >> people that didn't have parents that didn't have tvs in their house or radios in their house, actually they knew exactly that. wasn't that a great song "it

never rains in southern california"? >> that was 40 years ago! >> it's still a great song. >> what does that mean? "it's 40 year ago"? >> sergeant pepper in june. glad you brought this up, mika. 50th anniversary. this summer. the summer of love. 1967. >> it's the top of the hour. >> mika, we talk about what we want to talk about. if we don't stop -- >> or mark will talk about his baby. >> week of shows in liverpool? >> it was 50 years ago. it came out in june. i think june 1st, 1967. it was 50 years ago today we can say on june 1st. can you believe that? >> 1972 people were saying sergeant shriver's lonely hearts club band when he was running for governor. >> you're just making that up now! mika, this has gone off the tracks. mike is making stuff up. >> mike, please. let's don't make it worse. >> as we go to break. thank you. >> i'm just going to ask mark

for baby pictures. >> how is your baby doing? i like him. he is funny. coming in a week and i'm doing the news with him. >> did you make him out after sir paul? >> a little bit of the logic there. >> senior writer at politico joins us, jake sherman. he has interesting news. >> where were you in 1979? >> he wasn't even born! >> "the new york times" reporter jeremy peters as well. was not born. >> was not born then. >> political report for "the washington post" robert costa and also not born yet. >> jake sherman, you know i wanted donald trump and mika wanted donald trump and i think all of us in our bubble wanted donald trump. >> what? >> and his inaugural speech to be gracious towards hillary, to be gracious towards all of the presidents who were there. >> give us our place in history. talk about where we are going

and maybe some positive things about america? fundamentals? >> you actually had some pretty positive poll numbers suggesting that americans actually liked the speech. >> what? >> tell us about it. >> it definitely resonated. if i knew we were talking about music costa and i could talk about the grateful dead and fish. >> great song. >> 49% of people polled in our new poll thought the speech was excellent or good which is a fair number. here other striking numbers here. 51%. >> that is actually -- that's pretty darn good. >> it is. but the better number is 51% said the speech was optimistic. >> what the what? >> what? >> and 65% said the america first message really resonated with people. >> this is where the bubble got us. >> but i also think that like this also gives a pretty good insight into what the president could be talking about if he

wasn't talking about crowd size and allegations of voter fraud and all of these other things that he gets torn away on. it seems from initial polling and with all caveats about all polling, this is initial polling that there is a pretty good narrative for him to spin here. he is choosing, for the time being, to spin it alongside another pretty curious message of voter fraud and things of that nature. but he has a good story to tell, it seems, if he is willing to tell it. >> the things that disturb us, disturb the media, whether it's the crowd size narrative, whether it is the vote, the illegal vote narrative, whether it's, what is america first mean? but, you know, the dark history to america first. that's what we talk about. >> yeah. >> what americans hear is americans jobs. u.s. steel. >> pipelines. >> pipelines built in america. cars built in america.

we are not going to fight foreign wars for the next 30 years. we are not going to give nato a free ride. we are not going to give japan a free ride. all of these things. that's what americans heard in that speech, mika. and those numbers are strikingly different than what all of us saw. >> when i watch the speech, i thought there was a lot missing from it but i also thought what i thought during -- i believe it was the second debate that everybody at the table thought he lost. and i said i remember saying on the air, i think people like that. >> i thought he won the second debate in a way that nobody in the press thought. >> nobody thought. i saw the same thing in the speech. i was like, okay there is going to be a lot to like here on popular level. but i just felt like in terms of our place in history, i wanted nor but it's not about me. it's just not about me.

>> and mark halpern shows it's not about us. we are talking about the sean spicer press conference and we are talking about falsehoods, lies, untrue. whatever you want to call it. but most americans took out of yesterday, i will say this. i remember saying this in the campaign about people in scranton not skaerg abocaring a in the blank. i forget what it was. people said how do you know it? i know the takeaway for most americans yesterday was this guy is fighting for american jobs and he is fighting for u.s. steel and he is fighting for u.s. carmakers. he is even talking to the unions. republican talking to the unions. that is the big takeaway from yesterday. it's hard to sort out, though, isn't it? as mike said, so much happened. >> we have a responsibility to hold them accountable and this administration when he says things that aren't true and has to continue. i think a simple way to decode it and it works for the inaugural speech, people want

change. if someone says nato is not working or says i'm a republican but i'm talking to unions or if someone says we are going to have a big infrastructure spending bill, that is get washington working. anything that represents change people will like. >> we are going to build a pipeline. but you're going to build it with u.s. steel. and there you have something where you have the "wall street journal" going, yea! building the pipeline. boo. telling the canadians they have got to use u.s. steel. if you want to put your pipeline through aur country, then americans are going to build it. now, we can have economics professors telling us all why this is the worst idea in the world and it's protectionism and hooverism. don't tell that to the american people. you can but they are not going to listen to you. >> you want washington to be different. they want things to change. and trump, more than anything, again, the inaugural speech represented this, change and different. it may not survive over the long

term but the short term the poll should not surprise us. that was difference and people want that. >> bob costa, trump is doing in five days almost all of his headliners, including today when he is talking about build the wall which is the chant you heard at every single rally he had over 18 months and about this extreme vetting from certain countries where he believes terrorism emanates. so to people who like donald trump, he is doing all of the things he said he was going to do. >> we got a front page story in today's "the washington post" about this. jeff sessions, the attorney general nominee and steve bannon have been working with trump on these executive orders on immigration. today, trump will go to the department of homeland security and sign an executive order will starting construction for the wall and see him go after sanctuary cities and after the enforcement and trump following through with his message. it's about change and also change from when i was at the

capitol on nicaragua dinauguraty said this speech is not about running against president obama but running against president george w. bush and what they see as obama's global economic perspective and also bush's interventionism when it comes to foreign policy. they want to be different than the consensus in both parties and try to stake out some ground that allows them in a way to destroy what they see as the democratic's party of hold on the union's on the working class vote. >> after what part of what robert just told us, how much do you think is going on within the trump administration? everyone gets the change thing that is feels to people and it certainly appeals to people. he is also in the ring against an opponent that most people in this country loathe -- us, the media. how much of a factor is that in his success thus far? >> i think it's a marginal factor. in terms of trump's greater ability to pick fights with

unpopular adversaries i think it's part of the strategy and they realize that. this fight that the media got all worked up about, where he was going to put the press briefing room on the white house grounds was all designed as a diversion and to distract from the fact that -- or actually more than a distraction. it was actually a way to give trump the upper hand with a very disliked foe. they realized the power of picking these fights. but i think the bigger problem here, and even though his poll numbers on the speech may look good, the overall trend is not great. he is starting with disapproval ratings far higher than any modern president and anyone that has ever been measured as president in the history of polling. and you're talking almost device

disapproval ratings that george w. bush had. if he wants to run a campaign that is only appealing to a minority of people, high 40s and never cracking a majority support. but there is a realization among some republicans and inside the trump administration that he continue to govern like he has campaigned. >> getting to your question, mike, about the press. saturday, i was distressed, to say the least, as i think most of us were, by what was going on in the press room, the briefing room. but i get texts from people loving what they were saying. sean spicer going after the media. so to answer your question, i speak for myself, i don't evennd how loat understand how loathed the media is out this until something like that happens. just so off base from what a lot

of people are thinking. >> look. right now it's going to be a long count in terms of we are in the ring with this president but there is a lot of fierce opposition to what the media does and supposed to be doing. we are supposed to be unafraid but on the policy basis, forget the personalities, the policies of these administration. would you agree? >> i would agree. it shows three hours and may need to go to six. there is so many strands every day. yesterday in the briefing, sean spicer was asked repeatedly if there was massive voter fraud according to the united states shents this be investigated? sean said, we will see. moments ago the president has addressed in a tweet, the first of at least two. the first one says i will be asking for a major investigation into voter fraud including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal and dot dot dot. so more. you will see if he calls for a major investigation.

but this is, in theory, a good sign, because there needs to be accountability. he can't make an accusation like that. now he says they are going to look into it. >> bob? >> i was at the capitol yesterday. the republican party are falling in line. the speaker and others in the house are saying they don't agree with the idea that there is this widespread voter fraud but even leader mcconnell said yesterday while there are some element of fraud out there. you don't see the republican party which controls congress going against this president on this voter fraud issue in a big way. >> bob, how does congress feel about the use of executive order? president trump, obviously, not the first. you can go back through a ton of them including president obama. how do they feel he has conducted business the first days going around congress? >> they are a little uncomfortable about it, willie. at votes last night and maybe jake knows about this too, he was there. a lot of them say we didn't like it when president obama had these orders but a fear among

the rank and file lawmakers. you don't like executive orders but are you tweeting against trump now and are you ready for a war with him? the base seems to love what he is doing on immigration and regulations and health care on these orders. if you pick a fight with him you got to be ready to wage the fight and a lot of them don't want to do that. >> let me say this really quickly. i agree with jeremy peters and this will be good chance to go back to that politico poll. his disapproval rating has been very low coming in but it's been low, in part, because he has been picking fights during the transition with merle streep, john lewis, et cetera. all of these side issues. you watch. jake sherman, i'm not asking for your opinion. i know it's not your job to give it. but if you take the poll that you just showed us from the speech, i guarantee you those numbers are going to go up. talking about u.s. steel, talking about manufacturing. he just has to stay focused on

this. how much of this is a concern, jake, to staff members? keeping him focused on the issues that actually will drive his numbers up and not the distractions that would drive them down? they drove them down during the transition. >> a huge concern in the white house. also a huge concern on capitol hill where members of congress fortune go up and down with the president's tweets and his misses. one other thing i didn't mention is that 61% of people in this poll believe the u.s. government should only buy from american companies, which is another kind of on the same narrative. i want to follow up on two points that bob said. i think republicans are okay with trump using executive orders to undo what obama did. i think they see that as kinds of a quid pro quo. one interesting thing in our poll the member of congress whose approval rating is the highest, the only leader that is not under water is paul ryan, the guy who stands up to the president the most. so i think that is an

interesting thing to keep an eye on, even though ryan and trump are getting along for the time being and are trying to patch up their kind of tumultuous relationship. paul ryan is still, by far, the most popular member of congressional leadership. >> jake, on that poll of donald trump, the 49%, do we have any sense of how voters felt after president obama's inauguration? in other words, is that a good number or just better than we might have expected for donald trump? >> i think it's about what many presidents get. i think -- listen we live in a divided country. >> which is better than expected? >> for sure. we live in a divided country so 50% of the country are not going to agree anyhow. >> obama also had 68% approval ratings coming into his first term. it's extraordinary. >> i think these are pretty amazing numbers. >> no. obama's numbers were huge. i think the thing that surprises us the most about this and why the numbers, mike, i think so high, considering what we

expected is the man sat the town on fire in that speech. everybody behind him rhetorically, he laid waste to everybody behind him. it was to those of us that have been around washington a long time and believe that you extend the hand to those that you defeat, it was horrifying. >> michelle obama's face said it all. >> americans, though, did not agree. according to this poll, they actually liked what they saw there. >> one of the issues that we are going to have to try and understand more so than we do now and it's going to drive his numbers, i think, i feel, it's how do people get their news? and what do they think is news? and i would be willing to bet you that the vast majority of people as opposed to another editorial or front page story in "the times" "the washington post" or they will hear the one snippet we played a couple times already we played and played

yesterday of the president of the united states saying and the pipeline we are going to build it here and pipelines build by u.s. steel with american steel. >> my god. >> i got to interrupt you because as you said this morning when you were coming on the air. >> talking about the incoming thing like a fire hose. >> going so fast. we can't talk about -- refuges swches we wa as much as we want to and donald trump tweets this. the president of the united states tweets this. i will be making my supreme court pick on thursday of next week. thank you. exclamation point. drop the mike! we are all laughing! the pace is dizzying. >> the volume of the news is staggering. >> trump is like bill clinton in a couple of respects i think that are important. one there is always a parallels of pauline policy. trump knows i could have the

worst day in the world. saturday, pretty bad day. monday, tuesday, wednesday, he can turn it all and he has the confidence that bill clinton everybody is counting him out he turns it around. >> can i stop you there before you go to your next point? every time you say something like that, of course, everybody goes, you're normallizing him! we are trying to put proper context to something. over the past couple of weeks, my mind has been going more and more to the clinton comparison. i remember, i think it was richard reeves talking about john kennedy versus ike. ike believed in the pyramid. clinton, at the beginning, believed he was at the center of power and all of these arrows were going to him and rfk did and it caused chaos as it did with bill clinton. and my mind kept going back to that, donald trump and bill clinton's management styles. guys that don't sleep. guys that love the job. guys that are going to work 20 hours a day and guys are up late at night and guys talking to

aides nonstop and calling you at 2:30 in the morni 12:30, what do you think about this or that? so many comparisons to bill clinton 1993 as far as management style and energy, unlike george w. bush and barack obama who were a bit ambivalent. well, i'm doing this. i'm a bit above it. i want to watch "sportscenter" at night or at 6:00 when president obama said i'm done where my job and go up and be with my family. that's not bill clinton and that is not this guy. >> bill clinton said knock me down i pop back up and what trump does. the triangulation of playing the inside and outside game simultaneously. trump can bash paul ryan in public and have a private meeting with him and try to get stuff done. people underestimate his inside and outside of the game. >> jeremy peters, when grand plans turn into reality, go. >> so what we are dealing with in terms of trump's white house right now are the knowns.

everything that has happened pretty much for the most part has been the part of the trump hundred day plan. what is going to be a huge test for him is when the unknowns happen and these face all new white houses with bill clinton, it was waco, texas. with george w. bush, he bombed iraq a few weeks into his presidency. with obama not only is the economy collapsing but somali pirates hijack captain phillips. there is always going to be a test of the presidents in the first hundred days. kennedy, cuban missile crisis. that is what i think is so risky about trump's approach so far is that what happens when that unknown happens and what happens when you are dealing with a president who is so unpredictable and has to shoot from the hip approach that his advisers can't even really contain? >> and that is why if it is a foreign crisis, it is so good that this president has james mattis, mike pompeo, rex

tillerson, and you can expect general kelly to also be a part of that discussion. and we should thank, as a country, the united states congress for making sure that the first people they approve were -- are foreign policy leaders who were going to be called upon if that unexpected crisis happens. >> and thank bob gates for recommending them. >> yes, we thank bob gates. >> gates was fascinating yesterday. jeremy peters, happy birthday! >> is it jeremy's birthday? >> yes. >> thank you. >> he's 10! >> i know you're a hammond fan. for you as we go to break, we are going to be playing "it never rains in southern california." >> cutie! >> it did this week. >> jeremy peters, happy birthday. robert costa and jake sherman, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," senator john mccain will be joining us. congressman elijah cummings will be joining us.

>> elijah has been talking to donald trump, i guess? >> i hand it to him. he is looking for places where they can work together. that needs to happen for more democrats. >> turn it up! >> we will be talking to him about it. this is jeremy's birthday song. tom perez is running for dnc chair and will join us as well. we will be right back with more "morning joe." ♪ ♪ if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis isn't it time to let the real you shine through? introducing otezla, apremilast. otezla is not an injection, or a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. some people who took otezla saw 75% clearer skin after 4 months.

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it's so painful for you guys. >> we are not keeping it moving if you play sugar magazine know la. >> i love that. blossoms blooming. >> she doesn't know that grateful dead song. >> i drove through the berkshires driving through college and playing the grateful

dead. >> who did "jackie blue"? >> ozark mountain blue devils. >> you're right! >> donald trump announced his announcement for supreme court pick is coming on thursday of next week. yesterday he convened bipartisan senate leadership to discuss the supreme court vacancy and in the wake of the stonewalling of president obama's nominee merrick garland. senate majority lead senate minority leader chuck schumer said the seat of justice scalia could be kept open indefinitely if his nominee is too far out the mainstream. his colleague tried to explain to schumer the difference. >> there is a big difference between not approving a supreme court nominee in the middle of a highly contested presidential election and the beginning of a four-year term. under clinton, ginsburg and breyer, no filibuster. under obama, sotomayor and

kagan, no filibuster. that is apples and apples. first term, new president, supreme court vacancy. what we hope would be that our democratic friends will treat president trump's nominees in the same way that we treated clinton and obama. >> mark halpern, he suggests nothing to see here and move along, move along. not the case? >> filibuster would be extraordinary and i think it will happen but with the republicans, extraordinary denying president obama the ability and the right to nominate -- even a hearing for a supreme court nominee. >> has that happened before? >> not exactly like that in that length of time that way. i think it's going to be a real challenge for them to find the democratic votes they need to overcome a filibuster and if he nominates the names of people they are talking about, i'm not sure will end this way but i think you could see a log jam and i think it will be hard to overcomt pressure on even the conservative red state democrats

to hold in line and not vote to overcome the filibuster. i think will be pretty strong. >> joining us from capitol hill is hallie jackson. >> first up a guy, neil gorsuch who is fairly young and named a lot and kind of a conservative favorite for the possibility here. he has been compared on the bench to justice scalia which wins him a lot of praise from conservatives. you've also got -- see him on the screen there. thomas hardeman and strong on gun rights and rulings have sided with law enforcement and judge william pryor. he is still in the mix and maybe not in the top two but his name is still out there and he could potentially be a little bit more controversial but a strong conservative favorite. i think i was having a conversation with somebody who is close to the president who

said, yeah, they like judge prior and judge gorse ich and like thomas hardiman and understand and acknowledge those folks don't have a ton of adversity between the three of them. i said what about diane sykes? they said she is not high on the list. >> any symbolism to the chirping birds? >> i don't know. >> this is hallie jackson. thank you. joining us from baltimore. >> i am confused. what did that mean. >> there were chirping bird. >> spring is coming? >> the dawn of something new? >> i thought i'd bring it up. i heard them. did you not hear them? i'm hearing it. >> one of those grateful dead shows you went to! >> there is something going on. >> i hear noises! >> okay. >> joining us -- >> let's go to the ranking member on the oversight and governor reform, democratic

congressman elijah cummings. great to talk to you. >> good to be with you. >> you had said last week on this show you asked the president of the united states, we can fight about what we fight about but you said, mr. president, i want to work with you on reducing drug prices. have you been in touch with him? >> that's right, that's right. yes, we talked the other day at the inaugural luncheon. he made it clear he wanted to meet with me with regard to prescription drug prices. so, joe, i want to thank you all for giving that opening to president. i know you're watching. i'm looking forward to meeting with you. >> willie geist? >> can you shed some light on what the two of you discussed and if you were encouraged meeting him face-to-face? >> good question. i was encouraged on this particular issue, but, you know, if i get an audience with the president, i'm going to talk about a whole lot of other issues, too. one of which has been bothering

me all night and that is this whole thing of a gag order on federal employees. as you know, our committee, the oversight committee is over all of government and we depend a lot on whistle blowers. i want to make sure all of those federal employees who have anything they want to say to congress, because there is some confusion as to whether they can talk to us, i'm telling you the law protects you and i will do every single thing in my power to make sure you're protected. call me. i want to talk to you. >> i'm curious your reaction and message for the president will be when you sit down with him on this issue of voter fraud. you had sean spicer at the press conference yesterday saying it's a belief of the president that millions of votes were cast illegally the last election and now just in the last few minutes, he tweeted out he wants to launch a formal investigation into it. >> well, i would tell the president, i have already beat him to the punch. our oversight committee, today, is sending out 50 letters to 50

attorney generals all over the country who basically have said that there is no real voter fraud. the thing that i worry about with this argument about voter fraud is it gives the republicans and others another tool and another reason to justify to the public of denying people the right to vote. and there are people who have not been -- had the right to vote. we got people stang in lined five hours after the voting booth closes. that is not american. again, the president can join me and my staff and we will show him that there is no voter fraud. the thing i do want him to do, i want him to investigate are all of the people who don't get the chance to vote, who have been denied the right to vote. and i would give him more advice and that is when he talks to paul ryan, ask ryan to bring up the voting rights act so that we can strengthen it after it has been basically gutted by the supreme court. as you can see, i'm passionate about this, because is this is not about donald trump.

this is about the soul of our democracy. there are people who are worried and all i want to do is that we save that democracy. >> five days in what encourages you how the administration is going and what most worries you? >> i like the idea what he did with regard to the unions. i'm a big union fan, working with them. i like the idea he has reached out with regard to prescription drugs. i like the idea that during the campaign, he said that he was not going to cut social security or medicaid and seems it may be shifting. what i don't like is how we have gotten distracted. you all have been saying it all morning. donald trump, the president, can be a great president. but every time he does something good and positive, then we move over to these things that are trivial. i mean, as i left my house this morning, a lady comes up to me, she is worried whether she can

get treatment for her breast cancer. on my way here i see people getting up at 4:00, 5:00 with their kids in their arms and going to babysitters. they don't want to talk about how many people were in a crowd one day and who was there the next day! they want to be focused. because their lives depend on it. they have to live this life every dichlt that is what matters. elijah, it's fascinating. you talked about a woman coming up to you being concerned about health care treatment. i've got republicans -- i had a birthday party for andrew last week and i had a couple of republican friends there who were asking me do we still -- we got a preexisting condition. i'm on obamacare. what am i going to do? because the health insurers in the state are dropping all of these people. we have had so many things that we have talked about this morning. we haven't even talked about congressman tom price's hearing

yesterday which was absolutely fascinating. it was one of the more dramatic hearings i think i've heard in quite sometime. the question of are you going to replace obamacare with something that makes sure that everybody that you talk to and everybody that i talk to that is getting treatment for obamacare that couldn't get treatment elsewhere, are they going to still be able to get that under this administration? >> a lot of these, joe, are trump voters. they need to understand that. >> yes, they are. >> a lot of them -- they are going to have no insurance and they will say i thought he was just kidding. no, he is not kidding! we do not have a replacement. and what i say is work with the democrats and all of us so we can repair this. >> so important. >> you talk about people getting up at 4:00 and 5:00 to get to babysitters.

we want to take a moment before we let you go here to continue to send our thoughts and prayers to the family of your long time congressional staffer katie malone. obviously, we know the story here. she lost six of her young children in a devastating house fire yerlt this month in baltimore. we know your office is working around the clock to help this family. we wanted our viewers to know they can help as well by visiting the go fund me website. i have it here for you. it's on the screen now. >> go ahead. >> we will put the information on our website for you. i know there is limitations to what you can do so we want to let people know. so far, the go fund me page has raised over $325,000. this family, there is two children, i believe, or three that survived. three that survived. >> three survived. three survived. mika, thank you for saying that. we are now about -- katie got out of the hospital last friday and we are now about to enter the most painful stage of this process and that is we are

preparing to bury six children. it's very tough. very tough. >> all right, congressman. >> but she is holding up well. thank you all. >> it's always great to have you on. congressman elijah cummings, we appreciate it. coming up next, elijah talked about how he liked that the president was talking to union leaders who are actually going to be talking to two of the union leaders who met with president trump at the white house this week. we are going to be asking them if they are encouraged by the outreach and what they think about the president's latest executive orders and what does it mean for the future of work in the united states of america, for american workers. "morning joe" is going to be back in a moment. i don't want to live with the uncertainties of hep c. or wonder whether i should seek treatment.

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coming up, donald trump made big gains with labor union voters compared to republican presidential candidates past. we are going to take talk to two labor leaders as they look ready to work if the administration. we also will bring in someone else. former labor secretary tom perez who is a candidate for dnc chair. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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so, willie,, you know, a few people know but you started it actually. you're in the back -- you didn't really start. but -- >> lower third. >> i did. >> in graphics. >> i joined msnbc as a senior producer. >> shocking to me his numbers are actually far out pacing anything megyn kelly has ever done over there at 9:00. >> he is doing very -- really well. his numbers are up. tucker is doing well. >> what is going on? >> america is having a love affair with tucker carlson. >> he is quick and clever. everybody was concerned megyn kelly that the numbers would go down but tucker's numbers are higher than megyn? >> you guise are naughty. joining us is -- mark mcmanus

joins us. >> how are you? >> and general president of the laborers union of international america, terry. >> prime time cable news i don't have time to watch but i did last night and saw you guys on "hardball" and almost fell out of my chair. you basically were saying trump is a builder. we are a build her. >> here we are sitting in the oval office. >> we are talking all morning about the u.s. steel deal with the pipeline. i think that is something could help middle america in a big, big way. >> mark? >> i think it connects with middle america. long overdue. the president gave the right message to brother terry, myself, my members, his members and more importantly the work and folks of america on first day, first monday, brought us in and he said i'm comfortable here. i'm with builders and i'm a builder and we are going to get america off to the races and that was a fantastic thing for the president. and that was a first step.

but, you know, clearly the sec step was the second day. he followed up right behind it with the executive orders and the steel and pipe being made in america. and i think we are off to the races. and this is a a real good first couple of steps for the working men and women here. >> terry, what was your impression? on president gets inaugurated. on monday he invites mark, myself and some other building trades leaders to the white house. he spent an hour and a half with us, took us into the oval office. we had a substantive conversation about infrastructure, about energy policy, about specific projects like keystone pipeline, dakota access pipeline. what we really talked about is how do we create middle class, blue collar, good jobs. and that was the premise of the conversation in the meeting. we were extremely encouraged.

and the five executive orders, joe, that came out yesterday i think were a reflection of that meeting. less than 24 hours after we had the meeting, five executive orders that are going to put tens of thousands of construction workers to work. >> right. >> on the energy sector. a mean, dakota access pipeline, for example, there was 4500 building trades, men and women, on that job. 1100 of them being laborers. these are good, middle class jobs, and we were extremely encouraged by the executive orders, and the respect that was shown to our organizations and our members at that meeting. >> it's fascinating. i tell this story to republicans and i have for some time but back in '96 flto spent like $100 million against republican freshmen so there was a war back and forth and i would go on the campaign trail and hear union bosses this, union bosses that. a guy comes to fix my phone and he finishes and i say thank you

so much and as i'm going out he goes, congressman, we love you, shut your mouth. and i've shut my mouth since 1996 because there's this great -- and he said we are all voting for you, shut up. i've always found it fascinating that a lot of union members, rank and file, supported republican candidates and yet republican leaders were always blind to that fact and there's been this state of perpetual war between two sides where there shouldn't be a political war. yesterday and the day before it seems that's changed a bit. >> if i may, joe, i think if you separate the building trade unions, the private and public sector unions, we're private seco seco sector unions, we represent church going folks, hunter and

fishermen. we take care of our own pensions. we spent $250 million in training without any government subsidies. so the folks we represent is right down the middle. we're looking for folks right down the middle that want to build the country. it doesn't matter if they're republican, democrat or donnie deutsch party. we don't care. we do not care. >> terry, you agree with that, i take it? >> joe, to that point, we're about -- our members are about, our organization is about good middle class jobs. that is not a democratic issue, republican issue, independent issue. that's an american issue. we've always been bipartisan. we'll work with any side and every side to put our members to work to build our economy and to rebuild our crumbling transportation and infrastructure in this country. >> all right. terry o'sullivan, mark mcmanus, thanks so much, gentlemen.

let's now bring in former secretary of labor under president obama, now candidate for the chairman of dnc, tom perez. great to see you. >> great to see you guys. >> your reflexes on that conversation and the meetings that happened with the president and labor leaders, something we haven't really seen between the republican president and labor community. >> as the democratic party tries to rebuild. >> mark and terry are great labor leaders. i've spent a lot of time at the u.a. headquarters in illinois because they train the middle class and they put people to work. next thursday the president's going to nominate -- he indicated he's going to nominate someone for the supreme court. the reality is that person can hold the balance on the people's right to organize because that issue almost got resolved prior to -- >> 4 to 4, right? >> 4 to 4 decision. i firmly believe in the right to collective bargaining. mike pence when he was the governor of indiana passed a law that said that prevailing wage

is no longer there. what that means for your listeners, prevailing wage is a ticket to the middle class for many folks in the building trades. so when you eliminate that law, you're dumbing down the system. you're really promoting a race to the bottom. so next thursday is a big day for folks who care about collective bargaining, and public sector labor unions have a big target on their back and when they go after public sector labor unions, the next thing they're going to do is trying to go after private sector labor unions. i'm a big believer in the right to collective bargaining. >> willie? >> you've become the chair of the democratic national party. what's your assessment of why hillary clinton lost? what do you think democrats should learn from the presidential election? >> we have to get back to basics. i believe in data analytics, but data analytics are no substitute for good old-fashioned organizing. in wisconsin mitt romney got more votes than hillary clinton,

but every fourth october going to an ame church, that's not an organizing strategy. when you ignore rural america, you ignore it at your peril. florida is a great example. four years ago the republican party invested in 12 month a year organizing, not just in the panhandle and your neck of the woods but across the state. they estimate that they produced about 120,000, 130,000 new votes. i think the margin in floor was about $115,000 votes. >> which explains why we were all surprised about florida. >> we met our marks in florida but because of this emphasis on organizing -- and when you organize in nevada which is what they did in 2015 and 2016, you get two democratic seats, you flip the state house and senate and you elect the first latina. >> just on the supreme court nomination, would you call on as

someone who wants to be chair of the party, all democratic senators to support a filibuster for a conservative nominee? >> if they support the hard right, absolutely. >> leave the seat vacant? >> if they're going to continue to go to the hard right, you have to do that. let's face it, what they did last year was unprecedented. >> what's the message in the time we have remaining here which alex is remaining we've got to go to break for 30 minutes, the thing that if i were a democrat that would is disturb me most would be the 1,000 legislative seats that the democrats have lost. what do you do to stem that tide? >> i think howard dean was right, we need a 50-state strategy. when you work with states to make sure we're fielding candidates from school board to senate, that's how you rebuild the democratic party. we can't be the party of the west coast and the east coast and a couple states in between.

we can and must be a party in every state. >> former state secretary tom perez, thank you for being on the show. still ahead, we continue to follow the fast moving developments within the trump administration. and senator john mccain joins us live from capitol hill. hopefully he won't be freezing his -- >> whatever he said. >> -- off. this is my body of proof. proof of less joint pain. and clearer skin. this is my body of proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis with humira. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain, stop further joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. humira is the number #1 prescribed biologic

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i have behind me two pictures that were taken at about the same time of day in

2009 and 2017. which crowd is larger, the 2009 crowd or the 2017 crowd? >> senator, if you allow me to give a disclaimer that i'm not sure how this ties to omb i'll be happy to answer your question. from that picture it does appear that the crowd on the left-hand side is bigger than the crowd on the right-hand side. >> thank you. >> it's seriously like a fire hydrant of stuff coming at you. if you're conservative or if you're a liberal or whatever you are, mike, you asked me before we came on, does this guy ever sleep. that's my question. i swear yesterday had signings and things done that we debated for two years, boom, five minutes, done. what does he do? >> this is from yesterday. keystone pipeline, mexico going to build a wall. it's going to affect immigration. it's going to affect detention facilities. tpp, they spoke to that

yesterday. that involves china obviously. new settlements in israel. that's an aftereffect of it. chicago, he's going to send the feds into chicago. he mentioned the supreme court, going to have a nominee in the supreme court within the next couple of weeks. teresa may is coming from great britain. he threw out voter fraud against yesterday, 3 to 5 million people voted for him. >> also, the refugees, talking about the refugees, new person at the u.n. i mean, last night, talk about vertigo. >> how about taking a nap. >> he doesn't sleep. i had hard ball on last night and you got two union guys praising him. i'm like, wait, what? >> that's huge. >> and then here's the great thing about keystone.

yes, we will -- the pipeline can move forward. yes, we will do it. but it's got to be u.s. steel. canada, if you want to do this, got to do u.s. steel. we had all these guys, auto makers coming out and they're going, yes, we're going to build an america. you don't know where to start, what to do. if you're a liberal activist, where do you start? >> all these things that some people thought were just inflammatory campaign promises that would get him elected are now happening within the first week of him becoming president. today, build a wall. extreme vetting, remember december of 2015 we got to figure out what the hell is going on. that goes in today with an executive order. he's doing all the things he said he was going to do. >> the incoming is unbelievable. with that, we say good morning, welcome to "morning joe." mike barnacle is here along with msnbc anchor and political

superintendent, steve bernanke. cokie roberts. might be good to hear what cokie thinks of this, along with willie, joe and me. good morning, everybody. cokie, what do you think? >> well, i think that he is, as you say, going full steam ahead. several things here to worry you, however, because we did have yet again yesterday another questioning of voters, and truth telling seems to be not part of what's going on. if the reports about what he plans to do today are true, i think they're extremely dangerous for the united states of america. >> which reports specifically? >> the reports that he's going to restart the interrogation techniques off shore that the cia conducted earlier before the obama administration, the idea that he's going to shut out refugees. i mean, this is -- shutting

out -- there are 8 million children in the world right now who are refugees, 8 million. and if you shut out syrian refugees at this moment, it's like shutting the jews out during world war ii. >> let's get methodically through everything that we're talking about here so we can debate some of the policy and also some of the theatre that still keeps distracting people from what's happening here. president trump is previewing his fifth full day in office, tweeting, a big day planned on national security among many other things. we will build the wall. a senior administration official says trump will sign an executive order to construct a new barrier along the mexican border when he visits the department of homeland security this afternoon. and also one that will crack down on cities that refuse to hand over the undocumented for deportation. still unknown is what action the president will take on daca, the obama executive order granting

protection for hundreds of thousands of undocumented who arrived as children. there's also reports from reuters and the "new york times" that trump might fulfill a campaign promise by imposing a temporary ban on most refugees, as cokie was alluding to, a suspension of visas for anyone from syria, iraq, iran, libya, somalia, sudan and yemen. the "new york times" has similar reporting on this but says those details could change. >> again, this is what he promised in the campaign, and in fact, this is not as expansive as what he promised in the campaign, the first part of the campaign, the deeply disturbing muslim ban. this now is the more focused ban from countries that terrorism is rampant. >> right. it looks like this is going to be a several-day rollout here. i think today we're looking at something on the wall. right, you can accuse donald trump of a lot of things but he

said build a wall a million times. the executive order he would be putting out today on the wall, it's unclear what it's going to do in terms of building it because i think you need to get money on congress. he's also had that piece of it where he said make mexico pay for it. his critics said mexico will never fork over a check. i think we have a clue about how they're going to pull that off. it looks like there's going to be a review of the money that the department of homeland security sends down to mexico in the form of aid and essentially i think they would look to take the cost of the wall out of that and say here it is, this is supposed to go to mexico but instead we're keeping it here to build the wall. >> again mike, when i ran, i said these are all the things i'm going to do. if you want to vote for me, vote for me. if you don't, don't. after i get up there and do it, don't get angry at me because i'm telling you what i'm going to do. i found that to be the most effective persuasive thing to do. you get up there and you complete what we're talking about here, whether it's

building the wall or banning refugees from countries that they may pose a terror threat, this is exactly, as steve said, this is exactly what he promised to do 23 million times during the campaign. >> all of it is. there's nothing new in what he's done. the issue is it's literally a fire hydrant of issues pouring through executive orders. have they taken the time to think about the impact and the effect of what they're doing. as cokie raised and the "times" raises it, one of the things that he signed, according to the draft in detention policies, it's almost like a bipolar thing that he signed. according to a draft, the order and detention policies which started review of, quote, whether to reinstate the program of interrogation of high value alien terrorists to be operated outside the united states and whether such a program should include the use of detention -- >> he's going to do a study? >> yeah. but then it goes on, that

section of the draft says, but no person in the custody of the u.s. shall at any time be subjected to torture or cruel and inhumane treatment. so what are they going to do? >> i don't want to get into a debate on what torture is and is not. right now we have the army field manual. and the fact of the matter is everything that everybody wanted to do in 2002, including the democrats on the hill, suddenly in 2005 and 2006 it became abhorrent and we even got to a point where we couldn't do sleep deprivation against people that had plans to blow things up in america. they're saying we're not going to torture but we're going to do a study on this. i see absolutely no problem of doing this study on enhanced interrogation techniques. everybody can freak out but talk to people in the cia and ask them whether we should do a study on whether it's enough to

say -- because what we've done since then is we've just killed them with drone strikes and their families. >> the thing about the order is -- and you're right. study it and everything. >> study it. >> what this means is that they're going to ship some of these people to egypt. when they catch them they're going to egypt. anybody is petrified of being sent to egypt for interrogation. >> the thing about this use of executive orders and obviously president obama used it, george w. bush used it, bill clinton, fdr used it more than 3,000 times, everything is sort of temporary. all these things are built on sand. president obama can introduce one executive order and the next president undoes it. like the mexico city policy was george w. bush. president obama reversed it. donald trump reversed it. there's an interesting thing between presidents where everything is there for a couple of years and they pull it away and it might come back the next year. these aren't solid policies that

last through the ages. these are temporary policies. >> with the support of building a coalition and not just having your side vote for you. >> and keeping your eye on the ball here because we even saw, you know, senator meshly doing this crowd show sing and sean spicer yesterday. we've got executive actions being pushed through here which some might see as chilling, where we need to keep our eye on the ball of what's important here. it's hard to do. still ahead on "morning joe," senator john mccain is our guest and later barbara boxer holds court in california as she and other high profile democrats try to figure out what to do ne next. we'll have a fascinating roundtable. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. suck on and point decisively with the arm of your glasses. it is no longer eyewear, it is your wand of business wizardry.

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national association of secretaries of states say that they don't agree with the

president's assessment. what evidence do you have? >> as i said, i think the president has believed that for a while based on studies and information that he has. >> has the white house formally asked for a probe into this alleged -- >> i think, he won handily with 336 electoral votes. he's comfortable with his win. >> clarifying whether illegal ballots -- >> i think there's been studies. one came out of pew in 2008 that showed 14% of people who voted were noncitizens. there's other studies that have been presented to him. it's a belief he maintains. >> does it warrant an investigation? >> as i've noted several times, he's believed this for a long time and i think he won fairly overwhelmingly. >> i'm asking you why not investigate something that is the biggest scandal in american electoral history, 3 million to 5 million people voting illegally? >> i think we'll see where we go from here. right now the focus the president has is on putting americans back to work. >> do you believe that there was

widespread voter fraud? >> it's not my job -- >> how can he be comfortable with this win -- >> he's very comfortable with his win. >> maybe he didn't win. >> he's very comfortable with the win. >> what does that mean for democracy? >> it means that i've answered your question. >> sean spicer, it's a tough job. >> no, actually -- >> it actually is a very, very tough time. but this is, we learned a lesson on saturday. you don't go out unless you've got all the facts on your side. that's a great lesson to learn. tell your boss you can't. yesterday's lesson, you don't have to answer the question. ask me the question. >> does the president believe that 3 million to 5 million people voted illegally? >> i'll tell you, willie, what the president believes. the president believes that millions and millions of americans have to get back to work and work hard. that's why today we signed the keystone pipeline.

ask me another question. that's why we talked to the auto makers. the president believes that it's more important to talk to the union and the ceo -- >> you're not answering the question. >> i'm answering what matters. and what matters is that we get americans back to work. we're using u.s. steel and we're building plants from sea to shining sea. i'm not going to worry about it. you're obsessed on how many people voted illegally in the united states. we are obsessed with getting the american people back to work. >> you know what i'm obsessed about? the president has said this repeatedly and he said it in front of the leadership the other day, 3 million to 5 million. i don't know whether any member in that room said where did you get those numbers. but if they had 3 million to 5 million illegals voting in the election, the clinton campaign had to be among the dumbest people on the face of the earth that they couldn't get wisconsin and michigan?

they would have won. >> about lying and obsession on crowd size, i will tell you, sean spicer, i wish i could roll back five days for him. this happened because of saturday, because he's thrown off his game. he should have sat or five days watching video of press secretaries from years past learning how to do questions and answer them. as for saturday, as for saturday when he went out there and did the hostage video, he should have said, no, mr. president, if you force me to do this, i will walk out the door right now with nowhere to go with my family because i will not lie to the media and i will not represent this administration. trump would have probably backed down, and then he would have been able to do his job with his real voice. he's thrown off his game. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> in support of the shutdown during the shutdown. >> i made statements in support of the house bill to keep the government open. >> which you knew would not succeed? because it wasn't going to pass the united states senate.

>> i don't pretend to know, sir, what the senate chooses to do. >> i think it's a shameful chapter and i think it is a reason why the people have such a low opinion of us and the work we do. >> senator john mccain takes congressman mick mulvaney to task yesterday in his confirmation hearing. the senator from arizona joins us next. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient. it's using state-of-the-art simulators to better prepare for any situation. it's giving offshore teams onshore support. and it's empowering anyone to stop a job if something doesn't seem right.

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welcome back to "morning joe." this morning a big snowstorm is sitting over the midwest. for more we bring in meteorologist bill karins. bill? >> i want to show you some pictures of the area in a second. we got this video in from pennsylvania. we don't know the cause yet, usually it's water related. this is a sinkhole that opened up in montgomery county, pennsylvania right in the middle of these two yards. the pick-up truck was dangling. now let me take you to iowa. sioux city, four to five inches. we're only going to pick up

another two inches here in southern wisconsin. then the story, contributes. it is going to get quiet. old man winter is going to take a long winter nap. we're watching cool, dry air coming in. we're done with winter storms for at least a week, maybe ten days, and the temperatures are mild to start. the next two days, beautiful up in the east coast, not bad in chicago either, 42 today, warm for this time of year. then the cooler air will eventually move out and move in this upcoming weekend. it's not going to be frigid but at least it will feel like it should for the end of january which is typically one of the coldest periods of the winter. here's an illustration of how quiet it's going to be. this is the snowfall forecast. the only story is going to be the great lakes snow as we go throughout the upcoming weekend and those are areas that are very used to getting a lot of snow. coming up next on "morning joe," one of our regulars, senator john mccain. stay tuned. every tv doctor knows that

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♪ what's the highest priority,

reducing the debtor rebuilding the military? >> the number one priority of the united states federal government is to defend the nation. >> it's nice to hear that you believe they're important because you spent your entire congressional career pitting the debt against our military and each time, at least for you, our military was less important. >> and there you go. joining us now from capitol hill, chairman of the senate armed services committee, republican senator john mccain. >> senator, you look much warmer today. >> he looks much warmer. >> he looks cozy. >> senator, a lot to get through this morning. i want to start though where you were yesterday in your hearings with the possible omb pick. expand a little bit on that, your frustration with the shutdown and your frustration with him being a part of it. >> first on the shutdown, joe,

when they shut down the national parks, there's a community around the grand canyon who are the concessioners and the people that work there, we had to fly food from the food banks in phoenix up to those people because they were just left high and dry. shutting down the government is not what the american people want us to do. so those that favored the shutdown of the government did not appreciate the impact on the lives of average americans, whether it be the memorial down here or places around the grand canyon or all over america. so i just think it's a failure on our part, all of us, when we do shut down the government as far as -- go ahead. >> i was going to ask, are you still going to support the congressman for the position or not? >> i'm leaning against because when i asked him about his vote to remove all u.s. forces from

afghanistan -- by the way, i remind you where osama bin laden used to hang out -- and his answer was he volunteered to tell me it was because he ran into one angry constituent who was a veteran, that that's the reason why he voted to pull all our troops out of afghanistan, that's a lapse of judgment in my part -- i believe. so i'm very, very worried that he will continue his efforts to slash the military which has been cut by 21% in the last eight years. i don't think any of us believe that we're 21% safer. >> mike? >> senator, secretary mattis, general mattis, is on his way to asia. in asia we have several issues on the front burner, china specifically, japan, tpp being eliminated by us, the islands being built in the south china sea. what are your concerns about the united states' relationship with that section of the globe and general mattis going there --

we're in good hands with him, but what are your concerns? >> the tpp decision i think was a terrible one. a year ago i was in singapore, asked the prime minister of singapore, one of the wisest men in asia, what would happen if we abandon tpp and he says it's simple, you'll be finished in asia. the chinese are now negotiating trade agreements. they are now exerting their influence in ways which a few years ago we would never have thought, including this issue of militarizing these islands, in gross violation of all international law. so i hope that general mattis who's widely respected, will go over there and give our friends and allies some courage, but it's also a part of the world that's in turmoil. look at what's happening in the philippines today. our oldest and closest

relationship, and now we've got a guy that brags about going around and wanting to kill people that he and his police view as drug dealers. >> senator, mccain, it's willie guice. good to see you this morning. the president has issued several executive orders and today we've learned he'll issue one to review the black site detention program that enhanced interrogation that may go on inside those places. you're uniquely qualified to speak on interrogation or torture if you call it that. will you stand in the way of this executive order? >> the executive order is circumstance couple described by the law that we passed prohibiting the use of torture. even though the army field manual can be reviewed, it still does not allow to return to the use of torture, including waterboarding, and i am

confident that that -- the vote was 78-21 in the united states senate, and it specifically prohibits it. now, we look at the army field manual and might make changes, but it doesn't mean those changes can allow a return to torture. i'm happy that general mattis has spoken out against it, as has every -- general petraeus, you name them. any military leader you respect have said we should not torture people, and i'm very confident that it wouldn't stand a day in court if they tried to restore that. >> so, let me ask you, senator, i was going to talk to mike quickly but can you define torture? we had this discussion at 6:00. there has been a broad brush, everything from waterboarding all the way back to sleep deprivation, basically anything in the army field manual. the definition of torture became expansive post 2005, 2006.

what's your definition of torture and does sleep deprivation and other techniques like that, does that fit your definition of torture? >> obviously some of it depends on the extent of it but i can tell you it's the geneva convention for treatment of prisoners of war. after world war ii we tried and convicted and hung japanese and one of the charges against them was waterboarding. so look, there is no doubt, just look at the geneva conventions which we are signatories to for treatment of prisoners, and you will see that it's very well laid out there. and waterboarding is one of those that is prohibited. i'm entertained and sometimes frustrated when i have members of the senate say, oh, well, i don't think waterboarding is that bad. it's one thing to do it in practice in one of our escape innovation schools. it's something else when it's

real. >> that's why i'm asking you. we understand waterboarding -- general mattis and i think mike pompeo and others said they would not follow through on that. i'm asking about pushing back on the army field manual for things like sleep deprivation. >> again, it's laid out in the army field manual and which is guided by the geneva conventions. extreme sleep deprivation is certainly not allowed and, again, it is very clear and laid out and i'd be glad to send it to you. there's a bright line. >> that would be awfully kind of you. >> senator, on another topic, the president keeps insisting that 3 million to 5 million people, largely illegals, voted in the last election. i'm wondering as you're walking around douglas, arizona,

scottsdale, how many did you bump into? >> i'm absolutely sure there was not a single illegal vote in arizona. there's no evidence of that and i think that those who allege that have to come up with some substantiation of the claim. >> senator, you've been as critical of the policies and the personnel so far in this administration as any republican. i'm wondering what deference, if any, you think you owe and what you see as your responsibility as holding the executive branch accountable, as one senator from one state? >> first of all, i think that the emphasis has shifted towards the executive branch in the last eight years and i think it needs to be readjusted. second of all, on nominees, one of the reasons why i'm voting for mr. tillerson is because i believe presidents should be given the benefit of the doubt. the american people selected them to lead the country. but that doesn't mean that we

abandon our constitutional responsibilities of advise and consent. so it's a fine line, i will admit, but we have to, in my view, particularly on national security issues, including authorizations for the use of military force and others, reassert our constitutional role of advise and consent, recognizing the ptresident is te commander-in-chi commander-in-chief. >> the other executive order also in your wheel house is the build of the border wall. it's going to be expensive. do you think it's a good idea and an effective means of controlling the immigration into this country? >> i don't think a wall per se when you look at just a wall because walls can be easily breached, but i believe through the use of drones, through the use of towers that we are building on the arizona/senora border are very effective.

we do have a real severe serious problem with this mexican manufactured heroin which is coming across our border, in the view of some an epidemic and killing lots of people. so we need to really focus a lot of attention on that. and yes, we can secure our border but it isn't just with, quote, building a wall. it's with the use of technology which will give us the same kind of capability. frankly the israelis have this kind of capability. >> so we don't need the wall? >> we need a barrier. it depends on what the terrain is. for example, in texas there's the rio grande river which is obviously a barrier in parts of arizona in the mountains it's hard to build a wall and you have to use other methods. but do we have to enforce our border, yes indeed. >> senator john mccain, it's always great to have you with us. we're especially glad that you're not freezing your ass off this morning. >> warm as toast.

>> good. so glad to hear it. >> thank you, senator. a programming note for everybody. house speaker paul ryan will join gretta on "for the record" today at 6:00 on msnbc so the conversation goes on. after weeks of taunting the automotive industry on twitter, president trump sat down with chief executives from general motors, fiat, chrysler and ford motors to discuss the incentives he plans to offer companies to build in the u.s. >> we're bringing manufacturing back to the united states big league. we're reducing taxes substantially and we're reducing unnecessary regulations. we're going to make the process much more simple for the auto companies and everybody else that wants to do business in the united states. >> in a statement, g.m. ceo mary barra called the discussion very constructive and wide ranging

and that it supported strong policies in the auto industry and that it supports the environment and safety. the ceo of ford also said he was reassured by the president's economic policies. >> we're very encouraged by the president and the economic policies that he's forwarding, and i would just call out yesterday the president's decision to withdraw from the tpp. we appreciate the president's courage to walk away from a bad trade deal. >> let's turn now to cnbc sarah eisen. what are you looking at after markets closed yesterday at record highs? >> the trump rally is back on, and guess what, if this premarket action continues, futures are up 100 points, meaning if we open at these levels, that means we will finally cross that dow 20,000 threshold for the first time ever. i know i said that about a month ago when we were inching very close. we got almost there but did not

actually cross it. since then stocks have basically been marching in place, waiting for more signals from washington about policy action. all of a sudden yesterday during the session, markets got a jolt in part on some of the executive orders signed by president trump to get construction going on the keystone pipeline and dakota access pipeline. that infrastructure building is one of the three pillars of what has made this market so bullish about the trump presidency and the trump economy. infrastructure spending got the stocks and builders and commodity builders going and juiced up along with lower corporate taxes that we continue to hear from president trump and fewer regulations. investors are liking these meetings like the one you described with the big three auto makers at the white house. it's a whole new approach to governing but they like the idea that ceos are getting a seat at the table and offering their ideas about how to make american industry more friendly and create more jobs. we're also in the middle of

earnings season, guys, and we're looking at potentially the best earning season in two years. boeing just announced better quarter profit, even with the trump tweets pressuring them to lower costs of air force one. back to you guys. >> thank you so much. sarah eisen. a look at some of the other stories we're following this morning. state officials at the flint, michigan water system no longer has led levels exceeding the federal limit. that comes nearly three years after the city switched a water source, sparking a health crises. their led levels are now comparable to other sized cities. still residents are told to drink bottled water or use filters. former president george w. bush continues to recover from pneumonia while hospitalized in texas. a spokesperson says the former president is becoming more active and now can sit up. he's working with physical

therapists to regain his strength and also talking with physician staff and visitors and has started returning phone calls. former first lady barbara bush who was discharged from the hospital on monday returned yesterday to visit her husband. one day after fainting while delivering his state of the state address, minnesota governor mark dayton announced that he has been diagnosed with prostate cancer. >> i had a biopsy last wednesday down at mayo and then we received those results last friday at noon. it was confirmed that it is cancer almost certainly and that it has not spread, almost certainly. >> governor dayton who turns 70 tomorrow says that he expects to learn more from a followup visit to the mayo clinic next week but adds that he doesn't think the diagnosis will prevent him from carrying out his duties as governor. >> i had my hip surgery, i said there's no brain cells in my hip and as far as i'm concerned

there's no brain cells in my prostate either. >> that was cute, nice. he's going to be okay. up next, democrats try to plot their course in the age of trump. keep it right here on "morning joe." i realize that ah, that $100k is not exactly a fortune. well, a 103 yeah, 103. well, let me ask you guys. how long did it take you two to save that? a long time. then it's a fortune. well, i'm sure you talk to people all the time who think $100k is just pocket change. right now we're just talking to you. i told you we had a fortune. yes, you did. getting closer to your investment goals starts with a conversation. schedule a complimentary goal planning session today.

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watch him sign one of his first executive orders. all he had to do was sign his name so let's see how it went. >> we've been talking about this for a long time. thank you. okay. >> come on. [ applause ] >> that's really funny. >> willie, you notice something about donald trump's fashion sense and we have not -- i've never noticed this. >> pocket square. yesterday a pocket square. day before pocket square. i don't think i've ever seen him wear a pocket square. i don't know what to read into it. >> my speculation, someone gifted them to him or maybe he's hired a consultant. >> sean spicer wore one in the

first presser. >> we're going to be bringing in chris jansen. >> are you not interested in the pocket square gate? >> no. >> how do you feel about the pocket square with a hoodie? how does that look? >> try it tomorrow. chris has a really interesting roundtable of high profile democrats and what they think their party needs to get back into power, so we'll have that. first, here's a quick look at some of the ground we've covered so far on this busy morning. >> this is yesterday, keystone pipeline, mexico, going to build a wall, tpp, new settlements in israel. >> it's seriously like a fire hydra hydrant. >> executive orders that are going to put tens of thousands of workers back to work. >> all these things are built on sand. the next president undoes it. >> donald trump tweeted that his announcement for supreme court pick is coming on thursday of next week. >> it's going to be a real challenge for them to find the

democratic votes they need. >> taking a nap. >> he doesn't sleep. >> 51% said the speech was optimistic -- >> what the what? >> donald trump can't stand hearing that somehow he's not a legitimate president. >> you are the president. act like the president. >> this team on the inside is missing something. >> and usually that person, frankly, is the first lady. >> are you still going to support the congressman for the position? >> i'm leaning against. i'm very, very worried that he will continue his efforts to slash the military. >> president trump has a right to change policy, but he has to do so in a way that explains to our allies how we're going to relate to them. >> president, i know you're watching so i'm looking forward to meeting with you. >> we can't be the party of the west coast and the east coast and a couple states in between. we can and must be a party in every single state. >> that was former labor secretary tom perez earlier on the show who's running to be the next head of the dnc. with republicans in control of the white house and both chambers of congress, commdemoc

are facing the question, what's next. msnbc's chris jansen is looking into it and joins us from los angeles. >> all these things you've been talking about this morning, whether it's tpp, healthcare, immigration, the impact here is phenomenal. 750,000 people turned out on the streets of l.a. on saturday to protest, but how, the question is, do you turn that outrage into action? i sat down with my panel and started with a simple question. what's at stake? >> it's all on the line. people's healthcare, environmental protection. from my day job, fundamental voting rights and civil rights. we have to prepare to push back at every step of the way. >> i am ready to fight. i think that we've all got to be ready to resist to the greatest extent that we can and to hold people accountable for the policies that may be harming the american people. >> how do you take that energy from saturday, what next? >> we not only march but we

organize and we build and we strategize, and then we march to the polls. >> are you worried the democrats won't step up? >> i am worried about that, yes, because it's going to take a lot of resistance. and we need to take a page out of the republicans' playbook when it comes to this. >> the morale is low in this country, and so we need to see our elected officials, especially democratic elected officials, show up and fight. >> i really only woke up politically a year ago right before the election when i realized i had done nothing. and i do think we need leaders. i do need a leader. i need somebody to say that action that you talked about, i am awaiting that person to say, jamie, do this action. then i was a cheerleader in high school. i will action the action. >> thousands who marched on saturday have said they had never done anything like that before. so if their issue is your issue or their issue is your issue, what do you do with that? >> well, i think progressives

have been caught a little flat-footed in that we don't have the clear answers yet for exactly what everybody should do, but we're working on it. >> i want to jump in with something specific that he did on the very first damage that didn't get that much coverage. there was an order that was signed that made it more expensive now for middle income home buyers to buy homes, and as a result, tens of thousands fewer americans will do it. we have to make sure that the middle class understands he's not their friend. >> celebrities are actors. we're useful in convening people, like people will come show up sometimes just because they want a selfie. >> that's the only thing they want. >> honestly, that's true in many cases. i really just talked about what activism means to me and how -- trying to encourage people to engage in their communities on a local level for their families because i think as soon as people engage they start to feel how powerful that is. >> the risk of losing something

has awakened people. >> i think that there's a real sense here that that passion that we saw on saturday is something that can be used. the question really is in many ways who will lead on the local level. it's a different question than the big picture, certainly for the democratic party, because when i posed that question, there weren't any clear answers. one thing that kept coming up was, well, maybe there's a person out there like barack obama was in 2004 who's not necessarily on the national radar yet, but that's a real question there. who's going to kind of bring all of this passion together and move it forward. >> all right, msnbc's chris jansing, thank you very much. great roundtable. how do i say this because i think about the union guys we had on earlier and there's just -- we've got to figure out how to bring this party together. i don't think that was the entire party that we want at that table. >> the democratic party? >> yes. me, we.

not you. >> so tom perez who was on was talking about a county in iowa that went for president obama by 21 percentage points. this year it went 21 percentage points for donald trump. and the question about the march, the question about the people in that room, the question that the democrats have to face is not how do you reach people in their communities, how do you reach a county in iowa, willie, that went for barack obama by 21 percentage points and now is going -- went for donald trump 21%. >> i think the march did it. >> i don't think so. >> i do. i saw people from the midwest heading to the march. >> that group of really smart, interesting people in california, a place that doesn't have to be convinced that it has the right ideas. what you have to convince are exactly the people you talked about, and the party has chosen nancy pelosi as a leader not unexpectedly but tim ryan was another one of the choices and

he represented the youngstown, erie, pennsylvania, scranton, those communities that helped elect donald trump as president, not san francisco and los angeles. >> your instinct or very close to it -- >> having a hard time saying it. >> they've got to sit down, look in the mirror and ask themselves, how did we lose these people in iowa. how did we lose these members of the various unions, what did we do wrong, how did we lose them. >> and how did we lose -- another barack obama will not help them get back the 1,000 state legislative house seats they have lost in the past eight years. >> the party needs a center left progressive forward looking economic plan. that's what bill clinton had in '92 and barack obama had in 2008. they need leaders and ideas and the real challenge they face, we saw today on the show, tom perez says every democrat should join a filibuster of the supreme court nominees.

those union leaders were applauding donald trump. >> i will say, mika, that the biggest challenge remains, i think -- and you just talked to the union leaders -- a cultural divide between the democratic party. you say center left progressive. i'm not so sure. there's a cultural divide that bill clinton broke down and that's the type of leader i think they need. >> lurching to a stop on morning show, that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. thanks mika, thanks, joe. good morning. i'm stephanie ruhle. we have a lot of news breaking overnight. building a wall, president trump set to sign an executive order today directing federal funds to fulfill this campaign promise. >> i will build a great, great wall on our southern border. >> amid new reports he will end so-called sanctuary cities and ban -- that's right -- ban people from coming from some muslim countries. also breaking, donald trump promising to launch a major