good morning. welcome to "a.m. joy." so this week in foreign affairs felt a lot like choose your own adventure story. so many possible endings to choose from. though none of them are too enticing. will we go to war with north korea or as donald trump sends missiles into syria will we stumble into a war with assad's patron, russia, or as tensions in the area escalate, could syria become the new iraq? here's secretary of state rex tillerson on that last option. >> we believe that the first priority is the defeat of isis. and once the isis threat has been reduced or eliminated, i

think we can turn our attention directly to stabilizing the situation in syria. we're hopeful that we can prevent a continuation of the civil war. and that we can bring the parties to the table to begin the process of political discussions. >> meanwhile, nikki haley the u.s. ambassador to the united nations has a somewhat different take. >> regime change is something that we think is going to happen because all of the parties are going to see that assad is not the leader that needs to take place in syria. >> joining me is a member of the armed services committee is is a congressman. are you able to tell us from your perch on capitol hill which person speaks for the trump administration, nikki haley or rex tillerson on foreign policy? >> that's part of the problem, there's not a consistent message. i have deep concerns with the missile strikes. it's almost as if a nation hasn't learned its lesson. it's the invasion of iraq that

caused the problem in syria that led to isis. we saw the consequences of the attack in libya and it looks like we're making the same mistake again, taking a bad situation and making it worse. >> yeah. you this week were pretty scathing on thursday. you were one of a very small handful of democrats who came out against those strikes. have we learned not from the disasters of iraq, libya and now syria? every time we have attacked since 2001, terrorism has spread. if not a military strike what do you think would be the right answer for how to deal with syria? >> well, i think we ought to go to the united nations, present the evidence of the appalling attacks. there's no question that assad's regime has been morally appalling and then do a number of things. one, call for an international t tribunal like we had in yugoslavia. i think we can get russia to cooperate because russia has a sunni muslim population. i mean, they have to be careful

with being too closely associated with assad's attacks and i think we need to support countries like germany that have universal jurisdiction and can prosecute war crimes and finally, now that the president seems to have some compassion for the children and civilians in syria, we ought to be providing humanitarian aid for the refugees. the 2 million refugees that are in turkey and taking more refugees. >> yeah. >> but i think we ought to work towards a peaceful solution and helping the civilians. >> i want to let you react to rex tillerson, the secretary of state on abc's "this week." this is just in the past hour him taking about our posture toward syria. take a listen. >> the strike was a message to basharl assad that your multiple violations of your agreements at the u.n., your agreements under the chemical weapons charter back in 2013, that those would not go without a response in the future and we are asking russia to fulfill its commitment. and we're asking and calling on

bashar al assad to cease the use of these weapons. other than that, there's no change to our military posture. >> i don't know if that seems coherent to you, but it sounded as if tillerson was throwing this back on the united nations and saying that it's the u.n. commitments that are operative here. have you seen any signs that the administration plans to go to the united nations and work through them as you have said they should? >> i don't. i don't understand why they wouldn't. i mean, if they have this evidence, why not take it to the united nations, make the moral case. we know that assad just yesterday was striking more civilians. i mean, he's killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. what are we going to do next time he uses barrel bombs to bomb civilians? so the strikes have not accomplished anything. all they have done is more american missiles which young syrians are going to be told that america is bombing their country and it will create another generation of hate. it's as if we haven't learned the lesson for 15 years.

you have americans who are weary of these interventions. there was a great article in "the boston globe" talking about how about we need to stop intervening in our first principle ought to be do no more -- to do no harm in the middle east. >> do you find it ironic that donald trump who the russians intervened in our elections to help get elected, they are also the guarantors of assad's regime and they're dismantling an agreement that prevents us from shooting at their pilots and shooting at their military people on the ground in syria. what does this do to u.s./russia relations do you think? >> well, it strains those relations. i mean, the election is an independent issue and we need a bipartisan, independent investigation to see what interference was there. but this does nothing in terms of getting russia, syria, iran on to the table like the geneva talks said we should. and having small cease-fires.

there are no good solutions to syria. it's not that i have a magic bullet and there is definitely moral culpability in the assad regime. anyone who saw those images of young kids being brutally gassed would have an emotional sympathy to the civilian -- loss of civilian life. the question though is what can we do to make the situation better and i believe the only answer is, cease-fires in different parts of the country that have all the players there and then a concerted effort to make the moral case to the international community. but one more point if i may. the problem with what we did is we lost the moral high ground. if we had taken the evidence to the international community, if we had taken it to the united nations, if we had called for an international tribunal to prosecute war crimes we could have put a tremendous amount of pressure on russia to listen to the international voice, international law and to listen

to the sunni populations in their own country. but instead we lost that moral high ground by launching missiles. i don't know what we advanced by doing that. >> congressman ro, thank you very much. joining me is lawrence wilkerson, retired u.s. colonel and a professor at the college of william & mary. i feel like we come back around to the same set of circumstances. the u.s. accuses a ba'athist regime of attacking its own people, says the international community must act. and then we act rather than waitinfor the international community to do anything about it. do you see the fportents of another iraq in syria? >> i listened to the comments of the congressman that preceded me and i agree with some of what he said, but some of it i don't. first of all, the reason we couldn't go to the u.n. and demand forensics investigation

and so forth is because we don't know who used those chemical weapons. we don't know how they were dispersed. that's the truth of the intelligence picture. we moved out precipitously and we did what we did for two basic reasons. one was foreign policy and that was to use some force against bashar al assad for the first time. first time against the legitimate government of syria so that we think we can gain high ground at the coming talks in our ability to negotiate. the second and more important reason was summed up this morning. trump yanks -- yanks -- russia away from democrats. that's precisely what he did. by this strike, he got a disparate audience such as graham and john mccain on the one side and fareed sa care ya on the other side proclaiming him president of the united states finally and so forth. so from the domestic point of view and lesser so from the

foreign policy point of view this strike worked for donald trump. that was the main reason for doing it. >> it's interesting that you say that because there's an interesting piece in the atlantic that talked about the russia side of it and donald trump managed to get russia off the headlines, out of the top headlines this week which i'm sure for him was welcome news. also it put the regime in russia in an interesting position because they are the gauarantor of assad's rule in syria. moscow has acted as assad's guarantor with putin having to assure that they'll no longer use chemical weapons. it gathered an international coalition to dispose of the chemical weapons only to have assad make moscow's effort look less than thorough or gruesomely insincere. so russia is in a strange position, they have to act. do you think the putin regime might not -- their outrage may

have been a bit of faux outrage to save face? >> i think so. i think we're intent on getting the political talks going because that's the only way to stop this brutal civil war. i don't think there was a lot of damage done there. i didn't mention something else that hr mcmaster and secretary of defense mattis were saying by the intended strike on syria, $79 million, $4 million apiece, that got across to kim jong un as is the strike group streaming right now. if we want to look at president trump and his business aura, i thinhe's trying to gain as much of possible of the high ground with regard to a number of threats to the united states right now. while i might in principle agree with that some of that,

strategically speaking, i think this is very dangerous especially when you consider the inexperience of the man making the decisions. >> yeah. and that is i think a huge thing. i mean, this is an extremely inexperienced team. nikki haley was governor of south carolina. and rex tillerson is an oil man. they don't have that senior diplomatic corps, trump dismissed all of the experienced diplomatic corps in the state department. so they're operating with the political folks. i want to talk about the specific issue of regime change. we heard that phrase creep back and neocons were excited to hear it. i want to play you donald trump from november of 2015 talking specifically about the consequences in his mind back then of trying to do regime change in syria. this is on "morning joe" back in 2015. >> if assad got knocked off, let's say they get knocked off, what do we have? we don't know if it's worse than assad. what are we doing? i think it's irresponsible for us to get bogged down in syria and maybe let's end up with

world war iii over syria where we don't want to be in the first place. >> should donald trump in the white house talk to donald trump from 2015 and maybe have a conversation with him? >> he should. that was wise council and i realize it was politically motivated at the time. he had to have had a personal investment in the remarks and it was interesting to see the transformation that took place. as i said i think that transformation is primarily for domestic, political reasons. >> yeah. lawrence wilkerson, colonel, thank you so much. it's always great to talk to you. >> thanks for having me, joy. up next, the trump administration floats an idea for dealing with north korea that you have got to hear to believe. stay with us. ray's always been different. last year, he said he was going to dig a hole to china. at&t is working with farmers to improve irrigation techniques.

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sno ju . just days after launching air strikes in syria, the trump administration is moving the "uss carl vinson" aircraft group closer to north korea. during his summit with china's president, he called on china to do more to stop north korea's nuclear program. last week, trump cold "the financial times," quote, if china is not going to solve new york new york we will. he did not clarify what that means. meanwhile, nbc news has learned that the national security council has presented trump with some to say the least controversial options if diplomacy fails. including putting u.s. nuclear weapons in south korea or even killing north korean leader kim jong un. joining me is the author of "nuclear showdown." and the president of the

plowshares fund and ann lee, author of "what the u.s. can learn from china." gordon, i'm coming to you first on these very outre ideas coming out of the national security council putting u.s. nuclear weapons in south korea or killing kim jong un. your thoughts? >> contact cal -- tactical nukes are something that they want. george w. bush withdrew tactical nukes from around the world and for good reason. if there are to be a general war there, the north koreans can capture them. and south koreans have been talking about kim jong un and the risks are so high, and jong il aboutry gaited the armistice and killing him is not against

the law. >> and the idea of killing jong un, this is the 11th hour on friday. >> first of all, it would be a violation of our current law to assassinate a head of state. internal attacks in north korea with special operation forces sound like utter nonsense. i don't think in this case you can bluff with military power. you can signal was military power. and if you're going to use military measures against north korea you better write down your objective and ethe side what you're trying to achieve. >> ann lee, do you have any sense of what it the that the trump administration is trying to achieve? we have heard a lot of bluster. do you get any sense of coherence and how crazy in your mind is this idea of going in and assassinating the leader of north korea? >> i think it's a very irresponsible option. certainly the trump administration has said that

they want to evaluate all options and so obviously they won't consider it. but i would say that this default into military confrontation would only indicate a failure of u.s. diplomacy. we have to understand why north korea is actually developing its nuclear program. and it's precisely because the u.s. has failed to give north korea assurances that they're not going to try to invade and attempt regime change there. and given that north korea has seen that the last strong man gadhafi gave up its nuclear program and saw what happened to him in which the west invaded libya and murdered him has given him all the more reason to go forward with the nuclear program because to the north koreans this is an existential threat and no amount of convincing from the chinese is going to convince them to give up these weapons for this reason.

so unless the u.s. actually steps up and says that, you know, we will not threaten you this way, then the north koreans aren't going to give them up. it's really interesting because proposals to turn the north korean peninsula and the south korean peninsula into the neutral state much like austria has been rejected by the u.s. and frankly, it's really -- it doesn't make any sense because this would be a situation where neither side is allied with the u.s. or china. but given that that has been soundly rejected by the u.s., this doesn't give a lot of wiggle room in terms of negotiations. >> right. >> so this is why it's leading to this brinksmanship. >> and you know, professor lee has said that what the north korean government there would want is assurances we're not

trying to overthrow them. saying out loud that assassinating kim jong un is son the table that's quite the opposite of that. >> yeah. the more you threaten kim jong un, the more he's going to increase his military deterrent. what he sees as a deterrent. i agree with gordon and ann on both these issues. these are really stupid policy options that are being presented. but just because something is stupid doesn't mean a president won't do it. putting nuclear weapons back in korea is stupid and here's why. one, we have no place to put them. we have no hardened facilities there, we have no secure storage sites. we eliminated all those 25 years ago when george w. bush pulled the weapons out. two, we don't have agreement from the south koreans to put them in. president bush -- president trump rather is not an emperor. he can't just go move weapons into other people's country and the liking incoming south korean government they don't want our

thadd missile defense system there. here's the third and probably the decisive reason -- we don't need them. we have approximately 2,000 nuclear weapons that we can deliver on target with exquisite accuracy any time we want. we have submarine launch ballistic missiles that can hit north korea within 12 minutes of a decision to do so. b-52s that could do it in hours. f-16s stationed in the united states that could do it in a matter of a day or two or before we're deployed to do it even sooner. so this is a nonsensical option, one designed more for bluster than serious policy consideration we hope. >> and gordon, we're not the only ones who have long range missiles, right? north korea has them too. this is not like threatening a country like iraq who we falsely -- the bush administration falsely claimed was developing nuclear weapons. north korea actually is. >> north korea is a nuclear weapons state. that's clear, they have had five

detonations. they're about to have a sixth one. they also have three missiles that can reach the lower 48 states. they just can't make a nuke to them, but the that's about four years down the road. houf however, they have made a nuke to t one missile and that ca threaten the region. of course they have the fourth largest military in the world which threatens south korea with conventional arms and chemical and biological agents. >> yeah. and the trump administration has made a big deal about trade. donald trump said a great friendship was formed with his mar-a-lago meeting. but what actually is the u.s. leverage to get china to do something about north korea if we cannot? >> well, i would say that the only leverage is really military force because that is what the u.s. strength is.

and by launching a syrian missile strike, it was a strong signal to china that the u.s. is crazy enough to violate international laws to do something like this. >> right. >> and so i think this is a scare tactic and it's designed to basically say china, you know, we don't need you if you're not going to do anything about this. we're going to act unilaterally, and i think that the chinese are well aware of, you know, reading between the lines here of what this means. and so they have basically tacitly said in their press that if the u.s. were to launch a surgical strike they can't stop it. and i think this is a major concession from china basically saying to north korea you know,

you're going to be on your own on this one and because china really does not want to get dragged into this. >> but -- i wish we had more time. gordon chang, and thank you all. >> thank you. >> is there anything that the democrats can do about white flight from the party? we'll ask the liberal red neck and consult our very own krystal ball. imagine if the things you bought every day earned you miles to get to the places

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versus them that is trump's stock in trade. we're looking at the economic revolution happening at the speed of the internet age and is leaving millions in our country behind. the central reality is that democrats must address to prevent the next more terrifying effective trump, unquote. and when we come back, she'll join us along with a special panel to discuss. to do the best for your pet, you should know more about the food you choose. with beyond, you have a natural pet food that goes beyond telling ingredients to showing where they come from. beyond assuming the source is safe... to knowing it is. beyond asking for trust... to earning it. because, honestly, our pets deserve it. beyond. natural pet food. we're on the move.

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and you say that liberals failed to reach working class americans. poor white people. how can we do that? what can we do as liberals to reach these people better? are you kidding me, really? what can we do? lie. what are you new here? welcome to america, man. lying to poor people is right up there with apple pie and getting drunk with bald eagles. that's what they did. that's what trump did and that's

it. and they ate it up like a deep fried oreo, lie. >> that was the liberal redneck of youtube fame. that is of course comedy but the question of whether white noncolleg noncolleg noncolleged degreed americans will come back to the democrats. and you can credit the trump's narrow win to white women and his win certainly re-ignited the decades long debate over whether they can once again be the party of the white working stiff. and joining me now is krystal ball. her new book is called "reversing the apocalypse: hijacking the democratic party to save the world" and it offers her proscription for wooing back white voters and preventing the rise of the next trump. i'm going to talk with her first. you just saw the comic version

of crjae crowder saying lie and "saturday night live" had an opposite take on that with donald trump doing his version -- i don't know if this is lying to the white american voters or lying to them. >> thank you for coming, sir. i guess i wanted to talk about my own child who's in the after school program. >> don't. >> it's just that i work two jobs for minimum wage. >> minimum wage, gone. gone. >> okay. perfect. it's just we can't afford a new house because my mortgage is under water. >> well, we're getting rid of that. >> my mortgage? >> no, your house. >> okay. and we can't even drink our own water because there's lead in it. >> no we're going to keep that no. >> at the end of that, the voter says you're still my president. why even bother to lie to white working class voters when donald trump says i'm taking your health care, they're like, we love you. >> well, i think it's going to take some time, rit?

people have this commitment tendency where when they vote for a candidate, they want to see the good in that person so it will take some time. but voters are going to know they're getting screwed over after they don't see the jobs come back, after they don't see the coal reminopen or the steel mills reopen. i'm not advocating here for pandering to the white working class and telling them what they want to hear or even trying to get the white working class back on board. what i'm arguing is that the problems that are afflicting not just the white working class, but the american working class in general are really central to the problems facing the world. i mean, we see the raise of trump here. we see nigel farage, we see brexit, le pen, even the things of isis, you can paint -- really draw a line to this massive economic transformation which has roiled the world. so the party doesn't need to change what they're about in terms of race and gender and

those incredibly important issues. but what we do need is a proscription for dealing with this economic mess. and saying you're going to lift the minimum wage is not enough. i mean, if you're someone, you're driving a truck let's say, you have a middle class life, now that job is being threatened by automation, you don't want to hear, well, i'll get you $15 and a minimum wage. you want to hear how you're able to reachieve that middle class life and that stability that you have come to depend on and you have come to be used to. what i want is for the party to figure out how we can focus on that economic solution that's going to include prosperity that helps all american workers to succeed in this country. >> and when you look -- if you look at donald trump's margins, he barely won in some of the states like pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin. he won by the tiny margins but you know i think one of the challenges is that people look at the margins and they say, wait a minute. this isn't because donald trump is a real champion of the working class.

it's because white voters in general are just republicans and there is no message even if you're saying we won't make you kansas. kansans vote for republicans and they know that democrats say -- saved the auto industry. but they want to vote for republicans even if you gave them an economic argument they want the wall. they want deportations. >> i live in kentucky now as you know. the interesting thing here is that democrats still win. we just had a democratic governor last time around and he was just recently ousted. we just lost control of the house. you still have democrats who win in places like east kentucky at the state level. but the national democratic party, the brand image in this part of the country has really taken a big beating and there's a sense that there's a condescension from the national party, they look down on voters in coal country and have an attitude of well, they're never going to vote for us anyways so we might as well write them off. now, maybe they won't come

around. maybe i'm completely wrong. but i think if you engage with the economic issues that are making life tough in these regions of the country, i think you have a shot at winning back the voters and i think we have to look at the type of the candidates that we're running. we tend vo this particular -- tend to have this particular lens of leadership. we love people who are educated at harvard, the ivy league. those folks are fantastic but we need to look at people who have lived the experience of the american worker. we need to look at the labor committee for the local leaders, we need to look at nurses and teachers and people who have served in the military who can connect on the cultural level better with their communities. >> i want to broaden this out. let's broaden this panel out right now. i want to bring in tray crowder, the liberal redneck and, we had great fun with your youtube

videos here at "a.m. joy." let's talk about what you heard from her. she is saying that the policies are proworker and pro working class. but is there anything that democrats could do to chan their e among pele in the white working class in your view? >> well, like i said in the video, you know, you have to lie to them. that's the thing. that's what really works. no, obviously that's a joke. i want to make that clear. i'm not advocating lying to my own people. you know? but as far as what can be done to rehabilitate that image, we -- when i say we, we on the left could stop having the arguments about, you know, referring to them as, you know, like frank rich's article, are they even worth saving? these kind of discussions, you know, would be a good place to start. >> but isn't the reality, a lot of white voters, period, the

democratic party's image is so defined by the idea they're constant i will seeking civil rights for non-white people. they are the party of civil rights for black people and for gay people and that white christians are just not a part of the mix. i mean, is there any lie you could tell that will take away that image? because that's what the democratic party has been doing for the last 60 years. >> right. i mean, that's fine. i don't think that, you know, that that is -- or should necessarily be a problem with these people that, you know, it's the party of equal rights. it's just that -- not just the demoats but foa long time these people, my people, felt like literally no one cared about the things they were going through and then a guy showed up who pretended to and now he's the champion of the working poor. even though like you said that's not entirely accurate. but you know they were just desperate for something to believe in i think in a lot of instances. you know what i mean, for somebody to believe in them

basically. >> jason, is there -- do you have a concern that the democratic party in trying to find this alchemy, to find this formula to win back white voters, to have a message that's inclusive and trae said that's concerned about them that they neglect their base, meaning neglecting people of color? >> yeah, joy, that can be in the lab with a pen and a pad working on the best features in the world. it doesn't change the fact that these people -- when have we ever had an american election that wasn't about white working class people? whether it was reagan democrats or nascar dads, that's what everyone is trying to get and they don't like to vote for democrats. it doesn't matter what you say or do. so what i think the democrats should focus on is look, strong economic policy, making sure we respect the people culturally and it was great that you showed those margins there. you know what those margins in wisconsin were and those margins in michigan and those margins in pennsylvania, those were people who had been expunged from voter

rolls. if they spent mo time on voter suppression they wouldn't have lost the states. that's fine, but it's not going to win back the blue states. >> i think we need to look beyond this past presidential election and look at what's happened in the country. the republicans have enough state legislatures to themselves you knunilaterally to have a constitutional convention. that's a how badly the democratic -- >> isn't that proof that white voters want to vote republican? >> no, not at all. that's a recent phenomenon that that that's happened. what we have had is the party has -- this is going to sound negative but collapsed down just to those civil rights piece which are incredible important, but we don't have is an economic message. we are not actually dealing with this economic crisis which is is roiling not only our own country but the globe. the top three occupations in the

country fast food workers essentially, cashier and sales clerk. all three jobs by the way which are in danger of being automated. so what are we going to do, what are we going to say when we don't only have a crisis of not enough good jobs in this country but just not enough jobs? the party needs to focus on that. i think if we do, we will win back american workers of every color. >> trae, i'm giving you a last word on this. only 3% of the trump voters regret their votes. can you foresee a time when folks in your community are back to voting for democrats? >> yeah, i'm glad you say back to voting because in my specific instance, my home county was historically a blue county it's very small and rural and that didn't make much difference in the state of tennessee. i think that's the reality. i'm a comedian, i'm on the road and i hear about people you know regretting their decision to vote -- to vote for trump. starting to think they may have

made a mistake and i agree with what krystal was saying, it's really early, it's a few months in. i think that will continue to happen as they see him consistently fail them the way he will. i think they'll come around at least on trump and maybe leave the door open for us to grab some of them back. >> all right. this is a fascinating debate. we'll continue to have it on the show. krystal ball and trae crowder, thank you and jason johnson will be back later on in the hour. congrats on the book. >> thank you. coming up, the great lawrence o'donnell will have the last word on bill o'reilly's terrible, horrible, no good very bad week. but first, we'll talk about this guy. oh, yeah. stay with us.

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looking for in the congressional races in 2018. >> in the next year's midtern elections. >> getting into campaign mode for 2018. >> as the country looks ahead to the next set of big races, trump and republican congress people are not the only ones worried about 2018 and their re-election bids. this guy might have a tough 2018. you probably recognize him by his cowboy hat. he's milwaukee county sheriff david clark. he's known most recently as a defendant in two new federal lawsuits which allege that clark's jail had a practice of shackling pregnant women during labor. for the high rate of deaths in his jail. for visiting russia in this hat rather than his usual wide brim. and for being both a staunch trump supporter and a registered democrat. you heard that right. well, this week we learned that sheriff clark will face some serious opposition next year. on wednesday, former police captain ernell lucas filed to

step up to bat against clark in the august 2018 primary. now that he faces some opposition and national notoriety will clark decide against running for a fifth term d will he go for a bigger job instead? more on that after the break.

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♪ ladies and gentlemen, i would like to make something very clear. blue lives matter in america! many americans increasingly have an uneasiness about the ability of their families to live safely in these troubling times. this transcends grace, religion, ethnicity, gender, age and lifestyle. >> the trump supporting sheriff of milwaukee county who claims he's a democrat will face some opposition from a major league baseball executive during the august 2018 democratic primary,

that is if clarke decides to run again. his approval rating in milwaukee county stands at 31%. thanks to both of you being here. senator taylor, i'm going to start with you. sheriff clarke recently lost one of his top deputies edward bailey retire ted end of march. he's got the letters going out. do you think he will stay in that primary and try to run for re-election? >> i would hope so because it's going to be such a fun primary seeing us make him lose for the first time, i believe that with everything i have. i question -- i'm sorry, i question if he really will run. he has kind of suggested he's going to run for another office. >> yeah. and as a matter of fact there is a draft clarke for senate movement, charlie sikes, running to get him to switch jobs or maybe the senate or get him into the trump campaign.

his travel schedule, he's all over the country speaking. raising money as a public speaker. do you see in sheriff clarke who still wants to be sheriff and what more people die in his jail? >> it's an interesting question because i'm sure he would like to keep wearing that uniform when he goes on fox news. >> sure. which is the only time we've seen him around here. he's awol. he's basically bailed on milwaukee. i actually don't see him running for re-election. i think he thinks he's bigger than the sheriff's job. and he's transformed himself into this mini trump wannabe. and that's his career trajectory. >> and senator, how is it that he gets full-on democratic voters. we know republicans support him in the primary. you cross over, you guys have open primaries. particularly black voters have not caught on to this guy? >> well, you have to remember, we had a black sheriff before, and the sheriff really has talked a really good game. he's become more or less

connected with the 54s i would argue the longer he's been elected. he deserved them he said he was a democrat, however everything he's done has been with the republicans even when he said the quote of crossing over to the other aisle. he acts as if he's a republican but i think he's forgot he runs as a democrat. but the older democrats in particular has been with sheriff clarke, god rest her soul, polywilliams was a huge advocate for him and spoke on his behalf on black radio and took him on. and really was the person who gave him credibility, well, she's gone. >> and charlie sikes, a long time very supportive of this guy, you admitted your change of heart that you think he's been awol. would republicans get behind him if he wans against tammy baldwin for the united states senate? >> no, i think it's going to be cruded.

i do think sheriff clarke in the last year has declowned himself. i refer to him as my frankenstein monster. there was a time that sheriff clarke had things to say but clearly the big hat has gotten the best of him. i don't see that as a plausible future for him. >> and lena taylor, is there a job that sheriff clarke could do? could you think of career options for him at the end if unemployed? >> you know, i can'think of a job that i want him to have, joy. >> do you need him in the legislature? >> i would never hire him. i'm so glad that charlie and i agree that david clarke is all hat and no cattle. >> we specifically tried to get lena taylor and charlie sykes on tv. friend of the show.

coming up, lawrence o'donnell is here to talk bill o'reilly. and he'll do it live. more on "joy" next. there's nothing more important to me than my vacation. so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. they offer free cancellation if my plans change. visit booking.com. booking.yeah. may not always be clear. but at t. rowe price, we can help guide your retirement savings. so wherever your retirement journey takes you, we can help you reach your goals. call us or your advisor

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ask your doctor about lyrica. ♪ in this country, every famous powerful or wealthy person is a target. i'm a target. anytime somebody could come out and sue us, attack us. go to the press or anything like that. >> last year, when fox news host bill o'reilly broke out his tiny violin to put a sad song for a famous, powerful and wealthy man accused of repeatedly sexually harassing women he was talking about the network's ousted ceo roger ailes. and now fast forward, o'reilly is playing the role of the wealthy man for himself. after "the new york times" investigation uncovered $13 million in payouts by fox news and o'reilly to five women to settle claims that he had sexually harassed him. o'reilly who denies the merits of the claims released a

statement saying just like other prominent and controversial people, i'm vulnerable to lawsuits from individuals who want me to pay them to avoid negative publicity. since the report, advertisers have been dropping the show like it's hot. so far, more than 50 companies have pulled their ads from "the o'reilly factor" and thursday's o'reilly show had seven national advertisers down from 31 from the night before, and 55 at the beginning of the week. however, where advertisers have abandoned him, fans of the his books have remained oil. "old school" is topping the list on amazon, barnes & noble. and it could also be number one on the list of most ironic books, advice on how men should treat women with respect. joining me now is the host

of msnbc's "last word" lawrence o'donnell. >> joy, i can hear you, you don't have to up the volume. >> we'll do it live! >> yes. that's where it's coming from. >> so, lawrence, bill o'reilly says just being a wealthy and powerful man means you're a target for sexual harassment lawsuits. i know a few wealthy and powerful men. i don't know any who are being sued? >> i for one are not wealthy and powerful enough to have a stack of lawsuits against me. so, here's two words to counter that -- sean hannity. fox news is a cesspool of sexual harassment and abuse of women as they've discovered in their own investigation. sean hannity's name never, ever, ever comes up. no one has ever sued him for sexual harassment. tucker carlson who hasn't been there as long.

steve doocy. i'll just rattle off the names who you've never heard this happen and there's that guy bill o'reilly saying, oh, it happens to all of us, much more famous in show business who have never been sued. >> yeah. >> people from the zuckerbergs in business, never ever, been sued for this. so that is -- there's just no basis in that particular offense of it happens to all of us. when he was sitting on that talk show, he's the only one that happened to, he's sitting beside a famous guy who was rich, too. hasn't happened to him. >> you issued a tweet this week. essentially, he's threatening to sue when any one of these accusers, saying go ahead and sue me. you have yet been sued by bill o'reilly? >> no, his lawyer a week, his lawyer threatened wendy walsh.

she was the woman in the article who had not sued bill o'reilly. she was permitted to speak freely because she had not entered into a settlement agreement. so she told the full story. immediately what those lawyers do, they threaten someone like that and say we're going to sue you for defamation. now, to be defamed in the area of sexual harassment, you would have had no record in the area of sexual harassment. bill o'reilly is not defamable in this territory. so, i just wanted to leap out as quickly as possible and take that punk lawyer working for bill o'reilly and prove what a fraud he was. he's as fraudulent as bill o'reilly. and say, look, i believe wendy welsh. sue me too, because i believe her. and i'm going to say it on television which i've said many times. i believe that bill o'reilly

sexually harassed wendy walsh. i believe that bill o'reilly is a sexual harasser. according to o'reilly's thug lawyer, i'm suable now. go ahead, go ahead, bill o'reilly, sue me now. i dare you. a thousand reasons why he won't including that he's actually guilty of these things. that's the biggest reason. he wouldn't dare which i get to be put under oath in a deposition in questions about wendy walsh. >> i think what bill o'reilly's current situation, it's part of what he does on the show is demoralizing, quite frankly, people of color and women and talking down to people that he's this moral arbiter. when he decided to go after pepsi who having rapper leudacrs

as his speaks person. let's listen. >> it was irresponsible of pepsi cola. companies make trillions of dollars in the united states who hire a man who pitch their product who is in my opinion subverting the values of the united states. just not ludacris, all of corporate america in my opinion needs to rethink their responsible responsibility to this country. >> how is it this guy who has this many cases of sexual harassment who appears to be serial. is the chief moralizer at fox news? >> is there a structure to this? i've been saying for a week now, bill o'reilly needs his handle -- the difference between bill cosby and bill o'reilly is hannibal burris. everything that hannibal burris said in his stand-up routine is roane.

he doesn't create any information. he used all the public information. he put it on his stand-up routine. it went viral online. and it framed bill cosby in the way he hadn't been framed before. and we need the stand-up to do that. there's an unique power to that approach to this kind of -- see, when i do it, people just think, oh, that's another cable news guy on another network. >> right. >> who is on a competitive environment with that network and all that -- and that's true. i can't deny that that competitive environment exists. so, i will never have the power that hannibal burris had with bill cosby, even though the audience he was speaking to was much smaller than i speak to. so we need that hannibal burris character to step forward on o'reilly. my theory he will once again get normalize. business bill o

because bill o'reilly is a constant guest on the late shows. the reason is, he's good for ratings. "the daily show" had him. this year, they did jokes about him. my question is what does bill o'reilly have to do that makes them so uncomfortable that they cannot sit on the set with many 50,000 of o'reilly's viewers. >> one who did take on o'reilly is "saturday night live" in which alec baldwinlad both o'reilly and donald trump. there's some interesting nexus there. >> they're the same guy, it's o'reilly as president. >> yeah. here they are last night. >> thank you, mr. president. and thank you for coming to my defense last week even though no one asked you to. you even went as far as saying, quote, bill o'reilly did nothing wrong. >> that's correct. >> that's based upon? >> hunch, just hunch. >> so you're not familiar with

the facts of the case. >> i'm more familiar with this case than i am, say, health care, but i didn't really look into it much, no. >> roger ailes, bill o'reilly, donald trump, three people with something very unique and common in this idea of being sexually harassment towards women. or just the general attitude toward women. have we reached the era where we're at the upside down version of the age of women, this ethos, this attitude is prevalent and it's clearly running through the dna of fox. >> interesting report on "the new york times" about fox/o'reilly viewers and women, plural, who watch the show and continue to watch the show. you know, one of the perverse things that happens whenever sexual harassment charges come out against bill o'reilly as they have more many years now. is theatings go up and the ratings go up because they want to see what bill o'reilly is

going to say. his ratings went up because this week, he's desperately scared, not saying a word. he's been terrified into abject silence. so those ratings will flatten out, flatten out meaning they'll go back to their regular very high plateau. >> right. >> but the dynamic of audience support is something you just can't break. because people watch fox news. there's a lesson to this. there's been a lesson all along in this business. which is it's not so much they're watching the individual hosts. they're not. megyn kelly leaves, tucker carlson comes in. nothing happens to the ratings, except that they go up. which means they weren't really watching megyn kelly, they were watching fox news. you could replace anybody there and the ratings stay where they are. o'reilly has an unique hold on his audience. he's the one who i believe has the strongest hold on the audience. and that's why they book him on other shows all the time to view

in these other places is because they believe he has a hold on his audience. and the book business shows that he has a hold on his audience that is different than everybody else at fox. these conditions show that he has a hold that's pretty strong. when this stuff comes out, completely contradicts everything in his new book and everything about what he preaches. and they hang in there with him. you know, that's something that he's developed with that audience over a long period of time. but it's also because every night he's saying exactly what will they want to hear about everything. >> but the question then becomes what is the tolerance of fox news for an ad-free enviroent. >> very simple. check the ratings. i remember when the firste th accusations came out against him, i had a friend who is very high-level position in that company. and the day of that first crisis, you know, where they had audiotape of him on the phone. where he was --

>> the loofah. >> and, so, i said, so this is a ratings question, right? he said, yeah. meaning when o'reilly goes back on the air, we're going to watch what happens to the ratings. if they go down, he's gone. if they don't, he's not. so he went back on the air. the ratings did not go down. in fact, they went up. because there was interest in what is this guy going to say. if the ratings went down, that would be the end of o'reilly. that would be the end of this. in the meantime, we're wait for hannibal burris. >> and promos. thank you my friend, lawrence o'donnell coming in on the weekend. coming up next -- rex tillerson finally has to make eye contact with america. don't go away. have fun with your replaced windows. run away! [ grunts ] leave him! leave him! [ music continues ]

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♪ russia should ask themselves what are we doing here? why are we supporting this murderous regime that is committing vast murder of its own population and using the most heinous weapons available. >> we are hearing new word from the trump administration including national security adviser h.r. mcmaster on the trump foreign policy doctrine or look thereof. joining me democratic pollster of author of "black man in the white house." kerstin hagland. and michael nedved nationally sind greated radio talk show host. i'm going to you, mike, you're at a disadvantage not being at the table with us. you have been able to, just observing the trump administration over the last week come to some understanding of what is their foreign policy doctrine? what is trump's doctrine?

>> they don't have one yet. it's in formation but i'm very, very encouraged because this is beginning to look more like a normal presidency. it's abnormal that they posted that big picture of president trump reaching that decision. and it was at mar-a-lago. it wasn't in the situation room in the white house. this general -- people have talked for a long, long time about people trying to move forward and resolve this serious human conflict this is beginning to look serious. and also the word being that steve bannon in the white house was opposed to this very limited even military strike and that there may be a white house staff shake-up, that's very encouraging to a lot of people who would like to see a more mainstream conservative republican presidency. >> kierstin, it is interesting, my "daily beast" column was basically donald trump became george w. bush this week.

his policies are looking more like bush. and that has caused consternation among the bannon wing of party. you have appearing people in the base of the party saying wait a minute this is george w. bush? >> well, the base of the party shoo came out for bush where they haven't before, yes, let's get our own house in order before we do this. and people on the alt-right running the websites, they feel completely betrayed. senator john mccain and lindsay graham as well as democrats being supportive of this. thisoo good for the reince priebus wing of the republican water party. >> well, good, unless you're concerned we're going to remain in a quagmire. on "face the nation" earlier this morning, i think what people are worried about whether you're a democrat or whether you're this base of the

republican party. take a listen. >> as i said again, taking this action, i support and was important. but we've got to have a strategy and plan to follow-through, just a one-time deal is not going to be productive. and saying we are only going after chemical weapons areas ignores the enormity of the problem. >> so, steve, i think what a lot of people are concerned about that part in the middle. just a one-time deal is not going to be productive. you now have the neocon saying, great, looks like we're going back to war. >> this is great. this is the question about donald trump, what is the leadership approach? where is the decision making approa approach? where do you stand saying stay out of syria. criticize sergeant easiest thing in the world. the fear i have about president donald trump, he wakes up, looks at a picture as if those pictures of those children who

were killed and everyone else gassed or killed whatever, means if used by assad in syria as if that were not happening for years. he has no information, no intel. no insight, no acknowledgement to acknowledge that he doesn't explain the change. my fear bottom line, day to day week to week, we don't know where we're going to be, that's scary. >> cornell, one of the reasons there is a sense of incoherence, the people that supposedly speak for this president on foreign policy don't seem to agree with each other. i'm going to play nikki haley, ambassador of the u.n., on "meet the press" earlier today. >> you know the interesting thing, chuck, is when this chemical weapons murder happened to so many people, russia's reaction was not, oh, how horrible. or how could they do this to innocent children? or how awful is that -- their

initial reaction was assad didn't do it. the syrian government didn't do it. why were they that defensive that quick? the idea of the casualties came after. the first priority for them was to cover for assad. >> very tough on russia and she has been the whole time. tillerson has been a little bit more all over the place. and the two of them have been all over. >> i actually listened to tillerson this morning. he sounds like john kerry. there's a slippery slope for the nation building here. beyond the missiles of today, to your point, senator rand paul has a point we need to have this debate about the slippery slope of presidential power. we now have a president who can see that picture on television and decide i'm going to launch $100 million worth of missiles, right? i think it's fair to say that the founders didn't have that in mind when they gave the congress the power here.

i think there should be -- broadly speaks for the americans moving forward. there should be a debate in congress about whether or not this is the sort of action that a president has the ultimate power to do. >> yeah. here's my reaction. i agree with just about everything you said except i'm glad that donald trump does have some empathy. i'm glad that he does feel and he looks at those pictures and has a visceral reaction. my fear, and i'm repeating it again, we don't know what the heck he was looking at for four years before that. he's so devoid of intellectual curiosit curiosity, again, emotional intelligence. like he just came up with this. he decided that health care was complicated, that's the problem. >> michael nedved, we see this knee jerk partisan reaction, when it's our guy in 9 use, congress doesn't seem that interested in weighing on whether we go to war with syria. they're willing to give donald

trump a free coin whether he's on one side or the other. since we don't have a check and balance in congress, does it concern you that donald trump is swayed by somebody whispering in his ear at the moment? >> one thing that this latest episode should suggest is that the allegedd bromance between donald trump and vladimir putin is over. with this is a show that putin and trump are still hand in glove. very clearly, now there's evidence across all administration between the russia of vladimir putin and the america of donald trump. do sigh agree with everything that's been said here that we need to find a way, we need a coherent policy, we need a trump doctrine? we clearly do. but i believe that's evolving. and certainly when you have people like general mcmaster who

is outstanding and people like general mattis at the pentagon, i think we will in the days ahead have a much more clearer articulation of what the administration needs to do. >> you have the putinites, they seem to be have been marginalized. they seem to be in the campaign part of the world. they're now out. and the people left in seem to be the traditional republicans. i want to listen to rex tillerson. friend of vladimir putin. this is how he sounds now talking about putin and assad. >> president putin called what happened on thursday a significant blow to the relationship of the united states? >> well, i guess i'm not too surprised that russia might make that statement. i will tell you, i'm disappointed because i think the real failure here has been russia's failure to live up to its commitments under the chemical weapons agreements

entered into in 2013. so, the failure related to the recent strike, and the recent terrible chemical weapons attack in large measure say failure on russia's part to achieve its commitment to the internaonal community. >> we'll quickly go around the table, starting with kierstin, what are the implications to put it like michael nedved, the bromance is over? >> well, we're favoring a regional if not goebel conflict. the good thing, multilateral there has been support for our allies for this strike. and i think we should also remember that for the people on the ground, for the syrians on the ground, there's a great "the new york times" article the sigh of cautious relief for these people who have wanted for years, wanted america, someone to take leadership and respond to this, so that they need a plan going forward. that is the bottom line. if they just say this is a one and done. then bashar al assad and russia

say that's a one and done. i guess i'll go to this line and look at a strike that doesn't cripple our air force. >> that's a point. planes are still taking off from that air base and assad is still attacking these people? >> right. we've got a commander in chief who has launched missiles and there will be a rallying effect around him. we still have not solved the problem. we nation-build or we pull back. >> i would like the president to be more disciplined. to stop the tweeting just because the mood moves him receives a picture. and he's more thoughtful. surrounds himself with people who are going to challenge him. get the intelligence and come to a decision when you have the information. don't react viscerally. that's what scares the hell out of me when it comes to president trump. >> michael, last word. >> the one thing that's most notable, this is the first generally bipartisan approval that president trump has gotten for anything.

even from hillary clinton. and basically advocated before trump authorized the strike precisely that kind of maneuver. i would suggest that president trump is very glad right now that he didn't lock her up, locker ulock locker -- lock her up. >> one thing you can get americans to agree on is that there no american war. i appreciate this panel. thank you, guys. up next, louis c.k.'s no holds barred "saturday night live" performance. with eye us.

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you're going to be hanging out in here. so if you need anything, text me. do you play? ♪ ♪ use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before. you got next? chase. helping you master what's now and what's next. "saturday night live" returned last night after a multiweek hiatus with host louis ck who used his monologue to tackle white privilege and laundry. >> i said i gave it to your department and i was promised -- like it's in the constitution that you get your laundry -- i was promised i'd have it in 24

hours and it's been longer. she said what do you want me to do about it? i got really mad, i said, listen, ma'am, first of all, you can hear in my voice that i'm white. [ laughter ] i'll defend that right now. i will defend that because, look, it's wrong that white people get preferential treatment, it's wrong. as long as they do, what's going on with this hotel? [ laughter ] i'm expected to get the best and i'm white which is awful and wrong. >> and of course, alec baldwin as donald trump. >> i just had an amazing week with leaders of china, and jordan. who has since confirmed everybody is saying nice things. what a difference 59 tomahawk missiles can make.

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you know, the only one that cares about my tax returns are the reporters. >> you don't think the american public concerned? >> no, i don't think so. i won, i mean, i became president. no, i don't think they care at all. i don't think they care at all. >> well, next weekend, americans all across the country are going to let donald trump know they disagree. on april 15 the day many americans will be scrambling to show the irs their tax returns, protesters nationwide will be demanding that donald trump show us his. a coalition of 69 grassroots groups are organizing marches in more than 120 communities around the country. the protests are expected to draw tens of thousands of people. and they'll be joined by a few giant inflatable chickens that kind of look like donald trump. joining me now is israel levin, executive director of the

"invisible project" one of the organizers of the march, back is cornell and kirstin and charlie sykes. what's the point of the rallies, do you honestly think rallies are going to make donald trump show his tax returns? >> the rallies are great. the rallies are showing members of congress that they need to do their jobs. these rallies are happening in 120 communities all across the country. in addition to washington, d.c. here's the bottom line, i don't know whether or not donald trump is engaging in a big cover-up of his business dealings or relatiship with russia. what we do know,embers of congress have the unilateral ability to find out and they're not using that power. the timing is not great because of tax base but also great because it smalls smack dab in the middle of recess. two weeks of quote/unquote

recess, members of congress go back home to their home states and list ton their constituents. what they want to hear from their constituents, we want to see donald trump's tax returns. >> you mean go home and be tormented. that's what recess is for members of congress is go home and get yelled at by their constituents. let's be honest, republicans in congress are essentially rubber stamping anything that paul ryan wants. do you think they can be shamed, shocked or tormented into legislating that he turned them over. i mean, congress can subpoena them in theory. i've seen no willnessing that they're able to do that. >> congress has no feeling on that for a reason. do they really care about constituents think for seven years, republicans have been promising to repeal baobamacare

the number one compare was implementing trump care to take health insurance away from 24 million americans and yet they couldn't do it. they didn't even have the vote. and the reason was is because people in every single congressional recess since february were telling their members of congress i will be dead or bankrupt without the affordable care act. and they changed their tune. we know that 74% of americans want to see donald trump's tax returns. we know that members of congress arresponsible to their constituentsnd they're going to hear that this coming saturday. >> this is from invisible about the tax day marches. >> despite from getting president trump to release his taxes. why is this a big deal? imagine you're watching a football game and you find out that the ref owns one of the teams. do you think he'll make fair decisions? until trump releases his tax returns, you don't know which side he's on, golf courses, mar

largo? >> do you think if he's owned the hotel from down the street that he's gotten away from that, the lpga is going to play their big tournament on a golf course owned by donald trump. he seems have gotten away with all sorts emollients. >> look, there's a reason why he hasn't released those returns. he has something to hide. we don't know what it is, in terms of the conflicts of interest, he obviously believes that the rules and the norms do not alie to him or to members of his family. so, you know, at some point the whole issue is going to become an issue again. i actually think the real impact is going to be on tax reform. re cans want to reform the tax code. they want to cut taxes but unfortunately, donald trump is going to be the poster child for, you know, the dysfunction of the tax system.

that's going to make their job already tougher, mufch tougher. >> i wish i had a pollster right now -- oh, wait i do. tell us why this is an issue. their attempt to do a tax cut does the did donald trump tax cut wind up being a factor for voters? >> i think it's a factor for midterm. i think what they're doing with the marches, organizinghis group of people, energizing. you know the problem is, joy, midterms you have big dropoffs of democrats. you have big dropoffs of young people. big dropoffs of minorities. this sort of thing brings into question whether or not you're going to have those dropoffs. if these marches continue to go on and get this energy or engagement, i think republicans are looking at not the 2010 electorate. or the 2014 electorate, but electorate that looks a lot more like a presidential electorate. i think democrats gerrymandered.

and have a big year. >> kirsten, you have democrats looking at these suburban districts around whether or not they're able to knock off some of these republican house members. but i think the big question for many is whether or not there will be softness in the republican report? do you see any evidence, i haven't seen it in polling. anecdotally is there evidence that there's softening? >> right. right now, everyone is watching and quote/unquote giving trump that chance, right, up to the first 100 days. there's been a lot of growing disappointment to get legislation through. republicans did want health care. they really do want tax reform. infrastructure of plan. as they start to get agitated by the fact that if he doesn't seem like he can push these things through then they become much more vulnerable to republicans than democrats. it speaks to his transparency to

drain the swamp. people loved that message. they really did. it's something that americans generally have said fight the elites and fight that. we want equality in this country. he really could do a service to himself and his campaign right up to the 2020 election just with that state about president obama and believing he wasn't born in kenya. he left it to the very last minute when it gave him the biggest political punch that could be potentially where they wind up using it. >> ezra, do you turn this against the giant huge tax cut that we know is coming and paul ryan exists because that's what people do? >> right, we don't know whether he's proposing tax reforms. whether he's proposing to consult his own taxes. we just have no idea. i think this is why you're going to see people coming out to get a better understanding of what is donald trump working for. every single president in

history has chosen to release their tax returns for a reason to act in the interest of the american people. they're going to tax march.org, go to the individual website, they'reoing t type in the zip code and find a tax march near them and find out exactly what donald trump is going to get done. >> we don't know, charlie sykes, he's going to cut his taxes, and donald junior and ivanka's? >> the failure on the tax bill makes it much, much tougher. ultimately, the 2018 election is going to be determined by what is the state of the economy? is the economy booming, growing people back to work? if they don't do anything, they have a real problem. >> cornell, you're heading on out. >> i don't think he's going to raise his tax -- american people think cutting taxes is good for the economy. democrats have to put forth the argument of why cutting taxes

isn't fair in this way and not necessarily good for them. >> that's the mitt romney debate. thank you very much, ezra levin and cornell and kirstin and charlie. coming up, the headlines we'll be talking about next week. there's nothing more than my vacation.me so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. they offer free cancellation, in case i decide to go from kid-friendly to kid-free.

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it is time to find out what will be the next big headlines. i'm joined by kirstin hagland, charlie sykes, and jason, what's going to be the next headline? >> wikileaks just released a new batch of documents claiming guus guccifer we'll all be in a shameful discussion in the death of a man last year and not focusing on wikileaks and the russians. >> it's very clear what they are doing and what they are, that hopefully the impact of the things they release becomes less over time, they're pretty

transparent. there's an election in the country that's giving him safe harbor, they're worried that he might get extradited and stand trial for rape allegations. charlie sykes, what do you think will be the big headlines? >> a post-bannon white hugheous will jared run the world? steven bannon has been the alt-right nationalist populist in the white house. donald is a man with no fixed principles who often is influenced by the person who has his ear who he's speaking to. if steve bannon is gone, that may be a change in the administration. then of course we have jared, jared kushner, who apparently is being put in charge of absolutely everything. >> yes. >> so this will also, you know, i think shine the spotlight again on this family business and the possible conflicts of interest and is jared up to this job. >> it's interesting, charlie, there's rumors you could see

reince priebus replaced about gary cohn. if that happens, if you see this preponderance of goldman sachs democrats take over the white house, what happens in the republican base? >> well, that's fascinating. we're seeing the first divisions in trump world we've seen since the election. clearly there are folks who are breaking with trump over what he did in syria. that transition, keep in mind that steve bannon has that whole troll universe out there, that whole media empire. and they're going to be extremely unhappy. so this will be the first time that you've seen some really significant fissure s very specifically in the trump base. >> we're hearing k.t. mcfarland, one of the last of the general michael flynn acolyteacolytes, , they're going to be send her off to an ambassadorship overseas. interesting moves. kirstin, what do you think?

>> very interesting. mcmaster has come in trying to assemble his team. that was one of his sticking points when he came on, he said i want to get my own people. because in a role like that, which is so supremely important as we've seen with syria, you have to have the people you want and trust by your side. that shake-up is indicative is what charlie just mentioned. >> you think that's the big headline, the shake-up? >> the shake-up, and this fallout from syria, of what is the trump doctrine, because this has applications for china, and an iran deal that president trump supposedly wants to renegotiate as well. the implications and fallout, congress is on recess so you won't hear as much about the legislative battles, you'll hear about what is the trump doctrine, if any. >> y had attacks in egypt overnight, that killed many,

many people, and these were attacks on a holy day, on coptic christian churches. do we wind up talking about foreign policy and is that convenient for donald trump because it gets russia off the headlines? >> i don't think it gets donald trump off the hook. it actually puts more focus on him. why is foreign policy being negotiated by his son-in-law? what people are in a position to do this? this is not scout camp, not a chance for oil executives and people who want to do play time with foreign policy. there are lives at risk, there is american security at stake. this puts greater focus on what's not happening in the trump administration. >> there are strong man dictatorships, the mubarak dictatorship or saddam hussein, where you have one family running the country. >> this does get donald trump a chance to look strong and

decisive, which he has not looked in the first hundred days so far. that will be a plus for him. on the other hand, he doesn't have a foreign policy. and the trump doctrine is incoherent at this point. but it will be fascinating to see what he does, because, you know, what he has said in the past, what he ran on, may be very, very different from what he's inclined to do right now. but i have no idea what the trump doctrine is or what the next step is. i don't think anybody else does either. >> kirstin, who is running this government? >> a collaboration of individuals. obviously a lot of people have said jared kushner is currently running the government. donald trump obviously is the figurehead. all the red of that is, you know, up to people that are ite house insiders. but i will say that the american people don't necessarily have the will to go to war right now. and i think that's something that we need to remember. i think that's something congress knows as well. we've been embroiled there for so long. the other thing, this is a part of the refugee conversation as well. >> absolutely, can't forget it. >> yes.

syria is where the refugees are coming from. >> creating a lot of the same backlash in europe. this conversation is not over. excellent panel, that's our show for today. thanks for joining us. be sure to join us next weekend for more "a.m. joy." keep it right here on msnbc for the rest of the day. imagine if the things you bought every day earned you miles to get to the places you really want to go. with the united mileageplus explorer card, you'll get a free checked bag, 2 united club passes... priority boarding... and 50,000 bonus miles. everything you need for an unforgettable vacation. the united mileageplus explorer card. imagine where it will take you.

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before fibromyalgia, i was a doer. i was active. then the chronic, widespread pain drained my energy. my doctor said moving more helps ease fibromyalgia pain. she also prescribed lyrica. fibromyalgia is thought to be the result of overactive nerves. lyrica is believed to calm these nerves. woman: for some, lyrica can significantly relieve fibromyalgia pain and improve function, so i feel better. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. common side effects are dizziness, sepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs and feet.

don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. with less pain, i can be more active. ask your doctor about lyrica. there a, good day, everybody. i'm alex witt at msnbc world headquarters in new york. here is what's happening. we have breaking news this hour. two bombings shatter the peace of palm sunday services at churches in egypt. the toll of dead and injured is rising. and now, a claim of responsibility. we're going to take you to the sad and unsettling situation and bring you all the details in a live report. and the shocking moment that bob exploded in one place of worship, that is ahead for you. first, new and strong reaction by the trump administration against russia amid an investigation that it was complicit in a'