those are going to happen tomorrow again, d.c. and around the country that does it for us tonight. we will see you next week. a trim for kim? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. president trump faces rising tension on the korean peninsula right now. the question is what's his strategy to deal with kim jong-un? the world's attention is on north korea, which is celebrating the 105th birthday of its founder. it's morning over there right now, and some observers expect that the country which promised a big event will use the anniversary to test another nuclear weapon, like right in the next few minutes. anyway, the pentagon ratcheted up pressure by sending an aircraft carrier strike group to

the area. in fact, china foreign minister warned storm clouds gathering over the peninsula there. well, for the past few weeks, president trump has toughened his rhetoric toward north korea. he said, quote, north korea is behaving very badly. it is looking for trouble. he referred to the menace of north korea, and he tweeted, i have great confidence that china will properly deal with north korea. if they are unable to do so, the u.s. with its allies will. usa. well, here's what he told reporters just yesterday. >> north korea is a problem. the problem will be taken care of. i will say this. i think china has really been working very hard. >> well, north korea's vice foreign minister responded to the president's rhetoric. he told the associated press today, trump is always making provocations with his aggressive words. well, meanwhile, japan's prime minister shinzo abe warned there is a possibility north korea is already capable of shooting

missiles with sarin gas as warheads. there is no more serious threat in the world by the way facing trump today. what does his reaction say about what kind of commander in chief he is? christopher hill is a former u.s. ambassador to south korea and former assistant secretary of state for east asia. he's in seoul, south korea right now. john pomfret is the former beijing bureau chief for "the washington post." max baucus is a former u.s. senator and former ambassador to china. and kelly magsamen is a former senior pentagon official in charge of asia in the obama administration. let me start with ambassador hill over there. what are the options? let's start with the options of our president, president trump. what can he do to shake kim jong-un off the course of going to an active nuclear power for lack of a better phrase? >> well, as everyone says, the options are pretty bad. the issue is not to choose even worse options.

so i think what we need to do is to continue to work with the chinese. that sounds like, you know, an example of hope over experience. but clearly china has more leverage than anyone else. they're doing some things, as the president suggested. the question is whether the things they're doing in terms of the sanctions, whether that train is going to move along as fast as the north korean development of nuclear weapons. so in china's case, it may be with respect to sanctions a little too little, too late. >> senator bacchus, do the chinese have the same intense interest in preventing north korea from getting -- using a nuclear weapon? >> i think that china at all costs wants stability in china domestically as well as on the peninsula. i think there's still time for a diplomatic solution here. china does not like instability on the peninsula. they don't like kim jong-un. i've been in many meetings where

president xi speaks very disrespectfully. i've spoken to the chinese ambassador to the six-party talks many times. they don't like him. they're trying to find a solution. my view, though, is that trump has kind of done the right thing here by stepping up the pressure. the carrier group and the signaling china with the strike on syria. but we have to take advantage of that pressure now and work with china to find a joint solution with north korea. china wants this solved too. there's no question about that. what we have not been sufficiently creative. i think the past practice of strategic patience was wrong. it was naive frankly. u.s. policy has been feckless. we haven't been focused on the real problem here. but now the strategic patience is gone. we're working on a new reality here, which is a new reality about kim jong-un. we have to take advantage of the tension now and the additional pressure, working with china to find a solution. there's no solution to this problem without working with china.

>> do all of these people clapping -- we're looking at stock footage here of all these people clapping like robots. is that the way they are, senator? are they robotic mentality people because they don't seem -- they all have a certain facial expression. they all have to act -- i mean it's frighteningly controlling. is this who they are or are they all fake something? how would you describe the culture of that country? >> i think they're scared to death of the paramount leader. he's killed many people. he's assassinated many people. they know which side their bread is butters. they're scared. they're going to follow the line. >> in an interview last night with former secretary of defense leon panetta, here's what he told us about our options with dealing with north korea. let's watch. >> there are no good options here. you know, presidents in the past would have pulled the trigger a long time ago if there were easy options. the fact is we're dealing with a nuclear-powered nation.

if we were to try to attack them, they would virtually wipe out seoul and 20 million people who live in seoul. and if it became a nuclear war, which is likely, millions of lives would be lost, and that's the reason we haven't pulled the trigger. >> you know, he's a great man, leon panetta. i've known him forever. he used the word pull the trigger, an unfortunate metaphor. the question a lot of us worry about and we talked about earlier, what happens if this guy over here gets nervous and he hears talks coming out of this country about preemptive strikes and says, well, there's my excuse. i'm going to release my artillery on seoul. this is my pretext for doing so. to me, that's scary. >> yes. so i think a lot of people right now are focused on whether or not north korea is going to do a nuclear test. >> tonight. >> tonight or potentially an icbm test. >> an underground test, the sixth they've had. >> this would be the sixth test they've done.

the last was in 2016. i think that is less of a concern than their testing an icbm successfully, a kn 08, for example, something that could reach the united states homeland. that is concerning to me, but also besides just, you know, demonstrations of their nuclear capability, the north koreans could also do a provocation, an actual provocation as you suggest, as somebody sending artillery over the edge or sending a naval force out to confront our navy forces. i mean there are other means, conventional ways that kim jong-un could test the u.s. alliance relationship with korea. >> john, how do you deal with the fact that you basically -- i'm going to use this phrase at the end of the show, grab the cheese without snapping the trap. i mean we want something done. we want this guy to get off his course. but it's very tricky. we've got to kim jong-un to do something he wants to do. we got to -- he wants to be the big shot and have nuclear weapons that look like they're ready to go. how do we get him back from that

sort of defcon one of his or whatever he'd like to be on? >> i think right now the only option we have is china. and clearly trump is putting all his eggs in that basket again. but he's also trying to be transactional about it. for example, he offered china a better deal on trade if the chinese would play ball on north korea. but it's very clear that he's put significant pressure on china and also that he used the strike on syria as a way to show the chinese that he means business. so from that perspective, i agree with ambassador baucus, that he's playing this relatively correctly right now. the question is whether the chinese take him seriously enough to actually put the added pressure that is needed to be put on the north koreans to get them to begin to change their behavior. that's a big question. >> let me go over to ambassador hill again. go ahead. >> sometimes it's important to think out of the box. china very much wants kim to realize that there will be no regime change.

if kim is guaranteed no regime change and if somehow we could figure out a way for us to guarantee no greater nuclear capability, nukes are frozen, or some way we're more assured that the peninsula is going to be more stable, that might be the beginning of a result here. if somehow we can guarantee that to kim, i know that's unconventional, but somehow if we could, at the same time make sure our interests are protected, that could be an approach. >> let me go to ambassador hill because a couple questions keep coming to mind. i've been thinking a lot and researching the cuban missile crisis, and the danger there was khrushchev decided to put in offensive weapons capable of reaching pretty much every capital in north america on cuba, not defensively. he saw it as a chance to grab the strategic advantage and equalize the two strategic arsenals by getting this close to us. he got it all wrong. castro told somebody i know once, big mistake. why did he do it? so mistakes are made even by

reasonable people like khrushchev. how do you find reason from kim jong-un? how do you get him to make a rational decision about the future of his country and his own life? >> well, first of all, as everyone said, the big problem is kim jong-un -- the big problem is kim jong-un, unlike his father, seems to have zero interest in negotiations. his father had some interest in it, and his interest was because he cared about the relationship with china. kim jong-un has essentially no relationship with china. they've never even invited him during his five years of rule. so there's a real problem getting to kim jong-un. i'd also like to point out that some of these -- the ideas of preemptive strikes, i think we need to remember that our relationship here on the korean peninsula is not with north korea. it's with south korea. it's with our ally. so for us to get into a kinetic strike against north korea

without full understanding, full consultations with the south koreans could create a lot of problems especially if north korea were to fire back in retaliation. so i think we need to be very close to the south koreans. right now we have no ambassador here. we have no ambassador in the pipeline. i think there's a real problem in terms of our ability to communicate out here. finally i'd like to say that i understand why some people say we ought to freeze in return for something that we would give the north koreans. i'd be careful of that stuff. we did a lot of that. in fact, we set out a whole agreement in september '05, a whole issue of giving them assistance, of assuring mutual recognition, and they walked away from it. it's clear they want nuclear weapons, and i think we need to be very tough on this issue. >> thank you ambassador christopher hill, senator mack baucus. up next, john lithgow playing a

trumpian character on his new film. oh yeah? ended up saving a ton of money on car insurance. i hear they have a really great mobile app. the interface is remarkably intuitive. that's so important. ♪

welcome back to "hardball," from terms of endearment to broadw broadway, actor john lithgow plays alongside selma hayek at beatrice at dinner out june 9th, the first of its kind in the trump era. the story pits beatriz, a physical therapist who immigrated from mexico against a brash real estate developer whose top concern is his bottom line.

let's take a look. >> this is my dear friend beatriz. >> hi. nice to meet you. >> beatriz is a healer. >> i do massage, sound therapy. >> this woman is a saint. it's like birds fly out of the sky and land on her shoulder. >> it's like snow white. >> can i get another bourbon, hon? >> oh, no, dad. this is beatriz. she's staying for dinner. >> oh, you were hovering. i just figured you were part of the staff. >> do i know you? >> doug's famous. he's been on the news. >> i don't know why. i think i know you. >> ever dance in vegas? >> i would just like to say thank you for having me. when i first came to the united states a long time ago -- >> did you come legally? >> yes. >> this tenderloin was amazing. >> it's true what they say. those animals would basically be gone if it wasn't for the hunting. >> i don't consider it murder. it's like this original dance of man and beast, the struggle for survival. >> are you for real? you think it's funny? i think it's sick. >> the world does need your feelings. it needs jobs.

it needs money. it needs what i do. >> the world doesn't need you. >> doug is a great philanthropist. >> shut up. >> okay. you're done. >> i'm joined by legendary john lithgow, who also stars in the hit nbc comedy "trial and error" as well as "the crown," which everybody loves on netflix in which he plays sir winston churchill. it's an honor to have you on. i saw the movie this afternoon, and i have many thoughts about it. one thought was you're a very likable bad guy. that's my thought. >> mm-hmm. >> was that your purpose? >> when i play a bad guy, i never consider him the bad guy. i always consider him the good guy. everybody else thinks of him as the bad guy, and that's particularly interesting in this film. yes, he's almost irresistible. a man who is completely self-satisfied, confident, has absolutely no doubts and no conscience.

it was fascinating to play it. it makes you kind of sick to your stomach watching him, but he's not sick to his stomach. he's perfectly happy. >> the sort of trumpian themes here, a guy who is sort of a real estate developer, what we used to call in the '60s a pig, up against this absolute, true-believing, somewhat humorless good person. you capture the humanness of the bad guy. she doesn't capture exactly the humanness of the good guy. it's interesting. it's an interesting counterplay. >> it's very interesting. mike white is a very ingenious writer. he wrote the screenplay. miguel arteta directed it. the two of them work together quite often. mike is best known as a comic writer. it's a very witty screenplay, but he's also a very smart writer who is after bigger game here. >> yeah. >> when he set out to conceive

this film, he wanted to write about class divides, the economic inequality, the degradation of the environment, the future of the human race. big, big ideas, but he reduced it to this group of seven people at a dinner party. and it begins very funny. you almost think you're seeing a comedy, and it just gets darker and more -- >> it sure does. >> it is an unsettling film mainly because what's happening all around us right now. >> exactly. i thought you throw that phrase big game in there usefully because one of the obnoxious scenes in there is your character posing with a dead rhino, and as many times as i've been to africa on safari and have loved it every time, i despise big game hunters and i know all the arguments about the economics, and they bring it out in the movie. i don't like the fact that trump's kids, i don't like them posing with big game they've killed either.

here's your widely praised scene that depicts sir winston churchill in "the crown." >> is your health better now? >> it is. >> good. >> but is it sufficiently better? fit for office better? i would ask you to consider your response in light of the respect that my rank and my office deserve, not that which my age and gender might suggest. >> i look at you now, and i realize that the time is fast approaching for me to step down, not because i am unwell or unfit for office, but because of you are ready.

therefore, i have discharged my duty to your father. >> wow. well, i'm trying not to cry. that is one of the great scenes ever, and you passed muster with the pommies, i guess, huh? they liked you. >> they've nominated me for a bafta award. >> unbelievable. >> thank you so much, chris. and i'm acting there with claire foy, who is just a radiant, absolutely superb actress. she really makes the entire series sing. i'm very, very proud to be a part of it. >> you know, i think very little has been said about the second premiership of churchill, the part that wasn't so glorious, that was difficult for him. he was getting old. he had stayed on too long, you know. he left a -- he should have stepped down, and you played staying on till the end the wonderful thing that he did to raise the queen. great stuff. >> it's an unexplored moment of history really, the early 1950s, in britain in particular, a

nation that supposedly had won a war and yet they felt like a defeated country. and churchill was the old victorian, the child of empire, and the empire was slipping away. that's his particular drama. you know, the series has like six concurrent stories. his story is the man who is growing old and is hanging on too long. >> well, i have to congratulate you on everything you've done. i have to tell you we all loved "terms of endearment" when we first met you in that safeway checkout counter when you were desperate for sex. i thought that was one of the great scenes ever about a guy. and i also loved your audio recording of "bonfire of the vanities." you did all the -- >> oh, my goodness. >> no, you did all the ethnic accents in new york, every accent. you did, you know, ed koch. you did everyone. those great lines from the guys in the street. >> that's wonderful. i never get a compliment for that, chris. >> you deserve more than that. >> i was very proud of that. thank you. >> thank you, john lithgow.

great movie coming out. thanks for coming on "hardball." >> it's a real pleasure, chris. when we return, let me finish tonight with trump watch. we've had a hint of it there in the movies. you're watching "hardball," where the action is.

trump watch, friday, april 14th, 2017. how does the united states get north korea off its dangerous course toward nuclear weapons, and how do we convince kim il-sung personally that he should pull off that course? the enterprise is nothing to take lightly. we get kim nervous and he could attack south korea with all his conventional fire power. we do nothing, and he keeps heading towards having deliverable nuclear weapons. what we need is a way to grab the cheese if you will without setting off the mouse trap. that will take cool nerve and experienced finesse. both are rare. a combination of those two, rarer still. the smart move may be to build an enduring alliance that the north korean leader can see will

brook no use by him of a nuclear weapon in any way whatsoever. it's not to do anything crazy ourselves as well. it's as simple as that. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. coming up next, "your business" with j.j. ramberg.

good morning. coming up on msnbc's "your business," her yarn store is a mecca but refuses to sell online. can an old school philosophy work for an old school product in the digital age? thinking of changing your business's name in branding. think how this pennsylvania golf course did it without losing customers. that plus five spending hats to make your company more profitable and efficient all coming up next on "your business".