welcome back to "the point." i am ari melber live from seattle. president trump launched the missile strikes in syria. some in congress this weekend are saying not only did they not know that was happening on thursday evening but they still don't know what the administration plans next. it was just yesterday that president trump sent a letter to congress explaining the move and telling congress, quote, i acted in the vital national security and foreign policy interest of the u.s. pursuant to my constitutional authority. but this morning senator bernie sanders was rejecting mr. trump's approach. >> i do not believe, to answer your question, that the president simply has the authority to launch missiles. i think he has got to come to the united states congress. i think he has got to explain to us what his long-term goals are. chuck, let me just say this. maybe the most important vote that i have ever cast in my life

as a member of congress was agnst e war in iraq. when we get sucked into a war we do not know the unintended consequences. >> house minority nancy pelosi, meanwhile, demanding that speaker paul ryan actual lawmakers back from what's currently a break to debate some kind of war authorization. i am joined by david corn. karen tumulty and jens david olen. professor, how legal is this operation at this point, and what might be required if it continues? >> i mean, i think it's legal under u.s. law because the president didn't need congressional authorization for such a limited strike. normally the war powers resolution would apply, but in this case this was such a discrete military strike. and there were exigent

circumstances. he was interested in going after a particular air base that was responsible for the chemical weapons attack and he wanted to strike the aircraft that were involved. and so, in that context, i don't think a congressional authorization was required. if trump wants to turn this into a sustained military campaign that lasts more than 60 days, then yes, i think he needs to go to congress for authorization. >> and that time line teams to be key. karen, this is obviously broader than just constitutional law. the role of congress is key as both a legal a political matter. here is senator tim kaine making the case that this has to happen now. >> president trump did not say the u.s. was under imminent threat. we had a briefing by the white house on friday. they still presented us with no plan. we don't know if it's limited or whether there is more. and they -- when we asked about the legal authorization, they said they weren't prepared to discushat but they hoped to discuss it in eoming days. again, our system is we don't

want a president, any president, just being able to start a war or launch missiles whenever they want. there has got to be congressional approval. >> and karen, senator rand paul said something similar. if you could use the way-back machine and take footage of people on tv, we could all look really bad if you go a year or two forward in something that started as small and we were all happily discussing it as targeted. it turns into as history has taught us, it turns into a larger war. >> war powers act, which is the relevant law here, is something that, you know, richard nixon vetoed. presidents since him have not accepted the constitutionality of it. but there is, i think, a political benefit here as well. if you go to congress, you force a national conversation that really does clarify what the goals are here and how far the country is willing to go to achieve those goals.

but the fact is, even as people on capitol hill are screaming for consultation, there is a little spot deep down in their hearts where they don't want it. i mean, the last time this happened was the congressional vote that authorized the invasion of iraq. and a lot of the people who were in favor of that lived to regret it. >> well, david, the congress is the most political institution, so i hate to say, pretend it's not. if you pretend tt it's not we know what happened the last time a president asked for syrian authorization. they didn't even hold the vote. >> no, because they didn't want to support obama and they also didn't want to be on the hook for what would happen. they didn't want to be on the hook for making a decision on one side or the other side. there were three, four, five-dimensional reasons why republicans and democrats did not want to vote on this. i do think that, you know, we have been debating this for decades now, that you can make a case that this was not an emergency act of war, there was

no imminent threat, and it is the type of thing that the president should have, in not formally, at least informally talked to congress about. there was no rush to did this. could have taken a day or two later. with donald trump, it seems that, since it was aim, fire, ready, something, whatever. fire, now. do it, go. and without having a larger policy, we see rex tillerson and nikki haley in the last 24 hours saying things diametrically opposed about what the policy is. talking to congress may have been a way to make sure they kind of had an idea of where they were going forward, whether it was constitutionally required or not. >> but david -- >> professor, speak to -- go ahead, karen. >> well, i was saying, though, david, isn't this by definition almost contingent on what the rians do gng forward, what the russis do going forward? >> yeah. >> i think at this point it really is hard to sort of come up with a long-term strategy

when so much of what is going to happen really hinges on kind of facts on the ground. >> but it is an act of war. we have attacked another government. i am not saying it's a bad thing, but that's -- you know, it usually takes a little deliberation or at least should have some deliberation to it. >> to david's point, let me -- i want to bring in the professor. david is making a classic procedural point which lawyers love and everyone else finds boring but, professor, speak to david's premise, which is that an enriching and multi-branched procedure might actually improve the outcome, regardless, in other words, we often think of this clash, we talk about both branches checking each other. david is making the point that this would have been somewhat clarifying and would not have cost anything on the airfields that were hit. >> i don't know whether or not trump could have pursued that particular military strike a week later, but i think david's

larger point is correct, that the more support you have in washington, d.c., and across the country for a military campaign, the better. and i think that there is -- i don't think there is a lot of political cost for trump going to congress and getting an authorization. if he sought one, i think he would get it. what was problematic for obama and the reason obama could never get an authorization is because he was squeezed between two opposite sides. on one hand there were a whole bunch of anti-war doves who did not want to authorize any military action at all because they were sick and tired of military action in the middle east. and on the other hand there were a group of hawks who wanted to give too much authorization and authority to obama. he was really reluctant to accept an authorization that had no constraints in it and no checks and balances. he was sort of caught in the middle between the two parties. trump won't have the same problem because he'll really not be concerned about having too much authority. i think he can assemble a

coalition to get half of congress to give him a kind of broad authority here. that's the kind of authority that obama really never wanted but i think trump probably wants it. >> karen, i was exploring this point earlier about how the middle east is different. both parties were saying it's a mess over there. we're going to use drones, war-making authority wherever we want. putting syria to the side, president obama taking a lot of flak over the red line, but folks will remember he was bombing five-plus middle eastern countries with drones and being very aggressive. here was lindsey graham on basically that point saying, look, cat is out of the bag. >> i think the president has authorization to use force. assad signed the chemical weapons treaty ban. there is an agreement with him not to use chemical weapons. >> you think that syria, a sovereign country that is not mentioned at all in the current war authorization, it is --

somehow you can send troops into that sovereign nation without having to have congress grant the president more authority there. i think you are in the miernori view on that, don't you think, senator? >> no. we've already got troops on the ground. i don't see anybody saying cut off funding. if you don't like the thousands of military troops helping to destroy isil. cut off funding. >> karen, the point there being a practical one. while you were sleeping, lindsey graham saying to the country, we're all over the middle east. >> that's right. that's right. and certainly, you know, this has been the nature of -- it is warfare over there. but there are some other factors in here. one is there is a much heavier russian presence in syria than there was en barack obama trying to make his decision. and we do have, as senator graham mentioned, this chemical deal that the obama administration thought they had, has now been proven he didn't

have, that he does have these weapons. again, i think there are a number of factors here that do argue for, you know, again, depending on what happens in the next week, the next two weeks, whatever -- what happens when rex tillerson goes to russia, it does argue for everybody to take a breath and really think about, you know, what exactly we are trying to achieve here. >> well, that's -- >> david, briefly. >> well, that would be great if donald trump actually thinks in the big picture, but at this rate so far it seems to have been ineffectual and not part of a bigger, coherent strategy. i am not sure he has the ability with the people around him to put that together in the next three or four days. >> david corn, karen tumulty and jens ohlin, thank you so much. coming up, the legal defeat for the trump administration breaking here friday into the weekend, a federal judge telling

the doj they could not scale back obama-era police reform in the city of baltimore. baltimore police commissioner kevin davis joins me in a special one on one and leaders from black lives matter and others for a conversation after the break. more "doing chores for dad" per roll more "earning something you love" per roll bounty is more absorbent, so the roll can last 50% longer than the leading ordinary brand. so you get more "life" per roll. bounty, the quicker picker upper

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we're committed to this consent decree. we believe it helps us build the trust in theommunity with the police department and what is inside of to than is what we need. >> trust in the community. that is the focus of baltimore mayor catherine pugh for police authorities. a contrast to the trump administration's emphasis on law and order. the debate heating up because trump's justice department went to court to try to freeze obama-era reforms to the baltimore police department. and trump just lost on friday. a federal judge ruled against trump's d.o.j. finding it could not stop an agreement that the

obama administration had reached in the wake of freddie gray's death to reform and support police in baltimore. both sides had agreed to a series of reforms. they were plagued by concerns about police brutality and discrimination. the rules enhanced community oversight. monitoring action, trailining f police discrimination. those are the agreements that the new attorney general, jeff sessions, is trying to either freeze or stop according to a new order he put out this past week. some reformers object, pointing to facts that show what they call an obvious need for reform. take the baltimore agreement. unjustified disparities in the treatment of black citizens and reports of excessive force. the new attorney general arguing there has been too much focus on

police misconduct. >> unfortunately in recent years law enforcement as a whole has too often been unfairly maligned and blamed for the crimes and unacceptable deeds of a few in their ranks. amid this intense public scrutiny and criticism, morale has gone down. >> now, sessions arguing that freezing police reform and basically stopping that training would be the solution because, with less federal oversight, officers can be allowed to just do their jobs. >> we need security in our country. we have to allow you folks to do your job. you are great people. great people. great men and women. and we have to allow you to do your jobs, and we have to give you the weapons that you need. and this is a weapon that you need. >> let's break this down. part of this debate is about police oversight policy. does independent monitoring and training make for better

policing or does it actually interfere with good policing? the other part is about power. are rights better protected at the national level which liberals argue, or should more power be concentrated locally as conservatives argue? what will local governments do if they feel they have more free rein? here is florida's answer. the florida legislature passing a new bill to expand the sound your ground bill making it easier to kill another person and be protected from ever facing a full murder trial. the bill would put the burden of proof on the government for what is typically a defense that an accused killer would present. police union leaders and prosecutors have welcomed muc of trump's talk about law and orderut that may have its limits. the head of the florida prosecutors' association saying that conservative legislators have gone too far in florida and the new bill basically favors accused killers because it

forces prosecutors to, quote, present our whole case before trial. there is something wrong with that. in baltimore the reforms continue on the format originally set by the obama administration, and the police commissioner has referred to the structure, the consent decree, as a time line they have to meet whether they like it or not. in a moment, for the special discussion, i have several police and reform leaders to discuss baltimore and these issues. but first, a one on one interview with baltimore police commissioner kevin davis. thank you for joining me today. >> thanks for having me, ari. >> let me ask you off the top, the trump administration lost their attempt to freeze the reforms. is that good or bad for baltimore police? >> ari, we have been working hand in glove with the department of justice for almost two years now. the police department, mayor, city council, our congressional delegation, state delegation and, most importantly, our residents, our citizens. we all want to move forward with

this reform. no one takes the crime fight more seriously than i do. i think we can get better at the crime fight and improve community relationships. detractors i think, think we have to choose one or the other. they are not mutually exclusive endeavors, a better trained police department with 21st century technology is a better police community. we're mo we're moving forward with reforms. >> does that mean you think it's good to the obama era trainings and reforms are happening? >> ari, we have been enacting reforms for almost two years no and baltimore is our nation's eighth largest police department are in our 233rd year of existence. a proud, traditional police department with great men and women. but for a number of years the training has been neglected in baltimore, the technology has been neglected. some staffing concerns exist.

officer wellness issues have lacked in recent years. and we believe a consent decree partnership with the department of justice makes us better faster. so, again, we have stood up a full-time team to deal with the department of justice almost two years ago and have enacted reforms already and are looking forward to enacting more reforms. the consent decree is a win for the citizens of baltimore. >> that was negotiated by the obama administration department of justice. one of the things president trump and jeff sessions have talked a lot about is the idea that cops are under fire, that they're being overly criticized, it's hard to do their job. i showed some of that. the agreement you guys have reached has videos in the police vans and some of that. do you think it's good for police because it provides more evidence of what's really going on and vindicates them? or do you give credence to the argument that basically they

should be left alone to do their jobs and extra oversight or videos gets in the way? >> wve already equipped all ou prisoner transport wagons with audiond video. that's been done in the last year. we have over 1,000 of our police officers who have body worn cameras. we've captured the last three police involved shootings on body-worn cameras and shared it with the community. that makes us more effective with the crime fight. choosing the crime fight is not something we choose at the expense of community relationships. we have to choose to do better at both and believe very strongly that a relationship with the department of justice will help us do just that. >> last question, commissioner. before i get to the panel. what do you see today as the biggest misconception about officers or the folks that you oversee? >> well, ari this is a very challenging profession. the citizens of our nation

demand that we address violence in our communities. and no other city is it more important to address violence than in baltimore. we know we have to police differently. the days of zero-tolerance policing in america are over. if we're going to police in a more constitutional way, in a way that our residents expect us to police in their neighborhoods, we have to better train police officers. and baltimore police officers don't even have computers in their cars. that's something that the 20th century brought to the profession. a better trained police department with 21st century technology, with a focus on officers wellness, is a better police department with the community, and we believe this reform effort partnership with the department of justice will help hus get there a lot faster >> appreciate you joining us here on the point, commissioner. monique dixon, marq claxton, director of the black law

enforcement alliance. da rae mack allister and stephen lummis. president of the cleveland police patrolman's association. this is what we call a power panel on this issue, ladies and gentlemen. monique, what you just heard from the commissioner and what it means having the agreement go into force. >> we are pleased that the federal judge decided to approve the consent decree. for the past two years the naacp legal defense fund has worked closely with community members in baltimore to assist with providing the justice department with additional evidence of unlawful policing practices in baltimore city. we have worked with the police department as well. many years of efforts have gone unaddressed in baltimore city. the police department has tried to reform itself and has been

unsuccessful over the years. and it is the strong view of residents of baltimore city that federal intervention is warranted and necessary in this particular case. >> right. right. this has always been the big question, which is when the feds come in, does it help. de ray, listen to a simplification of the issues that came up on bill marr. >> what jeff sessions has said, he has never been a fan of these, is that they're essentially walking away from them. and the irony here is that the departmentf juice is saying that they're not invested in police rorm. meanwhile, the police departments themselves are very much invested in it. >> sure. >> and so, in ferguson, for instance -- chicago -- >> it sounds like a big [ bleep ] to black lives matter. >> that's pretty much what it is. >> de ray. is that right? what do you make of obviously a 180 change here at d.o.j.? >> i think the administration has been clear that they have no

commitment to issues of equity, justice and definitely not race. we know the federal government has been an important party in intervening to ensure that civil rights are held at the state level, that states, left to their own devices, have never been good on these issues. think about the voting rights act. the consent decrees would not have been necessary if there had been not an established pattern of wrong doing. you think about new orleans where officers were calling hits on people. baltimore, where there was clear discriminatory practices. ferguson where police were sicking dogs on people. consent decrees bind the police officers and the courts to make sure there is systemic change. commissioner davis is right. he understands that, if there will ever be trust between communities and police there has to be deep, deep change and consent decrees are clear tools for that change. he also knows that the end of the consent decrees means we

don't have the data for doing more reform and i think that's what he is actually doing here. >> steven, you represent cleveland. go ahead. >> yes, sir. i appreciate being on this panel. and i can tell you this. these consent decrees are very, very dangerous. there is not a police officer or police agency out here that doesn't always want to move forward and do the best practices. here in the city of cleveland we have done that. what we can't tolerate as police officers is large -- large-scale changes based on false narrative out there. i have heard several times cons t tution -- constitutional policing. sinus up for that. prove to me that there isn't constitutional policing. that's a subjective conclusion that very divisive organizations are making, racially exclusive organizations are making. the fact of the matter is that the police department and the police officers in that department don't care what color the people are that call them.

and the people that call us don't care what package we come into. so those are other people's agendas. and it's just not reality out on the street. it's very, very telling to me when now all of a sudden we have all these mayors and police commissioners and police chiefs embracing these department of justice oversight. obama's department of justice oversight, which is very, very dangerous and very, very costly. the city of cleveland, it will cost us $7 million to pay the monitors to the -- if the department of justice wants to come in and demand reform, then the department of justice should pay for that and not taking the money away from the citizens, from the officers on the street. >> let me bring in mark and then i know deray wants to react. mark, go ahead. >> i find it interesting that part of what we're talking about is the resistance for the law enforcement community in general to change or to accept change or to evolve even. and i think most importantly that part of the reform

movement, the criminal justice reform movement, and on the smaller scale, the police reform movement, involves evolving and taking police department, law enforcement agencies to the next level into the 21st century as commissioner davis recognized. then you have those within law enforcement and -- let's be honest about it -- in large part my former colleagues are in large part fickle and super-sensitive to anything that's new or different than what they are accustomed to. so there will naturally be a resistance. that should not hold up the calls and the obvious need for there to be additional training and resources. more importantly than just what we call reform is the movement towards professional standards. i think it's high time -- >> right. >> -- that we establish and define clear, 21st century professional standards across the nation. >> right. >> -- without nationalalizing the police department. >> i agree with that.

>> deray you wanted to speak to stephen's point that it's too expensive and that officers are not discriminating. >> to get to a consent decree there has to have been a proving of a pattern of practice. it's like police officers, you can't pistol whip people. if the officers were not doing it, there wouldn't be a need for it. we've seen it in cleveland and cities across the country. it's sort of laughable to hear a police union official sort of say there is no proof of it. the only way we got to a consent decree is due to mountains of evidence that the doj produced. people in communities have been saying this for a long time. the proof has always been in people's lives. even the d.o.j. validated it. you can't just dismiss that. >> there wasn't mountains of evidence. they took 600 reports out of 2.2 million available to them to come to the very dangerous and politically motivated conclusions. barack obama started this -- >> the 600 reports don't matter? are they just not -- they don't

count for anything? >> they're not accurate. >> oh. >> law enforcement across this country has one million contacts with citizens every single day. every single day in the city of cleveland we have 36,000 arrests in 2015. >> you don't think there is any change necessary in cleveland? you think cleveland is a model city for policing? >> i think we proved it on an international stage with the rnc, the way we handled the rnc, several protests. >> how about the way you handle policing every day? your example of great policing can't be a convention for four days. >> we can't -- sure. but we cannot -- we do the best that we can do with the resources that we get. >> the best that you can do -- >> hang on. >> hold on. okay. stephen -- folks. stephen, go ahead. >> thank you, sir. >> we have politicians now that all of a sudden are embracing the department of justice. they're admitting that they

mismanaged the police departments across this country for decades. they've reduced budgets. 17 years in a row in the city of cleveland. they reduced spending. we don't have the cars. we don't have the computers in the cars. we want to go to training. i'll go to as much training as you can. if you put two police cars in every zone in the city of cleveland, we will have and we will get back to community engaged policing, which is what we all want. so those are -- >> sir, now i'm going to pause. i have to manage. monique, i wanted to bring you back in. speak to stephen's point that, a, this is too expensive and that, b, there is and many office say there is a duality between the evidence shows many officers do their jobs. and yet at the same time what stephen is calling political is something that independent federal judges appointed by both parties across the country have repeatedly, to deray's point, have upheld. which is there is documented

evidence of misconduct. what do you say to that and the road ahead? >> i agree there is documented evidence of unconstitutional policing. i would like us to put this in perspective a little bit. the department of justice has investigated police departments all over the country under one statute in particular. that statute has been in place for 23 years. in that time, the department of justice has investigated only about 70 of the 18,000 law enforcement agencies across the country. and has entered into agreements with half of those. so to suggest that the department of justice has been overreaching and is doing something that is dangerous to law enforcement is just untrue. in terms of the cost, in baltimore over five years the city paid roughly $13 million in settlement agreements between the city and victims of police brutality. and so, the cost of a federal

nitor to come in and oversee a consent decree that details reforms that the police department should undertake to address the long list of unconstitutional policing is not -- it's not going to compare to the amount of money that has been used to settle -- to settle lawsuits. as a citizen of baltimore, i am sure that my fellow residents would be -- are more willing to spend their taxpayer dollars to prevent a loved one from being killed at the hands of police. >> well -- >> let me tell you folks, this segment was about twice the length of a normal segment we do on the weekends. but still not enough time for obviously the important issues. thank you monique, deray, stephen and loomis for joining us. trump has spent a considerable amount of time away from washington. you have seen trips to mar-a-lago where he recently

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take a listen to this. very strong words from former u.s. attorney preet bharara. he just spoke up for the first time since being removed from . >> drag a swamp takes genuine commitment to justice and fairness, not just attention to what benefits one group over another. >> he was making his case in a dramatic speech in new york. we'll show you more of that in our political panel when we come back. [woman] so beautiful. [man] beautiful just like you. [woman] oh, why thank you. [burke] and we covered it, november sixth, two-thousand-nine. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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with his first public appearance since being removed by the trump administration in march. it was a huge, sold-out crowd. and bharara praised the impartiality of the former office but said the system needs a lot of fixing. >> there is a swamp. a lot of the system is rigged. and lots of your fellow americans have been forgotten and have been left behind. those are not alternative facts. that is not fake news. but i would respectfully submit, you don't drain a swamp with a slogan. you don't drain it by replacing one set of partisans with another. you don't replace muck with muck. >> and then some new data. look at this. since assuming the office of the presidency, donald trump has spent 28 days at one or more trump-branded properties. that is more than one-third of the days that he has been

president. meaning, he goes to his own branded properties from his business empire once every 2.8 days, since assuming office. the majority of trips to private properties at mar-a-lago where he has mixed business with pleasure we should note and hosted the chinese president earlier this week. trump's frequent visits to his own properties, preet bharara and the nuclear option plenty for the political panel to get into. joining me now, mother jones david corn, katon dawson, former chairman of the south carolina republican party and politico white house correspondent tara palmieri. david, what does it mean to you as a reporter and a journalist covering this that donald trump is so often at his own properties? >> well, first, i want to know what preet bharara is doing in 2020? very powerful sentiments. we'll see where he goes, if he'll turn to politics. to your question, ari, i think donald trump may be the first president we have ever had to sees the presidency as a stepping stone. he seems more interested in

promoting himself and his brand and his family and his son-in-law than in doing serious policy work. he spent years, years lambasting barack obama for golfing. he golfs all the time, but only at the best, at the trump places. and you have to wonder, too, what security is like at mar-a-lago where he hosts all his summit meetings and important meetings. by and large, he is getting the u.s. taxpayers to pay for him to stay at his own properties, and he is even charging the secret service to stay at these places. so he is doing quite well. way beyond your usually double-dipping. >> is that fair? >> i wouldn't say it's completely fair. donald trump has his own style. obviously he had his own style of campaigning and beat hillary clinton's organization. so it seems to me that he is more comfortable in his private settings and places than he is in washington. we never really thought donald trump would embrace washington, nor the white house. but we'll see when he goes to

camp david or visits other locations. the jury is out right now, ari. let's see what kind of progress we make with these world leaders coming to donald trump's personal residences. >> the jury is out. we can put the map on the screen. the "washington post" did the analysis. it's remarkable not that it happens but that it's happening every 2.8 days. makes you think here. that's a lot of the places he goes. it's almost like -- you get the feeling they plan around it. tara, i want to ask you, on the supreme court, we may have to retire the expression "in a normal week" for this four years. >> that's right. >> but in a normal week it would be a huge story that on pure politics, not on ethics, not on consistency, not on what's fair, but on pure politics mitch mcconnell hatched and donald trump has now benefited from a bare-knuckle strategy that blew up the rules in the senate, that

got a republican on the supreme court even though barack obama ha lawfully, constitutionally put forward a person who never got a hearing let alone a vote. what do you make of the rewards here for that strategy, tara? >> i have spoken to some republicans on the hill, and it would have been probably more of a jubilant jags situation to be thrilled that they have such a young nominee, he is 42 years old. he'll likely be on the bench for 30 years. he is considered a true conservative also. they're also accepting the fact that they broke tradition by doing this. at the same time what i have been hearing is the same sort of line if, well, if harry reid had the majority lass yet year he w have done the same thing to get merrick garland through. there is also the feeling of let's not forget about 2013 when they used the same rule for the appellate and circuit judges who

could not get passed. they actually can be more partisan now. that will be the future for the supreme court picks. instead of seeing a merrick garland for the next democratic supreme court nominee it will probably be someone more like ruth bader ginsburg. the republicans are aware of that. it's not as much of a celebration as it could be. at the end of the day the syria attacks took over all the news. it should have been a win for trump but digit't really play that way. >> you mentioned who is on his list now that he doesn't need democratic involvement whatsoever. you mentioned preet. he was a federal prosecutor who trump asked to stay on, was summoned to trump tower. oversees new york and any investigations that may touch on that. you mentioned him as a political possibility. what was interesting in this speech, which didn't give a lot of attention given everything

else going on, david, was unlike most prosecutors he showed a lot of leg and was willing to be bold as well as funny. he did an impression of sorts on his former boss donald trump on crowd size. take a look. we're going to get it up here in a second. i am told we're getting it. if not, i'll read it. do we want -- >> you should reenact it. >> we don't have it? >> this is live tv, david. >> we do have it. wait. we have it. play it. >> i don't care what the pictures show. my crowd is a lot bigger than obama's crowd. much bigger than obama's crowd. from where i stand here, it looks to be about one to 1.5 million people.

it's a really huge crowd. >> david, on the politics, does he look like someone who enjoys maybe working the crowd if. >> well, yeah. the thing about that joke is, all he had to do was say the exactords that donald trump said, and it's funny. but the most interesting thing about the whole dismissal story is that, afterwards he made a comment that suggested, well, he might have been looking at things that somehow ran into donald trump. and so there is the big shoe out there that may or may not be dropping. there is still a fair bit of intrigue behind donald trump's dismissal of preet bharara. >> certainly. david corn, katon dawson, tara palmieri. thank you for hanging with me. my bad on technical difficulties. appreciate your time on "the point." president trump may have gone out of his way to keep his tax returns private, breaking all precedence and unlikely he would want to personally release them. coming up, there is a new push,

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get started for free at ancestry.com. tax day is just over a week away now, and with questions about president trump's ties to russia, there are now new calls to get his tax returns. subpoenas might sound like a drastic step, but maine republican susan collins recently said "i don't know where we'll need to do that, but if it's necessary to get the answers i suspect that we would." democratic congressman has a new bill to subpoena the tax returns. a new push from 140 groups with a march on washington for tax day calling for the returns. joining me now is lisa gilbert, vp of legislative affairs for public citizen. involved in that effort. as well as reporter perry bacon

from 538. tell me, lisa, what are you trying to do? and why would it work? >> well, thanks so much for having me. what we're trying to do is show the american people what they deserve, which is trump's tax returns. this was spurred very organically after the women's march when kellyanne conway went on tv and said americans don't care about trump's tax returns. we think that's that not true. and this march will prove that. >> when you saw this is growing out of the women's march, one of the things that was discussed initially about the so-called resistance is, well, what are they for? you see this as a march that's basically about one thing. just hoping there's something negative in the returns? >> this is certainly about transes parentsy and tax returns and the importance of progressive taxes in this nation. trump is one of the 1% who has long benefited from our rigged system. the wealthiest and corporate special interests pay not their

fair share. and so this march is about that as well as the demand for tax returns from trump, himself. >> perry, is this a good move for democrats? >> so i talked with some democratic strategists. one of their goals is to get every republican incumbent on the record on tax returns basically saying they wato want series of votes on will trump release his tax returns? and make sure they vote no to campaign him on the issue next year. is it a smart strategy? i don't know. hillary talked a lot about the tax returns last year. i'm not sure that moved a lot of voters. it was a way to focus attention on -- a way to dray up the trump/russia connection in some way, one, two, they can highlight trump maybe pays -- going to be a tax reform debate coming up soon and democrats hope to say essentially trump would benefit from the tax bill, himself, as a way to oppose that tax bill -- the tax reform bill coming up. >> i mean, perry, as you know in

politics, it matters a lot whether you're pitching policy or character of republicans were effective at going at hillary clinton's character including with things that didn't seem obviously terrible like the wall street speeches became a bigger issue than some might have expected given how many ties there are to wall street from both candidates. is this a character attack? >> it is a character attack. i mean, i would say if you look at trump's numbers, i done think you need to have that many more character attacks. i think people are fairly dubious about his character already. i think that's the goal is to -- a character attack, one people are going do understand. i guess i would add also, you mentioned resistance being negative. i talked to ezra levin, runs the indivisible group, their argument is their resistance is going to be negative, they don't control the white house or senate. the resistance is going to be on focusing on being anti-trump, in their view, a feature, not a bug. we moved from the miuslim ban t health care to gorsuch and now i think you're seeing the next

stage of that may be the tax returns and sort of linking that issue to russia and arguing trump has something to hide. >> and lisa, any reaction yet from congressional democratic leadership? >> congressional democratic leadership is taking a stand on this issue as well and i think they see the writing on the walt that this is something that the public cares about. 75% of americans across party lines want to see trump's returns. so actually just this week democrats filed a discharge petition on the presidential tax transparency act which would require not only trump's retur but also all future presidential candidates and thais something that if they get half of the house to support it, we will see it on the floor and i would say it's going to be a tough vote if that happens for republicans to say they don't want this type of transparen transparency. i think this is more than a character attack. it's something that is legitimately important to americans. there's a reason that this has been happening for the last 40 years. you know, presidents have disclosed this, they should. >> okay.

well, lisa, we're out of time. we will see what happens on tax day. lisa gilbert, perry bacon, thank you. we will be right back. in reality they're not. if a denture were to be put under a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists on the denture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly. that's why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday. polident's unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99.99% of odor causing bacteria. for a cleaner, fresher, brighter denture every day. hi, i'm frank. i take movantik for oic, opioid-induced constipation. had a bad back injury,

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qun ," i'm ari melle er melber. #thepoint or e-mail at nbcari.com. i'll answer some e-mails next week. meanwhile, joy reid is up next. have a great night. in this country, every famous, powerful or wealthy person is a target. i'm a target. any time somebody could come out and sue us, attack us, go to the press or anything like that. >> last year when fox news host bill o'reilly broke out his tiny violin to play a sad sox for a wealthy man accused of repeatedly sexual harassing women he