good evening. i'm ari melber anchoring from msnbc world headquarters for the next two hours. and here is the reality, right now. north korea, testing president trump. an unexpected ballistic missile test from north korea did not get a ballistic response from trump or much response at all. the president speaking for under 20 seconds and held his fire so far on twitter. why the new tone? plus, executive power beyond question? the white house firing back at protesters today, sending out a controversial trump aide steven miller with a message for the

masses. >> i want to say something very clearly. this is going to be very disappointing to the people protesting the president and the people in congress, like senator schumer, who have attacked the president for his lawful and unnecessary action. thepowers here are beyond question. president trump doubling down on deportations by ice in a brand-new message this is even, of course, as the white house considers trimming its sales with a narrower executive order that could come out on the travel ban as early as tomorrow. also, later this hour, we debut a new segment for tracking the trump presidency, normal or not. but we begin with the firepower out east today. north korea's missile test. president trump heading back to washington at this hour, he's not elaborated on the admittedly brief comments about the test from saturday night. north korea has, we can tell you this, brand-new, the state run media is saying they did launch that intermediate range ballistic missile towards japan

which would be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead, and that kim jong-un personally supervised this test. that is state run media. no confirmation of the claims. but officials say the missile did not reach japanese waters. now, all of the timing here did look like a deliberate attempt to undercut president trump's meeting with shinzo abe at mar-a-lago forcing both leaders to re-emerge in front of the white house press corps traveling there and abe had to call that launch absolutely intolerable, then the president spoke for 18 seconds. >> thank you very much, mr. prime minister. i just want everybody to understand and fully know that the united states of america stands behind japan, its great ally, 100%. thank you. >> and that was it. no further signals from the white house today. so questions obviously do remain as to how the administration

might formally condemn this test beyond those remarks. or even seek some tangible consequences or sanctions. hans nichols has been busy on this story all weekend live from washington tonight. what is the latest? >> what you reported, ari, in terms of what the north koreans are claiming, let's run that through what the pentagon thinks, there is a debate inside the pentagon on whether north korea has the technology to miniaturize the nuclear weapons. that's a big debate. some folks you talk to say yes they do have that technology. there hasn't been a formal assessment from the ic that north korea has that technology. here's what we know. a medium range missile, this was not the big icbm that kim jong-un had bragged about saying they're in the final stages. this isn't the one that can hit the west coast of united states. that said, giving the timing, given the visit of shinzo abe here in the states, clearly being viewed by provocative in tokyo as well as seoul, now, norad, which tracks these

things, they put out a statement here, they did not seem overly concerned. here is the statement that came late last night. it was the north american aerospace defense command determined the missile launch from north korea did not pose a threat to north america. you hinted at this in your lead-in. this becomes a political question, a question of what donald trump's national security team is going to do, how staffed they are, what their responses will be, we heard some condemnations from nato. we also heard that from the eu. nothing from china. that is always the one you're looking for here. and just a little bit of background, during the obama administration, these would be fairly routine and they launched a couple of medium range missiles in october. in general you get qualified condemnation, not defcon five, it wasn't under the obama administration. we'll see to what extent the trump administration hues to that line. >> one thing that jumps out in your reporting, talk about

miniaturization of technology, what does that mean with regard to the threat that could be on a given missile? >> so, clearly, north korea is nuclear capable. this is -- they can take that technology, shrink it down, put it atop of a warhead, and point that missile at some place that we would not like it pointed. >> thank you very much. i appreciate it. turning now for more analysis on the test and president trump's response, jim walsh is a research associate at mitt security studies program, one of the handful of people to both iran and north korea for those intense nuclear talks with officials in the north korea context, past is prologue and it is all familiar to folks who watch the news because multiple administrations have struggled with this. some things donald trump does differently. this is something that so far is pretty similar, hans is alluding to that because different administrations and different parties try to take this seriously without overreacting. what context can you add for us today? >> i think -- i can add a little pleasant news, surprisingly.

>> please. >> in pyongyang, and in washington, you have two leaders, both who are known for their tough rhetoric and brash talk and sometimes rashness in action. and so i think what we have had here is something in which both capitals have moved rather modestly. so the test that the north koreans were going to do, everyone expected them to test something at some point, they had already conducted roughly 24 tests, missile tests and the last year, they're not going to stop. but they didn't test an engine or a missile related to the icbm program they have. i think that was an effort to sort of stay below the line of provocation, do something but not too much. and then this morning, mr. trump, you know, after the 18 seconds last night, the white house has been fairly measured in its response, one white house official telling reuters that they didn't plan to escalate. part of this is, you know, the president is learning campaign talk, easy.

tough international problems, hard. and so there aren't a lot of great options here, but i think the good news is that neither side is really pushing this to the wall, right out of the gate. they're both moving rather modestly and i think that's for the good. >> you're saying that nobody is necessarily doubling down what the past president -- a good thing for that region, great, and great for american interests obviously. at the top, i think you compared kim jong-un and donald trump. i'm sure some people wouldn't take to the comparison. but i think your point was in some cases they're not being as bombastic as usual. >> exactly. >> we happen to have some evidence ready for your point. i didn't know you were going to make that point. to your point, here was donald trump on this issue during the campaign. >> with japan, they have to pay us or we have to let them protect themselves. >> if you say to japan, yes, it is fine, you get nuclear weapons, south korea, you as well, saudi arabia says we want them -- >> can i be honest with you. it is going to happen anyway. it is going to happen anyway.

it is a question of time. they're going to start having them or we have to get rid of them entirely. yo have so many countries already, china, pakistan, russia, so many countries right now that have them. now, wouldn't you rather in a certain sense have japan have nuclear weapons when north korea has nuclear weapons? and they do have them. they absolutely have them. >> wowsers as we say in the business. walk us through what he was saying there that is not true or not the current policy of the trump administration right now? >> well, a lot of it was factually wrong. you know. actually the rate of proliferation has declined over time. it peaked in the 1960s when france, israel, and china joined the nuclear club. most people don't know this, the number of new countries joining the nuclear weapons club, each year, has declined. it is not inevitable. they're not spreading like wildfire and it would be a horrible thing if japan got nuclear weapons, you will remember that japan was part of

world war ii and imperial power that did great destruction. i'm sure others in the region would not respond well if the japanese announced they would have a nuclear weapon. all of that is just, like, i don't know where that's from. but the part that i like here is that he sort of went out on a limb on this, during the campaign, and he's reeled it back in. what do we hear? we hear the standard thing that every president said after a missile test, we support our allies, we support japan 100%. we support south korea. that's a president acting more like a president. so i welcome that, that turn in phrase and hopefully that turn in policy as well. >> jim, you are one of the sunniest interviews i've done in the last several weeks and you work on nuclear issues. so it is great. the final key is -- we'll run through a couple of the recent points here. january 30th, iran had the missile test. february 30th we had -- president trump making related announcements.

another missile test on february 4th. in both of those areas you have some attempt to rebut without overreaction. my question to you is, what are we not seeing from your behind the scenes negotiations? what does this look like when the folks at the diplomatic level or back channel are talking to each other? >> two things. one, mr. trump doesn't have his team, full team in there, fully confirmed and everyone settle in. so i don't think you should be sort of doing this, you know, as he goes along. let's wait -- he should have a policy review, serious decisions. the other thing i would say though is he has an opportunity here. this is what the public doesn't recognize. north korean officials said they didn't like president obama. when president trump came in, they would turn the page, be willing to talk to him. that would be an incredibly difficult negotiation. i'm not sugar coating it. but the reality is a

negotiation, a discussion is possible for the first time in years. he is the negotiator in chief in theory. shouldn't get personally involved. but, you know, most of our policy tools here are weak. and when we had success in restraining the program, it has been through diplomacy. so i hope he uses this opportunity to explore that as a possibility, a possibility we have not really used very often in recent years this is something he gets for free for being the new president. >> jim walsh, m.i.t. security studies, i like your style, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, ari. have a good night. >> the other big issue on the white house agenda this week, the fate of that travel ban after three federal judges ruled that it should stay blocked until a trial is held. steven mill, former aide to the new attorney general jeff sessions put out something that was a little confused about the law, this was on meet the press today. he basically argued there is no judicial supremacy in american democracy. >> we heard a lot of talk about how all the branches of government are equal. that's the point.

they are equal. there is no such thing as judicial supremacy. what the judges did, both of the ninth and district level, was to take power for themselves that belonged squarely in the hands of the president of the united states. >> the three branches of government are co-equal, but there is judicial supremacy on what the law means and the judges have final say on whether a government action is constitutional. joining me now, alan dershowitz, harvard law professor, author, former supreme court clerk and experienced litigator having represented mike tyson, o.j. simpson and patty hearst among others. i wonder your views on whether the trump administration is wrong to attack the judiciary for its role in overseeing these cases, and inside the courtroom, do you think that the doj overreached in arguing that most of this action was essentially unreviewable? >> i think the justice department did overreach. it was tactically very dumb decision to make. of course we have co-equal

branches of government. one of the co-equal branches has the ultimate responsibility of interpreting the constitution. if mr. miller doesn't understand that, he ought to read marbury versus madison. john adams made the same argument and he lost. and the supreme court under an appointee of john adams, john marshall, ruled that when it comes to understanding the constitution and interpreting it, the judiciary has to prevail because you have to have one ultimate decider. now, when nice was the attorney general, he took a very controversial position, and he said, no, the president has the right to interpret the constitution as well. and, of course, he's right. president does have a right, an obligation never to try to impose an unconstitutional ruling as does the legislature. but ultimately when there is a decision that has to be reached, it must be left to the judicial branch to the supreme court of the united states. very little dispute about that

proposition. >> professor, you walked a careful line in your analysis thus far, explaining why you're skeptical of certain goals of president trump, why you think there is good law on the side of part of this order. you also cited some of the press for religious distinctions. challenger ares are arguing in the immigration law, based on national origin and the order does that on its face, in your view, is that part legal? >> first of all, it is not enforced. we have national origin discrimination, we don't allow people to come in from north korea, from cuba, from iran. we always had national origin discrimination. if you define it as coming from a particular country. where you were born shouldn't have an impact. that may be what is meant by national origin. but clearly i do think by the way that president trump's goals are admirable.

his means that i had criticism with. i don't like particularly the way in which the order was drafted. but have to make a distinction between you don't like and what is not constitutional. a lot of people assume if you don't like it, it is unconstitutional. this order is constitutional. even the original one, when it comes to the family in yemen who has never been in the united states and who simply is coming to try to get a visa to see the statue of liberty. i wish they could come. no constitutional right to do so. religious preferences are common. when the jews were the object of discrimination against the nazis and murder, we passed a 1944 war refugee board, which was specifically designed to rescue jews as a religion. if you are persecuted as a religion, you can be rescued as a religion. and in the middle east today, the sunnis are being killed by shias, the shias are being killed by sunnis, so you can focus on particular religions,

probably better to say any group that is discriminated against without using the word religion and i suspect they'll do that when they redraft this order as they really have to do. >> if they redraft it, that would be an area because as you say, there is a long history of persecution based religious asyl asylum. question is whether this is meant to do something else. some people were questioning that. you're busy today, thank you for making time. >> always a pleasure. thank you. >> awesome. up ahead, we have a look at the political reaction to president trump's foreign policy and exclusive interview with senator bob casey, power panel. and a special report on whether congress is normalizing trump's secretive approach to governing. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine.

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calling for tough action against north korea, the president has been widely discussed, a brief statement saying the u.s. was behind japan. his tone last month on north korea appeared more strident when he tweeted, north korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the u.s. it won't happen. trump warned that they were playing with fire. and he said on twitter he would not be as, quote, kind to them as president obama. incidents proving to be a challenge for the new administration, raising questions about what action would follow any tough talk. let's get right to it. i have perry bacon, nbc senior political reporter and steve clemens, editor in chief of the atlantic. good sunday evening to both of you. put this in context as has been widely discussed. if a politician, any politician is going to talk tough on the campaign trail, and dial it back in the white house, that is generally considered a welcome

development, hypocrisy aside. what is your view? >> strategic restraint and that kind of more control behavior that doesn't quickly kick into escalation is the right strategy in this case. i think that these challenges, if donald trump is not careful, become defining ones for him much like we saw mike flynn taunting iran for a while. maybe they want that to happen. the piece of the puzzle i'm been impressed by was it before that north korean missile went up and before the abe meeting, donald trump sent out an order saying that he had shifted on china. and that we were no longer on a collision course on china regarding one china policy and so that we wouldn't be stuck in a vice where simultaneous conflicts with china and north korea at same time. >> i don't want to be too simplistic. but according to the reporting, that was partly because china was playing hard to get. >> i think that's right. china would not deal with us. they're willing to negotiate on just about everything except

their core sovereignty. and they saw leader, the president of taiwan, and messing with the one china policy as something they would go to war over. regardless of the bluster, i think the fact that xi jinping and donald trump were willing to come to terms on that, before north korea pricked donald trump with this short range missile test. it is very important because it means that no matter what reaction we eventually have in north korea, we stand a better chance of having china to some degree with us in part. they won't be fully with us. they don't see north korea as the same level of strategic threat, but they're just as frustrated in many ways with north korea's behavior. if they have a bigger problem with us, they may begin to fuel north korea. and that is a big problem. >> and that's the logical part. for the politics, i turn to you, the illogical part. anyone who watched top chef knows you have to mix really

random ingredients. and one of the illogical but politically effective things donald trump did in the republican primary was be super tough and bellicose on certain things that we associate with being a neocon and also talk about how he was against the iraq war and didn't want to pay for things abroad, he cooked up everything one might want even if we're now seeing it is not all real in governing. how are republicans taking this in washington? >> in terms of the iran policy in north korea, missile tests and the way he's handled them, he handled them in a way that barack obama would, his policy results, new sanctions on iran, have been not like the rhetoric of the campaign. republicans liked the comments he's made. you have seen other issues, the republicans are trying to rein him in. after that phone call came out where he had really criticized the australian ambassador, and had this unusually aggressive phone call, john mccain called the -- trump criticized the australian president. john mccain called the australian ambassador to the

united states and said, we're still your ally, we still respect you, ignore the president. i'm not sure how useful that is in the long-term. you see this example. second example on russia, you heard marco rubio will say, if trump tries to lift the sanctions, we in congress will make sure that they stay in place. sanctions that came after the election. i think you're seeing trump move to the more traditional views on issues. >> steve, take a listen to steven miller today. >> last night was a show of strength saying we stand with our ally, having the two men appear on camera, worldwide, to all of planet earth, was a statement that will be understood very well by north korea. >> what do you make of the way they were explaining this, steve? >> i think, you know, i agree with perry, it is what barack obama would have done, but i tweeted earlier today that i was -- i found myself a bit

surprised that the abe/trump meeting went as well as it did. nearly every other ally has had some problem, even with theresa may of the united kingdom. she had to say that donald trump really supported nato. this was a robust, full throated support of japan in a way that was very, very die could the muss wi dichotomus of what we have seen during the campaign. whether steven miller gets it and this is convincing to the rest of the world, i don't know. but i think that with regards to japan, it was important with -- with regards to the region, more stabilizing than not. but to think there isn't significant doubt in the minds of every ally in the world about the solvency of the american alliance would also be a mistake. i think a lot of allies don't trust the united states to be with them in their tough times. i think japan is a bit more reassured. >> steve and perry, thank you for joining me. president trump's

immigration policy continues to spark street protests and backlash. including new developments like ice raids that were in six different states that led to the arrests of hundreds. protests in mexico today. and refugee welcome protests in new york city. where is it all headed? we have a big political panel to break it down. that's next. pain used to shut me down during pick-up games.

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this is the people's court. this is the plaintiff, the president of the united states. he claims that some phony judges are being very mean to him. he's asking for broad unchecked power. >> i signed a tremendous travel ban. i didn't read it, but i signed it. people took pictures of me holding up the paper, very official. these judges have been very disrespectful. i'm right. they're wrong. i want the ruling reinstated. also i want $725. >> the reality show meets the people's court and gets the "snl" treatment as alec baldwin reprised his famous impression for his 17th turn as an "snl" host.

congratulations. the real white house signaling it could issue this revised travel ban as soon as tomorrow. the policy on hold in the courts, protesters hammering away. while many of the impacted immigrants are from muslim majority countries, today in new york, an interfaith effort against the ban. part of what organizers were calling a national day of jewish action for refugees. immigration also hot in mexico city. demonstrators demanding the mexican government defend its citizens on both sides of the border. with me to look at both immigration battles, political analyst joan walsh, christine greer, and msnbc contributor maria theresa kumar. i'll start on the policy and then deep into the politics. what do you think is the next step here when you see this much tension on immigration, but, of course, strong views on the right about president trump holding on? >> i don't think folks are surprised that people are coming out into the street.

and protesting. what we're finding behind closed doors are independent republican -- if you call it that, more moderate republicans surprised at how targeted the president is being, and how fearful local communities are. they, themselves are surprised that we're seeing so much advocate -- advocacy on the other side and i apologize, but my ear piece is echng so -- >> i had that happen and it is super distracting. so, you know, i hear you. i feel you. christina, let me bring yo in and put up on the screen what donald trump is saying about all this. he had has a tweet up pointing to some of the media reports and saying, the crackdown on illegal criminals is the keeping of my campaign promise, gang members, drug dealers and others are being removed. okay. that may be the case. but that's not what ice is saying now in terms of whether his administration is on the same page. i'll give you the ice view.

sometimes we have two views of a story from differing parts of the aisle this is the same government here. the focus on these surges no different than the routine target arrest carried out by ice's fugitive operation team. they're saying no different from the previous administration which did a lot of deportations. there isn't an agreement on what is happening. >> i think this is a widespread chaotic administration right now. so the frustration that i think a lot of citizens feel is that, you know, barack obama did deport quite a few people. we cannot, you know, excuse that fact. donald trump doesn't really know what is going on within his own presidency. it is only been three weeks, even though for many people it felt like three and a half years. the systematic issue is that these others that he keeps talking about, these are law abiding, undocumented, individuals who have paid taxes, contributed to society, they're

mothers, they are individuals that actually are making this country much better and so hopefully what we'll see is not just democrats putting pressure on their elected officials to do something, but also republicans speaking up and putting pressure on their elected officials in congress to stand up to this particular president. we have not seen the republican party actually have a backbone when it comes to this president and if we don't have republicans who are in the majority of both the house and the senate, we're really dangerous waters. they have to limit here. >> the backbone question, not only on policy, but on the facts. this came up on a different top make really is must see viewing here. steefrn miller making the rounds, talking about, again, false allegations of voter fraud. the whole panel will take a listen. >> i can tell you, this issue of busing voters into new hampshire is widely known by anyone working new hampshire politics, it is very real, very serious. >> you can't make a hold on a second, you claimed again that

there was illegal voting in new hampshire, people bust in from the state of massachusetts. do you have any evidence -- >> anybody, george, go to new hampshire, thauk to anybody who worked in politics there for a long time, everybody is aware of the problem in new hampshire, with respect to -- >> i'm asking you if the white house scene -- i'm asking you as the white house senior policy adviser, the president made a statement saying he was the victim of voter fraud, people -- >> the president was. >> do you have any evidence? >> if this is an issue that interests you, we can talk about it more in the future and we now have governance begin to get stood up, department of justice and more officials. issue of voter fraud, something we're looking at seriously and very hard. >> christina? >> this is egregious. we have a child lying to the media and i think it is up to the media to make sure that they limit these conversations. right. why is the media responding to donald trump's tweets as though they're real communication? we need to demand this president stands up in front of the american people and presents a

cogent, long-term argument and vision for this country. 140 characters is not enough. he cannot just make up facts and tweets and then actually have people make the rounds with the weekend shows to try to justify the figments of his imagination. there was no voter fraud. if anything in this country, we need more people to vote. this is not a case where people are being bused in. and now republican members of congress say that, oh, well the protesters were us abobused in l at me about the aca this is wholly made up and not up to the media, but elected -- other electeds to call their colleagues out. we do not have an issue of voter fraud. we do not have people going town by town voting in multiple elections. >> we fact checked this. there is not evidence of this kind of voter fraud. the white house keeps bringing it up. there is also politically a weird thing here where steven miller, looking at the transcript says, look, if this is an issue that interests you, we can talk about it more. it is like we're talking about

it right now. last week, donald trump lost to federal court hearing and said, well, i'll see you in court. you have been seen. >> it is going to go on. it is on us to fact check. i think even maybe turn away some of these spokespeople and policy advisers who consistently lie. to their credit, tonight, we had the republican former attorney general of new hampshire and top gop party leaders in new hampshire saying this is not true. therebuses. so people in that state are saying there is no evidence, even on the republican side. we need to see more of that from republicans in congress. >> you wanted to get in? >> i think the fact that mitch mcconnell said he was not going to weigh in and do any sort of investigation or oversight on this fraud allegation speaks volumes, but i want to pose -- i know you and i had this conversation before, but what the donald trump administration is trying to do is create a

sense of insecurity across our institutions. whether it is this idea of the sanctity of voting, whether we're talking about the media, whether it is undermining our federal judges and we have to make sure that we do not fall into those traps where we become callous, we believe it is business as usual and we let him get away with it. >> i agree 1,000%. as someone who teaches intro to politics, the foundation of our american democracy, we have to believe in it. so we can behave in a particular way. we have to believe in separation of powers, so we can hold our members of congress accountable, to how they'll put a check on the presidency. we also have to believe that we have a fair and relatively independent judiciary that will check the president when need be. this is the triangle, the media makes this square. >> we need to be a strong square. a strong square. >> this is the time where people have asked themselves, what

would i do in the civil rights movement or what would i do when hitler's terrorizing europe? this is the time. right. no time like the present. we have a president who is literally trying to undermine every single value of american democracy. and we're still waiting to see his taxes. we're waiting to hear from -- >> i think a step further. the fact that right now there are families that are physically being disrupted and torn apart in the last week because of the silent immigration raids that are happening, they're coming into people's homes in the early evening or early morning when people are disoriented. they are real cases that -- because they're happening, though, under the radar, most folks don't realize it is disrupting. 16 million american families are a mixed status households. we're talking about a presidency that zmdoes not care about keepg families together and giving people blanket authority in the ice agency to go after those.

that's basically what is happening is that, yes, it may not be his exact executive order, but by him voicing it, he has parts of the agency of ice which has been started to deteriorate under the obama administration who inherited it from bush, people are like renegades. the wild west. that's what we're seeing now. it may not be the letter of the law, but it is giving a way to ice to say do as you will. >> thank you for joining us. we'll have you back for a different top niic in a few minutes. stay with us. bob casey will be here live to give his take on how the president is responding to the foreign policy tests and his views on the cabinet. that's next. i love how usaa gives me the peace of mind and the security just like the marines did. at one point, i did change to a different company with car insurance, and i was not happy with the customer service. we have switched back over and we feel like we're back home now. the process through usaa is so effortless, that you feel like you're a part of the family.

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thank you very much, mr. prime minister. i just want everybody to understand and fully know that the united states of america

stands behind japan, its great ally, 100%. thank you. >> there it was. president trump's brief and notable response. i want to get to our sunday exclusive interview with senator bob casey, from pennsylvania. thanks for joining us. >> good to be with you, thank you. >> you look at that response. there are some cheering it for what is not there. others pointing out that there is a lot we just don't know. your view about where we go from here with north korea? >> i think we should do three things. the president spoke to t i was hoping fe ining for a condemnat. first step is to condemn it. i'm sure the administration will be more specific about that. second, that condemnation may have to be amplified by way of a u.n. security council resolution, we could lead that. i think thirdly, obviously the enforcement of existing sanctions we had legislation pass in 2016, which was a good

set of sanctions, but there may be some tightening up of those, maybe additional sanctions. for example, a -- north korea is allowed to export coal. and the question is whether or not something like that should be a tightening up. finally, i think that we have to consider the best ways to put it to maximum amount of pressure or appropriate in china because of 80%, 90% of north korea's trade is with china. they have some significant leverage. i hope the administration would get to those steps. >> what you're alluding to in part is the limited u.s. role here to use economic sanctions. carrot or stick, because it is not a big part of the game. reading up on this, i was looking at the congressional research service, nonpartisan review of the policy over several administrations, they point out that up until 2000, the u.s. plunged down over a billion dollars in carrots, then pulled back, right, under bush, sticks.

the prevailing view is that nothing has worked very well. >> and that's -- that, i think, points to the limited leverage we sometimes have. but i do think that with the international community providing a broader array of points of pressure and secondly taking a little bit where we can tighten up the existing sanctions. but one of the reasons why there might be some confusion or some ambiguity here is the president, i think, sends a mixed signal with regard to china and the more he can be clear about that, i think the better when you have an event like this. >> i want to talk about your relationship with the new president. you're from pennsylvania. a state he won. you are generally considered if i may say so mild mannered, classic senator. you're not a fire breather, you're not considered radical in your politics. you could disagree if you want. but we're going to put up on the screen, you've been voting down a bunch of the nominees, price, sessions, tillerson, pompeo.

why? >> i think basically what i try to do is take them each one at a time. i don't think anyone in either party has seen a longer list of cabinet nominees that either have competence problems, that was the case with betsy devos, in addition to definitive or perceived conflicts of interest. and then extremist to basic policy i don't think we have seen in recent american history. >> you think this is the most unqualified cabinet in american history? >> it certainly is among the most. and i think i can't speak for all of american history. i'm not under that ph.d. but certainly in recent history, but here is one of the real concerns i have, tom price, dr. price, member of the house of representatives, just got confirmed despite significant opposition. he has led the fight in the house of representatives for policies that are in direct contradiction to what candidate

trump said on the campaign trail. he said will not touched me carrick ed medicare, medicaid and social security. what i would argue is the destruction of medicaid, which affects not just urban areas, but rural pennsylvania, a lot of parts of our country. and now social security, this continual obsession with private accounts and privatizing social security. they're three examples of where he has led the fight on policies that are directly contradicting what the president said as a candidate. >> those are some of your big no votes, big debate about the supreme court, george gorsuch is widely respected. only reversed one time by the supreme court. a lot of people think he is a good judge. you're meeting with him this week, i'm told. what do you want to see from him and given the treatment of merit

garland, a widely respected judge what do you think they should do here? >> we're not doing what republicans did, in essence to reject merrick garland before he was nominated or anyone was nominated. we're giving this judge a hearing. and i'm sure he'll likely get a vote. i think that vote should definitively be a 60 vote threshold. if you serve on what i would argue is most important court in the world, ought to be able to line up 60 votes in the senate. >> you think democrats have to be prepared to filibuster. >> it means we have to insist on 60 votes and make sure that he gets as thorough a vetting as possible. >> that's achieved through a filibuster? >> in essence, it might be. but what republicans have wanted to do on cabinet nominations is speed things up. i think on this supreme court nomination we'll be able to give him a thorough vetting and make a determination. what i'll ask him about is his decisions in specific cases,

especially those that involve workers, individuals with disabilities, issues like that, i'm going to ask him more about his judicial philosophy and then make a decision. but i think in this case, we're not simply exampling one judge who happens to be the nominee for the supreme court. i think also factoring into my decision the court itself. this is a very corporate court. that's a dramatic understatement. number one. number two, this is the deciding vote on many cases. that's another substantial consideration. and thirdly, and i'll end with this, the way he arrived at the nomination was because there was a political deal during the campaign. far right organizations gave donald trump a license, that's the list for the supreme court, correct? and i think that political deal is substantial. >> we'll be watching it, senator bob casey, thank you for joining us for the sunday interview. great to have you. up next, day bug the new segment

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nothing stops us from doing right by our customers. ally. do it right. told you not to swat 'em. welcome to the first edition of a brand-new segment normal or not. probing stories that may have gone under the radar during the week. president trump defending his travel ban in court and ruling he may issue the new ruling as of monday. you might remember top homeland security officials briefed at the last moment, the legal okay on the last possible day and congressional players saying they were in the dark, like house judiciary committee chairman bob goodlat who did not get consulted by the administration. not all were out of the loop.

trump aides huddled with some staff were forced to sign gag orders so they would be contractually barred from talking about it. the staffers signed nondisclosure agreements according to two sources familiar with the matter. so, normal or not? congressional staff secretly working with the president, hiding it from republican leadership, signing gag orders so they can't discuss it. here are the facts. it is extremely rare for administration officials to circumvent republican leadership and work directly with congressional committee aides according to politico and this issue isn't really partisan. look at senator john mccain saying i've never heard of it in my lifetime, but there lots of things happening i've never heard of before. former republican house aide and patrick eddington who says this is sandbagging the constitution and people you work for and a breach of the separation of powers. that point about separation of powers comes from the

constitution. the founders set up one center of power at the white house, another in congress and those two can work together, also supposed to check each other which is why we hear about checks and balances. if a president can just co-opt the staff of another branch, preventing taxpayers and voters from knowing about it, that check is at risk. let's be clear in business, these kind of gag orders are pretty normal. you might have signed one with your employer and not know it. the idea is a private company can keep its business private. but the government is the opposite. its work is the public business and it is supposed to be public unless there is an intelligence or security reason. which brings us to a final part of the story that is odd. a gag order designed to censor free speech about the government, like how this travel ban was written, is itself probably illegal. experts say judges would probably throw that kind of thing out. we talked to legal experts here at nbc news about trump's attempt to get similar orders for campaign volunteers who said it was overkill and probably not

enforceable by the courts. let's be clear, this issue may never actually be tested in court but our verdict is that nothing about these secret contracts was normal. do you have a story or question for normal or not? e-mail me at ari at msnbc.com and we may tackle your question next sunday at 6:00 p.m. we have to fit in a quick break. more next hour including bill richardson on immigration and north korea, plus, a democratic congressman will be here live to explain how there is one way that they could legally get donald trump's tax returns before the u.s. house. all that next hour on msnbc.

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that? >> they did not give me anything to say. >> you cannot -- you cannot say -- >> asked and ansered, chuck. >> the president has confidence in his national security adviser. >> it is not for me to tell you what is in the president's mind. >> no defense. declining to really back up national security adviser mike flynn who is under fire about his contact with the russians before the inauguration. also, tonight, taxing trump. the issue donald trump wants to go away but a democratic congressman is here live to explain a new legal way to force trump to cough up his tax returns. and he's back. >> spicy is going to explain it so you dumb babies can understand it. so i guess i can't use my big words. >> melissa mccarthy returning as sean spicer with alec baldwin bringing the best donald trump and kate mckinnon unveiling elizabeth warren. we had a trifecta of funny on "snl." we'll explain how the politics are interacting. plus, this