the nominations of education secretary betsy devos and hhs secretary tom price will be up for approval. >> that's a wrap for us on this tuesday. i'm mean-spirited and un-american. >> i notice chuck schumer yesterday with fake tears. i'm going to ask him who was his acting coach. i know him very well. i don't see him as a crier. if he is, he's a different man. there's a 5% chance it was real, but i think they were fake tears. >> all right. good morning, everybody. it's tuesday january 31st.

welcome to "morning joe." >> with us on set, good morning. how are you? >> i'm doing well, i guess. >> fake tears. msnbc contributor mike barnicle. >> mike barnicle is here, everybody. >> washington white house correspondent for "wall street journal" carol lee and law professor at george washington university jonathan turley. good to have you all on board. >> in the news this morning, there's a new top law enforcement officer running the justice department. >> last night the white house relieved acting attorney sally yates after she ordered the department's lawyers not to defend the president's travel ban executive order. yates was president obama's deputy attorney general and stayed on to bridge the gap between his administration and the confirmation of trump's attorney general. last night she issued a statement saying in part, quote, my responsibility is to ensure that the position of the department of justice is not only legally defensible but is informed by our best view of

what the law is after consideration of all of the facts. in addition, i am responsible for ensuring that the positions we take in court remain consistent with this institution's solemn obligation to always seek justice and stand for what is right. at present i'm not convinced the defense of the executive order is consistent with these responsibilities, nor am i convinced that the executive order is lawful. white house officials say the replacement, dana benta was sworn in last night at 9:00 p.m. a few minutes later the white house sent out a statement saying in part, the acting attorney general sally yates has betrayed the department of justice by refusing to enforce a legal order designed to protect the citizens of the united states. this order was approved as to form and legality by the department of justice office of legal counsel. my yates is an obama administration appointee who is

weak on borders and very weak on illegal immigration. it's time to get serious about protecting our country. calling for tougher vetting for individuals traveling from seven dangerous places is not extreme. it is reasonable and necessary to protect our country. democrats responded on the senate floor late last night. >> of course we had a monday night massacre. sally yates, a person of great integrity, who follows the law was fired by the president. she was fired because she would not enact, pursue the executive order on the grounds it was illegal. we are a nation that is a rule of law. you can't sit down, twitter something out and think, okay, let's enact it.

>> yates replacement boente has been with the justice department 30 years. resume includes famously prosecuting bob mcdonnell. senate committee expected to vote on jeff sessions as attorney general. >> let's go to you. betrayed. using the word betrayed for somebody is frightening. that's what an autocrat would use, whoever put that word in there. >> weak on borders, weak on immigration. >> there are people who can have reasonable differences who can not agree with you. most legal experts would say the president did have a right to do this but saying somebody betrayed the justice department because they don't agree with you, take that to venezuela, okay, we don't really wan to use

that sort of language here. it's time for you guys to grow up. it really is time to grow up. jonathan turley, now let's go to the larger point. did the white house, did the administration have a right to replace an acting justice department official that would not enact their order? >> they absolutely had that right. there's no question at all about that. this is a very curious move by the former acting attorney general in some respects. as you know, i think this executive order was a terrible mistake. i said that seconds after it was signed. but on the constitutional basis, the law favors trump on constitutionality. >> that's what i was going to ask you. yesterday we had this discussion and i was asleep for only half of my two constitutional law classes in law school. it does seem like this will not be overturned by courts.

there may be parts that are modified here and there but it's not going to be overturned. so the second she said she wasn't going to enforce this, this did seem, did it not, to be a political decision on her part which certainly was within her right but a curious decision for a justice department official to make. >> i thought it was very odd. i don't know what her motivations were. on the constitutional side it favors him. on the statutory side there's an argument under 1965 law but compelling arts on the other side for the president. that is not the type of circumstance where the head of the agency tells all of the lawyers in the justice department not to assist the president of the un. this the same justice department that just last year was defending president obama in arguing for unilateral authority, saying that judges should not second-guess the president on immigration. it's the same justice department thatted of didded the so-called torture program. it's very inconsistent. on top of that in her letter she

bases it in part on letters presumable trump campaign and rudy giuliani about the motivation behind this executive order. there's a long-standing policy in the justice department cases, cases i've been chief defense counsel on, where they argue that type of motivational evidence is completely immaterial. they have a long-standing position on that. what the president said on the campaign trail will not be viewed by the court, what is the legality of the order. it could have changed or the people that drafted it. the whole letter was curious. yes, he had the right to fire her. >> he certainly did. mike barnicle, we have such overreaching. the democrats calling this the saturday night massacre. this is not the saturday night massacre. this is probably constitutional order that somebody decided not to follow up. just like democrats and some people in the press were calling it a muslim ban. it's not a muslim ban, it's a travel ban.

i'm talking about how courts will see this. don't attack me, this is how federal courts will see this as a matter of law. that said, the trump administration, first of all, donald trump mocking a senator for crying? seriously? then i want us to stop -- i wan to circle this word because it's frightening. >> betrayed. betrayed the department of justice. >> to suggest someone acting as a conscientious objector to a law that has divided this country would be termed as, quote, betrayed the justice department. that is deeply, deeply offensive first of all. but secondly, it's frightening the justice department views dissent that way. >> in addition to that, the

president's statement continues the personal attack. she's weak on border, she's weak on immigration because she's a democrat because she opposed this order, which was her right to do. jonathan turley is probably correct, you're protect correct. i don't know what happens in court. last time i was in court i was plaintiff. >> you mean defendant. >> that's why i was in court. >> exactly. >> what we have here is a series of virtual stun grenades called executive orders. we're going to have another one this evening in order to distract people, the announcement of the supreme court justice. in speaking with several people in washington, many of them the same people the two of you spoke with over the weekend, several of them with expertise in fighting terror in this country, they raise the issue over and over and over again of incompetence versus ideology.

in competence drawing up executive order of immigration. they asked specifically where was pakistan in this list? where was pakistan in this list? where was kenya? belgium. >> it was not only incompetence, people say you're picking on stephen miller because stephen miller drafted it. he was the one that made the decision to keep agency heads out of it. the buck always stops with donald trump. if we're looking at the architecture of chaos. donald trump did what donald trump promised he was going to do in the campaign. stev stephen miller drafted something and didn't talk to agency heads that, mika, that caused an absolute not meltdown but war of words behind the scenes with donald trump's foreign policy team. who has been left in the dark. >> there's more reporting this morning that top lawmakers and top cabinet members were left in

the dark as travel ban, executive order was being developed, written, and rolled out. think about that. the "associated press" reports at least three top national security figures, defense secretary jim mattis, homeland security john kelly and rex tillerson said they are not aware of details of directives until around the time trump signed it. leading intelligence officials were also left largely in the dark. according to u.s. officials the report goes on. quote, mattis, who stood next to trump during friday's signing ceremony is said to be particularly incensed. mattis along with joint chief charms joseph dunford was aware of the general concept of trump's order but not detail. materials tells advisers he was baffled over not being consulted

on the contents of the order. insiders blasted communication with the hill as terrible. newt gingrich said the problem they have got, this is an off broadway performance of a show that is now the number one hit on broadway. aides confirmed to nbc news neither house chairman michael mcfaul or house chairman bob goodle goodlatte. they helped trump draft order but party leadership were not informed. >> so these people who worked for the chairman of the judiciary committee did it behind his back and did not inform him. >> these are people also who can give you context about perhaps how this rollout should roll out. maybe what should happen first. what are the different dynamics around the world that could be impacted. you actually have some thought behind some young kids draft.

>> some young kids draft which caused chaos across the globe, has implications. >> he goes on television doubling and tripling down on it. >> he's not on television, you guys should probably keep hill off television. so white house kept talking, they talked for the past couple of days about keeping this closely held because they didn't want to tip off terrorist who would then come to the country. i'm just wondering what exactly is in general james mattis's background that concerned stephen miller so much that he felt the need to keep our secretary of defense in the dark to the details. i'm wondering what exactly is in general john kelly's background and service to this country in war and in peace that made

stephen miller that that general who that given his all, given his son for this country, should be left in the dark about an executive order that actually impacts homeland security, impacts our fight against terror. what exactly in mike pompeo's background, rex tillerson that made steven miller think he could not trust these men to give them the information they needed to implement this in a way that didn't embarrass united states and administration in the eyes of the world. what was it, willie? i'm going to say this, every

time stephen miller, sean spicer, steve manon, anybody in the add manage said we had to keep this closely held because if we didn't, then terrorists would get the word this would happen. what they are saying is we don't trust -- stephen miller and steve bannon saying we don't trust general mattis, kelly -- of course they know better, this is worse. they are saying general mattis, general kelly, director pompeo and secretary of state designee rex tillerson. >> general dunford. >> general dunford. they are saying they could not be trusted. they could not be trusted. stephen miller said they could not be trusted with this information, our terrorists might find out. think about that for a second and ask your self if you're one of these american heroes why you

would stick around and work for a -- the first word i can't say but the second word is show. for this crap show. why would you work at this place if this ever happened again. >> you have to wonder right now what the conversations are like between general mattis and donald trump, between john kelly and donald trump. if this is your first interaction in office as the head of these departments, your first interaction with the trump administration, you have to wonder what the hell does the future look like. it's not just these guys but head of foreign relations committee, bob corker. >> bob corker. >> paul ryan. bob corker told "washington post" he found out through the media. he said i talked to some staffers on the hill but not in our office. marco rubio said my staff told state department as of today was ordered not to talk to congress about the issue. >> by the way, just so the 30

somethings in the trump administration, in case they don't understand this, the hill, they fund the state department. they fund the white house. they need to call them up to the hill tomorrow and get answers. >> the other side of the case, all the staffers who according to "politico" worked secretary secretly with the white house without taking it to their boss, where do they fit in and where are they this morning? >> i think that's a piece of this chaos that actually could last for quite sometime. frankly, donald trump was having a grace period with capitol hill. there were a lot of republicans trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. they still don't understand why he won necessarily, they are a little scared of that and they are trying to stay away from it. you saw in the statement paul ryan put out on friday. he said, okay, we need to make the nation safer but it was clearly before even he had a chance to digest any of this. the idea they are going to go

around committee chairman to their staff and not inform the person at the head of the committee, they are playing with fire. >> if we want to talk about betrayed, let's talk about betrayed. i've got a great list of people who were betrayed. american hero general james mattis was betrayed by the trump administration. director of the cia mike pompeo betrayed by trump administration. american hero general john kelly betrayed by the trump administration. chairman bob goodlatte betrayed by the trump administration. behind his back with his own staffers. if somebody on my staff in congress did that to me, again, i want to say a word i can't say. their crap would be out in the hall that morning. if they tried to get in the office, i would have capitol police and have them handcuffed and taken off premises. it's unbelievable. let's see, who else was

betrayed? oh, chairman bob corker, betrayed. all of them betrayed by stephen miller, steve bannon, and, yes, the buck stops with donald trump. all of them betrayed. you want to talk about betrayal, that was betrayal of men who have fought and given everything to their country. >> let's go to the top three. in the united states you have three war fighters, general dunford chairman chiefs of staff. his term was up. >> i didn't talk about general dunford, betrayed. >> general john kelly from brighton, massachusetts and general mattis, united states marine corps, all three united states marine corps. they have been at this task of keeping america safe, as the president keeps alluding to, in a hot war for 15 years. >> what have they lost? >> general kelly lost the ultimate. he lost his oldest son.

but all three have been on the front lines of this war for the last 15 years. all three dedicated their entire lives and careers to the service of the united states. now they are taking a back seat to people like formal naval officer steve bannon and young stephen miller. i don't know him at all. the level of sadness that initially washes over you when you think of this is just enormous because of what it means, perhaps, to the future. >> let's go to carol lee's reporting of this. >> it's up to those people and say never again. if you are going to implement an executive order that has any impact on our fight across the globe, is going to make general mattis's job easier or more difficult, rex tillerson, easier

or more difficult. in general mattis' case, actually barring iraquis who risked their lives in the defense of his marines, his soldiers, they have to be brought into this. >> the iraqi army is today trying to retake mosul and they are losing enormous numbers of iraqi soldiers in this attempt. they are being guided by assistance and counsel by american forces, largely american marines and special ops. so what do you tell them, after they suffer horrendous losses trying to retake mosul about the country they think supports them, the united states. we've just told them, you know, go get killed, but you're going to stay there. you're never coming back here. >> carol lee. >> i think listening to all of this, this is a white house that is still operating as if it's in a campaign. the problem with that is that there are real life

consequences. they are actually putting out policies and they are not handling it in a way that is giving anybody confidence in this administration. to go back to yesterday, even before the attorney general firing you had the press secretary saying to an administration where there's widespread anxiety with people who worked in the government for a long period of time, what's going to happen to their jobs, the heads running their agencies are going to be empowered. you have a press secretary saying if people don't want to get with the program, then they can go. so you have really a lack of confidence on capitol hill with the president who is going to need to have allies on capitol hill, and you have even within the administration just widespread anxiety and concerns about what the policies are, who is in charge, what their jobs are going to be. we're 11 days in. that's a really unsettling way to start out a presidency. >> yeah. no doubt about it. jonathan turrell y, tonight a

supreme court pick is going to be made. what can you tell us about any of the candidates? >> well, the leading candidates all fit the bill in terms of what donald trump said on the campaign trail. many of these people really serve the function of being vaccinated against the sueder virus. these are people virtually guaranteed not to go from the right to the left on the court. they have long histories of voting one way. i clerked with one of them. i clerked on the fifth circuit. he hasn't changed at all since i clerked. he's rock solid in terms of his views. gorsuch is viewed as a little less certain on some issues. he's a profound writer. he's very, very intelligent. he has a lot of supporters on the court of appeals.

but it's hardiman from the third circuit that has a curious advantage, that is support of donald trump's sister. she can give a personal account and reportedly favors him a great deal. we do know president trump relies on close advisers for these types of decisions. what's important is that all three of these justices would give trump another promise that he could fulfill. this would not move the needle much on the court in terms of the center of gravity. they will be swapping out a conservative for a conservative. but they are also replacing a conservative icon. scalia was not just a conservative vote, he was the intellectual lightning rod on the court. but they will certainly be able to replace him in terms of a conservative vote on these issues. then the question will become, those three justices who will be in their 80s during donald trump's first term. those justices, if they were

replaced by donald trump could have a transformative effect on the court. >> thank you very much for being on the show this morning. still ahead senator tim kaine will be our guest. it's his first time back on the show since the election. we'll be back in just a moment. >> any government official, anyone who doesn't understand the president's goal in this and what this actually was, again, i think this has been blown way out of proportion and exaggerated. again, you talk about in a 24-hour period, 320,000 people from other countries flew in from our airports and we're talking 109 people. from seven countries the obama administration identified. these career bureaucrats have a problem with it? i think they should either get with the program or they can go. . that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business...

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joining us from washington senior writer at "politico" and co-"the playbook" jake sherman. we had a lot going on.

you saw at the top of the show chuck schumer pretty much in tears about everything on the steps of the supreme court. democratic lawmakers rallied alongside hundreds of demonstrators in response to the president's travel ban. the rally was backed by top officials senator chuck schumer and congresswoman nancy pelosi. senator blumenthal was there, elizabeth warren was there, cory booker was there. it came shortly after house leadership blocked democratic legislation to reverse the president's executive order. there was a lot of emotion. >> we had a tweet this morning. >> trump has tweeted about this. >> nancy pelosi. >> he has a new nickname, fake tears chuck schumer. >> doesn't roll off the tongue. >> not like head clown. a mess, just like the democratic party. >> so we've been very critical, i've bp very critical in the first 30 minutes here. we've seen what's been going on.

i thought yesterday afternoon it would be interesting to reach out to all of my friends and relatives in florida and across the country that voted for donald trump, because we certainly know what we all think about this, just to see what they were thinking. i talked to eight people in the afternoon. the results might surprise you. and by the way, you can try this at home, too. just call your relatives outside of manhattan and georgetown and you may be surprised, too. i talked to eight people, all professionals, all between 35 and 60. i'm just going to quote it. here are the verbatims. i don't know why people are protesting and so angry with trump. immigrants came to assimilate in the country before, not to blow us up. all the president is trying to

do is keep us safe. i'm pleased that trump is doing what he said he would do, which is a first for an elected official. i'm quoting these. these are verbates. i'm pleased that trump is putting into action what he said he would do. he is executing well. the president is spot on. in washington he is doing what they sent him to do. here is another. i'm pleased that the shake-up that is being caused by the trump add manage is loud, because it sends a message that action is happening, process is happening. i'm going to continue this. by the way, all these people watch the show and know how disappointed i've been in the first week. so it's not like they are trying to make me feel better. the protests are just a ploy by dnc -- this was a running thing. protests a ploy by dnc and media who are all about dividing and disrupting the movement for

change. change is what the voters want. regarding the media, the media is an ample of the dnc, they can't understand what trump is doing because they are a left wing organization. here is another. the media is scared of trump's tweets because he can speak directly to the people and get his message out without having to be filtered or processed through the media. trump, press on. don't take your foot off the gas. love the shake-up and want you to keep at it. i've got like 15 more. and by the way, i asked my brother, who is a huge trump fan. george, we go back and forth with tweets. usually it ends up with let's just talk about football. george, ask your friends, what are they saying. he texted me back and said, they are not happy with him, they are deliriously happy with him.

so i put down my phone, and i said -- i said, you know what -- because i've done this for a long time. if i talk to 15 people, professionals, different ages, different states, different whatever, and they are all coming back saying the same thing, he's got -- he's got his base. >> there's no doubt about that. >> what's more interesting, mike, is the way -- they know this. every time we attack him, the press, and every time marchers go into the streets, they only strengthen his standing with the base. >> it's not like we're going to be silent but it's remarkable. >> no doubt about all of that. is there any way you can pose the following question to those people -- >> you know what we're going to do after this, we're going to get a focus group. we're going to start doing focus groups on this show with trump voters but go ahead. >> here is a question to pose to your friends and associates, all

of them you reported verbatim and it is this. since september 11th, all of the domestic incidents of terror that have occurred in the united states, how many of the perpetrators caught, convicted or killed during the course of those acts came from the countries on the list the executive order has? the answer is zero. here is another quote for you, and this comes from a high-ranking intelligence officials. >> in the words of elton john, don't shoot me, i'm only the piano player. >> high-ranking intelligence officials in the united states of america. >> mike, they are not listening to you. >> here is the quote. >> they are not listening to you. we understand. they are not listening to us. they are not listening to anybody but trump. they are not reading anything but trump's tweets. >> here is the problem with everything you read. there is an expectation in that reaction, which i'm not surprised by at all. i thought it in realtime when i read the executive order.

it was like, of course a lot of trump supporters will really like this. they will feel he's following through. and i don't consider those people to be extreme in any way. but there is an expectation that there was study that this actually makes us safe. there was an expectation this was conferred to with the top military leaders and the people who were in the cabinet that it actually has context on the international stage. and there is an expectation this is done in the proper order of events so that it is effective and none of that has happened. no, we're finding out very, very suddenly that none of that has happened. >> i'm saying i don't think these people i'm talking to -- >> what about the news i just read this morning? >> they don't care. >> they don't care mattis was not -- >> they don't care. >> they are going to end up caring when everything melts down. >> again, i say to my friends in the media, if you don't believe me, call middle america, call

your relatives. >> joe, that's political. that's great there are people who support trump, i'm sure he's happy. >> mika. >> i'm not mad at you. >> i spent the first 30 minutes saying what's going on in the white house is acceptable. i'm actually doing something we don't do enough of, and that is a reality check. instead of just talking to ourselves, what are people saying, which, willie, gets to the important point. you have democrats screaming into bull horns and everything else. i had breakfast on sunday morning with a progressive democratic senator. we had dinner sunday night with another democratic senator. they said, both of them said, one of the most telling things was the democratic retreat where joe manchin brought in trump supporters, and they had a trump supporter focus group. and it was jarring to the democratic party. the democratic party, the

opposition is going to have to figure out another way to get at middle america, because they don't know how to do it right now, nor does the press. >> they have driven even further in their own direction left. >> the rally is hard to watch. >> joe manchin has left donald trump on this. he released a statement saying he can't abide this immigration order, travel ban. i'm not surprised by the reactions you got. i talked to similar people, friends i have across the country. but that, again, is his base. those are people he's talking to in his inaugural address. those are the people he's been talking to with all these executive orders. he believes he's delivering on campaign promises and they see it that way. again, that's his approval rating. >> approval rating at 40%. >> that's the core. i think what we expect to be getting with inaugural, he tried to pull out more. not just democrats, by the way,

but you might want to tell bob corker and paul ryan when you issue something that has this much impact. >> the problem is, they get caught in this positive feedback mode where they have all their supporters telling them they are the greatest thing in the world and it's self-fulfilling. you go out and pretty soon you're telling somebody they betrayed the state department if they commit an act of conscience. >> the problem you can see developing between capitol hill and the white house. i was up on the hill last night. angry is an understatement about the story i reported last night about trump back channeling with committee staffers. >> are these republicans who are angry? >> yes. yes. republicans -- you hear this on the hill all the time. lawmakers were there before trump and they will be there after trump.

they like to be kept in the loop. if trump keeps doing these executive orders and not fill people in, the hill is going to dismiss him and it's going to quickly turn into the obama presidency where the president of the united states has absolutely no relationship with anybody on capitol hill. and that's what people are afraid of. it's unconscionable that the speaker of the house had no idea about a major change in immigration policy let alone the fact, another thing we reported in that story last night, that middle level and high level staffers were forced to sign nondisclosure agreements so they couldn't tell leadership and their committee chair. this is not the way -- >> chairman goodlatte, call your office and fire them all -- fire them all this morning. >> casey, a strange way of doing business on the hill. >> very much. yes. again, first of all, don't forget all of these members, they are facing re-election in two years. they to a certain extent are

nervous about this middle america we were talking about. trump has this base. they are partially afraid to go up against him. so that gives trump some power on the hill. but if he keeps operating this way, keeps dugt them out of the loop, eventually he's going to push them so far he's going to say we have no choice, we're going to deal with consequences. >> let's talk about the magic number. republicans have 52 senators. the magic number is three. ben sasse, john mccain, lindsey graham. >> a couple more. >> and you got a couple more you can start adding on. joe manchin was going to be the democrat -- >> jeff flake. jeff flake is not going to put up with this. >> marco rubio. >> marco rubio. little marco grows a little bit every day, his power in washington, d.c..

>> little miller now. >> you can start calling him little miller. it's not little marco anymore, it's little miller running around -- actually he's a little napoleon. he's thinking he can cut out generals. that's him. he thinks he can't trust general mattis. this guy you see on your screen thinks general mattis cannot be trusted. this guy you see on your screen thinks general kelly cannot be trusted. this guy you see on your screen thinks the director of the cia cannot be trusted. this guy you see on your screen thinks that bob corker cannot be trusted. the guy you see on the screen thinks paul ryan cannot be trusted. mitch mcconnell cannot be trusted. the chairman of the judiciary committee cannot be trusted. >> he thinks he knows better. >> little miller, you don't. you just don't. and you have created a storm that is going to have an impact. >> what kind of storm.

>> i'd love to be able to say. >> do you think the seven second delay would work. >> want to try it. let's try it. >> last time we tried it, what happened? >> alex was a little short -- >> alex hit chopper 4. we got the word but weather over the area. >> it was a nice day. >> we have much more to talk about including whether little miller is his best. how about napoleon. >> america can't turn its back on refugees. he wants to see the senator do something about it. we'll ask both of them what that exchange says about the democrats' game plan in the era of trump. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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the midst of all this. last night's boston celtics game-set up home coming for sergeant who served in iraq among many other places. his entire family waiting for him. first half of the game, the sergeant's mother overcome with emotion as she sees her son walk

into the arena. she had no idea he was going to be here or even he was home. hot spot seen him in a long time. nice moment there. >> that's great. >> back with pentagon correspondent. >> come up with a fitting name. >> we'll have that. hans will join us. he'll have some -- >> he'll add color. >> add some texture for us.

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52 past the hour. joining us now -- >> i'm excited. >> new name. >> we're going to wait until the top of the hour. >> forget little. it's used. >> it's used. >> we have our own. you've got to have creativity with these things. speaking of -- >> let's bring in pentagon correspondent hans nichol. >> talk about texture and color. >> too much. >> sometimes there's too much and you have to know the line. you'll get there.

>> sand it down a little bit. >> willie will tell you this after we go to the orphanage after the work, we have a little shop on madison and 64th. it's really expensive but it's worth it. it's how we get away. where does james mattis go when he works for an administration where a 30 something staffer rolls him. >> he can go in the tank and have a conversation with joint chief and give advice. when you're trying to sort this out at the pentagon, it's very interesting. you keep asking did mattis know? how did he protest? i'm talking about the immigration order. here is what they will tell you. they will walk you up to it and say the president came to the pentagon and announced

readiness, accelerated fight and immigration. what did mattis do sends out an appreciation and says thank you for two of those three. what does he do the day after. he says we're reviewing the order. >> as if they haven't had a chance to review the order. >> you won't get anyone inside the pentagon or saying defense officials mattis was blind-sided. think of the pentagon and white house as sort of being on an awkward first date. they want to like each other, want things to go well but sensitive to blubders. out of the galt they have problems. when things get really serious what sort of action we should have where. >> iran fires a ballistic missile. >> which they tested one, right, just a couple days ago. where were they pointing it? pointing the ocean or unsuccessful test? they weren't overly fussed about that. i think pentagon holding fire,

wood, we get basketball in there and it will ab trifecta. that's the sense they don't want to overstep their bound because they are bracing for a bigger fight down the line. >> mika? >> carol lee, your thoughts on this? it does appear this came out of the white house first and it doesn't appear there was even time for anyone to really think it out. >> yeah, that's right. if you talk to people in the white house, there are those who like this strategy, who want it this way, this shock and awe beginning this presidency. the question going forward that while the president supporters really like that and they see him being very active and following through on all of his promises, what happens a month from now or a couple months from now when he's going to need to work with congress. if you've alienated republicans in congress, that's a problem. more important, if you've alienated your own cabinet it makes it really hard to govern and follow through on your promises. all of this has happened and we

haven't seen a world crisis yet. this is all manufactured from within. that will be another really big test going forward. >> hans, what's your sense of general mattis's tolerance of this? we were just discussing this. first time, okay, i understand you have no idea what you're doing. we're going to give you a pass on this one. how long does he hang in? as carol said, some people in the white house like the way this is going. >> my guess he had a limit, one pass, two pass, three passes, he'll never publicly articulate that. kind of a doomsday device, it only works under certain circumstances. he wants to have a very good relationship with the president and the top peel around him. so right now they are sort of holding their fire. look publicly what he's signaling, all his conversations with defense ministers, germany, italy, france, always talking about the importance of aleanses. where is he heading wednesday? south korea, japan. later in the month he'll meet

with nato officials in brussels. >> wow. >> can we do one little bit of color, because i know joe likes it. >> as long as it doesn't involve urine. >> your last bit was too colorful for us. >> it could. picks up his own dry cleaning at the pentagon. i've got two sources on that. i've got one source saying he picks up his own subway sandwich. one source we can't definitively say secretary mattis goes to subway. i asked, does he get the skinny or not. i need better sources. >> get back to work. work on that. >> hans nichols, thank you very much. carol lee, thank you as well. coming up, ari fleischer has answered for a president in the past. so where does he stand on the current commander in chief? he joins the table along with former governor and dnc chair howard dean. get along, guys. "morning joe" is back in a moment. what powers the digital world. communication.

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fiber-enabled broadband to more than 65,000 fans. and why a leading car brand counts on us to keep their dealer network streamlined and nimble. businesses count on communication, and communication counts on centurylink. ♪ ♪ back to "morning joe," it's tuesday. >> we got a name. alex, what do you mean you're still working on it? i think i'm being kept in the dark by my executive producer. >> that's exactly what's happening. >> kept in the dark. i don't know if other people are cool with being left in the dark. >> former white house press secretary for george w. bush ari

fleischer. do you like being kept in the dark, ari? >> are the lights going on. >> from your subordinates. >> former governor of vermont, former chairman of the democratic national committee. howard. >> yes. >> do you like being kept in the dark. >> i do not. >> senior writer "politico" jake sherman keeping us in the dark this morning. no, he's going to be contributing. has he it. >> so. >> we decided we don't want to be sort of uncreative. >> it's not little miller. >> that's little marco. >> little marco is getting bigger by the day because the power three or four republican senators to stop everything dead in its track. >> big. >> that's power. it's big marco now. for miller we could call him

little mirls because it's big marco. joe came up -- good job. >> this is basically who got in general mattis's way. not austin powers. there you go. >> that little guy. >> mini me. >> mini miller. >> it's mini miller. exactly. >> mini miller packs a punch. >> he does. >> slightly more serious question about miller. we mentioned people left in the dark, mattis, dunford, tillerson -- >> you just went from austin powers. >> there's a tie in. senator miller worked for jeff sessions. he was a sessions staffer. did jeff sessions -- this is all immigration ban talk. did he know anything about it? was he briefed on it? >> come on. >> i've got to believe he did. i've got to believe he did. but the man you're looking at right now, not me, but the guy

we're showing did not trust general mattis to give him information about the details, nor did he trust general john kelly, who actually is the head of the department of homeland security. nor did he trust the director of the cia to keep him in the loop. nor did he trust rex tillerson. all these people donald trump said were superstars. >> corker. >> 30 something, john kelly, rex tillerson, director of cia all left out in the cold. ari, i can't even begin to ask the question would george w. bush ever allow this to happen because the question is laughable in and of itself. >> let me introduce you to the four most boring words in the government, intergovernment review process. every bureaucrat knows it. every bureaucrat dreads it but it's what makes the government function correctly. it's the act of coordinating. you bring in secretary, deputy

secretaries, lawyers, you consult with the refugee community in the united states, the people in charge of settling refugees. this does not need to be a state secret. that would have led to a better rollout, more protection of americans. i dream of the day when an iraqi translator who lives in this country can say to donald trump, thank you for keeping me safe, because i don't want the people i fled from in isis and iraq to come to america. what you've done with these new rules will keep me safe. that should have been the announcement and the rollout. it could have been. but it was done -- >> so intergovernmental process. >> intergovernmental review. >> that is, joe, you read from the scan of trump supporters you did yesterday, spent the entire afternoon on the phone really getting a sense of how people feel about this, that's the expectation there is that. >> how 40% -- maybe it's 38%, maybe 40% base. we don't know exactly. most of the polls show he's somewhere between 36 and 40, 41, 42%.

but howard, it's already said, that's the real problem here is how it was rolled out. you had this 30 something kid decide he was going to keep all the lawyers in the dark. he was going to keep all the agencies in the dark. instead of bringing them all in and making sure they implemented this in a way that debate leave 5 years old separated from their mothers in airports. >> the problem is that these -- the two guys that are doing this bannon and miller are basically idealogues. they don't care about the processes. the people supporting trump, 40% or whatever, they don't care either. but if you get into the government you have to use this process or it blows up. here is the danger trump has. he still has public support for this. the danger is in the longer run

that general mattis quits, that john kelly, who -- general kelly, who unbelievably has to be embarrassed about this. that is more outrageous than not talking to isn't of defense, that he quits and resigns. when honorable people, which is going to happen, start to resign because you're incompetent, that's when your base starts to get concerned about it. >> mika, any question -- the white house is just lying when they say everybody was advised. they are just lying when they said general kelly because advised because the dhs lawyers said that it applied to green card holders. miller and bannon reversed that position overnight. and then you had general kelly the next day coming back saying, yes, it does apply to green card holders. there are also reports that people with green cards had them seized at dulles airport after a federal judge had put in an

order that should have prevented that, which is a much bigger question. >> so we have all this with the background of democrats holding a rally, which we need to get to, because the story speaks for itself, and it will. stephen miller is also at the heart of reports inside the administration. "washington post" reports inside the west wing tensions flared as differences in management style emerged between two factions, one led by chief strategist stephen k. bannon and senior policy adviser stephen miller who wrote the immigration order. and the other composed of reince priebus and deputies who are accustomed to operating with a more traditional chain of command. the piece goes on. a washington official with anonymity to speak candidly, underconfidence and insecurity can breed paranoia and backstabbing. the source said of priebus, we

have to get him to relax because he's seeing shadows where there are no shadows. there are shadows. reince knows what he sees. reince knows exactly what he sees and it's shadows. >> this is awfully early in the administration for this to be happening, isn't it? >> i think in the trump world, this is traditional. donald trump has pitted camps and that's how he operates. let me say something about the greater picture. there is a balance sheet here. i don't like the way it's executed, i uphold the -- you have to understand donald trump is ceo authoritative leader to get things done. he's going to run into a lot of sand traps. we have to watch, does he modify. i like the energy, the action. in this case, he was wrong. head of homeland security, secretary of defense. the day is coming they will walk into reince office and say you took your mulligan. this can never happen again.

that's healthy. these things get corrected. administrations fix things as they go along. i hope he will. >> the point, joe, you say he's going to run into sand trips. that's okay on some levels in terms of policy promises. you look at the foreign policy he put together? you know what i see he's not going to run into sand traps with safety he's got guys that can give context, texture and help him lay out a version of his policies that stay within geo strategy and our safety global. >> listen, this happened the first week. that's the mulligan. i would guess for most of these leaders. but if this happens three weeks from now, four weeks from now, they are going to walk. they will walk. >> today, as we are sitting here right now, the russians have now launched a major offensive in eastern ukraine. it's not being covered because of this hoopla firing state attorney general and all this kind of stuff, this is a major offense. this is not just a few things

taking territory, moving into places they haven't moved before. what the hell are we going to do about that? >> iranians are firing missiles. >> troops on the ground advancing in ukraine. the game is changing. putin taking advantage. who is going to do what about that. who knows what the hell they are doing. >> there's also a story the chinese are celebrating. what they are seeing is chaos. the chinese are laughing, they are saying trump's slogan should be make china great again. >> that's true. >> they are saying that. why this chaos going on, everything across the globe, i had a white house staffer tell me very early on, we can't keep us with this pace. we are exhausted. what happens when a real crisis comes that stephen miller didn't cause. >> they are going to have to learn there are people that know better than them. that inner circle in the white

house have to know general mattis, general kelly, rex tillerson would have had valuable things to add to this in the white house self-interest. homeland security, green cards, we have to let them back in the country. that was a poison pill for a lot of people. are you kidding me? people with green cards, permanent legal residents can't come back in. if they consulted those people in the way that's traditional and done the review, it would have helped their cause just for their own self-interest. if they want support for this, they need to consult other people. they don't always know best. >> general mattis would say what he's saying now. make an exception for iraqi interpreters and others who risked their life and family's life defending the united states. >> before i get burned at the stake, jake sherman, i would like to remind everyone there were things i said about the clinton campaign that did bore out to be true. it pertained to democratic party as a whole. jake sherman, try to explain to me why i watched the rally

yesterday. while i'm totally with them, and i understand what they are upset about, and i feel the way they do, i didn't feel like this was where we needed to be. is there anything that you can glean from what i'm saying? if not, i'll go to howard dean. >> that's a tough choice. he ran for president and ran the party so he probably knows a little bit better. that being said, i don't think democrats have come to grips with the fact that they are in the extremely deep minority in the house, the minority in the senate. they are operating by an old playbook, which is kind of, at this appoint, becoming frayed and tattered. i think we saw that last night. donald trump pointed out on twitter this morning that the microphone debate work at the rally, which is true. >> i noticed that. >> momentarily. it was quite embarrassing but that's okay. this party has not really moved on from 2006. i can't tell you how many democrats that i talk to on capitol hill want change and

want it now in the leadership on capitol hill. but i would defer to the former dnc chairman to render judgments on his party. >> so mika, you look at that, look at the protest, look at everything that's going on right now, again, the question that has to be asked is like, for instance, west haven, connecticut, went for barack obama by 20 points. i had a representative there tell me it went for trump by 20 points. there is a county, tom perez when he was here said there's a county in the middle of iowa that was plus 21 for obama. this year it was plus 21 for trump. it reminds me of howard dean's 50-state strategy. they have to figure out how to get out of the old mode and start speaking to some of these communities. >> also, howard, i'm trying to get my arms around why i watched that, i just feel they are overreaching. i think it's because there are some basic things here that are

bearing out where you've just got to let the opposing side actually trip, which they are doing beautifully. >> what are you saying? i'm confused. >> first of all, there are muslim countries not included in this ban. there are clearly some growing pains that are going to bear out in the coming week, that are going to show the trump administration to be extremely inexperienced at best in this travel ban. and yet they are out there acting as if people are being killed and it's a slaughter. i know this is going to be criticized what i'm saying but i have an instinctive feeling about it. >> so there are two things going on here. one is something that always happens, politicians watching are always behind where their base is. these folks, i would be a little harsh to say they haven't learned anything since 2006 but they are not where the base is. one of the extraordinary things

about this election has not been discussed, which is for the first time the young people in this country are really mobilized to consider institutional -- joining an institution. they all voted for obama because he was like them, multi-cultural and so forth but they are not democrats. today they are now working for the democrats. there's a website they put up and they got 250,000 people to agree to swing left and 1,000 people to agree to run for office. this is unorganized and disorganized but it's young people for the first time understanding that institutions matter. >> right. >> what trump's election is is a negation of what every single person under 35 has, they value inclusion, pragmatic discussion. they can't stand the dialogue going on in washington because it's always taking blowtorches to each other. that's not where the politicians are yet but they are going to have to learn to get there

because that's where the base is. >> you actually talked, i think it was in 2004, is that when you started talking about the a state strategy, 50 state strategy when republican party at its zenith, democrats on the run. i remember there were senators and congressmen that said, no, we're not going to a 50-state strategy because we don't care what they think about us basically in kansas and you adopted that. well, democrats have to do that. >> yes, they do. >> let's look at the big things that have happened. we've seen protests at airports. we've seen other protests over the last week and a half. yes, that will energize progressives. >> wonderful. >> how does it speak to that county in iowa. >> how do we win? >> that was plus 21 obama and this year went plus 21 trump. >> i'm not blaming obama for this, because every president does this. when you have an elected

president, the party becomes the re-elect and everything else withers. you can't do that we need to be in iowa. if you let rush limbaugh give democratic address in iowa, guess who wins iowa. that's what we did. you have to invest in counties with state legislatures. the biggest damages is not house and senate but legislatures. >> future leaders of the democratic party on that stage last night? >> yeah, i think there probably were. i think there's a lot of younger -- the other problem is we need a whole new generation to come up. there's lots of good candidates out there. >> ari, president trump appears unfazed by this, at least publicly. he said that was a good day, the day of the executive order on the travel ban. sean spicer said get on board or can you go. what should he learn from the first two weeks in office. >> needs to learn to balance speed, dispatch with deliberation, how to slow it

down to get proper counsel and get things vetted through the agencies. one of these seven nations, one of the years he picked them is because they are lawless. it is virtually impossible for government authorities -- i oppose it, but my old government hat, it is virtually impossible for government authorities in war ravaged places where there's no central government -- >> i get it. >> so ari. >> this is my name, my town. no one can validate their information. >> so put these up. keep them up. can i make a point to you and then go off on the point i'm going to make to you. here are the seven countries that are up. you were all about communication in the bush white house. how could it be that they didn't brief the press before hand and say, you know, the seven countries -- we didn't select seven countries it was bipartisan vote in congress and barack obama who picked the first four in 2013 and added

three more. this isn't our list. this is barack obama and congress's list. why didn't anybody brief the press first and then brief everybody else, then nobody would have called it a muslim ban. >> there's tension always at the white house between what you define as secrecy for the country and rollout, dispatch, proper communications, there's tension. i think in this case they made the wrong call on tension. they should have properly briefed this, slowed it down, set it up. they did say these are the obama seven countries but that doesn't explain why. the reason, and i think the public will understand this, if you can't validate somebody is that person and that's the town they are from, you can't have a process of asking them questions if there is an original lie about who they are so they can infiltrate. there's no databases to check or compare. >> right. that's where -- >> there could be merit from their point of view. i don't like it but they didn't explain it. >> what about all the stuff in

tech industry and physicians and stuff like that that certainly aren't terrorists. that's insane. >> you can find people to vouch for them but you can't do it totally. some merit to do this. rather than first ban and then figure out to tighten, tighten, let the rules stand for who gets tightened, then implement it. >> horrible rollout, possible horrible policy on every level given the way it was done and order in which it was done. but for the democrats on that stage yesterday was anybody from ohio there? was anybody from the rust belt there? i saw nancy pelosi, fantastic, incredible. i saw elizabeth warren, amazing. i saw dick blumenthal, connecticut. i saw cory booker, new jersey. i saw everybody who is not necessarily in the areas of the country where we need to get exposure again, where we need to feel represented again. i could be wrong, maybe they and before or after at the end but where are the leaders of the

democratic party that connect with the people we lost. >> they are not there. the leaders of the democratic party -- >> turn my phone upside down. >> ari -- >> not the leaders of the democratic supporter. >> i'm not a trump supporter, i'm a democrat, and i don't know where you guys are. i really don't. >> that's the process we're going through right now is that change. we've got a guy 35 years old running for chair of the dnc right now. he's got a decent shot at winning. >> by the way, ari, saying the same thing back in 2008 when we didn't have a single person -- single republican representative in new england. i said it's time that we stop being the party of newt gingrich and tom delay and george w., and you name everybody in the deep south. we've got to get people leading in wisconsin, pennsylvania, ohio, and those swing states. the republican party did break out of the deep south. >> especially at the gubernatorial level. >> and at the senate level, too.

all right. ari, thank you. >> ari, howard dean, jake sherman, thank you as well. >> thank you, jake. still ahead on "morning joe," senators tim kaine and rand paul join the conversation. up next executive orders come and go but a supreme court pick is for a lifetime. we'll take a look at trump's big decision which will be revealed tonight at 8:00 p.m. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. urchases she makes from that airline. what'd you earn double miles on, please? ugh. that's unfortunate. there's a better option. the capital one venture card. with venture, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, everywhere, every day. not just airline purchases. seems like a no-brainer. what's in your wallet?

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the white house says president trump the leave intact an executive order issued by the obama administration that created workplace protections for gay lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. a statement was released last night amid reports the president was going to reverse the order. the white house says president trump is proud to embrace gay rights. let's go to the white house now and nbc news national correspondent peter alexander. peter, former president obama

responding to president trump's immigration order. what is he saying about that? >> mika, on january 18th, less than two weeks ago, president obama said he would only speak out when he thought america's core values were at stake. that lasted just about ten days. the president through a spokesman, he's on vacation now, put out a statement rejecting president trump's claim decisions made on executive order were based on decisions made by his administration. here is part of that statement. he says, citizens exercising their constitutional rights to assemble, organize and have their voices heard by elected officials is exactly what we expect to see when american values are at stake. the president fundamentally disagrees with the notion of discriminating against individuals because of their faith or religion. the bottom line is he said that he is heartened by the level of engagement he has seen from americans, the same kind of language he used before he left, encouraging those americans, as he left the presidency, to speak

out when they felt it was necessary for their voices to be heard. what's notable about this is how unique this post presidency may be for president obama. in the days before he left, there were a lot of questions about who would be that leading democrat, who would fill that void. a lot of people speculating it might be joe biden but president obama making it clear, unlike president george w. bush who has spent a lot of his post presidency painting at home, president obama is going to be speaking out from a distance trying to show dissent as it was described by douglas brinkley, the presidential historian, in a calm way. back to you. >> nbc's peter alexander, thank you very much. wow, obama speaking out, it appears -- feels early but perhaps necessary, kaci. >> we're not seeing president obama step in front of a camera, which would be another step

forward, but this is exactly what he laid out in the days before he left office, this issue very specifically. >> i've got to say, though, i mean, barack obama actually had a defacto ban against syrian refugees from 2011 to 2015. let's put the seven countries back up again. >> start where the syrian refugee crisis ban. >> by the way, the syrian refugee crisis began because of barack obama's inaction. i think everybody will say and history will say the red line moment. these seven countries that were selected were selected by barack obama. these weren't selected by stephen miller. i can pound stephen miller into submission rhetorically for the stupidity he showed and the arrogance he showed in implementing this, drafting -- it was drafted like a seventh-grader drafted it. but the serve countries were

picked by barack obama himself. again, barack obama is a president who actually drew up kill lists and bragged about it to the "new york times," leaked it to the "new york times." i am sorry, but barack obama can't have it both ways. he can't sit back and have a defacto ban against syrian refugees three, four are five years, accept 3,000 in why other countries accepting 30,000 and germany accepting 100,000 and then act shocked and stunned that the next administration is basically following in his footsteps in a lot of directions. by the way, he banned people coming from iraq for how long? how long was that ban? six months. this is a three-month ban. we've all got problems with it. i understand. barack obama is not really the person to be talking about this. >> first of all, what former president obama said in a

statement to kasie's point was kind of a mild rebuke. >> maybe in light of what joe just said. >> well, watch are tv on sunday, because from coast-to-coast, airports from coast-to-coast, people outraged -- they had 20,000 people sunday afternoon in boston, massachusetts. >> so i guess the question is when barack obama first of all was causing this refugee crisis in part by not creating safe zones or drawing a red line and then backing off of it and then banning syrians from coming into this country and banning iraquis from coming into this country, where was the press then in where were the protests then? they are legitimate questions and i haven't brought them up at this point because we haven't talked about barack obama up to this point. you want to missouri why the people hate the media? because the media gave barack obama a free pass when he shut the door to syrian refugees for

yea years. then he decides to up it before he leaves the who white house. everyone says trump cut it to 50. i'm not toggling both sides this is rank hypocrisy on barack obama's part for shutting syrians out for years and now acting shocked and dopely saddened that donald trump would basically in effect do the same thing using again, my friends, let me repeat it, let's put it back up again, and we ought to put obama's countries. these are the seven countries barack obama. >> four of them. >> barack obama selected four countries, along with congress in 2015 -- 2015, hold on, and three more were added in 2016. his administration did. yes. let's look at this. you just said -- >> i believe they all talked, which is good. >> you just said he didn't

select them alone. my point isn't that donald trump implemented this correctly or it should be implemented, my point is people should keep their mouth shut and not be self-righteous when their policies led taos this stage. >> selection of these countries -- excuse me. >> you're fine. >> thank you. the selection of those countries under the obama administration was not accompanied by such nearly lethal language in an executive order that would lead you to believe, they are just edging around the fact. >> what's the word ari used, the boring word. >> again, i agree that this has been handled. >> intergovernmental review process. >> i agree completely. just barack obama doesn't need to be self-righteous about a policy if you just look at the policy is not that dramatically different when it comes to these countries in syria.

>> they were selected for a different set of reasons. they were selected for, okay, if you are somebody who can enter the united states under our visa waiver program, because you come from a country we trust, if you have traveled to one of these places in the last x amount of time, then we are going to increase the vetting. i think there are some major distinctions there. i will say, to connect this back to what we've been talking about all morning. >> i understand there are major distinctions. i'm just talking about when people say muslim ban, these were the seven selected by obama administration as the most dangerous. >> and that is, i think, one of the things we spent criticizing stephen miller and the implementation of this. the trump administration is clearly very attentive to how this will play politically. what they have done by doing this is, a, have this defense about seven countries that president obama had selected in this kind of roundabout and different way. they have been able to say, this is not a muslim ban.

they are able to tell all the people that you're e-mailing every day who support donald trump and want to see him do something along these lines while at the same time being able to say, look, we're not banning muslims. all of these other countries that are majority muslim, you can come here. >> the fact is, it's not a muslim ban. it's a travel ban from these serve countries. there are 40 plus countries that are muslim majority that aren't on this list, willie. but again, the mishandling of it by the trump administration has been frightful. >> that's part of the problem is that they said all the things kasie just said two days after the rollout. what if they said it two days before and said what you said, these are countries selected by the obama administration. >> tipping off the terrorist. >> tip off general mattis. there's substance but also rollout matters. the presentation of this matters. they could have let people with green cards in as they should

obviously. they could have let interpreters. their first act could have been to let interpreters come in. >> they had no idea. this is where the white house is lying the most, and it will come out, so they need to stop lying about it. they had no idea, willie, about the impact of this. they shot from the hip. they had no idea that people with green cards were going to have them seized. people with green cards had their green cards seized from them. they had no idea that heroes that helped us in iraq were going to be sent back home, going to be held. they had no idea. >> the first thing they did was dig in. briefings saturday from administration officials when it was very clear what they were doing was reacting to media reports. saw headlines in the "times" these people had been detained and they were reacting to that realtime. >> they dug in, meek, and they continued to lie. they need to stop lying. >> we'll be right back with senator tim kaine.

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joining us from capitol hill member of foreign relations and armed services committee, senator tim kaine of virginia. very good to have you on the

show. >> great to see you, senator. >> thanks much. >> let's jump right into business. you were out at dulles, is that correct? >> yes. i was out there yesterday afternoon. >> can you help me out, i'm seeing media reports suggesting border patrol actually did not follow the federal judge's order in allowing -- in allowing lawyers to get in and talk to people. i'm also hearing really disturbing reports that when these people that were detained did not have their lawyers, that they actually seized this green cards. can you confirm either of those two things? >> joe, i have heard that as well. let me tell you what i do know. there hasn't been anybody detained at dulles since sunday morning. but in the early hours after the order went in, there was a huge amount of confusion about it and we've heard complaints that people's green cards were seized. we've heard complaints that people were forced to sign

waivers they may have waived special immigrant visa status. we are trying to get to the bottom of that. >> do you have names of the people whose green cards were seized so they can get those green cards back? by the way, seized illegally. >> right. the whole thing about applying this to green cards and personal immigrant visa folks who helped our troops on the battlefield, whose lives were at risk and then we abandoned them in this order is outrage. but yes, lawyers at dulles have been providing names of individuals to my case work staff there over the weekend working on this, too. we haven't gotten to the bottom of the individual complaints but we have at least gotten customs and border patrol to clarify the application of the order, how it's being applied to green card holders, how it's applied to sivs and nobody then detained at dulles since sunday morning. it was rolled out so poorly, there was mass confusion. >> did any of those officials

tell you the white house had told them or suggested to them they ignore the federal orders this i know at one point stephen miller called around and told them and said ignore the hysteria on tv. any evidence of that? >> none i had from being at dulles yesterday but i believe that is true. >> will you be investigating that on the hill? a white house official could possibly -- a white house official may have actually told federal officials to ignore a federal judge's order. >> yo, absolutely. this thing was a disaster. it was bad in substance and horribly rolled out. it does appear in the first few hours after some of the court rulings in new york and virginia the white house was taking a cavalier attitude about it and saying, no, we can go ahead and idot. this is what happens when you get important national security policy made by political hacks instead of by the agencies and cabinet departments that are subject to congressional

oversight. the white house has gotten badly burned in this because they didn't pay attention to the people who knew what they were doing and listened to folks who approach everything as if it's just another political game rather than people's lives are at stake. >> so broad question about the future of the democratic party, especially given your firsthand experience with what we've all been through. there's so much going on here that we clearly say places where we can criticize what the administration is doing, how do you prevent overreach, rebuild, continuation of the bubble in a situation like this? how does the party reclaim its reach across the country while fighting these battles? >> well, let me take about continuation of the bubble, mika. this is something i'm so excited about. i saw that howard dean tweeted at me the other day, tim, the base is getting ahead of the leaders.

that's exactly backward. we are so excited that the american public is energized to speak out against the abuses of this administration. democratic senators led health care rallies, save our health care on martin luther king day and 5 cities around the country, including richmond, tens of thousands of people rallied to save our health care. then the women's march that was organized at a grassroots level. then people coming out and protesting these orders. so the way we get outside the bubble is we take advantage of this tremendous public outcry against the administration. what we've got to do is fight in congress, fight in the courts, fight in the streets, fight online, fight at the ballot box. now there's momentum to be able to do this. we're not afraid of the popular outcry, we're energized by it and that's going to help us do our job and do it better. >> senator kaine, willie geist, good to have you. >> hey, willie, thanks. >> a lot of people out in the streets feel like they have done

their part and now they are turning to you all to do something about these executive orders. what specifically recourse do you have as umbrellas senator to stop some of the things donald trump is doing out of the white house? >> sure. just on the executive orders we've got a couple of things before us right now. we've got the rex tillerson state department nomination on the floor. this executive order about immigration, because it affects our relationship with the world is exactly the kind of thing that should cause us to chew up some time on the tillerson nomination and expose our concerns about the executive orders. i've come out in opposition to the tillerson nomination. i'm on foreign relations committee. after i asked him a series of questions in the hearing that i didn't feel like he would answer. i feel like he demonstrated he still had a lingering loyalty to exxonmobil rather than the united states i'm opposed to him. we're going to use our time and use the nominations going forward, especially 18 nominations to demonstrate where we are contravening these

administration policies. >> in terms, senator, this specific travel ban, immigration, executive order, do you have to lean on the courts or what can you do about it? >> introduce legislation to rescind or dramatically revise it. look, we're realistic. we're the minority party in both houses but there are a number of republicans, especially in the senate, who have spoken out against this, are very embarrassed by it. look, we'll be pushing legislatively, we'll be pushing in the courts, and we will be energized by this activism. i'll give you another example. i asked tough questions of betsy devos, the hearing on secretary of education. that led to 25,000 letters and calls to my office. the single most important issue if you measure it by call and letter volume of anything that's happened in four years in the senate. so there's a connection between popular activism, things we can do here in the halls of the senate, things lawyers are doing in court, and it's going to take all of that, all of that to put

up a guardrail against abuses by this administration. >> kasie. >> senator, kasie hunt. there is a lot of energy on the streets right now for people who support you. but i have a very important question for you, who is the leader? who is the leader to capture all this? >> i think that's old time thinking to think you have to organize this in a pyramid with one person at the top. >> i'm not asking about a pyramid but who can actually take this and push it forward in a real way? >> let me tell you, i do think the democrats in the senate because we -- they don't give democrats in the house in minority many tools. it's just majority vote. joe knows this. if you're in the minority, the majority can steamroll you. >> we always tell people when they first come to the house, this is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship, top down, whoever is in charge. >> it's kind of the way it goes. in the senate we do have tools,

filibuster, cloture, ability to slow things down, sometimes stop things and we're going to use all these tools. right now chuck schumer, the democratic senate leader is the most united states and he is organizing us, but also saying, you know, we don't need to just grab the reins away from the grass roots. this grass roots activism is not something where we feel like the base is running away from us. we're energized by this. >> senator tim kaine, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. very good to see you again. still to come, senator rand paul will be our guest. we'll be back.

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we're learning new details about the man accuse of carrying out that dead deadly shooting in a canadian mosque. the suspect has been identified as 27-year-old appeared in court yesterday where he was charge with six counts of first degree murder and five counts of attempted murder. police have not offered a motive for what they are calling an act of terrorism.

former classmate told nbc news the suspect frequented facebook pages that deal with immigration issues and that he had seen him comment on pages linked to a far right nationalist anti-immigration group. police say that a second man detained after the attack is considered a witness and not a suspect. canadian prime minister justin trudeau and his wife joined community members last night for a vigil for the victims of the mosque shooting. trudeau marched alongside citizens carrying a sign that read "solidarity toward muslims" in french. he received a call from president trump who expressed his condolences to the prime minister and the people of canada. still ahead on "morning joe," president trump fires the acting attorney general who he accuses of betraying the department of justice. plus, new details on the botched rollout of the president's travel ban. reports that the white house turned to congressional staffers for help drafting the executive order while their boss is on the hill and top cabinet officials

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acting coach, because i know him very well. i don't see him as a crier. if he is, he's a different man. 5% chance that it was real but i think they were fake tears. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's tuesday, january 31st, 8:00 a.m. on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. out west. onset we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle and kasie hunt, white house correspondent for the "wall street journal" cara lee, and law professor at george washington university jonathan turley. >> this morning there is a new top law enforcement officer running the justice department. >> white house relieved active attorney general sally yates after she told them to the no defend the executive order. yates was president obama's deputy attorney general and stayed on to bridge the gap between his administration and the confirmation of trump's attorney general. but last night she issued a statement saying in part, quote, my responsibility is to ensure that the position of the

department of justice is not only legally defense i believe, but is informed by our best view of what the law is after consideration of all the facts. in addition, i am responsible for ensuring that the positions we take in court remain consistent with this institution's solemn obligation to always seek justice and stand for what is right. at present, i am not convinced that the defense of the executive order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am i convinced that the executive order is lawful. white house officials say the replacement dana boente was sworn in last night at 9:00 p.m. a few minutes later the white house sent out a statement saying in part, the acting attorney general, sally yatsz, has betrayed the department of justice by refusing to enforce a legal order designed to protect the citizens of the united states. this order was approved as to form and legality by the department of justice office of legal counsel.

ms. yates is an obama administration appointee who is weak on borders and very weak on illegal immigration. it's time to get serious about protecting our country. calling for tougher vet for individuals traveling from seven dangerous places is not extreme. it is reasonable and necessary to protect our country. democrats responded on the senate floor late last night. >> of course we had a monday night massacre. sally yates, a person of great integrity who follows the law, was fired by the president. she was fired because she would not enact, pursue the executive order on the belief that it was illegal. perhaps unconstitutional. it was a profile encourage. we are a nation that is a rule of law. and you just can't sit down, twitter something out, and then

think, okay, let's enact it. >> yates' replacement boente has been with the justice department for more than 30 years and ris resume includes famously prosecuting republican governor bob mcdonnell. the senate judiciary committee is expected to vote on jeff sessions as attorney general. >> all right. so let's -- jonathan turley, let's go to you. before we do, actually, the word betray, using the word betray for something is frightening. that's what -- >> exactly. >> -- an autocrat would use, whoever put that word in there. >> weak on borders, weak on immigration. >> now, there are people that can have reasonable differences without saying that if they don't agree with you they betray you. that is fight arightening, chil language. whether they have the right to do this or not, most legal experts would suggest the president did have a right to do this. but to say that somebody betrayed the justice department

because they don't agree with you, take that to venezuela. we don't want to use that language here. it's time for you guys to grow up. it really is time for you to grow up. now let's go to the larger point, did the white house, did the administration have a right to replace an acting justice department official that would not enact their order? >> they absolutely had that right. there's no question at all about that. this is a very curious move by the former acting attorney general in some respects. as you know, i think this executive order was a terrible mistake. i said that seconds after it was signed. >> right. >> but on the constitutional basis, the law favors trump on the constitutionality -- >> that's what i was going to ask you because yesterday we had this discussion, and i was asleep for only half of my two constitution allow classes in law school. this does seem like this will

not be overturned by courts. there may be parts that are modified here and there. >> that's right. >> it's not going to be overturned if second she said she wasn't going to enforce this, this did seem, did it not, to be a political decision on her part which certainly was within her right. but a curious decision for a justice department official to make. >> i thought it was very odd. i don't know what her motivat n motivations were. on the constitutional side it favors him. on the statutory side there's an argument in 1965 law but compelling arguments on the other side supporting the president. that's not the type of circumstance where the head of an agency tells all of the lawyers in the justice department not to assist the president of the united states. this is the same justice department that just last year was defending president obama in arguing for unilateral authority, saying that judges should not second-guess the president on immigration. it's the same justice department that defended the so-called torture program. it's very inconsistent. on top of that in her letter she

bases it in part upon statements that she refers to, presumably by president trump on the campaign and rudy giuliani about the motivation behind this executive order. there's a longstanding policy that justice department and cases, cases i have been chief defense counsel on, where they argue that that type of motivation evidence is completely i'm tear material. they have a longstanding position on that. what the president said on the campaign trail will not be viewed at all relevant by the court as to what was -- what is the legality of this executive order. his intent could have changed. or the people that drafted it could have had a different intent. the whole letter was rather curious, as you say. yes, he had the right to fire her. >> he certainly did. and, mike barnicle, here we have such over reaching. let's start with the democrats calling this the saturday night massacre. this is not the saturday night massacre. this is probably going to be constitutional order somebody just decided not to follow up. just like democrats and some

people in the press were calling it a muslim ban. it's not a muslim ban. it's a travel ban. i'm talking about how courts will see this. >> correct. >> don't attack me. this is howle federal courts will see this. so as a matter of law. that said, the trump administration, first of all donald trump mocking senator for crying, seriously? and then this. i want us to stop -- i want to circle this word. >> betray. >> because it's frightening. >> betrayed the department of justice. >> to suggest that someone acting as a conscientious objector to a law that has divided this country would be termed as somebody that has, quote, betrayed the justice department, that is deeply, deeply offensive, first of all, but, secondly, it is frightening that the trump administration actually views dissent that way.

>> in addition to that, the statement continued. the president's statement continued that she, the personal attack, she's weak on border, weak on immigration because she's a democrat and because she opposed this order, which was her right to do and, you know, jonathan turley is probably correct. you're probably correct. >> it was his right to fire her. >> absolutely. i don't know what's going to happen in the courts. the last time i was in court i was the plaintiff. >> right. >> but -- >> you mean the defendant, but go ahead. big difference. >> that's why i was in court. >> exactly. >> what we've had here is a series of virtual stun grenades called executive orders. and we're going the have another one this evening in order to distract people. the announcement of the supreme court justice. but in speaking with several people in washington many of them the same people that the two of you spoke with over the weekend, several of them with expertise in fighting terror in this country. they raise the issue over and over and over again of

incompetence versus ideology. incompetence. the incompetence in the drawing up of the executive order on immigration and the asking -- specifically, you know, where was pakistan in this list? where is africa ghanistan on th list? belgium. >> it was not only the incompetence and people say why are you picking on steven pilar because he drafted it and he made the decision to keep the agency out of it. of course the buck always stops at donald trump but if we're looking at the architect of this chaos, donald trump did what donald trump promised he was going to do in the campaign. stephen miller drafted something that was -- and didn't talk to the other agency heads, that has caused an absolute not meltdown but war of words behind the scenes with donald trump's foreign policy team who has been left in the dark. >> so in a moment we'll go

inside how we got to this moment, how the white house botched the rollout of the travel ban and managed to infour yat not only house republicans but leave their top cabinet members in the cold. and later, snenator rand paul joins us from washington. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. la quinta presents "how to win at business." step one: suck on and point decisively with the arm of your glasses. it is no longer eyewear, it is your wand of business wizardry. abracadabra. you've just gone from invisible to invincible. step two: before your meeting, choose la quinta. the only hotel where you can redeem loyalty points for a free night-instantly so you can prepare to win at business. book now at lq.com why pause a spontaneous moment? cialis for daily use treats ed and the urinary symptoms of bph. tell your doctor about your medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex.

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there's more reporting this morn that top lawmakers and top cabinet members were left in the dark as the travel ban, the executive order was being developed, written, and rolled out. think about that. the associated press reports at least three top national security officials, defense secretary jim mattis, homeland security secretary john kelly, and rex tillerson have told associates they were not aware of details of the directive until around the time trump

signed it. leading intelligence officials were also left largely in the dark, according to u.s. officials. the report goes on, quote, mattis, who stood next to trump during friday's signing ceremony, is said to be particularly incensed. a senior u.s. official said mattis along with joint chiefs chairman doneford was aware of the general concept of trump's order but not the details. tillerson has told the president's political advisers that he was baffled over not being consulted over the substance of the order. then there's the lawmakers, insiders blasted communication with the hill as terrible. newt gingrich told "the washington post," the problem they've got is this is an off-broadway performance of a show that is now the number one hit on broadway. aides confirm to nbc news that neither house homeland security michael mccaul nor bob goodlatte was consulted on the executive order. politico reports that senior

staffers on goodlatte's committee helped them draft the executive order but the republican committee chairman and party leadership were not informed. >> so these people who worked for the chairman of the judiciary committee did it behind his back and did not inform him. >> these are people also that can give you context ability perhaps how this rollout should roll out, maybe what should happen first, what are the different dynamics around the world that could be impacted. so you actually have some thought behind some young kid's draft on an order. >> young kid's draft that caused chaos across the globe, has implicated -- >> i goes on television doubling down and tripling down on it as if he runs the place. >> by the way, he's not going on television you guys should probably keep him off television. so the white house kept talking. they've talked for the past couple of days about keeping this closely held because they didn't want to tip off

terrorists who would then come to the country. i'm just wondering, what exactly is in general james mattis' background that concerns stephen miller so much that he felt the need to keep our secretary of defense in the dark to the details? i'm wondering, what exactly is in general john kelly's background and service to this country and war and peace that made stephen miller think that that general who has given his all for this country, who has given a son for this country should be left in the dark about an executive order that actually impacts homeland security, impacts our fight against terror.

what exactly buzz in mike pompeo's background, what exactly was in rex tillerson's background that made miller think that he could not trust these men, to give them the information that they needed to actually implement this in a way that didn't embarrass the united states and this administration in the eyes of the world. what was it, willie? why -- when stephen miller, i'm going to say this, every time stephen miller and sean spicer and anybody -- steve and anybody else in the administration says we had to keep this closely held because if we didn't then terrorists would get the word and this is going to happen and come to the united states. what we're saying is we don't trust -- stephen miller and steve bannon is saying we don't trust general mattis. we don't trust general kelly. we don't -- no, no, no. of course i think they're knowing better. this is worse.

they're saying that general mattis, general kelly, director pompeo, and secretary of state rex tillerson -- >> and general doneford. >> they are saying they could not be trusted. they could not be trusted. stephen miller says they could not be trusted with this information or terrorists might find out. think about that for a second. and ask your if you're one of these american heroes why you would stick around and work for a -- first word i can't say, but the second word is show, for this crap show. why would you work at this place if this ever happened again. >> and you have to wonder right now what the conversations are like between general mattis and donald trump, between general kelly and donald trump. if this is your first interaction in office, head of

he's departments, your first interaction with the obama -- excuse me, with the trump administration, you have to wonder what the hell does the future look like. and by the way, it's not just these guys. it's the head of foreign relations committee, bob corker. >> bob corker left in the dark. >> head of foreign relations. paul ryan. bob corker told "the washington post" he found out through the media. >> oh, my god. >> some staffers on the hill but not in our office. marco rubio said our staff was told the state department today not to talk to congress about the issue. >> by the way, just so the 30 somethings and the trump administration, in case they don't understand this, the hill, they fund the state department. they fund the white house. like this -- they need to call them up to the hill tomorrow and get answers. >> and then the other side of this, kasie, is all the staffers who according to politico work secretly with the white house put this stotogether without tag

their boss sdm why are they still on the hill this morning. >> i think that's a piece of this, all of this chaos that actually could last for quite some time because, frankly, donald trump was having a grace period with capitol hill. there were a lot of republicans who were trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. they. still don't understand why they won. they're a little scare of that and trying to stay away from it. you saw it in that statement paul ryan put out on friday. you know, he said, okay, we need to make the nation safer but it was clearly before even he had had a chance to digest any of this. and the idea that they're going to go around committee chairmen to their staff and not inform the person at the head of the committee, they are playing with fire. coming up on "morning joe," the president is expected to announce a supreme court nominee tonight. we'll bring in legal expert jonathan turley. back with his insight. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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welcome back. president trump says he will make his choice to replace antonin scalia at 8:00 tonight. >> jonathan turley, what can you tell us about any of the candidateses? >> well, the leading candidates all fit the bill in terms of what donald trump said on the

campaign trail. many of these people really serve the function of being vaccinated against the suitor virus. these are people who are virtually guaranteed not to go from the right to the left on the court. they've long histories of voting in a conservative way. i clerked with one of them. i clerked with pryor on the 5th circuit. he's rock solid in terms of his conservative views. gorsuch is viewed as a little lesser on some issues. he's a profound writer. he's very, very intelligent. and he has a lot of supporters on the court of appeals. but it's hardiman from the third circuit that has a curious advantage. that is the support of donald trump's sister. she can give a personal account reportedly favors him a great deal. we do know that president trump relies on close advisers for

these types of decisions. what's important is that all three of these justices would give trump another promise that he could fulfill. now, this would not move the needle much on the court in terms of the center or graphity. they will be swapping out a conservative for a conservative. but they are also replacing a conservative icon. ca scalia was not vus a conservative volt, he was a light ning rod on the court but they will be able to replace him in terms of conservative vote on tissues. then the question will become the three justices in their 80s during donald trump's first term. those justices, if they were replaced by president trump, could have a transformative affect on the court. >> jonathan turley, thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, we'll talk to former presidential candidate and senator rand paul. we'll see how much of a heads up he got about the president's executive action travel ban.

the point is that you can go through the nick-pick and say this individual is, but that's why we slow it down a little and make sure if they're a 5-year-old they're with their parents and don't pose a threat. just to assume that they don't pose a threat would be misguided an wrong. >> welcome back to "morning joe." among those impacted by president trump's immigration order are some iraqis who aided the american military during the recent wars there and who after years of waiting finally were set to immigrate to the united states. nbc's chief foreign affairs correspondent richard engel has the story. >> reporter: i'm richard engel in irbil, iraq, with the zarif family who left everything they knew behind and got on a plane heading for their new home in america. they only got as far as their layover in cairo where a gate agent told him he and his family would be detained and deported. >> what happened when you told everybody we're not going?

>> well, that was a terrible moment. when you saw their faces, they turned pale and they were about to faint, believe me. >> reporter: the family was traveling on a special visa which they got because he was a translator for the u.s. government during the iraq war. he showed it to me. >> it's issued by u.s. embassy. after two years of investigation and vetting. >> reporter: even though translators like him risk their lives working for americans in iraq, and some were killed for it, it's taken a long time for the u.s. state department to approve their visas. now they're all on hold because of president trump's orders. >> american government invited me, gave me visa, told me come, you have helped us in the past. it's unbelievable. >> reporter: 19-year-old already knows he loves america. the state department invited him for an exchange program. one of his favorite memories was going to a white sox game. >> so i fell in love with the

place, with the mindset american welcoming way of life and their optimism. >> reporter: convinced they were leaving with their new visas, he and his wife quit their jobs, sold their house and furniture. their only possessions left are in suitcases by the door. but there's nowhere to go. the state department still has not clarified what will happen with visas issued to translators like him. they put their lives on the line for the united states and now they find themselves waiting and confused. >> nbc's richard engel report ing there. joining the table, contributor to "time" magazine and msnbc political analyst alease jordan and on capitol hill her former boss, republican senator of kentucky rand paul. welcome to you both. senator, let me start with you. we know the people who were not consulted before this hit the press about the immigration order from president trump. generals mattis, kelly, doneford, textiler son, bob corker, the chair of your

foreign relations committee, speaker paul ryan. were you given a heads up or consultation on this executive order? >> well, you know, i was told about 400 times over a jyear an a half that he was going to do this so i guess i'm not surprised in the rollout. i was not specifically consulted and obviously there are some things that didn't go perfectly. but i think really people ought to step back and see if we can agree that there's a problem in order to decide whether we like the solution. and the problem is pretty clear, that about 40% of people who come to visit our country on a visa overstay their visa and we have no idea where they are. on 9/11 at least two of the hijackers were here on visa. they were traveling back and forth to the middle east. and we really had no idea where they were or what they were doing and they were overstaying their visa. so there are problems i think in the immigration system that need to be fixed for our safety. in addition to that, in my hometown, bowling green, kentucky, we had two iraqi refugees. one of them's fingerprints was

on an ied and yet he got through the screening process, was living in our town, in government housing, on government assistance, and nobody knew that he was already a saboture and trying to buy missiles to harm us once he got in this country. there is a problem and we have to get together and figure out how to solve this problem. but i think many are just looking at the solution saying they don't like the solution but they're not admitting that there's a problem. >> it's fair to look now at the solution because it's the one that president trump has proposed and, in fact, signed off an executive order. do you think the specifics of what's in that order address your concerns, the ones you just laid out? >> well, i think you have to pause the system from areas of high risk for terrorism until you can improve the system. overall, do i believe exchange with other cultures is good, people going back and forth is good, trade is good, yes. all of these things are good. but i think you have to make sure the system is working. we need to know virtually 100%

of the time when you come and when you leave. it's called entry and exit. we do need to know that. and here's the problem that faces europe. in europe a million people went into germany. some of them presented with one name and no papers. so if you call back to syria and say, my name is so-and-so and you ask for the agency to check this person with one name, there is no agency. it's chaos over there. so vetting these people is very, very difficult. and i think we need to do more vetting of people coming with one name from various countries in the middle east. >> senator paul, just looking at the big picture, do you think that trump is use -- that president trump is using executive authority appropriately? and you've been an outspoken advocate in the past for congress restraining executive authority. how do you think he is implementing his new power? >> well, aim a big believer in the separation of powers that most things should originate out of the legislature. and even this, immigration, the overall fix to the entry and

exit needs to come from the legislature, not the president. i do think though that in president obama's overreach by creating executive orders he created things that are tech rare and can be undone by executive order. undoing previous executive orders i'm kind of fine with. we creating whole immigration law, no, that needs to be done by congress. >> senator, back to bowling green, kentucky, do you think since that glaring, glaring example of inkocompetence in tes of vetting do you think the vetting process has been upticked and improved since that happened? >> i think they tried but i'm not convinced of it. so, for example, to convince someone like me who is skeptical that the problem is fixed you need to let me know that instead of 40% of people overstaying their visas, maybe 10% or 5% are. we need to get a better handle. we have computers. we should know everybody who comes in and everybody who leaves and if they haven't left after their six months or

one-year visa, they need to be notified and someone needs to say, why haven't you left. >> senator, was that the event that led to president obama and congress picking the seven countries? >> yes. it led to the increased vetting and the pause that was put on syrian refugees and i think also iraqi refugees for about six months. this was done by president obama in response to the possibility or the attempted bombing in bowling green, kentucky, where i live. >> so going back and i understand that you think that there is a need obviously that in a tough aggressive way, and i think many of us agree with that position as well. are you concerned about the rollout? are you concerned that general mattis wasn't notified, that rex tillerson and others weren't given input on this first? >> i don't know the interworkings of who was notified and who wasn't notified. i can say there is a way to do this and i had legislation to do

this a while back. and at the same time enhance travel. so we have something called global entry. i'm in it. many international travelers are in it. if you are a legitimate person in syria, iraq, saudi arabia, doing business, we want you to come back and forth. if you're a student or a professor giving a speech, we want you to come back and forth. but let's get them into global entry. >> i totally agree with you. my question is are you concerned -- they certainly are telling associates they were not -- especially general kelly who runs the department of homeland security, was not notified. should he have been notified? >> i don't know who was and who wasn't. >> if he wasn't, should he have been notified? >> sure, everybody should. and could have probably been a little bit more forethought in this to make sure that, for example, green card holders were not swept up if this. >> right. >> so i think that that will be something that the administration learns, brand new, and i think they'll do a better job the next time around. >> so can i ask you about the

affordable care act, obamacare as it's called. you're working with the president, i guess after you're on the show. you guys spoke. and you're working with the president for a fix for obamacare. how is that progressing? what's that looking like? and for republicans in kentucky and republicans in connecticut who voted for donald trump and who were on obamacare, can you assure them that they will still be covered? >> yeah, our goal is to ensure that most amount of people with the least amount of cost, our goal is also to put forward a replacement bill. two bills. one bill is going to repeal. but it also involves what is left. that will be one bill. the other bill will be the replacement bill that i've worked on. i put together a bill and it has the consensus ideas that most republicans agree to and hopefully some reasonable democrats. it would legalize the sale of inexpensive insurance. you can buy catastrophic insurance if you want to. it would expand health savings accounts so you can save, pay

your premiums, copays out of your health savings account. has a tax credit to put money into your health savings account. the third thing it does which is important is it let's individuals join together and buy insurance as a large group so they can have leverage to have a lower price and so they can be protected against things like pre-existing conditions or some of your family gets ill. >> all right. thank you so much, senator rand paul. greatly appreciate you being here as always. so the travel ban is also taking a toll on the markets. let's bring in dominick chu. wall street relakted very badly to this travel ban. had its worse day of the year yesterday. what are markets looking like this morning. >> joe, what we got right now are marginal losses again to build on to like you said the worst day for the dow, the s&p, the nasdaq, up 2017 so far. because host of america's biggest companies have come out voicing concerns about the immigration ban, the travel restrictio restrictions. now reuters is reporting a group of tech companies are planning to meet today to discuss the

possibility of filing documents with u.s. courts that are meant to support lawsuits against president trump's immigration policies. so all of that uncertainly weighing on the markets overall. one real world impact on business is coming by aerospace giant boeing. some experts are worried that this immigration status action, everything else could jeopardize an estimated $20 billion worth of deals that boeing has with countries like iran and iraq. both countries on that president's list of travel restrictions. so some real world economic impacts as well. now, besides -- i was just going to say besides that, everything else going on in the marketplace is going to be focussed precisely on what trump is going to be doing about the economy and business overall, guys. >> all right. sounds great. thank you so much for being with us. coming up next, is president trump prepares to nominate a successor to justice scalia, how will democrats handle the nomination after being denied a vote on eric garland? well, that's -- >> filibuster. >> not so well. we'll tell you why coming up

next on "morning joe."

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47 past. welcome back to "morning joe." in a moment we're going to play for you some advice from my dad, dr. brzezinski that he has for president trump. but first, a quick look at some of the ground we've covered so far in this very busy tuesday. >> president trump fires the acting attorney general who he accuses of betraying the department of justice. >> most legal experts would

suggest that the president did have a right to do this. but saying that somebody betrayed the justice department? it's time for you guys to grow up. >> at least three top national security officials told associates they were not aware of details of the directives until around the time trump signed it. >> stephen miller says they could not be trusted with this information. >> and the idea that they're going to go around committee chairmen, they are playing with fire. >> i think you have to pause the system from areas of high risk for terrorism until you can improve the system. >> you have to recognize donald trump is a ceo is used to bb the authority tative leader who gets things done. i like the energy. i like the action. and this instance it went wrong. >> you were out dulles, is that correct? >> yes. we heard complaints that people's green cards were seized. this is what happens when you get important national security policy being made by political hacketts. executive order thing only goes so far. it'sen couldn't shunable the

speaker of the house had no idea about a major change in immigration policy. >> i got one source say he picks up his own subway sandwich which of course only one -- >> does he get the skinny or not. i need better sourcing. >> get back to work. >> there you go, hans. >> hans really does. >> he did. >> he brings us -- >> scattered off the set, full sprint. joining us now, president of public policy organization dem moss, heather mcgee. good to have you onboard. >> and also gets her own subway sandwich. >> like the general. >> like the general. >> they call me mad dog mcgee. >> exactly. >> okay. >> exactly. so we've seen a lot of protests. we've seen the resistance growing. how is that converted not only in to one day winning the white house back but winning the thousand seats, democrats have lost over the past six years? >> that really is the million dollar question right now. we've seen it already convert into so much citizen activism in

terms of the switchboards being lit up, right, so much so that the trump white house wanted to just go ahead and tump off the phones to the public, which is terrifying. but we have seen so many people who have never taken a political act before outside of voting going into the streets, writing their senator, asking what they can do, meeting with their neighbors, taking guides as this organization called indivisible that set out a guide for what you can do in this moment to be effective with your legislator. they're seeing this link from jeff sessionss and his staff to this likely illegal ban. >> how do they answer the president's question which, where were you in november? i thought we already had an election. >> well -- >> do you think the people -- yeah, but he's still president. are there people out there that did not vote, do you think, significant number? >> there are hundreds of millions of people who did not vote in this election. it's not clear who they would

have voted for. it's also clear that the republican-led voter suppression across the kuncountry was effece in many different places. >> do you think donald trump won because of voter suppression? >> i think there are a number of different reasons why he was able to take the electoral college. but i think the people i talked to, for example, this weekend and at the women's march were people who actually were not as upset about the election outcome as they were about the threat to fundamental values. and this ban goes to that, right? this country was founded on an idea of religious freedom. we don't tell people how to pray and we don't ban people because of what they believe. and we know that there's fundamentalism in every religion, the kkk, which endorsed this president, was started as a christian faith and of course the vast majority of christians reject that. the same with islam, which is the vast majority of muslims in this country are moderate muslims who reject fundamentalists, isis-like

beliefs. and so we've got to get a lot more sophisticated in this country. i think the media plays a role in telling people about, for example, my mother-in-law who was a pakistani woman who came to this country, an architect, an artist, and raised a beautiful family. so we've just got to realize that there's something more than just the momentary opposition to trump, that is about our fundamental american values. >> i do think that was a shift we see even from the women's march to this past weekend and people pro testing this travel ban. but my question would be for you, how are you aiming to make this a bipartisan movement and drawing people from across the aisle? is this going to be a movement that's above politics and about protecting the conversations stuks a constitution and all americans matter or is this going to be a democratic political move snmt. >> that's the question for the dozens of republicans who are in the never trump party who said that he was unfit, who called

including the vice president this very idea of a muslim ban unconstitutional and wrong. that is actually the test for the republican party at this moment. are they going to put the level of power that they have right now ahead of their love of country. >> is there a test for the democrats to reach out to people who don't share their world view? >> absolutely. i think that is actually what's happening. we've got this country right now that it's funny. ve this left/right ideology but on big issues, fundamental values issues, big issues about money and politics, the economy, people are a lot more outside of the beltway and outside of the political class united. i think about this right now in terms of the supreme court nominee, we're going to see. we are going to be focused on what is he, most likely, doing to have to say about citizens united which is something that actually gets citizens united in this country, is this desire to overturn that? that's across the ideological spectrum outside of the beltway but inside washington you have mitch mcconnell being the most pro big money. in some ways i think washington

has to get a little more connected to what's going on outside of the country where people are worried about their democracy. >> so former national security adviser dr. brzezinski, my dad, is offering strategic visions for president trump for seismic shifts taking place on world stable. in a interview over the weekend he repeated his call for president trump to make a major speech on foreign policy, not just for an american audience but for our allies, too. >> here is a president who is now been elected president who goes to the cia building and gives a mystifying speech as to what he really has in mind. here's a president who makes very elusive statements about the future. he's obviously very intelligent, bright person. but he's not a person who has so far chosen to communicate

responsibly with the american people and then with the rest of the world about the world that we all, them and us, have to live together. >> and, willie, he was saying right after the inaugural speech, you've got to give a speech to your allies. you've got to talk to nato. you've got to talk to the world. right now though there's just a lot of unease among allies. >> yeah, well, he's done the opposite of that. one of his executive orders was to begin the process of our withdrawal or at least our lack of support for the u.n. these are the international organizations that i think dr. brzezinski would like to be brought in on -- >> which, by the way, they are now asking the u.n. to get involved on iran. >> right. right. >> you can't have it both ways. >> that's right. >> just like they're going to have to ask nato down the road for favors as well. >> yeah. i think though, heather, expecting donald trump to become sort of this worldly president who thinks about all our allies when he makes decisions might be wishful thinking.

to say the least. they've explicitly said america first and that guides everything they do from immigration policy to relationships with allies around the world. >> listen, i love the idea of putting american interests first. i think every american wants to know that we are being protected. the thing is, about this country is that we are nation of immigrants, of people who have a connection to every single community on the globe. this is a wildly interconnected economy and society. and so the idea that we are never going to need to have shown respect to other countries and ask them to respect us and our moral authority across the globe, which is plummeting right now, that's what's going to keep americans safe. >> dr. brzezinski also actually talked about immigration even before the order was signed. watch this. >> refugees to europe m and europe increasing the worry,

this could become too many, but at the same time, curiously heartless and there's a difference to those who are arriving practically drowning on the edge of the shore, losing their kids in the process and so forth. and then promptly repeatriating them from where they escaped. not to be wanted and to be resented and yet also to be feared and also to be ones self fearful and resentful that others haven't held out their hands. but let's face it, human beings are still very generous. >> and there you have a refugee talking. your mother was a refugee. both escaping hitler in world war ii. and how many stories we heard over the past five days. we went to washington. i spoke with several democratic senators. i spoke with the top obama official, former obama -- they

all have stories about how they were refugees. how their mother, father, grandfather came over here. i talked to joe munchen who very conservative guy talking about his -- his grandma being down at the bottom of the boat not being able to come up and kept fighting to get up the stairs because people started screaming the lady, the lady. and she kept fighting nape kept throwing her down. you don't belong up here. finally she scratched and clawed her way up -- >> and got to see -- >> the sdat chew of lstatue of . he said the first time he went by in his boat he broke down in tears weeping because that's the promise of america. and it has been for hundreds of years. >> and are we going to let that proud legacy be changed by executive order that no one throughout the federal government has any accountability over? and that congress has no authority over? >> very stark terms what just

happened. >> believe that this will be resolved in 120 day or 90 days nape set that as an initial benchmark but they said explicitly they reserve the right to broaden it. >> i think it's going to be chabed. >> until we knee what the hell happens or what the hell is going on. >> it's already being amended because it hasn't been thought out. >> this is steve bannon's vision, right? this is the risk of basically raising a leader of a racist blog to the joint chiefs of staff. we know what his vision has been. it is so far outside of american values. and that's why i think people have an opportunity in congress right now to really ask jeff sessions who is connected very much to this ideology, who was too racist to be a judge, you know, a decade ago and is now potentially going to be the person who has to say no to this president. and i don't have the confidence that he would ifr do that. >> tonight at 8:00 president trump will be announcing his

choice for the supreme court, which is yet another -- >> another battle, which we will covering here tomorrow morning. and it will be another exhausting day. this is nonstop. it just keeps coming at you, doesn't it? >> it does. >> it just keeps coming at you. >> that does it for us right now. heather mcghee, thank you very much. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> thank you, guys. hi there. i am chris jansing in for stephanie republican bresteph. breaking overnight. president trump fires the acting attorney general after she refuses to enforce his travel ban. >> she was fired because she would not enact, pursue the executive order on the belief that it was illegal. >> a new acting attorney general now in. taking to the streets. mass protests across the country. police in ohio using pepper spray to push back