and the federal reserve chair janet yellen gives us a look at the speech later today. this comes on the hinge of another interest rate in the works this month. that does it for us on this rig. i have now decided to recuse myself from any existing or future investigations of any matter relating in any way to the campaigns for president of the united states. >> that major development to the story that was unfolding during our show yesterday morning. attorney general jeff sessions recusing himself from investigations into russia's meddling into the 2016 elections. of course, that doesn't end the story. there still a lot of questions to be answered. did attorney general sessions change his story? what did the white house know and when did it know it? who exactly is the russian

ambassador at the center of this kris? is he a diplomat? or as many people are saying in washington, d.c. today, a spy? are the democrats holding the administration accountable or are they, once again, overplaying their hand. ? we have another big lineup this morning including the top house democrat on the intelligence committee, congressman adam schiff. also a member of the senate intelligence committee senator angus king and member of the richard blumenthal and ambassador mike mcfaul. mika is down with the weather this morning. we have willie geist and john

heilemann and nick confessore and ai ari melber and kasie hun. yesterday morning i got the sense we were going to be spending the next few days talking about an administration stonewalling and not getting it. now, of course, jeff sessions moves out pretty quickly and follows the advice of a lot of us had around the set, which is get out there and recuse yourself and try to get that part of the story behind us. as we are saying, still a lot of unanswered questions. >> recusal is not far enough for a lot of people including nancy pelosi, including many leading democrats on the hill and including many of our guests today saying he should resign. attorney general jeff sessions will stay in his job

but as joe said, recuse himself from investigations into russia's attempt to influence the 2016 election and passing that probe to acting attorney general dana boe next ee until rod rosenstein can be confirmed. here first is that change with senator al franken during sessions' sworn testimony during his confirmation hearing and followed by what sessions said yesterday. >> if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the trump campaign communicated with the russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do? >> senator franken, i'm not aware of any of those activities. i have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and i did not have communications with the russians.

may i reply to the question of senator franken was honest and correct, as i understood it at the time. i appreciate that some of taken the view that this was a false comment. that is is not my intent. that is is not correct. i will write the judiciary committee soon, today or tomorrow, and to explain this testimony for the record. >> attorney general sessions continued to defend what he answered to the judiciary committee during an interview last night with fox news and he said the recusal he announced yesterday had been planned ahead of time. >> over two weeks later, the national security adviser has to resign because of conversations that he had. also in his capacity as a nonsurrogate for the campaign. with the very came ambassador. did anyone on your staff say to you, holy smokes, perhaps we should clarify this because you could see how it could be a problem? >> no, i never gave that a thought and never considered it. i don't believe anyone ever mentioned that to me and quite

different circumstances to me, tucker, unrelated. we had a full meeting a week or so ago and planned to have a meeting today. it was on our schedule to make a final decision about whether or not i should recuse myself. and the reason i believed i should recuse mice yself is bec i was involved in the campaign and i think it would be perceived i wouldn't be objected in participating in an investigation that might involve the campaign. i do not confirm or deny any investigation. i just felt like i should clear the air and we are moving toward that end even before this latest flap. >> joe, attorney general sessions gave that answer last night to tucker. he also said during his press conference yesterday that he answered the question the way he did to senator franken because he was taken aback by the news and in hindsight he should have said i did have the two meetings with the russian ambassador.

>> yeah. john heilemann, some people are looking at the press conference yesterday and thought he did a pretty good job, considering the tough circumstances that i spoke with that are actually critics of the administration. for me, there is just still too many tough questions about how you don't answer that question whether a simple yes, i have. that is -- i just don't get that. i haven't heard anything to really explain that. >> i totally agree. his performance yesterday, if i had been advising him as his attorney, i'm not an attorney, but if i were, i would have advised him not to give that performance at all given that perjury is still a question with him and he raised a lot of questions with his performance yesterday saying he didn't remember a whole bunch of things which is a standard thing for people to do in legal situations like this but saying he remembered the details of various exchanges that he had with the russian ambassador,

just not the ones that are currently at issue related to the campaign. he talked about a trip he had taken to the soviet union in the past and people of faith came to the soviet union. so on. look. i think given the timing of the meetings, given that he traveled we now know to the republican convention in cleveland on campaign money and not senate office money and in the news this morning. given the second meeting took place when the question of russian hacking was so much in the news. the notion that he met with the russian ambassador and we also know that one of the things he spoke about at the cleveland convention, were the russian ambassador was president was the campaign. so there are a lot of questions here and there is a lot about his prs conference yesterday that i think raise more questions than they answer and don't at all ring to a normal person listening to this and remembering the circumstances, remembering the timing an awful lot about the things that jeff sessions said yesterday that just do not ring true.

>> ari melber, i had a torts professor, dr. pierson, professor pierson at the university of florida, and he would say construct the greatest argument you can construct. then before you go into the courtroom, as you're getting ready in the morning, deliver the most difficult part of your argument to the jury into the mirror. and if you start laughing at yourself, it doesn't pass the straight face test. and you have to go back to -- you know, you got to start it all over again. and there just are some parts of this testimony or his testimony and then this statement that just don't seem to pass the straight face test. but can he continue repeating them and avoid any possible perjury charges? >> on the legal threshold for perjury, that is probably his best piece of this, because as

you know from being in congress while this is often raised, actual indictable action based on a misstatement or even falsehood to congress is relatively rare. it's a high bar. it's meaningful or willful deceit. that is why even before he made the news of saying he would recuse at the very top of the presser yesterday, he said, well, he ctain didn't mean to. he certainly didn't intend to deceive. in other words, okay, even if i said something that wasn't true, i didn't mean that and that is a kind of a proactive defense to perjury. so just because it's a high bar, joe, that is probably an area where legally he is in less jeopardy although this all looks bad. having said that, then you have the other layers here. what happened with russia during the campaign? still a big question. then you have why did you say things that now don't add up? were they false at the time or memory problems? the point you were just raising, joe. third the heart of this mat wte what is the legal process and independence and another

headline. a lot of headlines this morning. what jumped out in the fox news interviewer is basically the attorney general saying, hey, i'm going to recuse myself from anything up to election day but not necessarily after. here is what he said last night. >> does your recusal extend to, say, an investigation into the leaks that led to the departure of general flynn? >> these things have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. any time anything comes up connected to the campaign, i would be recused because i made that clear. if something else comes up that is not related to the campaign, we would go through the same process, as i committed to the senate and that i have done and that is to see if there is a reason i should not be involved in the case. so i think i've performed exactly correctly for an attorney general of the united states. >> the key headline there being, joe, that is the attorney general saying he is stepping aside but only up to election

day. now let's not prejudge. i'm not saying we know know whether there was malfeasance or not. we don't. we know the fbi was talking to general flynn and others about activities after election day. so he made a big point of going independent yesterday, then does an interview within hours saying, but i'm not independent as to all of these other things the fbi is looking at. >> it's reported this morning of other trump campaign people meeting with the same ambassador. kasie hunt on capitol hill, democrats yesterday holding press conferences falling all over each other and calling for the resignation of jeff sessions. they got the recusal, not the resignation, obviously. what will they did to push for and where does this go next? >> the reality is democrats are pretty limited in what they can do. they can essentially make a lot of noise and i think pressure on them to go farther than they already had. keep in mind chuck schumer, the democratic leader, had called for the recusal weeks ago. so they had to kind of come out

and say something else considering all of this new evidence had come to light. but there was some variation. schumer was a lot more measured than nancy pelosi who the house leader who went so far to say, sure, we should be talking about the penalties for perjury which, you know, if you're a normal citizen could potentially land you in jail. so i do think there is a little bit of danger for democrats on this particular thing if they go so far as to overplay their hands. i think one of the lessons we learned in the 2016 election is americans are sick of foul outrage, if you will. they want somebody who is willing to kind of dispense with all of that and put it all out there. i think democrats outraged about something they don't have a solid case, i think up to this recusal, suddenly, the facts became very clear, it became very clear that jeff sessions version of the facts was not presented correctly to the committee. and so action needed to be taken. now i think going forward, all

of ari's points are valid. >> president trump stood by jeff sessions yesterday and responding to questions about his attorney general just hours before sessions announced his recusal. >> mr. president, do you still have confidence in the attorney general, sir? >> total. that was aboard the "gerald r. ford" in virginia yesterday. after sessions' news conference president trump released a written statement, writing, quote.

westbound that is a statement from the president of the united states. >> feels like he wrote that. >> yeah. got the exclamation point at the end and everything. >> i like it when those things don't feel like it's cooked up in a press shop and feels like a statement was actually a statement of the person who claims to be making the statement. >> to make the obvious point, here he was out there. the president saying that the attorney general should not recuse himself. hours later, the attorney general does. it's not how it's supposed to work. the press made an unforced error and undermined the independence he was trying to show. >> also, the last time he stood by somebody 100% was mike flynn. >> and he was gone 48 hours later. >> look. the story is changing so fast and the reality, the fake news reality that the president is talking about. look. a few days ago it was contacts note. right? and then after that, it was,

well, there was a meeting but not about the election. then after that, it was, well, there was a meeting but it was like a light discussion of the election. it keeps changing which is not good for them. >> yeah. and, joe, if you look at that statement from president trump, he basically dismisses the entire question of russia. not just the jeff sessions questions but the entire question of russia as a cover for democrats trying to explain away why they lost an election they should have won. from his point of view, we shouldn't be looking at the russian question. >> maybe we don't be looking at it quite so much if people who work for him in the administration didn't keep lying about meeting ambassadors that they had every right to meet. if you have a national security adviser who lies about a phone call that he's having with a russian adviser when he has every right, russian ambassador when he has every right to make that phone call, you have to scratch your head and say, well, what is going on that would make him lie about something he could

have told the truth about just as easily? then you have an attorney general that certainly appears to have lied with a basic question about meeting with russians when he wasn't even asked if he met with russians. he volunteered the fact that he was a part of the campaign and he had never met with any russian officials. yet, he met with an ambassador twice. john heilemann, as you point out, the first time it was a campaign that paid his expenses to get out to the convention and meet with the russian ambassador, and the second time -- before we go to break, i just want to throw this question to everybody at the table and we will start with you, john. what in the world could explain a man as smart as jeff sessions who can remember trips to moscow and can remember things that happened back in 1986 in

hearings and can remember the finite details of conversations he had when he was or wasn't telling a joke in 1981 or '82 or '86. he can recall things in his testimony that he did more than 40 years ago. yesterday, he doesn't remember a conversation with the russian ambassador? which is unusual for the first time. i can tell you that as a member of the house armed services committee. we didn't have ambassadors meeting with us. that is what the foreign affairs guys and women did. but he can't remember that unusual meeting when the issue of russia is on the front pages of every newspaper? them trying to hack and impact our election? is there anything explanation to that? >> i cannot think of one that seems plausible, especially in this context, right? we have had reporting the past 24 hours about the member of the senate armed services committee, as far as i know at this moment

not a single one, except i think claire mccaskill who met with a russian ambassador once and i don't think anyone on that committee, including john mccain, who have met with the russian ambassador, right? so here is the circumstance when the first meeting took place. the russian ambassador is at the republican convention. he is meeting with jeff sessions who was the first united states senator to endorse donald trump. one of donald trump's most prominent spokes people, surrogates, backers. for a long time the only member of the united states senate who was with donald trump. those circumstances, the idea that the reason that the russian ambassador was going to meet with jeff sessions was to discuss anything other than donald trump's campaign, the prospect that donald trump might become president of the united states. political matters. it just does not ring remotely true there is a plausible alternative explanation. given all of the facts, given the timing, given all of the circumstances. i'm not saying it's impossible. but i can't think of an argument

for how any of this makes sense other than that there is at least, at a minimum, a shading of the truth on sessions' part and possible something much worse. >> as you look at this, before we go to break, ari, is there trouble still ahead for jeff sessions? was the recusal enough for him to step away from this russia story? >> it's a partial recusal to hard to see how that solves all of the problems. it's incredible if you just take a step back and remember, as joe was pointing out, the big questions are whether this election was on the level and whether foreign adversary was trying to interfere and doesn't mean they succeeded and everyone that might have benefited from that was in on it but those are big meaty questions for this government, for this administration to on get to the bottom of and rather than making any effort to do that, they seem to be catching up with disclosures when they come out from the independent press, when they come out from members of congress under pressure or leaks from the fbi or elsewhere, then they catch up and try to answer it. then the answer is, well, because of this big problem, we

are going to recuse half of the issues. it's not a secret or unknown thing that the fbi was investigating what flynn did during the transition. that is post-campaign. that is post-recusal as it's been defined. remember, again, we always speak fairly. folks are innocent until proven guilty. the fbi has not done anything saying crimes have been committed. they investigate potential federal crimes and doing that during the transition period and on the attorney general's own statement he is not recusing himself from that. >> ari melber, thanks so much. >> thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," we will look into the other man in the center of this. russian ambassador sergie kislyak. and then adam schiff will join us and ambassador michael mcfaul and rand paul who is on the mission to find out what is in the republicans, apparently, top secret new plan to replace

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look at the questions surrounding jeff sessions because they all center on russian ambassador sergey kislyak. you are taking a closer look at this guy. who is this man? >> well known amongst the community being a fixture in washington, d.c. 66 years old. he has an elder daughter. he joined the foreign ministry in 1995. since 2008 the ambassador in washington. take a look at jeff sessions chronology. the big question here is why not on january 10th, just say i met with the russian ambassador because that is who you talked to when you're worried there is meddling in the election and that there is hacking. the best anecdote of the day.

the ambassador host parties for fellow dimplomats and at a recet event bartenders served vodka, the brand sold by costco. i want that diplomatic cable that is saying that. >> i don't know why you are being snobby about costco. >> i lost costco. >> general flynn meeting at trump tower in december. a real point of contact for people inside the trump campaign. >> of all the names in this story on both sides, the american and russian side, the one person who was doing their job it seems better than anybody else was the russian ambassador. he was getting to the people you need to talk to. his main job in the past few months is gauging the trump administration and what potentially is going to change. he gave a recent interview end of january to our local affiliate in washington, d.c. they threw a yearly ball there.

take a listen to some sound. >> you know one of the thing that is missing in russian/american relations is the interaction between the societies. you know, we have always kept doors for better relations open. the previous administration, the new administration, we already interested to build a really productive and useful relations for both countries. >> a man who never closes any doors. >> very interesting. there is always talk, there is always suspicion about a russian ambassador, perhaps working two ways or perhaps working in a capacity that most ambassadors don't usually work. recruitment, things like that. talk about that around here but no evidence of it. >> there is a lot. this is an area none of one of my expertise but reading about it the last few days.

people who report on the national security and intel community and the spy game say, as you said, willy, most russian ambassador are slightly in the business of looking for potential assets if they are in washington, d.c. that this gentleman has been a particularly, again, this reporting that the suggestion that he is particularly aggressive and successful in that area. a recruiter of those who might turn. >> calipery, fascinating look. thanks very much. coming up, democrats want another crack at jeff sessions. we will talk to senator richard blumenthal who is calling on the attorney general to be brought back to the judiciary committee for another hearing under oath. we will talk to the senator about that next on "morning joe." earning your cash back shouldn't be this complicated. yet some cards limit where you earn bonus cash back to a few places. and then, change those places every few months.

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♪ with us now we have a member of the judiciary committee connecticut senator richard blumenthal. senator, always great to talk to you. let me start with the most obvious question. can you trust the word of the united states attorney general? >> the united states attorney

general should be brought back to the judiciary committee so we can know why he apparently falsely denied that he had meetings with russians. the only way he can restore full trust and credibility is to answer our questions under oath and correct and clarify the record so that the integrity and credibility that the department of justice is really sustained. and that is very, very important. >> senator, let me ask you, though. point blank, did he lie? based on all of the information that you know when he was in front of the judiciary committee and told you and the entire committee in response to senator franken's question that he had never met with any members of the russian government? we found out that he met with him twice. did he lie in front of the judiciary committee? >> he certainly made a seemingly

false statement. there is no way to explain it based on what we know now, other than to say it was a false denial of that meeting, which is why he need to come back and testify under oath. >> what would you like him to say when he comes back? >> i'd like him to explain what was said during that september 8th meeting. remember, it was at the height of the campaign season, during a time of widespread reports of russian interference in our election and possible complicit and connection between the trump campaign and the russians. and that kind of meeting requires an explanation. who said what? how did the meeting take place? who has notes about it that we can see? and what came of it. and, also, what other meetings there may have been. because if he misled us as to that meeting, what other meetings might he also have failed to disclose? >> if he lied to your committee,

do you believe perjury charges against him should be pursued? >> what i really believe, joe, is that he should be cooperative in the investigation that is ongoing right now. the fbi is at the tip of that spear and we need to know all of the facts involving potential complicit or connection between the trump campaign, but also the trump tran circumstances team and the trump administration and the russian interference. it was not just an accidental or coincidental interference. it was a sustained act, an act of war on the united states of america. that is really the focus i think should be right now. the possibility of criminal charges maybe ought to be reviewed, but the point is that the violations of the perjury statute and false statement statute are complex and difficult to prove.

the important thing is to protect the united states of america and the integrity of our democratic institution. >> senator, the question surrounding all of these stories we have been talking about where there is a lot of smoke and not yet fire at the center of the meetings, including the one that jeff sessions had with the ambassador, is was the trump campaign complicit in this act of war as you call it with russia? were they working hand in hand to get donald trump elected president? knowing what you know now, do you believe they were working together? >> i believe that there was involvement or knowledge by members of the trump campaign. certainly some knowledge about what was going on. that's clearly apparent from the circumstantial evidence. but even if there was not, we need to get to the bottom of exactly what happened and there is a circumstantial case to be made here, but there needs to be more proof before we draw any conclusion. >> when you say that, who do you

think specifically knew what was going on? when you say what was going on, what do you mean by that? >> any connections, contacts between the trump campaign and the russians give rise to the supposition that there may have been some involvement. but that, as of yet, has not been shown by the evidence. so let's not lead to conclusions. let's let the fbi do its work and if there was any connection or complicit, that will be uncovered. the most important point here is to avoid a cover-up because as has been frequently observed on this very show, the cover-up is as bad often as the crime, and that is why we need to get to the truth. was there any complicit or improper contact between the trump campaign and the trump transition? and the trump administration, that may have either knowingly or otherwise, encouraged or

emboldened the russians to do what they did. there's no question, apparently none from what the fbi has told us, that the russians did interfere in the campaign and in the election. >> you're not ready to connect those dots about? let the fbi do it if it's there. kasie hunt has a question for you in washington. >> senator, you've called the fbi the tip of the sphere on this more broad question about these investigations. do you have full faith in jim comey, the fbi director? >> fountain fbi is given the resources it needs, i believe that the trained professionals there have the capacity and the determination to uncover the truth. but they need to be given the independence and, in fact, protection from political interference and that is the key question going forward. not just the attorney general recusing himself, but appointing a special prosecutor, an independent prosecutor who will

have the mandate and the independence to conduct an objective, fair, directly involved investigation here which is very, very important. not only to the outcome but to the credibility and trust of the department of justice. i'm going to be calling later in the day, a number of my colleagues and others will be writing to the chairman of the judiciary committee asking that jeff sessions be brought back and answer these questions under oath, because i think it's not only important for the fbi to investigate, but for him to correct that record and avoid a perjury prosecution if one is required under the record right now. the question of the fbi investigation will concern whether or not perjury was committed in the judiciary committee. >> all right. john? >> just real quick, senator. you raised the question of the others in these megs. senator sessions yesterday

helpfully put three aides in meetings he had with the russian ambassador. is the judiciary committee a forum in which those aides could be subpoenaed and brought forward in front of the committee so we could find out what the substance or try to find out what the southbouubsta those conversations are? >> great question. part of what i think needs to be done, as a former prosecutor, as a former federal prosecutor, and state attorney general, is for those staff members to be questioned by our committee, the judiciary committee, so that we can reach a conclusion about whether there was perjury. and also why attorney general sessions may have falsely denied, in fact, did falsely state that there were no meetings. and so those notes that they took, undoubtedly they took notes, and their recollections ought to be tested and to be used to refresh his recollection about what happened. >> senator richard blumenthal, a democrat of connecticut, always good to see you, sir. thanks for being here. >> thank you. still ahead this morning. if you don't fund the state department fully, then i need to

buy more ammunition ultimately. >> more than 100 military leaders are citing that quote from defense secretary james mattis to push back on the president's plan to slash foreign aid. among them, former nato command james devridis who joins us ahead on "morning joe." thanks for loading, sweetie.

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the yemeni government. ahead, we will bring in admiral james stavridis and get his thoughts. george w. bush out of office and seemingly having the time of his life. >> i don't really worry about history. i mean, i know i gave it my all and i'm very comfortable. >> and how do you think obama did as president? >> eventually, he'll be judged just like i'll be judged. in other words, i'm not going to tell you. >> all right. your insurance company won't replace

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want to hear something terrible? >> yeah. >> i had dinner with lauren michaels, the head of "saturday night live." he said i put a great speech writer on you and he came up with a strategiry. i said, wait a minute. i said strategiry. and he said, no, you didn't say strategiry. i said, i damn sure said strategiry! he said, we invent it. i said did he come over with misunderestimate? >> did that ever bother you? >> no. >> any of these guys that imitated you, did it bother you? >> no. i love humor. the best humor is when you make fun of yourself. >> tell that to the president! >> you're good friends with michelle? >> i am. >> yeah? >> yeah. she and i have -- have -- you know, i'm kind of a needler and she handles it pretty well. >> yeah. >> oh, yeah.

that surprised everybody. that is what is so weird about society today, you know? that people on opposite sides of the political spectrum could actually like each other. >> but are you that close -- you're closer to her than barack? >> let's put it this way. he has never given me a hug that way! >> willie, you know, i mean, a lot of us were very rough on george w. bush the last three or four years of his campaign, his presidency. i hear everybody say the same thing. boy, i miss that guy, considering everything that has happened since then. what a great sense of humor and what a great way of looking at not only the presidency, but also politics, saying, hey, of course, you can be friends with people with whom you disagree. >> he really believes that. i was with him this week he's at

my interview on this weekend. i spent a lot of time with him this week. even out of private, i'm not speaking out of school, he has such great respect for president obama and he loves the former first lady michelle obama but you can't get the guy to say anything negative. he said it's a tough job. i know how hard it is. we disagree on thing but i'm not going to be this president that goes around the country attacking a sitting president and go after him. i think he feels that way because some presidents did that to him traveling around the world. he has genuine affection for the obama's and you saw it right there. also, joe. >> i like the quote in "people" magazine interview. >> i thought we were throwing this great package that made us all laugh. >> i was saying on his other conversation with jimmy kimmel about the meeting with lauren michaels, i did an event at the bush library last year with lauren michaels, and they were showing "snl" clips up on the big screen of will farrell doing

george w. bush and you could see some president pilotly laughing because they should and be a good sport about this. president bush was throw your head back and slap your knee laughing at himself. that is will farrell. >> basically, you were at that dinner that bush is referencing there, right, about lower thren michaels. >> the thing i like about the interview with "people" magazine why are you so close to michelle obama? because she laughs at my jokes. we are friend. that's great. >> you also talked about something not so humorous and that was iraq, willie. what was his response to what, obviously, continues to hang over his legacy like a dark cloud? >> he is out doing publicity this week. he has painted 66 veterans wounded in the wars in iraq and afghanistan. he has taken up painting. i asked him about that that sent

the men and women into the war and led to altering their lives forever. here is what he said. is there any part of you, when you meet these men and women and you see their wounds and you see what war was done to their lives, even the internal wounds that we can't see, that has any regret about a decision you may have made to send them into battle? >> i think it was the right decision. i regret that they got hurt. i was heavy hearted when i made the decision to both go into afghanistan and iraq because my that there would be some dire consequences. you know, i don't think i can be effective if i walk around full of regret. >> you'll see that full interview on sunday. we go much deeper into that question of iraq. really no regret. i think his regret is that the united states left iraq when it did and didn't give it time to improve. so that will be sunday. still ahead, katy tur has been sitting here patiently. get to her and talk to senator

angus king about his concern that the intelligence investigation into russia's meddling in the election could be promised and adam schiff explains his claims that the fbi refuses to tell lawmakers everything it knows about russia. he'll explain that when we come back. it's beautiful. was it a hard place to get to? (laughs) it wasn't too bad. with the chase mobile app, jimmy chin can master depositing his hard earned checks in a snap. easy to use chase technology for whatever you're trying to master.

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have you ever stayed with choice hotels? like at a comfort inn? yep. free waffles, can't go wrong. . i like it. promote that guy. get the lowest price on our rooms, guaranteed. when you book direct at choicehotels.com. . book now. i thought he was pretty much of an old style soviet type ambassador. so we talked a little bit about terrorism, as i recall. somehow, the subject of the ukraine came up. i had had ukrainian ambassador in my office the day before. and to listen to him, nothing that russia had done nothing

that was wrong in any area and everybody else was wrong with regard to the ukraine. it got to be a little bit of a -- most of these ambassadors are pretty gossipy. this was in the campaign season. but i don't recall any specific or political discussions. >> that, of course, was jeff sessions yesterday recalling some of portions of his conversation with the russian ambassador, while other parts remained hazy. it all just opens up, obviously, a lot more questions. we have another big lineup this morning, including top white house democrat on the intelligence committee, congressman adam schiff. also a member of the senate intel committee, senator angus king. former u.s. ambassador to

russia, michael mcfaul. and much more. welcome back to "morning joe." it's friday, march 3rd. mika hat morning off. but along with willie and me, we have political analyst and co-author of "game change," john heilemann and nbc news correspondent katy tur. former nato sprem commander and now the dean of the fletcher school of law and diplomacy at tufts universities former admiral james stavridis. political reporter for "the washington post" robert costa and also of "the washington post" eugene robinson. willie, so i guess the question is how believable is jeff sessions? we are talking, of course, some people are talking about perjury, it's certainly a very high bar. but the question really, the

basic question is how can this man be trusted moving forward if it high point of the controversy with rusch hacking in to the dnc and trying to change the results of our election, he didn't tell the truth in frovent of his own coment? >> senator blumenthal of connecticut not saying that jeff sessions perjured himself but democratic leads including chum schumer and nancy pelosi still pushing for the resignation of the attorney general. he will stay in his job you but recuse himself from russia's attempts to influence the 2016 tlaexs a elections and passi that role to acting attorney general dana boente until rod rosenstein can be confirmed. yesterday, sessions defended

himself. here is, first, that exchange with al franken during sessions sworn testimony during his confirmation hearing, followed by what he said yesterday. >> if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the trump campaign communicated with the russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do? >> senator franken, i'm not aware of any of those activities. i have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and i did not have communications with the russians. my reply to the question of senator franken was honest and correct, as i understood it at the time. i appreciate that some of taken the view that this was a false comment. that is not my intent. that is not correct. i will write the judiciary committee soon, today or tomorrow, and to explain this testimony for the record.

the attorney general continued to defend what he said to fox news and said his recusal had been planned ahead of time. >> a little over two weeks later, the national security adviser has to resign because of conversations he had also in his capacity as a nonsurrogate for the campaign with the very same ambassador. did anyone on your staff say to you, holy smokes, perhaps we should clarify this because you could see how it could be a problem? >> no, i never gave that a thought and never considered it. i don't believe anyone ever mentioned that to me and quite different circumstances to me, tucker, unrelated. we had a full meeting a week or so ago and planned to have a meeting today. it was on our schedule to make a final decision about whether or not i should recuse myself. and the reason i believed i should recuse myself is because i was involved in the campaign an to a degree, i think it

would be perceived i wouldn't be objected in participating in an investigation that might involve the campaign. i do not confirm or deny any investigation. i just felt like i should clear the air and we are moving toward that end even before this latest flap. >> joe, the question of why jeff sessions didn't disclose that meeting during the confirmation hearing. then the question of why he had the meeting in the first place. he answered tucker's question saying he didn't recall any discussion of the campaign with the russian ambassador, quote, in any significant way. >> again, the question is why defini did he have the meeting? portions of the meeting he says he can't remember and his statement yesterday was he didn't remember any portions of that conversation. so as we said last hour, the explanations just keep changing by the hour. let's bring in admiral james

stavridis. admiral, this meeting occurred in the midst of really the high point of the russian controversy and them trying to hack basically into the united states election and impact the outcome. how concerning is this to you? >> i think it's very concerning. let's face it. events have context and that is what you're describing accurately, joe. i think in the end, thg going to turn a bit on the russian ambassador. you know, that old saw that diplomats are good men sent abroad to lie in the service of their country. they are also sent abroad to spy in the service of their country. i think if you follow the facts here and it turns out that the attorney general was involved in any way discussing russian activities adjacent or in that campaign, i think that is very, very troubling. >> joe, before you move on here, let me sprinkle in nbc's producer in moscow this morning has just confirmed comments from russian's foreign minister saying, quote, for the situation

around russian/american raelgs and in particular the contacts that our ambassador was making and continues to make, i can say only one thing. ambassadors are being appointed to maintained relations with the host country. i can't help but cite a quote published by the media today. all of this looks like a witch hunt or the times of mccarthyism which we believe were long over in the united states, a civilized country. that is russian's foreign minister referring to president trump's response to sessions' recusal last night. president trump calling this, quote, a witch hunt. >> i was going to say, it must be very comforting to people of the united states that the commander in chief of their country has aligned his statements with the russians. another wonderful reason to be gleeful this morning about the state of american/russian relations. gene robinson, a witch hunt. that is, obviously, an interesting phrase.

mccarthyism is an interesting phrase. i guess the president calling it a total witch hunt. perhaps the witch hunt, perhaps torches would go down a few inches and people might put the torches to their side if members of the president's cabinet would stop lying about things that under normal circumstances wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. but when you have your national security adviser lying repeatedly and lying to the vice president of the united states and letting the vice president of the united states lie to the rest of america about a simple phone call with the russian ambassador. and then you have your attorney general lying to his own committee about two meetings that he had with the russian ambassador that he somehow forgot. i'm sorry, that raises a lot more questions. if they would stop lying, then perhaps people would stop searching so hard for the truth.

>> that's absolutely right. look. they would get the benefit of all the doubt but they certainly don't now. number one, it's all about russia and continues to be about russia. so why wouldn't people be interested in trying to find out more about this relationship or apparent relationship between the russians and the trump campaign? because they keep lying about it. and as for jeff sessions, i mean, frankly, again, he does not get the benefit of the doubt any more. if he says we didn't discuss the campaign in any significant way. what does that mean? in fact, it's totally not credible that at that point, in september of last year, the russian ambassador would have met with jeff sessions and not mentioned the fact that the campaign was going on and kind of asked him about it because he was a part of the trump inner circle? i mean, it's just not credible it didn't come up. to what extent did it come up? look. the committees on the hill are going to have to find out, the

fbi is going to have to find out. we just need to know. >> so as all of this unfolded, revelations of other meetings between people in the trump campaign and the russian ambassador. nbc news has confirmed with the white house that "the new york times" was first to report that michael flynn and jared kushner participated in a previously undisclosed meeting with ambassador kislyak in december last year at trump tower. j.d. gordon and page who spoke to the ambassador on the sidelines of the rnc. while it's not known what they discussed exactly, it's not unusual for staff or advisers to meet diplomats at political conventions. it further contradicts months of denials of meetings between campaign staff and the russian government. >> i'll ask again. did you have any meetings last year with russian officials in russia? outside russia? anywhere? >> i had no meetings. no meetings. i might have said hello to a few people. you know as they are walking by me at my graduation -- the

graduation speech i gave in july, but no meetings. >> did you meet sergey kislyak in clolveed and develand and dio him? >> i won't deny i did talk to him. >> so you did. >> i will say i did not meet him anywhere outside of cleveland, say that much. >> the only time you met him was in cleveland? >> that i may have met him, possibly, it might have been in cleveland. again, i'm respectful to the organizers. i'm respectful to confidentiality rules and whether it's in government or outside -- >> you're not going to deny you talked to him in cleveland? >> i do not deny that. >> that is carter page with chris hayes last night. he stopped with the campaign over a speech he gave in moscow criticizing american foreign policy and sanctions against russia. as for his meeting with the ambassador, gordon told the paper, quote.

gordon reportedly helped change the republican party's platform at the convention regarding ukraine. during the convention, the rnc eliminated specific calls in arms with ukraine in its fight to russia and campaign manager paul manafort denied that the campaign played any role. katy tur, a lot to sift through. >> so many coincidences that keep falling one after another and lining up. now it is fair to ask everybody that is involved with the trump campaign, the trump transition, the trump administration whether they had any contacts with russian officials or have any ties to russia. nobody is -- you can ask anybody that. that is a fair question. we were just talking about this during the break. kislyak when he was meeting with jared kushner and mike flynn at trump tower in december, there is a cspan camera and pool of cameras lining that lobby. they knew everybody that went in and went out, except for those

that were brought in in secret, brought in the back way. those that trump tower people that donald trump did not want to see go in and kislyak was one of those people. on january 23rd sean spicer talking to a number of reporters said that there were no flynn/russia talks before december 29. he said just these two conversations. he called them text messages. but jared kushner had a meeting with mike flynn and the russian ambassador before then. so jared kushner knew that sean spicer was not being truthful for the press. is there a point if they don't get caught in this, they are just not going to be honest with exactly what is going on? just until reporters find them and catch them in a lie and what we expect from this administration from now on? >> items extraordinary, given the controversy that we had a week ago where the administration was saying all of these stories about sustained conversations between the trump

campaign and russia are, obviously, all made up, we had a controversy last week, them going to the fbi and to others on the hill to try to knock these stories down. now just on the basis of what we currently know, we have got the former national security adviser, we have got the current attorney general, we have got jared kushner. we have got a long and growing list of public, now known contacts between the trump campaign and russia. it raises just tons of questions, as she says about the veracity but it seems that everyone had a senior role in the trump campaign, as far as we know other than donald trump himself was talking to the russians during the campaign. >> why were they doing it? why? >> this is the big question. admiral? >> you could argue some of these meetings were conventional and perhaps innocuous. we don't know what they were talking about inside. but the fact that they were held in secret, many of them and lied about later is what raises all of the questions. >> indeed. and, again, it's the context. this is in the middle of a

series of cyberattacks against the united states including hacking into john podesta's e-mail and include taking down the dnc, including obvious fake news stories planned. wh -- planted. when you put that with the fact pattern that john and katy just described it is very disturbing. >> we have said all week you could look at these meetings in the vacuum but in the context in which they were taking place which is all of these questions around russia meddling in the election. >> right. when america's scybersecurity ws talked about every day and how the russians were attacking us in their version of a cyberwar. in the middle of that, when donald trump is on the front page of the newspapers that day praising vladimir putin, this meeting with jeff sessions and russian ambassador takes place. he can't recall why the meeting

took place? he can't recall all of the conversations in that meeting? it strains the credibility of the attorney, i believe. bob costa, obviously, donald trump and jeff sessions are extraordinarily close. it's so funny when all of these talks during the transition was about who was up and who was down. you would hear, oh, wait. bannon, you know, because bannon had, i guess, press releases sent out saying i'm in charge here. you'd have bannon and priebus and all of these other factions that the press would be obsessing on. i always thought it was funny. they weren't looking at the real power which was actually jeff sessions. sessions and trump are extraordinarily close. steven miller, a former sessions man. now at the heart of running the white house. >> we often talk about the so-called two steve's running the white house right now. bannon and miller. long before steve bannon and

steven miller came to trump's orbit, there was jeff sessions and then the baum senator, i was with sessions and trump in august of 2015 when they were together in mobile, alabama. in trump, sessions saw a person who could really carry his own agenda forward, a nationalist agenda on trade and immigration and been a constant at trump's side, especially politically, if not personally, over the last year and a half. and this is why i'm told, yesterday, when the president was going to his event in virginia and on the way home back to the white house, hwas talking constantly on the plane about sessions, about how he was going to stick by sessions, about what he saw as a witch hunt against his attorney general. because this isn't just another cabinet member for president trump. this is the political soul of his administration. you have trump and his allies out in force to try to protect him. >> gene robinson, we have a series, not one or two, but a series of undisclosed meeting between the trump campaign, trump transition team and

russian officials including the russian ambassador. fbi investigation, house and senate intel investigations. where does this go next? >> first of all, i think we are likely to continue the drip, drip, drip of revelations in so far there is more to be revealed. it's been extraordinary this week as media outlets, including "the post" and "the new york times" and "the wall street journal" have found out incrementally more about this story and i think that is likely to continue. and reaction to that. i mean, contrary to the attorney general's statements, i find it hard to damage that he just happened to recuse himself on a day it was revealed that he had given palpably falls statements in his confirmation hearing. i think that is what is going to happen and the investigations will go on. we, the public, don't exactly know what the fbi is up to, what

they are finding. we will watch as capitol hill gets its act together or not in its investigations. there will be a wrangle over that. ultimately i think we are going to find out a lot more and i fear a lot more to find out. >> gene robinson, thanks so much. always good to have you in the conversation. admiral, i want to ask you quickly about the letter you signed this week about the budget proposal from donald trump 54 billion in additional marry and defense spending. >> yeah. >> you're against it. why? >> i am for the state department. i am for a.i.d. in other words, i think we need an increase in defense spending. we can have a discussion about how much but what we cannot do is make that increase on the back of our diplomats, our aid. because that is the long game, the soft power side. you need the hard power. we are not negotiating a solution with the islamic state but the long game is on the soft power side, the mistake would be cutting state, cutting a.i.d.a and cutting foreign aid.

that diminishes our security. >> thanks so much, admiral. good to see you. bob costa, stay with us. still ahead on "morning joe," forget his resignation. some democrats now demanding the attorney general be investigated for perjury. independent senator angus king isn't going that far but he does want to haul sessions back before the judiciary committee. the senator will join us next. the top democrat in the house intel committee adam schiff and republican senator rand paul will join us. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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are there any ties between mr. trump, you, or your campaign and putin and it's regime? >> on no, there are not. it's absurd. you know, no basis to it. >> i hear people saying it like it's a fact on television. that is not only inaccurate and false but dangerous. >> can you say with 100% confidence that mr. trump or anybody in his campaign had

no -- no conversations with anybody in russia during the campaign? >> no. i mean, i'm just telling you, i -- it's all phony baloney garbage. >> did any adviser or anybody in the trump campaign have any contact with the russians who are trying to meddle in the election? >> well, of course, not. >> i had nothing to do with russia. to the best of my knowledge, no person that i deal with this. >> i think that russia's involvement in activity has been investigated up and down. how many people have to say that there is nothing there before you realize there is nothing there? >> well, maybe when we actually get evidence that there is nothing there. with us now is a member of both the intelligence and armed services committees, independent senator angus king of maine. senator, thank you so much for being with us. you're on the intel committee. obviously, a lot of concerns about the fact that one trump official after another has lied publicly, lied to the press

about their meetings with members of the russian government. then we find out later they actually did meet with the russian government. and then they are speinning tha fact to suggest it's much to do about nothing. what are your concerns as a member of the intel committee and can the intel committee, itself, conduct a thorough enough investigation that americans can be convinced that there is nothing nefarious about this relationship? >> well, i think it's very important what you just said at the end, joe, that the american people are convinced. it has to be straight up, it has to be transparent, it has to be thorough, and nonpartisan, and that is exactly what we are trying to do. it's hard. as you can imagine, this is what i would call a fraud atmosphere where there is a lot at stake, there are a lot of emotions on both sides. yet, i can tell you from having served on this committee for

four years and the membership is generally consistent, there have been some changes, but it's -- we generally operate in an entirely nonpartisan way. very rarely can i remember party line vote, one or two maybe in four years. i'm positive that we can move forward. i'm positive -- i'm not positive as in absolutely sure but i'm positive about our ability to move forward in a nonpartisan way. marco rubio said it best a couple of days ago. ed i'm not going to participate in either a whitewash or a witch hunt and that is exactly the way i feel. the committee, by the way, joe, is carefully balanced. it's eight republicans, six democrats, and me. so if you count me with the democrats, that is 8-7. that means one republican switching on any vote and it goes the other way so not like it's overwhelming republican. also senator john mccain as chair of the armed services committee and ex officio member and i think gives people

confidence because john mccain doesn't take any guff off of anybody. >> no, he does not. >> i think we can do it but it's not going to be easy. >> senator, what do you say to your constituents about the fact you have so many trump officials who have deliberately lied about meeting with russian officials? this has now become a pattern. we just showed some of the clips coming in. but you even had the chief of staff saying there were absolutely no meetings. you had people inside the trump white house trying to get the intel community to throw cold water on the fact that all of these officials met with russians and here we find out a week later that, in fact, that was true. >> well, this morning, abc and "the wall street journal" are reporting that donald trump jr. flew to paris in october and met with a group of french people that are closely aligned with

russia and the russian point of view. so there's another one. now i can't confirm that. i'm just saying that this is what is in the news today. the denials remind me of obi-wan kenobi in the first "star wars." he says these aren't the droids you're looking for and they fly on by. we just got to continue to follow this and it's in the interest of the president and the people around him to get this all out. it's the drip, drip that is really going to be damaging and, you know, i just think the more they can get out, the better it's going to be, because eventually, the public is going to say, they keep saying nothing is happening. yet, you have these series of meetings. i can neither confirm nor deny anything that we are learning in the intelligence committee but i can tell you that this is one of the major issues that we are

going to be following for sure. >> senator king, willie geist in new york. some of your colleagues in the senate including dick durbin i'm reading a session sfr him saying jeff sessions testimony is a pretty clear-cut case of perjury. he says a.g. sessions said he hadn't communicated with the russians. that is false. and he said it under oath. do you believe now attorney general sessions perjured himself? >> i'm not prepared to conclude that. perjury is a very serious charge and it involves some element, if i remember, from my law school days correctly, sienter. it has to be conscious and you can't have forgotten something or make a misstatement. i think senator sessions should come back before the judiciary committee under oath as he was before and answer these questions more directly and try, any way, to clarify what he said and what he meant in both of those questions from senator franken and then senator leahy

in the written questions, there was some, as a surrogate of the campaign, were there meetings with the russians? it's ambiguous enough so that given the gravity of the charge, i think he should have an opportunity to go back before the committee and make what clarification he can and then the committee can decide how they -- whether they are satisfied with those explanations. >> senator, it's nick confessore. i'm thinking about the overall trump world here. carter page, paul manafort, you know, were thinking of flynn taking money from a russian propaganda outlet. thinking of these meetings. is there any precedent in american history for the density of connections between the president's circle and a hostile foreign power? >> i certainly never recall of anything of this nature. the closest i can think of is the connections between charles

lindbergh and nazi germany in the '30s and, you know, he spent a lot of time with german leaders during that time, but i can never recall anything of this kind. and i'm reading a book now about washington's farewell address and i can tell you the framers were obsessed with the danger of foreign interference in our politics and in our system. it was one of the things that george washington had talked about in the farewell address. madison and hamilton talked about it in the federalist papers. we have never anything like this. here is one way i think we ought to think about it. people say it was a cyberattack, they hacked the commuters. what if a group of russian paratroopers had dropped into washington in the middle of the night, broke into the democratic national committee headquarters and physically taken the computers out and put them under their arms and escape in a smoorn down the potomac river? essentially what happened and as

if there was a physical intrusion. the fact it was in cyber doesn't change the fact as senator mccain said yesterday, this was an attack on our democracy. >> senator, bob costa of "the washington post" has a question for you. >> senator, senator burr of north carolina, the chairman of the select committee on intelligence and congressman nunez of california, both them have publicly acknowledged working with the white house on this russia matter. do you have confidence in the congressional republicans, the majorities, to investigate these issues moving forward? >> well, i can't speak on the house side at all. i don't know. congressman nunez, i don't know that committee. i can just speak for the committee i serve on. i've talked to richard burr about that. i think that was an unfortunate decision. apparently it involved one call. i don't know the details. and, you know, these things are going to happen. as i said, the committee is so

carefully balanced, i don't think we are going to see a problem of a partisan whitewash, if you will. and i think -- i think chairman burr understands that even taking that call from the white house probably wasn't the best decision, but i don't think it prejudices our work on the committee. >> senator king, it's katy tur here. do you think that the russians, some way or another are trying to manipulate american lawmakers? it's not enough to say that kislyak knew that jeff sessions was a key adviser to the trump campaign? >> you asked two questions. the first question were they trying to manipulate our public system and the answer is yes. they are doing it right now in germany and in france. they are in the middle of those two campaigns. i met with people from the baltic states, last fall, they

are doing it there all the time and doing it in poland. this is how they work. they have discovered a cheap way to get into and be aggressive against the west to undermine western democrats. i mentioned yesterday just on the back of the envelope for the price of one f-35 jet aircraft they can fire 35,000 hackers and doing this effectively all over not only in the united states but in other parts of the world. this is what they do. they are very sophisticated. >> i'm sorry to interrupt. >> no. >> no? >> well -- no, i'm sorry. i was saying it was okay for you to interrupt. >> no. the question is do you think they were -- targeting jeff sessions? >> well, i have no knowledge of that. but it does seem interesting he is the senator that the ambassador went to see. i'm on the armed services committee as well and my phone

didn't ring during that period and i don't know. i've talked to a group of my other colleagues. they didn't get visited by the russian ambassador. so again, i can't judge what was in the russian ambassador's head at the time, but he was probably not oblivious to the fact that senator sessions -- might become president of the united states. >> senator angus king of maine, always appreciate you to be here. thank you so much. >> good to be with you, joe. >> bob costa, thank you as well. comump, donald trump is up and tweeting this morning. it is so pathetic that the dems have still not approved my full cabinet. yesterday, ben carson was sworn in as hud secretary and rick perry as energy secretary. the secretary of the interior ryan z zinc showed up on a hors.

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mr. president, do you still have confidence in the attorney general, sir? >> total. president trump aboard the "uss gerald r. ford" yesterday responding to questions about his attorney general just hours before jeff sessions announced his recusal. trump saying he wasn't aware, wasn't the first time the president has either claimed he didn't know about a big issue or seem to place blame on someone else. >> i didn't direct him but i would have directed him because that is his job. i don't know about it. i haven't seen it. well, i don't know. i was given that information. this was a mission that was

started before i got here and they lost ryan. >> no he was not aware as he is not back briefed on every conversation that his national security team has. >> as i said, let's give a one month notice but the law enforcement people said to me, you can't give a notice. >> so, joe, do you see a pattern here of the buck perhaps not stopping there? >> well, i mean, we have seen other white houses dodge from time to time -- do this from time to time. i guess, john heilemann, this has happened an awful lost the past month and several of those clips not being true. donald trump did know, for instance, when he was on the airplane, about michael flynn's lies. he did know about other things that he claimed to be ignorant about. so a pattern definitely has emerged certainly very quickly in this young administration. >> yeah. you know, it gives a lie to the trump's claim a couple of weeks when he said that the administration was a well-oiled machine and everything was going

great. in that respect, he doesn't seem to have a total grip on some of the things that are going on very close to him and on issues of great political import. again, between the outright lies that the administration has told and outright lies that donald trump a has told, and the places where there are gaps of knowledge, it just raises a fundamental problem in terms of dealing with allies and in terms of dealing with the hill and the press, which is a giant credibility problem. >> i think that is an understatement at this point. i think the administration has been -- >> understatement is my middle name. >> no, listen. why are there no press briefings this week and not one today? because a lot of unanswered questions that they don't have answers for at the moment. for donald trump to repeatedly say he doesn't know about these things, at some point that is going to come back to haunt you when you go in front of the

american public and you claim you are telling the truth to them. look at what peter alexander said nobody had had a margin like that in the historic wins for himself. just factually untrue and easy thing to check. peter got up there and said these numbers are incorrect and trump was stunned. the first time i have seen him uncomfortable in his suit and not know what to say. ed, oh, those are the numbers they gave me as if it's okay for somebody else to feed him something that is not true. >> i think one of the most troubling to me is the navy s.e.a.l.'s death. if you're the president in a military operation that goes bad, it's never your fault? but it is your responsibility and you have to own that if you're the commander in chief. so to watch him kind of walk away and say it wasn't his fault is not appropriate. >> even though he framed it "they lost ryan." >> amid the scrutiny on jeff

sessions, top democrats are not pleased about how much information they are getting in briefings from james comey and the fbi about probes into russia. ranking member of house intel committee adam schiff will join us in a moment. we be right back. from the minute i wake up... ...i'm on... ...and on... ...and on. that's why i... ...make time for myself... ...and give my body some love... ...with aveeno® daily moisturizing lotion. its active naturals® oat formula... ...locks in moisture to improve skin wellness in just one day.

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he did not tell the whole truth and that is bad enough on its face, but for someone who, themselves, was a prosecutor and someone who themselves when they were a senator really made the high bar about making sure there was full disclosure from people who they were testifying before congress. he withheld information from a senate, a confirmation hearing when he was under oath and that to me is a serious, serious violation and it merits him resigning from his office. >> the fact that the attorney general, the top cop in our country, lied under oath to the american people is grounds for him to resign.

is grounds for him to resign. he has proved that he is unqualified and unfit to serve in that position. and an investigation will take us to the next place. but an investigation of those -- of those -- of those actions is definitely warranted. definitely warranted. i remind you that this congress impeached a president for something so far less, having nothing to do with his duties as president of the united states. >> joining us now here in new york is ranking member of the house select committee on intelligence, democratic congressman adam shf schiff. do you think jeff sessions should step ground? what do you make that argument? >> it's a conclusion i reached reluctantly. i found his explanation not credible. you don't, i think, treat a visit in your office by the

russian ambassador as something casual, something not memorable and when you're asked about your contacts with russians in the senate that should have been sglofed. i think he knew it should have been disclosed. in approving intent is one thing. i know you're asking senator king it. proving intent is one thing. you were asking, is it perjury? it's a hard thing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. that's not the standard here. it is can he carry out these responsibilities with the cloud hanging over him, with the breadth of the russian investigation that reaches many parts of the department. i don't think he can. i don't think we'll have the confidence of the decisions being made and the recusal is only partial. it would not cover mike flynn whose conduct in terms of his conversation went after the election as well as before. i don't think the recusal is enough. as corey booker was saying and i completely agree, judging him by his own standard, he didn't meet his own standard.

>> the attorney general said yesterday at the meeting, it was fairly routine. the ambassador sought a meeting with with him, jeff sessions took it, other staffers were in the room. are you bothered by the meeting or the failure to disclose it under oath? >> it is taking place at a time the russians are engaged to disrupt our election. he is one of the most prominent proxies for the president ahead of the national security team. the suggestion he was making over the last 24 hours that, no, he was met in his capacity as a member of the armed services committee, not credible. there's one reason kislyak went to see him. it has nothing to do with what the military is doing. it had to do with wanting to curb favor or learning from somebody. >> there are a couple ways the

question of recusal. a number of people say he should step down. put thag aside, there's the question of the investigation. so, do you think the administration, whoever steps in now, we have an acting deputy a.g., we'll have that eventually, are they able to conduct this investigation in a proper wii or we must have an independent council. how do we get there? that is the question, not a legal thing. what has to happen for that climate to, for the administration to feel like it has no choice but to go along? >> i think we are there already. these are the extraordinary circumstances where the public is not going to have confidence in someone that is not fully independent here. after all, these are allegations that concern the president's organization itself. so, i think we are there already. i also think part of the decision about whether you appoint a special prosecutor is have the facts to the point where you really have to look at

a potential criminal prosecution. in the case of flynn, we are at that point, where it has to be evaluated and somebody independent make that investigation. >> after the hearing yesterday, you came out and said you don't believe the fbi, director comey is giving you the amount of information he should be giving you guys. how do you get that information from the fbi, if they are not willing to give it? >> here is the thing. it's not that i thought his answers were incomplete or i didn't like them. with respect to the inquiry that is are jermaine to the investigation, he said i won't answer that question. look, he's going to go back to the department. he is committed to coming back to the committee. i hope when he comes back the committee has a different answer for us. we can't do our job if the fbi is going to tell us, we'll tell you about this, not that. we need to know what they have investigated, if anything, what leads have they chased down, what remains to be done. have they done an adequate job?

what do we need to investigate that they haven't? we can't do that without their cooperation. if they don't, we'll have to do other things, a subpoena is one of them. we can't represent to the american people we have done our job. >> is it why director comey is acting the way he is? >> i don't want to speak for him. i think the fbi always wrestles with their desire to make prosecutions and the needs of protecting the nation's security. my point of view, protecting the nation's security comes first. i'm a former prosecutor, i understand wanting to make sure witnesses aren't interviewed inconsistently. that is all in my view secondary to making sure our country is protected from foreign influence, efforts of extortion or blackmail, compromising material, any illegal

communications. we need to know the length andth of what russia has done. they will do it again to us. they are doing it in france, germany and elsewhere. the only way to inoculate ourselves is understand what they have done here. >> congressman adam schiff, great to have you with us here in new york. >> thank you. coming up, the questions that need to be answered after announcing the attorney general's recusal from the russian investigation. we'll talk to michael mcfall and former state department official, rick stengel and rand paul on the hunt for the obamacare replacement bill. he says it exists, it's just under lock and key. "morning joe" is coming back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ sfx: engine revving

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when did it know it? who is the russian ambassador in the center of this crisis? is he a diplomat or as many are saying in washington, d.c. today, a spy? are the democrats holding the administration accountable or once again overplaying their hand? good morning, it's friday, march 3rd. mika is under the weather this morning. she's recusing herself. along with willie and me, we have political analyst and executive producer and show host of it's a circus and nicholas. msnbc chief league correspondent ari is going to help us look into this and nbc news capitol hill correspondent, casey hunt. willie, once again, some big news. you think we are going to be talking this week about the president's speech, then yesterday morning, i got the sense we are going to spend the

next few days talking about an administration stone walling and not getting it. now, of course, jeff sessions followed the advice a lot of us had, get out there, recuse yourself, try to get that part of the story behind us. as we are saying, still a lot of unanswered questions. >> recusal is not enough for a lot of people, including nancy pelosi and leading democrats on the hill. our guests are saying he ought to resign. attorney general jeff sessions will stay in his job, but recuse himself from investigations into russia's attempts to influence the 2016 election. he's passing his role to acting deputy attorney general dana bente until president trump's nominee rod rosenstein can be confirmed. yesterday, sessions defended himself for not disclosing the meetings with the russian

ambassador. here is the exchange with al franken during the confirmation hearing, followed by what sessions sid yesterday. >> if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the trump campaign communicated with the russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do? >> senator franken, i'm not aware of any of those activities. i have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and i did not have communications with the russians. my reply to the question with senator franken was honest and correct as i understood it at the time. i appreciate that some have taken the view that this was a false comment. that is not my intent. that is not correct. i will write the judiciary committee, soon, today or tomorrow, to explain this testimony for the record.

>> attorney general sessions continued to defend what he answered to the judiciary committee in an interview with fox news. he said the recusal he announced was planned ahead of time. >> the national security adviser has to resign because of conversations he had and his capacity for a nonsurrogate for the campaign with the same ambassador. did anyone say, holy smokes, perhaps we should clarify this, it could be a problem. >> i never gave it a thought or considered it. no one ever mentioned it to me in quite different circumstances to me, unrelated. >> we had a full meeting a week or so ago and planned to have a meeting today. it was on our schedule to make a final decision about whether or not i should recuse myself. the reason i believe i should recuse myself is i was involved in the campaign. to a degree, i think it would

have been perceived that i wouldn't be objective in participating in an investigation that might involve the campaign. i do not confirm or deny any investigation. i felt like i should clear the air and we are moving toward that end before this latest flap. >> attorney general sessions gave that explanation to tucker and said during the press conference he answered the question the way he did because he was taken aback by the news. in hindsight he should have said i had these two meetings with the russian ambassador. >> yeah, john heilemann, some people are looking at the press conference and thought he did a pretty good job considering the tough circumstances that i spoke with. there are actually critics of the administration. there's still too many -- for me, there are too many tough questions about how you don't answer that question with a

simple yes i have. that's -- i just don't get that. i haven't heard anything to really explain that. >> i totally agree. his performance yesterday, if i had been advising him as his attorney, i'm not an attorney, but if i were, i would advise him not to give that performance given perjury. he said he didn't remember a whole bunch of things, which is a standard thing for people to do in legal situations like this. saying he remembered details of various exchanges he had with the russian ambassador, just not the one that is are currently at issue related to the campaign. he talked about a trip he took to the soviet union in the past and exchange of people of faith that came to the soviet union and so on. i think they are getting the timing of the meetings, given he traveled to the republican convention in cleveland on campaign money, not senate

office money, that's in the news this morning. given the second meeting took place when the question of russian hacking was so much in the news. the notion that he met with the russian ambassador and we also know one of the things he spoke about at the cleveland convention was the campaign. there are a lot of questions here. there's a lot about his press conference yesterday that i think raise more questions than they answer and it rings to a normal person listening to this, remembering the circumstances and the timing, there's a lot about the things jeff sessions said that do not ring true. >> ari, i had a professor, dr. pearson at the university of florida. he would say construct the greatest argument you can construct and then before you go into the courtroom, as you are getting ready in the morning, deliver the most difficult part of your argument to the jury

into the mirror. if you start laughing at yourself, it doesn't pass the straight face test and you have to go back. you have to start it all over again. there just are some parts of this testimony or his testimony and then the statement that just don't seem to pass the straight face test. but, can he continue repeating them and avoid any possible perjury charges? >> well, on the legal threshold for perjury, that is probably his best piece of this because, as you know from being in congress, while this is often raised, actual indictable action based on a misstatement or falsehood to congress is relatively rare. it's a high bar. it's meaningful or willful deceit. before he made the news of saying he would recuse, at the top of the presser, he said he certainly didn't mean to or

intend to deceive. in other words, even if i said something that wasn't true, i didn't mean that. that's a proactive defense to perjury. just because it's a high bar, joe, it's probably an area where he was in less jeopardy although this looks bad. you have the other layers here. what happened with russia during the campaign? a big question. then why did you say things that now don't add up? were they false at the time or memory problems? that's the point you were raising, joe. then third, the heart of the matter, what is the legal process and independence? that goes to another headline here, a lot of headlines, what jumped out on the fox news interview was, basically, the attorney general saying, hey, i'm going to recuse myself from anything up to election day, but not necessarily after. here is what he said last night. >> does your recusal extend to, say, an investigation into the leaks that led to the departure of general flynn? >> these things have to be

decided on a case-by-case basis. anytime anything comes up connectioned to the campaign, i would be recused because i made that clear. if something else comes up not related to the campaign, we would go through the same process as i committed to the senate and what i have done. that is to see if there's a reason i should not be involved in the case. >> right. >> i think i performed exactly correctly for an attorney general of the united states. >> the key headline there being, joe, that is the attorney general saying he's stepping aside but only up to election day. let's not prejudge. i'm not saying we know whether there's mall fee sense or not, we don't. we know the fbi was talking to general flynn and others about activities after election day. he made a point of going independent, then does an interview saying i'm not independent as to all these other things the fbi is looking at. >> more reports this morning of

meetings of other trump campaign people meeting with the same ambassador. let me go to casey hunt on capitol hill. democrats yesterday holding a press conference, falling all over each other calling for the resignation of jeff sessions. they got the recusal, not the resignation. what are they going to continue to push for here? where does it go next? >> reporter: the reality is democrats are limited in what they can do. they can make a lot of noise. there was pressure on them to go farther than they had. keep in mind, chuck schumer called for the recusal weeks ago. they had to come out and say something else considering all this new evidence came to light. there was variation. schumer was more measured than nancy pelosi, the house leader who said sure, we should talk about the penalties for perjury. if you are a normal citizen, could land you in jail. i think there's a little bit of danger for democrats on this

particlair thing, if they go so far as to overplay their hand. a lesson we learned in the 2016 election is americans are sick of foul outrage, if you will. they want somebody who is willing to dispense with that, put it all out there. i think, you know, democrats being outraged where they don't have a solid case, i think up to this ree kuzal, suddenly the facts became clear, it became clear the jeff sessions version of the facts was not presented correctly to the committee. so, the action needed to be taken. now, i think going forward, all of ari's points are valid, but the path is less clear. next, we get the president's reaction to this, standing by jeff sessions and democrats calls for resignation as a witch hunt. >> republicans struggle to get on the same page with how to repeal and replace obamacare. rand paul wants to see the pages of the plan. he joins us live in a few minutes. you are watching "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." before the break, we were talking about the fallout from jeff sessions news conference yesterday and president trump responded to questions about the attorney general hours before sessions announced his recusal. >> mr. president, do you have confidence in the attorney general? >> total. >> recused himself from investigation in russia. >> i don't think so. >> when did you learn he spoke to the ambassador? when were you aware he spoke to the russian ambassador? >> i wasn't aware. >> when did you find out? >> he probably did. >> that was aboard the "gerald r. ford" yesterday. after the news conference, he released a news statement saying quote, jeff sessions is an

honest man. he didn't say anything wrong. he could have stated it more accurately. this is a way of saving face for democrats losing an election everyone thought they were supposed to win. the democrats are overplaying their hand. they lost their election and now their grip on reality. the story is the illegal leaks of classified and other information. it is a total witch hunt, a statement from the president of the united states. >> sounds like you wrote that. >> yeah, the exclamation and everything. >> it feels like a statement was a statement of the person who claims to be making it. >> to make the obvious point, here we was out there, the president, saying the attorney general should not recuse himself, hours later, the attorney general does. that's not how it's supposed to work. the president made an unforced error and undermined what he was trying to show. >> the last time he stood behind somebody, rock solid, 100%, it

was mike flynn and he was gone 48 hours later. the fake news reality the president is talking about, a few days ago, it was contacts. then after that, well, there was a meeting, but not about the election. after that, well, there was a meeting, but it was a light, you know, discussion about the election. it keeps changing, which is not good for them. >> joe, if you look at the statement from president trump, he dismisses the entire question of russia, not just the jeff sessions. it's a cover for democrats trying t explain why they lost an election. from his point of vu, we shouldn't be looking at the russia question. >> maybe we wouldn't be looking at it quite so much if people who worked for him in the administration didn't keep lying about meeting ambassadors that they had every right to meet. if you have a national security adviser who lies about a phone call he's having with a russian adviser when he has every right

to make that phone call, you have to scratch your head and say, well, what's going on that would make him lie about something he could have told the truth about just as easily. then you have the attorney general who appears to have lied with a basic question about meeting with russians when he wasn't even asked if he met with russians. he volunteered the fact he was part of the campaign and never met with russian officials. yet, he met with an ambassador twice. john heilemann, as you point out, the first time, it was a campaign that paid his expenses to get out and meet with the russian ambassador and the second time what in the world could explain a man as smart as jeff sessions who can remember trips to moscow and can remember things that happened back in

1986 in hearings. remember the finite details of conversations he had when he was or wasn't telling a joke in 1981 or '82 or '83. he can recall things in his testimony that he did and did not say from 40 years ago, and yet, he doesn't remember a conversation with the russian ambassador, which is unusual in the first place, i can tell you that as a member of the house armed services committee. we didn't have ambassadors meeting us. that was what the foreign affairs guys and women did. but, he can't remember that unusual meeting when the issue of russia is on the front pages of every newspaper, them trying to hacknd impact our election? is there any explanation to that? >> i cannot think of one that seems plausible, especially in this context. we have reporting in the last 24 hours about the members of the

arms committee. as far as i know, at this moment, there's not a single one except claire mccaskill that met with the russian ambassador once. there's no one else, including john mccain who met with the russian ambassador, right? so, here is the circumstance with the first meeting. the russian ambassador is at the republican convention, meeting with jeff sessions, the first u.s. senator to endorse donald trump. one of donald trump's most prominent spokes people, backers, for a long time, the only member of the united states senate with donald trump. those circumstances, the idea that the russian ambassador was going to meet with him was to discuss anything other than donald trump's campaign, the prospect donald trump might become president of the united states, political matters. it does not ring remotely true there's a plausible alternative explanation, given the facts, the timing the circumstances.

i'm not saying it's impossible. i can't think of an argument how it makes sense other than there's at least a minimum shading of the truth on his part and something much worse. >> coming up on "morning joe," a look at the other man at the sender of all this, sergey when morning snow continues. this is the story of green mountain coffee and fair trade, told in the time it takes to brew your cup. let's take a trip to la plata, colombia.

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let's look at these questions surrounding jeff sessions because they center around russia's ambassador, sergey kislyak. we are looking closer at this guy. who is the man who is suddenly on the front page of newspapers. >> well known as a fixture in washington, d.c. let's look at his bio. 66 years old. he has an elder daughter. he joined the foreign ministry in 1977. a lot of posts are high profile posts, especially the deputy foreign minister posting. since 2008, he's been the ambassador. let's look at the jeff sessions chronology. this is what everybody is focussed on. the big question here is, why not on january 10th say i met

with the russian ambassador because that's who you talk to when you are worried there's meddling in the election and hacking. the best anecdote of the day, vodka related from politico. russia's fortress embassy on wisconsin avenue north of gorgetown neighborhood, elegant, the functions may reveal hints of russia's economic malaise. they served kirkland vodka, the brand sold at costco. >> maybe its russian costco vodka. >> why are we snobby about costco vodka? >> i love costco, don't get me started. general flynn, jared kushner meeting at trump tower. this was a point of contact for people inside the trump campaign. >> of all the names in the story, the american side and the russian side, the one person

doing their job better than anyone else was the russian ambassador. he was getting to the people you need to talk to. his main job is gauging the trump administration and what, potentially is going to change. he gave a recent interview to our local affiliate in washington, d.c. they throw a yearly ball there. take a listen to the sound. >> you know, one of the russian/american relations is the interaction between the societies. you know we have always kept doors for elections open. the previous administration, the new administration. we are interested to build a productive and useful relation for both countries. >> a man who never closes doors. >> cal perry, fascinating, appreciate it. more inside as to how the russian ambassador operating

inside circles. he says kislyak is good at making contacts with a wide variety of americans in and out of government, including with the opposition. mcfaul would know. "morning joe," coming back after this. what powers the digital world? communication.

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are there any ties between mr. trump, you or your campaign and putin and his regime? >> no, there are not. it's absurd. you know, there's no basis to it. >> i hear people saying it like it's a fact on television. it's not only inaccurate and false, but dangerous. >> can you say 100% confidence nobody in this campaign had conversations with russia during the campaign? >> no, i'm just telling you, it's phony baloney garbage. >> did any adviser have contact with the russians trying to meddle in the election?

>> of course not. >> i had nothing to do with russia. to the best of my knowledge, no person i deal with -- >> i think russia's involvement in activity has been investigated up and down. how many people have to say there's nothing there before you realize there's nothing there. >> i don't remember a lot of it. i remember saying i had gone to russia with a church group in 1991. he said he was not a believer himself, but he was glad to have church people come there. indeed, i thought he was pretty much of an old style soviet type ambassador. so, we talked a little bit about terrorism, as i recall. somehow the subject of ukraine came up. i had the ukrainian ambassador in my office the day before to listen to him. nothing that russia had done nut thag was wrong in any area and everybody else was wrong with

regard to the ukraine. it got to be a bit of a testy conversation at that point. most of these ambassadors are pretty gossipy. this was a campaign season. i don't remember any specific political discussions. >> so, if you are scoring at home, months of denials from the trump campaign and administrative officials denying contact with russians during the campaign. then jeff sessions recalling portions of his conversation with the russian ambassador during the campaign and other parts are hazy. more revelations between people in the trump campaign and the ambassador. nbc news confirmed with the white house that "the new york times" was first to report flynn and kushner participated in a meeting with ambassador kislyak last year at trump tower. then j.d. gordon and paige spoke

to the ambassador on the sidelines of the republican national convention. it's not unknown what they discussed, it's not unusual to meet diplomats at conventions. it contradicts the months of denials of the campaign staff with the russian government. we are back with political analyst john heilemann. i think there's so much more to you. nbc's katy tur is with us as well. joining the conversation rick stengel and professor of political science and director for the institute of national studies at stanford university. good morning all. ambassador, let me start with you. you are qualified to talk about everything that's been going on the last 48 hours or so. do you find it unusual, we could put the testimony of jeff sessions under oath to decide, but do you find it unusual at all that the russian ambassador would seek a meeting with a

member of the armed services committee? >> do i find it unusual he would seek a meeting with the member? the answer is -- it's unusual to meet with a generic senator on that committee. but, most certainly, it's not unusual for ambassador kes l kislyak to meet with senator sessions. he was a close confident of donald trump. i have dealt with with kislyak for many years. he would try to get information to inform his government about a possible future trump administration. that's exactly what he was doing. >> what do you think the meeting would look like? obviously you don't have details, you weren't in the room, but what would the meeting look like? >> like senator sessions said, finally, you know, ambassador kislyak is going to want to know the policy on ukraine. he's going to want to know, for

instance, donald trump, as a candidate said he would look into recognizing crimea as part of the russian federation, it was annexed by russia. i'm sure kislyak ask first-degree that's the policy moving forward. let's remember, back then, we didn't know which job senator sessions was going to have. at some point he's talked about as being secretary of defense. mr. kislyak was doing his job trying to inform the government about a possible future administration. >> ambassador, mcfaul, it's john heilemann here. a lot of stuff has been said over the last 36 hours about whether or not he is a spy, whether he is friendly with spies, about his work in washington to recruit assets. what do you know about that? >> what i know, i can't comment on. but, i would say a different thing.

i, obviously have been watching the debate. it's to say, even in our system, too, i worked five years in the u.s. government. i worked closely with intelligence officials. diplomats gather intelligence like intelligence officers do. i think we are making too big of a deal about it if he worked for the kgb. he worked for the russian government. he worked for vladimir putin. he was doing his job in gathering information, including meeting with the opposition. for me, i have to tell you, it's a bit of a double standard here. when i was ambassador and i dared meet with the opposition, it would have been page one news. in our country, we allow that to happen. it's what kislyak was doing. >> they have confirmed comments from russia's foreign minister. here is what it is. for the situation around russian/american relations and the contacts our ambassador was making and continue to make, i can say one thing, ambassadors

are appointed to maintain relations with the host country. i can't help cite a post. it looks like a witch hunt or like the times of mccarthyism, which we believed were long over in the united states, a civilized country. that's in response to president trump's response last night which trump called the entire story, quote, a total witch hunt. you are shaking your head. >> yeah, i'm shaking my head. i'll defer to mike on this. his point about the distinction about a difference to the russians, every ambassador engages in espionage. the degree to which russian ambassadors engage is different than russian ambassadors or american ambassadors. he's not running joes out of the embassy. this is the implication he has on listening devices. he's a diplomat. it's conventional diplomacy. he is doing a little bit of

espionage more than an american ambassador. every ambassador has some aspect of what they do that involves espionage, the russians do it more. >> talking about the coincidences and the times this administration and the campaign and the transition is involved with this particular russian ambassador, does all of it, in total, seem odd to you? >> yes. we are leaving out one giant fact that we have to remember that was happening during this entire period. that is russian intelligence was stealing data from the dnc, publishing data from the dnc to influence the elections. had that not been happening, this might seem more innocent. that was happening in realtime while the meetings are going on. let me add one other thing. i worked on the obama campaign, the obama transition. i was the russia guy at the

time. comparatively, we did not have all these meetings with kislyak, not during the campaign, not during the transition and not during the conventions. you know, i don't remember our senior national security team sitting down with any ambassador, most certainly not kislyak during the convention. >> ke i'm going to ask you a question, but it's really a statement posing as a question. so, basically, as you suggest, this is a cyber attack on the united states and on the united states sovereignty. why wouldn't we invoke article v this was a cyber attack on the united states and we want the aide of other countries and nato and why wouldn't mrs. ameriiss that? >> the obama administration clearly did not want to frame it

as an attack during the campaign and most certainly people in the clinton campaign are very upset about that fact. second, the idea of a cyber attack being an article v commitment is ambiguous. the asewn yans were attacked in 2007. when they tried to frame it that way, nato decided they did not want to go to war with russia over a cyber attack. make no mistake, we haven't figured out the rules of the road and what to do going forward. most certainly, we have done nothing to prepare us to be more prepared for the next electoral cycle. i hope some day we will get to that part of the policy debate. >> straight out of that answer, i'll ask this question. you were at the state department when it was going on. there was a report in the new yorker on the new cold war that suggests your boss, john kerry, while this was happening was beating on the president's door saying right now we need a 9/11

style commission while this election is going on. we need to envok it now, call them together and investigate this in a serious way. talk about the deliberations within the state department that led kerry to make that request and what happened on the other end of the phone, problem's phone when he did? >> i don't know about the other end of the phone. i can confirm that the secretary did make that request. it was a memo from the policy planning staff from the state department from nsc to say we need an independent 9/11-style commission. the other thing the new yorker piece touches on is the state department itself was invaded by cyber attacks by russia and breached by cyber attks by russia. one ing we learned is the state department, itself, was under attack by sources. 200,000 or 300,000 attacks a day. the russians are most sophisticated. they did breach the state

department at certain points. this is, again, go back to the conversation with mike, i would argue that article v needs to be rewritten to include cyber attacks. ang us king said if they came in and went to the dnc and stole hard drives, we would think it's an attack. that's e enshlly what they did. >> before i let you go, put a bow on this for us. a lot of smoke there, a lot of suspicious meetings. do you suspect based on what you know and the information you were able to gather, there was a collusion between the russian government and trump campaign? >> i don't know. i'm not prepared to speculate that. that's exactly what we need to know. at the end of the day whar, wha business ties were. all that is peripheral. your question is central. i'm convinced the only way we are going to get a real answer to that is if we have an independent commission that we can have leakers become

witnesses and finally know the truth. >> ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you for your time this morning. as always, let's turn to business and snapchat's first day of trading. dominic chu joins us. how did the ipo look yesterday? >> successful. we are talking $34 billion. that's how much social media platform snapchat is worth in the public market. they sold 200 million shares, 17 bucks a piece and the investing public got involved. the stock rose up to close at $24.48. that's a 44% rise in the value in one day. the video messaging app that has a mass market appeal to teens is yet to turn a profit and could be years from doing so. we have breaking news in just the last few moments, guys. we should note here, nbc universal, the parent company of msnbc and cnbc said it invested half a billion dollars in snap

inc during the ipo process. they plan on doing more content. this follows on big investment like buzz feed in the past. we are looking to see if they carry on. more news on that front. lyft looking to raise money to better compete with uber. according to "the wall street journal," it could seek $500 million in new funding to allow them to run. it could be a way to capitalize in a string of internal issues at uber involving sexual harassment and the stealing allegations they stole self-driving car technology from google. caterpillar, big focus today. the facilities were rated in illinois by officials in the commerce department and regulators as well. they are looking for evidence of a subsidiary. they are o cop cooperating with the investigation.

>> thanks so much. he says the republican bill to replace obacare does exist but his own party leaders don't want him to see it. senator rand paul next on "morning joe." so how old do you want to be when you retire? uhh, i was thinking around 70. alright, and before that? you mean after that? no, i'm talking before that. do you have things you want to do before you retire? oh yeah sure... ok, like what? but i thought we were supposed to be talking about investing for retirement? we're absolutely doing that. but there's no law you can't make the most of today. what do you want to do? i'd really like to run with the bulls. wow. yea. hope you're fast. i am. get a portfolio that works for you now and as your needs change. investment management services from td ameritrade.

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house republican leadership keeping the plan to replace obamacare a secret. he said i have been told the house obama care bill is under lock and key in a secure location and not available for me or the public to view. this is unacceptable. this is a bigger issue before congress and the american people right now. what is the house leadership trying to hide? i demand the house release the text of the bill. every elected official and every american deserve to know what they are trying to do. well, we are going to get to senator rand paul in a moment. first, a quick look at some of the ground we have already covered this friday morning. >> i have now decided to recuse myself. >> recusal is not enough for a lot of people. >> there are parts of this testimony that just don't seem to pass the straight face test. >> the president saying that the attorney general should not recuse himself, hours later the attorney general does. that's not how it's supposed to

work. >> the last time he stood by somebody 100% was mike flynn. >> sessions doesn't get the benefit of the doubt anymore. >> it's in the interest of the president to get this out. the more they get out, the better it is going to be. >> it's not unusual for ambassador kislyak to meet with senator sessions. he would try to get information about a possible future trump administration. >> he released a statement, it is a total witch hunt. all this looks very much like a witch hunt. stk commander in chief aligned his statements with the russians. >> just another cabinet member. this is the political sole of his administration. >> reporter: the democrats are limited in what they can do. >> the only way to restore trust and credibility is answer our questions under oath. >> can he carry out his responsibilities with this cloud hanging over him? i don't think he can. >> kushner and carter paige.

we have a list of known contacts between the trump campaign and russia. >> just until a reporter catches them in a lie. is that what to expect from this administration. >> these aren't the droids you are looking for. they go on by. >> let's go to capitol hill and talk to a member of the foreign relations committee, republican senator rand paul of kentucky. also nbc news capitol hill correspondent, casey hunt rejoins the conversation as well. senator, you know in 1993, hillary clinton came under a lot of fire for keeping her health care task force secret. republicans, "the wall street journal," conservative interest groups went crazy saying something that accounted for 1/7 of america's economy shouldn't be kept under lock and key. you are say thag's exactly what the house republican committees are doing now. tell us about it. >> you know, when i read that it was being kept in a secure location, in a secret room and

only members of the committee could read it, hmmm, i became suspicious and it made me want to read it more. we should all read it. i have the feeling it's going to go through house committees, kept secret until it gets to them, then come to the senate, but not any committees and the question is, will it be amendable? will we be told hurry up and pass it? take it or leave it? i'm getting the impression it's take it or leave it. the problem i have, the bill has several components of obamacare. keeps the cadillac tax, but renames it, starts a new entitlement program, refundable tax credits and keeps the individual mandate. this is interesting. the republicans complained about the individual mandate. the new individual mandate will be pay your penalty not to the government, you are going to be forced to pay a penalty to the insurance company. it's still a mandate, an individual mandate.

>> senator, it makes perfect sense if you are trying to pass an unpopular bill to keep it hidden. then, as you said, just shove it in front of the member's faces, give them 30, you know, 30 minutes to read it or a half day to read it. it may make sense in terms of jamming a bill through congress, but it's a terrible idea, obviously, when it comes to health care. when it comes to the safety and security of republican members. you and i through the years have seen it all the time. the bigger the bill, the more pork there is in it, the more things they want to hide the closer they hold it. they give it to you and it's up or down vote. it puts members in a terrible position. >> we had consensus a year ago on a clean repeal. that's what i'm advocating. vote on a clean repeal. if there are big government replacement ideas, big govern

republicans can work with democrats to pass spending proposals if they think that's what replacement is. if they want conservatives on board, we can vote tomorrow on a clean repeal. then, if they want to do a fancy new government program and big taxes, cadillac tax, taxing health insurance policies, they can work with democrats to pass those. it should be a separate proposal. if they want conservatives, they have to do a clean repeal like we did a year ago. >> casey hunt, obviously very strange scene yesterday as a republican senator is locked out of a republican committee hearing room on the house. what are you hearing on the hill? >> reporter: it was quite the scene yesterday, i have to give a little credit where credit is due for that, joe. there were, at one point dogs up vol ved running up and down the stairs. other democrats got in on the action. this is something where there are and senator paul was, i think, referring to republicans

who are concerns about doing just a straight up repeal bill because there are a lot of people who would come under enormous stress in their states and they are worried about owning the political consequences. if they go home and they are going to repeal it and not offer anything in return, that's a problem. my question for you, senator paul, are you ready to be the person that prevents republicans from doing anything about health care because it seems to me, if you push forward the way you are, it's entirely possible that the repeal and replace could run into significant trouble and that you might end up with nothing at the end of the day. >> i think there's actually a way out of this. we all agreed on complete repeal about a year ago. if we vote on that separate from the replacement, i have a replacement bill, so do others, vote on several alternatives on the same day as repeal. i'm not advocating that we do nothing.

i'm actually a big advocate the last two months saying we should replace on the same day. that's what i talked to president trump about and he advocates for, also. we difr within the republican and democrat party what it should be. we consistently agreed on repeal. vote on complete repeal separately and the same day vote on a variety of proposals on replacement. >> all right, senator rand paul of kentucky. thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. good luck getting into that room. >> thanks. let's talk about what we learned today. we have a minute left. john heilemann, let's go to you for a quick response. what did you learn today? >> this set is so much sadder and less fun when you are not here, joe. >> that's not nice. i'm sitting next to you. >> i don't believe it. katy tur, what did you learn? >> there are a lot of questions that need answers. right now, the answers are not going to come out unless there is a special prosecutor. >> rick?

>> i think article v should be revised as something that triggers a defense agreement of nato. >> all right. casey, what did you learn? >> i think jeff sessions has a lot of questions to answer so far. joe? >> thank you, casey. thank you everybody. there are a lot of questions being asked today for good reason. it seems like everything that the trump administration has said the last month about contacts with russians may not be true. well, that's all the time we have for this morning and this week. thank you so much for being with with us. let's stick around and get more news coverage from stephanie ruhle. stephanie? what are you looking at today? >> so, so much. breaking news overnight. president trump firing back, calling accusations against his attorney general a total witch hunt as jeff sessions speaks out in a new inte