facebook page. now "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. caught. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington, where i've never seen anything like this amateur hour at work now. remember how i talk about rolling disclosure where you only get the truth from a politician when it leaks out through the press, how you can't believe their initial stories because they won't tell you the truth unless they're forced to? well, here we go with the latest buffoonery from the trump operation. remember how sean spicer, the president's press secretary said that if congressman nun res got that info he brought to the white house from the white house, it wouldn't pass the smell test. well, let's watch that exchange. >> when you rule out that the white house or anyone in the

trump administration gave chairman nunes that information? >> i don't know what he actually briefed the president on, but i n'ow why he would come up to brief the presidentn something we gave hi i'm not aware of it, but it doesn't really pass the smell test. >> hold your nose. first we got news from the white house is precisely where the house intelligence chairman got that info he thought would be helpful to the president. today the new york times reported that a pair of white house staffers played a role in giving the chairman that info. according to the times today, one of those officials was ezra cohen-watnick, the senior director for intelligence at the national security council. he was brought in by the way by former national security adviser michael flynn. flynn's replacement, h.r. mcmaster tried to fire the guy. sources tell nbc news that president trump himself overrode him and kept this guy aboard. clearly trump is looking out for him. the other official was michael ellis, a lawyer, who formerly

works for nunes himself at the house intelligence committee. nbc has not confirmed that yet, however. according to the new york sometimes story, matthew rosenberg, cohen-watnick began reviewing reports shortly after president trump's wiretapping tweet. >> we're told that he began to look for this intelligence or -- found it after mr. trump tweeted about being surveilled by the obama administration. there's some disagreement among our officials. one who is saying this is part of an effort to find a post-fac tow justification for the tweets. another saying they were doing a review of how tejsz is shared in the white house and they came across this information. >> today confidentially sean spicer told reporters a letter was sent to the heads of the intelligence committees inviting them to look at new information. >> a letter was transmitted just recently to the ranking member and chairman of the house and

senate intelligence committees that said, in the ordinary course of business, national security staff discovered documents that we believe are in response to your march 15th, 2017 letter to intelligence community seeking, quote, documents necessary to determine whether information collected on u.s. persons was mishandled and leaked, end quote. >> well, spicer declined to answer questions about "the new york times" report i just gave you or the timing of the letter the white house sent today. here he is. >> i know you won't identify congressman nunes' sources, but isn't it abundantly clear that at least some white house officials had to be involved in him getting information here because they would need to help him access the complex? >> um, i cannot get into who those individuals were. >> right, but it was someone at the white house? >> again, if i start going down the path of confirming and denying one thing, that we're going down a very slippery slope. i've made my position very clear on that. >> that's why you have press conferences buddy, to answer

questions. a short time later, adam schiff said the timing of the letter concerned him. he said his office received it effectively simultaneously when spicer announced it during the press conference. meaning it was after "the new york times" story broke. an assessment came from freedom caucus who tried to defend nunes this morning on msnbc. let's watch. >> are you concerned at all that he was viewing what he said was classified information at the white house, then reported it back to the white house? >> well, you got to keep in mind who he works for. he works for the president. he answers to the president. >> does he, or does he work for the constituents of his district? >> well, you do both. but when you're in that capacity, if you've got information, i -- i'm okay with what he did. >> there's a congressman saying that his fellow republican congressman works for the president. he's supposed to be investigating. anyway, a spokesman for congressman yoho later said he

misspoke. i'd say he did. some should read a civics book. more breaking news, "the wall street journal" reports that mike flynn has told the fbi and congressional officials he's willing to be interviewed in exchange for criminal immunity. that's good. nbc investigative report ken da lanian joins us right now. this thing, i say rolling disclosurement you can't trust trump and a rot lot of politici because they don't tell you anything up front. he supposedly got some information and brought it to the white house. then we find out he got it from the white house the night before when he snuck in there. now we're finding out two white house staffers, one who used to work for him and one who is close to trump gave him this stuff. >> that's right, chris. >> that's why they hate news. they don't hate fake news. they live a fake existence. they hate news. >> what today did was explode the myth that somehow nunes had a whistle-blower, like an edward snowden who somehow gave him this information over the transom. he went to the white house, a

secure room in the white house where only white house officials have access first of all. so nbc news has not confirmed these two particular gentlemen were the people who gave him the stuff -- the. >> new york times has. that's a start. >> we've been hearing these names as likely suspects for days, chris, and they are among the few people who have access to this very sensitive information. don't forget. this is about the names of americans, so it's not everybody over at the nsc who can look this stuff up on the computer. >> isn't it transparentally a masquerade to have a congressman legally investigating the president of the united states on whether his connections with russia during the campaign heading to the white house, apparently at the bidding of the people down there, grabbing some material he said was important to help the president out politically, which he said at the time, and then going to the white house the next morning as if he hadn't been there the night before. that is a masquerade. >> the president said he felt someone vindicated by this. >> alley-oop. >> they could have done what they did today, issue a letter, say, hey, we found these documents. let everybody look at them. maybe there is some

inappropriate sharing of intelligence information. >> tell me about these two fellows, first of all. >> they're both -- they're young. one is 30. the other is 32. young staffers in very big jobs actually with access to very sensitive information. ezra cohen-watnick is a mike flynn acolyte who was put in that position by the former national security adviser. he's now in charge of the -- >> trump saved his job. >> trump saved his job. nbc news has confirmed h.r. mcmaster wanted to move him from that position. he's not well regarded by many people at the cia, we're told. and michael ellis is a naval intelligence officer in the reserves and a lawyer. >> ex-nunes official. >> he worked for nunes. he worked for the house intelligence committee just weeks ago, chris. >> thank you very much, ken, for coming on. >> good to be with you. i'm joined right now by senator mark warner, the ranking member of the senate intelligence committee. today the committee held its first open hearing on the russian investigation. senator warner, what do you make

of this offer by michael flynn, the general, to testify if he gets immunity from your committee. would you open be to a deal like that. >> chris, i know that story just broke. richard burr and i have agreed we're not going to comment on specific witnesses, what we will do or won't do. obviously the names have been mentioned we'll want to talk to at the appropriate time. the only specific individual we've indicated we'll be bringing in but not in the immediate future is jared kushner. >> let me ask you about the decision by the white house to release to you, as ranking democrat on the senate intelligence committee, some materials which many people believe are the materials given to the chairman of the house committee that tuesday night when he went to the eob at the white house. >> well, i would say frankly it's about time because democrats and republicans alike on the senate side are still in the dark about what these so-called materials are. the white house said to come down, and we said, no, bring

those materials up here to the capitol because if they are intelligence committee materials, we are used to dealing with sensitive documents and sensitive information, and it needs to be done here. we've got a responsibility as the legislative branch in terms of oversight of this administration, and it would be very, i think, inappropriate to be traveling down there to look at those documents. and candidly, talking to a number of people within the intel community, there's still a lot of folks saying they don't know what those documents are as well. >> what do you make of this sean spicer comment the other day that it doesn't pass the smell test, that somebody -- the chairman of the house intelligence committee would go down to the white house, get a briefing on some material, then come back to the white house the next day acting like he had some news to bring to the white house when he had actually gotten it from the white house? now, sean spicer said that kind of behavior, that masquerade, wouldn't pass the smell test. what do you make of it? >> well, the whole episode -- and i shouldn't be commenting on the house side. they've got their own investigation, but it's frankly been bizarre, and i can't

explain it. but it looks more and more like press reports and other reports coming out as that sounds exactly like what happened. >> do you think that the senate committee is the committee we should watch, that the house committee has gotten to be so discredited by that behavior by the chairman that we really can't rely on independence? i member of congress from florida by the way, ted yoho, referred to the chairman of that committee as a guy working for donald trump today in an interview. that's what he said. he works for trump. what do you make of that? >> well, i'm not going to comment about the house. they've got their own challenges. i do know that i'm proud of the way that chairman burr and all the members of this committee are actually working together in a bipartisan way. we had a press conference yesterday. we had a very, i think, thorough hearing today. it came out again, complete validation of all the witnesses and maybe the president's the only person that doesn't accept this, that the russians were responsible for hacking into the dnc, hacking into john podesta,

they they were responsible for spreading vast amounts of fake news where these paid internet trolls in a sense send up so much information and flood the zone and then shape the narrative around fake news that then arises higher on your twitter or other kind of news feeds, facebook news feeds. and actually a couple of the witnesses said part of the reason some of those -- that fake news got so much attention was then-candidate trump actually repeated some of those outlandish statements. >> so what do you make of the testimony to that effect, where there was sort of an alley-oop play going on where they would feed it into fake news, then trump and his people would then use that to expand their political campaign, work hand in glove. what did you think? >> again, that's one of the things that this investigation has to look at. but one of the things that also came out of the testimony is that russians, when they -- part of their doctrine is to sow

social discontent. it's to try to split apart countries, try to destroy the democratic process. if you look at the 2016 election, it was president one of the ones -- i know you as a historian of presidential elections, chris. this is not one we're going to write back that said reached to the level of debate of, say, kennedy-nixon back in 1960. >> do you think they're going after the french election now? >> absolutely. absolutely. i mean you've got what appears to be almost not even trying to hide it, direct financial assistance to marie le pen, the far right-wing candidate. then you've had the kind of misinformation and disinformation that really is the kind of personal attacks on what i think every member of the committee at least realizes is not only can this be false information, but the russians can actually go ahead and break into your device and plant fake news like child pornography, which they've done in certain other countries. then they call the media and say you've got to check out chris

matthews, x kwlrks z. the usualens didn't do this because they like republicans. the russians did this because they thought it was in their advantage, and it was going to hurt our country. so everybody needs to be worried about this no matter where you fall on the political spectrum because they'll be back in 2018 if we don't have better defenses and, frankly, aren't willing to strike back. >> we're going to be watching. the committee is doing important work. senator mark warner, thank you, sir. >> thank you, chris. >> that senate hearing today, clinton watts, a former fbi special agent was asked why vladimir putin thought he could get away with meddling in our election. here's his response. let's watch. >> part of the reason active measures have worked in this u.s. election is because the commander in chief has used russian active measures at time against his opponents. on 14 august, 2016, his campaign chairman, after a debunked -- >> when you say his, who is his? >> paul manafort cited a

terrorist attack on cnn and used it as a talking about. on 11 october, president trump stood on stage and cited what appears to be a fake news story from sputnik news that disappeared from the sbnts. he denies the intel from the united states about russia. he claims that the election could be rigged. that was the number-one theme pushed by rt sput number news outlets all the way up until the election. i can tell you right now today gray outlets that are soviet-pushing accounts tweet at president trump during high volumes when they know he's online, and they push conspiracy theories. >> i'm joined now by clinton watts. it's powerful stuff to see the way you put together the dishonest, fake news they're putting out of moscow and the rapidity with which the trump people took advantage of it. it's like they're working hand in glove. >> right. it's a circular system. at points they'll put out fake or manipulated truths that the

campaign will pick up and use against their political opponent. and then vice versa. if the trump campaign or now the trump administration makes a false claim, the russian propaganda lines will pick that up and duplicate it as well. >> the reseptemberability of the trump campaign impresses me. they go to go to sputnik. they know where to go to pick up this russian help. >> i think the question is is this coordinated or opportunistic? on one hand you could say they must have worked together hand and glove. i think more likely it was just opportunism, but why would you look to a russian news outlet as your source of information to batter your political opponent? that doesn't make sense. we tend to rely on traditional media outlets because they're vetted. there's facts behind them. there's editorial process. >> what do you think the russians are up to right now because it's hard to read putin. on one hand he says he wants a reproach manhattan with the west like we had during gorbachev's time or during yet sin's time. he says he wants that. at the same time he's trying to

ruin our democracy. >> it's an appealing argument. if you look at the trend over the last year and a half, support for russia in the united states has increased -- >> on the right? >> on the right predominantly, 20 to 25%. if you've manipulated that audience and then you start talking about peace, they're more likely to buy into it. when you get rid of nato, when you get rid of the eu, when you december trois these alliances, now russia can go one to one with the populations they've already manipulated in these countries and say, i want peace. let's work it out but -- >> finlandize them. >> and they've put together a very good system that the u.s. and all western countries should look at about how they educate their population about news sources, how they younify together to protect their government. >> putin is a man of the right, and i grew up when russia was a left-wing country. it was a communist company, capital state. and i watch him, and the way he talked about america today, our country, he said it's a powerful country. like that's all he respects

about us. >> right. >> not that we're a good country. we're generous, not anything like that. not that we have good values or true democracy. but he does respect power. he wants to have a bunch of powerful countries, china, him, and us duking it out for grabbing the world. it's like he wants to get back before there was any kind of international civil behavior, grab what you can. get out of my way if i'm doing it. >> it's not about people and helping people become the best they can be. it's about how do you control people? how do you manipulate resources, political processes to your advantage? and that's really what that kleptocracy is there. at least during the soviet union, they believed in something which was communism. right now they just believe in criminality and preying on their people. the russian regime doesn't really have a system. it's really an elite class. >> bad guys. thank you so much. riveting testimony today. coming up, russian president vladimir putin denies -- catch that -- interfering in the united states election, using a quote from george herbert walker bush's playbook, he said.

>> translator: ronald reagan once debating about taxes said, watch my lips. >> anyway, it wasn't president reagan. it was president george herbert walker bush during that republican convention. i was there. also ahead, president trump fired a warning shot at the freedom caucus today. if paul ryan can't rally his own party around a new health care plan, trump may end up turning to the democrats for a bipartisan solution. i don't think that's likely. i don't think the democrats are going to play ball with the guy, but he's doing this to scare the right, the tea party people. plus "the new york times" said chairman devin nunes did have help from inside the white house to back up the claim that trump made in his tweets about surveillance. we're going to have much more on that with the "hardball" round table tonight. and let me finish with tonight's trump watch again. it will not be popular at 1600 pennsylvania.

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welcome back to "hardball." despite all we've learned about the kremlin's efforts to undermine the clinton campaign for the benefit of donald trump, president vladimir putin is still insisting that russia did not interfere in the 2016 presidential election here. well, putin called the conclusions of the u.s. intelligence community lies, and in his attempt to deny involvement botched an historic reference to former u.s.

president ronald reagan. here's putin today in a panel discussion moderated by cnbc over in russia. >> translator: i just want to be very clear about this. you and the russian government did never try to influence the outcome of the u.s. presidential election, and there will be no evidence found? >> translator: ronald reagan once debating about taxes and addressing the americans said, watch my lips. he said no. watch my lips. no. >> well, of course it was former president george herbert walker bush, not reagan, who famously said, read my lips. here he is. >> read my lips. no new taxes. >> well, putin's latest denial comes as the bbc reports at least one detail from that dossier by christopher steele

has been corroborated. the report says a russian diplomat was also identified as a spy by the u.s. government. quote, people who saw the intelligence agree with the dossier, adding weight to steele's other claims. i'm joins by general keith alexander, the former director of the national security agency, and also malcolm nance. what do you make of vladimir putin's denial, denying the whole thing with all the evidence that we have that he did mess, to use the common word, with our election? >> well, it reminds me of his denial about crimea. remember, he said at that time these aren't our people. these aren't our people. and he only revealed it was his people when it was to his advantage, when he was back in front of parliament. so i expect that he's looking for when will this be to his advantage. then he'll say whatever his involvement was. i think it's clear, though, when you look at what our intelligence agencies and the commercial agencies and companies like fireeye and crowd

strike have found, it is russia. >> what did you make of the testimony we just saw from our last guest here about the way in which the trump people were able to exploit if not work hand in glove with the fake news coming over from russia, how they used each example coming from sputnik or coming from rt and were quick to exploit it? what do you make of that relationship? cooperative or opportunistic? >> i think more opportunistic. my experience on all this, when i look at it and sitting down with these groups, you know, what i see is not people trying to exploit one way or the other. i see a whole series of issues that are, i think, one level above when we're looking at. that's what's the strategy of russia, and then how does this administration and others go after this? what do we do as a country? >> well, their strategy was to get hillary humiliated, wasn't it? we knew that was one of their strategies. whether it was to get trump elected or have hillary come in already handicapped by an embarrassing campaign. >> i think it was further. i think it was to divide the

democratic party and our country. you know, look at the rhetoric that's going on politically. >> yeah. >> the reason is not necessarily on our election. it's about our involvement with nato. >> that's for sure. >> and the european union. so his objectives are much more strategic. if you can get us disenfranchised with the europeans, they look at us in different ways. think about wikileaks and the cia cables. >> what about their push that trump went along with, which was to start trouble with nato by saying pay your dues, start fights with everything including strong economies like angela merkel's? that fight seemed to be what putin wanted us to do and trump's done it. >> i think it's also the right thing to do is to say shouldn't we all pay our own way? >> i know. but the way it's being done publicly, it looks to me like it's to agitate, as you said -- let me go to malcolm on that. what do you make of what we saw today? we saw in clint's earlier

testimony the ability of the trump people to just be there like an alley-oop play in basketball. under the basket. here comes the ball. every time they know where the ball is going to go, catch it and put it in the hoop. every time they put ttook the s coming from russia and put it to america. every time. >> sure. what clint watts said today is absolutely spot-on. what you saw today with vladimir putin, the way that he spoke to the audience, the way that he spoke to the world, was a russian active measure actually going live. there is nothing that he says that is not intended for the consumption first of people of russia, then throughout that russian media organ that is going to spew this back. by extension, it will come into the american conversation through sputnik, russia today, and then through the people who support donald trump because they support vladimir putin. i believe the statistic was 67%

of some of the trump voters believe putin was a strong leader. so it's going to be reinserted back into the american conversation, and putin knows what he's saying when he says it. >> let's talk about something real. crimea and ukraine. we know the russians want to have at least a sphere of influence. they want to bring back something of the old empire in terms of influence. all of a sudden that finds its way into the republican platform this summer, courtesy of who? that looks more like tunism. it looks like cooperation, general. >> it's a great point. in fact, you're hitting on something that would be interesting for you to put up in play. look at this former soviet union when he was a lieutenant colonel in the kgb. the crumbling of their zone, their security zone. now what they face. he's got two significant issues -- he, putin. a terrible economy, and he's unsure of the intentions of nato and the rest of this. >> but poland is not going to attack russia. this is -- that's what we always

talked about hitler. hitler was the one attacking all the time. nobody was threatening hitler. nobody was threatening him. maybe there's a paranoia there, but is it real? >> i think there is great paranoia. >> what can we do about paranoia? >> i'm just telling you from their perspective t would be interesting to look at this because if we're going to solve the problem, we have to understand what he's thinking. i don't think -- >> do you think he's afraid of poland or hungary attacking him? >> i think he's afraid of nato. as you look at this, the question is what's our intention? i think this gives an opportunity for the administration -- and, you know, we have tremendous folks there in mattis and tillerson and others, to say, you know, i think what's happened on this election is far more than they expected. >> do you trust trump to make the call? >> i do. you know, it was interesting. i've met him once, and i was in his office with -- or the roosevelt room with a number of players. they had the press in.

but after they left, you know, it was really interesting to see how he operated. his questions were like a ceo. >> yeah. >> he engaged everybody. you know, i thought, that's the president the american people need to see. >> but that's not the public one we see unfortunately. >> that's right. >> because the public one is tweeting. thank you. more time next time, malcolm. >> we read him boohis book. up exn donald trump fired a warning shot this morning at the democrats and their 2018 prospects. no surprise there, but he also said he's setting his sights on members of his own party. he wants them to fall in line. he's challenging the freedom caucus to play ball, or he's going to call them out. anyway, this is "hardball," where the action is. ♪ ♪

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. spacex launched a recycled rocket putting a satellite into space. the ceo calls it a rouge revolution for space flight. north carolina's governor has signed a repeal of the state's controversial bathroom bill affecting the transgender community. the compromise leaves state legislators in charge of bathroom policy. south carolina's former president has been arrested in a corruption scandal that forced her out of office. the charges include bribery and abuse of power. back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." president trump came out swijing in a tweet today, this time going after both democrats and republicans, specifically he turned up the heat on the conservative house freedom caucus, which the president holds responsible for killing his hopes of passing his affordable care act. anyway, trump tweeted, the freedom caucus will hurt the entire republican agenda if they don't get on the team and fast. we must fight them and dems in 2018. well, "the new york times" reports that this tweet has no -- was no fluke. according to sources, mr. bannon -- that would be steve bannon, who has counseled a tough tone with the rebels, has instructs his staff to more closely monitor the president's twitter messages to use them as leverage in negotiations. so this is strategic stuff, this tweet. conservative congressman mark sanford of south carolina told the south carolina post courier that he received a personal threat from the white. he said trump sent mick mulvaney to tell him, quote, the president asked me to look you

square in the eyes and to say that he hoped that you voted no on this bill so he could run a primary challenge against you in 2018. well, that's a threat. in what seemed like a tag team effort, in fact, speaker paul ryan issued a similar threat while on cbs. >> what i worry about, nora, is that if we don't do this, then he'll just go work with democrats to try and change obamacare, and that's not going to -- that's hardly a conservative thing. >> well, conservative members of congress were not very receptive to the president's message. >> most people don't take well to being bullied. >> the people sent us here. conservatives, the republicans that believe in what they campaigned on and donald trump, they sent us here to drain the swamp. >> when the american people are 17% approval, that's not a winner. we want a total winner, and we're going to give him a total winner that makes america great again. >> well, the mixed messages are giving democrats whiplash.

just yesterday, president trump have offered to work with them on a compromise. i'm joined by barbara lee and michael steele. michael, first the republicans because you used to run that operation, the republican national committee. do you think fear, bullying is going to work? >> no, i don't. i don't understand it. you know, say what you want about the caucus. you're going to need them. this is not just about health care. it's about infrastructure. it's about the big spending plans that the president has. and if you start to alienate them on something like this, particularly when it was an issue you really want to lead with in the first place, why make that enemy? i think what paul ryan was saying was misplaced. the idea that the democrats are going to come work with this president is just not in the cards. congresswoman, i've known you for a while and you're a real progressive. what would it take for you to get into a deal with donald trump on health care? is it even imaginable? health care. >> first of all, chris, i'm very happy to be with you this

evening. let me just say first of all, we cannot allow donald trump to repeal the affordable care act. that is a given. and if the president wants to talk about reducing the costs of prescription drugs, well, okay. but there is no way in heck that i would work with the president unless he committed to never repeal the affordable care act, which would take away health care from 24 million people. also, chris, you know it was a big, huge tax giveaway for the very wealthy, for millionaires and billionaires. no way would i do that. >> the republican bill last week. by the way, what the congresswoman just said is the mirror image of what paul ryan said. he said they're not going to vote for anything that doesn't repeal obamacare. i don't know where this meeting is going to occur where both sides agree on something. >> i think the president moves to that space where he can live with a little bit of obamacare. >> but these guys on the caucus side, these tea party people, freedom caucus people, they don't want anything but repeal.

>> they don't. but that's the space the president finds himself. if he can cobble out enough democrats to help him, that's the space he'll occupy. >> let's be hopeful. i'm a little more hopeful than some people, and i'm hopeful that somewhere down the line there's something that can get done in the next two years. it's not going to be health care, i believe. infrastructure. democratic party people have long been in cahoots with labor people. people want manufacturing jobs. they want construction jobs. they want jobs that pay a good salary for a family. is there a hope that the republicans and democrats will have a bill to start rebuilding this country again? will they get together? will you get together? >> i know myself and democrats certainly want to do everything we can to help the american people. we want to create jobs. we want to help working men and women. we want to create good-paying jobs with benefits. but, chris, i have to tell you since this president has been in office, we have not seen any indication, no hint that he wants an agenda that's about

economic security and creating jobs. >> well, somebody once said, in washington, pay attention to what the member says after the word "but," and you just said the "but" word. i'm wondering do you have any hope, congresswoman, that trump will see the light? he talked about rebuilding l.a. airport, rebuilding laguardia represent, rebuilding penn station, these big, iconic public spaces in our lives that look pretty old and beat up compared to the rest of the world. you don't have any hope he'll do something like that? >> well, first of all, president trump talked a lot about a lot. in fact, we have not seen anything. he has not done anything except try to take health care away from 24 million people. >> okay. >> as well as putting forth a proposal to build a wall and a muslim ban. so we haven't seen any indication that he wants to do that, but i know we certainly want to help the american people create jobs and move forward so they can live the american dream. >> you know where i see hell coming? i'm telling you, it's going to

be this -- if you think the democrats are going to vote to raise the national debt to pay for a wall along the rio grande, your party is crazy. it's never going to happen. >> you've got a number of moves that the administration has got to deal with. you've just mentioned one of them, the debt ceiling. the other is infrastructure where he could actually create a space to work with the barbara lees in the house and the senate. but here's the rub there. he starts in that direction. you're going to have the fiscal hawks in the caucus, not just the freedom caucus but the caucus as a whole saying, wait a minute. we're going to spend how much money? where is that coming from? >> government is complicated. thank you. congresswoman, it's always great to have you on from a great part of the country, northern california around the bay year. thank you very much, congresswoman barbara lee and michael steele. up next, big news tonight as reports say former nsa director michael flynn has agreed to testify if given criminal immunity. wow. how he has fallen. now worrying about prosecution. the "hardball" round table will

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welcome back to "hardball." we're continuing to follow that breaking news story tonight. it's in "the wall street journal" today that mike flynn, the former national security agency told the fbi congressional officials he's willing to be interviewed in eblgs change for immunity. flynn's lawyer said he certainly has a story to tell and he very much wants to tell it should the circumstances permit. how is that for phraseology? joining me on the round table is david ignatius, tamara keith, and tim mac. thank you, all of you. so he's heat of the national intelligence agency -- >> national security adviser. >> national security adviser. now he's not. he was only there for two weeks. what's he worried about? why does he want immunity? >>le with, he was interviewed by

the fbi when he first got started in the white house. we don't know the questions he was asked, but we do know that he gave an account of his conversation with russian ambassador sergey kislyak to the vice president, vice president pence, that turned out later not to be true. pence relied on it, went on television and gave an account that also wasn't true. so that's part of this. i think this immunity negotiation is something that has to cause concern in the trump white house, and for donald trump in particular because what michael flynn could talk about is how much he discussed these now questioned actions, conversations with donald trump. >> sure. >> that's the -- >> let's get to the heart of it. the russians wanted the sanctions removed, and he had a little problem telling the truth about that. but he did talk about sanctions with the russian ambassador, which is at the heart of this question of whether there was cooperation from the trump people with the russian hacking

and everything else they were doing. >> of course there were questions way before the transition. i mean the questions about whether there was collusion or collaboration between the trump camp and russia starts way before the transition, way before that meeting with kislyak and the other meetings with kislyak that may or may not have been disclosed. >> we know there was a change in the republican platform to allow for russian influence in ukraine, which they very much wanted. they just showed up there. we know there was discussions about sanctions. all the areas that putin cared about were discussed. >> which is what all these committees, congressional committees, are currently investigating those connections among other things of course. >> is this guy going to be the john dean of this watergate affair? when you start talking immunity, you're talking you got something good because you have to get in there with a deal. you have to have something that the intelligence senate committee would want. >> if these folks aren't guilty of something, they're certainly

acting quite shifty and shady from top to bottom. we're not just talking about michael flynn. we're talking all sorts of associates in the trump cam going all the way back to 2015, people like roger stone, paul manafort, the former campaign chairman, and carter page, a former foreign policy adviser. all these folks have now said, hey, we're willing to talk under the right circumstances. they're willing to talk -- >> he's the first to say immunity, though. >> this is the first immunity conversation we know about. that doesn't mean there aren't others going on. when the fbi undertakes a serious investigation like this one, what they do is go after lower-level people. so i'm sure there are a number of people who must have been contacted through their attorneys. >> so you start low, and you go high, right? that's what prosecutors do. they work up the tree. >> flynn is not particular lid low on the tree. >> he's got some good contacts because he talked to carter page, roger stone, paul manafort. he talked to the president when he was a candidate. as you mentioned, they're all

conversations that must have occurred. >> you also want to follow the money here, right? one of the things with -- >> we know he got a chunk of money, over $30,000 to show up for dinner with putin that night. >> at a russia today dinner in 2015. this is well before any of these things with regards to the russian government influencing the election ever came out. >> what were the russians doing with jill stein over there by the way? they usually don't like -- >> that photo is incredible. >> what do you think? >> you know, i think rt and putin wanted anybody who was willing to come. >> they wanted some bold print names? >> you know, you can -- my view now is there's so much real stuff, you don't have t invent conspiracy theories about anybody anymore. just got to wait for facts. >> before we quit, nunes, this guy's behavior doesn't make any sense. he knew that somebody would find out he went to the white house and came the next day and pretended he just got something new to show the white house. did he think he would get away with going through clearance, getting escorted into the

building, and the media wouldn't find out about it and thement wouldn't know about it? >> well, and especially that he would then continue to talk to the media every single day like in every hallway. i mean he should figure out the tactic that people like paul ryan figured out a long time ago which is like pretend on your fine. >> congressman yoho said that he works for the president. he says nunes, the chairman of the committee investigating trump, works for trump. >> i don't think they could have bungled it any worse if they had planned it. the chairman just disappears one evening from his staff and thinks that no one will notice this mysterious -- >> changed cars. >> "the daily beast" reported that. >> this was a piece of theater from beginning to -- >> opera buff. anyway, we'll be right back with the round table. they're going to tell me more. this is where the action is. and once we do, we see wonder waiting. every step you take, narrows the influence of narrow minds.

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i'start at the new carfax.comar. show me minivans with no reported accidents. boom. love it. [struggles] show me the carfax. start your used car search at the all-new carfax.com. we're back with the "hardball" round table and tonight's best scoop. david? >> so the trump administration has decided on a top-to-bottom review of national security under the basic rubric, america first. this is going to guide all foreign policy across the board. >> wow. >> and the president had members of congress over to the white house for lunch today to talk about the opioid crisis. but he didn't have three senators who actually wrote the major legislation last year that he's been raving about related to opioids. they weren't invited. >> yes? >> it's been a crazy day, but i think the missed news here is

that senator marco rubio said in a senate intel committee hearing today that his campaign aides have been targeted by russian hackers both as recently as yesterday and last year during the campaign. >> everybody's got to get in the act, right? i was hacked. i was hacked. david, why are they hacking people that would you think are on their ideological side these days? >> i think the russians want an influence in every direction. they want to destabilize our system. and look at how they succeeded. i mean that's really the abiding lesson right now. look, we tie ourselves up in knots every single day as a result of the thing they set in motion. >> trump helps, doesn't he? >> trump helps. >> he likes things to be unstable and keep people moving and overwhelm everyone with news. >> it would be totally wrong to view putin as a creature of the left or a creature of the right. putin wants to advance his own interests. if jill stein will do it, if bernie sanders will do it, if

attacking marco rubio or backing donald trump will do it, that's the course that the russian government will take. >> why does he seem like right, like a strong man? >> i think that we're mistaking strength and power and maliciousness for, you know, being on the right. i don't think that's necessarily the case. >> thank you, guys. it's been great. we'll be right back with more. thank you, david, tamara, and tim. when we return, let me finish with tonight's trump watch. you're watching "hardball." liberty mutual stood with us when a fire destroyed the living room.

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trump watch thursday, march 30th, 2017. i have to thank some unusual partners for tonight's trump watch. one is congressman devin nunes for announcing to one and all that his prime motive for getting neck-deep into trump's tweet masquerade was political. he said the president was taking a lot of heat, and he wanted to cool things down for him. thank you. i owe a second source, presidential press secretary

sean spicer for suggesting the need for a smell test, he called it. he was the public servant who served us the observation that if the chairman of the house intelligence committee had gone down to the white house in the dark of the night to get some info, then proceeded back there the next morning to deliver with great drama the same info that he said sort of backed up the president's tweets, that would again, as he said, not pass the smell test. so true, sean. you performed right there a public service. you've told us the truth. it doesn't. finally tonight, i must thank united states congressman ted yoho of florida for establishing the fact that the aforementioned chairman of the house intelligence committee works for president trump. works for him. get out your civics book, congressman. members of congress report to the people. there's this thing called checks and balances. that's what members of congress are supposed to be, especially the chairman of the committee that's supposed to be investigating the president, not working for him. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us.

"all in" with chris hayes starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes on a day that saw the president launch an all-out assault on a faction of his own party, the public launch of a second investigation into the trump campaign ties to russia, and a report the white house orchestrated its own vindication of trump wiretap claims. the biggest story of the day is all about michael flynn. tonight, "the wall street journal" is reporting that donald trump's former national security adviser michael flynn today told the fbi and both congressional committees he will testify in exchange for immunity from prosecution. a congressional official confirms to nbc news that flynn told the senate intelligence committee he will testify in exchange for imcommunity. a spokesman declined to comment. flynn was president trump's closest adviser on national security throughout the campaign and was named national security adviser by trump, but onl