[ [ screams ] ] [ shouting ] brace yourself! this is crazy! [ tires screeching ] whoo! boom baby! rated pg-13. [ screams ] and thank you for watching this hour of msnbc live. i'm ali velshi.

>> tinderbox, tensions mounting over north korea as u.s. military and intelligence officials believe another nuclear test is imminent. they are accusing president trump of "making trouble with his aggressive words." china with a blunt warning of storm clouds gathering and threating running out of control. >> this has potential to have the north koreans overreact and a potential for miscommunication. in a tinderbox situation like the korean peninsula it is dangerous. kim jong-un wants to solidify his power internally and demonstrate is externally. if you push him too far, he may overreact. top gun, why did the u.s. drop the most powerful nonnuclear bomb ever used on the battlefield, striking an isis target in afghanistan.

warning shots, what is the commander and chief signaling to the world? >> i don't know if this sends a message, north korea is a problem, they be taken care of. i will say this, i think china has really been working very hard. >> former defense secretary leon panetta joining me just ahead. good day, everyone, i'm andrea mitchell back in washington. the world is on edge waiting to see what north korea will do less than 24 hours away from a key anniversary. a day traditionally marked by provocative military acts. the president's twitter only stoking the fire tweeting that north korea is looking for trouble. if china will help, that is

great, if not we will solve the problem without them. now north korea is calling his tweets and exercises vicious and aggressive saying they're willing to go to war if the u.s. provokes north korea. kristen welker is joining us now, first of all north korea, the white house is on guard. obviously the entire u.s. government, the pentagon, traditionally these anniversary are marked by a missile or nuclear test. they have done five nuclear tests before now, and it could well happen in the next 24 hours. >> it could happen, you're right. we know that president trump is in march l-a-lago for the easte weekend. they are here monitoring the situation and paying very close attention. you saw the president talking about china, the fact that he has been pleased with the

direction that is going in. the united states feels for the first time that china is really starting to ramp up some pressure on north korea to abandon the nuclear tests and the provocations. even threatening to who would oil supplies from the region. they feel it is moving in the right direction. i just spoke to vice president mike pence's press secretary. he said look, we continue to have the conversations, the vice president about to leave tomorrow for a ten-day trip to the region, to asia, including a stop in south korea. he will be having these types of conversations about the necessity to really turn up the heat on north korea, and understand the fact that united states stands to be with their allies here. what is the united states prepared to do about it. we reiterated something that we heard from this president is that all options are on the table. when i -- this is an

administration keeping it's options open. >> yesterday you were in the white house asking the president a question about that bomb, the largest nonnuclear weapon ever used. caves, tunnels in afghanistan. let me play that for you and get reactions on the other side. >> i'm very proud of the people, really another successful job. we're very, very proud of our military. just like we're proud of the folks in this room, we're so proud of our military. and it was another successful event. >> do we do anything more about the targeting? the use -- the decision to use that weapon? >> in terms of the targets andrea, the pentagon believes they were essentially wiping out an area where you had a number of isis fighters, 30 to 40 in

those tunnels there that you see. in terms of how this evolved operationally it's our understanding, and baited on our reporting as well, that the president didn't necessarily have to give the green light for this operation. the reason for that is because essentially under president obama he authorized the use of military strikes in afghanistan. this was a follow through with that broader strategy. however, one thing that is different with this administration, andreandrea, an you talk to officials in the military they will underscore this. it is that the president has given the military more latitude to make decisions without his signoff. so we are seeing a tactical shift. but again really flexioning it' muscle. >> kristin welker, thank you so very much from the white house. joining me now is leon panetta. the former director o of the

cia, and chief of staff for president bill clinton. now the chairman of the panetta institute for public policy in monterey. thank you so much. leon. let's talk about north korea first of all. what do you expect we all are sort of on high alert because of the way that north korea marks anniversaries that are important in their culture like the founder's birthday. >> no question this is a tinderbox. has been for a long time, but we're at a time when there is a potential for provocation. with the testing of this nuclear weapon. and, you know, the words from the administration are creating even higher volume in terms of the provocations that are going on. i think we have to be careful here. this is, you know, we should not engage in any precipitous action. there is a reason no other

president has pulled the trigger on north korea. you have 20 million people in seoul, that would be a target. we have a potential for a nuclear war that would take millions of lives. i think we have a exercise some care here. we just gave china the opportunity to engage, let's see how they do. they also, of course, no government in south korea, an acting government, an impeachment, an election coming up in may, given the politics there, they are likely to be moving to the left. if there was military action now, pre-emptive say from the u.s. side, that would have a big impact on south korea's willingness to handle the u.s. military presence in the future. >> well, it would be a dangerous step to take the action here, p pre-emptive reaction here. there would be a counter reaction from north korea. most likely aimed at seoul.

south korea has a huge stake here in terms of what may or may not happen. it is for that reason that i think, you know rather than increasing the pressure here, increasing the soundbites, i think this is a moment to kind of restrain ourselves, take a look at the situation and what china can do, and he just met with president xi, he seems pleased with what president xi committed to, let's give china the chance to act here. we have a lot of force in the area, we have a lot of plans for potential attacks there, we have had them for a long time. we always hesitated for good reason because of the consequences that could result. >> let's talk about what we do have. the antimissile defense system that is not yet operational. we do have destroyers, we have two destroyers with tomahawk

missile lgs off s off of the co japan. we have a lot of troops below the dmz in japan -- we have options, don't we, in terms of missile defense. they can be capable of being put on a missile, nor the missile that could be operational in a area or more. >> we know what they're working on. we know what their capabilities are. they are working on an icbm. we're not there yet in terms of an effective icbm. they're not there yet in terms of administerzation. but at the same time they have developed a mobile missile

system, they fired missiles from sub submarines and they have a dozen nuclear weapons. the reality is that our best approach is to increase the defenses, as we have with those missiles in south korea. increase our military presence there as we have with the uss vincent, and other navy ships in that area, at the same time, i think it is important tole increase our sanctions. we threaten to increase sanctions, the sanctions there are frankly not working as well as they should. they need more bite. and we could increase the sanctions on them and at the same time increase our pressure on china to try to get china to come to the negotiating table.

is a policy of containment and deterrence. that is the reality. hopefully they will come to the negotiating table, or self destruct because of the quality of the regime we have in north korea. >> do we have an option of regime change? >> it has always been the hope that regime change would happen on it's own. and that the north korean people who are starved, and whose economy is one of the worst in the world, we respond and they haven't. this has been going on for 60 years. but at the same time, every leader tends to become much more dominating in terms of the way they pressure the north korean

people, the way they go after those that they suspect of trying to be disloyal to the leader. and so, i think there comes a point at which these leaders, by conducting themselves this way, they tend to overreact and take action, which ultimately could und undermine their own regime. i think the self destructing, as did the soviet union, i think it is a real possibility. >> this is the most isolated country in the world. i have been there, there is no internet, no communication, no radio, none of the interactions that lead to what happened in the soviet union. let me ask you about afghanistan and the decision to use that moab, that large weapon, never before used, did you have the option of using that?

or was that weapon not operational at that point? >> well, when i was secretary of defense, we were working on developing that weapon. very frankly, it was initially targeted at the potential of going after underground enrichment iran. that was our concern. it is a very effective weapon. i have seen it tested. it can penetrate deeply into the ground and cause a huge explosion like we have seen. it is a weapon that can be used effectively, as it was in afghanistan to go after isis fighters located in deep caves. i think that is a good use of the weapon. and on syria, the future of assad inform his interview, he rejected the accusations of chemical weapons. questioning whether or not the pictures are real, the dead

children were really dead at all. how would you deal with the threat of assad, especially given the fact that russia has it's back? >> well, you know, i think the united states has good leverage here. not only in dealing with syria and russia, but also in working with the community to continue to put pressure on syria. we have shown that we're willing to take military action. we have a high moral ground here because of the use of the chemical weapons. we have been able to establish clear evidence that syria was involved in a syran attack on it's people. and obviously it was, as pointed out by secretary tillerson, either incompetent or participating in using these

chemocam weapons. so we have a good case. i think we need to continue to pressure them, to continue to go after isis, but we also need to continue to support those forces working against assad. there is no way we can maintain the regime against syria. >> was the obama white house wrong to not enforce their own red line after sending secretary of state out 24 hours earlier to give what was basically a declaration that we would take the military option? >> i always said that when a president puts his credibility on the line with a red line, as president obama did saying we would not allow them to kus chemical weapons, i think it was the right step to take, but it

was also important to stand by that red line and enforce it. i think when there was hesitancy to do go to congress for permission, and not take action, i think it sent a message to assad and russia as well. i think it is important to set red lines. when you say we will do something, you have to stand by your word. otherwise is sends a message of weakness to the world. >> you have senior colleagues, how fractioned is the problem now? you have steve bannon, a son-in-law, a national security advisor with clout, do too many people have the president's ear on these things? >> i'm having a hard time understanding how the white

house works with that many power centers. i thought it was important to have one chief of staff, not to have a lot of people wandering around with no kind of portfolio in terms of responsibility, but to go in meetings and say what they think and have no responsibility. i think there is too many power centers. who is really in charge? and i think it would be important to accomplish a strong chief of staff, with the authority and the discipline to run a tight staff, every president needs to have that. >> leon panetta, thank you for your insights today. power play, more on who is in charge after a week of reversals from president trump's campaign promises. that is next on andrea mitchell reports on msnbc.

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[ [ screams ] ] [ shouting ] brace yourself! this is crazy! [ tires screeching ] whoo! boom baby! rated pg-13. [ screams ]

president trump ask dismissing reports of infighting among top aides. in recent days, the president has expressed little support for steve bannon calling his top strategist "a guy that works for me." there is a suggestion that bannon may have brought it on himself. here is what he told chuck todd. first of all, i think steve made an err not spending any political capital to bring other

trumpites and nololist coming into t service. >> he didn't bring people into the white house. >> he is alone and surrounded. >> surrounded, joining me now is bill crystal, editor at large for "the weekly standard." so much intrigue coming from this white house, maybe because there are so many power centers. >> when roger stone turns on you, he was an ally, that's not a good sign. if you're steve bannon watching that, you're thinking oh no. it is pretty unprecedented for a chief of staff. leon panetta replaced him and got things in order, and they

said maybe he should have worked in the white house or the government. priebus had not. how can you say that, but he does not have the authority have a leon panetta had or -- >> you're not saying it's his own making, it's just the system. >> yeah, we haveman nonwith his own agen and you have the trump family, they have their own agenda which is more convention conventional. and i do think one thing is obvious is the trump family. trump runs the trump organization. the people that helped him run that before running for president, his daughter and sons. they have the top tight ps --

>> let's look at some of the policy reversals. we're talking about changing mixed messages on foreign policy. now it is not so much, but the bank, he talked about that it will help small businesses, as well. janet yellin, the fed chair, bad during the campaign, not so bad now. liking the monetary policy they see so far. you can see this is what happ s happens. >> and people around you who have their own views, and the institutions have views and everything else starts to make you less of a rebel.

and i mean, he said in a conversation with president xi, he knew how complexion the relationship was. on the other hand, it is terrible that he did not know already. he has started to learn things where he has been discussing for a few years. i do think it was a big story in the last couple weeks. not just the flip-flops, buthe victory of the institutions and the administration over trump and especially over bannon and sort of the particular views, trump rebellion in washington. he seem tols be adjusting to more conventional views on foreign policy and domestic policy issues. and some of the views are sounder. how deep his commit tomt that

is, how well he can run his administration where you're just sort of flipping over and not really -- not clear there is a real strategy behind the whole thing, that is the big question. but i think the big question is h.r. mcmaster. flynn leaving was the story 27 days in, and it is still a story because of residual issues, but mcmaster was not that well known. came in, people were generally pleased. i think he has been the story of the last 50 days since he came in. gradually getting the national security council in order, getting bannon off of the security council. bringing in professionals to run the nfc. getting a real decision making process going. someone with general mattis recently someone asked him what do you think of the national security council, and i think he said something like "i think it is working well now.

now is the word." so i think mcmaster, if to the degree that we have a normal foreign policy that respects allies, a more conventional center to center right, mattis is important, tillerson, but i think mcmaster is the key and his success has been the story for in the last couple weeks. >> thank you so much. coming up, threat assessments, the u.s. weighing options as north korea preparestha could be a nuclear test. wendy sherman with a special coming up here on "andrea mitchell reports."

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zlrchlgt north korea is celebrating a major holiday. today his grandson marking the occasion at a national attemptly. he also attended a flower show marking the day. north korea is known for marking these with missile or nuclear tests.

ambassador wednesdandy sherman g us. she has negotiated face to face with the former north korea leader, she is now at the albright stonebridge group. i was on that trip with you when there was a hope that something positive might come out of it. >> indeed. that trip was about really getting north korea to stop testing missiles because if they stop testing missiles, they could not get a delivery mechanism for a nuclear weapon. there was great concern they may get an intercontinental missile that could be capable of carrying a warhead. we had an election that never got over that year between bush, and what became president bush and al gore, and the president clinton was working on the middle east at the same time. and we never got to make a second trip to pyongyang to see

if we could get that inagreement. >> and they were cheating? >> yes, they discovered towards the end of the clinton administration program, they started a uranium enrichment program. they were starting to make progress, but we will never know the answer. >> you met kim jung u.n's fathe. the father was someone we thought we could cut a deal with. >> i think the son is worse than the father and the far was worst than the grandfather that is being celebrated. because the grandfather, jimmy carter went there ready to make a deal, and president clinton would have been open to a summit and that went by the waysi. he is brutal, his fatheras brutal, and his grandfather was

brutal. he killed his uncle soon after taking reign. >> let me ask about the kem kal weapons. it was an agreement with the russians that john kerry said no matter what he might have wanted privately we didn't take military action. they guaranteed a deal. that was the declared weapon and that has been glossed over a loss. so anything that assad kept back could have still exited. >> ya, unfortunately north korea has chemical weapons. these are the declared weapons and they did come out in a verified manner. he must have held on to some precursor -- things you need to make the chemical weapons

somewhere. and we're fating that today. it is a horrific situation. it is simply outrageous, but he didn't say he did 2013 chemical attacks. assad, who really killed his own people for being in charge. >> secretary kerry understand the painful experience of getting that political exit strategy going. the russians now hold the key, and you see how heavy happened foreign minister lavrov was. >> secretary tiller son got the full lavrov. i have been there before.

secretaryillerson tried to be measuredn how he managed this incredibly difficult situation. but they do have a lot of leverage in the current situation. i sat down with the russians to try to work with them, to try and get peace in syria, and follow on the geneva agreement, but we have not got therein yet. >> so a lot of issues with the russians, and lavrov. coming up, at the world turns, the pet's sporesident's spokes says everyone is changing to match the president. when i neeo book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. they offer free cancellation, in case i decide to go from kid-friendly to kid-free. now i can start relaxing even before the vacation begins.

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they are grand masters of manipulating currency. >> i have gotten to know and respect president xi. >> president trump striking a different tone on china this week. that shift leading to a call for china's help dealing with north korea. they had that headline making interview, first on the china situation? >> there was several of them. one was how the president felt

towards president xi. and he said they had good chemistry. he really liked him, his wife, and china was a villan for the president during the campaign. that was unexpected. another on china was the car insurance any manipulation. twofold, one is that he was doing that because china was no longer a currency manipular. but he added that even if china was manipulating currency, now is not a time for the u.s. to be able because he needs things from china on north korea. as he is showing flexibility there on his policies just based on what he may need. the other things he may fleed a foreign leader and a willingness to charge because he said the situation changed and china is no long aerocurrency manipulator. also he said that he changed his

views on how much he thought that china could influence north krae ya. he said he started with president xi saying you should easily be an to take care of this problem. and president trump said in ten minutes he realized it's not so easy for china to fix this problem and to influence north korea. that they had some power, but not as much as they thought. so it was a shift on many fronts. >> and sean spicer was asked about this. he said you should ask the president, that is complicated. i think also, if we have that sound of sean spicer yesterday. >> what should the american people make of these shifts, and are there any policy areasnon-n.

some of those are policies that are evolving toward the president's position. >> it looks like stability. >> yeah, except that is not necessarily, it doesn't play out entirely because if you look at currency manipulation, for instance, china had stopped devaluing their currency for some time. the president started doing that when he go elected but it started before that. on nato the president said they shifted their focus toward terrorism. and that wasn't in response to the president, and two he said that you know they're finally paying their fair share, but that is also not their process. they were put in the process before president trump was elected to have allies pay their 2% of their gdp towards defense.

so i think there a little, he seems to -- his mind has been changed, and other instances, the argument is that he is not changing so much as people are changing their point of view. >> a number of things, what an interview, congratulations on that. commander and chief has president trump following through on his tough talk with isis. the former defense secretary will join me next. it is time for the "your business entrepreneurs over the week." seeing double? these two entrepreneurs launched cuddle clones because they knew people like them would like to have a huggable replica of their furry best friend. they have now shipped out more than 20,000 stuffed animals. brought to you by american

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liberty mutual insurance i would bomb the [ bleep ] out of them. i would just bomb those suckers. >> i'm going to bomb the [ bleep ] out of them. it's true. i don't care. i don't care. they have to be stopped. >> we have to knock the [ bleep ] out of these people. we have to do it. >> we're going to knock the [ bleep ] out of isis. we're going to knock the [ bleep ] out of them. >> that was candidate donald trump showing to bomb isis. president trump following through on that campaign promise dropping the most powerful

nonnuclear bomb on afghanistan against isis and underground tunnels. joining me now is william mccomb. a former senator and advisor to president the right decision, the right use of that weapon? >> i think it was. i think he's taking advice from his commander in the field and also secretary mattis. so i think they had a specific target. this was the right weapon for that target. and it's an indication that we have more powerful weapons. we have one even more powerful than that. but nonetheless, i think he's deferring to the tactical decisions to be made by the commanders in the field, and it's good thing. >> let's talk about north korea. we were talking to one of your other predecessors, and this is what he had to say about the use of force against north korea preemptively. >> there's a reason n u.s.

president in he cerecent histor pulled the trigger on north korea. you've got 20 million people in seoul that would be a target. we have the potential for a nuclear war that would take millions of lives. so i think we've got to exercise some care here. >> what are the options? >> the options are very few. the options are simply to contain north korea as best we can. but to bring economic pressure upon the regime. that regime cannot last without china's support. and that is why president trump's meeting with president xi was very important. and i think the chinese understand that to allow north korea to continue doing what it's doing is going to destabilize the region, and maybe the world. so i think the chinese will do more than they have in the past. and i think president trump will continue to show that we have military power. but i doubt very much at this

point whether we're considering any kind of preemptive action. and if we were, the last thing we should say is we're considering preemptive action, which would be likely to trigger kim jong-un to take action ahead of time. so i think we have to walk very carefully and talk very carefully when we're dealing with someone who is many thousands of weapons and nuclear weapons, as well. >> we've got two destroyers in the area off the sea of japan or rather off the coast of japan. they've got tomahawk cruise missiles. we've got egis missile defense, sea based in the area, as well. so we have some options if we did think that they had a missile that was nuclear armed. >> they're there more for a reactive presence. we're not there to launch military action preemptively. you would have to wipe out all of the north korean's capability before they were unable to

unload their conventional weapons on seoul, including 28,500 u.s. soldiers in south korea. so we're there to be reactive in the event they do something that really is dangerous to our allies in the region. we will be there to react very vigorously. and we sent a signal that if they ever take any action that threatens our allies or the united states, it will no longer exist. we have that capacity. but that's not something that we're looking for a fight. we're trying to persuade the north koreans, but especially the chinese to exercise more economic power and influence over kim jong-un saying look, we can't support new any longer if you're going to continue down this path. so either you alter the course of the regime's actions or we have to look at potentially having regime change, and that can come from within or without. but you can't continue on this path and maintain stability in

the region. >> there are laws against regime change, against knocking off, assassinating a head of state. it's been in place since jerage ford, i believe. what option would we have externally? >> regime change from within. it may be that the generals see that the hand writing on the wall, and that they will not have a future. if china refuses to back them the way they have, they will not be able to survive economically and politically. it may be the revolt comes from within, saying kim jong-un, you have to go, unless you're willing to change the course of your conduct. so there's an option from within. externally, it's very difficult and i don't propose we're looking at any action that's imminent unless he does something that does pose a threat to our troops, and to the region itself. >> bill cohen, former defense secretary, thank you so much. coming up, the amazing story of the last two surviving

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and before we go for this easter holiday weekend, some good news. the last two surviving animals at a zoo in the city of mosul have been rescued. they arrived at a rehabilitation center in jordan monday night after for paws animal rescues

saved the animals at their home at the zoo which had been under isis control for years. this was the second attempt by the group to rescue the animals. and workers were stopped and turned around at a check point in march. the veterinarian who led the march said the animal also be able to live out their days without the constant danger of a nearby war zone and noise of wall blasts in the background. best of luck to a pair of very lucky animals. perhaps it's a symbol, a metaphor of good things to know. who knows? that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." my friend craig melvin is up next right here on msnbc. >> happy easter to you, my friend. good friday afternoon to you. craig melvin here at msnbc headquarters in new york. some of the headlines we're following at this hour -- growing unease. senior intelligence sources

telling nbc news the united states is prepared to launch strikes if pyongyang carries out more nuclear tests. this as the rogue nation prepares anniversary celebrations that could involve a nuclear test. trump's travel tab. the president at mar-a-lago once again, celebrating the easter holiday. just how much do his trips cost taxpayers? and if danger. the president's border wall threatening to stop more than illegal immigration. why some say it could kill off thousands of endangered animals, as well. we'll get to that in just a moment. but we start with north korea, the biggest of several international crises, testing the new trump administration. officials there have blasted president trump's aggressive tweets this morning, aggressive tweets their words. the country celebrating its founder's birth this weekend. and analysts are worried that a show of strength possibly the