at netanyahu and says he's going to be our prime minister far good time. >> martin fletcher. we have a lot to get there, and we did. appreciate it, does it for this hour. i'm steve kornacki here in new york at mtp daily, starts right now. if it's wednesday, new fallout from flynn's firing. tonight, questions of collusion and credibility. two reports that trump officials had contact with russia during the presidential campaign. >> any trump person who collaborated with a russia, with the russians if they did, they should be punished. >> plus the president blames the media for his firing of national security advisor mike flynn. >> people are trying to cover up for a terrible loss that the democrats had under hillary clinton. i think it's very, very unfair what's happened to general flynn. >> and did president trump just change decades of u.s. support for a two-state solution in the

middle east? >> i'm looking at two-state, and one-state, and i like the one that both parties like. >> this is mtp daily, and it starts right now. good evening, i'm katie tur in new york. welcome to mtp daily. the firing of national security advisor michael flynn has reignited serious questions about the kremlin's ties to the trump administration, the storms, the flynn fallout, a long standing fbi probe and calls for more investigations by congress have led to an extraordinary array of unanswered questions about white house conflicts, chaos, allegation of collusion, and questions of credibility and competence. today at the white house,

president trump fired back, he aggressively defended general flynn less than 48 hours after firing him from misleading the vice president about his conversations with russia. president trump responded to the escalating fallout first by attacking the press, then by alleging a political conspiracy inside his administration. >> general flynn is a wonderful man, i think he's been treated very, very unfairly by the media. as i call it the fake media in many cases. people are trying to cover up for a terrible loss that the democrats had under hillary clinton. i think it's very, very unfair what's happened to general flynn, the way he was treated, and the documents and papers that were illegally, i stress that, illegally leaked. very, very unfair. >> the president earlier in the day blasted intelligence leaks published by the "new york times" after it ran this

potentially explosive report citing current and former u.s. officials that trump aids and informal advisors were in repeated contact with senior russian intelligence officials during the campaign. amid russia's efforts to hack the election process. nbc news has not confirmed that story and it should be noted that the "new york times" says officials have so far found no evidence of collusion between trump's team and russia. for our part, a senior u.s. official tells nbc news that investigators have determined that some trump campaign aids and trumpl business associates were in contact with russians. but current and former u.s. officials say they know of nothing to indicate contact between trump associates and russian intelligence. but at the very least, this story raises new questions about denials made by the president, the vice president, and his top aids on this question. >> was there any contact in any way between trump or his associates and the kremlin or

cutouts they have? >> all the contact by the trump campaign and associates was with the american people. >> can you still say definitively that nobody on the trump campaign, not even general flynn, had any contact with the russians before the election? >> there's nothing that would conclude me that anything different has changed with respect to that time period. >> the that members of staff were in contact with russian officials during the campaign. on capitol hill, we've seen several top republicans appear to grow increasingly uneasy with the situation facing the white house. >> now that this issue has occurred, i think coming before us and testifying if that can be done, will be a very appropriate thing for us to have happen. >> if there were trump officials campaign officials collaborating with the russians, that is a big-time, bad move on their part and i want to punish russia for interfering in our campaign even more aggressively than i do today and any trump person who

collaborated with the russians, if they did, they should be punished. >> the latest information in the media is -- requires questions to be answered. >> do you think there's any evidence of coordination between the trump campaign and -- >> it's too early. it's too early, but it raises serious questions. >> joining me now, senator chris kouns, democrat of delaware. thank you senator for joining me. first question, mitch mcconnell says he doesn't want an independent investigation into this, the democrats do. so how far should the democrat goes in order to force this issue? >> well katie, initially we need to rely on the senate intelligence committee which is already under way in conducting an open investigation that will be classified into materials and information that really shouldn't be reviewed in an open setting. i am optimistic that the general community will subpoena and secure a lot of e-mails and

documents they need to review. i also think two committees on which i serve, foreign relations and judiciary should be holding public hearings. into what this means for our next election, for our relations with our vital allies in europe who also face russian aggression against their elections in germany, france, and elsewhere and on judiciary into what this means and cyber crime and for russia's interference in our election. then we should proceed to an independent commission and an independent investigation outside of congress. >> well, if that does happen, i'm not saying it's going to because we don't know yet, if that does happen as the minority party, what can you do to force the issue, in a word, could you go nuclear on this? >> katie, you've already heard a number of republican senators expressing concern, they were quoted just a few minutes ago.

if there was collusion between the trump campaign and russian intelligence, that's an issue of national security. that's an issue of a direct assault on our democracy, and if a number of republicans and democrats work together, we can confront this important challenge to our democracy. >> do that you believe you're going to get the republicans support you need to though to have a full investigation, one that gets to the bottom of all these issues? and also one that the american public is going to be privied too, one where the american public knows you were able to fully investigate it and fully become confident that there were not serious breaches here? >> well katie, that's the key issue, will the american public know? you could be confident that i and many of my colleagues will fiercely follow this wherever it goes. and if we are blocked in our intention to proceed with these investigations, then we'll be calling on the american public to reach out to their republican senators and insist that they support our moving forward with

an independent commission. we can't create an independent commission or a select committee without legislation. and that legislation would have to come through a majority of republican congress. so at some point, republicans also have to stand up and say, this is an issue, vital to our national security. and join with democrats here in the senate to make sure that we're doing our constitutional duty of effective oversight. >> senator, it seems right now that all the democrats can do is talk loudly about this. if it does come to the point where the republicans are not going to get on board with an investigation that does lead to the full answer, are the democrats willing to do things like block neil gorsuch's vote or -- excuse me, the debt limit expiring next month, could you threaten to default on it? essentially hold it up in order to get the republicans to take this more seriously if it comes to the point where they are not? >> yes, katie, there's a range of things that we could do. but i don't think we should get

there yet. we should try to proceed in the near term in a deliberate and bipartisan manner. >> the intelligence committee is making progress. i am optimistic with what i've heard from chairman corker of foreign relations, senator graham who chairs one of the subcommittees of judiciary on which i serve, they could also investigate this. let's see if we're able to make progress, and if not, you just laid off a number of leverage points that we might be able to use to get the attention of the white house and of republicans in the senate. >> so there are ones who could potentially use if you need to. >> yes. it is troubling that today president trump is trying to change the subject and somehow blame the media for the fact that he had to fire his national security advisor for lying to the vice president. the reality here is that russia did interfere with our election and we need to get to the bottom of whether or not the trump campaign colluded with russian intelligence. >> do you believe this is a national security crisis. >> yes. i think this is an important issue of national security, it affects not just our last

election, but our next election. and it could affect our allies throughout the world. so i do think that it's important for all of us in the best interest of our country to move forward deliberately and thoughtfully in a bipartisan way and try to minimize the prospects for genuine constitutional crisis as we investigate this issue. >> thank you senator kouns. i'm joined now by michael mcfall, former u.s. ambassador to russia and nbc contributor. ambassador, thank you for joining me, number one, there's a lot of questions right now swirling about president trump and his ties to russia. some people are saying this is nonsense, this is conspiracy theories. this is an attempt at a political assassination if you will against the president. what is your -- what right now are the biggest questions for you? >> well it's not a conspiracy theory. we have overwhelming evidence that the russians intervened in

our election to tip the scales for one candidate. we know that, that's been documented, there's no debate about that. what's new over the last 24 hours is that we now know that trump officials in the campaign had conversations with russian intelligence officers. the same russian intelligence that intervened in our election also had conversations with those officials. what we don't know, of course, as you were just talking about, we don't know the content of those conversations, we don't know if there was collusion, if there was coordination, and that's what we need to know. that is the ultimate thing we need to know and that needs to be investigated. >> just to be fair, that is "new york times" reporting, that's nothing that nbc news has been able to independently verify. we did however speak to paul manafort whose donald trump's former campaign chairman, and he gave us this statement saying, i had no contact knowingly with russian intelligence officials. i don't think it's possible i

could have inadvertently had discussion with russian officials. it's not like they wear badges. the story is not true. what does he mean when he says it's not like they wear badges? >> well, it's a fair point. and i think mr. manafort should be given the benefit of the doubt. and that is to say, when you're walking the streets ofkey yef, he had a major client there, and you bump into somebody at the breakfast table who works for the russian government, they're not going to tell you that they work for the fsb or the svr. they post the that came after. you don't knee, he doesn't know. i think that's what he's claim, but we should know that. we can know that. we can know that through investigation. we can know that through our intelligence community. that's most certainly what was eluded to in the "new york times" reporting, and with a more comprehensive expansive

investigation, we can uncover some of these anonymous sources and the names that were not known. i know a lot of kgb agents for instance, because of my time in the government. and for those names were exposed in an investigation, we might be able to connect the dots and then really understand whether there was collusion or not. and i would think mr. manafort would want that investigation, if indeed what he said to you is true. let's get it documented so we can move on. >> let's get back to something more concrete. that's general flynn. the conversation he had during the transition. in your diplomatic experience, how likely is it that he was freelancing during that phone call where they -- where he discussed sanctions at length with the russian ambassador? >> well first of all, general flynn of all people should have realized that the high likelihood of that conversation being recorded. and so he should have known that somebody else was going to know about it.

and most certainly when his president -- when he was in national security advisor, when president trump sat down to call president putin, general flynn had to have known that ambassador would have briefed president putin about the content of their conversation. with respect to what he did, you know, i can't speak for this transition or this administration, but i did work in the obama transition and the obama administration, i can't imagine anybody making policy on their own of such a magnitude, lifting sanctions on russia, that's a pretty big policy change. unlikely that that would be just made on the fly by one individual. >> thank you ambassador mcfaul. now let's go to tonight's panel nick, political reporter for the "new york times" and msnbc contributor. >> elise jordan, msnbc news political analysis and former adviser to senator rand paul and neil smith, guys, another busy

day. >> another day. >> another busy day. donald trump got on, took the podium today was asked at least in a round about way about general flynn. and he gave another answer which seems to muddy the water even more. it's the media's fault for general flynn getting fired. >> correct. you can't have it both ways. he's saying it's fake news, but real leaks apparently because they're criminal leaks. they're real leaks, it's not fake fuse, and if it's fake, how come he fired flynn for the whole thing in the first place? he can't do both. >> democrats are making a lot of noise, clearly, elise. they have support among republicans. they've got mccain, they've got roy blunt, senator lindsey graham as well getting loud about that this, if they can't get an independent investigation, do they have the wherewithal and the appetite to go nuclear? to, you know, stop the neil gorsuch nomination? >> i think that's unlikely, but i think so much is going to

depend on what's actually in the transcripts of the call with general flynn and the russian ambassador. i think that if it is more overt in how he's speaking about the sanctions and what actually happened and what was actually said, that could really rally more republicans to come together and have some kind of extended investigation. >> the republicans have always been very good at getting in line when they want to stop something. they were successful at it during the obama years. they were successful at wielding their leverage even as the minority. why would the democrats not have the appetite to do that? >> i can't think of a reason. considering the fact that their voters are coming out, millions of them protesting on the first weekend after the inauguration, continuing to make noise and indicate that they have the appetite for this fight. the democratic people, you know, congress people need to really understand that they are serving a people that are voting for them. they're not serving the people who voted for trump.

they need to understand that their voters are the ones to be scared of, not trump voters. >> they are serving the american people. it's not like i'm going to serve my voters and you're going to serve yours, that's what brings congress to a standstill. that's where we've been now for the last eight years, so if congress stays another standstill for four years, who benefits from that? >> probably democrats actually. in the past eight years are any indication. i will say there's an important distinction here, there's a fourth player in the room besides the house and the senate and the white house, which is the intelligence community. there was, obviously a intelligence officers who want the information out, who want people to know about it the, if there's no investigation, if there's a stone walling, there's going to be a set of actors there who are going to push this stuff out to the american people, out to people like you, reporters. >> do they have the intelligence right now? or is this, is this slow leak trying to get -- trying to smoke out more information? how much there is there that the

point? >> that's what i wonder about. and you know you look at the dossier that buzzfeed published, and it was a speck la toir story for so long until readers were able to actually assess what was in the document for itself. and the issue kind of died away. it didn't have as much impact because people knew what was there and kind of thought, oh, well there's not much there there. and so i wonder what's actually in the transcripts, what is the hard evidence that they have? and i do think that it's -- it needs to move beyond just speculation. >> well talking about general flynn for one, the intelligence community was out to get him before day one. they've been out to get him now for quite some time. they weren't happy during the campaign when he took the stage at the convention and said lock her up. he's been an unpopular character now for years. do the republicans -- does the administration have a point when it says hey listen, they came after -- they came after him. this was a political assassination? >> i think it's certainly dangerous when we talk about putting too much unfounded

intelligence and sourced intelligence into the public sphere. that said, people have a right to understand what's going on. and it's not as though he did not have these conversations with the russian ambassador, it's not as though he wasn't inappropriate in doing so. so the idea that he was somehow, you know, resigned or was fired because the media published these reports is insane. so i think that, you know, really the president needs to understand what accountability is and needs to start practicing it within his own administration before it has to be done. >> are the leaks or whistle blowers? >> depends on the end game. depends if they're legitimate, if they're accurate. if they've been characterized properly and reporters and investigators. whistle blower is someone whose leaks you like and leaker is someone leaks you hate. >> donald trump loved wikileaks, couldn't get enough, i love these wikileaks. talked about, you know, russia finding hillary clinton's e-mails and now this is illegal, now it's dangerous and now he's

upset. can you have it both ways? >> i don't think you can. but at the end of the day, these leaks exposed wrong doing. someone was doing general flynn something he shouldn't have been doing. and that's what really matters. and so i do think that some principle civil servants decided that the american public deserved to know they were being lied to. >> stay with us. coming up, state of confusion. did president trump discard decades of american support for a two-state solution in the middle east? that's next. with every early morning... every late night... and moment away... with every click...call...punch... and paycheck... you've earned your medicare. it was a deal that was made long ago, and aarp believes it should be honored. thankfully, president trump does too. "i am going to protect and save your social security and your medicare. you made a deal a long time ago." now, it's congress' turn. tell them to protect medicare. dearthere's no other way to say this.

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welcome back, president trump is in need of a new cabinet nominee today. andy puzdzdepuzder, withdraw hi from consideration this afternoon. after a number of negative headlines. and a reported lack of support for multiple senate republicans. puzder tweeted, i am withdrawing my nomination for secretary of labor. i'm honored to have been considered and i'm grateful to all who have supported me.

nbc news reports puzder didn't have the votes because of policy issues, although he also had some potential baggage related to his personal life and business ties. no word yet from the white house on a timeline for a new nominee. and a new hiccup for another trump nominee, senator john mccain just announced he will vote against president trump's nominee for omb director. representative nick mul vany who will be getting a final vote in the senate tomorrow morning. mccain says the opposition is due to the desire to cut defense spending. mccain will likely not sink the nomination, but if democrats stand united against him and if one more republican defects, vice president pence would need to once again break a tie. we'll be back in one minute with a potentially historic moment today at the white house.

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decades of bipartisan diplomatic precedent on middle east peace. >> so i am looking at two-state and one-state, and i like the one that both parties like. i'm very happy with the one that both parties like. i could live with either one. i thought far while the two state looked like it may be the easier of the two, but honestly, if bb and if the palestinians -- israel and the palestinians are happy, i'm happy with the one they like the best. >> the president sounded confident that he could produce an agreement that has eluded his predecessors. calling prime minister netanyahu a smart man and a great negotiator. in an unusual sequence of events, the president and prime minister spoke just 15 minutes after his arrival. rather than after the bilateral meeting which could explain why they weren't exactly on the same page. >> as far as settlements, i'd like to see you hold back on

settlements for a little bit doesn't sound too optimistic. good negotiator. >> that's the art of the deal. the great opportunity for peace comes from a regional approach from involving our newfound partners. >> i didn't know you were going to mention that, but now that you did, i think it's terrific. >> to dissect this, i'm joined by richard haas who is currently the president on the council of foreign relations and former adviser to colon powell. he also has a book out, a world in disarray. congratulations on the book. >> thank you, katie. >> let's talk about this two-state solution. that's been the protocol, the policy now for decades, going back decades of a number of presidents. what's going to mean for donald trump to be apathetic about it today? what alarm bells are being rung across the middle east?

>> well, couple things. one is, along with a lot of other people, we've looked at all the possibilities, and whatever the flaws are of a two-state solution, it's the least bad or arguably best approach that's out there. two, it's the only approach i know that helps israel stay jewish, stay democratic, stay secure, and stay prosperous, and thirdly the idea that we would unilaterally suggest we're open to other ideas, reinforces the sense that the administration is willing to orthodoxy of every sort and every part of the world, and that's dangerous because american predictability and reliability and steadfastness are really important attributes. you don't want to ge up lightly. >> what about those who say a two-state solution just hasn't worked? no one's ever got therein. we keep having middle east peace talks that don't actually come to fruition. we need to try something else. >> well, they're right. we've had these talks and they haven't come to fruition. there's been degrees of

progress. obviously you had other things in the middle east that worked out. and right now, i've got to tell you katie the situation is about as far from poised for success as you can get. the palestinians are clearly divided between -- hamas and gaza and the people who run the west bank. this israeli government is not a government for peace talks. it would fall apart that the slighters sign that compromises were going to have to be made. i'm not going to tell you the two-state solution is a good idea. there are things that can easily be done in the middle east between israelis and palestinians. and it's not clear how jet setting the idea helps you accomplish certain things you might or avoid things you want to avoid. >> donald trump also campaigned on this idea of moving the american embassy from tele aviv to jerusalem, today he sounded a little different. let's play that sound byte. >> afrs the embassy moving to jerusalem, i'd love to see that happen, we're looking at it

very, very strongly. we're looking at it with great care, great care, believe me. we'll see what happens. >> we'll see what happens. is he just doing what so many past presidents have done before, which is promise something, look at the reality and say i don't know if we can do this? >> well, i sure hope so. this would be a move with virtually no upside. tremendous possible downside. right now the israeli-palestinian issue is not at center of the mayhem, the instability, the disarray or worst in the middle east. but what worries me, if we were to move this, it would spark protests, it could have violence in jerusalem. and violence in jerusalem is the sort of thing that could go viral in the region and indeed the world very, very quickly. it simply isn't worth it. it's a symbolic action, we should focus on substance. >> there were really odd moments today, and i think that partially is because they had the press conference before they were able to sit down and get on the same page.

there was a side where donald trump looked and said, i want you to hold off on the settlements. how unusual is to have two foreign leaders stand next to each other and talk about what they are going to talk about? >> unusual doesn't begin to capture it. it was bizarre and the exchange there was -- look, the good news is that the israeli and american president, israeli prime minister and the american president seem to have a good relationship, at least a comfortable with each other. this is a relationship that seriously needs to be repaired. given all that's going on in the middle east, it's important that the united states and israel on the same page. there could be a crisis in jordan, something worse in syria, saudi arabia, who knows, so they've got to be comfortable. i thought it was good the president said that, you know, we do not ever want to see iran with a nuclear weapon. but obviously the two governments have a ways to go on what we used to call the peace process which again is about as far from being right, about as

far as being position the for progress as you can imagine. >> the optics couldn't have been more different with president obama and benjamin netanyahu. it almost felt like bb may have gotten the memo that said if you compliment donald trump, he's more likely to be amen to believe your ideas. he was pretty climate ri, am i wrong? >> absolutely. it's interesting because barack obama essentially started the opposite way. there was a new sheriff in town, he was much tougher on settlements and things never recovered from that point. this is starting off well. the question is whether you can essentially follow it through and add real substance to the happy talk. and, you know, i certainly hope so because again, israel and the united states could be confronted. and likely will at some point with some terrible crisis, either in jerusalem or jordan or somewhere else in what is the single most turbulent part of the world. >> thank you so much for joining me. >> thank you, katie. and we're going find out soon who will run the democratic

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so we provide personal financial advice for every retirement investor. welcome back. defense secretary jim mattis had some tough talk for fellow defense ministers during a closed door meeting at nato headquarters in brussels. he warned that the united states could, quote, moderate it's commitment to nato if other member nations did not step up contributions by the end of the year. mattis told the group no longer

can the american tax payer carry a disproportionate share of the defense of western values. only five of the nato's 28 member nations contribute at least 2% of their gross domestic product to the organization. mattis's commitments echoes sentiments president trump made on the campaign trail and last month in the times of london when he said countries weren't paying what they're supposed to be paying while discussing his concerns about nato. more mtp daily just ahead, but first, kate rogers has today's cnbc market wrap. >> thanks katie. stocks finish in record territory for a fifth straight trading session. dow goes 107 points, while the nasdaq gained 36 points. consumer price index rose a more than expected .6% in january. the largest monthly game in four years. retail sales beat analysts expectations and the latest batch of news, strengthening the case for the federal reserve to

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welcome back. as the democratic party tries to find it's identity and figure out how to harness the ground swell of frustration coming out of protests and town halls across the nation, they're also looking for a new leader. the democratic national committee is holding elections for a new chair. there are seven leading candidates and the top two contenders each have some prominent democrats behind them. congressman keith ellison in minnesota was endorsed by bernie sanders and elizabeth warren. chuck schumer and new york city mayor bill de blasio. while former u.s. secretary of labor, tom perez, has the support of former vice president joe biden, former attorney general, eric holder, and former agriculture secretary tom vilsack. perez sat down with chuck todd yesterday to talk about everything that's at stake in this race. take a look. >> what is wrong with the party

that you believe you're the man to fix it? >> well, i think the democratic party is suffering from a crisis of both relevance and confidence right now. and we need someone who can take the fight to donald trump, someone who can communicate our optimistic message of inclusion and opportunity. someone who can talk to every stake holder group in the party, and people who should be in the party and then someone who is a turn around specialist. because we need to change the culture of the democratic party and that's what i've done at the labor department. that's what i've done at the justice department before that, and when you can put your values into action every day, i think we can translate those democratic values of opportunity and inclusion into votes. >> what is the next dnc chair? a spokesperson for the party, the challenger to president trump or the mechanic for the party? >> well i think in a way, it's all of the above and then some. i think we need the chair to be the organizer in chief because i think we need to get back to

basics, we need to organize, organize, organize, and we need it to be a 12 month strategy. >> and be in the dnc. iaw that you were critical, you thought that the obama for america or organizing for action or organizing for america, whatever name they came up with. none of it was democratic national committee. and that was the problem. >> ended up hurting the party. we need to organize and develop that capacity with our state partners. >> i can get you to react to something? i can former democratic senator jim webb on meet the press last sunday, he had tough words for where he thinks the democratic party is today. i want you to listen and respond to it. >> the democrats have not done the kind of self-reflection that they should have starting in 2010. and i was talking about this in the ten elections. you've lost white working people. you've lost flyover land. and you saw in this election what happens when people get frustrated enough that they say, i'm not going to take this. it's got to be broken somehow,

in both parties. and i think that's what the trump message was that echoes so strongly in these flyover communities. >> what do you say to that? >> i think the democratic party does need to make house calls. we have to be the party in all 50 states and the territories and for democrats abroad. and i think we need to communicate that message of economic security. >> how concerned are you that this campaign is turning into a proxy fight between sort of the obama clinton wing which people say you represent, and the sanders wing that many people believe keith ellison represents. and that this is -- this is going to hurt both of you if this is how this breaks down? >> listen, every candidate -- we have a great relationship with each other, congressman ellison is a fantastic member of congress. and we've worked together. and when i talk to voting members and when i talk to, you know, folks out there, rank and file democrats, what they tell me is we need to focus on the future. we have the expo ten shl threats

of donald trump, we have every single day you have chaos and carnage coming out of this administration. whether it's a tax on the affordable care act. you see the latest with general flynn and his resigning is the tip of the iceberg. there needs to be a prosecution because i have a feeling that they're going to unfold -- the facts are going to unfold that he's aliar and he lied in many contexts. and so, what people want to focus on is, these threats. donald trump does not stand for our values. and what excites me the most, chuck, is that, yes, january 20th was an important day, but january 21st and beyond have been more important. millions of americans have come out and said donald trump, you did not win the popular vote. you do not stand for our values and we need to translate that moment into a movement. >> let me ask you this, is there enough -- let me go back to one of the criticisms that jim webb had in general for the democrats. not enough self-reflection. there's too many democrats who

believe outside forces cost the election. and not enough acknowledgment, and you're acknowledgment. do you think not enough democrats. >> here's the reality. i mean, did the comey letter have an impact? absolutely. did the russian hacking have an impact? absolutely. did mistakes it that were made not just in 2016, but forces involving the party that were many years in the making. our failure to be present in rural america, taking too many voters for granted, you can't show up at a church every fourth october and call that organi organizing. and so all of these forces are at work, and if i have the privilege of being the chair, we need to make sure that we are redefining our party so that we're not only electing the president, but we're building strong parties everywhere, so that we can elect folks from the

school board to the senate so that we can make sure that we have an organizing presence there. that we're taking advantage of this incredible momentum and saying to folks who are at the airports, like i was, you may not be a democrat, but we have the same values. and when we lead with our values, i think that translates into votes. >> tom perez, former labor secretary, candidate for the dnc chair, quite the campaign we're following here. >> thank you, chuck. >> another couple weeks to go anyway. thanks very much. >> take care. still ahead in the lid, searching for clarity in the fog of trump. stay tuned. ♪ ♪ ♪

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talk to your doctor and visit humira.com this is humira at work. welcome back. an update now on the future of president trump's immigration order. senior trump administration official tells nbc news that both the attorneys general, attorney general's office and the department of homeland security are working with the white house to draft a new immigration executive order. the original order is currently on hold after the ninth circuit court of appeals ruling last week. a number of states sign on to briefs arguing against the travel ban. and today the first state came out in favor of it. the texas attorney general filed a friend of the court brief, amicus brief today with the ninth circuit argue which is within the powers of the president to practice quote, discretion with respect to who can come into this country. no word yet on when the new order will be released, but it could come out as soon as this

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it's time for "the lid. q" "let's bring back our panel one more time. guys, foreign policy had a great term that it coined for what's been going on for the past month. the fog of trump. and they describe it like this. i think it's perfect. they describe. like this. put it up on the screen. "where do we direct our outrage when this is the record of three weeks, where do we begin, how do we remember what to be outraged about when there's a new scandal every six or hours or so? hard to remember what happened four scandals ago or what we called yesterday. that is the fog of trump." it's so perfect, you asked me to run down what's going on in the trump white house right now, i'll get to one and two things then my mind will go blank. >> yep. 25 days in. right? 25 days. >> we're not even a month in, actually. >> back in the election, there were all these countdown clocks

of how many days left in the campaign, now it's how many days into the administration. forget scandal, it's, you know, who's writing policy. who's in charge of the bureaucracy. >> there are staff positions that aren't filled, still, all across government. >> the state department is barely functioning. really you have -- >> they're not even holding -- >> they don't hold press briefings, they haven't filled the head of various departments. we don't have ambassadors. >> meeting with lavrov, russian foreign minister, from russia. >> exactly. from the kremlin. >> they're posting their own copies of their own executive orders. >> how about the readout of the putin phone call more quickly than the white house press office. >> we're spinning around about this, i can't believe this is happening, look at this scandal, that country. a lot of the country that hears it and sees it, there's so much of the country that does not. >> you're right. >> if there's a certain noise level, it you're up here all time, what's going to break through? >> well, here's what's going to break through. when there's a natural disaster. i mean, hurricane season is

coming up. this administration has already shown with the tornadoes in the southeast and tornadoes in louisiana that they are pretty slow to respond with regards to, you know, signing off on federal aid or sending help. you had governors and mayors writing the president begging for help in three states that voted for him so let's see what happens when hurricane season coming o up, other tornadoes, earthquakes or situations like the dam in california. or basic policy look, a tax reform bill is one of the hardest things you can do in washington ever. you have to cajole and coordinate with all these members. it's incredibly complex and difficult. i can't imagine this white house beginning that process in its current state. and, you know, with any other, you know, kind of big policy, obamacare repeal, the same deal. it's so hard to do on the best of days. >> yeah, but they look like they're doing something because donald trump is signing an executive order, he's showing those roundtables that he has every single day. there's a, what we call a pool spray, where the cameras come

in, you can see donald trump talking to leaders. he's going to go to melbourne, florida, this weekend to hold a rally where you're going to see on tv, i'm sure of it, thousands of people show up to cheer for him. it appears as if he is doing something. and is appearance enough? >> well, when you look tat a lo of the crisis has has happened under donald trump so far, it's all self-inflicted mostly. when something happens that's a real crisis such as north korea this last weekend and how he deals with, that's really going to be the test and what people are going to judge by. i think the self-inflicted chaos for now, trump supporters are okay with that to a point, then six months fas s passes by, nos done. nothing's changed for the better. they're going to start looking at the competency level of this white house and judging it a little more harshly. >> or are they going to blame somebody else? what we saw, when something went wrong, they blamed somebody else. >> when the water is more polluted because they weakened

the restriction of companies polluting water supplies or perhaps, you know, maybe when their schools aren't improving because they have betsy devos in charge of them. all these things do actually add up. people do want results from government. it's just that, you know, this white house has internalized the personality of his president. >> how much longer, this is a different story, how much longer can the democrats continue to keep the flynn controversy in the spotlight? >> i'm not sure democrats have to do anything to keep it in the spotlight, if the intelligence committee keeps leaking, if any of these investigations get under way, it keeps itself in the spotlight. >> he -- this administration, the campaign had a knack for changing the subject to some other controversy when they needed to. >> yeah, that was during the campaign. i think it's a very different -- >> it's been during the presidency, too. >> he is in charge. he has to govern. i think for a certain amount of time, people who are core trump supporters will see sort of chaos and outrage in washington and feel fine about it. when it comes time to actually delivering on his promises, if his chaos prevents him from doing that, it's bad for him. >> nick, elise, jamil, i love

talking to you guys. >> good to be here. >> i love doing it. we'll do it more often. come on the 2:00 p.m. show which i get to anchor every day or when i will in here. thank you, guys. after the break, joe biden's -- you heard that right, joe biden, his next political fightpy stay tuned.

in case you missed it, joe biden couldn't stay off the campaign trail for very long. the former vice president is back on the political stage, though it is a slightly smaller stage this time around.

if democrat stephanie hansen loses the upcoming special election, democrats will lose control of the state senate for the first time in 44 years. so democrats brought out the biggest name in delaware politics, biden. will it work? we'll find out more later this month. that's all for tonight. aisle ka i'm katy tur. chuck is back tomorrow. "for the record" with greta starts right now. "for the record tonight," brace yourself. president trump is hitting back. president trump blaming the fake media. illegal leaks that even the clinton campaign for the michael flynn controversy. we have the first reaction of clinton's top pollster and strategist, joel bennenson. plus, general flynn's security clearance suspended tonight and questions now swirling around him. will flynn testify before congress? and what will he say about those new reports that trump campaign officials had leaks s