wall power. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in whaug. the cornerstone of donald trump's presidential campaign was a promise to secure the southern border with mexico. and build a wall. in his very first speech back in june of '15, trump drew fire for this talk about the people crossing the border illegally. >> when mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. they're not sending you. they're not sending you. they're sending people that have lots of problems. and they're bringing those

problems with us. they're bringing drugs. they're bringing crime. they're rapists and some, i assume, are good people. >> a staple at every rally was a promise to build a wall and get mexico to pay for it. [ crowd chanting "build that wall" ] >> don't worry, we're going to build that wall. that wall will go up. it's going to. we're going to build the wall, mexico's going to pay for the wall. we're going to stop drugs from coming in. a trump administration will also secure and defend the borders of the united states. and yes, we will build a great wall and mexico will pay for the wall 100%. yes, we will build a wall. we will build a wall. it will be a great wall. >> well like it or not, today president trump took a major step to fulfilling that campaign pledge in a visit to department

of homeland security, donald trump signed an executive order to begin the building of that border wall. here he is. >> we're in the middle of a crisis on our southern border. the unprecedented surge of illegal migrants from central america is harming both mexico and the united states. beginning today, the united states of america gets back control of its boarders, gets back its borders. secretary of homeland security working with myself and my staff will begin immediate construction of a border wall. so badly needed. you folks know how badly needed it is. as i've said repeatedly to the country, we are going to get the bad ones out. the criminals and the drug dealers and gangs and gang members and cartel leaders. we are going to get them out and we're going to get them out

fast. >> well, still not clear how he will get mexico to pay for the wall. and while the trump white house says it will prioritize criminal aliens, what does that mean for the millions of undocumented immigrants in this country, some of whom are children? robert costa is national political reporter for the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst. m maria teresa kumar, voter latino, and msnbc center herself. john feehery is a republican strategist. i'm going to start with costa, robert costa, you're a straight reporter, cover this every day. does this sound like what trump was promising to the people when he got their votes? >> out of the jeff sessions, steve bannon playbook. put into policy through executive orders, not necessarily working through the congress. >> is there enough money in that executive order bin to pay for a wall of 2,000 miles? >> within the white house, there's confidence that this is at least enough in terms of the federal funds available to start construction of the wall.

trump's directive to all of his advisers is don't wait, work with congress on this, we're going to negotiate with pe nana nieto, the president of mexico. he doesn't want to have any kind of delay because he thinks this is the chief political promise he made during his campaign. >> does it seem to matter in people in erie, scranton, other parts of the country, that voted for him, do you think it matters he's not really going to get the mexicans to pay for it in the near term? somewhere down the line he's going to find some financial means of saying the mexicans paid for it. he's not going to bill them, he's not going to invoice them. they're not going to owe us the money legally, so why would they ever pay for it if they're not legally bound to pay for it? not even contribute to the wall. >> certainly not. however, the trump white house when asked about this, they keep telling the press that they're thinking about trade negotiations and some kind of

tariff if mexico does not pay. this could have secure consequences on mexico's economy and on the u.s. economy, but that's the kind of tactic this white house is thinking about. >> yeah, trouble was you put those walls up in terms of tariffs or grabbing money and stop the trade and therefore don't get the money. in an interview with abc news tonight, president obama said mexico would pay for the wall, here he is saying it, the president. >> will american taxpayers pay for the wall? >> ultimately it will come out of mexico, we're going to start those negotiations relatively soon and a form reimbursed by mexico. >> so they'll pay us back. >> absolutely, 100%. >> mexico's president said in recent days mexico absolutely will not pay, adding it goes against our dignity as a country and our dignity as mexicans. he says quite slimimply they'ret paying. >> he has to say that. he has to say that. i'm just telling you, there will

be a payment, it will be in a form, perhaps a complicated form, and you have to understand what i'm doing is good for the united states. it's also going to be good for mexico. we want to have a very stable, very solid mexico. >> you know, he's really talking nice about latinos there. have you noticed in his speeches lately? he did get 29% of the vote. >> he did not. >> here we go. >> no, he did not. it was not the polls. 5 4% of latinos voted early so the exit polls are talking about people that voted day of and most folks already cast the ballot. >> what did he get. >> 18%. >> who told you? >> latino decisions. >> what about objective polling? >> nate silver is going back and visiting it. i can't wait to have this conversation with you in march. >> why is it important not to say he got -- >> it's a false narrative. this is even the work that we found internally, the majority of -- >> you say he got 29% voting day. >> voting day. possibly. that's where the poll -- >> let's talk about the issue here. >> right. >> i've always been skeptical about the wall because i think

if i wanted to get here to get a job, i would come back boy boat tunnel, have a ladder. if i had to feed my family. the question is, if you want to be brutal, i know you're an advocate, if you want to be brutal in stopping immigration, stop illegal hiring because everyone is looking for the first person. they're craftsmen, know what they're doing, they're carpenters. can do all kinds of work. they're cheap and they're desperate. as long as business is looking to hire the most desperate person, male or female, they're going to overcome that wall. ladders are available. >> you hit the nail on the hid. we should be talking about wage enforcele because the reason -- >> why doesn't trump? >> it's an easy headline. it's an easy headline -- >> afraid to offend business? >> i think he's absolutely afraid to offend business. >> republicans never talk about enforcing -- stopping illegal hires. never do it. you guys don't do it. >> if you talk about e-verify, the employment thing, that actually is part of comprehensive -- the chamber of commerce will not publicly support e-verify unless the other elements come in which

include legalization of people who are here. >> i understand it has to be part of the package. >> the wall is actually politically potent. powerful. it's also a promise that trump is going to keep. believe me, what politicians want early on is a promise they've kept. mexico paying for it is going it be complicated. >> almost impossible. >> we'll see what happens. >> what's it going to look like? mar maria, i got to get a picture in my head. this is the first day we think it's going to happen. ladders we can imagine, professional painters have long ladders. >> this is the thing is that he was -- he didn't level with the american people. the majority of, you know, migration to the united states has dropped since 2008 after the economic crisis. >> not dropped enough for his people. >> it's because they live on sensationalism and they're not -- i think what we should really look at is, americans want to know who we're living with in or borders. the idea of how do we treat with the 11 million people that are undocumented that lived here for more than 15 years that have families -- >> i agree. we're not going to throw these people -- by the was, it's interesting to listening to trump because he does move the

ball a bit, moves the goal line, if you will. he's not really talking about picking up kids anymore. he's talking about picking up felons. nobody's really defending felons. go ahead. >> well -- >> go ahead, robert. let me get back on robert. on the reporting. he is sort of changing his tune from we're going to round up all these rapists to i'm going to get the real rapists, the people who are felons. your thoughts. >> there's a crackdown on people who are here illegally undocumented who have criminal records that sessions and trump have been working closely on that based on my reporting. the one ongoing debate i find intriguing, chris, inside the white house is over daca, the dreamers. that has not been addressed in an executive order because i'm told there are a lo of different opinions about the political consequences of going after that issue. >> remember the scene of gonzalez being taken out of the closet, he was taken back to cuba. that picture was terrible. once they get pictured, john, of i.c.e. guys going into people's

homes, pulling kids out -- >> you have 16 million americans right now that live in mixed status families. 16 million americans. >> meaning some are legal, some are not. >> this idea we lived in -- >> daca is a popular program if you kick those kids out, it is bad politics. and so i think there should be a debate within there and i think actually getting the border wall built actually helps trump move on daca and helps those people, those kids. >> i want to talk about one thing here. go back to john. because the big thing was the wall today. the most graphic. all over the papers tomorrow. the other thing wases sanctuary cities. you know philadelphia, new york, you know san francisco. the sanctuary cities where they tell the police, look, we don't want the latino community to think every time we go in there to look for bad guys, a robber, murderer, whatever, everybody is going to get deported because as they interview people, they're going to find out their identities and lack of documentation. so what's going to happen? looks like he's going to war with the big cities because these liberal progressive mayors in san francisco, philly and new york, like de blasio, these guys

are not going to change their tune. >> both sides want this fight, chris. democrats welcome a fight about sanctuary cities and activates their own base. republicans the same. this is a fight that trump has always talked about throughout his campaign. and there's a sense that he really wants to talk about cities. look at his tweet about chicago last night. look at his talk about sanctuary cities. he's talking about urban america as a political issue. >> how do you run against big cities? they're already 85% against him. >> first of all, there are not many republican voters in those big cities so it's easy politics for the republicans. the second thing is, if you're a police chief, you really want to be able to enforce the law and have the trust of the community to cut down crime. there's a tension here. the tension is how do you make communitieies safer and perhaps ending sanctuary city policies is not the best idea but good politics for republicans because cities are willfully not enforcing the law. >> the majority of law enforcement as john says -- >> which i agree with. >> -- they want to be able to go

into a community and say, you know what, tell me who the criminals are. >> yeah. >> when you have scenarios like secure communities which basically was a dotted line between law enforcement and i.c.e., all of a sudden crime went up -- >> because people didn't -- >> they felt uncomfortable. right. if all of a sudden if i report a crime, report a rape, report an actual crime, why am i going to call the police if i continue to deport or my daughter, husband -- >> when they come to interview you for a crime scene, they -- >> so i guess -- part of obama's modern police task force, modernization, was actually to break off that -- >> let's hear what the police have to say, the brotherhood, those guys. robert costa, maria teresa kumar and john feehery. mr. trump calls for a major investigation into voter fraud even thee thereough there's no of voter fraud. by digging into something that's not real, giving permission for republicans across the country to crack down even further on voting rights in that's a really big deal. plus, kellyanne conway is going to come here tonight. i'm going to ask her about

trump's big moves today on illegal immigration. the "hardball" roundtable on the big stories of the day tonight. trump's border wall with mexico. trump's taking the steps to make good on a big pillar of his campaign. like it or not. finally let me finish with the death of a beloved actor, mary tyler moore. every saturday night, she was great. this is "hardball" where the action is.

mone hundredts thousand times a day, sending oxygen to my muscles. again! so i can lift even the most demanding weight. take care of all your most important parts with centrum. now verified non gmo and gluten free. california governor jerry brown's vowing to stand up to the federal government under president trump. here's governor brown in his state of the state address yesterday. >> the recent election and inauguration of the new president has shown deep divisions across america. while no one knows what the new leaders will actually do, there are signs that are disturbing. we've seen the bold assertion of alternative facts. truth, civility, working together have been obscured or even swept aside.

democracy doesn't come from the top. it starts at the bottom. it spreads in the hearts of the people. and the hearts of americans, our core principles are as strong as ever. >> well, governor brown promised california would take the lead on issues like climate change, immigration and protecting health care. and we'll be right back. so they can detect and repair corrosion before it ever becomes a problem. because safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better.

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welcome back to "hardball." despite the assurances of press secretary sean spicer yesterday that the president was comfortable with his victory in november, donald trump today called for an investigation into unsubstantiated claims, his claim, that massive voter fraud occurred in the 2016 election. the president tweeted early today, "i will be asking for a major investigation into voter fraud including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal, those registered to vote who are dead. depending on results we will strengthen up voting procedures." this comes after trump told

lawmakers monday he believes h he lost the popular vote because 3 million to 5 million undocumented illegal immigrants cast votes illegally, had no rights to vote as citizens but they did, saying the proposed investigation strikes at the foundation of the democratic society, however, the "washington post" writes that trump is chipping away at a shared public confidence and a system that is fundamental to a representative government. for no apparent reason other than he's bothered by the fact that although duly elected and now in the white house, he lost the popular vote to hillary clinton by almost 3 million votes. well, joining me right now, longtime republican strategist ed rollins. we're glad to have him. democratic pollster cornell bulch, author of "black man in the white house." ed, i haven't heard from him in a while. i'm glad to have you on. >> thank you. >> let me tell you, we all know about politics. i was in philly when they got the vote out, handed out the street money. it's all politics. people when they vote, they vote. what's trump talking about with 3 million to 5 million people in the country illegally, that would mean if it's 5 million,

half the people in the country illegally got out and voted, found a way to get somebody's name on a ballot, on a registration list and they pretended they were that person. that would be the most extraordinary conspiracy in history. i mean, 5 million people of the 10 million people in the country illegally voted and he says for hillary. how could that have happened? technically. >> first, it didn't happen. it's an absurd charge to make and to a certain charge diminishes from his election which i thought he ran a brilliant campaign and got states republicans haven't gotten since '84. >> what's his beef? >> so i think the key -- well, i think his beef is it's just hard for him to believe anybody could beat him anymore. >> yeah. >> i think if he really analyzed this election, california was the key. she had a 3 million plurality in the country in votes. he lost california by 4.3 million votes. it's not a two-party system anymore. it's pretty much a one-party there. it's a big, giant victory. that's where it was. competition statewide for any

republican and he didn't compete if, there -- >> cornell, there's a lot of -- i don't like psychobabble, even though i engage it in, must be something psychologically about his small hands or -- i don't think that -- i think he loves to win the anymores argnumbers . the other question, scary, we brought it up when we started the show tonight. people will use this in state legislatures to start screwing people. voter i.d. cards. things like that they may not be able to sell otherwise. >> that's the fear. it first it's great to be on television with ed again. it's great to see ed. that's the real fear here. the white house, there's reporting the white house is floating more restrictive voter identification laws, et cetera. but that's the fear here is that, you know, i liked dan balz' piece. it's a lot more diabolical going out right knew, henow, he's understanding 46% of the vote, you will probably never see a president with less than a plurality of vote again. what we're seeing in state after state, north carolina being

front and center of that, is we're seeing, you know, republicans not being able to compete for a broader swath of the electorate so they're making it harder to vote. >> republican governor did get knocked off in this election. doesn't make them unbeatable. >> but, no. i believe in a free market of political ideals, too. i think republicans should be competing for diverse voters. but right now they're not. so you're seeing in state after state, they're making it harder to vote. i think this is him putting it across the bough from a national level, we're going to make it harder to vote, going to restrict voting rights in this country. >> many say there's no evidence to warrant one. here goes. >> i've already commented on that. i've seen no evidence to that effect. i made that very, very clear. >> twhhis is not about voting anymore. it is about him. the more he does this, the more troubling it will be for his presidency. >> i think this is a huge distraction from really what we ought to be focusing on, which

is getting the president his cabinet so he can get to work for the american people. this really seems like a rabbit trail to me. >> there's no evidence of that and i think that those who allege that have to come up with some substantiation of the claim. >> ed, it's ludicrous to this extent, here's a guy who's made billions of dollars, don't know if it's 11 or what it is, lots of money by flknowing how to wo with numbers. how to put a building up, how to come out with a profit margin, knows what square footage is, knows it all in terms of numbers, numbers, numbers yet he makes arguments that are not credible. first of all, for days he argued over how many people were on the mall. okay. argue how many people were on the mall. when he was losing that argument, he said, no, how many people were watching worldwide? that's a different argument. now it -- the other day it was how many illegal people here voted illegally to we have voting irregularities in this country generally. he keeps changing the measure we're talking about. it seems like -- is he just wearing us out? >> well, i don't. know if he's wearing us out,

he's wearing some of us out that have to defend it. i think the critical thing here, there is some irregularities but it's not about -- you know, each of us know little races that have been lost by a couple hundred votes here or there. the critical thing, 2 million people who died between elections, they don't get off the polls, they don't vote a couple times. move from california to new york, you may change, be registered in two places. that doesn't mean you vote in two places. those are all done statewide. there's 50 states. secretaries of state have the responsibility for elections. there's thousands of counties. those people -- there's no wholesale voter fraud in this country and i think for him to go into two states and make this challenge will basically make a lot of people think the system doesn't work and it does work. >> what do you make, cornell, of the task force idea? iimizing -- the white house doesn't go out and do things that advises the president what policy should be. what agency of government would be out there to check on the voting patterns of this country? >> it doesn't matter because in the end --

>> states run elections, anyway. >> right. states run elections. but i think it's a boogeyman, right? he's creating this boogeyman for his vanity but for more restrictive voting -- >> you know what, think it's going to lose this one. i will see. >> i like the republican senators coming out -- >> i think they're embarrassed. they're not going to -- they don't believe in news speak like george orwell, just because he says it doesn't make it true. sean spicer says he doesn't believe this stuff, either. we'll have kellyanne conway on in a minute. thank you, cornell. ed, it's great to have you on the snhow. up next, donald trump's big move tay on illegal immigration. he's making good o what he promised during thecampaign. trump white house counselor kellyanne conway is going to join us here next, in fact, very soon. this is "hardball," where the action is. vere plaque psoriasis isn't it time to let the real you shine through? introducing otezla, apremilast.

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump began his sixth day in the presidency promising a major investigation of voter fraud. in the afternoon, he signed two executive orders on immigration, one would push to fulfill his campaign promise of building a wall between the u.s. and mexico. the second would go after sanctuary cities, places that shield illegal immigrants. joining me right now, white house counselor kellyanne conway. kellyanne, thank you so much. i want to start off by something that is soft and nice and appropriate. i love the fact that the new president met with all those labor leaders. i love the fact he met with construction trades guys. not public employees and all

that stuff, but guys and women, i guess, who are going to build this new america. whose idea was that and is he going to keep doing it? >> that was the president's idea, chris. i was thrilled to be part of that meeting and subsequent picture taking session in the oval office where he asked those labor union leaders and workers, how many of you have been in the oval office before of the white house? only three hands went up. i thought that, itself, was remarkable because we're always told, chris, these labor union heads and the workers, that you and i grew up with in pennsylvania and in new jersey, that they're democrats, they should be here with the democratic president. donald trump looks at them as people who are literally building our nation back up and revitalizing it and it was a fabulous far-reaching meeting, very mutually respectful. talked about job creation, it was the carpenters, pipe fitters, the ironworkers, the plumbers. really exciting to have them here and it was on the same day that earlier in the day he had manufacturing ceos in the white house also discussed with them how to reinvigorate american

manufacturing, keep those factories and the workers here in the u.s. which, of course, you see is already happening. >> that's great because we had terio on last night, mark mccannen on, too. anyway, let's talk about the wall. just a specification, the specs, is this going to be wall to wall? is this going do cover the 2,000-mile border? a full wall? >> yes, the executive order today that was signed was for a physical wall to be constructed on the southern border. i assume those who are tasked with the actual construction, chris, will decide what materials are used, but this is his chief centered campaign promise -- >> i get it. >> -- of many months and at the same time let's make clear what this does. this executive order also expands the detention space for those illegal immigrants who are caught trying to cross over the wall. we just have to stop this incessant flow of people and of drugs across our border. it also allow s additional tool and resources for our agents on

that wall who are working along the wall, border security, and our law enforcement officers who are doing their best often in very difficult and dangerous circumstances, chris, to comply with the law. so it is building the wall but also allows the tools that we need to make the wall real. we are a sovereign nation. we've been spending billions of dollars protecting other nations' walls and borders. it's time we do the same for our country. >> let's talk about, football, the secondary, what are you going to have for nose wthose w get through the wall, they overstay their visas. is the trump plan ultimately going to include a feature that says no more illegal hiring of people who come here desperately, willing to work for nothing practically, is there going to be some feature to stop that? >> well, the president has said and he on a different network is giving a an interview tonight. those who are here illegally, criminals, they're out of here.

there is no consideration. >> sure. >> we have to start there, a very important place for all of us to start. he's also talked about the fact that he's putting the american worker first. meeting with the manufacturers and ceos, chris, or his immigration policy, saying this nonsense, a lot of billionaire elitists love to say, that illegal immigrants are here to do the jobs americans just won't do. we've heard from so many americans, chris, saying i would do those jobs but you have to allow me to fairly compete for those jobs. you're not going to take $5 an hour around the table. >> how do you stop big shot businessmen from hiring cheap illegal labor? nobody is doing it right now. it's not happening. business doesn't get away with it. some guy running a restaurant in chicago, he's in charge of immigration right now. he'll call up somebody, say get up here, i need a dishwasher and pay them nothing. you know how it works. is trump going to stop that? >> yes, i'll tell you why.

instead of raising the number of illegal immigrants who do the jobs, restaurant jobs you just described, chris, whoy don't we raise the wage? >> how about minimum wage? >> make it more competitive in own places of business do retract and retain american talent. if you're an illegal immigrant, you're going to compete with american workers for those same jobs. i agree with you completefy if what i hear you saying that's is time to hold accountable those employers who are violating the law. you know, the conversation before donald trump came along about fairness was what's fair to the illegal immigrant? the question now is what's their to the american worker, also what is fair for us to ask as employers? are they just meant to sign up for e-verify, enroll in that program and wash their hands clean of never having to verify people's credentials or pay what's fair and let that american worker compete for those jobs? the other thing i just want to throw in there, because you and i would relate to this given our backgrounds, this president also has committed himself to

expanding educational, vocational, technical opportunities. that's huge. because not everybody is college material. not everybody should run to a four-year college and be faced with a mountain of debt and very few job prospects. get a skillss certificate in hih school, become a welder an pl e carpenter and you'll have jobs waiting for you in this country. >> two issues, there's the general problem, if there is one, and there's always some irregulari irregularities. we hear about irregularities once in a while. this idea of 3 million to 5 million in this country illegally voting, there's 11 million in the country el leg illegally, that's wrong. only 10 million are of voting age. it would mean half the people in this country illegally of voting age voted. that's as high as a percentage, kellyanne, of people here legally voting.

5 million came into the country illegally and voted? the numbers don't add up. do they do you? do you think the numbers add up? >> the way you described them is different than the president is looking at them in this regard. he's talking about the integrity of the process, he's talking -- no, no, please, i've discussed this with him. let me speak. he is talking, chris, about one person, one vote integrity. he wants to make sure that in our registration process, people who don't qualify do be regis r register registered, illegally, are dead, should have been purged from the rolls a long time ago. >> sure. people die all the time. that's why they have to be rescrubbed all the time. let me ask you about the illegal immigrant thing. he spent the weekend, poor sp z spicer doing a good job, i think. >> he's doing a great job. >> he's out there saying, he's being asked by jeff zell ny, yo know, of politico, do you believe the president? everybody is getting forced to this truth test.

do you believe 3 million to 5 million people came into the country illegally and voted? i think these numbers are very hard to defend. >> chris, this is why the president today called for an investigation. and i really credit him for doing that because people constantly, in politics and on tv, constantly say things and have no backup, no forward-thinking measure to either prove them and he's called for an investigation. so let that take hold. tomorrow at the retreat in our hometown of philadelphia, the house and senate republican retreat where the president is going to address them, he's going to talk a little bit further about the mechanisms he wants to put in place to at least investigate the integrity of our elections. >> okay. good luck at the retreat. good luck with sean spicer and the whole new operation. >> doing a fabulous job. >> effective communication. you're a good part of it. kehllyanne, we'll disagree about the 3 million to 5 million number because it doesn't square with the number -- >> all i'm saying the president wants an investigation. we should have an investigation. >> let's find out -- >> when there's no -- look, the

guy won fairly and squarely. chris, there's no trophy, no blue ribbon for winning the popular vote. i think we found that out. all the graphics on msnbc said road to 270. >> i'm with you. >> so he won. he won big. 306, you know -- >> i'm with you on that because what we don't count hits in baseball, we count runs. thank you very much. kellyanne conway. >> thank you, take care. up next we'll get reaction to what we heard tonight from kellyanne conway. the "hardball" roundtable's coming here next. and you're watching "hardball" right now, where the action is. will your business be ready when growth presents itself? american express open cards can help you take on a new job, or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com.

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump signed an executive order today directing the department of homeland security, as i said, to use existing funds, catch that phrase, to begin the construction of a border wall, one of his most popular campaign promises for his supporters. >> i will build a great, great wall on our southern border and i will have mexico pay for that wall. mark my words.

>> well, president trump as you heard right there repeatedly said mexico would pay for the wall. here's what the president told abc news' david muir today. >> are you going to direct u.s. funds to pay for this wall? will american taxpayers pay for the wall? >> ultimately it will come out of what's happening with mexico. we're going to be starting those negotiations relatively soon. and we will be in a forum reimbursed by mexico. >> they'll pay us back? >> absolutely 100%. >> the american taxpayer will pay for the wall at first? >> all it is, we'll be reimbursed at a later date from whatever transaction we make from mexico. >> mexico's president says mexico, of course, will not pay. that's a direct quote. the nbc news/"wall street journal" poll out last week said 55% of americans do not want a wall, just 21% say it's an absolute priority. the pew survey from august shows that border security breaks down among partisan lines, of course. no surprise here. 69%, 7 out of 10 republicans sy

strengthening border security should be. let's bring in the "hardball" round fable. andrew sullivan, contributing editor to" new york" magazine, became an american citizen last december. wrote the cover story on "becoming an american ins ablg of trump." jennifer ruben with the "washington post." clarence page is a columnist for the "chicago tribune." so the wall. >> we'll wait and see. >> it's for people who don't like illegal immigration to whatever degree of passion. it's almost like we build it and they won't come. it's the opposite of the field of dreams. because i don't believe a wall will stop a person looking for a job. they will find a way, if they're trying to feed their kids, they'll get a ladder, a tunnel, there are a huge number of tunnels but also i think they're going to overstay their visas and everything else. >> nothing really happened today. executive order says he wants to build this wall. >> he said -- >> has no funding for it yet,

the congress has not appropriated it. >> doesn't he have to build it now? >> i think he has to try. we don't know if he's -- >> who is going to stop him from building this wall at this point? democrats have no power. >> people who say they can't spend the money. at some point soon they're going to raise the debt limit. going to have to raise the debt limit. >> do you think the tight-fisted guys in the speaker's office are going to say you can't deliver on the reason you were elected -- >> of course they will at some point. this is a legitimate policy of his. he campaigned on it. he will do it. the point today is that nothing really happened. what we have to do is wait and see. is it a wall? is it a fence? is it keeping people out? is it not keeping out? the thing about this today was it's all pr. what we have to do -- >> didn't he do the keystone today, did he dig the first shovelful today? >> it was ceremonial. i agree entirely with andrew. >> it's going to happen. things don't happen like that in the federal government. congress has to appropriate it. there are a slew of environmental protection. remember the keystone pipeline. how long that was delayed. >> these are republicans. >> yeah.

these things take time and we'll see. it's also you have head of hhs who says a wall's not going to work, by the way, you just get a ladder, a taller ladder. >> i know. >> listen, this is a nonsense issue if you know that more people -- >> you think this is nonsense. >> on the substance. >> i bet you he gets the biggest cheers. you can say what we all think here, but he gets the biggest cheers when he says build the wall and lock her up. >> i'd like to talk about the substance. >> the political substance is it's popular with a narrow stratum but not going to solve the problem. those people in the -- >> how many electoral votes did this get him? >> who knows. >> enough to win. how do you talk away this thing? i'm looking at these polls. people stop giving me polls to read. polls don't count anymore. it's politically incorrect to say what they say. they don't want to tell any of us. >> he's doing this in order to give those people in the rust belt jobs. this has nothing to do with the fact -- >> we'll see. clarence, is this wall going to be -- is there going to be a wall? >> let's go back to the central theme of this election, chris.

let's take trump seriously but not literally. >> well, seriously -- i think he was serious today. >> he's been all over the map on what this wall is going to be. will it be a wall, will it be a fence, will there be -- >> kellyanne was just on, said it's the whole 2,000 mile stretch. >> she's been over the hump, too, on this. i mean, the fact is that the terrain down there is such -- especially with the rio grande river moving its channels, the border changes all the time. chris, people aren't supporting trump because he's going to build a wall. they're supporting him because he's strongly eigaint immigrati >> don't they want him to be -- >> look at what the executive order says about using available funds. what trump is probably going to do is redirect -- >> let's talk about real politics here. sanctuary cities, big liberal mayors, all progressive, 90% democrat, de blasio, kenny in philly, san francisco. these mayors take price in lode

looking out for the latino community. a lot worry about the immigration deal. who's going to win this fight? >> it's going to be a very brutal battle. i don't think he's going to like thei the optics. one thing that did not happen today is the deportation of the dreamers. >> he's not doing that. >> he's whiimping out -- >> that's a nice way to say -- >> therefore, the sanctuary -- >> he's not going to go around picking up 8-year-olds. >> the problem with sanctuary cities is there are sanctuary cities and there are snk ware cities. the city of chicago says we're prioritizing murderers and want to lock up those guys, use our jails for that, what is trump going to say -- didn't pick up an illegal alien who ran a traffic light? >> trump, himself, moving in that direction of going after criminals, not going after kids and families. >> he's adding more dreamers, by

the way, he's giving more of them -- 800 since he took office. so he's actually violating a key promise -- >> i think we're with the dreamers here. >> he said day one he would end it. >> thank you, andrew sullivan, clarence page. up next, the death of a tv legend. boy, did we love her. mary tyler moore. you're watching "hardball."

donald trump's promising to announce his nominee for the united states supreme court next week. in a tweet, trump says, "i'll be making my supreme court pick on thursday of next week.

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the lowest prices on our hotels are always at hilton.com. so pay less and get more only at hilton.com. >> oh, rob, wasn't that exciting? >> it was embarrassing. >> oh, rob, did you hear what she said about me? behind every great man -- >> is a woman with a big mouth! [ laughter ] well today we lost an american icon, i'd say, and television pioneer, the beloved mary tyler moore. best known for the unforgettable characters she played in the 1960s and '70s, she redefined the traditional role of women on television. as a feisty young wife on the dick van dyke show, moore showed millions of women in this country what a wife's place was, as an equal partner. as an unmarried young television producer on "the mary tyler moore show" she earned admission ration for toughness she showed in the workplace dominated by

men. >> you've got spunk. [ laughter ] >> well, yes. >> i hate spunk! >> mary tyler moore was 80 years old. i'm joined on the phone by the great carl reiner, a friend of mary tyler moore, he directed "the dick van dyke show" and played alan brady, the guy who was supposed to be the star of the show. he's a mark twain prize winner for humor and everything else, in my book. carl reiner. mr. reiner, sir, why did you pick mary tyler moore to be the start of "the dick van dyke show"? because i was smart like anybody else. anybody who ever had to audition anybody, there was no question about her, the first time i saw i knew she was it. i had already seen 23 people for that role and i told sheldon london, our executive producer "i don't know what i'm looking for." he says "you'll know when you see." and i saw 23 people and actually i went to danny thomas who put up the money and i said "i just

flew this girl in from new york and it's not working out." and he said "who was that girl who auditioned for me to play my daughter? she was perfect but her nose went the wrong way." >> it wasn't dramatic enough, her nose. >> anyway, so he said she was on the richard diamond show, she had -- only her legs showed, she was the secretary. i looked it up and it was mary tyler moore. she walked into my office, i saw those legs, that hair, those eyes, the smile and i knew that was it. i asked her to read something. i gave her a script, she read two lines and had a ping in her voice. i made my hand into a claw like you find in the penny arcade. i walked across the room with my claw hand overhead and she thought i was going to cuff her but instead i put it on her head and i said "come with me, young lady." i walked down the hall to sheldon leonard's office,

executive producer and i said "you were right, i found her." and i released her and there was our laura petri. >> carl reiner, stick with us. we're watching "hardball." we'll be right back. ♪ (vo) do not go gentle into that good night, old age should burn and rave at close of day; rage, rage against the dying of the light. do not go gentle into that good night.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ still trying to find how ara good site.going? they all...want...to... charge me.

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louis-dreyfus. she's the latest greatest. have women gotten to be more funny? being able to be more funny? >> well, i think women have always been funny on television but in a different way. the original one was lucy with her husband desi but that show was about man against woman and the van dyke show was the first one where it was man and woman together. man and woman against the world and mary was the perfect one for that because she had a grace about her that informed all of us that women not only can be equals but sometimes superior in their opinions and their knowledge of how marriages in the world works. >> you know, when i look at mary tyler moore, for many years i watched her on "the mary tyler moore show" after your show and it was like the delightful show of a saturday night. it kept you home. i think a lot of people stayed

home to see her, that's how good she was and she made life better. >> well, "the mary tyler moore show" was the show that i think started not only started but supported the equality for women and it informed the world that women are not only equal but in many ways superior to men and that show was a template for many other shows that could come where women not only were strong but correct. they were sometimes smarter than their husbands which in my case was absolutely true. my wife was much smarter tn me, about everything. and so based on that is why mary's character laura was who she was and mary richards, my god, took it many steps ahead and i think we have her to thank for the women's movement today. >> i love you, mr. reiner, you

are the best. you are the best. thank you so much for giving us your time tonight. carl reiner. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> the secretary of homeland security working with myself and my staff will begin immediate construction of a border wall. >> the president announces the building of his wall, threatens to take over an american city, orders a major investigation into the election he won and now wants to return to torture as american policy. >> does it work? does torture work? and the answer was yes. absolutely. >> tonight inside the actions and the outrage over america's first cable news president. plus, the mayor of new york, bill de blasio, on his plans to fight the president's executive order to end sanctuary cities. is the president already engaging in the same behavior