want it to be one way. want it to be one way. >> man, stop. stop saying that. >> but it's the other way. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." marlo stanfield's eternal wisdom in the wire rang true this week when donald trump's best effort to send the media on a scavenger hunt about red herrings wiretaps and leaks. continues to haunt him, this time the ghost of michael flynn. on thursday "the wall street journal" dropped the bombshell that flynn is shopping around an offer to be interviewed by the fbi and the house and senate sbblg committees in exchange for immunity from prosecution.

so far he has no takers. congressional physicians told nbc news at this time the senate committee is not receptive to flynn's request for immunity. flynn's attorney released a statement saying of his client's desire to make a deal, no reasonable person who has benefit of advice from counsel would submit to questioning in such a highly politicized witch hunt environment without assurances against unfair prosecution. that's a very different explanation for why a person would seek immunity from what we heard when hillary clinton's staffers sought immunity deals into the probe of her use of a private e-mail server. ironically among the loudest voices offering alternative explanation was michael flynn. >> when you are given immunity, that means you've probably commit add crime. >> people who have done nothing wrong typically doesn't ask for immunity. >> if you're not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for. >> that take on immunity put donald trump in conflict with himself when he tweeted this on friday. mike flynn should ask for immunity in that this is a witch

hunt, excuse for big election loss, by media and dems of historic proportion. exclamation point. trump should include himself at the top of that list of people responsible for drawing attention to michael flynn because it was trump's baseless claim of being wiretapped by president obama that opened the door of yet another brewing scandal that this week led right back to flynn. house chair devin nunes refused to say he gave him intelligence reports showing legal inclusion of the team targeting foreign nationals. has he denied the information came from the white house. but on hurst "the new york times" identified nunes sources as two white house senior staffers. "the washington post" named a third senior staffer as also being involved in the handling of the reports. one of those reported sources is senior intelligence official ezra coen watt nik, protege of

the man who first hired him at the white house. you guessed it, michael flynn. joining me white house counsel john dean, neira hack, senior analyst, msnbc contributor and author of "how to catch a russian spy. malcolm nance, msnbc contributor and author of "the plot to hack america." a mega panel, as it were, to discuss these issues. i'm going to start at the table with you, john dean. the bombshell news that michael flynn wants imun. you have baseball down this road before, sir, in the watergate hearings. explain to us the difference between the kind of immunity you can get from congress, from one of those committees and the kind of immunity you can get from prosecution. >> i was involved in writing the statute before i ever needed it for myself. two types of immunity. one is called transactional, which really takes care of any kind of -- very broad. the other is use immunity. this is what congress typically grants, which is use immunity,

which is just for the testimony you give before congress. in other words, you can still be prosecuted if they have evidence outside of that or evidence they collected before you testify. so it's a rather limited situation. the fbi cannot grant immunity. it has to come from the department of justice. >> right. >> if a committee of congress wants to grant immunity, they have to wait a 60-day period to get clearance from justice and then a judge approves it before it goes forward. they do not give immunity unless they are really getting something for it. >> right. can you be compelled to testify before congress even without immuni immunity? can you be made to testify? >>. >> you cannot be made. you can always take the fifth amendment. if they want your testimony they can say we're going tommunize you and force you. the case has progressed pretty far. she can force it. it's just use immunity but they

can compel testimony. >> one last question, in the iran contrayou had oliver north get immunity and testified and was prosecuted, similar to what youed, then it was overturned. was that because his immunity turned out to cover what he was prosecuted for? >> no, the court said you can't have it both ways. you can't force a person to testify and then turn around and prosecute him on the same evidence. what you've done is you've tainted the jury pool. you've affected people when you have this high-profile hearing, which north's certainly was. then the jury pool could not really say they had not been influenced by the testimony. so it's not clean testimony. that was the exception that really has never been dealt with above oliver north's case. hasn't been solved yet. >> that testimony was public, on tv, hard not to see it. >> exactly.

>> let's talk a little about michael flynn and sort of draw this out a little bit. this evan watnik, the tie between michael flynn and the information handed over to devin nunes. you had a political story earlier this month, his successor h.r. mcmaster wanted to hick his own people. one thing he wanted to do after ezra cohen-watnick. what do we know? >> not a lot.

i've spoken to senior people. a senior forces guy who worked directly for michael flynn. but flynn had a reputation there of being a rather iffy and choosing favorites. so cohen-watnick came over from the white house. the fact he was an extremely junior person. this is a guy who should be standing watch at operational watch center with a pot of coffee, pouring coffee for other people. how he got to the white house with flynn shows that he's a flynn loyalist. and clearly when flynn left, he was left behind and put in charge of analysis for all of the national security council's intelligence. if general mcmaster couldn't get him out, because he went and directly appealed to jared kushner, steve bannon who took his case to donald trump personally and overrode general mcmaster, then this guy is buried in there for a reason other than the fact he has no

intelligence background whatsoever beyond a basic analyst, which tells you that his background, most likely, is political. as we've seen this week with the nunes information. that may have been his job to go into those systems, use his clearance, get that information out and use it for political purposes not intelligence purposes. >> eli lake did a story in bloomberg, nunes lied to his face when he asked were his sources in the white house, when he told me it was intelligence official not white house staffer, turns out he misled me. you' been personally involved with the white house wants intelligence, wants to find people to participate in it. do you find it suspicious this gentleman, ezra cohen-wat nick was so insistent staying in place after flynn was gone. >> yes. he doesn't seem like some be who

is at that level. he doesn't have experience and background to perform and funs in that job. in addition to the fact they are looking at raw intelligence and describing to the public and the committee what it is they are seeing. raw intelligence is up to interpretation and to context. i would say also we're seeing reporting now that the president himself wants to see raw intelligence. in my experience that never works out. >> and why is that? what is it raw intelligence? difficult, doesn't seem devin nunes understood what he was seeing. he looked at the information and thought it was a bombshell. adam schiff who was ranking member looked at the same information and said he didn't see why it was necessary to go the route that nunes did. i'm going to go to naviyd on that. how can it be two of these members of congress looked at that same raw intelligence and

one came to the conclusion it was a bombshell that approved trump was wiretapped and the other said it didn't. >> up to interception and context. i think both the answers to those questions is political. essentially you had people look at intelligence not the way you're supposed to, look at the intelligence and see where it leads you, be objective, unbiased and produce analysis. rather looking for evidence to support the claim that president obama had wiretapped him. again, as nada and malcolm said in the past, this is raw inteigence. it's not been validated. i think when you look at this stuff perhaps it can be shocking. we don't know what's in there. on the flip side i think this was primarily motivated to look for evidence to support a claim. again, that is not what you ever do. you take intelligence, you interpret it and present it objectively and unbiased to a decision matter. >> it feels like a cover-up certainly. it does seem that once donald

trump tweeted that already knocked down assertion he was wiretapped at trump tower, you now have three white house officials with access to that intelligence go on a fishing skpe tiegs to find it. in your experience have you heard of something like that happening within a white house agency? >> no. these are the agencies at nsa supposed to be nonpit political. each intelligence agency contributes personnel who had experienced so they can help advise and give context to the president. unfortunately now you have somebody in the senior slot more interested in saving his career and working on the partisan side. a part of the challenge sblg idea of a story to tell, the quote from other dear friend who said he has a story to tell. >> michael flynn's lawyer. >> also a witch hunt. you can't really have both at the same time. what we do know is the president of the united states, donald trump, is very good at developing story lines in the

public. that's what he disenfranchisement so these are stories to detract and distract people from what is really going on. which is why there's constantly now it all started with donald trump's own tweet about manipulation of information. that unfortunately is what we're seeing this white house do itself is manipulate this information. the challenge we have with the idea the president wants to move even further away from actual analysis and facts is -- and use raw intelligence is the equivalent of one of husband going on web md and looking up information and diagnosing ourselves. you have experts and people w are trained like doctors, like inlligence analysts for a reason, becausehey havehe experience and history to be able to interpret the information in a nonpartisan way. so that's what we're seeing is that now the intelligence agencies are being come opted for an agenda run strictly for partisan purposes. >> i'm going to come back to you. on top of that you had sean

spicer not only spouting conspiracy theories from the white house podium in order to deflect the media onto a new topic, he didn't answer the question whether or not donald trump through his twitter account was trying to encourage the justice department to immunize michael flynn. let's take a listen. >> he believes mike flynn should go testify. he believes he could go up there and do what he needs to do to get the story out. >> with immunity. >> that's up to him and his lawyer to decide. i'm not going to give legal advice from the podium. i will tell you the president's view is he should go up there and testify. >> the president gave legal advice from his twitter account. >> i understand. >> you under in the past the ensemble reason you ask for immunity is if you committed a crime. >> the only thing you're missing, respectively, what he's asking is go testify. >> the propriety of the president of the united states suggesting he should get immunity and go testify.

>> mr. trump has no regard for any standard procedures, any norms and it's really quite out of place to suggest what justice should or should not do. i think his influence is minimal in this situation given the fact attorney general sessions recused himself. the rest of the department is not going to be listening closely to what this advice from the white house is. so he's making a lot of noise and having very little impact with this. that's par for the course. >> yeah, it's definitely going one direction and -- thank you very much. coming up, our exclusive interview with nancy pelosi. but first our moment of maxine. that's next. yeah, so mom's got this cold. hashtag "stuffy nose." hashtag "no sleep." i got it. hashtag "mouthbreather." yep. we've got a mouthbreather. well, just put on a breathe right strip and ...

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i'm a strong black woman. i cannot be intimidated. i cannot be undermined. i'm not going to be put down. i'm not going to go anywhere. i'm going to stay on the issues. the issues are basically these, we have a predent of the united states who does not deserve to be president. >> congressman maxine waters once again showing why she has become an icon of the resistance movement against trump. i'm pleased to welcome her back to "am joy" this morning for what we love to call our moment of maxine. congresswoman, it's always nice to see you, even though we're not in person, nice to see you. >> thank you very much. i'm delighted to be on with you again. >> i dress a little bit up when you're coming. i had to throw on some pearls this morning. let's talk about the issues, i think it's important. a lot of people are talking about you because of the outrageous and ridiculous things

said by another person on a network but you i think very smartly said let's stick to the issues. let's go to the first one. the first one is the michael flynn decision that he would like to try to get immunity from prosecution in order to testify. what do you make of that? >> well, i'm very pleased that he is being turned down. he's trying to get in there early before the investigation brings about the kind of information that is absolutely needed. so i think they did the right thing by not giving him immunity at this point. i think michael flynn is involved in so many ways with this trump organization. i think not only did he lie to the vice president and to everybody else, i think that he's deeply involved in what he call the kremlin clan. so i'm glad he did not get immunity. >> i have to talk a little about

your fellow congressman mr. nunes, ely lake who writes for bloomberg said nunes was dishonest with him about the sources he received. you have this "washington post" headline that three white house officials not just one shared those files, intelligence files with him. devin nunes said his sources were not white house sources. at do youake of that and do you think his leadership of the house intelligence committee at this point is credible. >> absolutely not. in fact, i do not think that the intelligence committee of the house can continue under his leadership. he has no credibility. he has lied. as a matter of fact he has been bumbling and stumbling with all of this. it's almost childish in the way that he's showing that he's but a puppet of the president. so i think he needs to either step down or paul ryan needs to take him away from that committee or shut down the committee on this issue. they cannot go forward with him in the leadership. >> i want to let you listen to

his defense of himself. he was on a fresno station ksee doing an interview. this is defense of himself and charges he's too close to the president. >> they are saying he's just too close to get a fair investigation when that investigation might involve the white house. do you understand those criticisms? >> yeah, i mean, i do. but it always go back to who else is going to do it? there's only so -- at the end of the day someone has to do it. i'm sure all the republicans in congress voted for president trump. all the democrats voted for hillary clinton. i mean, that's just how it is. at the end of the day, we're accountable to our voters. like i said, this whole issue that we briefed the president on, i briefed the president on, had nothing to do with russia. >> congressman, in your view, who else would do it if not the house intelligence committee? >> i want to give the senate intelligence committee an opportunity to move forward. i've always said, and i said on

msnbc that i never thought that the house intelligence committee could do it because of nunes. i think i saw him long before this incident basically defending the president. he was othe transition team. i think that he cannot be credible and provide the kind of leadership that is needed. and so we don't have to worry about the house. let them shut it down all together. let's now focus on the senate and see what we can get from the senate intelligence committee. if that doesn't work, we've got to go to an independent commission on independent counsel of some kind. >> i want to give you a chance to react. i don't know you've seen donald trump's twitter feed was active. he tweeted the following at our own chuck todd. when will sleepy eyes chuck todd and nbc news start talking about the obama surveillance scandal in all caps and stop with the fake trump russia story. what do you make of the

president's attempts to redirect chuck todd and the rest of us onto the story he wants to talk about, which is his claim he was wiretapped? >> that's typical of this president. that's what's so abnormal about him. he continues to go down a road to say things where nobody is going to believe him. he's lying. everybody knows he twice to divert and distract and get people off the issue. he wants everybody to believe he told the truth when he said he was wiretapped. he's trying to substitute that now for being under surveillance. it doesn't work. he needs to quit it. he needs to stop it. this is a president who has shown he does not have what it takes to lead this country. as a matter of fact, i've never heard a president of the united states been called a liar as much as he's been called a liar by practically everybody. he just does not have credibility. >> as we just completed women's

history month, i have to show our audience one of the things that is so great, good things about congress, you guys get a lot of criticism but there is a lot of support from one woman to another in congress. one of those took place when we interviewed leader pelosi yesterday and she showed you some support, representative. i want to let you hear that. >> thank you. >> maxine, of course, is strong, effective, and that makes her a target. you're not a target if you're not effective. that's what i always say about myself. they picked the wrong person with maxine. but anyway, viva maxine. she's so great and she's so good at what she does as our top democrat on the financial services committee. >> your thoughts? >> well, you know, i have the fortune of being under the leadership of one of the strongest women in this country, and that's nancy pelosi. she has delivered time and time

again for the people of this country. and if it had not been for her, we never would have been able to pass aca, known as obamacare. she's fantastic, she's ferocious and she's a fantastic leader. >> i think that's a great note to end on. congresswoman maxine waters, thank you very much, appreciate it. >> you're welcome. >> we're going to make sure everyone follows you on twitter. there it is. follow maxine waters. she's a great follow as well. thank you for your time. >> thank you so much, joy brf have a great weekend. >> you, too. >> coming up next, how your trump conspiracy sausage gets made. you don't want to miss that. stay with us. liberty mutual stood with us

when a fire destroyed everything in our living room. we replaced it all without touching our savings. yeah, our insurance won't do that. no. you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance >> where has any of the reporting been about evelyn farkas, who played a senior role in the obama administration going on the record to talk about how they politically used classified information is troubling.

>> if you've gotten full off the nothing burger attempts to make sense out of donald trump's fable about being wiretapped by president obama, well, make some ryan. this week we got fed one more straight from the corners via white house secretary. march 1st when "new york times" reported this story about the 11th hour effort by the obama white house to preserve intelligence about russian interference in the election and possible contacts between the russians and trump campaign. according to the "times," their fear is intelligence could be covered up or destroyed or sources exposed once power changed hands. the next day march 2nd "morning joe" interviewed farkas. she left the administration back in 2015, 2015, but urged her

form colagues to save the inlligence. >> i had aear that somehow that information would disappear with the senior people who left, so it would be hidden away in the beaurocracy that the trump folks if they found out how we knew what we knew about their staff, the trump's staff dealing with russians they would try to compromise those sources and methods. >> two days later on march 4th, trump woke up in the wee hours to tell his twitter tale of being wiretapped by president obama. fast forward to now, nearly four weeks later, with the investigations into trump's russia ties in full swing and the right wing blogosphere, google if you dare, discovers the month old sound bite as evidence trump's tweet was true. it wasn't long before conspiracy became fox news facts. >> a damaging piece of tape

circulating that could vindicate president trump. this clip we're going to show you is march 2nd, from msnbc interview with evelyn farkas. >> what she said sounds like she admits the obama administration tied on the trump team. >> she's acknowledging what donald trump tweeted out was correct. >> no, she wasn't. by friday those alternative facts became white house's official position care of sean spicer. and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how your donald trump conspiracy sausage got made. up next, former fbi agent who told america that trump is already acting like a russian. that's next. whoa! you're not taking these. hey, hey, hey! you're not taking those. whoa, whoa! you're not taking that. come with me. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. mom, i'm taking the subaru. don't beate.

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>> what no one is saying in this room, the reason active measures worked in this election because commander in chief used them against opponents.

he denies intel about united states about russia. he claims the election could be rigged. that was the number one pushed by "sputnik" news all the way up until the election. >> that was former fbi special agent clint watts thursday during his testimony before the senate intelligence committee. clint is joining me here today along with republican strategist and msnbc analyst michael steele. still with me, malcolm nance. thank you for being here. clint, i'm going to go right to you on that. it was a pretty stunning statement you made, commander in chief used active measures during the campaign. what does that mean? >> what it means, when russians put out propaganda they use it against their opponent. sponsored news outlets put out some but manipulated. if y use that against your opponent you make your self vulnerable to later being discredited. >> a lot of people whether

wikileaks can directly be called a tool of russia. is there a distinction of wikileaks and rt or "sputnik." >> those are state sponsored outlets. they are going to put forth the kremlin line. in the middle are what we call gray outlets. some of these are just organizations that enjoy conspiracy theories because that's what their audience wants. some are tools for that effort. wikileaks deliberately received this information. we know it because some showing up as d.c. leaks. they are becoming tools whether you like it or not. i know some people see wikileaks as valuable service but if it's so one-sided and in the tank for russia, how do we know what isn't being exposed as well. >> for donald trump, the big question is, is he a agent or unwitting. which is he?

>> he's unwitting. i don't think he's manchurian scenario. i think he's an american but an opportunist. he takes advantage of whatever he can to win his victory. that's part of his business strategy over the last three decades. he's taken that to the political front. because he has inexperienced staff they don't realize what they are grabbing onto. >> donald trump has displayed this affinity for all things russian, their way of doing politics he's brought along a substantial significant share of the republican base. why do you suppose that is? >> well, as somebody who didn't support trump, it is very frustrating watching a lot of republicans just tow the party line. i'm hoping things will force republicans to wake up. the failure of the health care bill and the president's reaction to that i think was a

slap in the face specifically to the freedom caucus members. and you know, there's a point where you've got to start trusting what your eyes are telling you and just wake up to reality that there's some serious problems here. even if he has an r after his name, maybe we should ask questions. bipartisan select committee would be a very welcome antidote at this point. >> michael steele you also had targeting of republicans during the presidential campaign. it wasn't used the way it was used against hillary clinton but i want to you listen to marco rubio, one of the more hard line on russia republicans who was also targeted. this is thursday at the hearing talking about hacking efforts. >> in july of 2016, shortly after i announced that i would seek re-election to the united states senate, former members of my presidential campaign team who had access to the internal information of my presidential campaign were targeted by ip addresses with an unknown

location in russia. that effort was unsuccessful. i'd also inform the committee within the last 24 hours, 10:45 a.m. yesterday a second attempt was made again against former members of my presidential campaign team who had access to our internal information. again target freddie an ip address from an unknown location in russia. that effort was also unsuccessful. >> you know, mike, one of the things that has been perplexing to me is that republicans -- most republicans, with a few exceptions, have been so reluctant to really dive into this. they want to talk about leaks. they want to talk about this conspiracy theory barack obama wiretappg trump tower. aren't they worry at some point these same measures already have been used against republicans and of course could be used again against republicans. >> i think they should be worried. i think marco was right on point, about the actions of

russians. the only reason they haven't released information on republican figure is because they have no use for that at this moment. doesn't mean they won't have a need or use to do it in the future. the idea that the republican party, rnc or party as a whole or individual members think russians are somehow giving us a pass because donald trump has said nice things about russians or all the members of the administration may have affiliations to the russian government is just foolish, crazy to believe in the first instance. there has to be a high degree of caution and a greater degree of investigation to make sure that the tentacles of the russian government aren't reaching as deep as a lot of us suspect they are. to the extent they are, they cut those tentacles off as soon as th they. the administration of all individuals and groups should be the first one charging down that

particular path but they are not. they have their own economic, political or other interests and reasons for not doing that. that to marco rubio's point becomes a bigger problem for republicans down the road. >> malcolm, that is precisely the point. what are the interests at play? what's in it for trump and his allies to just completely stick with this pro kremlin line no matter what. have you been able to suss out what those interests might be. >> it's a very frustrating point because it can be one -- in my world, one of two things. itoing to come down to personal finances, t where at some point they were given assurances or felt they have assurances that there is a body of money that is available that russia is going to be that source from that will impact their futures. or it can be some form of loyalty or coercion that's going on that comes from russian

intelligence and the kremlin itself, which lends itself to espionage. or even worse, it's a hybrid of the two. you know, denver doesn't say anything negative about vladimir putin because if he owes money to vladimir putin, you know, someone who has a gambling debt never insults their booky, right? donald trump in that respect, this is why we've wanted to have a look at tax returns. what is the source of the wealth? where it did it come from? was it financed by someone else? do they hold him over a bag, so to speak. that will get you the wonderful question that will answer the wonderful question, why, why does this white house do all of the kremlin's bidding. >> clinton, i guess that is the question everyone has. it can't be coincidental that this many people surrounding donald trump have connections to russia, affinities to russia. how would the fbi go out answering that question of why? >> i think they are looking at

all key connections in terms of what's attached to russian over diplomatic measures and in terms of covert measures. counter-intelligence is what the fbi does and they are good at it. going to focus on two things will one, the money. money connections are undeniable. if the russians are funneling money they are going to try to cloak it. that's a long investigation and americans need to be patient on that. we saw in the dossier coming out all sorts of rumors, rumors of intelligence meetings, people in eastern europe. right now the missing piece to the investigation is the connections in eastern europe. why were those people there, who were they meeting with. the other part is the influence system we saw, bots, hackers, a lot stationed in eastern europe and these countries. that's where the investigation needs to focus now and even journalists. >> before we go, thank you all for being here but i want to go

back to michael jackson steel a -- michael steele and says get ready for president pence. >> context is everything. this president likes to do big things. >> resign before his term is up. >> to the extent he gets big things done, a lot of people have the question, how long does the interest last? the fact of the matter is, there's no secret that a lot of people are creating entres to the vice president for a host of reasons and it's something to muse over. >> we're going to take you out for drinks and ask you that question again. thank you very much, clint watts, michael steele -- drinks -- and malcolm nance. coming up in our next hour nancy pelosi on devin nunes and paul ryan's failure on health care.

but first what paula jones means for donald trump.

good evening. paula jones wants to sue bill clinton for sexual harassment. she wants to do it while he is sitting president. his lawyers said, no, that would be inappropriate. it can wait until he's out of office. today the u.s. supreme court said miss jones has the law on her side. she can sue now. no sitting president has ever gone through this before. >> it had never happened before, but it is happening again. twenty years after paula jones won the right to sue a sitting president, donald trump is facing a defamation suit. this week his lawyers claimed he's too busy to be sued right now. unfortunately for the president, who loves his golf game, that's going to be tricky to prove. let me turn it over to retro pete williams to explain. >> today's ruling leaves the door open for the judge to

temporary delay the case if the president can prove it's taking so much of his time that it's interfering with official duties. that won't be easy, one said as soon as he announces the vacation, he's a sitting duck. pete williams, nbc news, supreme court. >> vacation. hmm. other wos, this ain't over. up xt, attorney lisa bloom joins me with much more. stay tuned.

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. every woman lied when they came forward to hurt my campaign. total fabrication. the events never happened. never. >> well, one of the women who accused donald trump of sexual misconduct last year is suing him for calling her a liar. summer, a former "apprentice" contestant claimed he groped and

kissed her without her consent. now she's suing him for defamation. monday trump argued he cannot be sued because such lawsuits, quote, could distract a president from his public duties to the detriment of not only the president, but also the nation. in other words, trump is just too by presidenting to be su. joining me now, civil rights attorney, lisa bloom. lisa has represented four women who accused trump of sexual misconduct and her mother gloria allred represents some of the women. i had to replay a little quip. i don't know if you were seated already to hear retro pete williams describing the paula jones situation vis-a-vis bill clinton's busyness. take a listen. >> today's ruling leaves the door open for the judge there to temporarily delay the case if the president can prove it's taking so much of his time that his interfering with his official duties. but that won't be easy. one law professor who supported

the president said today as soon as he announces a vacation, he's a sitting duck. pete williams, nbc news, supreme court. >> first of all, we love retro pete. second of all, donald trump has golfed. he has gone to a golf course at least 13 times in his nine-week presidency and has golfed at least 12 of those times. one more, the "new yorker" has this cover this month. because he does so much golfing. is donald trump in trouble in this argument that he's too busy presidenting to take this lawsuit? >> absolutely. and, you know, his whole idea that he's immune from any kind of lawsuit while he's a sitting president is clearly fake law, as you point out during the clinton versus paula jones case. the supreme court ruled unanimously that no one is above the law, and that includes the president. but listen, in all of my sexual harassment cases, the other side tries to drag their feet and stall and delay and sometimes they get away with it.

he is no different. i think a judge will probably law him some delays. ultimately, he's going to have to be held accountable for the statements he made. >> and then the other sort of wrinkle in the trump argument, in that he's been going through a lawsuit the whole time he's been president. he just settled or just had the proval of a $25 million settlement against trump university. that didn't stop him from presidenting. >> and notwithstanding trump's constant attacks against judge curiel. there was a woman who wanted to get out of the trump-u suit and take it trial. and judge curiel said no, the case is over. so listen, there's not just summer zerveos. when we talk about summer, keep in mind, she sued him before he assumed office. and i think that's going to help her, as well. >> and one other question i think a lot of people are

wondering. if once her case goes to trial in the discovery, could we wind up seeing these missing apprentice tapes that everyone has wanted to see that donald trump's friend, mark burnett, has refused to release? could she demand them as the plaintiff in this case? >> absolutely. because in discovery, we're allowed to cast a wide net. at trial, it's a very limited standard of evidence. evidence has to be strictly relevant. but in the discovery phase that the case is in now, you can ask for anything that's likely to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. and if he made statements on those tapes that have to do with sexual assault or groping, like he did on "the apprentice" tapes, i think it's fair game. i think it's going to be a big fight in discovery, but i think a judge should order a release in those tapes. >> i would be remiss if i didn't ask you this question or get your commentary. the white house has announced president donald j. trump has proclaimed april as national sexual assault prevention months. >> he's trying to make april

fools of us all, joy. we know his words on the tape. we know the dozens of women who have come forward. i don't think anyone falls for that. >> yeah. lisa bloom, always great to talk to you, my friend. thank you very much. >> love you, joy. have a good one. >> thank you. and up next, my exclusive interview with house democtic leader, nancy pelosi. much more "a.m. joy" after the break. imagine if the things you bought every day earned you miles to get to the places you really want to go. with the united mileageplus explorer card, you'll get a free checked bag, 2 united club passes... priority boarding... and 50,000 bonus miles. everything you need for an unforgettable vacation. the united mileageplus explorer card. imagine where it will take you. hi, i'm frank. i take movantik for oic, opioid-induced constipation. had a bad back injury, my doctor prescribed opioids

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prosecution and willing to testify before the senate and house intelligence committees. we've already had the senate intelligence committee decline. >> yes. >> can you foresee the house committee saying yes? >> no, but i certainly hope not. it's far too early to be talking about immunity. you're talking about a person who has misrepresented the facts already to congress. so what does he want immunity for, for potential lying to congress or what else? but it is -- no. he shouldn't have immunity. at the end of the day, after he's prosecuted he wants a plea bargain, that's another story. but he shouldn't have immunity. >> let's talk about devin nunes, leading the house intelligence committee at the moment. do you think he has credibility now as the leader of that investigation? >> no, i think not only has he lost all credibility, i think he's tarnished the office that he holds. he's brought discredit to something that is a very, very serious position in the congress. >> yeah. and as you know, it is the

speaker's decision, who leads these committees. speaker ryan has said that devin nunes came to him before going to the white house with this leaked information that we now believe came from three white house staffers, one of whom used to work for devin nunes. if -- let's say a democratic committee leader had come to you -- if adam schiff had come to you in the same manner and said that i've gotten information from the white house, i want to go to the president of the united states and give him these intercepts, give him this information about perhaps transcripts about his campaign, what would you have said? >> well the fact is, the chairman of the committee has a responsibility to the ranking member of the committee. this is the way it has always been. this is highly unusual for two reasons. first of all, we don't know what the subject of the -- those documents are. but we do know that nunes was a part of the trump transition. and that these documents probably referred to that.

in any event, the investigation we want the committee to have is t the trump transition. as well. so it is -- it was wrong on so many scores in terms of whatever guidance -- we don't know what the conversation was with the speaker. but it's a guidance was go to the president and go to the press -- >> yeah. >> that was very wrong. >> yeah. do you think that paul ryan has been forthcoming about his involvement? because, again, he is the person that devin nunes supposedly went to before making this very odd trip to the white house. >> i don't know. but i'll say this. the appointment to the intelligence committee is a very serious responsibility. i get to appoint the democrats, the speaker gets to appoint the republicans, and that's the same thing in the senate. so this is not anything that goes through policy and caucus. this is -- you have put your credibility on the line, who you appoint to that position. and those people have responsibility to the -- to the committee, to the caucus, to the congress and to the country.

it's about gathering intelligence, to keep the american people safe. it's about gathering intelligence to have forced protection. we don't want men and women in uniform to go in harm's way. we want to avoid it at all costs. we want to get the intelligence to avoid possible conflict. but if they go, we want them to have the best possible intelligence as they go in. and here we have a situation that has been so completely politicized. and what is very sad about it, it brings dishonor to the whole committee. we are very proud of our democrats on the committee. we're very proud of our ranking member, adam schiff. he's done a remarkable job. and maybe some of the republican members have comported themselves very well, as well. but not the chairman. so when they say, oh, the house committee, it's dysfunctional no. it's a dysfunctional chairman. >> and the president spokesman, sean spicer, has repeatedly said and said again during his press briefing today, what we should see investigated, including by these committees, is whether or

not the president -- the former president of the united states, barack obama, we tapped donald trump and his campaign team and now they have also gone off into weather obama administration officials were admitting to that, and were putting that information on the record, saying that that took place. is that a legitimate avenue of inquiry? >> i don't think that anything that spicer says is legitimate. because it changes from time to time. he was just saying a short while ago that he didn't think that information came from anybody at the white house. but let's enlarge the issue for a moment. we're talking about the presidency of the united states. we're talking about somebody who is supposed to be leading our country. at least managing his own affairs in the white house, and, of course, his relationship with congress and the american people. and we have a crazy system here where we have a president who is tweeting things on the basis of very little knowledge, but that isn't a problem for him. so really, i think that there should be some adults in the

republican party who would say, please, you bring dishonor to the office of the president by making it look like it's a personal acquisition of yours. no, it is a public responsibility. honor it. >> and you talk about, you know -- the honor of the presidency. at this point, should americans be concerned about the legitimacy of the trump presidency? >> that remains to be seen. we'll see how the investigation goes. that's why we're calling for an independent, outside commission. i have said all along, what is it that the russians have on president trump politically, financially and personally? let's find out. the american people have a right to know the truth. why is it that the republicans want to hide the truth from the american people? let's all support an outside, independent, nonpartisan commission so that we can look into this. because this is about our national security. the security of our country.

this president has flirted with the idea o relaxing sanctions on russia. he's put putin on a pesl at the expense of our american values. he has undermined -- doesn't even know i think what the s.t.a.r.t. treaty is, but nonetheless questioned that. it's about the security of our democracy. it is a proven fact that the russians disrupted our election. now, the question is, was there collusion, was there connection, or whatever. that investigation needs to happen. because we don't want it to happen again. we don't want it to happen again here. we don't want it to happen again in other countries. so these are much bigger issues as to whether flynn should have immunity or spicer knows what he's talking about. where the president is tweeting at the expense of taking time to think, to think, to reflect, to make judgments, to lead our country. this is -- we have important questions here. we'll see about where the

investigations take us. but we have to have the investigation. >> and you think a commission rather than a special prosecutor, and if so, why? >> well, a special prosecutor would be appointed by the justice department by the president of the united states. it's a path. there can be some investigation from the two committees in the house -- the one in the house and senate, if they ever -- if mr. nunes recuses himself and the new chairman is there for that investigation. it doesn't have to be for everything before the committee. but for the -- this particular investigation. that's something that they do -- a prosecutor, that's interesting. but the outside -- that's what we did on 9/11. it had so much -- commanded so much respect. nobody thought of it in terms of being political. >> but there is a third way, which is, of course, the independent council statute which only congress can reauthorize? do you think it's time to talk about that? the idea there is an independent council put in for essentially a

sexual sndal with bill clinton. are we at a point where we need to talk about an independent council? >> i don't know. i didn't think it should have been there for bill clinton, to tell you the truth. i really didn't. and to think of what they put the nation through. of course, bill clinton, but nothing compared to what they put the nation through. so there are these different options. but certainly one of them is not to have the senate have a -- an investigation, the house be deemed dysfunctional when it's just one person who is dysfunctional, the chairman of the committee. the -- but the outside commission is the way to go. so there is no thought of whose agenda, does it work and how does congress choose who that person is. it's still tied to congress. but it is -- no, it is something. >> yeah. >> it is something more than what is happening in the house right now. and i don't know that this same speaker who fails to realize what the responsibilities are of

the chair, of the intelligence committee, how -- near he would be to appointing a special -- an independent council. >> sure. up next, more of my interview with nancy pelosi. we get the leader's opinion on the epic failure of the gop quest to repeal and replace obamacare. you don't want to miss it. various: (shouting) heigh! ho! ( ♪ ) it's off to work we go! woman: on the gulf coast, new exxonmobil projects are expected to create over 45,000 jobs. and each job created by the energy industry supports two others in the community. altogether, the industry supports over 9 million jobs nationwide. these are jobs that natural gas is helping make happen, all while reducing america's emissions. energy lives here. all while reducing america's emissions. at crowne plazwe know busine tvel isn't just business. there's this. 'a bit of this.

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what i worry about, nora, if we don't do this, he'll just go work with democrats to try and change obamacare and that's not -- that's hardly a conservative thing. if this republican congress allows the perfect to be the enemy of the good, i worry we'll push the president into -- into working with democrats. i don't want that to happen. you know why?

i want a patient-centered system. i don't want government running health care. >> speaker ryan acting like don quixote when it comes to a trillion dollar tax cut. in part two with my interview with nancy pelosi, we discuss who is more to blame, donald trump or paul ryan. take a look. >> let's talk about a little bit of the chaos and dysfunction in the house of representatives. we just saw the attempt to repeal and replace obamacare. go down in flames in the house of representatives after 17 days. do you believe that the failure of the trump bill is a failure of the president -- more a failure of the president or more a failure of the speaker? >> i think it was a victory for the americanpeople. it was a victory for their health care. i think it was a victory for thei democracy. american people spoke out. in large numbers. i give so much credit to our outside groups, social media

communicated with the public, and encouraging them to communicate with their members of congress. our internal unity, as well as our unity with the outside through town hall meetings and communications made clear what was at stake in all of this. and when people knew -- when people knew. it was interesting, i go back to the post election when people came out and said it was urgent, we want to take responsibility. that gave us an opportunity. it manifested itself in the march on washington, which was a march on the world, really. it was so fabulous. and people then showing up at airports on the ban. and the town meetings on health care and other subjects. so the -- what that is about is transformative in our democracy. so i think the victory of last week was about a policy substantive victory. but it was a victory again for the american people. and the -- to hold elected

officials accountable, whatever their party, but to hold them accountable. >> yeah. >> so is it trump, is it ryan? well, as i've said, it was amateur hour, it was a rookie error on the part of the president, if you want to call it that. maybe he'll be a rookie forever. but for the moment, because of their meanness, their mean streak, they wanted to have this bill taken up on the very day that president obama signed it into law. and they weren't even ready. and the power of the speaker is the power of the schedule. you schedule when you're ready. not when you think you have a -- some mean date that you have to -- and when they decided to have that date, i knew they emred us. >> it seems that at some point donald trump went from the things he campaigned on, which was build a wall and deportations and, you know, jobs, jobs, jobs, to signing on to an agenda that really does sound more like paul ryan.

this bill was a massive tax cut. we know there is a big tax cut, eviscerating medicaid, including in states where donald trump won. even on his budget, cutting pbs, cutting funding for sesame street and meals on wheels. is there a point in which you, as leader of the democrats in the house noticed donald trump himself shift to this agenda? when did that agenda become paul ryan's agenda? >> it's always been paul ryan's agenda, if you look at the ryan budget of the last couple of congresses before and now, you will see that the agenda -- >> when did donald trump sign on to that? >> i think when he decided to become the nominee of the party. he -- bought into the deconstruction of government, the radical right wing agenda. i don't even know if donald trump will go as far as the republicans in congress. people say, well, how long will it take for the republicans in congress to say enough, donald trump. i said, don't wait for that. because their agenda is very similar to his. if you look at their budget over

the last few years, if you look at their opposition to anything to do with the environment, to climate change, and the rest. if you look at their anti woman agenda, lgbt agenda, you name it, they have been there sooner, longer and in some cases worse. now that he's president and they have the power of the signature, then we have to look at what both the motivation of both of them. you see what the affordable health care, president has said, i didn't really want to do that first. >> right. >> i wanted to do taxes first. and the speaker said, we couldn't do taxes first, we needed to get the trillion dollars out of the affordable care act. in order to do taxes. well, atompletely revealed what their agenda is. it was not a health care bill. it was a tax break for the wealthy -- richest people in our country bill. and the public has to know that. this is all about trickle-down. it's any chance they get to put money in the pockets of the wealthy. taking them out of the pockets of middle income and those who

aspire to middle income people is who they are. >> but if the white house now having been humbled -- we don't know if they were humbled, but they lost on their health care bill. if they came to you, leader pelosi and said we want to cut a deal. we'll take repeal and replace off the table, we will do a fix obamacare, repair it, would you cut that deal with moderate republicans in the white house? >> well, it depends on what they have to offer. but we have things to offer. we know how we could update and improve the affordable health care. but it would have to be in thence absence of any thought of repeal. right now it is resist repeal. because they'll come back. we want a battle. they're still at we are war on the affect. resist/repeal. stop the sabotage. because they will try to defund the subsidies and the rest of that, which will raise premiums, significantly. and undermine the good health of the american people.

resist/repeal, stop the sabotage. bill. and if and when they come to that conclusion, we have some positive initiatives that we can work together on. any time, anywhere. but not before they resist/repeal. >> are democrats equipped right now in terms of the political state of affairs at the dccc, et cetera, to take back the house of representatives? >> yes, we are. >> you think so. >> yes, i think we could. but it is not now. and you can only speak to the reality of the time you're in. but right now we have enormous response in all of the areas that we are working, in terms of mobilization, at the grass roots level, and as you see, a whole other fresh energy coming in. not just to follow our lead, but to give us their lead and how they would like to participate. that they are the bosses. secondly, on the messaging to see what really resonates, you know. we have our values, and as i

said, some of this is in our dna. but should it be in our talking points, because it doesn't have the clarity that some other messaging does. and then third, of course, is the money and that is blowing in. and so we -- but none of that -- the three ms, money, mobilization, messaging, koubco, unless you have great candidates. and that's so exciting, because so many people now see the urgency, want to take responsibility, and want to take the opportunity to run for office, whether they're veterans or women in legislatures, private sector people, across the board. >> sure. >> great people stepping forward. and we have a great leader, our chairman, is wonderful. he's very talented and i like to say we have to be cold-blooded enough to see what races we can win so that we can -- >> sure. >> and it's not about the candidates. that's important. >> right. >> when i say to the candidates, you have to work hard. because it's not about saying

you're better than this other candidate. it's about the one in five children in america who lives in poverty. if you're not working hard enough to win this race, then we have to go someplace else. >> yeah. >> so the one in five children in america who lives in poverty has to be -- that's my northstar. other people have theirs, but that's -- that's mine. up next, nancy pelosi on conservatives attacking maxine waters. stay with us. let me talk to you about retirement. a 401(k) is the most sound way to go. let's talk asset allocation. -sure.

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that worked as hard as you do? yeah. introducing essential portfolios. the automated investing solution that lets you focus on your life. so what does that mean, bill? we have been listening all morning. >> i didn't hear a word she said. i was looking at the james brown wig. >> i had to take a moment of leader pelosi's time to discuss the ugly attack on her california colleague, maxine waters. here's more of our interview. >> i have to ask you about your fellow california congresswoman who was disrespected on the air on fox news this week. and what you make of the tone

toward congresswoman maxine waters toward hillary clinton still. toward women in the current political climate. what do you make of it? >> well, the -- what they -- maxine, of course, is strong, effective, and that makes her a target. you know, you're not a target if you're not effective. that's what i always say about myself. but the -- they picke the wrong person with maxine. but that's their attitude. there's a condescension. there's just no question about it. toward women. and i say sometimes it's not a big thing. it's a thousand nicks. but that's their problem. women can't be worried about that and maxine certainly isn't. but it was revealing as to how oblivious they are that you don't talk that way. you don't -- it is completely out of the question. so hopefully they learned a lesson. maybe they'll even reform their thinking about their attitude

toward women and to make a statement that was sexist, racist, everything. it's stupid. it's stupid. so anyway, viva maxine. she's so great. and she's so good at what she does. as our top democrat on the financial services committee. >> yeah. i think you will get a viva maxine amen from our "a.m. joy" audience. leader nancy pelosi, so great to talk to you. thank you so much. >> good to be with you. thank you. and coming up, my all-star panel is here to react to that interview and so much more, next. yeah, so mom's got this cold. hashtag "stuffy nose." hashtag "no sleep." i got it. hashtag "mouthbreather." yep. we've got a mouthbreather. well, just put on a breathe right strip and ... pow! it instantly opens your nose up to 38% more than cold medicine alone. so you can breathe ... and sleep. shut your mouth and say goodnight mouthbreathers.

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there should be some adults in the republican party who would say, please, you bring dishonor to the office of the president by making it look like it's a personal acquisition of yours. no, it is a -- public responsibility. honor it. >> on friday, i got a chance to speak with house minority

leader, nancy pelosi, about michael flynn's request for i am munt, and here with me, politics editor at the root, jason johnson. jennifer reuben and dana milbank from "washington post" and republican strategist, sara rum. i'm coming to you with nancy pelosi's question, and she has said and you have written, and i read your column, why don't republicans at some point say to donald trump, you're not honoring the office of president? where are those republicans? >> there are very few of them, unfortunately. this was the problem during the campaign, this was the problem during the transition. there are a few, and unfortunately, right now paul ryan isn't one of them. and until the speaker of the house takes some really strong action, nothing is going to happen. minority leader pelosi is absolutely right. for him to encourage or consent in any fashion for nunes to pull this ridiculous stunt. to go to the white house, to in essence have information

laundered through him, to disregard his own committee is really reprehensible. and frankly, i'm a little surprised at paul ryan for doing that. whether you agree with him or not, in the past his judgment has been better than this. >> and, you know, dana, you have the "washington post" saying ree sources from the white house, word the source of it this information that nunes received. he lied directly to journalist who is asked him that question. eli lake asked him, was your source the white house, and he said no. why is paul ryan still standing behind devin nunes in your reporting? >> it really is extraordinary that -- what the speaker is doing here. and i think going beyond what many in his party would do if given the chance to do. now, you -- in your interview with minority leader pelosi, she was indeed saying that this is not a problem with the committee, it's not even a problem with republicans on the committee. it's a problem with the chairman. and i think that is an important

point there. it's not clear to me why paul ryan is going so far out, risking himself to protect this president when i think even a lot of members within that caucus, and we saw it on health care, are not so frightened of the president. >> and jason, you have now had the ranking member on that very committee sort of out nunes as being dishonest on its face in terms of what he saw and whether it warranted the kind of dramatic press conference. adam schiff saw it and wrote a letter on his twitter after he saw the documents, which he was told were the same exact documents that nunes saw. what he said in his statement was nothing i could see today warranted a departure from the normal review procedures. these materials should now be provided to the full membership of both committees. the white house has yet to explain why senior white house staff apparently shared these materials with but one member of either committee only. he's outed them. >> he's outed them and i think this is why former speaker

pelosi, and i think she made a good point, this is why this committee shout be giving flynn immunity. this is why this committee is so compromised. when it's a compromised committee, because of the leadership, you don't want to be in a position where you're already giving immunity to people who are still knee-deep in the kind of corruption and the co inclusion we think is likely happening with the white house. i think not only is she on the right track here, but i think the focus on we have to make sure that this committee has some semblance of integrity moving forward is very important. >> sara, the leader -- leader pelosi also said she -- several democrats have expressed this feeling, that she has more faith in the senate process, or that she would like to see the senate process go forward. but she also made the case, as many people have, for an independent commission. is there any appetite in the republican party, as you understand it, to do an independent inquiry into russiagate? >> we need to be specific on the terms. an independent commission is actually something that has to be passed with a law and require

the president's signature, which we're not going to get here. but a bipartisan select committee is something that congress itself has the power to form, and with the antics and press conferences that shm nuchs was engaging, there is supposed to be a balance of powers. and when the exact thing that they're tasked with investigating, the trump transition team, people on the trump campaign, people in the trump administration, for the chairman to go running to the white house with information and to discuss things before he was talking with his own committee members, you know, that -- that's a problem. i do understand -- you know, i find myself in the odd position of, you know, finding a couple things to agree with pelosi on here. the way the chairman conducted himself here, there are good reasons there's questions. >> yeah and just to be clear, i think you were talking about independent counsel. it has to be reauthorized by congress. they can do a select committee on their own, and i think that's

what sarah was getting at. jennifer, it is interesting the different styles here that you see between leader pelosi when she was speaker and paul ryan. i mean, leade pelosi had a fractious caucus too. you remember that health care pass. passing obamacare was not easy. there were parts of the democratic seahawks that didn't want anything to do with parts of that bill. but her style really did seem to be to sort of embrace and bring people around. i'm not sure what paul ryan is trying to do here. the one place where he has shown absolute loyalty, as far as i'm concerned, has been to nunes. because he hasn't shown necessarily with the freedom caucus. what is going on here? >> you know, i sort of had the feeling that -- i always keep saying speaker pelosi, minority leader pelosi was going to say -- can anyone play baseball around here? because really, it's a clown show. i think she's right. he rushed this out because he did need the money for tax reform, and because he wanted to have a quick win. and he has not done this before. he has not been able to govern,

because he has always had either -- not the minority. he's been in the minority in the house, or a democrat in the white house. so he's got to start thinking, how do i actually get people in the tent? just because i have a fancy white paper and it looks so great on paper and i can do a powerpoint presentation on tv doesn't mean my members believe it or go along with it or want it. and maybe i should start the process that, to his credit, president obama did, where you spend over a year talking your numbers, talking to the country. and it was a gross error. and i think he has had this misconception from the get-go that if they just enable donald trump a little more, they would get all of their good conservative items. i think that's wrong. that's not who he is. it doesn't make it happen, because many of these items are popular. and what's more, it's destroying paul ryan's credibility, because it's not enough. even if he would get what he would want, is that really worth the office of the presidency? is that worth allowing

interfence by a foreign power into our election? i really think he needs to do me soul-searching and come back and figure out what he can do to protect the institution of the congress and what his greater responsibility is, rather than to -- a tiny little item on an agenda, which in the big scale of things is not that huge. >> yeah. >> yeah, i completely agree with what jennifer is saying here. i've always said, this a very frightening end of "empire" moment. when you're more concerned with domestic policy than the sovereignty of the united states of america. i looked at old interviews when she became speaker pelosi in 2007, and she just had, be even then, even ten years ago, so much more of a grace, a style and a strategy and a charisma. paul ryan still seems like the kid who got elected class president at the last minute because he knew a bunch of teachers and he doesn't seem to have the respect -- >> if i could -- if i could add something, joy. >> dana milbank. >> if i could add something, it

may be fairly simple here. whether you loved nancy pelosi or hated nancy pelosi, you knew she was a strong leader. she ruled that caucus with an iron fist. you did not defy her. she knew where the votes were and how to bring the votes out. what paul ryan is doing, he seems to be a frayed of his own members. afraid of the white house, afraid of the freedom caucus. he needs to get out there and lead. he may lose his job for it, but there are some things worth losing your job for. >> sarah, i wonder if -- it's either that the people who have given paul ryan all this credit for being a wonder kin for all of these years, which i think was overblown. he would hold white papers and people would say he is brilliant. is it because the things he's passionate about are things that almost no one else in the country are passionate about? he really seems to want to get rid of medicaid. he seems to be passionate about privatizing medicare, passionate about cutting taxes on the wealthy, something other americans do care about. is it a problem he's not passionate about anyhings

donald trump actually ran for president to do? >> i don't know that i would characterize speaker ryan's passions that way. i've always viewed him as somebody that did enjoy the details of budgeting. i honestly was shocked with the way that the ahca came out, because there's been conservative think tanks that have been putting forward the kind of wonky numbers oriented research that speaker ryan has shown an affinity for. we have an issue where we have more people who are technically insured, but that doesn't mean they're getting any more access to health care. we showed 14 million people on to the medicaid roles and there is a death toll from this. the illinois policy institute did a study and since the general assembly, there have been over 750 people who have died being on waiting lists for critical care in illinois. that's -- we want people to have better health care. we don't want to just be shoving

them on to medicaid. we already have a problem with doctors not wanting to take medicaid patients because they just can't pay their bills with the little amount of money that's paid. i know doctors back in florida who would rather do pro bono work for free than have to pay their staff to do the complicated paperwork for the very low reimbursement rate for medicaid. we have a real problem. >> it sounds to me like you're making an argument for congress, doing a better job of the doc fix in funding medicaid. i think the problem is, and jason, i'll throw this to you, the fundamental objection to medicaid i've been hearing when i have republicans on, they don't think able-bodied adults should be on it at all. and what sarah is talking about, the issue of doctors not wanting to do it because of the reimbursement rates, i hear that too. i've got doctors in my family. >> we're taking money away from congress and the children and elderly, that need it. >> no, you're not, the poor and children and elderly on it. >> most people already have it. this is what we were talking about here with this -- this could be fixed. right? it could. there are things they can fix on a structural -- administrative

level at a lower level in places like ohio where they already have medicaid expansion. you can fix these things. this congress is not interested in fixing. they're interested in replacing. >> real quick, before we go. >> there are sane republicans out there. and the republicans who have fixed medicaid are, my goodness, governor pence. >> he did -- he did -- >> and governor kasich in ohio. >> we're going to keep this whole panel around. we have so much more to talk about. we're passionate about medicaid no, ma'am coming up at noon, new ethical questions about ivanka trump and her husband, jared kushner as documents reveal their businesses are worth $740 million. what does it mean for their roles in the white house? up next on "a.m. joy," my guests are going to tell me, the big question, who won the week.

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yvette nicole brown with us right here to discuss her upcoming documentary on the country's infrastructure crisis. i may ask her about the walking dead, as well. also be sure to check out my newest column for the daily beast, entitled the political walls are closing in on donald trump. and when you do, ask yourself, if you walk out on your own signing ceremony over questions about russiagate, how freaked out might you be about russiagate? >> you're going to see some very, very strong results very, very quickly. thank you very much. >> mr. president, were you trying to tell the justice department to grant immunity to michael flynn? were you trying to do that, mr. president? is that your intention, mr. president, sir? mr. president, was that your intention, mr. president? was that your intention, sir? i have asthma...

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time to ask my guests, our favorite question, who won the

week. all become with me. i'm going to you, dana milbank. who won the week? >> the real answer, joy, when you have a week like there, there are no winners. but there are only losers in the united states of america. but if of america. but if i was going to pick one, i would say it's mark meadows, chairman of the house freedom caucus. trump went after him and others by name, has gone after him repeatedly. he's doing just fine in his home district in north carolina because he's got core conservative support. this is what the president fundamentally hasn't realized. he was able to bully his way to the nomination and the presidency. he's not going to be able to bully his way to legislative victories. >> it's interesting, dana, and i was saying this the other night. george will and i finally agree on something, which is that the freedom caucus actually understand they're a co-equal branch of government and act like it. i wonder why more republicans don't do that, why do you think? >> they always talk a good game about their article 1 powers and

you find out otherwise when their party is in power that they're going to behave differently. these guys have been consistent. i'm with you, i don't agree with them ideologically, but they are making a principled stand. >> absolutely. sara rump, who won the week? >> i have to agree. i'd say just the freedom caucus in general. their motivation is wanting to be conservative but not beholden to the party establishment. this past week really established that. when the president went after that, it made him look weak and them lk rong so this gives me some hope for the rest of the republicans that maybehey can see it is possible to get mean tweets from the president and survive. get a backbone, everybody, you can do it. >> do you anticipate the freedom caucus doing the same thing, let's say, if donald trump decides to propose a trillion dollar infrastructure tax cut bill? >> i would hope that they would continue sticking with the conservative ideals that their

voters trusted when they voted them into office. >> well, i think they're going to say absolutely no and maybe hell no to a trillion dollar spending. jennifer reuben, who won the week? >> i'm going to go obscure on you. the georgia sixth congressional district, the district that tom price held. he's obviously now our secretary of hhs. it is an open seat. it has always been a very solid republican seat. it's in the sort of northern part of atlanta in the atlanta suburbs. there is a democrat running, a young guy by the name of jon ossoff. right now he is way ahead of what is going to be a multi-person field. if he gets 50%, they're not even going to have a runoff. right now he's at 40. the closest republican is at 20. the democrats saw this coming, put a lot of money into his campaign. he's running ads. he's young, he's energetic and he has made this about a referendum on donald trump. >> interesting. >> if he wins this seat, ike you'll see a lot of nervous

republicans. >> i predict that you will see him on "a.m. joy" very soon, i think. i'm going to make that prediction because that is very interesting and it's a bellwether. sarah rumpe and i were talking about this yesterday because it's running against the president and for 2018. >> and this is not a democratic district at all. this should be a slam dunk for them. price was there for years. >> nunes district, a l of theseuys think they may be safe and may not be safe. >> how did we win the week? colin kaepernick won the week. >> how so? >> it was a quiet meeting this week with seven members of the nfl meeting with members of congressional black caucus talking about police and african-american community relations. this is something people would have been afraid to touch two or three years ago. but colin kaepernick, because of the stand he took, the money he made and the fact he hasn't backed down has empowered players, even free agent players, to take a stand.

>> do you think he winds up getting signed? >> he'll get signed. >> that's very interesting. yeah, he was seen as maybe having lost the week last week because he wasn't able to ink a deal. well, i have a few nominees for who won the week. my first nominee and we'll put it to a vote at the end is a guy named jason johnson. johnson. jason johnson, who i believe won the week with what they are calling in the twittersphere, the kids are calling it the schlappdown. roll it. >> racism. >> i spent years sitting in that briefing room. >> yes, i do. you don't experience it. >> we love matt schlapp. i'm sorry, matt, don't tweet mean things. what was the issue at hand? >> i think the issue at hand -- look, i've met matt before. i was he was angry and intimidated about the fact an african-american man told him he is not the arbiter racism. our second nominee is one

george takai, from "star trek." he tweeted, well, the cat's out of the bag it seems. let's do this in 2018. this came about because a small blog that george and his husband have moved into the district occupied by devin nunes and they had bought a house here wh the goal of george takei running for congress. he took over twitter and basically broke twitter. we would love to find out, george, if this is an april fool's jok fool's joke, because today is april fool's. and it turns out that, drum roll, it is! it's an april fool's joke. i too was april fooled by george takei. i think i'm not going to take a vote. george won the week because he did that. my last nominee for whom won the week and always wins every week, my girl, rachel maddow.

it is her birthday today. happy birthday, rachel maddow. you win every week. not only are you killing it in the ratings, you are also a diva in terms of making sure that everybody knows what they need to know about russiagate. she's my pal and she's great. so thank you all very much for being here. does anybody want to vote? >> i vote for sulu. >> i was going to say oh, my. >> you win the week, joy, for that list. >> what were you saying? >> you win the week for that list. >> the answer of who won the week is always the best answer is i won the week. dana, thank you very much. you get the door prize. really appreciate you all being here. thank you all for being here, love this panel. that is our show for today. be sure and join us tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern time for much more "a.m. joy." coming up next, sheinelle jones talks to a biographer of donald trump whether he saw these

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marie callender's it's time to savor hello, i'm sheinelle jones in new york at msnbc world headquarters. it's high noon in the east, 9:00 out west. it's day 72 of president trump's presidency. here's what's happening. $740 million, new numbers attached to ivanka trump and her husband. the ethics questions being raised given their white house roles. the top democrat on the house intelligence committee meeting face to face with the president to talk about the russia investigation. plus, more members of congress holding town halls and getting an earful. >> i want to know as far as russia, i want to know what is going on. i want to know about the contacts. >> speaker ryan made a major mistake. health care is something that is very important, it's very personal, it's very complex. i'm glad that the freedom caucus seems to b